Are You In The Lord's Church?

[PureX]

This question was asked in a thread that I am not allowed to respond to, but I wished to respond anyway, so I will have to do so here:

Christ is not a religion, nor a religius denomination. Christ is not a book of rules that people must follow. Christ is not a doctrine or a decree that has to be adhered to. Christ is not a bunch of supernatural feats or rituals that have to be performed. Christ is not a ticket to heaven.

Christ is God's love given human form. That human form was named Jesus, but it also has YOUR name on it, too. We are all expressions of God's love "made flesh". The question is; can we recognize this, and do we then choose to accept ourselves as such, and to live accordingly? The Christ part remains true no matter what. The Christian part is in our recognizing it, and in how we respond to it.

What any of this has to do with church buildings, denominations, and organizations I don't know or care. We can be Christians in religious organizations or out, and we can refuse to be Christians in religious organizations or out. There is no intrinsic connection between Christ and religious organizations.

[Nineveh]

Christ is God's love given human form.

Christ is God's Word in the flesh John 1:1. He is not a created being like us, He was God from the beginning.

We (did you repent and turn to Christ?) can be Christians in religious organizations or out, and we can refuse to be Christians in religious organizations or out.

I agree. It is up to each individual to accept or reject Christ.

[PureX]

Originally posted by Nineveh
Christ is God's Word in the flesh John 1:1. He is not a created being like us, He was God from the beginning....

I agree. It is up to each individual to accept or reject Christ. In the original Greek, the word "word" was the Greek word "logos". As you can see, this word does not imply written language, stories, or religious scriptures, but "logic", or reasoning, or an essential ideal. When it was written that Christ is God's "logos" made flesh, it was saying that God's logic, reasoning, and/or ideals were made flesh. Most people (not just Christians) believe that God's essential logic, reasoning, or ideal is love, forgiveness, generosity; and certainly this is the "logos" of God that Jesus most exemplified, even to his own brutal death.

Christ as a word implies that divine state that Jesus inhabited: the state of being God's logos in human form. That logos is love, forgiveness, generosity, kindness, healing, peace, wisdom, ... We too have been created by God and as God's creations we express His "logos" as well. This is why we are able to love, and forgive each other, and be kind and generous to each other.

Unfortunately, many of us live in fear, and pain, and confusion, and we don't understand that we are expressions of God's divine love on Earth. And some of us, even when we do understand this, refuse to be that which we were created to be. I suppose we ALL refuse it sometimes, and certainly we all succumb to fear, pain, and confusion and lose sight of this divine purpose, often.

But being a Christian is recognizing this divine purpose (being expresssions of God's love on Earth) and doing our best to live out this purpose. And in so doing, we become more fully ourselves. Not slaves, or minions of God, but we become more fully the people we were created to be, by God. Love both given and received, is freedom, not slavery.

Religions may helps us to do this, or they may just as easily distract us from doing this. The point is that Christ is not a religion, and neither is Christianity, contrary to the beliefs of most people who call themselves "Christians".

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by PureX
In the original Greek, the word "word" was the Greek word "logos". As you can see, this word does not imply written language, stories, or religious scriptures, but "logic", or reasoning, or an essential ideal. When it was written that Christ is God's "logos" made flesh, it was saying that God's logic, reasoning, and/or ideals were made flesh. Most people (not just Christians) believe that God's essential logic, reasoning, or ideal is love, forgiveness, generosity; and certainly this is the "logos" of God that Jesus most exemplified, even to his own brutal death.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word (Logos if you want to speak Greek), and the Word (Logos if you want to speak Greek)was with God, and the Word (Logos if you want to speak Greek) was God.

Christ as a word implies that divine state that Jesus inhabited: the state of being God's logos in human form. That logos is love, forgiveness, generosity, kindness, healing, peace, wisdom, ... We too have been created by God and as God's creations we express His "logos" as well. This is why we are able to love, and forgive each other, and be kind and generous to each other.

Matthew 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Unfortunately, many of us live in fear, and pain, and confusion, and we don't understand that we are expressions of God's divine love on Earth. And some of us, even when we do understand this, refuse to be that which we were created to be. I suppose we ALL refuse it sometimes, and certainly we all succumb to fear, pain, and confusion and lose sight of this divine purpose, often.

The reason I lived in "fear, pain and confusion" was because I believed "god was all and all was god". Not exactly the same pagan idea, but neither squares with Scripture.

But being a Christian is recognizing this divine purpose (being expresssions of God's love on Earth) and doing our best to live out this purpose. And in so doing, we become more fully ourselves. Not slaves, or minions of God, but we become more fully the people we were created to be, by God. Love both given and received, is freedom, not slavery.

Actually, if we look at Scripture it tells us to be saved (Christian, aka followers of Christ, aka in the Body of Christ) we must know we are sinners worthy of hell, repent and turn to Christ for forgiveness.

Religions may helps us to do this, or they may just as easily distract us from doing this. The point is that Christ is not a religion, and neither is Christianity, contrary to the beliefs of most people who call themselves "Christians".

I haven't seen a religion yet that didn't try to cloud some issue of sound doctrine with a man made idea. I still agree with you that having your name on a denomination's roster isn't going to get you anywhere. Each of us has the opportunity to accept or reject Christ. We accept Christ on His terms, we reject Christ on our own terms.

[Berean Todd]

Originally posted by PureX
Christ is not a ticket to heaven.


Are you so sure of that PureX???

"For there is no other name under heaven or on earth by which men are saved ..." (Acts 4:12)

"For if you call on the name of the Lord, you will be saved ..." (Rom 10:13)

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life ..." (John 14:6)

"I am the door; if anyone enteres through Me, he will be saved ..." (John 10:9)

[PureX]

The bible is not God, so insisting on using the bible to claim God believes this or says that is an endless and pointless exercise. The bible is the product of religion, and like religion, it can just as easily be a stumbling block as it can be a spiritual aid.

God is God. The bible is not God. Christ is God's "logos" (mind/reasoning/will) "made flesh". The bible is not God's "logos" (mind/reasoning/will) "made flesh". The holy spirit is God's "logos" within us, given to us to guide us as we become more fully who we were intended to be, by our Creator. The bible is not the holy spirit, and is not here to guide us as we become more fully who God created us to be.

The bible is just a religious book. Like religion, it can help or hinder, and like religion it is man-made and error-prone. To confuse the bible with God, Christ, or the holy spirit is to make it a false idol. Just as to hold our religions to be the gateways between man and God is to make of them false authorities and stumbling blocks both for ourselves and for others. It's the behavior of the Scribes and Pharasees.

[Berean Todd]

Really? Well what teaches you that Christ is "God's logos made flesh" or that there is a Father, Son and Holy Ghost?? That's found nowhere else but in the Bible. So, it appears then that you are picking out what you want to believe in and discarding the rest. You are making your own false beliefs only there is no rhyme nor reason to your methods.

The same Bible that tells us that Jesus is the "logos" made flesh, tells us that there is salvation in none other than Jesus. It's not true because it's in the Bible, it's in the Bible because it's true.

[PureX]

Originally posted by Berean Todd
Really? Well what teaches you that Christ is "God's logos made flesh" or that there is a Father, Son and Holy Ghost?? That's found nowhere else but in the Bible. So, it appears then that you are picking out what you want to believe in and discarding the rest. You are making your own false beliefs only there is no rhyme nor reason to your methods.

The same Bible that tells us that Jesus is the "logos" made flesh, tells us that there is salvation in none other than Jesus. It's not true because it's in the Bible, it's in the Bible because it's true. It's a good thing to read the bible. It's a good thing to read the other religious texts, too. If we allow God's spirit within us to guide us as we read, we can learn much of value from them. That spirit will tell us what to keep and what to discard. That's why God has placed it within us.

When we turn the bible into a false idol, we deny God's spirit within us to help us see what to use and what to let go of in it, and for each of us this will be somewhat different. Remember, the purpose of God's spirit within us is not to make us "right" or to make us "righteous", but to help us become more fully the person that we were created by God to be.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by PureX
The bible is not God, so insisting on using the bible to claim God believes this or says that is an endless and pointless exercise. The bible is the product of religion, and like religion, it can just as easily be a stumbling block as it can be a spiritual aid.

There are instructions in that Book, too, not just read, but read and pray. I don't know of anyone engaged in worshiping the Bible, but you must realize, Scripture is where we find out what the Word (God) has to say. Why should a Christian put their own reasoning over Scripture? Where there is a question, Scripture should take presidence over let's say, the book of mormon, strange doctines, personal reason or denominational dogma, etc.

God is God. The bible is not God. Christ is God's "logos" (mind/reasoning/will) "made flesh". The bible is not God's "logos" (mind/reasoning/will) "made flesh". The holy spirit is God's "logos" within us, given to us to guide us as we become more fully who we were intended to be, by our Creator. The bible is not the holy spirit, and is not here to guide us as we become more fully who God created us to be.

If the Bible is not good for doctrine, edification, education and reproof, then what is it for?

The bible is just a religious book. Like religion, it can help or hinder, and like religion it is man-made and error-prone. To confuse the bible with God, Christ, or the holy spirit is to make it a false idol. Just as to hold our religions to be the gateways between man and God is to make of them false authorities and stumbling blocks both for ourselves and for others. It's the behavior of the Scribes and Pharasees.

To place your own reasoning over Scripture is also creating a false idol. Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. We learn of Him through Scripture. Have your read the Bible?

Please respond to my last post to you, thank you :)

[PureX]

Originally posted by Nineveh There are instructions in that Book, too, not just read, but read and pray. I don't know of anyone engaged in worshiping the Bible, but you must realize, Scripture is where we find out what the Word (God) has to say. Why should a Christian put their own reasoning over Scripture? Where there is a question, Scripture should take presidence over let's say, the book of mormon, strange doctines, personal reason or denominational dogma, etc.You are already using your own reasoning when you choose to believe that God wrote the scriptures. You are already using your own reasoning when you choose to believe that you AREN'T using your own reasoning, somehow, but are instead just "following divine orders" even though it's you have pronounced the orders "divine" to begin with.

One good reason not to do this is that it's basically dishonest. Another reason is that it places human words and ideas on the same level as God, and worse yet, it gives those who believe in this illusion the false idea that by owning and reading and following the bible, they know (own) and follow God's will. In effect, they have rendered their own interpretation of scripture divine and inerrant by rendering scripture divine and inerrant and then professing to follow it blindly. This is of course a lie, and a very dangerous lie, too. Whenever we do such a thing, the results are almost always evil.
Originally posted by Nineveh If the Bible is not good for doctrine, edification, education and reproof, then what is it for?The bible is useful for all these things, but it is not God, it is not inerrant, it will not make you or I inerrant, either. And it should not be "blindly obeyed" as if it were God Himself.
Originally posted by Nineveh To place your own reasoning over Scripture is also creating a false idol.There is no escaping the fact that we all have to follow our "own reasoning". Turning your will and your life over to a religious book may not be very reasonable, but you are just as responsable for that decision as anyone else is responsable for theirs. Accusing others of self-will and pretending that you are somehow better than they are does not change the fact that you are just as self-willed as everyone else is. Your choosing to make the bible into "God's words" does not make your having chosen to do so go away. Your beliefs are no less the product of your own choosing than anyone else's are. So stop pretending that willful ignorance somehow equals selflessness. It doesn't.
Originally posted by Nineveh Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. We learn of Him through Scripture.Yes, we learn of Jesus through the bible. But we learn of God and Christ through His spirit within us, guiding us, and though our innate need to seek the source of our own creation, and to explore our own divine nature (to love). Before the bible there was still God, still Christ, and still God's spirit guide within us. When the bible is long forgotten, there will still be God, Christ, and God's spirit being expressed through all creation for whoever is around then to seek out and to follow.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by PureX
You are already using your own reasoning when you choose to believe that God wrote the scriptures. You are already using your own reasoning when you choose to believe that you AREN'T using your own reasoning, somehow, but are instead just "following divine orders" even though it's you have pronounced the orders "divine" to begin with.

Well, what really happened was I read it. Then believed it. That is one of those personal calls one makes, like accepting Christ.

One good reason not to do this is that it's basically dishonest. Another reason is that it places human words and ideas on the same level as God, and worse yet, it gives those who believe in this illusion the false idea that by owning and reading and following the bible, they know (own) and follow God's will. In effect, they have rendered their own interpretation of scripture divine and inerrant by rendering scripture divine and inerrant and then professing to follow it blindly. This is of course a lie, and a very dangerous lie, too. Whenever we do such a thing, the results are almost always evil.

How do you know all this is true?

The bible is useful for all these things, but it is not God,

I'm not sure why you keep saying this no one is arguing Scripture is God.

it is not inerrant, it will not make you or I inerrant, either. And it should not be "blindly obeyed" as if it were God Himself.
There is no escaping the fact that we all have to follow our "own reasoning". Turning your will and your life over to a religious book may not be very reasonable, but you are just as responsable for that decision as anyone else is responsable for theirs.

I've never heard of anyone turning their life over to a book.

Accusing others of self-will and pretending that you are somehow better than they are does not change the fact that you are just as self-willed as everyone else is.

I am not being accusatory, I think we agree people make their own choices. I used to be the same way, until I turned my life over to Christ.

Your choosing to make the bible into "God's words" does not make your having chosen to do so go away. Your beliefs are no less the product of your own choosing than anyone else's are. So stop pretending that willful ignorance somehow equals selflessness. It doesn't.

And you disbelieving Scripture is not God's word does not make your having chosen to do so go away.

Yes, we learn of Jesus through the bible. But we learn of God and Christ through His spirit within us, guiding us, and though our innate need to seek the source of our own creation, and to explore our own divine nature (to love). Before the bible there was still God, still Christ, and still God's spirit guide within us. When the bible is long forgotten, there will still be God, Christ, and God's spirit being expressed through all creation for whoever is around then to seek out and to follow.

God said in Genesis, "My Spirit will not abide with man forever." When Adam and Eve sinned, they no longer had perfect communion with God. Only Jesus can be the mediator between God and man. Jesus said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

[smaller]

For people who want to judge others, there are texts available to reveal their hearts to them.

For people who want to believe GREATER THINGS there are Words such as this:

Colossians 1
19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

This statement is a much higher viewpoint than what one will find "in a building of believers."

enjoy!

smaller

[PureX]

Originally posted by Nineveh
Well, what really happened was I read it. Then believed it. That is one of those personal calls one makes, like accepting Christ.Yes, it's your own decision, just like when someone else decides that the bible is not the inerrant words of God, but the religious "wisdom" of men.
Originally posted by Nineveh I'm not sure why you keep saying this no one is arguing Scripture is God.Well, you do place it above all things, don't you? I mean it rules all your thoughts and behaviors, doesn't it? You even capitolize it when you write, just like you do the word "God". For you, the bible is the physical manifestation of God's mind. That certainly is an idol by any definition.
Originally posted by Nineveh I've never heard of anyone turning their life over to a book. You may not have "heard of" it, but lots of people do it.
Originally posted by Nineveh I am not being accusatory, I think we agree people make their own choices. I used to be the same way, until I turned my life over to Christ. Sure you were. You were accusing me of placing my own reasoning over scripture. And I am pointing out that EVERYONE uses their own reasoning all the time. Including yourself. You have this illusion that because you decide that God wrote the bible that somehow this decision is not the product of your own reasoning. You also seem to think that reading the bible does not involve your own reasoning, either, which of course it does. You seem to think that because you ignore reason, and accept whatever interpretation of the bible your mind produces as you read it, that you are somehow not then involved in the process: that it's just coming strait from God.

It's not. YOU are reading it. YOU are interpreting what you are reading according to YOUR own knowledge and experience of the world. YOU are deciding what the text means, and YOU are deciding whether or not to "obey" it. Then YOU are choosing to ignore everything that YOU'VE just done and pretend all you did was "see and obey". And then YOU were accusing me of doing all the exact same things as if I were somehow being self-centered. At least I will acknowledge my own decisions.
Originally posted by Nineveh God said in Genesis,.....No, God didn't "say" it.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by PureX
Yes, it's your own decision, just like when someone else decides that the bible is not the inerrant words of God, but the religious "wisdom" of men.

Ok, I understand your position. You and I have a gulf between us.

Well, you do place it above all things, don't you? I mean it rules all your thoughts and behaviors, doesn't it? You even capitolize it when you write, just like you do the word "God". For you, the bible is the physical manifestation of God's mind. That certainly is an idol by any definition.

No. I place Scripture above men's ideas. Everyone has a foundation, what is yours? Yeah, I use a cap letter, sort of like when I write other proper nouns, that would be proper spelling, not idol worship.

You may not have "heard of" it, but lots of people do it.

Ok, so who is "lots"?

Sure you were. You were accusing me of placing my own reasoning over scripture. And I am pointing out that EVERYONE uses their own reasoning all the time. Including yourself. You have this illusion that because you decide that God wrote the bible that somehow this decision is not the product of your own reasoning. You also seem to think that reading the bible does not involve your own reasoning, either, which of course it does. You seem to think that because you ignore reason, and accept whatever interpretation of the bible your mind produces as you read it, that you are somehow not then involved in the process: that it's just coming strait from God.

You do place your reasoning over Scripture. When my reasoning doesn't square with Scripture, I don't discount what God has to say to continue in my own reasoning. No, not really about the interpretation thing, if I don't understand I pray and seek council. I used to make things up as I went along, but it got tedious.

It's not. YOU are reading it. YOU are interpreting what you are reading according to YOUR own knowledge and experience of the world. YOU are deciding what the text means, and YOU are deciding whether or not to "obey" it. Then YOU are choosing to ignore everything that YOU'VE just done and pretend all you did was "see and obey". And then YOU were accusing me of doing all the exact same things as if I were somehow being self-centered. At least I will acknowledge my own decisions.

You make is sound as if God wrote Scripture way outside of men's understanding. To a point I would agree with you. Some men try to understand the word according to their own definitions of God, I tried that and didn't get very far. Then, when I really wanted to know what God had to say, I changed my approach from getting the Bible to agree with me, to simply reading and praying.
.
No, God didn't "say" it.

Your god didn't, but "the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever..." and Christ said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away."

[PureX]

Originally posted by Nineveh I place Scripture above men's ideas. Everyone has a foundation, what is yours? Yeah, I use a cap letter, sort of like when I write other proper nouns, that would be proper spelling, not idol worship. You don't seem to grasp that scripture IS men's ideas. Even the idea that God wrote the bible is man's idea. I don't see how you think you are placing scripture "above men's ideas" when to do so is itself a human idea. Can you explain this?
Originally posted by Nineveh You do place your reasoning over Scripture. When my reasoning doesn't square with Scripture, I don't discount what God has to say to continue in my own reasoning. Don't you get it? The fact that you think the words you're reading are God's words IS YOUR REASONING! It's YOU who has reasoned this to be so.
Originally posted by Nineveh I used to make things up as I went along, but it got tedious. You are still making them up, you have just somehow convinced yourself that when you read the words on the paper and decide in your mind that they are telling you, that somehow you are NOT deciding in your mind what the words are telling you.
Originally posted by Nineveh You make it sound as if God wrote Scripture way outside of men's understanding. To a point I would agree with you. Some men try to understand the word according to their own definitions of God, I tried that and didn't get very far. Then, when I really wanted to know what God had to say, I changed my approach from getting the Bible to agree with me, to simply reading and praying.I understand. Because you found it difficult to make sense of the bible for yourself, you find it much easier to simply let other men's explanations rule your mind. That's fine, lots of people do that and I guess it's their perogative. But what I don't get is why you decided to believe that the ideas of these other men, about God, and written down in the books of the bible, have magically become God's own ideas. I can understand you accepting the ideas of other men over your own, about God, but what I don't understand is why you've chosen to idolize those ideas as if they were direct from God's mind.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by PureX
You don't seem to grasp that scripture IS men's ideas. Even the idea that God wrote the bible is man's idea. I don't see how you think you are placing scripture "above men's ideas" when to do so is itself a human idea. Can you explain this?
Don't you get it? The fact that you think the words you're reading are God's words IS YOUR REASONING! It's YOU who has reasoned this to be so.
You are still making them up, you have just somehow convinced yourself that when you read the words on the paper and decide in your mind that they are telling you, that somehow you are NOT deciding in your mind what the words are telling you.
I understand. Because you found it difficult to make sense of the bible for yourself, you find it much easier to simply let other men's explanations rule your mind. That's fine, lots of people do that and I guess it's their perogative. But what I don't get is why you decided to believe that the ideas of these other men, about God, and written down in the books of the bible, have magically become God's own ideas. I can understand you accepting the ideas of other men over your own, about God, but what I don't understand is why you've chosen to idolize those ideas as if they were direct from God's mind.

And what do you base all this "truth" on?

[PureX]

Originally posted by Nineveh
And what do you base all this "truth" on? I'm noticing that you're not offering any explanations, there.

But to answer your question, I base what I believe to be true on observations of reality, experiences interacting with reality, and on the shared wisdom of other people who I also believe base their concepts of what is true on reality. I recognize that because I do not have a grasp of all that is reality, that my understanding of it is incomplete, and therefor subject to errors, but I also understand that even with this susceptability to error we can still make reasonable assumptions as to what is probably true, and then work from there at testing our assumptions.

I understand your point about our needing to reach outside of ourselves for some mechanism with which to test our own conceptions of things, but what I don't understand is why you would choose to deify a religious book and then use it as that mechanism, rather than choosing reality itself. In fact, you do choose reality as that mechanism in many cases, I'm sure, or you would be completely dysfunctional as a human being. Yet you still choose to divert from reality as the basis for your beliefs regarding spiritual matters. Why?

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by PureX
I base what I believe to be true on observations of reality, experiences interacting with reality, and on the shared wisdom of other people who I also believe base their concepts of what is true on reality. I recognize that because I do not have a grasp of all that is reality, that my understanding of it is incomplete, and therefor subject to errors, but I also understand that even with this susceptability to error we can still make reasonable assumptions as to what is probably true, and then work from there at testing our assumptions.

How did you arrive at the belief Scripture is false?

I understand your point about our needing to reach outside of ourselves for some mechanism with which to test our own conceptions of things, but what I don't understand is why you would choose to deify a religious book and then use it as that mechanism, rather than choosing reality itself.

I don't worship a book any more than you worship "observations of reality, experiences interacting with reality, and on the shared wisdom of other people who I also believe base their concepts of what is true on reality". Isn't it more a fundamental basis than a "god"?

In fact, you do choose reality as that mechanism in many cases, I'm sure, or you would be completely dysfunctional as a human being. Yet you still choose to divert from reality as the basis for your beliefs regarding spiritual matters. Why?

I was disfunctional when I thought "god was all and all was god", it was hard to fit evil into that scenario. So, you see? I saw what was going on in reality and understood it after I understood we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of a Perfect God.

[PureX]

Originally posted by Nineveh
How did you arrive at the belief Scripture is false?I don't believe that scripture is false, I just don't believe that God wrote it, or that it's meant to be read literally, or that it's infallable. I think there is a lot of great wisdom in the books of the bible. But truth and wisdom are not a "literal" phenomena, and one size doesn't fit all. Truth is something that we have to seek out within ourselves and be willing to change with time and circumstances, and as WE change and grow. God is not static. God is not contained by any religious books no matter how inspired they are, and neither is truth. And God's relationship with us is not governed by any books, either. That's also dynamic, and has to be able to change as we change: grow as we grow. The books are a guide, only. They are not the regulators of God or us. Well, they are not going to be the regulators of God or me.
Originally posted by Nineveh I don't worship a book any more than you worship "observations of reality, experiences interacting with reality, and on the shared wisdom of other people who I also believe base their concepts of what is true on reality". Isn't it more a fundamental basis than a God?Isn't God the fundamental basis? Isn't reality an expression of God's will? Then if we seek to know God's will, shouldn't we do so by staying "real", by testing our own ideas against the reality God creates for us, moment by moment, and let reality dictate what we will call true, and what we won't? I don't understand why anyone would choose a collection of religious books over all creation as the more accurate representation of God's nature. That just doesn't make sense to me no matter how inspired the books are. Even inspired men still have to write using the words and ideas that they know - and they surely don't know so much. I certainly would not discard their wisdom, but I even more certainly would not allow their wisdom to dictate my relationship with God, life, or creation.

I really do believe it's wrong to let religion come between man and God. And unfortunately, that's almost ALWAYS it's first intent. Some folks can use religion to help them find God's spirit within themselves, and that's a wonderful thing. But when I hear folks saying things about how we have to believe this or that, or follow this or that religious doctrine to "find God", or perform some rituals or avow some creed to gain God's approval, my heart breaks. Because I know the people who say such things have replaced God with their religion. It happens all the time, every day. When Jesus said the path is very narrow, I think this is what he meant. It's why the Pharasees hated him. He saw through their love of religion, and saw no love of God or fellow man on the other side. And they knew he saw this.
Originally posted by Nineveh I was disfunctional when I thought "god was all and all was god", it was hard to fit evil into that scenario. So, you see? I saw what was going on in reality and understood it after I understood we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of a Perfect God. Yes, we do. But then God never expected us to match His glory. He always knew we would be weak and confused and very fallable. But we were always forgiven for this. Anything less would make God less than God, and God's love less than perfect.

[Nineveh]

Isn't reality an expression of God's will? Then if we seek to know God's will, shouldn't we do so by staying "real", by testing our own ideas against the reality God creates for us, moment by moment, and let reality dictate what we will call true, and what we won't? I don't understand why anyone would choose a collection of religious books over all creation as the more accurate representation of God's nature. That just doesn't make sense to me no matter how inspired the books are. Even inspired men still have to write using the words and ideas that they know - and they surely don't know so much. I certainly would not discard their wisdom, but I even more certainly would not allow their wisdom to dictate my relationship with God, life, or creation.

Well, it doesn't make sence to me to place what others think and what I myself might believe over what God has revealed in Scripture. God doesn't have to agree with me. In fact before I repented I often found myself at odds with Him.

I really do believe it's wrong to let religion come between man and God. And unfortunately, that's almost ALWAYS it's first intent.

We agree.

Some folks can use religion to help them find God's spirit within themselves, and that's a wonderful thing. But when I hear folks saying things about how we have to believe this or that, or follow this or that religious doctrine to "find God", or perform some rituals or avow some creed to gain God's approval, my heart breaks. Because I know the people who say such things have replaced God with their religion. It happens all the time, every day. When Jesus said the path is very narrow, I think this is what he meant. It's why the Pharasees hated him. He saw through their love of religion, and saw no love of God or fellow man on the other side. And they knew he saw this.
Yes, we do. But then God never expected us to match His glory. He always knew we would be weak and confused and very fallable. But we were always forgiven for this. Anything less would make God less than God, and God's love less than perfect.

Ok. So after all that I want to get back to your thread title "Are You In The Lord's Church?" If we are speaking of the Jesus Christ of the Scriptures then my answer is, if you have come to Him on His terms, yes, you are in His Church. Until then, no.

Have you ever read the Bible? If you had to lable your beliefs what would you call them?

[PureX]

Originally posted by Nineveh Well, it doesn't make sence to me to place what others think and what I myself might believe over what God has revealed in Scripture. God doesn't have to agree with me. In fact before I repented I often found myself at odds with Him. Reality is not "what others think". If you believe in a creator-God, reality is that creation, and is the direct expression of God's will, and by extension, of God's nature. A religious book, on the other hand IS the product of "what others think". Sadly, you have turned this completely around, and imagine that the bible is not the thoughts of other men, but the thoughts of God, while you ignore reality as truth. This seems very sick, very cultish, to me, like some sort of deep spiritual illness. So deep that I can see that most of what I'm writing, you're not comprehending at all.
Originally posted by Nineveh Ok. So after all that I want to get back to your thread title "Are You In The Lord's Church?" If we are speaking of the Jesus Christ of the Scriptures then my answer is, if you have come to Him on His terms, yes, you are in His Church. Until then, no.There are no "terms". God is not turning anyone away because of "terms". That's religion that does that. You have them confused. You still don't understand that the bible IS religion. God is reality. God is truth. Religion and the bible are only Judao-Christian conceptualizations of God and truth. I can see that you're just not going to understand this.
Originally posted by Nineveh Have you ever read the Bible? If you had to lable your beliefs what would you call them? I would label them what they are: my beliefs. And if I had not read the bible, we could not be having this discussion.

[Nineveh]

PureX,
Ok.
What more could we say to each other that hasn't been said twice?

[servent101]

Nineveh


I am developing a litmus test for dialogue with "Christians"

If you believe that Hebrews 9:27 is the instruction that God has revealed to the church on reincarnation - that these nine words - taken out of context is the way God has given you instruction for you to understand reincarnation, please say so.

If you understand the doctrine of hell to be that of a literal nature - that there is a God who will torture each and every human in eternal flames for an eternity if they reject the Gospel of Christ - please affirm your belief.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Servent,
Heb. 9:26-28 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

I do not think reincarnation is supported anywhere in the Bible.

"that there is a God who will torture each and every human in eternal flames for an eternity if they reject the Gospel of Christ"

On the Hell thread that Dave started, I stated that it isn't God that "tortures" but men cut off from God have no hope. They torture themselves, they wanted to be apart from God, and after judgement, they get eternity to regret it.


But to the topic:
"Are You In The Lord's Church?"

If Lord means Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ said I am the Truth the Life and the Way, no one comes to the Father but by Me, then one who has not come to Christ on Christ's terms is not in the Lord's Church. Would you dis/agree?

[servent101]

But to the topic:
"Are You In The Lord's Church?"

If Lord means Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ said I am the Truth the Life and the Way, no one comes to the Father but by Me, then one who has not come to Christ on Christ's terms is not in the Lord's Church. Would you dis/agree?

Most orthodox minded folk take this verse to the extent that only the message that is recorded in the Bible is the Lord’s “ no one comes to the Father but through me” – that apart from anything that is in the Bible – if you hold to any other inspiration than what is in the Bible that you are lost – not in the Lord’s fold. For this to be true, which it is not, the Holy Spirit no longer leads men into all truth, but what does? – for most orthodox minded folk the self professed unable to be guided by the Holy Spirit decided that for among other reasons their own lack of ability to speak by the Spirit’s leading, and for another their inability to tell falsehood from truth they decided to make an idol of the writings that were inspired by the Holy Spirit – and in many cases making themselves and their followers twice as worthy to go to hell.

Christ’s terms are not literally “no one comes to the Father but through me” but rather that He is the Way, the truth and the life… anyone who is “Spiritual” accepts the teachings of Christ, and acknowledges the grace afforded to us by His ministry… but the “havoc” created by the interpretations of the folk that admit they no longer can speak – lead of the Holy Spirit, and they and their followers cannot tell truth from falsehood, it is sheer rubbish to take the I am the way, the truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but through me… as referring to the dogma of doctrines including the dogmatic interpretation of “I am the way, the truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but through me” to have anything to do with the acceptance of the dogma of men that leads to what is called fundamentalism or literalism or just plain stupidity.

All higher thought is the same, and eventually most fundamentalists come to understand this – though it is a bar room brawl type of attitude that they have towards Jesus being the only way – for reasons that I am trying to explain. There are many people in all world faiths that recognize the life and ministry and the blessings that Jesus has brought to the human race… there is no need to abandon the other religions in the world, though they are often as dogmatic about their faith and down on Christianity – but in the individual soul of the people, many have, like in the orthodox minded Christian Churches, accepted the truth of God’s dealings and simply avoid the bar room brawling of fundamentalism.

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by servent101
Most orthodox minded folk take this verse to the extent that only the message that is recorded in the Bible is the Lord’s “ no one comes to the Father but through me” – that apart from anything that is in the Bible – if you hold to any other inspiration than what is in the Bible that you are lost – not in the Lord’s fold. For this to be true, which it is not, the Holy Spirit no longer leads men into all truth, but what does? – for most orthodox minded folk the self professed unable to be guided by the Holy Spirit decided that for among other reasons their own lack of ability to speak by the Spirit’s leading, and for another their inability to tell falsehood from truth they decided to make an idol of the writings that were inspired by the Holy Spirit – and in many cases making themselves and their followers twice as worthy to go to hell.

So if a spirit leads you to do or believe something that the Spirit inspired to be written down in the Bible as a sin, then the spirit guiding you against the (Spirit inspired) Bible is right over the Bible? Exactly how should we "test the spirits", then?

Christ’s terms are not literally “no one comes to the Father but through me” but rather that He is the Way, the truth and the life… anyone who is “Spiritual” accepts the teachings of Christ, and acknowledges the grace afforded to us by His ministry… but the “havoc” created by the interpretations of the folk that admit they no longer can speak – lead of the Holy Spirit, and they and their followers cannot tell truth from falsehood, it is sheer rubbish to take the I am the way, the truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but through me… as referring to the dogma of doctrines including the dogmatic interpretation of “I am the way, the truth and the Life, no man comes to the Father but through me” to have anything to do with the acceptance of the dogma of men that leads to what is called fundamentalism or literalism or just plain stupidity.

"One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", really doesn't mean that? What does it take to get to heaven, or do you believe in a literal heaven?

All higher thought is the same, and eventually most fundamentalists come to understand this – though it is a bar room brawl type of attitude that they have towards Jesus being the only way – for reasons that I am trying to explain. There are many people in all world faiths that recognize the life and ministry and the blessings that Jesus has brought to the human race… there is no need to abandon the other religions in the world, though they are often as dogmatic about their faith and down on Christianity – but in the individual soul of the people, many have, like in the orthodox minded Christian Churches, accepted the truth of God’s dealings and simply avoid the bar room brawling of fundamentalism.

Do you mean that all are going to heaven to be with God even if they hate Him?

So, after those 3 paragraphs, are you agreeing or disagreeing with:
If Lord means Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ said I am the Truth the Life and the Way, no one comes to the Father but by Me, then one who has not come to Christ on Christ's terms is not in the Lord's Church.

[servent101]

Ninehveha

So if a spirit leads you to do or believe something that the Spirit inspired to be written down in the Bible as a sin, then the spirit guiding you against the (Spirit inspired) Bible is right over the Bible? Exactly how should we "test the spirits", then?

"One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", really doesn't mean that? What does it take to get to heaven, or do you believe in a literal heaven?

"One mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus", really doesn't mean that? What does it take to get to heaven, or do you believe in a literal heaven?

Do you mean that all are going to heaven to be with God even if they hate Him?

So, after those 3 paragraphs, are you agreeing or disagreeing with:
If Lord means Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ said I am the Truth the Life and the Way, no one comes to the Father but by Me, then one who has not come to Christ on Christ's terms is not in the Lord's Church.

One can accept the Lord, and realize the above “quoted” is a pile of rubbish that only clouds and perverts the Lord’s Ministry. Ninehveha your posts are nothing but an affront to the common sense of people – People don’t need you to be there making sure that your “closed cannon” is idolized as much as the person of our Lord, or the ministry of the Spirit. This brokerage process – is an abomination to our Lord’s Ministry. But if your caught in it, as I suppose you are, there is not Scripture verse that will lead you out, at least not one that I have found yet… you will eventually have to rely on the good sense God has given you.

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

[wickwoman]

I believe human beings throughout history have attempted to put God into words. The Bible is an example of this. There is a fear related to not knowing. And, sometimes people would rather make something up than dangle over that precipice of the unknown. I believe Jesus’ ministry was polluted in this way. When I read his words I wonder how Christianity could have possibly been founded upon this man. He in no way described the behavior I see in the early church. The “formalization” of his words was such an injustice to the true depth and meaning that he conveyed. And, not so much what he said was important as what he did and how he lived.

And, IF he did say “I am the way,” why couldn’t it have meant he represented what every human being is, God incarnate. If we were created by God and Jesus was conceived by God, what is the difference? Is it not more miraculous to make a man from dust than to take an already made woman and put a child into her uterus? Is not the “dust man” as much God as Emmanuel? IF God breathed life into Adam, how much of what is in us is God? And, how is this not as much God as Jesus was? For that matter, every rock, every tree, every mountain is God in material form or flesh. What is the difference?

Here is a problem. The original premise: “God wrote the Bible.” And from this every idea is spawned. But if the original idea is flawed, then the whole system of beliefs is. Why not, as Purex has suggested, observe God in all that he/she has created? In our own hearts for that matter?

I will point out several reasons why the Bible may be wrong or at the very least misunderstood:

1. Love is the most basic principle and the foundation of the universe. The God of the Old Testament is not always loving.
2. God’s will is that none should perish. However, the Bible seems to indicate that God’s will will not come to pass. How can this be if God is all powerful?
3. God is represented by the Bible and by Jesus as a loving Father. How can a loving father send his child to an eternal torment from which there shall be no rescue?
4. Why do many human beings find the Bible so easy to accept? Because the Bible is a very human book. It contains principals and concepts that human beings have been following since the beginning of time. Do we expect that God is human like us? That God would really say “an eye for an eye?” Or that “vengeance is mine?” This doesn’t sound like the words of a deity. This sounds like the words of a man.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by servent101
Ninehveha

Well, that's cute, serpent :)

One can accept the Lord, and realize the above “quoted” is a pile of rubbish that only clouds and perverts the Lord’s Ministry. Ninehveha your posts are nothing but an affront to the common sense of people – People don’t need you to be there making sure that your “closed cannon” is idolized as much as the person of our Lord, or the ministry of the Spirit. This brokerage process – is an abomination to our Lord’s Ministry. But if your caught in it, as I suppose you are, there is not Scripture verse that will lead you out, at least not one that I have found yet… you will eventually have to rely on the good sense God has given you.

Do you believe Jesus Christ died for your sins?

[Nineveh]

wickwoman,
So do you believe you are part of the Lord's Church (Lord being Jesus Christ)?

[wickwoman]

Dear Ninevah:

I am a human being, so that makes me one of the chosen.

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by wickwoman
Dear Ninevah:

I am a human being, so that makes me one of the chosen.
Ok, I'll bite...
Chosen to what?
:eek:

[servent101]

Nineveha

Do you believe Jesus Christ died for your sins?


What part of

People don’t need you to be there making sure that your “closed cannon” is idolized as much as the person of our Lord, or the ministry of the Spirit. This brokerage process – is an abomination to our Lord’s Ministry.

don't you understand?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Serpent,
Do you believe evil exists?

[servent101]

Have a nice weekend...

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Well,
As insightful as these answers have been here on PureX's thread,...

It seems easy enough for me to understand if one chooses to belong to, worship, be saved by, reside with, follow, (etc) the God of the Bible, then one will do as the Bible instructs according to that God's own words.

What you choose to believe, what you choose to put faith in will lead you to your goal, have no doubt. So, if you choose to be with the Creator God of the Bible, then you need to repent, and put your faith in Christ. That is what the God of the Bible tells us to do. If you choose to be apart from Him, He will honor your choice as well. So if the God of the Bible is your God, get aquainted with His message.

[servent101]

Nineveh

What part of


People don’t need you to be there making sure that your “closed cannon” is idolized as much as the person of our Lord, or the ministry of the Spirit. This brokerage process – is an abomination to our Lord’s Ministry.


don't you understand?


With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Free-Agent Smith]

Originally posted by servent101
Nineveh
What part of
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
People don’t need you to be there making sure that your “closed cannon” is idolized as much as the person of our Lord, or the ministry of the Spirit. This brokerage process – is an abomination to our Lord’s Ministry.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
don't you understand?
With Christ's Love
Servent101
I would suggest this is how Nineveh learned about God of Scripture and tests the spirits. Nineveh knows she is not needed for any brokerage process. Examin the Scripture for yourself.

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

With Christ's Love
Servent101Make sure you are witnessing to the Truth in Christ's love.

[servent101]

Wickwoman
Here is a problem. The original premise: “God wrote the Bible.” And from this every idea is spawned. But if the original idea is flawed, then the whole system of beliefs is. Why not, as Purex has suggested, observe God in all that he/she has created? In our own hearts for that matter?

I will point out several reasons why the Bible may be wrong or at the very least misunderstood:

1. Love is the most basic principle and the foundation of the universe. The God of the Old Testament is not always loving.
If we look at life… observe God in all that he/she has created – we see that all today is not controlled by love – there is a hell and there are consequences to our actions – consequences that not only effect the actions of the individual but also create consequences for seemingly innocent bystanders. Reality is that there is a hell – though it is not the - orthodox hell – there is misery and much much misery in some cases. If one can conceive of a God in all this misery – many can’t, then one realizes that God allows His creation to suffer the consequences of living in the association of other like-minded beings who are learning the lesson that there are consequences of their actions.

2. God’s will is that none should perish. However, the Bible seems to indicate that God’s will will not come to pass. How can this be if God is all powerful?
Here you are using the Christian dogma against itself. You will prove that the statement is erroneous, and you know it, you are just trying to get the person to doubt the adherence to their dogma. We cannot save ourselves, our dependence on the Lord – to escape the “hell” we create for ourselves (collectively and individually) to some people negates the possibility of a God, and to others deepens the necessity to have a savior. But the ill thought out conceived orthodox idea of a savior really does the “sane intellect” any good is a question worth considering. But what does our Savior do? –correctly Jesus affords us more time to live under God’s grace because He was willing to suffer through the hardships involved in the possibility of our coming around – out of our ignorance of sin and to understand the nature of God – which is like Himself – To forgive one another and to pray for one another, and to be willing to go through persecution to bring our fellow human beings into some greater understanding of the truth
3. God is represented by the Bible and by Jesus as a loving Father. How can a loving father send his child to an eternal torment from which there shall be no rescue?
There is the - orthodox hell – and they are wrong – there is the possibility of eternal separation from God – but the likelihood is not there.

4. Why do many human beings find the Bible so easy to accept? Because the Bible is a very human book. It contains principals and concepts that human beings have been following since the beginning of time. Do we expect that God is human like us? That God would really say “an eye for an eye?” Or that “vengeance is mine?” This doesn’t sound like the words of a deity. This sounds like the words of a man.
The vengeance of God – Purex has suggested, observe God in all that he/she has created?
In observing all that God has created it is pretty hard not to realize that there is repayment for our shortcomings – that we suffer from our own hand. The understanding that our suffering leads us to repentance is needed to understand the nature of God. When seemingly innocent people suffer – if it is the end of their existence, it seems a waist, but death is not he end of existence – and the orthodox concept of hell does no justice to the Nature of God. If one suffers or dies for what is considered none of their fault – it is a crime that is placed on the shoulders of the human being – or nature of the human race, and in so doing it is the responsibility of the human race to find the “light” or “knowledge” or solution to our nature that will stop ourselves from continuing down the same dark alley that is the cause of the unjust suffering of our species at our own hands. That light is presented in the Good News – that light being the solution to our debase nature that is the root of all of our problems. I haven’t found as yet a better way of finding a solution to the problems we all face. And I am not in the least unique by rejecting the orthodox or organized church’s attempt to brokerage the way – making the written word an idol. There are many who see the truth in the life and ministry of Jesus and reject the so called orthodox interpretations of their dogma.

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

[servent101]

Agent Smith

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Since you know so much about the Bible... what is it that Paul said that they were checking the Scripture to find out if it were true?

If you don't know... or if you want to take the passage to mean that the only way to tell whatever Paul said was true... was by checking the scripture... well surely you see that this is ironious. But this the conditioning of the orthodox have conditoned people with, but how can you know that what I say is true - look in the Bible - what was it that Paul said that they were checking the Scripture to find out if it were true? - you don't know - you just apply the scripture across the board - insane young man - insane.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Free-Agent Smith]

Said by Servent101,

And I am not in the least unique by rejecting the orthodox or organized church’s attempt to brokerage the way – making the written word an idol. There are many who see the truth in the life and ministry of Jesus and reject the so called orthodox interpretations of their dogma.

Did you learn this by searching the Scriptures? I ask since you reject the so called orthodox interpretations. Help me understand how you view Scripture.

[Free-Agent Smith]

Originally posted by servent101
Agent Smith
Since you know so much about the Bible... what is it that Paul said that they were checking the Scripture to find out if it were true?They were making sure that what Paul said agreed with Scripture. Paul praised them for it over the Thessalonians.

If you don't know... or if you want to take the passage to mean that the only way to tell whatever Paul said was true... was by checking the scripture... well surely you see that this is ironious. But this the conditioning of the orthodox have conditoned people with, but how can you know that what I say is true - look in the Bible - what was it that Paul said that they were checking the Scripture to find out if it were true? - you don't know - you just apply the scripture across the board - insane young man - insane.

With Christ's Love

Servent101 Why am I considered insane? I am insane for choosing Scripture over what you say?

[servent101]

Agent Smith

Did you learn this by searching the Scriptures? I ask since you reject the so called orthodox interpretations. Help me understand how you view Scripture.

In the last post… I posted the request that you tell me what exactly did Paul write that the Bereans were searching the Scriptures as true.

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Now if you search the scriptures and find out where on earth you get the idea that you need to search out every fact to see if Scripture can confirm it. Some facts can be… but what facts are we talking about? Generalizing simply does not cut the mustard.

Did you learn this by searching the Scriptures? I ask since you reject the so called orthodox interpretations. Help me understand how you view Scripture.
Hopefully you will see that you are taking Acts 17:11 out of context, but I will send you to a site where I posted a longer essay on the matter.

http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=369765#post369765

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

[Free-Agent Smith]

Originally posted by servent101
Agent Smith
In the last post… I posted the request that you tell me what exactly did Paul write that the Bereans were searching the Scriptures as true.

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Now if you search the scriptures and find out where on earth you get the idea that you need to search out every fact to see if Scripture can confirm it. Some facts can be… but what facts are we talking about? Generalizing simply does not cut the mustard.

Hopefully you will see that you are taking Acts 17:11 out of context, but I will send you to a site where I posted a longer essay on the matter.

http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=369765#post369765

With Christ’s Love

Servent101


In the quoted Scripture the Beareans were checking to make sure that what someone who was speaking for Christ was speaking the thruth.
If you saying something, speaking "in the name of Christ", I will test your words by Scripture also.

If I am incorrect, comparing your words with Scripture, if there is a disagreement, who is right?

[servent101]

Agent Smith;

In the quoted Scripture the Beareans were checking to make sure that what someone who was speaking for Christ was speaking the thruth.
If you saying something, speaking "in the name of Christ", I will test your words by Scripture also.

If I am incorrect, comparing your words with Scripture, if there is a disagreement, who is right?

Your assumption is an assumption... where is it stated

"Beareans were checking to make sure that what someone who was speaking for Christ was speaking the thruth."

I have followed the example of the Beareans and found that you are not speaking for Christ... you are just taking a verse out of context and using it to add to the misconception of your ideas.

You paraphrase the verse completely out of context, rendering your will to serve God over to a deluding spirit. Repent!

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

servent,
"I have followed the example of the Beareans and found that you are not speaking for Christ"

So are you holding Scripture over what Agent Smith is saying?

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Nineveh
servent,
"I have followed the example of the Beareans and found that you are not speaking for Christ"

So are you holding Scripture over what Agent Smith is saying?

Whoops! Looks like Nineveh caught servent101 trying to adhere to scripture. :shocked:

Do we have a new convert to the closed canon team? :D

[servent101]

Nineveh

The scripture - that the Bereans were more noble than the Thesolonials in that they searched the scriptures to see if what Paul said was correct - is no way a revelation to suggest that every thing Spiritual can be checked by Scripture - or the idea that the closed canon of Christian Scripture is the only source of Spiritual knowledge. I have checked the Scriptures to see if this is so... and it is not,

Lightson I hope this answers your question.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

You say it is not so, Agent Smith says it is so, who should Light Son and I believe, on what basis should we judge between you?

[Free-Agent Smith]

Maybe we should search .................. Scripture ... to find out? :shocked:

[servent101]

To search scripture to see if what is said lines up with scripture is noble... not comanded, dn in no ways an afformation that everything can be searced through the closed canon of Christian Scripture. Some things can, some things cant.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Free-Agent Smith]

Originally posted by servent101
To search scripture to see if what is said lines up with scripture is noble... not comanded, dn in no ways an afformation that everything can be searced through the closed canon of Christian Scripture. Some things can, some things cant.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

You're right. It's not commanded. God shouldn't have to tell us every slight detail. But it is a good way to learn Scripture. That's how we know what God wants us to do. If we use logic I'm sure we can figure out the small details without much of a problem, especially when we use Scripture for guidance.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by servent101
To search scripture to see if what is said lines up with scripture is noble... not comanded, dn in no ways an afformation that everything can be searced through the closed canon of Christian Scripture. Some things can, some things cant.

On this issue though, "You say it is not so, Agent Smith says it is so, who should Light Son and I believe, on what basis should we judge between you?"

I'm not talking every detail. One shouldn't have to search Scripture to see if stealing is ok. I mean in general. If there is a problem, like there seems to be between you and Agent Smith on this issue, who should LightSon and I believe, how do we know which is being Truthful? You say one thing, Agent Smith says the direct opposite. By what should LightSon and I judge beween you?

[servent101]

Ninheva

If there is a problem, like there seems to be between you and Agent Smith on this issue, who should LightSon and I believe, how do we know which is being Truthful? You say one thing, Agent Smith says the direct opposite. By what should LightSon and I judge beween you?

Actually Agent Smith and I set it up that way so that you would have to learn how to search Scripture for yourself... and if that doesn't work we will both agree on something - like lets say you giving us all your money, and see if you will then know that is what you are suppose to do... seems to work in some religions,,, why not with Agent /smith and myself? - By the way, how much money do you have?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by servent101
Actually Agent Smith and I set it up that way so that you would have to learn how to search Scripture for yourself... and if that doesn't work we will both agree on something - like lets say you giving us all your money, and see if you will then know that is what you are suppose to do... seems to work in some religions,,, why not with Agent /smith and myself? - By the way, how much money do you have?

Ok, so what you are saying is you really don't want to divulge by what standard you judge a thing to be true. It's apparent what Agent Smith has as his foundation. Let's see where you look:

they are not my precepts; they are the four legs that the cow stands on. Hindu origin (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=385934#post385934).

I see why folks who claim to speak in the Name of Christ while denying Scripture as the source of their doctrine become hesitant when asked what their basis is.

PureX has chosen his perception of reality and those who preceive reality the same way he does.

You have believe: "intelligence has to be purified" (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=366785#post366785) through the lens of hindu precepts to understand Scripture.

Whereas I choose Scripture over PureX's, your, and every other man made docrine.

[Free-Agent Smith]

Originally posted by servent101
Ninheva



Actually Agent Smith and I set it up that way so that you would have to learn how to search Scripture for yourself... and if that doesn't work we will both agree on something - like lets say you giving us all your money, and see if you will then know that is what you are suppose to do... seems to work in some religions,,, why not with Agent /smith and myself? - By the way, how much money do you have?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

My posts were to you not to Nineveh. You should search Scripture for truth just as much, if not more, as anyone else.

[romanbear]

Hi Purex;
a quote from you;
What any of this has to do with church buildings, denominations, and organizations I don't know or care. We can be Christians in religious organizations or out, and we can refuse to be Christians in religious organizations or out. There is no intrinsic connection between Christ and religious organizations.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is that conection you're looking for. Jesus is the way to Salvation. Those who believe in Christ, being God who came in the flesh, are the Church. The Church is not a building or denomination you're right there.

Jesus Christ is the cornner stone. The Word in the flesh. The Church of Jesus Christ is the only orginzation of true religion. You cannot be a Christian without Christ.

If a denomination or any orginization is Christ centered. Then Christ has everything to do with it.

In Christ;
Romanbear

[servent101]

Nineveh

Whereas I choose Scripture over PureX's, your, and every other man made docrine.

I see your point, and you are trying to do well, and I commend you - keep up the good work!

What you don't realize yet is that your attempt to place the canon of closed Christian Scripture on the same pedestal as the Ministry of our Lord, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father is not commanded to you in the Bible, and is counter productive to the "correct" understanding of Scripture.

You are almost exchanging the living Word of God for your life today in the same way you would try to fix your modern car with the manual from a model T Ford. The basics and principles are there and are the right instructions for the model T – but they cause chaos if you try to follow them on your 2002 BMW.

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by servent101
What you don't realize yet is that your attempt to place the canon of closed Christian Scripture on the same pedestal as the Ministry of our Lord, the Holy Spirit, and God the Father is not commanded to you in the Bible, and is counter productive to the "correct" understanding of Scripture.

Simply reading and praying got me a whole lot closer to Christ than your hindu precepts have gotten you toward "correct" understanding of Scripture.

You are almost exchanging the living Word of God for your life today in the same way you would try to fix your modern car with the manual from a model T Ford. The basics and principles are there and are the right instructions for the model T – but they cause chaos if you try to follow them on your 2002 BMW.

No, what I am doing is rejecting understanding Scripture through the lenses of men.

Tell me, do you believe in your heart God raised Jesus from the dead?

[PureX]

Originally posted by romanbear
Hi Purex;
a quote from you;


Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is that conection you're looking for. Jesus is the way to Salvation. Those who believe in Christ, being God who came in the flesh, are the Church. The Church is not a building or denomination you're right there.

Jesus Christ is the cornner stone. The Word in the flesh. The Church of Jesus Christ is the only orginzation of true religion. You cannot be a Christian without Christ.

If a denomination or any orginization is Christ centered. Then Christ has everything to do with it.

In Christ;
Romanbear What you are describing are religious beliefs. I'm sure that for people who experienced Christ in their lives through this religious conception, it would seem that their way of experiencing Christ is the only way. After all, how would they know any different?

But I don't come from that experience. I have experienced Christ in my life outside of religioun, and separate from it. And I know many others who have as well. So I know from personal experience that religious beliefs are not necessary. But unfortunately, I find that those who have no direct personal experience of what I'm saying just can't understand how it could be so.

I call this unfortunate because I think a person who has knowledge of the religion, and experience of Christ from outside of the religion, has a lot fuller understanding of the difference between religion and spirituality, and how they inter-relate as well.

[Berean Todd]

Originally posted by servent101
To search scripture to see if what is said lines up with scripture is noble... not comanded, dn in no ways an afformation that everything can be searced through the closed canon of Christian Scripture. Some things can, some things cant.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

Are you sure we are told that we shouldn't look to God's Word for our instructions?

Psalm 1:1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, Nor stand in the path of sinners, Nor sit in the seat of scoffers!
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.

Joshua 1:8 "This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.

2 Tim 3:14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Psalm 119:14 I have rejoiced in the way of Your testimonies, As much as in all riches.
16 I shall delight in Your statutes; I shall not forget Your word.
Ps 119:35 Make me walk in the path of Your commandments, For I delight in it.


Now that's just a quick smattering I chose off the top of my head. As for weather, we should trust man (your teaching) over the Word ... well there are plenty of them, but for now I will use just this:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight

[servent101]

Confirmation of the self as knower:

Nineveh - A lot of the "thought" in this posting is from a book titled - Woman’s Ways of Knowing - - The Development of Self Voice and Mind - 1987 Winner, Distinguished Publication Award Association for women in Psychology.... I spent a few short hours in the book trying to present to you some "case" of how you can know. This is by no means a complete "treatment" of the subject - the subject of "conformation of the self as knower" is one that takes decades to understand and compile.

A lot of the thought here is simply plagiarized from the text of the book. The application to religion is my own. Enjoy.

In the patriarchal society one is subjugated to a process of having their ideas respected, both by themselves and others by learning to think in complex contextual ways. People both male and female are admitted into "fraternities" of powerful knowers based on their ability to prove beyond reasonable doubt that they have learnt to think according to the "standard" of the people preceding them.

The Lord though, did not follow this path, nor do the first four Books of the Bible and for that matter most of the New Testament does not instruct people this way. Suppose we were to ask ourselves - What do we really need to know? Firstly for most people we need to know that we already posses the tools to construct some powerful truths - for the general "authority" is generally negligent in assuring people of this. In the orthodox church today conformation as a thinker and as knowledgeable and even as wise are granted after one accepts this patriarchal process of determining validity, not in the validity of what is known by the person.

Conformation of our understanding, the validity of our intelligence, can be based on the reasonableness of the Person and Ministry of The Lord. People can be trusted and can trust themselves in accepting the Person of Jesus as Lord... on the basis of the Person who is presented, not as instructed by the Word, but through the "Preaching" of the Good News. For the orthodox church, though, conformation and community are prerequisites not on the basis of the person's belief in God, or the Christ... but based on the acceptance of the generally "patriarchal" standard of acquirering knowledge. This acceptance of people into their fraternity of likeminded conditioned thinkers and scholars is not what Christ established.

Constructivist - an alternative to typical patriarchal thinking, seek to stretch the outer boundaries of their consciousness - by making the unconscious conscious, by consulting and listening to others and staying alert to all the currents and undercurrents of life about them, by imagining themselves inside another person or idea or writing that they want to come to know and understand. Construcvists become passionate knowers - allowing feeling to inform the actualization of concepts to the reasoning process.

For the "orthodox church" to accommodate the constructivist's thinking the "expert" must reveal an appreciation for complexity and a sense of humility about their knowledge. Constructivists value expertise but back away from designating anyone an expert. The process of evaluating and continually reevaluating the fact/fiction about knowledge is left to the responsibility of the individual - not the expert. To have an expert try to designate himself or herself to the task - is simply an insane possibility, based on the many intrinsic processes that a constructivist goes through to determine the validity of a subject. Granted there is some need to confer on matters, but where ambiguity may be troubling to the typical patriarchal way of determining an absolute, ambiguity and complexity actually entice the constructivist to peruse deeper levels of understanding and find the essential essences of what is there.

Typically in patriarchal means of ascertaining - once knowers assume the general relativity of knowledge, exclusive hypothetical deductive inquiry is used to construct and reconstruct frames of reference. But the Constructivist, simple questions are as rare as simple answers. Constructivists often take, and often insist upon taking, a position outside a particular concept or frame of reference and look back on "who" said what to "whom". "Why" what is being said is said. The typical patriarchal way of thinking does not take into account the complexities of the concept and tries dutifully to follow it's "standard" of validation by those who preceded them.

When things are in apparent disagreement, Constructivists are challenged, not daunted. Contradiction and conflict only serve to heighten the exhilaration of finding the truths that cut across the interests and biases that lie within a particular concept - usually a previously patriarchal viewed perspective. There is always a new excitement about knowledge and the power of the mind. There is an emphasis on a never-ending search for truth - Truth becomes more elusive the more we compare, explore, and apply the concept with the world around us. Devising an absolute, and steeping it in tradition, simply does not compare.


With Christ's Love

Servent101

[PureX]

at we think we do know is based on inaccurate, incomplete, and flawed information. You say we can construct some powerful truths, but in fact we have no way of knowing if our constructions are true or not. And we are just as likely to have constructed powerful illusions that we mistook for truth. I know, I've DONE it! And following these threads is ample evidence that I am not alone.

No books written by men OR God is going to change this fact. Our most outstanding feature is our own ignorance.

[servent101]

pureX

Your own logic seems to becoming a fact - something akin to an oxymoron. So the obvious question is then why are you so sure you can't be sure? - Which you say you base on observation - in the circles you are in? -what do you base your truth on? - Is it based on any empirical study of the mind? Or do you know what that is?

I worry that you have followed your train of thought to long, that you have convinced yourself for certainty that one cannot be certain of anything - will you eventually martyr yourself for the cause - take up arms? -engage in physical violence - as is the case of a lot of people who take their concept beyond what is reasonable? Could this be true of uncertainty?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Servent,
Confirmation of the self as knower:

Nineveh - A lot of the "thought" in this posting is from a book titled - Woman’s Ways of Knowing - - The Development of Self Voice and Mind - 1987 Winner, Distinguished Publication Award Association for women in Psychology.... I spent a few short hours in the book trying to present to you some "case" of how you can know. This is by no means a complete "treatment" of the subject - the subject of "conformation of the self as knower" is one that takes decades to understand and compile.

If it's all the same to you, I don't need hindu precepts, or this book to understand Scripture, but thanks anyway.

[servent101]

Look closely here Nineveh – my previous posting was long.

not as instructed by the Word

in context

Conformation of our understanding, the validity of our intelligence, can be based on the reasonableness of the Person and Ministry of The Lord. People can be trusted and can trust themselves in accepting the Person of Jesus as Lord... on the basis of the Person who is presented, not as instructed by the Word, but through the "Preaching" of the Good News. For the orthodox church, though, conformation and community are prerequisites not on the basis of the person's belief in God, or the Christ... but based on the acceptance of the generally "patriarchal" standard of aquerering knowledge. This acceptance of people into their fraternity of likeminded conditioned thinkers and scholars is not what Christ established.

To explain the sentence... People can be trusted and can trust themselves in accepting the Person of Jesus as Lord... on the basis of the Person who is presented, not as instructed by the Word, but through the "Preaching" of the Good News.

and more specifically not as instructed by the Word

Explanation - We are simply not instructed by the Word to accept the Person of Jesus Christ based on the accuracy of the Written Word. To be plainer - The Person of Jesus by His Life and example are proof of the validity of Jesus, His Life and His example.

The vilifying of our faith based on the orthodox mindset - that the word is true, therefore the person of Christ is true... simply is not there in the Word. So the statement I made not as instructed by the Word is quite accurate because the Word makes no such claim as to faith being based on - "as instructed by the Word."- Preaching yes! but the closed canon of Christian Scripture's authenticity No, The closed canon of Christian Scriptures Inerrancy No. The closed cannon of Christian Scripture's Absoluteness - No. The closed cannon of Christian Scriptures accuracy - No. The closed cannon of Christian Scriptures authorship - No. Personally I have never met an orthodox minded Christian who substitutes belief in the Person of Christ with the "orthodox mindset" whom I would say has an understanding that satisfies his or her soul, nor a life that exemplifies the Lord, nor the pure Love of God that comes from pure unadulterated faith in the Person of Jesus Christ and fellowship with the Holy Spirit. The majority of them are improving their Spirituality, but there are enough that are more hindered by their orthodox mindset that I have for one taken to the task of exposing the orthodox mindset as a heresy, at least till the end of the year. Faith in the Person and Ministry of the Lord can be established and is rightfully established by that Ministry - through preaching - not on creating some infallibility doctrine of the account of that ministry.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Servent,
Do you believe with your heart God raised Jesus from the dead?

[servent101]

Nineveh

Do you believe with your heart God raised Jesus from the dead?

After many discussions on matters of faith with orthodox minded Christians I have determined that the far and vast majority are simply not able to discern anything – that their faith is nothing more than a mindless energy feed. So I politely decline to share my faith with - you – You have shown no sign of intelligence being active in any of your posts, though you do seem sincere.

Personally I have never met an orthodox minded Christian who substitutes belief in the Person of Christ with the "orthodox mindset" whom I would say has an understanding that satisfies his or her soul, nor a life that exemplifies the Lord, nor the pure Love of God that comes from pure unadulterated faith in the Person of Jesus Christ and fellowship with the Holy Spirit.

Unless you make some attempt at intelligent apologetics… I will not respond to you as an intelligent person… sorry but you appear to me to have the symptoms exhibiting a mindless energy feed that you somehow think is faith. Sorry I will not talk to you about my faith.

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Servent,
Q: Do you believe with your heart God raised Jesus from the dead?

[LightSon]

Originally posted by servent101
... I politely decline to share my faith with - you – You have shown no sign of intelligence being active in any of your posts, though you do seem sincere.

How very polite and condescending of you servent101.
This posture gives you optimum control. You are free to assert whatever you want. You have to support nothing. Even when folks politely ask for clarification, you defer based on them having "no sign of intelligence". How very convenient.

We are still waiting for you to shore up your position from the scriptures. Until you do, you are manifesting a mindless energy feed. What do you know of Christ that you did not learn from the scriptures? Where did you learn how to be saved, if not from the scriptures? If your position is valid, you should be able to defend it in the scriptures. The reason you can’t or won’t, is because that would cast you in the mold of being an “orthodox” individual, which you despise. This is an interesting trap you’ve laid for yourself I think.

[servent101]

Lightson

The reason you can’t or won’t, is because that would cast you in the mold of being an “orthodox” individual, which you despise.

I do not despise individuals who are 'orthodox'. The mindset has its problems and it is the orthodox who do not grant community, fellowship, and who do not respect people's faith unless they base it on the same apologetics that they base their faith on.

So your statement

We are still waiting for you to shore up your position from the scriptures. Until you do, you are manifesting a mindless energy feed. What do you know of Christ that you did not learn from the scriptures? Where did you learn how to be saved, if not from the scriptures? If your position is valid, you should be able to defend it in the scriptures.

has been around for a very long time, and likewise attitude towards anyone who does not rear the same apologetics towards the Word.

This still stands as true

The Word makes no such claim as to faith being based on - "as instructed by the Word."- Preaching yes! but the closed canon of Christian Scripture's authenticity No, The closed canon of Christian Scriptures Inerrancy No. The closed cannon of Christian Scripture's Absoluteness - No. The closed cannon of Christian Scriptures accuracy - No. The closed cannon of Christian Scriptures authorship - No. Personally I have never met an orthodox minded Christian who substitutes belief in the Person of Christ with the "orthodox mindset" whom I would say has an understanding that satisfies his or her soul, nor a life that exemplifies the Lord, nor the pure Love of God that comes from pure unadulterated faith in the Person of Jesus Christ and fellowship with the Holy Spirit. The majority of them are improving their Spirituality, but there are enough that are more hindered by their orthodox mindset than helped, that I have for one taken to the task of exposing the orthodox mindset as a heresy, at least till the end of the year. Faith in the Person and Ministry of the Lord can be established and is rightfully established by that Ministry - through preaching - not on creating some infallibility doctrine of the account of that ministry.

That is if you have eyes to see and ears to hear.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Servent,
You claim to speak in Christ's name with every post you make, do you believe God raised Him from the dead? If not, why in the world would you want to be in Christ's Church or speak in the Name of a God who is dead?

[servent101]

Nineveh


You claim to speak in Christ's name with every post you make, do you believe God raised Him from the dead? If not, why in the world would you want to be in Christ's Church or speak in the Name of a God who is dead?

What part of

After many discussions on matters of faith with orthodox minded Christians I have determined that the far and vast majority are simply not able to discern anything – that their faith is nothing more than a mindless energy feed. So I politely decline to share my faith with - you – You have shown no sign of intelligence being active in any of your posts, though you do seem sincere.

don't you understand

--------------------AND--------------------

what part of

People don’t need you to be there making sure that your “closed cannon” is idolized as much as the person of our Lord, or the ministry of the Spirit. This brokerage process – is an abomination to our Lord’s Ministry.

don’t you understand?

You only have until the end of the year to ask me.

With Christ’s love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Servent,
I didn't know it would be so hard for you to answer. Either you believe Christ died and was raised or you don't. All you have shown so far is your unwillingness to admit to either believing in Christ (being ashamed) or denying Him, all the while speaking in His Name. It seems as though you are as ashamed about who you believe Christ to be, as you were sharing what your basis in truth is, which turned out to be hindu precepts.

[servent101]

I politely decline to share my faith with - you – You have shown no sign of intelligence being active in any of your posts, though you do seem sincere. After many discussions on matters of faith with orthodox minded Christians I have determined that the far and vast majority are simply not able to discern anything – that their faith is nothing more than a mindless energy feed.

Maybe now you understand?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[servent101]

Nineveh

Once you deal with your orthodox mindset - you might be able to discern Spiritual Truth, but to have your mind out of the apologetics of the orthodox and back on the the person of Christ is what needs to be addressed, as well as what pure religion is.

Your orthodox crap just does not make for any worthwhile discussion on Christianity, for me anyways... possibly there is someone else whom you can find to take their mind off of Jesus and onto your fossilized precepts and ideas. For me I will try to encourage you to see the Truth.

Sorry for appearing harsh - I am not God, I do the best I can, sometimes not as well as I could but in dealing with people who's faith is built on apologetics, not the Lord, I have resorted to trying to be frank about the issue.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Untouchable]

Remember Nineveh,
How the pharisee's would attempt to trap Jesus with their logic.
They would say to themselves, "if he affirms this we will have him, if he denies this we will have him."
Jesus would always confound them by being vague in regards to their questions, but pointed towards their own faults.
Jesus would have answered those questioning in sincerity, but he knew the intent of the pharisees hearts. For seeing they did not see, and hearing they did not hear.

[Nineveh]

Servent,
As ignorant as I may be, your evasiveness about Christ is revealing. Either you are ashamed, or you use His Name in vain.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Untouchable
Remember Nineveh,
How the pharisee's would attempt to trap Jesus with their logic.
They would say to themselves, "if he affirms this we will have him, if he denies this we will have him."
Jesus would always confound them by being vague in regards to their questions, but pointed towards their own faults.
Jesus would have answered those questioning in sincerity, but he knew the intent of the pharisees hearts. For seeing they did not see, and hearing they did not hear.

Well, when asked by what standard servent judged truth he gave many long posts with no answers. I caught his belief by chance on another thread. He steers people away from Scripture as a basis for Truth and has nothing better to offer than hindu precepts to replace it with. I would have been embarrased to say that, too. "Hey! Don't believe the Bible to know the Biblical God, use hinduism!" Now, after "purifying his thoughts" with hindu precepts, I merely wanted to see where that puts Jesus in his world view. Seems he isn't willing to share :shrugs: So, if he is preaching hindu, and speaking in the Name of Christ, seems like that would be called taking the Lord's Name in vein. In which case people should know he may use the Name of Christ, but he is preaching a whole other gospel. Not to mention his weird way of sharing the gospel, too, "you are ignorant, go purify your thoughts, oh stupid one, then I will teach you how to be wise".

[servent101]

Beware... the spaceship has landed

Well, when asked by what standard servent judged truth he gave many long posts with no answers. I caught his belief by chance on another thread. He steers people away from Scripture as a basis for Truth and has nothing better to offer than hindu precepts to replace it with. I would have been embarrased to say that, too. "Hey! Don't believe the Bible to know the Biblical God, use hinduism!" Now, after "purifying his thoughts" with hindu precepts, I merely wanted to see where that puts Jesus in his world view. Seems he isn't willing to share :shrugs: So, if he is preaching hindu, and speaking in the Name of Christ, seems like that would be called taking the Lord's Name in vein. In which case people should know he may use the Name of Christ, but he is preaching a whole other gospel. Not to mention his weird way of sharing the gospel, too, "you are ignorant, go purify your thoughts, oh stupid one, then I will teach you how to be wise".

We knew you were coming by the way.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[servent101]

Nineveh

As ignorant as I may be, your evasiveness about your own ignorance is revealing. Either you think you are God, infallible or you have an ulterior motive for your posting. Now which is it? You do not answer from the heart – you simply are not responding as a human being, as God created people with hearts, caring nor show any evidence of the Spirit of God residing in your heart, guiding your person. Are you possibly not a person? – some thing named Kaybella?

If you are a mechanical woman I can respond in an appropriate manner in which you will understand.

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

[Untouchable]

Well, when asked by what standard servent judged truth he gave many long posts with no answers.

I understood his answer although it was very subtle.
He knew you wouldn't understand his answer if he stated it frankly, and he assumed you would close off if he did.
I do think he should have been far more direct.

I'll try to answer for him. If he disagrees with anything I say, I'm sure he'll correct me.

Servant doesn't judge truth in the same way you judge truth.
By that I don't just mean that he has a different standard.
The difference goes deeper than that.
The similarity is merely linguistic.
While you attempt to judge truth, or know truth, Servant "knows" truth in a different way. He "experiences" truth. I put the words "knows" and "experiences" in parentheses because they do not ultimately define the nature of that reality, they help to alagorically express it. After all, words merely denote concepts.

I believe that Servant has, as I have, realized that the material world and the world of the intellect is ultimately agnostic.
You can not reason your way to God, because somewhere along the line you will have to make a decision to arbitrarily acknowledge a standard. Your decision to acknowledge the bible as Ultimate Truth was not totally misguided, but it was arbitrary. So was my decision to do the same before my recent "awakening" experience.
Bertrand Russells decision to state boldly that there is no God was arbitrary, for he couldn't have known whether God was real or not.
An agnostic who stubbornly holds to the claim that "it is impossible to know" arbitrarily hold to the concept that it is impossible for him to know. too be continued.. I'm sending this now cause I'm losing so many of my writings on this comp whether I write it in the dialogue box or in msn works..

He steers people away from Scripture as a basis for Truth and has nothing better to offer than hindu precepts to replace it with.

[Untouchable]

So here you have 3 cases of arbitrariness.
The religiously arbitrary.
The atheistically arbitrary.
The agnostically arbitrary.

All three of these denies God's ultimate reality, because they try to replace his actuality with worldly wisdom.
Do you want to know spiritual wisdom? Do you want to know TRUTH?
The truth is GOD IS. The only way to approach God is by experiencing him, for all other ways deny his reality.
How do you experience Christ? You must lose yourself, to find yourself. Die to yourself and live to Christ. Do this.
Throw away what you think you know, "for if a man says he knows something he is a liar."
Take the time. Sit down. Forget all you think you know. Forget all you think you love. He that is not willing to despise his father and mother is not fit for the kingdom of heaven.
When you lose yourself, you will find yourself and you will be filled with the spirit, for truly you will have found the kingdom of heaven.
"For the Kingdom of heaven is in you" Who would you expect to find in the kingdom of heaven? The Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit?

Servant does not desire to "know", in the way you ask.
To intellectually know is of this world. He drinks from the Source.
Truely he can study the scripture because it is written on his heart.
When he looks into the bible, he can see what is inspired and what is not, because he has access to the WORD. The bible may have written in it some knowledge that has come from the Source, but it is not the Source.
Peace

He who has ears to hear

[Nineveh]

Untouchable,
I understand what you are saying.

I would take issue with one thing however, "He knew you wouldn't understand his answer if he stated it frankly, and he assumed you would close off if he did." From his very first post to me, on a thread about hell Dave Miller started, he assumed I was incapable of understanding. In fact, it took me three post to get him to understand no one had drawn any conclusions about the topic yet. It's hard to converse with a body who doesn't state what they mean, only offer their brand of insults. : shrugs:

But, thanks for investing your time to explain sevent's beliefs :)

[Untouchable]

I don't know much about your history with Servant.

It sucks the way slight misunderstandings can make people feel anger and bitter toward one another.

[Untouchable]

I understand what you are saying.

I know you do. Everybody understands on a certain level.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Untouchable
It sucks the way slight misunderstandings can make people feel anger and bitter toward one another.

It always helps to state what you want to say, cuts down on the misunderstandings :)

[Untouchable]

yep

[servent101]

Nineveh

Sorry for appearing harsh - I am not God, I do the best I can, sometimes not as well as I could in dealing with people. I hope I can be more understandable, but I am only a person. The comment you make Either you are ashamed, or you use His Name in vain. I thought you would make, regardless of my beliefs, for they are not based on orthodox apologetics, so for me to share my faith and be accused anyways, why bother? It just hurts even more.

I have been arguing against the "orthodox mindset" for over a year now, I have come to articulate my thoughts and understand the apologetics and the influence it has on people, and it is something I have decided that I have spent enough time on. Possibly I judged you too quickly, if so please forgive me, hope though that you understand I have been dealing with this issue for most of my posts here on TOL. I have decided to move on out of that topic in the new year.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Servent,
"I judged you too quickly, if so please forgive me"

...and if he repents, forgive him :)
Luke 17:3

[LightSon]

Originally posted by servent101

I have been arguing against the "orthodox mindset" for over a year now, ... hope though that you understand I have been dealing with this issue for most of my posts here on TOL. I have decided to move on out of that topic in the new year.
.
Yes that is true serent101, but by your own words, it is you making the argument. It is you that is picking the fight by making the "orthodox mindset" the issue.

It seems that you are complaining about "dealing with this issue for most of my posts here on TOL". Perhaps you are not complaining and it just seems that way to me.

I've been reading your posts for much of that year, and have still not gotten satisfactory answers to my questions. If I am going to set aside my understanding of scripture, I need a little more to go on than simply, "servent101 says so". So far, that is all I've gotten.

I wish you well in the new year. I sense you get stressed about this issue, so perhaps it will be good for your mental health to "move on". I have issues that I stress about also. Don't know if you'll find consolation in that fact, but there it is.

Incidentally, you asked me to read and critique a document (thread) of yours quite a while back. I have not read it yet, but will do so. It is on my list of things to do. Reading it will also tend to put us at odds. Apparently this issue causes me stress and so I don't always rush to consider it. Sorry for taking so long.

[Untouchable]

Nineveh,
I'm curious to know your take on what I wrote.
Christ's peace,
Nathan

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Untouchable
I'm curious to know your take on what I wrote.

Do you mean this:

I understood his answer although it was very subtle.
He knew you wouldn't understand his answer if he stated it frankly, and he assumed you would close off if he did.
I do think he should have been far more direct.

I'll try to answer for him. If he disagrees with anything I say, I'm sure he'll correct me.

Servant doesn't judge truth in the same way you judge truth.
By that I don't just mean that he has a different standard.
The difference goes deeper than that.
The similarity is merely linguistic.
While you attempt to judge truth, or know truth, Servant "knows" truth in a different way. He "experiences" truth. I put the words "knows" and "experiences" in parentheses because they do not ultimately define the nature of that reality, they help to alagorically express it. After all, words merely denote concepts.

I believe that Servant has, as I have, realized that the material world and the world of the intellect is ultimately agnostic.
You can not reason your way to God, because somewhere along the line you will have to make a decision to arbitrarily acknowledge a standard. Your decision to acknowledge the bible as Ultimate Truth was not totally misguided, but it was arbitrary. So was my decision to do the same before my recent "awakening" experience.
Bertrand Russells decision to state boldly that there is no God was arbitrary, for he couldn't have known whether God was real or not.
An agnostic who stubbornly holds to the claim that "it is impossible to know" arbitrarily hold to the concept that it is impossible for him to know. too be continued.. I'm sending this now cause I'm losing so many of my writings on this comp whether I write it in the dialogue box or in msn works..

So here you have 3 cases of arbitrariness.
The religiously arbitrary.
The atheistically arbitrary.
The agnostically arbitrary.

All three of these denies God's ultimate reality, because they try to replace his actuality with worldly wisdom.
Do you want to know spiritual wisdom? Do you want to know TRUTH?
The truth is GOD IS. The only way to approach God is by experiencing him, for all other ways deny his reality.
How do you experience Christ? You must lose yourself, to find yourself. Die to yourself and live to Christ. Do this.
Throw away what you think you know, "for if a man says he knows something he is a liar."
Take the time. Sit down. Forget all you think you know. Forget all you think you love. He that is not willing to despise his father and mother is not fit for the kingdom of heaven.
When you lose yourself, you will find yourself and you will be filled with the spirit, for truly you will have found the kingdom of heaven.
"For the Kingdom of heaven is in you" Who would you expect to find in the kingdom of heaven? The Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit?

Servant does not desire to "know", in the way you ask.
To intellectually know is of this world. He drinks from the Source.
Truely he can study the scripture because it is written on his heart.
When he looks into the bible, he can see what is inspired and what is not, because he has access to the WORD. The bible may have written in it some knowledge that has come from the Source, but it is not the Source.
Peace

He who has ears to hear

If so, any particular parts?

[Untouchable]

Nevermind.
Happy thanksgiving,
Nathan

Actually I do have a question.
Do you think Servant101 is in the Lord's Church?
What about me?

[Nineveh]

Untouchable,
One is a member of the Body of Christ from Scripture, if one has repented and turned to Him for Salvation as perscribed in said Scripture.

One is a member of the Church of Latter Day Saints if one perscribes to the tenents of LDS. One is a member of Islam if one follows the tenets of Islam. One is Roman Catholic if one follows the doctrine of the RCC. One is a satanist if they worship themselves above all else.

[servent101]

LIghtson

Again - the Bible does not need anyone to make sure that the Book is held in as high esteem as the Person of our Lord, or the Holy Spirit. As was coined by Nineveh

knowledge that has come from the Source, but it is not the Source.

and this knowledge is rightfully interpreted with help from the Holy Spirit and accepted by Faith in Jesus Christ not by making some infalibility doctrine of the Word then basing faith in apologetics, then taking those apologiets as reason to be literalists. The orthodox mindset is an affront to the Lord's ministry, to the integrity of the human being who has recieved what is promised to every believer - the Holy Spirit.

Can you remember why you first believed - and now why do you believe? - Simply because of apologetics? And how does the orthodox church treat people who do not respect their apologetics, but have a firm faith in the Person of our Lord?

So at least now I have articulated a little bit better the reasoning of my dissatisfaction of the "orthodox mindset" I simply do not respect their apologetics - and find that they interfear with the Holy Spirit's ministry in a person's life. Many people do, and have not the skill to try to articulate their reasoning. It almost exhausts my ability to come this far with the issue. It has been an exhausting endevor, but worth it. I hope you look and see if apologetics are taking the place of faith in the Person of Jeusus Christ in your heart.


Untouchable, Nineveh

If someone is not drinking from the source - there is something wrong. It is called the orthodox mindset that is wrong.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Servent,
"It almost exhausts my ability to come this far with the issue."

Did you come to TOL with the intention of having no one debate your ideas? Poor thing. Must be a rude awakening for you. If you don't want to back up your claims with some debate, don't send out the invitation by just telling folks they are wrong. Either offer up how they are wrong, or quit whining about people being too stupid to understand you.

LightSon,
Good luck if you attempt engaging this poor exhausted soul in debate. It seems only he and those of like mind are the keepers of some great wisdom (read hindu precepts) that only a chosen few are pure enough in thought to possess. Sounds like the same ol' same ol' in a new wrapper to me, : shrugs: but then again servent wasn't inclined to actually discuss anything with an idiot like me. :D

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by PureX
This question was asked in a thread that I am not allowed to respond to, but I wished to respond anyway, so I will have to do so here:So, you don't believe in Jesus, as Lord and Savior? Why not?Christ is not a religion, nor a religius denomination. Christ is not a book of rules that people must follow. Christ is not a doctrine or a decree that has to be adhered to. Christ is not a bunch of supernatural feats or rituals that have to be performed. Christ is not a ticket to heaven. He IS: The Way;
The Truth;
The Life;
The Door of the sheep;
The Alpha and The Omega, The First and The Last;
The King of Kings and Lord of Lords;
Almighty God;
Everlasting Father;
God, with us.

He also said that if we beleive in Him, we will have eternal life. This implies (rightly) that those who do not, will not. His Blood is our only hope of entering Heaven. If our sins are not washed away by That Blood, then they are still on our record. Christ is God's love given human form. That human form was named Jesus, but it also has YOUR name on it, too. We are all expressions of God's love "made flesh". The question is; can we recognize this, and do we then choose to accept ourselves as such, and to live accordingly? The Christ part remains true no matter what. The Christian part is in our recognizing it, and in how we respond to it. Jesus said that we (believers) are, "...the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."What any of this has to do with church buildings, denominations, and organizations I don't know or care. We can be Christians in religious organizations or out, and we can refuse to be Christians in religious organizations or out. There is no intrinsic connection between Christ and religious organizations. The believer is the church. By that I mean that God has longed to dwell in temples not made with hands, and now, because Jesus has reconciled believers in Him unto God, He is now able to come into our bodies and take up His Abode inside of us, and to fellowship with us, as His Children. We are The Temple of The Lord. He dwells inside of believers. :thumb:

[PureX]

Originally posted by Aimiel So, you don't believe in Jesus, as Lord and Savior? Why not?See this link. (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10629&perpage=&pagenumber=1)
Originally posted by Aimiel He also said that if we beleive in Him, we will have eternal life. This implies (rightly) that those who do not, will not. His Blood is our only hope of entering Heaven. If our sins are not washed away by That Blood, then they are still on our record.You're interpreting this in the way of a religion, ie: we must believe the religious doctrine about Jesus. I don't interpret it this way, and I don't hold scriptures as God's words, anyway. So though I respect your right to believe as you wish about these things, I am not at all persuaded by such an interpretation.
Originally posted by Aimiel Jesus said that we (believers) are, "...the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid."The believer is the church. By that I mean that God has longed to dwell in temples not made with hands, and now, because Jesus has reconciled believers in Him unto God, He is now able to come into our bodies and take up His Abode inside of us, and to fellowship with us, as His Children. We are The Temple of The Lord. He dwells inside of believers. I believe that it's a sin to place religious doctrines between men and God. Since this is what religious Christianity has done with itself, I reject it as sinful.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by PureX

See this link. (http://www.theologyonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10629&perpage=&pagenumber=1)I guess TOL ran out of room on the current server. You're interpreting this in the way of a religion, ie: we must believe the religious doctrine about Jesus. I don't interpret it this way, and I don't hold scriptures as God's words, anyway.We have been given the truth, Jesus. What we do with Him determines our eternal destiny, as well as our life on this earth.I believe that it's a sin to place religious doctrines between men and God. Since this is what religious Christianity has done with itself, I reject it as sinful. There is no relationship with The Lord, since Eden, and Jesus healed that 'rift' for those who believe. We are able to come into relationship with The Lord, and religion has nothing to do with that relationship, unless it is a vehicle for truth to engage someone with The Lord.