ARCHIVE - World Trade Towers Blown Up [Archive] - Theology Forum

rapt

September 11th, 2001, 09:28 PM

Let us pray and mourn for the dead and for their families.

Let us mourn for our own sins; we know not what tomorrow may bring.

Amen. Let us stand together to call on God for His mercy, and offer our support.

Trust not in the might of the flesh for deliverance from our enemies. If our country does not repent, there's no hope in military might anyway. Every honest soul acknowledges that we are deserving of destruction for our national sins, and have been for a long time.

I am not justifying the horrendous act at all. May justice be done upon the murderers and ALL their supporters. But vengeance belongs to God and He WILL repay. We ought to realize that God may be doing just that to our country. Deut 32:11-44 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Deut+32%3A11-44&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english)

Isaiah 30
1
Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
2
That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at my mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!
That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10
Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11
Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
12
Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13
Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
14
And he shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; he shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.

15
For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
16
But ye said, No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.
25
And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every high hill, rivers and streams of waters in the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.
27
Behold, the name of the LORD cometh from far, burning with his anger, and the burden thereof is heavy: his lips are full of indignation, and his tongue as a devouring fire:
28
And his breath, as an overflowing stream, shall reach to the midst of the neck, to sift the nations with the sieve of vanity: and there shall be a bridle in the jaws of the people, causing them to err.
30
And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
33
For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.

His_saving_Grac

September 11th, 2001, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by tralon
Nuke em! Everyone of those countries dancing in the streets laughing at us.The only way to deal with an evil force is to meet it with force.
I like what General Patton said," Your not here to die for your country, but your here to see the other bastard dies for his!" I couldn't agree more.
I have done a lot of praying today. I will continue to do a lot of praying for the rest of my life too. I now pray that your post was supposed to be sarcastic and not meant as a real belief.

The dead have no country anymore. The have only death. It matters not if it is 10,000 dead Americans, Iranians, Canadians, Austrians, Columbians, Britons, Soviets, Mexicans, Africans or any other nations. They belong now to God. Their former country is meaningless to them, and our grieving should be the same no matter who they were nor where they were born.

Do not let country stand in the way of God. His people are His people reguardless of where they lived. I guarentee you Christians, Jews, Muslims, and atheists and whatever other religion you can think of all died in these attacks today. They all need the equal amount of prayers, as do their families.

10,000+ souls died in these attacks. Not 10,000 plus Americans, but 10,000+ of Gods creation died, They are not OURS they are HIS.

D__o__n

September 12th, 2001, 08:34 AM

Warning, my brethren in Christ.

Don't let this tragedy be used to further a one world government, either.

Don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with someone who does not believe that Christ is the only way to God, and don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals.

In this time of tragedy, more than anything else, realize that WE ALL NEED GOD!!!

Sealeaf

September 12th, 2001, 09:10 AM

I don''t think you need to worry about standing shoulder to shoulder with homosexuals, or working with them either, I don't believe they can do you any harm from those positions.
Matter of fact, if you can keep your pants on you should be ok.;)

Seriouly we have some real enemies. If you want to hate some one, hate them. I personally can generate some pretty intense love for a homosexual cop who died to get people out of the WTC. Homosexual EMTs are welcome to save my life too.

I think this attact has done for America what twenty years of peace could not, it has gone a long way toward healing the damage we did to ourselves in the Vietnam War. I find myself in whole hearted support of my government, even if it is headed by "W".

Projill

September 12th, 2001, 10:04 AM

If you can still focus your discontent on the people that you believe aren't like you or aren't right with your god, then we are lost indeed. Because right now we have far greater concerns than that. What's worth saving if we can't come together and support each other on this, the day after the worst terrorist attack in history? Please, whatever you do, be kind to the Arab Americans and Arabs that are your friends. I'm scared for my friend Sarah who has lived in this country her entire life and who was threatened a great deal when the Murrah Federal building was bombed...she's Muslim and her family is from the middle east.

I sat in my best friend's apartment all day yesterday, my mouth agape, over the footage I was watching on TV. Right now I can't believe it happened. It's like out of a movie. Last night when my friends and I went to IHOP after our plethora of meetings (Amnesty International, N.O.W., our gay/straight alliance, the environmental group, etc.) I could not conceive of the fact that the world trade center wasn't there anymore. And that we were sitting at IHOP, so comfortably, when there were people dying in the rubble of New York's formerly tallest landmark. Right now one of my closest female friends is unsure whether or not her ex-boyfriend is even still alive.

If you can still waste your time condemning people in the midst of all this, you are a sorry person indeed. Because, when it all comes down to it, at our most basic, we are all alike: human.

Four O'Clock

September 12th, 2001, 10:14 AM

.....if Mao Tse Tung and Chiang Kai Shaek could put their differences on hold during the 30's and 40's to defend themselves against Japan, then how difficult can it be to suspend our moral judgements against our neighbors for a time and stand together as one against this madness?.....

tralon

September 12th, 2001, 10:54 AM

This was Saving Grace's quote; "The dead have NO COUNTRY anymore. The have only death. It matters NOT if it is 10,000 dead Americans...."

It matters to me some terrorist scumbags are free in this world and rejoicing over the deaths of thousands of Americans.It matters to me when I see the happy faces of Palestine people LAUGHING and rejoicing at the trajedy that has happened in America.It matters to me that over 200 brave New York firemen and policemen gave their lives to try to save others.These were DEFENSELESS American men, women and possibly CHILDREN. Does it matter? If it doesn't matter to you, then go back to your anti American country.And if there was a war, guess what? If I were younger and could enlist, I volunteer to be in the first wave.And if you were in my way, I roll over your anti american butt with the tracks of my tank and say back, "that's for the 50,000 dead you said that didn't matter."

Projill

September 12th, 2001, 11:09 AM

Tralon, you're missing the point. The point is that all these humans, people who lived and breathed and had family and friends, people who were religionists and atheists, people who were gay, straight, bisexual, or whatever...they're no longer with us. And that is a true tragedy. It's not anti-American to say that their nationality is unimportant. It's just a fact. Their nationality is unimportant now. It doesn't matter if they were American, Mexican, Korean, Indian, or whatever. It would be just as great a tragedy to me if it were 10,000 Japanese who had died yesterday. What matters is that they are deceased and that there are people who lost someone yesterday. There are people who lost more than one loved one yesterday. What matters is that we rescue people for as long as we can. What matters is that we remain civilized and don't take out our anger over the situation on our brothers and sisters who are from the middle east and had no part in this tragedy. What matters is that we support each other and love each other and respect each other. This is a time to unite, not to divide.

His_saving_Grac

September 12th, 2001, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by D__o__n
Warning, my brethren in Christ.

Don't let this tragedy be used to further a one world government, either.

Don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with someone who does not believe that Christ is the only way to God, and don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals.

In this time of tragedy, more than anything else, realize that WE ALL NEED GOD!!! How would you ever know if you were? Do you HONESTLY believe the stereotypes on TV?

Homosexuality isn't branded on a person. Many work side by side with us, go to the bar with us, come over and eat dinner with us, and we NEVER know unless they decide to tell us.

If you can't stand shoulder to shoulder with everyone in unity against evil, then maybe you aren't standing as close to Christ as you think/presume.

His_saving_Grac

September 12th, 2001, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by tralon
This was Saving Grace's quote; "The dead have NO COUNTRY anymore. The have only death. It matters NOT if it is 10,000 dead Americans...."

It matters to me some terrorist scumbags are free in this world and rejoicing over the deaths of thousands of Americans.It matters to me when I see the happy faces of Palestine people LAUGHING and rejoicing at the trajedy that has happened in America.It matters to me that over 200 brave New York firemen and policemen gave their lives to try to save others.These were DEFENSELESS American men, women and possibly CHILDREN. Does it matter? If it doesn't matter to you, then go back to your anti American country.And if there was a war, guess what? If I were younger and could enlist, I volunteer to be in the first wave.And if you were in my way, I roll over your anti american butt with the tracks of my tank and say back, "that's for the 50,000 dead you said that didn't matter."

That's two tralon. I fought in my war. You never fought in ANYTHING. I fought for the US in Panama. I was their for 5 years prior to that. I enlisted of my own vololition. I went to Korea to protect the US. Olympians.

What have YOU done? You sit here and whine about what you WOULD do, when you KNOW you can't do it. I went out and DID it!

You are still in the first wave, tralon. You are in the first wave of racist who will condemn the innocent for the deaths of the innocent before finding out the truth. God pray you never get jury duty, or have your hands in a critical thinking situation, because you sure have shown critical thinking is NOT a strong point with you.

D__o__n

September 12th, 2001, 01:17 PM

Isn't that sweet? (tone is sarcastic for those that don't catch it)

Because I say "don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with homosexuals," y'all automatically assume that I'm full of "hatred" and that I'm "condemning" people.

Nothing is further from the truth. Except maybe y'all.

'Cause the truth is, ya ain't gettin inta heaven on your good looks. Ya ain't gettin inta heaven because you denounced the tragedy that was heaped upon us yesterday. And standing shoulder-to-shoulder with those that say YOU ain't gettin inta heaven because you don't worship their version of God, and/or giving the appearance of acceptance of evil by standing with those that openly sin, ain't gonna get ya inta heaven, either.

There is only one way into heaven, and it's being offered to you even as you read this; not by me, but by God Himself.

If I say "don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals," THAT'S what I'm railing against. Not that he/she is a homosexual, but that they're sinning in the eyes of God.

So pay attention to what I'm saying, and not what you think I'm saying based on your narrow-minded preconceived notions, or what you want me to be saying to give credence to your "everyone can get to heaven in their own way" crapola.

And don't worry; I don't hate anyone. I love them enough to tell them they're doing wrong, but I don't hate anyone. Hate is a work of the flesh, and is expressly mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 as something we should avoid.

And as for your Arab friends...I feel for them. They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy....

His_saving_Grac

September 12th, 2001, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by D__o__n
Isn't that sweet? (tone is sarcastic for those that don't catch it)

Because I say "don't ask me to stand shoulder-to-shoulder with homosexuals," y'all automatically assume that I'm full of "hatred" and that I'm "condemning" people.

Nothing is further from the truth. Except maybe y'all.

'Cause the truth is, ya ain't gettin inta heaven on your good looks. Ya ain't gettin inta heaven because you denounced the tragedy that was heaped upon us yesterday. And standing shoulder-to-shoulder with those that say YOU ain't gettin inta heaven because you don't worship their version of God, and/or giving the appearance of acceptance of evil by standing with those that openly sin, ain't gonna get ya inta heaven, either.

There is only one way into heaven, and it's being offered to you even as you read this; not by me, but by God Himself.

If I say "don't expect me to give a false impression that living a life of sin is okay by shouting "down with the terrorists!" with the homosexuals," THAT'S what I'm railing against. Not that he/she is a homosexual, but that they're sinning in the eyes of God.

So pay attention to what I'm saying, and not what you think I'm saying based on your narrow-minded preconceived notions, or what you want me to be saying to give credence to your "everyone can get to heaven in their own way" crapola.

And don't worry; I don't hate anyone. I love them enough to tell them they're doing wrong, but I don't hate anyone. Hate is a work of the flesh, and is expressly mentioned in Galatians 5:19-21 as something we should avoid.

And as for your Arab friends...I feel for them. They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy....

Noce song. I liked it in sunday school. Very inapropriate here though.

You don't hate ANYONE, yet you say "And for your arab friends..." You have tried judged and found guilty and condemned an entire race for the acts of a few. But that isn't hate. It never is to people who deny their hate.

We asked for unity. Can you HONESTLY say you have never shaken hands with a homosexual? That none of your friends are homosexual? Co-workers?

The fact is you do hate. It is of the flesh, and you allow it to rule you too. I don't really care who you stand shoulder and shoulder with as long as you DO stand shoulder to shoulder.

The "arabs" as you think, didn't do this. Certain individuals born into that race probably did. I have arab friends, and doctors, and cops, and firefighters. they are as outraged as I am. But to YOU they are all the same. The ARABS did it. Well, to those who are dancing in the street, the AMERICANS did it. Funny how you and they think the same. Don't you notice the similarities?

Those who did this will be found. They will be punished. But they are NOT an entire nation nor an entire people. Just like we have rednecks, radicals, white supremists, shristians who support, christians who reject, ....et all. Basically people who think millions of different ways on the same subject, they do too. NO RACE CAN BE GROUPED AND STEREOTYPED! To do so, lets yourself open to hate.

So you hate. Now deny it and see how much better your life can be. :eek:

tralon

September 12th, 2001, 06:49 PM

Just remember what you said. if some of your terrorists friends blow up your wife or children in a plane or building someday? See if you'll be so understanding then eh? As for being a war vet, I don't believe that either.Next, you'll tell me you commanded a crew of Apache helicopters. The real hereos are dead, while big mouths like you brag about what they never did at all.

Projill

September 12th, 2001, 06:53 PM

His_saving_Grac

September 12th, 2001, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by tralon
Just remember what you said. if some of your terrorists friends blow up your wife or children in a plane or building someday? See if you'll be so understanding then eh? As for being a war vet, I don't believe that either.Next, you'll tell me you commanded a crew of Apache helicopters. The real hereos are dead, while big mouths like you brag about what they never did at all.

I really don't care what you believe. You are someone who NEVER volunteered for ANYTHING in his entire life, but sits beside the TV and screams about the injustice in the world. You will NEVER do anything about it, just whine like a litle girl.

You disgust me. You cry about christianity, but you know nothing about it. You talk the talk, but have spent your life too cowardly to walk the walk. Shut up and do something or just shut up.

surreal

September 12th, 2001, 09:53 PM

I wrote this in about 20 minutes for honors English today because we had to write about the recent tragedies. I dunno if anyone will find meaning in it, but it really does mean something.

You'll probably notice I did a little BS in there and some 'story-esque' stuff because heck, everyone needs a good grade :)

--------

Tuesday morning I woke up and the clock said 6:07. I wake up around that time every day but when I went to get my towel so I could take a shower my mom said something along the lines about watching the news for a minute. I dropped the towel and went downstairs, still not quite awake. I looked at the colorful rectangle that is the screen of our television and saw the 767 fly into the exterior wall of the World Trade Center. I didn’t immediately recognize how horrific this event was. The first thing that shook me was that the world had just changed. Terrorists had showed up our entire government using public transportation. Things like this happen every day in movies and on television and in our minds. They aren’t supposed to happen in real life.
So there goes reality. I almost missed the bus because I was watching the news, waiting for a number like everyone else. On the bus ride to school I was hit with how every news station was spitting out numbers, and I thought how that was all we had left. It is much easier to take things quantitatively that qualitatively, because numbers seem so solid, but so abstract at the same time. If I told you your mother died it is much harder than telling you that one person died. The public wanted numbers, not names. Except the ones who knew they were going to suffer for the answers. The politicians said that terrorists are trying to create chaos. I learned in a very real way for the first time on Tuesday that nothing is perfect.
The politicians are trying to declare war. People aren’t the problem it is the concept of terrorism that is the problem. How do you declare war against an idea? How do you defeat an idea? The only way to crush one idea is with another. You can’t physically attack an idea. You can attack the people who started it, but the idea won’t go away. When I first read this bit of philosophy I thought, “Right. So we need an idea to stop terrorism.” The problem with that is, it is actually the other way around. Terrorism is an idea to stop establishment, a solution for something that doesn’t seem like a problem in the first place. Problems are relative.
The problem for the terrorists could have been a lot of things. It could be establishment, religion, capitalism, or retaliation for past occurrences. The list goes on. For the U.S. the problem is the terrorists, the concept of terrorism, the attacks on innocent civilians, the list extends further here too. What seems almost comical about it is that after all this time we’re still following Hammurabi’s code. We still think an eye for an eye is the best way. Shakespeare once said, “The rarer action lies in virtue not in vengeance.” In principal everyone agrees that it is best to forgive and forget. No one is going to forget where they were when they found out the World Trade Center went down. I was waking up. It was 6:07.

----------

His_saving_Grac

September 12th, 2001, 10:10 PM

An excellent paper. And very true. Don't worry about the need for adding the feelings in there. It makes it come to life. And you are very right about the numbers. The names strike to hard, too fast. They will come, and they will come the day these sick individuals who planned this see God. And they will feel the pain 1000 fold that each of the dead felt, for each of the dead.

D__o__n

September 13th, 2001, 07:32 AM

You're a very funny person, Saving Grace. You also have a reading comprehension problem.

Someone mentioned, in a post previous to mine, that they have Arab friends who are being persecuted.

Now, let's look at your reading comprehension problem. You picked out "your arab friends..." Let's look at the next four words: I feel for them.

WHOOPS. That was a statement of hatred, wasn't it?

How about the wording I used next? They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy....

I suggest, Saving Grace, you get off your moral high horse and learn to read. Oh, and while you're at it: Learn the difference between "judging" and "condemning."

Have I shaken hands with homosexuals? Worked with them? You betcha. And while I was shaking hands, and smiling, and being friendly, I told them that God didn't like what they were doing, that He wanted them in heaven with him, but that they were going to have to accept Christ as their savior and repent first.

How about you? You man enough to tell people when they're sinning? Or do you promote "there are many different roads to God"?

His_saving_Grac

September 13th, 2001, 06:43 PM

Lets see. You said Let's look at the next four words: I feel for them. But not until AFTER you said Isn't that sweet? (tone is sarcastic for those that don't catch it) Now please tell me when you decided that you were no longer sarcastic? Because the majority of your post WAS sarcastic, and I had to take THAT as sarcastic too. Remember, feeling change the meanings of sentences, and feelings do NOT come across in the written word unless you STATE your feelings. You stated sarcasm. You never stated you were done using it.

I suggest, Saving Grace, you get off your moral high horse and learn to read. Oh, and while you're at it: Learn the difference between "judging" and "condemning."
I know the difference. Most christians don't or when they think they do, they use the term "judging righteously!" as if God gave them special knowledge in judging.

And you are doing this judging yourself since my post WASN'T an attack on you. I never put you down.

Have I shaken hands with homosexuals? Worked with them? You betcha. And while I was shaking hands, and smiling, and being friendly, I told them that God didn't like what they were doing, that He wanted them in heaven with him, but that they were going to have to accept Christ as their savior and repent first. That's wonderful :) . But my question was about those you DON'T know about? Are you saying you know the sexual preferences of EVERY person you have ever come in contact with?

Again, my point was to stand together in unison against those who attacked and killed these people from a cowardly position. I never asked you more.

How about you? You man enough to tell people when they're sinning? Or do you promote "there are many different roads to God"? You really don't know me. I post in many boards. I am called the "bleacher preacher" in one baseball forum because of my use of scripture and telling people when they are acting in an unchristian manner. And if or when you see more of my posts here, you will see I do the same. I am no where near perfect, and I know I have my faults. But one of them usually isn't belittling someone (except when someone calls me on my military background and insults like tralon. To the rest I appologise for having to read what I said to him)

All I said about you was you hate. This response of yours was full of anger and anger leads to hate. All I ASKED you to do was So you hate. Now deny it and see how much better your life can be.:eek: That wasn't a belittling remark, it was showing that you do hate, just as all of us do. That is part of being human and not being Gods. We have emotions and they sometimes rule us. This was a request to try (just as we all try ) to deny that feeling.

surreal

September 13th, 2001, 06:49 PM

The problem is that you refuse to see any other way to God, or even to see that maybe there is no path to God at all. Until you are willing to accept others may think differently, there is no point in you discussing anything on these forums. If you can't even understand how someone would dissagree with you or accept that you might be wrong, you won't discuss anything, just randomly shout out your opinions. That won't change anyone's minds, just affirm your self-righteousness.

His_saving_Grac

September 13th, 2001, 07:02 PM

Just wondering who your post is directed at. You didn't state towards whom.

If it was for me, that's not true about how I am. I sit here and read much more than I post. I see all sides of the issues. There are many many topics here I have read that I haven't formed any conclusions on them, as those who DO know are still talking their sides, and I have alot to learn.

But of course we all have our opinions. And this forum is a perfect place to post those opinions, many of which get shot down.

The problem is many do love to shoot down the opinion with personal attacks. That hurts. It should be discussed instead, but too many don't like to do that.

Anyway, I pray you are having a good day and you and yours are blessed by His light.:)

rapt

September 13th, 2001, 11:40 PM

Matt 5:43
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Luke 6:24
But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
25
Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.
26
Woe unto you, when all men shall speak well of you! for so did their fathers to the false prophets.
27
But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
28
Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you.
29
And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
30
Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
31
And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.
32
For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them.
33
And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.
34
And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again.
35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
36
Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven

Does "judge not" only apply to those who want to judge YOU? Look at the context here! Jesus is OBVIOUSLY talking about judging and condemning those that you don't really want to forgive, isn't He?

46
And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47
Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49
But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

IS JESUS REALLY OUR LORD, OR NOT? WHAT DO WE REALLY TRUST, ANYWAY? The Lord, or our own strength? (We often hear preachers say "you can't do 'it' in your own strength". Is "it" only applicable to walking obediently in some things, or is it applicable to everything we do?

John 18
36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If Jesus wouldn't let His servants defend HIM with carnal weapons of war (sword, gun, bomb, napalm), how much less worthy is a mere worldly nation of the sacrifice of our bodies? Shall we kill our enemies seeking to secure an earthly nation, and think we are doing God a service? Do we seek a "continuing city" on this earth?

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Heb 11:8
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.
10
For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13
These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.
14
For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
15
If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
16
But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.

Abraham knew the true inheritance is not of this world.

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

2 Corinthians 10
3
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ

Matthew 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

Remember the Crusades? They thought THEY were doing God a service, didn't they? Don't we see their works as those of madmen today? Indeed they were. Let us learn from them, and not repeat such madness.

Can one love his enemy and KILL him?

Was Jesus a "gutless pacifist"?

I think not.

Were all the martyrs of Jesus throughout the history of the world, who refused to resist their murderers "gutless pacifists"?

They were TRUE Christians.

D__o__n

September 14th, 2001, 09:05 AM

Reading comprehension problem still applies, Saving Grace.

I do not hate anyone. You don't believe that; you don't have to. Like you said, I don't know you; and you don't know me.

If you did, you'd know that I profess "righteous judgement"...but not to the tune of Enyart and his crowd.

(For those that are just now figuring it out, yes, I'm that "Don" from some time back, that ticked off a LOT of people...figure that means I'll be banned from this board sometime over the next few days....)

Saving Grace, your explanation proves the problem with reading comprehension. I suggest that in the future, you read my words for what they say, not what you *think* they're saying. In other words, read them twice.

Let me simplify one thing for you: We are to judge. In this phrase, Mr. Enyart is correct. However, we are NOT to judge to condemnation (i.e., we are not to condemn). But each time we determine that something is sinful, we have "judged." Each time we tell someone that what they're doing is wrong, we have "judged." And we are supposed to do that!

What we have to teach people is that the admonition to "judge not" is speaking about hypocrisy.

Saving Grace, look at my last few lines again: "They're in danger right now from intellectually-challenged redneck dweebs who see only their nationality, and don't care whether they were involved with or supported the tragedy...." That should have put my statement "and as for your arab friends...I feel for them" in context. But you prefer to place the blame on me, and insist that I "hate."

Should I now make the claim that you "hate" me because of your perception that I'm a "hater"? If I do, I'm using the same criteria that you've used: casual glancing over of your posts, and the way you're railing against me.

There was no hatred in my post AT ALL. Lots of sarcasm, yes, but compare it to Maranatha's posts, where he apparently endorses nuking the entire Middle East.

I do not hate anyone, Saving Grace. You don't believe that; and you don't have to. I've said it. Based on what you say about not being able to tell anything about anyone because we're in "print media," you either have to take it at face value, or prove otherwise.

D__o__n

September 14th, 2001, 09:25 AM

Surreal, you are SO wrong. During my lifetime, I've been a Methodist, a Mormon, an agnostic, and I even delved into karma for a while. And that's just a few of the explorations I've done.

I've explored other paths, and whether there's a god or not.

THERE IS! AND THERE'S ONLY 1 WAY TO HIM!

Jesus Christ said, I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

He didn't say "there are many paths, and it doesn't matter which one you take." He didn't say, "Feel free to do whatever YOU think is necessary to get into heaven."

There is only 1 way. There is only 1 truth. There is only 1 life. And they are all three the same path.

Just something for you to think about. The next time you want to say we don't understand the other point(s) of view, consider that you didn't ask if we understood the other point of view (i.e., you committed the same error you accused us of).

His_saving_Grac

September 14th, 2001, 01:29 PM

Reading comprehension problem still applies, Saving Grace.

Yes it does Don. It appears you are still reading that my posts were an attack on YOU. So let me say it as clearly as I can. I am NOT attacking DON the PERSON whatever his/her real name is!

No if you are talking about MY reading comprehension, since you are having problems with others understanding you, maybe it is writing comprehension that is the problem right now? Are you open to that possibility? That is NOT an attack, but an observation.

If you did, you'd know that I profess "righteous judgement"...but not to the tune of Enyart and his crowd. Neither do I

(For those that are just now figuring it out, yes, I'm that "Don" from some time back, that ticked off a LOT of people...figure that means I'll be banned from this board sometime over the next few days....) I saw many others get banned after you (I would assume, because I didn't see you get banned but I did see their posts say they were banned). For some reason, just before they get banned, they get called "zadig". I have no idea what the moderators mean by that as I do not find that name in the bible.

Saving Grace, your explanation proves the problem with reading comprehension. I suggest that in the future, you read my words for what they say, not what you *think* they're saying. In other words, read them twice. No, actually it doesn't prove that. All it proves is you believe we have a misunderstnding and that you assume it is all on my part and the part of others, and not on the WAY you are presenting your case. As far as reading what one "thinks" someone is saying, aren't you doing the same thing to me?

Let me simplify one thing for you: We are to judge That is very simple for you to say. It is NOT simple for you to prove. The only places that appears is in letters to CHURCH LEADERS by Paul to his churches while he was out or in jail. Thye were NOT directed to each and every person in the populace. In fact, until the scripture became available to all, only the church was allowed to judge, and everything they said was "righteous" even when they had the inqusition, the holy wars, the witchhunts, when they had Gallileo arrested, when Copernicus was so afraid that he only stated that the earth revolved around the sun when he was already dying because the church "righteously judged" that anyone claiming that the Earth revolved around the sun was a heretic. Do you need more examples of how great we are at "judging righteously" or even judging correctly? I will leave it to the only one who can actually see all and knows all.

What we have to teach people is that the admonition to "judge not" is speaking about hypocrisy. To be a hypocrate is to be a greek actor. That is what a hypocrate was. There is no proof that THAT is what it means. Take the book at face value and not at what you "think" it means just like you admonished me in the first sentence. If I have so much trouble understanding what YOU are saying (and everyone else is too) then how much harder is it for any of us to decide what JESUS said. He never told us to judge. Paul did. Jesus said "only he who sent me can judge" I don't think that was you lol :D

the way you're railing against me. I'm very sure I made that clear that I wasn't. Again, it's that read the words and not what you think is in the words. My words have stated, now for the third time, I am NOT ATTACKING YOU. :(

Lots of sarcasm, yes As you admit there was lot's of sarcasm. My question was when did you stop using the sarcasm. You never stated you were done using it, so I read it the way it was presented,"note the sarcasm". Remember sating that? That is why I took your entire post to be sarcastic. I explained why. Now please explain why you want it to seem I am attacking you?

I do not hate anyone, Saving Grace Never said you did. I said you hate. There are many things to hate. I hate the cowardness of this attack. I HATE.I have to try and deny that hate and make it make me stronger in my love. You hate the idea of homosexuality. I am sure there are other things, ideals you hate. It is human. But I didn't say you hate a pearson, just that you hate. To deny that would be to try and place yourself on a higher level than God, since he too has stated his hate.

Anyway that was my statement.

Again, I pray for all those who have suffered from thsi tragedy and those who will suffer in the reprecussions to come. I pray you understand I am not attacking you. I pray that I will understand you. I finish my prayer asking for the largest understanding of all in understanding the Lord and what He wants from me. Amen.

D__o__n

September 14th, 2001, 01:49 PM

In a LOT of ways, we're too much alike.

The ONLY thing I will address is your statement that we are only told by Paul to judge. I disagree. John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.

Jesus said that. Why? Because He was telling the Pharisees that they were wrong for telling Him not to do anything on the sabbath. They were judging according to the appearance, and not judging what was actually being done.

In Matthew 7, where we are told to "judge not," we are NOT being told to not judge. The phrasing goes like this: "judge not lest ye be judged; for by what measure ye judge, the same shall be meted out." A warning against hypocrisy, pure and simple. The explanation is, don't condemn your neighbor for breaking one of the 600-odd laws when you're breaking about 37 of them yourself.

So the question really comes down to: Did Jesus tell us not to judge, or did He tell us to judge? One must reconcile these two passages, and figure how they agree; otherwise, one must conclude that God is contradicting Himself, and is therefore an author of confusion.

Care to start a new thread? Or e-mail me so we can discuss this further?

Amadis

September 14th, 2001, 02:10 PM

The Christian INDIVIDUAL's response to the WTC atrocity is to pray for those who did it (those still alive), that they might be won to Christ's gospel and God's love; to forgive those who sincerely seek forgiveness, and to take prudent but nonviolent measures to protect oneself from future physical danger.

The Christian NATION's response (or the response of any nation) should be to rain a hellstorm of fire and death and destruction and pain and horror and unimaginable suffering on anyone connected with the atrocity. To obliterate participants and accessories before and after the fact, and to blast away with skin-flaying force, mercilessly -- for years and years if need be -- at those who might have anything to do with terrorism, either as an individual or as a nation. To reduce to a paste of blood and ash any military or paramilitary structure or body of men that set their faces against us.

Zakath

September 14th, 2001, 03:48 PM

Amadis,

Eloquent piece, as usual.

One question bothers me after reading it though...

If a nation is to rain hellish punishment upon the perpetrators of such acts and the Christians are not, who gets the task of reducing the enemy into "a paste of blood and ash"?

Do you envision that activity reserved for us non-believers only, or can you Christians participate as well?

Nihilo

September 14th, 2001, 04:07 PM

The American Commercial Airline Industry is currently the single greatest threat to the Nation's Security. That must be properly dealt with so that it is no longer true.

We are at war, whether it is against a state, or an individual. The rules of the game have changed. Although we may be the best at the old rules (Cold war, desert storm), there doesn't seem to be anybody playing that way anymore. New rules means we need to learn them and become proficient at them, soon.

I think issuing knives to all airline passengers is better than forbidding them, personally. Just try to hijack a plane with anywhere from 50-150 angry, knife-wielding passengers on board, each willing to die for the cause of bringing the plane down in an unhabited area rather than a skyscraper!

It's probably not likely that hijacking a passenger airliner and ramming it into buildings is going to work anymore. People no longer naively believe that hijackers are content to take over the plane and ransom the passengers, so they will revolt, and sacrifice themselves. Unfortunately, these "soldiers" will probably continue to try until it definitely doesn't work! (After Tuesday's tremendous success, would you be disheartened if you were one of these Islamic radicals?)

His_saving_Grac

September 14th, 2001, 04:28 PM

Jesus said that. Why? Because He was telling the Pharisees that they were wrong for telling Him not to do anything on the sabbath I think you know this, but some may not so I will say it for them. The pharisees were the law holders. They were part of the clergy, the "doctors" of the Jewish Law. The scribes were the "lawyers" of the law. That is who is being told how to "judge".

Jesus got very upset a lot at the steadfast holding to the letter of the law instead of the spirit of the law, which is what the "doctors" and "lawyers" of the law of Moses were supposed to be in charge of.

So in effect, he still isn't talking to us but to the church heirarchy that was in place at the temple. We also should try to judge rightly (not righteously), which in effect, would curb our condemnation of many things.

Care to start a new thread? Or e-mail me so we can discuss this further I would love for this to be a thread that we could talk about without the hate and anger, but I doubt that would happen given the beliefs of the moderators here. Too many individuals have trouble getting rid of their hates and discussing something as important as thiswithout pulling up Pauls preaching and showing why we should hate, judge and attack what we disagree with, and the individuals involved. I have already seen one such thread started in the old forum and the temp forum. Both had the moderators in there quoting Paul and Bob Enyart and getting upset with any that disagreed. That is where I saw a few people banned.

So I leave the choice up to you. It you DO start a new thread, please post here as I don't get a lot of time to read ALL the topics, so I may miss it if few people respond and it doesn't make it to the new posts area when I do get on.

Bless you again.

His_saving_Grac

September 14th, 2001, 04:40 PM

Originally posted by Amadis
The Christian INDIVIDUAL's response to the WTC atrocity is to pray for those who did it (those still alive), that they might be won to Christ's gospel and God's love; to forgive those who sincerely seek forgiveness, and to take prudent but nonviolent measures to protect oneself from future physical danger.

The Christian NATION's response (or the response of any nation) should be to rain a hellstorm of fire and death and destruction and pain and horror and unimaginable suffering on anyone connected with the atrocity. To obliterate participants and accessories before and after the fact, and to blast away with skin-flaying force, mercilessly -- for years and years if need be -- at those who might have anything to do with terrorism, either as an individual or as a nation. To reduce to a paste of blood and ash any military or paramilitary structure or body of men that set their faces against us.

I am confused now. Where is the Christian nation? Isn't it made up of Christian individuals where ever it is? So how can it do opposites? Or should they pray for them as they are dropping hellfire on thier heads?

Should we warn them so the innocents can leave first? Or do we kill the innocents with their leaders? Do we KNOW for a fact that not one christian is living there so we won't be doing the same as they did to us?

I noticed your last line. Any military or paramilitary structure or body of men (and women too I presume) that set their faces against us .

Hmmmm so if they don't like the way we did something, blow them away too?

I am glad I am a christian individual, but I am even MORE happy I am not a citizen of this christian nation you mention. I don't think I could stand to look at a person suffering the agonies you have described, and because I couldn't watch from up close an personal, then I couldn't order that done either. I am a firm believer of "If I won't do it myself, I sure won't order someone else to do it."

should be to rain a hellstorm of fire and death and destruction and pain and horror and unimaginable suffering on anyone connected with the atrocity. To obliterate participants and accessories before and after the fact, and to blast away with skin-flaying force, mercilessly -- for years and years if need be -- at those who might have anything to do with terrorism, either as an individual or as a nation. To reduce to a paste of blood and ash
Could you HONESTLY say you could stand there and WATCH them feel this to MIILIONS of individuals? If YOU can't then YOU shouldn't ask for it. If you CAN, then you missed your calling. They needed you in Germany from 1930-1945.

D__o__n

September 14th, 2001, 07:52 PM

Ah, but Saving Grace, that was just the point that I brought up oh-so-long ago.

Paul's preaching does NOT condone hating, or even condemning. Don't even get me started with that blatant misuse of Romans 12:9. Paul's preaching, just as Christ's, does say we should stand up for those things that are right and good in God's eyes (something I know you agree with).

In fact, Paul was taught by Christ, so therefore what Christ taught, is just as applicable as what Paul taught.

The further error usually involved with that is that Paul taught, in nearly all cases, exactly what Peter, James, and John taught.

Now, as for your "judge rightly rather than judge righteously" statement: I humbly submit to you that if we are judging righteously, then we will be judging rightly.

And don't get me started on the misuse of that "judge rightly" thing, either, cause Jesus did NOT praise a man for judging rightly....

surreal

September 14th, 2001, 10:53 PM

I lost track of this post. Thanks for your replies, no the post was directed at D__o__n.

I could direct my accusation at myself actually. Will I accept any other way? Why do you think I am on these forums? I read these posts and see what I think. For example, Bob is finally getting to me with his anti-evolutionist stuff. I still believe in parts of it but I see a point in his "that is a lot of just-by-chance" stuff. I don't have a lot of faith in chance actually... so it is starting to get to me :)

Anyway, seeing as there is no God in what you call "karma" which isn't a religion anyway... I think you are looking for Buddhism but I'm not sure since there is more than one way of life reflecting the existence of karma.

My problem is when people say "Well you are wrong because God said so." You can't argue with someone who tells you that every time you make a valid point you are wrong, because God says so. Logic cannot defend itself against "Goddidit" arguments because the people so blindly believe in God that they won't even accept that logic works here. I am willing to explore other points of view. If you say "God exists" I don't bluntly say "No he doesn't" and not even leave room for further argument. See, it stops there. Here:

I've explored other paths, and whether there's a god or not.

THERE IS! AND THERE'S ONLY 1 WAY TO HIM!

See? That isn't logical. There is no way to argue with that. If he (you) can't even try to prove it to yourself or listen, there can be no discussion. There is no point in you being here if you have already decided there is only 1 way and you aren't willing to even consider a change.

His_saving_Grac

September 14th, 2001, 10:55 PM

Paul's preaching does NOT condone hating, or even condemning No, but it IS the one most used by those who condone "judging and judging righteously" I notice that the moderators are the only ones who really know what righteous judgement is, and everyone who disagrees is judging, but not righteously. THAT makes me laugh.

Paul's preaching, just as Christ's, does say we should stand up for those things that are right and good in God's eyes (something I know you agree with). Yup, I do.

In fact, Paul was taught by Christ, so therefore what Christ taught, is just as applicable as what Paul taught. Well HE says he was. And so far only 6 of the letters attributed to Paul (of 14) are actually authentic.
I, personally, am not sure about it since there are three different versions of the appearance of Jesus and what happened next to him or his followers. But I am looking for reasons to lose that mistrust.

The further error usually involved with that is that Paul taught, in nearly all cases, exactly what Peter, James, and John taught. Not really. James actually started the Nazareen church. He was James the Just (or James the lessor). The Nazorite teachings were claimed to be heretical, as were the teachings of Thomas. The story of Andrew, Peter and Paul actually is quite different if you read Barnabas (who actually travelled with Paul for most of his life and wrote down his actions as it happened.) Again, the Book of Barnabas wasn't accepted because the church felt it was contrary to what they were presenting. So it was deemed apocolyptic.

And don't get me started on the misuse of that "judge rightly" thing, either, cause Jesus did NOT praise a man for judging rightly.... Yup. I agree. Shhhhh the moderators are watching lol.

rapt

September 15th, 2001, 01:56 AM

Saving grace: >>To be a hypocrate is to be a greek actor. That is what a hypocrate was.<<

It's no wonder you can't understand Don if that's the depth of your understanding of the word hypocrit.

Saving grace: >>He (Jesus) never told us to judge. Paul did. Jesus said "only he who sent me can judge" I don't think that was you lol <<

Jesus told the Saducees: "Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures."

John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Luke 12:57 Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?

Jesus was only repeating the same thing Moses taught:

Leviticus 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

Deuteronomy 25:1 If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

The word "judge" doesn't have to appear within the text in order for us to understand our responsibility to do so, such as is the case in:

5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

(to "see clearly" is clearly "judging")

6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

(One must excersize just "judgment" to discern who a dog or a swine is)

15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

(Who without just judgment can know who is a false prophet and who is a sheep? "Ye shall know them" is a clear indication that we should excercise just judgment based on thier deeds and words compared to the commandments of the Word of God)

Isn't it ironic that the above scriptures all appear in the same chapter that begins like this:

1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

It is so utterly SHALLOW to read one verse of a chapter and run with it as if one knows what is being said. Context, context, context, or else one will be smugly content with a pretext. Let us practice proper exegesis, which is based on context and other like scriptures, rather than eisegesis resulting from the neglect of both. Adding to or taking from the true meaning of a text is no light matter. (Rev 22:18,19 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Rev+22%3A18%2C19&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english)) Remember the man who tried to stabilize the ark of the covenant when it was in route, but whom God struck dead because he didn't honor the proper way to transport it? (2Sam 6:5-7 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=2SAM+6:5-7&language=english&version=KJV&showfn=off))

The entire chapter (Mat 7) is clearly saying not to judge unrighteously, but righteously. It is clearly not saying to forsake judgment altogether, as so many shallow and unread believers suppose.

2
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest (judgest) not the beam that is in thine own eye?

"If we will JUDGE OURSELVES, we should not be judged", says Paul (1Cor 11:31). Paul's gospel is NO DIFFERENT THAN CHRIST'S GOSPEL.

Zakath

September 15th, 2001, 08:28 AM

With all this judgement scripture flying around, don't forget Paul's instruction, the one that is most applicable for you religionists...

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you.'" - I Cor. 5:12-13

If the apostle Paul says it wasn't any of his business, why do so many Christians today try to make judgements of those outside their religion their business?

surreal

September 15th, 2001, 08:58 AM

That was a good quote and good timing for this situation.

The problem is, the bible contradicts itself so much they can just quote it a hundred more times saying the exact opposite.

Zakath

September 15th, 2001, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by surreal
The problem is, the bible contradicts itself so much they can just quote it a hundred more times saying the exact opposite.

One of several reasons I am not a Christian...

Nazirite

September 15th, 2001, 10:38 AM

rapt,

Judge not.

D__o__n

September 15th, 2001, 03:14 PM

Surreal first.

I now accuse you of reading comprehension problems.

(However, based on Saving Grace's argument, if more than one person is having the same problem, then the problem is more than likely with me)

Did I not say that I already explored many points of view? Many paths?

The implication is that I've already tested the theories, and found an answer.

What you're asking me to do, by insisting that I consider alternative points of view, is to re-visit areas where I've already been.

That, my friend, is illogical. It's like saying, "we've already discovered uranium; but hey, let's discover it again."

And the fact that Mr. Enyart is convincing you of the illogicality (is that a word?) of some of the paths that you've already taken--thereby re-inforcing the argument and path I've presented to you--should tell you something....

D__o__n

September 15th, 2001, 03:19 PM

Now Zakath and Surreal:

ERROR! ERROR! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!!!

The so-called "contradiction" you presented with 1 Cor 5:12 is easily answered by LEARNING HOW TO READ.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Wow. Taken in FULL CONTEXT (apparently something you are either reluctant to do, or were never taught to do), this passage tells Christians they are not to have anything to do with fornicators, or the covetous, or extortioners, etc., etc.

But gee whiz, **** Tracy--how do I know who's a fornicator, or covetous, or an extortioner?

(slapping head) By golly, that's right--by judging! (i.e., discerning)

I told Saving Grace that he needed to learn the difference between "judging" and "condemning"; I was wrong. YOU TWO do....

D__o__n

September 15th, 2001, 03:27 PM

Saving Grace:

But I am looking for reasons to lose that mistrust.

I'll give you just one: Faith.

And if that ain't enough--then there's nothing that will help you.

The further error usually involved with that is that Paul taught, in nearly all cases, exactly what Peter, James, and John taught.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not really.

Well, how about I explain my position then? I accept the (commonly accepted as we find it today) Bible as the inspired Word of God. I accept it as verbal plenary and conceptually inspired.

Based on that, I look at the writings of James, and Peter, and John (in the commonly accepted as we find it today writings), and find that the teachings, while not word-for-word, are echoed by Paul.

Hope that explains it a little more.

rapt

September 15th, 2001, 04:43 PM

Acts 7:22
And Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians, and was mighty in words and in deeds.
23
And when he was full forty years old, it came into his heart to visit his brethren the children of Israel.
24
And seeing one of them suffer wrong, he defended him, and avenged him that was oppressed, and smote the Egyptian:
25
For he supposed his brethren would have understood how that God by his hand would deliver them: but they understood not.
26
And the next day he shewed himself unto them as they strove, and would have set them at one again, saying, Sirs, ye are brethren; why do ye wrong one to another?
27
But he that did his neighbour wrong thrust him away, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge over us?
28
Wilt thou kill me, as thou diddest the Egyptian yesterday?

The guilty will alway cry "Judge not! Judge not!"

rapt

September 15th, 2001, 04:56 PM

God knows who comes to a forum such as this and why, whether to seek Him or to scoff at Him and his word, or to exalt themselves as judges while hollering "judge not" to Christians, who they suppose have no right to judge them.

The fact remains (unbeliever or believer; God respects no one's person), that God IS the Judge, and He will INDEED judge those that reject His word, whether they want to believe that or not.

Acts 13:40
Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I can certainly judge THAT to be true.

Zakath

September 15th, 2001, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by D__o__n
Now Zakath and Surreal:

ERROR! ERROR! DANGER, WILL ROBINSON!!!

The so-called "contradiction" you presented with 1 Cor 5:12 is easily answered by LEARNING HOW TO READ.

I never implied it was any kind of biblical contradiction. If there is a contradiction it is in the behavior of Christians who won't follow Paul's direction. All I wanted to indicate was that even Paul wouldn't judge outsiders while you Christians seem quite willing to try, judge and condemn them all in the same post.

Wow. Taken in FULL CONTEXT (apparently something you are either reluctant to do, or were never taught to do), this passage tells Christians they are not to have anything to do with fornicators, or the covetous, or extortioners, etc., etc.

Shucky durn, give thet boy a gold star!!! He shore kin read them thar scripturz...

We'd better also give him a tourniquet since he just shot himself in the foot... :rolleyes:

The context of Paul's comments, Don, is discussing those in the church. His comments about judgementalism are to be limited to those inside the Christian fellowship, not those outside.

rapt

September 15th, 2001, 06:13 PM

So you think Paul didn't judge "them that are without" when they came to pervert the truth with their lies?

Think again.

So they (Paul and Barnabas), being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
5
And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister.
6
And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name was Barjesus:
7
Which was with the deputy of the country, Sergius Paulus, a prudent man; who called for Barnabas and Saul, and desired to hear the word of God.
8
But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.
9
Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.
10
And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11
And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
12
Then the deputy, when he saw what was done, believed, being astonished at the doctrine of the Lord.

Beware lest ye be found to fight against God as well, o ye devils that despise His Word.

Zakath

September 15th, 2001, 06:28 PM

Originally posted by rapt
]So you think Paul didn't judge "them that are without" when they came to pervert the truth with their lies?

Think again.

Beware lest ye be found to fight against God as well, o ye devils that despise His Word.

Slow down, laddie! All I did was quote from your Bible, I didn't write it. If you don't like it, take it up with the translators. :rolleyes:

I don't despise any man's scripture nearly so much as I despise hypocritical fundamentalists who misuse it to butcher innocents and bind humans with fear.

Before you threaten anyone claiming to speak for your god, let's try a little test Rapt, to see if he cares as much as you seem to think he does...

Step right up. Which one of you slaves of YHWH is going to be the first to curse this no-good, filthy, blaspheming atheist blind by the power of their god? Will it be you, Rapt? Someone else??? Give it your best shot. :D

(Note - it's been tried before without effect.)

PENIEL

September 15th, 2001, 06:42 PM

Lam 2:21 The young and the old lie on the ground in the streets:

my virgins and my young men are fallen .

Lam 2:22 Thou hast called as in a solemn day my terrors round

about, none escaped nor remained:

those that I have swaddled and brought up hath mine

enemy consumed.

:(

Amadis

September 15th, 2001, 09:45 PM

Any Western nation's government -- whether putatively Christian or not -- is likely to be made up of at least a smattering of Christians. It is not at all incongruous that they should participate in the legitimate functions of government, one of which is to punish unto death those who perpetrate violent evil.

I have no problem envisioning a thoroughly Christian hangman, in other words -- a man who would never in a million years take the life of another person on his own, but who would perform his duties of execution with the clear conscience of a man who sees clearly the distinction between the state's responsibilities, and the individual's. If I may serve as a juror, then I may serve as a commando, both being (within their respective spheres) necessary roles in a government that seeks to follow God's directives on flailing wrongdoers.

Many Christians took part in the bombing of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in World War II, and fought hand to hand with the enemies of their country. These were sincere believers who realized that the call of the government on that occasion was justified, and that Caesar needed to be accorded what was legitimately his. CS Lewis makes the point, however, that a Christian airman in the Second World War would have been called upon by his convictions to refuse to bomb purely civilian targets. Bombing fascist soldiers would have been an act designed to restore peace to the world, while decimating civilians would have been merely cruel.

His_saving_Grac

September 15th, 2001, 09:58 PM

Originally posted by rapt
[B]Saving grace: >>To be a hypocrate is to be a greek actor. That is what a hypocrate was.<<

It's no wonder you can't understand Don if that's the depth of your understanding of the word hypocrit.

It's no wonder you don't understand me when I wrote what the origin of the word is. What the CHURCH says it is now means nothing to me. It is a blatently overuse cliche by anyone as a defense for their religion and for personal attacks on any who disagrees.

I will ignore your scriptural quotes just as you ignore the 40-50 times Jesus himself told us not to judge. You are an Enyart follower, and their is no repentance in those who follow his ways. You choose to blind yourself. I choose to see.

His_saving_Grac

September 15th, 2001, 10:03 PM

Originally posted by Zakath
With all this judgement scripture flying around, don't forget Paul's instruction, the one that is most applicable for you religionists...

- I Cor. 5:12-13

If the apostle Paul says it wasn't any of his business, why do so many Christians today try to make judgements of those outside their religion their business?

I know. Almost enough to turn a christian into an atheist because at least most atheists choose to follow a personal creed that doesn't injure or kill others unlike the majority of those who want to claim christianity as their religion of choice.

His_saving_Grac

September 15th, 2001, 10:35 PM

Originally posted by D__o__n
Saving Grace:

I'll give you just one: Faith.

And if that ain't enough--then there's nothing that will help you.

Well, how about I explain my position then? I accept the (commonly accepted as we find it today) Bible as the inspired Word of God. I accept it as verbal plenary and conceptually inspired.

Based on that, I look at the writings of James, and Peter, and John (in the commonly accepted as we find it today writings), and find that the teachings, while not word-for-word, are echoed by Paul.

Hope that explains it a little more.

Faith huh? Well that is what I have been using my entire life. It's when someone wants to throw scripture around that I lose my faith. Especially when that scripture goes against my morals.

I will explain my position. I know that the New Testement as we read it is different than what was written in the 4th century. I know that the Authors of the Gospels were NONE of the Apostles of those names chosen by Jesus. I know 8 of 14 books attributed to Paul were written by unknown people. I know the book of Revelations wasn't canonized ontil the 16th century. I know the 2nd book of Peter wasn't written by Peter the Apostle. I know that Moses DID NOT write the first 5 books of the bible as we were taught. I know the was NO coat of many colors (It said a red robe) I know that many books taught all over in early churches were banned by later churches, so it was devine, then it wasn't devine, then it was, then it wasn't. I know that when you read about the apostles quoting "scripture" as in "the scripture says..." they are NOT talking about the New Testement because IT WASN'T WRITTEN. So I know that the infallibility of the bible according to scripture does NOT include the New Testement as scripture since it didn't exist.

So what IS echoed? Well re-written books, that were carefully edited over the centuries and the proof of that is held in two major hands available for all to see. Books that were accepted as devine, then voted as not devine. A completely new ending to the book of Mark after chapter 16:8 (which is where the book ends originally.

And I see people with preconceptions quoting scripture and context in 20 different ways and all condemning the other to Hellfire and brimstone for NOT believing THEM above all others.

I also see atheists come to this forum and laugh at christians for acting like ignorant children throwing fits over what they "know" while they really "know" nothing, only God does. I see atheist come here and leave saying, "I am SSSOOOOO glad I am not a christian!"

And I see people who swear they have tried all forms of religion deny wanting to read the bible as it was written and taught in the 4th century, or the Jewish Torah from which we got our Old Testement, or the other so called 'apocryphal' books the Roman church decided wasn't good enough for teaching but were considered "devinely written" for centuries. But because the Church told us they aren't, now we are wrong to read them or believe in their devinity.

I love God. I love Jesus and what he taught. There are more things he wants us to know that we have hidden from us. I will keep seeking him in every way I can. But one thing that DOES bother me. I don't see Him on this board very often at all. I see our ENEMY here all the time posing as christians, but not Him often.

So I talk on the boards. I point out other places to find what was once deemed devine scripture. I try and get into non violent discourses with as many people as possible. When they ask my view, I answer. I don't expect them to change, but I hope someone will find Christ through something that is said in the discussion. And I pray that some christian won't leave God because of the childish fighting seen by those claiming Christ as their deity.

rapt

September 15th, 2001, 11:26 PM

Saving grace:

I will ignore your scriptural quotes just as you ignore the 40-50 times Jesus himself told us not to judge.

Quote them for us, all 40-50 of them, if they exist, and I will not ignore them.

How can you ignore ANY scripture, regardless of who quotes them?

Just be honest. You don't believe them either way, do you?

You are an Enyart follower, and their is no repentance in those who follow his ways. You choose to blind yourself. I choose to see.

You are who has choosen blindness. I follow no one but Christ. I don't even KNOW Enyart. You IMAGINE THINGS like a bunch of scriptures that don't exist, and make false statements like that I am an Enyart follower. Prove your statements or keep your lies to yourself.

Liars make statements they cannot support.

Almost enough to turn a christian into an atheist

If you can so smugly claim that I or Christ made statements we never made, it's no wonder you are ready to become an atheist. Liars and atheists are not in submission to the Word of God, and hold their own imaginations above God's Word. They make the Word of God of none effect by unbelief just such as yours.

It's when someone wants to throw scripture around that I lose my faith. Especially when that scripture goes against MY morals.

(color, bold, caps mine)

This blasphemous statement shows your disdain for the Word of God and your proud exaltation of your own imagination above It, as if YOUR morals are more holy than Gods! (2Thes 2:4 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=2THes+2%3A4&version=KJV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=english))

No scripture is immoral. If any scripture is against YOUR "morals", then it's YOU that's in need of change, not the scripture.

After I read what you call "your position" (your gross diatribe about all you "KNOW" [...ahem]), and then how you followed it up with your unwitting self condemnation: I also see atheists come to this forum and laugh at christians for acting like ignorant children throwing fits over what they "know" while they really "know" nothing, only God does. I see atheist come here and leave saying, "I am SSSOOOOO glad I am not a christian!"
...it became apparant that you don't know ANYTHING, but that you're just another wolf in sheep's clothing; just another perverter of scripture; an ANTICHRIST like John warned us about.

Get thee hence Satan

.

His_saving_Grac

September 15th, 2001, 11:45 PM

I choose not to join into your war of words. I choose to keep my loving vision of christ and I choose to reject your hateful version of him. There is nothing else to say.

I am SO sick of supposed christians having nothing better to do but scream insults at others.

Guess what. If YOU follow Jesus, and what you are doing is right, then I would have to choose his enemy over your version of christianity. If my god can't be a loving God with loving followers, then I want nothing to do with YOUR God, because the GOD you follow is hateful, angry, and all around disgusting. I am SO glad that YOUR God does not really exist.

LOL I am the ANTI-CHRIST!!!!!!! HURRAYYYYYYYY FOR ME.

I have met ignorant people before. I am VERY glad I will never meet you.

rapt

September 15th, 2001, 11:56 PM

You will meet my God, like it or not. THEN you will know what "love" is, and that you had blasphemed it, and chosen darkness in it's place, and called darkness "love".

His_saving_Grac

September 16th, 2001, 12:06 AM

Originally posted by rapt
You will meet my God, like it or not. THEN you will know what "love" is, and that you had blasphemed it, and chosen darkness in it's place, and called darkness "love".

LMHO yeah whatever Rapt. Once again it's the case of "if you don't believe as I do hten your condemned and going to Hell because I say so. I hope you enjoy saying so.

Lets see, you say to use the death penaly and decide ourselves who deserves it. That is YOUR God's love. My God rejects that we are smart enough to know ALL the truth and leave all judgement in the hands of the only one who knows all. Yep, that MUST be satan. Satan HATES death, remember? He would NEVER want us to kill each other. Only GOD would.(Hear the HEAVY sarcasm????)

YOU know me and call me a liar. Whatever. Nice to see how loving YOUR God taught you.

I would bet you my soul against yours that your own church leader (IF you go to church) would reject your own statements on this board.

I like your God. He lets you use the word "love" as a threat. funny I don't see THAT God in the bible. Only YOU do, and those like you.

His_saving_Grac

September 16th, 2001, 12:10 AM

I hope you realize your God has all the same tones and beliefs that the JiHad God of the terrorist have. Mine has the tones that the U.S.A held in the National Church in Washington yesterday. The USA supports my God. Your God is about to be blown back to his home.

MARANATHA_NOW

September 16th, 2001, 12:28 AM

I believe there are going to be some who at the return of CHRIST, are going to be shocked at seeing the lake that will be 200 miles long and about 4 feet deep. This will be a lake of blood and body parts. I can almost hear them now saying I thought GOD was a loving GOD. How could HE do such a thing. I will tell you how, it's called justice. When GOD THE LORD JESUS returns he will personally kill all that are alive on the earth that have rejected him. This will be the most horrific sight that you can imagine. There we will be no unsaved that will enter the 1000 year kingdom. PEACE, but not yet.

His_saving_Grac

September 16th, 2001, 01:05 AM

Who said anything about rejecting Jesus? I reject RAPT'S interpretation of Jesus.

Where did you get your details on this lake?

So justice means death in your view too, huh? Not only death, but tortuoues death. You REALLY think God wants your false love through FEAR of him? You really can't accept that the reason Jesus was born was so we Loved God because we LOVED him and NOT because we feared him?

Well, I will continue to love God because I love him and not because I fear him. He has my eternal love. I know his power. I don't fear that power because he has already taken me back from death and pain 6 times personally. So when he wants to, he can do it. I will lovingly let him without fear in my heart. He has granted me extra years to spend and develope with my children. I KNOW about his Grace. I KNOW about his love. This tortuous God Rapt discusses (as well as others) is NOT the God who personally intervened in my life.

The God I worship was the one who sent the prophets. the one who sent John the Baptist. The one who sent Jesus. And the one who taught LOVE and not hate, The one who the world prayed to during ceremonies worldwide two days ago. The one that had his leaders asking for compassion and not hasty attacks on the innocents. NOT the one Rapt says will blow up everyone no matter what.

I reject the prophecies of Revelations as the Church did for 1500 years. I reject the churches use of that book to strike fear into the hearts of the uneducated for 300 years, and how each and every calamity that happenes they point it out in the book and tell us the exact year it is going to happen, and then have to take it back when it doesn't.

It was supposed to happen in 2000. then in 2001. Now they say in 2004 because they screwed up the Year of jesus birth. And in 2005 they will find another reason for it to happen.

I reject the fiery hell that did NOT exist with Moses' God, but was a later invention. I reject that the absolutely last god sent prophet to speak his devine word was Paul. I reject that NO ONE ELSE IN THE ENTIRE WORLD has EVER been inspired by god to say anything in almost 2000 years.

I accept Jesus Christ and his teachings. I accept that there are more teachings of his that didn't agree with Paul and were rejected by the Roman church that was Created by Paul (not Peter)

I have my peace. Rapt, through his anger, has no peace. Which do YOU think is more in touch with god almighty? The one who is stressing and angry, or the one who is content for every single breath he is still able to take since they are extra gifts from God and something he had lost twice in the past?

I love my God. He is NOT the same God of Rapt. He is the creator of the world, called Lord and the shortened version of his previously secret name is YHWH (it's actually a 26 letter name).

My God has already shown his love for me. Mine has never rejected me nor left me. Mine has cause many miracles in my life. Rapts is bombing children.

MARANATHA_NOW

September 16th, 2001, 01:26 AM

I get the info on the lake, in REVELATION chapter 14, as well as chapter 19, which I believe are parallel stories. Also the verses in MATT. and MARK and LUKE, that refer to when the birds gather themselves together. But if you reject the only book in the bible (REVELATIONS), that GOD says you will recieve a blessing for reading and believing. Then I guess you will just lose out. BTW do you hate Rapt, if you do not, it sure sounds like you are close to. Rapt and I disagree on many things, but I still believe he is my brother in CHRIST. PEACE, but not yet.

Zakath

September 16th, 2001, 06:51 AM

Hello Rapt,

I remember your words and threat..."...And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season..." Beware lest ye be found to fight against God as well, o ye devils that despise His Word.

I'm still here and my health and vision are both just as good as yesterday. I'm waiting for some action by you or your apparently bogus deity...

Or maybe you've decided that your deity doesn't really have any power as your old myths describe.

It appears that you're just another follower of a powerless delusion, worshipping a god that you created and who exists only in your mind.

Such misguided belief is so pathetic...

His_saving_Grac

September 16th, 2001, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by MARANATHA_NOW
I get the info on the lake, in REVELATION chapter 14, as well as chapter 19, which I believe are parallel stories. Also the verses in MATT. and MARK and LUKE, that refer to when the birds gather themselves together. But if you reject the only book in the bible (REVELATIONS), that GOD says you will recieve a blessing for reading and believing. Then I guess you will just lose out. BTW do you hate Rapt, if you do not, it sure sounds like you are close to. Rapt and I disagree on many things, but I still believe he is my brother in CHRIST. PEACE, but not yet.

Yeah, I guess I lose out since GOD did NOT say you will recieve a blessing for reading and believing the book of revelations. And it took 1500 years+ for the church to believe.

GOD has NEVER spoken out about anything in the New Testement. People who CLAIM that God spoke to THEM made that claim. Funny how you will accept their claims, but if ANYONE were to make that same claim today, they would be branded as crazy, or a heretic.

The Matthew, Mark and Luke don't say anything about this "lake of blood and body parts"

Nope, I don't hate Rapt. I sure do hate his way of presenting christianity though. I disapprove of ANYONE who tries to make Jesus into a WarGod when he himself refused that while on earth. I disapprove on ANYONE who says "God" told them to kill righteously, when "righteousness" is not a black and white word, but an ambigouis one with a different interpretation by each individual, including the JiHad and fanatics that cause terrorism.

Read the "Shepard of Hermes" That is a very very famous OTHER books of revelations where God spoke to an individual and showed him the layers of Heaven and the end of life. It was never canonized because it is even more scary than Revelations.

Then go back and re-read the Gospels. The kingdom of God (Jesus) was to happen in THEIR lifetimes. Jesus himself many times said "I say to you, many here will not taste death before you see the Kingdom of God".

If Jesus is the son incarnate of God, when he was crucified we rejected the Kingdom of God. Revelations is nothing but the churches way to keep the faith alive and scare people into love (and it is impossible to love through fear. You can only FAKE your love)

Rapt may be a "brother" in Christ, but the minute he deems someone of my low background as the "anti-christ" then he goes past the knowledge of the Lord and into the realm of shear idiocy. He needs to read the bible and find out how powerful the enemy is. His speech will confuse and convert billions to his side thinking he is the Messiah come back. THAT is who the anti-christ is/will be. Not some lowly person still searching for all of Gods word. The Anti-christ will use Gods own word against us to cunfuse us into sinning, much as is being done when people advocate mass killing and say it is in Gods name. That is what the terrorist fanatics do. That is ALSO what Rapt is advocating. So if THEY are wrong, how is HE right?

His_saving_Grac

September 16th, 2001, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Zakath
Hello Rapt,

I remember your words and threat...

I'm still here and my health and vision are both just as good as yesterday. I'm waiting for some action by you or your apparently bogus deity...

Or maybe you've decided that your deity doesn't really have any power as your old myths describe.

It appears that you're just another follower of a powerless delusion, worshipping a god that you created and who exists only in your mind.

Such misguided belief is so pathetic...

Hello Zakath, how are you today?

I must have missed Rapts attempt to "curse" you. He accused me of blasphamy, and is too uninformed to realize that his attempt to curse you is a blasphemy in itself.

A person on Earth cannot possibly call on God and order him to do something to another. God NEVER granted Rapt that power, and to act like he has it is one of the greatest blasphemies possible. It shows he PRESUMES to have been singled out with God's blessing.

You may be right about the powerlessness of Rapts deity, because his deity doesn't appear to follow the same rules that the Christians "God" does. Rapts deity follows Rapts rules. Making Rapt his own God.

While his "god" is a delussion on his part, rest assured it isn't the same God from the bible. I know you are atheist, but don't let the God that some fanatics follow make you think he is the same God I or many other christians follow.

I would love to have an educated discourse with you about this. I promise you I will NOT resort to insults, threats, sarcasm (unless in a joking manner where we BOTH laugh), or any other manner of belittling your faith or lack of belief in my faith.

I would be honored if you would accept this offer.

Zakath

September 16th, 2001, 09:33 PM

Originally posted by His_saving_Grac
Hello Zakath, how are you today?

Hearty and hale, thank you!

...I would love to have an educated discourse with you about this. I promise you I will NOT resort to insults, threats, sarcasm (unless in a joking manner where we BOTH laugh), or any other manner of belittling your faith or lack of belief in my faith.

I would be honored if you would accept this offer.

I'd be glad to oblige, but I will be travelling on business this week so my posting may be a little erratic. If you're willing to be patient regarding my response time, carry on. Otherwise we'll have to wait until next week...

It's up to you.

D__o__n

September 17th, 2001, 06:12 AM

Actually, Zakath, you are correct in that the intent of the meaning is directed towards those in the church.

However, there is evidence that cannot be overlooked: Verse 9 - I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators.

When applied to the passage, this shows that some hypocrisy was going on with the Corinthians. Why are they judging those outside the church when they haven't judged the ones inside the church that are doing the same thing?

Paul isn't telling them not to judge; he's echoing "remove the beam from your own eye before talking about the mote in your brother's."

D__o__n

September 17th, 2001, 06:14 AM

Saving Grace two things to consider:

1) Hypocrite - actor; in the context of Matthew 7, someone who was acting righteous, when in reality they were just as bad as the people they were condemning.

2) Who do you say that Jesus is?

His_saving_Grac

September 17th, 2001, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Zakath

Hearty and hale, thank you!

I'd be glad to oblige, but I will be travelling on business this week so my posting may be a little erratic. If you're willing to be patient regarding my response time, carry on. Otherwise we'll have to wait until next week...

It's up to you.
I will await your return/time allotments and also carry on as I have many many people clammoring for my attention, as you can see. lol

His_saving_Grac

September 17th, 2001, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by D__o__n
Saving Grace two things to consider:

1) Hypocrite - actor; in the context of Matthew 7, someone who was acting righteous, when in reality they were just as bad as the people they were condemning.

2) Who do you say that Jesus is?

Answers

1: Hypocrate was actually someone who put on anothers clothes and 'became' that person, whether real or fictional. Righteous or unrigtheous is not part of the interpretation. Paul was one of the greatest in the strict sense of being a "hypocrate". When with the Romans, he became as a roman. When with the Jews, he became as a Jew. (His own scriptural words). To do so was to practice a deception, which is why I doubt his sainthood. God doesn't need deceptions to promote his point, he has his enemy to do that. Paul convicts himself with his own words.

Jesus called them hypocrates because they made getting into heaven almost impossible (much as many churches do now) They acted like they would be the only making it in, while those they were teaching weren't worthy. They weren't "as bad" as you said. They just demanded that everyone follow the letter of the law so much that heaven was unattainable, even for them. That is why Jesus asked them which was better, holding the Sabath or saving a life on the Sabath. Who was better, those who left the supposedly "dead" body on the side of the road because it was unclean to touch the dead and therefore if you did you were 'defiled" for a prescribed time period, or to do as the Samaritan did and help the person who was NOT dead by not worrying about defilement. They were using one law to override the greater laws of God, much as most who post here do.

2. Who was Jesus? He COULD have been god in the flesh without the need of having a "virgin"birth (especially from a virgin who was born of a 'virgin') All he had to do was enter with the Holy spirit and take over the body of the Jesus baby. (Much the same way these people SAY the Holy Spirit takes them over and causes them to "speak in tongues". Talk about not reading scripture. In Acts "speaking in tongues is NOT speaking where only an interpreter can understand, but where EVERYONE understands the speaker(s) in their native tongue, no interpreter needed.)

He could be the greatest prophet. Or tied with Moses in that respect since the two have held the world rapt with God for many many millenea.

He could have been who the zealots had chosen to be the "messiah" according to scripture, which was a war-priest king from Davidic lines to give them back the lands once controlled by David/Solomon because that is the real interpretation of the biblical scripture of the prophecy that was believed by the Jewish followers, but he failed (in their eyes) because he DIDN'T start the war they wanted (and THEY started 30+ years after his death to the destruction of themselves AND Jeruselum).

This would cause the reasoning for Paul to proclaim a "new covenant" in order to keep the teachins of love alive since Jesus no longer had a Jewish following thanks to Nero and the splitting and jealousy of the Apostles (again, that is known from the scriptures).

But he wasn't God in the flesh. God proclaimed himself to himself at the river Jordan?

But did he have the knowledge of what God wanted instilled in him? Almost certainly. He knew the Mosaic law better than those who had taught it and interpreted it. He knew the SPIRIT of the law which is where we now get the expression. He knew which were the two greatest of all Gods commandments and knew that THEY overrode all others. Sort of like "Rule 1: The customer is always right. Rule 2: See rule 1." Anyone placing any other law ABOVE loving God with all your being and loving one another as you love yourself was not following the spirit, but the letter, which made Heavon unattainable.

So who was Jesus? The man who knew God as Moses did, as Elijah did, but spoke much more clearer, and told off the church leaders instead of telling off the kings. He was sent to "bring back the lost sheep of Israel" (the preists and those they taught) to the "light" of God. He left a message that has trancended the ages, and has lead those who need secrecy to look for secret interpretaions in his words. He opened Heavon up to all by taking away the literal law and replacing it with the spirit of the law, which is why the way to heaven leads through him. You can't get to Heaven through the literal interpretation, but through the spirit
of the word in which God had said it. Those who follow it literally as the lost sheep.

Someone recently attacked me because I would follow my "morals" above their interpretation of Gods word. Morals are a type of character that a person feels is correct. If they are not evil in nature, they must come from God. Satan can't (according to christian belief) have a "high moral character". So if my convictions say killing is wrong, no one can tell me God says killing one another is "good". God is all powerful (again according to beliefs) He doesn't need ME to kill. He doesn't even need ANYONE 'killed" he can just make them "cease to be" if he chooses. Anyone who doesn't accept that then can't honestly believe in Gods power to create.

D__o__n

September 17th, 2001, 01:45 PM

You're in a sad state, Saving Grace; hope you realize that.

As firm as you seem to be in your beliefs and convictions, the truth is you aren't sure.

You see, I firmly believe you are wrong; Jesus declared Himself as God (I and my father are one).

Here's an easy one for you: Who knew the law, the intent, the spirit, etc. better than anyone else? The author of those laws....

How much faith does it take to know that Jesus was born of a virgin? The same amount that it takes to know that when you hit the power switch, the TV will turn on. How much faith does it take to know that He was God in the flesh? About as much as it takes to know that when you dial a number on a cell phone and hit "send," it'll ring somewhere else. How much faith does it take to know that He died and rose again? Just about the amount it takes to know that when you step out the door tomorrow, the world will still be there.

And before you say it: None of these actions are "faithless." No one hits the power switch on the TV with the thought, "It's not going to turn on." No one hits the send button on their cell phone with the thought, "the satellite crashed and burned, so this call isn't going to go through." No one steps out the door with the thought, "I'm stepping into a world that no longer exists."

Faith is that easy. We exercise it every day in millions of ways. But when it comes to saying that Jesus was born of a virgin, He is God in the flesh, He died and rose again--all of a sudden, our "faith" is practically non-existent.

Jesus Himself said that if we only had the faith of a mustard seed...which is still more than we need to turn the power switch on....

Just something for you to ponder.

As for your small explanation on morals, it begs several questions: If it is not evil it is from God? How untrue. It begs the assumption that we know exactly what good is.

How do we know exactly what good is, without a moral guideline to begin with? What you deem as "not evil" may in truth be an evil wrapped in lies--and thus, the appearance of good.

So what, pray tell, do you base your moral guideline on? From your post, it would appear that it's whatever YOU feel is correct.

His_saving_Grac

September 17th, 2001, 04:36 PM

You're in a sad state, Saving Grace; hope you realize that. Actually we are all in a sad state. You included.

As firm as you seem to be in your beliefs and convictions, the truth is you aren't sure. No, I am sure about my convictions. I am sure I don't know everything God wants me to know. I am sure I have much to be taught, much to discover, and much to share.

You see, I firmly believe you are wrong; Jesus declared Himself as God (I and my father are one). As you choose to believe. Remember, you are reading a text that was edited for 1600 years before anyone even dared to offer it to the public.

Here's an easy one for you: Who knew the law, the intent, the spirit, etc. better than anyone else? The author of those laws.... So? You have spoken with him? You honestly think that God can make a fruit of knowledge grow from a tree in the Garden of Eden, yet he can't put that knowledge into his prophet? He did it once before with Moses. Seems you don't believe too much in Gods power after all is said and done. I guess you can't call God omnipotent since he has limits in your mind of what he can or can not do. (Now I am NOT insulting you, but I AM trying to figure out how he can be all powerful yet has to fit everything into just what you can understand).

How much faith does it take to know that Jesus was born of a virgin The oldest known Canonized Gospel (Mark) has no word of a virgin birth. The oldest papers written by someone who reportedly met Jesus (Paul) has NO mention of a virgin birth.

Just about the amount it takes to know that when you step out the door tomorrow, the world will still be there. Really? I guess revelations doesn't exist for you. Good, I don't believe it either.

None of these actions are "faithless." No one hits the power switch on the TV with the thought, "It's not going to turn on." No one hits the send button on their cell phone with the thought, "the satellite crashed and burned, so this call isn't going to go through." You must not live in California, or florida, or any other place where natural disasters make those thing happen enough that the doubt is ALWAYS present. And I really belive god should never be equated with man made devices, but that is just my opinion, no scripture that I know of behind it (well Idoltry, but that wasn't the context you were using it.)

But when it comes to saying that Jesus was born of a virgin, He is God in the flesh, He died and rose again--all of a sudden, our "faith" is practically non-existent. I really don't understand what you were trying to say here. Could you please clarify your meaning a bot for me? Thank you very much in advance.

Jesus Himself said that if we only had the faith of a mustard seed...which is still more than we need to turn the power switch on.... LOL well the Mustard seed parable actually reads to me that he was using how the "word of God" speads. Some times on fertile soil(ears) where it grows and grows, sometimes on rock (where no one listens) and it dies, sometimes in cracks (semi-faithful) where it gets taken over by weeds (untruths and false churches)...etc. As far as I have ever heard, it was never talking about light switches or faith. It was talking about Gods word or the Kingdom of Heaven.

As for your small explanation on morals, it begs several questions: If it is not evil it is from God? How untrue. It begs the assumption that we know exactly what good is. Wow, but YOU claim to know what good IS. THAT is why my morals ARE correct. Because I won't believe someone who says THEY know what good is, when it deals with the destuction of another soul. When GOD order deaths, he does it himself. He didn't kill Cain, he sent him out and even marked him to assure that no other people he met would kill him. God destroyed Sodom and Gamoreah. God flooded the world.