Calvinism and Evangelism.

[KingdomBound]

I have friends that are very Calvinistic in their faith. But I'm having a hard time with Calvinism and predestination and Evangelism. I have read the scripture supporting Calvinism and predestination. I have watched a video series as well. I understand it and it makes sence to a point. But there are many places in scripture that lead us to believe to go out and spread the gospel. So I have to believe that there is free will to either choose or deny God. I am the head of my churches Mens Ministry and I have really worked hard in this ministry because I want to bring more men to Christ. But, if I believe Calvinism then, it doesn't really matter what I do. The elect have already been chosen. The only thing I can really hang onto as far as evangelism goes right now, is that I honosty feel that my ministry is something God has called me to do. So if anyone could help me out with this, I would appriciate it. I've been reading several forums, but I really havn't run across this specific issue. God bless.

[Jefferson]

KingdomBound:

You're on the right track. Have you ever noticed that the more people you witness to, the more people somehow get "elected?"
Strange how that works out, huh?

Consider this, when a politician gets "elected" for office, did he do anything to help himself get "elected?" Of course he did. There is only one place on earth where people who get elected are 100% passive and that place is behind calvinist pulpits.

By the way, welcome to TOL. :)

[Poly]

Welcome KingdomBound!

(well put Jefferson)

[jobeth]

The gospel (not free will) is the power of God unto salvation.

For all those who are predestinated, (Eph 1:5,11) hearing the gospel is the means by which they "come to a knowledge of the truth". They hear the gospel and acknowledge that it is true.

For those who are pre-condemned (i.e. "condemned already" John 3:18), the gospel does not sound true to them, even when it is fully explained to them. They deny that the gospel is true, even though it is true. (Jesus is Lord of ALL, whether they acknowledge that fact or not. And Jesus paid the full penalty for ALL sin, whether they are satisfied with their reimbursment or not.)

So you see how the gospel both saves and condemns. It is the gospel that prepares men for their pre-determined destinies. The gospel proves whether their hearts were created with an inclination towards the Lord or an inclination towards sin.

"Buy the truth and sell it not." When it comes to the gospel, some men "buy" it, and some men don't. Some are "ever learning and never able to come to a knowledge of the truth." (2 tim 3:7) Many shall seek to enter life, and shall not be able (luke 13:24)

We preach that the Kingdom of God is a present reality to all men. And since God controls everything, then He should be the one to pay the penalty for all the sin and evil in the world. And He did, according to the scriptures.

The reason people cling to the notion of free will is because they love their sin, which they can only do if they are free from God's control.

There is no such thing as unnecessary evil. Rather, everything that happens is both necessary and facilitates good.

The notion of free will is not logically compatible with an Omnicausal God. God controls everything, therefore everything that happens is ordained of God and serves His good purpose.

How can you disobey an Omnicausal God? You cannot. And this makes the wicked angry, because they despise authority.

Sadly, but out of His love for them, God will one day grant their desire to be free from His knowledge and control. And they will give Him glory and thanks for doing it.

[Jefferson]

Originally posted by jobeth
The reason people cling to the notion of free will is because they love their sin, which they can only do if they are free from God's control.Wrong. The reason people cling to the notion of an all-controling God is because they love their sin, which they can blame on God's all-controling hand.

[God_Is_Truth]

There is no such thing as unnecessary evil. Rather, everything that happens is both necessary and facilitates good.


when a forest fire breaks out and slowly burns to death a baby deer, painfully torturing it until it finally dies, how is that NOT unecessary evil? the result (death) is the same whether the deer is slowly tortured or killed instantly. for what good would God allow the torturing of the baby deer?

[geralduk]

Here is the subtle form of self rightousness that comes from a MISAPLIED calvin!

We do not BY NATURE have hearts either INCLINED to God or other wise.

(listen) HOW CAN THE DEAD have ANY INCLINATION ?
save that if any of staying dead!

We are DEAD in trespases and in sin.

More the CARNAL mind CANNOT receiev THE THINGS OF GOD for it is at EMNITY with them!
and are we not ALL dug from the SAME pit and made from the SAME clay?
How then is it thought that one man over another is 'better'
ALL have sinned and have come short of the glory of God.
and ALL our rightousness is as filthy rags in His sight.

Did LAZERUS have ANY inclination to RISE from the DEAD?
I THINK NOT!

The FIRST 'inclination' to RISE up from the dead was when he heard HIS NAME CALLED!
and was there then IN HIM any POWER to rise?
NO!
IT WAS "the WORD that went forth out of my mouth"
That was of such POWER that it "RAISED him up from the dead"
and look, did he WALK out of that tomb?
NO!
but was still in his grave cloths!
If the LORD had not called him by NAME then ALL the dead WOULD HAVE BEEN RAISED!

Therefore it is ALL of God.
and NONE of us in the matter of our SALAVATION.

AND so it is when the WORD goers forth IN THE preaching of the WORD and the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT that men are saved.
and thier RESPONSES to the gospel are the MANIFESTTION of GODS power NOT THEIR OWN.

and that which is SOWN is REAPED.

That does not meen we are ZOMBIES.
But it DOES meen that GOD quickENS our MINDS to UNDERSTAND THE MESSAGE that is preached.
and indoing so invites us to commit oursleves to where so ever HE LEADS.
wHICH ultimately IS TO HIM.

[Granite]

Originally posted by Jefferson
KingdomBound:

You're on the right track. Have you ever noticed that the more people you witness to, the more people somehow get "elected?"
Strange how that works out, huh?

Consider this, when a politician gets "elected" for office, did he do anything to help himself get "elected?" Of course he did. There is only one place on earth where people who get elected are 100% passive and that place is behind calvinist pulpits.

By the way, welcome to TOL. :)

That may be true for some of us, but certainly not ALL of us. Salvation is not a numbers game.

granite

[JackRUS]

KingdomBound.
I would recommend that you get this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962889873/ref=ase_baptistfire/102-9525839-4743329?v=glance&s=books

There is a reason why missionaries around the world can't stand Calvinism.

[jobeth]

Originally posted by Jefferson
Wrong. The reason people cling to the notion of an all-controling God is because they love their sin, which they can blame on God's all-controling hand.
Wrong. If God commanded you, and you do it, it is not called sin. It is called obedience.

[jobeth]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
when a forest fire breaks out and slowly burns to death a baby deer, painfully torturing it until it finally dies, how is that NOT unecessary evil? the result (death) is the same whether the deer is slowly tortured or killed instantly. for what good would God allow the torturing of the baby deer?
I would not presume to tell why for each particular instance. But there are plenty of potentially good reasons.

One may be in order to feed the scavenger animals. After all, if the deer was burned up entirely, there would be no meat left for these others. (Matt 24:28)

Another good reason may be in order to cause any witnesses to consider the uncertainty and brevity and lack of control they have over their own life. So that they may grope around for God and possibly find Him. (Acts 17:27)

Or it may be that this has happened in order to make room for God to perform some miracle. (John 9:2)

It proves the doctrine that we are not in control of our destiny, (Eph 1:5; Rom 9:16) that God has the right to do what He wants with what belongs to Him (Rom 9:18-22) that we belong not to ourselves, but to Him who bought us, (2 Pet 2:1); that whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord (Rom 14:8).

Use your imagination for good, rather than for evil.

[God_Is_Truth]

I would not presume to tell why for each particular instance. But there are plenty of potentially good reasons.

One may be in order to feed the scavenger animals. After all, if the deer was burned up entirely, there would be no meat left for these others. (Matt 24:28)

Another good reason may be in order to cause any witnesses to consider the uncertainty and brevity and lack of control they have over their own life. So that they may grope around for God and possibly find Him. (Acts 17:27)

Or it may be that this has happened in order to make room for God to perform some miracle. (John 9:2)

It proves the doctrine that we are not in control of our destiny, (Eph 1:5; Rom 9:16) that God has the right to do what He wants with what belongs to Him (Rom 9:18-22) that we belong not to ourselves, but to Him who bought us, (2 Pet 2:1); that whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord (Rom 14:8).

Use your imagination for good, rather than for evil.

but suppose in this situation there are no witnesses, all of the others who could eat the meat are killed, in the same fashion and God doesn't use it to make a miracle. if this is the situation, what possible good is it?

[Granite]

Originally posted by JackRUS
KingdomBound.
I would recommend that you get this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0962889873/ref=ase_baptistfire/102-9525839-4743329?v=glance&s=books

There is a reason why missionaries around the world can't stand Calvinism.

Lest we forget many of the great missionary movements throughout history were led by Calvinists--New Englanders, British, and Dutch alike.

granite

[geralduk]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
but suppose in this situation there are no witnesses, all of the others who could eat the meat are killed, in the same fashion and God doesn't use it to make a miracle. if this is the situation, what possible good is it?

Then you are asking soemone to make a comment on an unknown situation unseen and the end of which is hidden in a mystery! and ALL in the hand of God!?

This scripture SHOULD surfice though may not for some.

Even the sparrow that falls to the ground is not unknown to God.

[Jefferson]

Originally posted by jobeth
Wrong. If God commanded you, and you do it, it is not called sin. It is called obedience. Does God command someone to commit child molestation?

[Rolf Ernst]

Kingdombound: Your quandary is the result of doctrine that teaches that men are the ultimate determiners. Arminianism gives people the false impression that both the evangelist and the one who is witnessed to are ultimately involved in whether or not a soul spends eternity with God. The evangelist, supposedly, though the apostle Paul said that he came not with persuasive
words of man's wisdom, is responsible to present the gospel in such a way that the one witnessed to will be saved. If that person does not accept Christ, therefore, the evangelist can consider himself as perhaps being in some way responsible; and it is the fault of the prospect if he does not properly respond. But if the prospect falls to his knees, then the evangelist gains credit for his persuasivness, and the prospect is counted wiser than the man before who turned away. That is arminian evangelism.
Reformed people believe the Bible: "one man plants and another man waters, BUT THE LORD GIVES THE INCREASE." (caps
mine) and "Known unto God are all His works from the foundation of the world." Remember Lydia, the seller of purple, whose heart the Lord opened so that she believed the gospel.
Christ has commissioned us to proclaim the gospel. Why do you think there is no point in it if YOU are not the one who ultimately determines???? You would be surprised to find out how much more joyful the proclamation of the gospel is when you heart is fully cast upon the Lord, fully dependent on Him alone for the success of His word. That frame of heart relieves you of the burden of ultimately responsibility and gives you a heart of compassion toward those who are not moved rather than being resentful at their hardness of heart.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by geralduk
Then you are asking soemone to make a comment on an unknown situation unseen and the end of which is hidden in a mystery! and ALL in the hand of God!?

This scripture SHOULD surfice though may not for some.

Even the sparrow that falls to the ground is not unknown to God.

i guess what i am trying to get to is that supposing we found a situation in this world where there was unecessary evil, evil that had no better good be the reason for it. what would be the statement given based on this theodicy?

most people you would ask would say there are forms of unecessary evils in this world and i was just attempting to give an example.

[JIWIIAA]

Dear Everyone and KingdomBound,
Just a quick post here. Here book that I think "puts to rest" the debate regarding the relationship between Calvinism and evangelism: Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by J.I. Packer. In this book Packer looks at all sides of the issue and presents an amazing, life changing (at least in my case) perspective regarding evangelism. I reccomend it to everyone regardless of your sotierlogical beliefs!!! Hope this helps some!

Yours in Christ, JIWIIAA

P.S. JackRUS- Considering that the PCA has the highest member to missionary ratio out of any denomination, i truly question your statement regarding how missionaries "can't stand Calvinism". Not trying to attack anyone here, just stating fact. Have a great day all!

[KingdomBound]

Thanks Rolf Ernst and JIWIIAA.

I have done some basic research and I've gotten closer to a basic understanding of this. I firmly believe our God is a sovreign God. He is in control of everything. So He has created all that was, is and is to come. He has chosen the elect. But we are a part of his plan. He uses us to spread the Gospel to those who he has chosen. In doing this, we are doing his will, we are using our talents and gifts to glorify his purpose. But it isn't up to us to save anyone, we can't take credit, it's all for His glory. We just help in the process of salvation. One day I might just be a strong silent witness, another day I might be asked to talk about the gospel, another I might be forced to defend my faith. All this I do for the glory of God who has already determined what is to come. I'm getting more comfortable with all of this. As you can tell, I'm new at all this. JIWIIAA, thanks for the tip on the book. I have ordered "Evangelism & The Sovereignty of God", "Concise Theology", and "Reformed doctrine of Predestination" I'm sure these will all help me along. Thank you all for your replies and God bless you.

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by JIWIIAA
Dear Everyone and KingdomBound,
Just a quick post here. Here book that I think "puts to rest" the debate regarding the relationship between Calvinism and evangelism: Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God by J.I. Packer. In this book Packer looks at all sides of the issue and presents an amazing, life changing (at least in my case) perspective regarding evangelism. I reccomend it to everyone regardless of your sotierlogical beliefs!!! Hope this helps some!

Yours in Christ, JIWIIAA

P.S. JackRUS- Considering that the PCA has the highest member to missionary ratio out of any denomination, i truly question your statement regarding how missionaries "can't stand Calvinism". Not trying to attack anyone here, just stating fact. Have a great day all!

I'm wondering how they present the Gospel though? Do they use the conditional election approach like in Evangelism Explosion? (Yes, I took the course and I still find it amazing that the Presbyterians who wrote this ask for a decision for Christ and still teach the five points of Calvinism. ANd yes, I love D.James Kennedy). Or do they use the Unconditional election/Total Depravity approach like they teach?

Or do they use the "just show Christian love without asking for a decision for Christ since they are incapable of making such a decesion anyway" approach. (This is their desired approach these days BTW).

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?
and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?
and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written,
How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace,
and bring glad tidings of good things!
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord,
who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into
all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
But I say, Did not Israel know?

And how many people are these 'missionaries' leading to Christ i might ask? I personaly know many missionaries who comment concering Calvinism; "Then what are we doing here?"

I have some news for you..the 'Gospel' of unconditional election when presented to the unsaved hasn't saved a soul in two thousand years.

Here is the "gospel" of unconditional election/total depravity honestly given (and for the first time I might add since all Calvinist give the true Gospel of Conditional Election when they bother to give the Gospel at all).

A man (Fred) walks up to a Calvinist (Bob) and asks him how he can become a Christian and avoid Hell. The Calvinist is set aback because of his belief in total depravity, but regains his composure and honestly explains the Reformed Presbyterian view of grace.

Bob tells Fred that he has some good news and some bad news. The good news is that it is possible for him to be saved, but mathematically it doesn’t look good. He explains;

“You see Fred, God already has an exclusive list of saved people throughout the age of man who He has already capriciously chosen before the world began.”

Fred replies: “Huh?”

Bob answers: “Ya, It’s nothing personal or anything you see, but He has chosen a small percentage of people (Limited Atonement), my guess would be around 5-10% at the most (Mt. 7:13-14) of His created people who then become truly born again. And you must be born again to be saved you know(John 3:3, 7).”

Fred who is then quite disappointed, answers: “Well then, how can I know if I’m on this exclusive list?”

Bob explains: “Well, since you are what we call totally depraved in a spiritual sense, there isn’t really anything that I can tell you about the Gospel that you are capable of understanding or making a decision on. So my advice to you is to just go about your life and if God has you on His exclusive list you will be saved sometime before you die, no problem. But if you are not lucky enough to be on the list, then you will die and go to hell.”

Wow, that’s some good news (gospel) huh?!

Any deviation from this approach is a contradiction of the five points of Calvinism.

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by KingdomBound
Thanks Rolf Ernst and JIWIIAA.

I have done some basic research and I've gotten closer to a basic understanding of this. I firmly believe our God is a sovreign God. He is in control of everything. So He has created all that was, is and is to come. He has chosen the elect. But we are a part of his plan. In doing this, we are doing his will, we are using our talents and gifts to glorify his purpose. But it isn't up to us to save anyone, we can't take credit, it's all for His glory. We just help in the process of salvation. One day I might just be a strong silent witness, another day I might be asked to talk about the gospel, another I might be forced to defend my faith. All this I do for the glory of God who has already determined what is to come. I'm getting more comfortable with all of this. As you can tell, I'm new at all this. JIWIIAA, thanks for the tip on the book. I have ordered "Evangelism & The Sovereignty of God", "Concise Theology", and "Reformed doctrine of Predestination" I'm sure these will all help me along. Thank you all for your replies and God bless you.

I wonder if it has occured to you that God's sovereign will might be for people to be free moral agents responsible for their actions and decisions? I also wonder if you will get both sides of the issue addressed by reading only those books.

You commented:

"He uses us to spread the Gospel to those who he has chosen."

Please read John 3:16 and Mt. 28:19 and see if it says that.

[KingdomBound]

Thank you JackRUS,

17 And when they saw him they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age."

I believe God wants us to evangelise and spread the good news. But I also believe that it's not us doing the saving. So I'm lead to spread the Gospel, but I don't feel 'guilty' when I can't bring someone to Christ. Or that, I'm not the only one that needs to cause a conversion in someones life.

15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God. 22

36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

But this is also in the Gospel of John.

3 To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

14 I am the good shepherd; I know my own and my own know me, 15 as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one flock, one shepherd.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; 28 and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one." 31

17 This I command you, to love one another. 18 "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

5 and now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made. 6 "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me, and they have kept thy word.

[Jefferson]

Originally posted by KingdomBound
I have ordered "Evangelism & The Sovereignty of God", "Concise Theology", and "Reformed doctrine of Predestination"As long as you are ordering material on this subject, may I offer a suggestion? I have found the quickest way to come to conclusions on issues is not through books written from a one sided perspective. The reason is because authors have a very strong incentive to gloss over the weak points in their arguments if they even raise them at all. You can spend literally years before you learn that certain weak points even exist.

Therefore, based on much experience, I highly recommend debates. In debates, opponents go immediately for their opposition's weak points. You learn about the weak points in each position in a matter of minutes instead of a matter of years. Good deal, huh?

Some debates can be found in books but usually they are found on audio or video. Regarding this issue I would recommend you purchase the following debate: http://www.kgov.com/store/detail/video/predestination.html

[jobeth]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
but suppose in this situation there are no witnesses, all of the others who could eat the meat are killed, in the same fashion and God doesn't use it to make a miracle. if this is the situation, what possible good is it?

I do not deny that you can invent a situation where nothing good comes from it. (i.e. in your mind)

I only deny that that ever actually happens. (i.e. in reality)

Can you see the difference?

Genesis 6:5 (KJV)
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Titus 1:15 (KJV)
Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

Use your imagination to see "good" in every situation, rather than to see "evil".

Romans 8:28 (KJV)
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Those of us who love God KNOW that all things work together for good. Don't you?

[jobeth]

Originally posted by JackRUS
I wonder if it has occured to you that God's sovereign will might be for people to be free moral agents responsible for their actions and decisions?
I wonder if God's sovereign will might be for some people to be free moral agents responsible for their own actions and decisions, and for some people to be His bondservants who perform all His will?

Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 2:17 (KJV)
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 2:4 (KJV)
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[JIWIIAA]

Dear JackRus,
Thanks for your reply. I hope to respond sometime later today, but right now i g2g to school. Let me just say that I am concerned by your assumption that total depravity is part of the gospel? And if anyone ever wintessed the way you presented i would proceed to have a nice long prayer and bible filled talk. And one quick question here if you don't mind. (assuming u are armenian here) Why do you pray to God for the salvation of others. And btw if anyone has any prayer requests, I will be glad to take em'! Paz all.
Yours in Christ,
JIWIIAA

[Granite]

In my experience Calvinists don't evangelize or witness any differently than Arminians. In reformed churches there aren't altar calls, traditionally, but the basic approach to spreading the gospel is the same.

granite

[romanbear]

Hi Granite 1010;
Why no alter?, Do Calvinist feel that everyone through there doors is saved already?. Without a call to Salvation there is no evanglisim. Calling men to Salvation is evanglisim. The only way they'll hear is if it is preached to them.

No offense but, is the reason that there is no Alter calls in Calvinist Churches
because it's to hard to get up in front of people and admit your lost and need Christ.

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

In Christ;
Romanbear :)

[geralduk]

Perhaps also it mightnbe considered that some peoples idea of God is as if He was DEAD an dhad a DEAD hand .
When in truth He is aliving God who having made ears cannot He not hear and eyes cannot He not see and is His hand short that He cannot save?
It is WE who were once DEAD and it is possible STILL to veiw things with a DEAD perspective.
But we are to be RENEWED IN THE spirit OF OUR MINDS.

That we might UNDERSTAND and come to aknowldge of the truth.

We are NOW (if His) dead to sin and ALIVE unto God.

Insofar now that we have a LIVING and VITAL day today reltionship with God that is not a DEAD one or as if we are MACHINES programed to do certain things.
We are to be LIKE CHRIST.
and it is IN HIM these puzzles ands difilculties ARE RESOLVED and WORK TOGTHER they will NOT outside OF HIM EITHER IN OUR THINKING or in our life.

Those things that were written and "PREORDAINED from before the foundation of the world THAT WE (HE) SHOULD WALK IN THEM"
Would not have happened had He not PRAYED for them and SOUGHT THEM AND APREHENDED THEM .
for our sakes.
and that the will of God might be fullfilled.
had He not prayed in the garden but rather had fallen asleep as did the Apostles.
Then He would have failed and DIED in the garden RATHER THAN ON THE CROSS.
and NO ONE would have been saved.

If Danial having read of the day of delievrence for the people of God in the scriptures had just simply sat back and said well its th e soveriegn will of God that they should be delivered and He hasd promsied that they will be.
Then NO ONE wouldhave been delivered!
But he being FAITHFULL to the promise and BELIEVEING .......PRAYED and INTERCEDED untill that which was PROMISED BY HEAVEN was "DONE ON EARTH"

God had both prophecied and promised that the children of ISREAL had woulkd be in bondage for 400 years and then would be delivered.This was confirmed by Joseph.
Yet had they then sat back and waited upon God and did NOTHING then they would still be in BONDAGE to this day!

Its no use saying Gods will is soveriegn either.

Yes it is.
But who will BENEIFIT?
They who BELIEVE.

"ALL the promsies are YEA and AMEN in Chrost Jesus"

So it is all "according to your faith be it unto you"

The pattern OF PRAYER that the LORD gave to the APSOTLES when they asked Him to teach them to pray.
Began with the RECOGNITION of WHO it was they were praying to.
and the RELATIONSHIP we have not only with God but to CHRIST and the REST of the BODY ....... "OUR Father"
and then to the reognition of WHERE God is.
far above allprinciplaties and power and every name that is named............
Then the recognition and apreciation of THE NATUREOF HIS NAME.
Then the FIRST and PRIMERY means by which God has chosen to bring into manifestation the kingdom of God......PRAYER.
and how that which is WILLED in HEAVEN is to be DONE on earth.
For I came not to do My own will (on earth) but to do the will of God(in heaven)
and that which was willed by the FATHER in HEAVEN was DONE by the SON on EARTH.
"Thy kingdom come they will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

Then all the other things are added.

Though it IS the soveriegn WILL of God YET it is the SAME soveriegn will that has CHOSEN the weak and foolish things of thios world to confound the mighty and the great.
It is the Same SOVERIEGN WILL that has chosen that it will be by "fervant heartfelt prayer of a rightous man that will avail much"

So do not look to CALVIN to JUSTYFY yourselves.

For they who do so may well find Calvin one day condemning them.
But rather seek to do the will of God and be DOERS of the Word not hearers only deciveing your ownselves thereby.

For the will of God is our sanctification.
But so it was for them who were called out of EGYPT but soem failed to ALLOW God to WORK IN THEM what was MEET in HIS eyes.
and we are warned not to be like them who FAILED TO ENTER INTO THE PROMISE b"because of unbeleif"

yet when you read the account.
it was not because thye believed NOTHING.
bUT THAT THEY BELIEVED THE WRONG MESSAGE!

Who then do we isten to? and who do we take heed of?
and what sort of heart have we?
Those like unto the 10 who waLked by SIGHT ?
Or the 2 who thought seeign the SAME things saw them in the LIGHT of WHAT God had ALREADY done in thier lives.
WHO it was who was WITH them.
and WHAT was PROMISED for the future.
and in THAT light saw the GIANTS AS "GRASSHOPPERS"

Who is it we folow?

CALVIN or those who oppose him?
or CHRIST?

The GREATER includes the lesser.
and if we seek FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS rightousness then CALVIN will fall into his place as our understanding of HIm who calls us increases.
as too will those who oppose him.
But dont gte SIDETRACKED into NEEDLESS and ENDLESS debates to no profit either to the one who started them or those who continue in them.
But rather "GO ON UNTO PERFECTION" for THAT isthe will of God. Not only for us but for all who will and do believe.

[God_Is_Truth]

I do not deny that you can invent a situation where nothing good comes from it. (i.e. in your mind)

I only deny that that ever actually happens. (i.e. in reality)

Can you see the difference?


how would you recognize one in reality? i think just about anyone you ask would say there are unecessary evils in the world today. are you sure there are reasons for them all contributing to a greater good?

[jobeth]

Godistruth:
are you sure there are reasons for them all contributing to a greater good?
I know that all things work together for good because:
1. God controls everthing (Omnicausal)
2. God is Good (Omnibenevolent)
Therefore, everything that happens must contribute towards God's Good Purpose.

If that were not true, then
Either:
1. God is not really All Powerful.
Or:
2. God is not really Good.
And since both of those are NOT true, then I must conclude that no unnecessary evil ever actually occurs.


I mentioned your concern to my husband, and he says he doubts you can describe an actual unnecessarily evil event. Scavenger animals do, in fact, exist, and you can't just "imagine" them out of existence.

And there is no reason to "imagine" that God cares relatively more for one baby deer than He does for a whole flock of eagles. Besides, that baby deer may have been spared by God from a more horrible existence for all we know. We simply do not have the faculties to "know" everything that does happen, much less everything that coincidentally or consequencially might have happened. But God does know all that.

And God "claims" that He is LORD of both heaven and earth, and that all things work together for good. Who am I to question what God says is true?

[God_Is_Truth]

Jobeth:

that's an interesting position to hold. it's something we recently talked about in my philosophy class and i think everyone rejected it (we pretended we were all believers :D ) mostly because we were convinced that there were forms of unecessary evils in the world. if you see all these as being able to work toward a greater good, then i respect that.

one question though is why would God not controlling everything mean God is not all-powerful? all powerful means he has all the power and there is none greater than him. he can still be in control without controlling everything as well. i don't see why he must control everything to be all powerful. please explain?

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by jobeth
I wonder if God's sovereign will might be for some people to be free moral agents responsible for their own actions and decisions, and for some people to be His bondservants who perform all His will?

Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 John 2:17 (KJV)
And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

1 John 2:4 (KJV)
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I agree, but I was speaking in the context of Total Depravity as it is taught by Calvinists, and man's abilitity to accept the Gospel. But you are also quite correct.

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by JIWIIAA
Dear JackRus,
Thanks for your reply. I hope to respond sometime later today, but right now i g2g to school. Let me just say that I am concerned by your assumption that total depravity is part of the gospel? And if anyone ever wintessed the way you presented i would proceed to have a nice long prayer and bible filled talk. And one quick question here if you don't mind. (assuming u are armenian here) Why do you pray to God for the salvation of others. And btw if anyone has any prayer requests, I will be glad to take em'! Paz all.
Yours in Christ,
JIWIIAA

Where did you get the notion that I believe that Total Depravity is part of the Gospel? I was merely giving an honest way to present the Gospel through the eyes of a Calvinist that believes in both Total Depravity and Unconditional Election.

I pray that God will draw people to His Word (Eph. 2:8; Rom. 10:17) and that He will allow the light of Christ to shine through to those that are blinded by Satan. Eph. 4:18; 6:12.

And I am not an Arminian. I believe in the eternal security of the believer.

[jobeth]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
one question though is why would God not controlling everything mean God is not all-powerful? all powerful means he has all the power and there is none greater than him. he can still be in control without controlling everything as well. i don't see why he must control everything to be all powerful. please explain?
Great question!

Here's the thing. If God is All-powerful, then He is able not only to perform His will whenever He wants, but He is also able to prevent whatever He does not wish to happen.

Whether directly or indirectly, whether obviously or subtlely, whether through outward or inward means, God controls everything.

Q: Can you think of 2 or more biblical examples where God prevented someone from doing something He did not want to happen? (For extra points cite 3 examples using only the book of Genesis. Points taken off for using book of Job because that is too obvious.)

Bonus question: How can you know whether God has prevented everything He did not want to actually happen?

Automatic Win: How can you know whether God has not caused all things in accordance with His predetermined plan?

Ephes. 1:11 (KJV)
...being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

[God_Is_Truth]

Here's the thing. If God is All-powerful, then He is able not only to perform His will whenever He wants, but He is also able to prevent whatever He does not wish to happen.

Whether directly or indirectly, whether obviously or subtlely, whether through outward or inward means, God controls everything.


ok, so God, being all poweful, is able to perform his will whenever he wants and also able to prevent anything he doesn't want to happen. i agree. but the question is, why to be all powerful must be always prevent things he doesn't want? for example the salvation of all men. surely God wants all men to be saved. if God is controlling everything, why then is God's will not met? wouldn't he have prevented the fall in Genesis?


Q: Can you think of 2 or more biblical examples where God prevented someone from doing something He did not want to happen? (For extra points cite 3 examples using only the book of Genesis. Points taken off for using book of Job because that is too obvious.)


Gen 22:1-12, Gen 11:1-8, the prevention of wide spread famine in putting Joseph in power in Egypt to save up food for others (can't remember references).


Bonus question: How can you know whether God has prevented everything He did not want to actually happen?


scripture.


Automatic Win: How can you know whether God has not caused all things in accordance with His predetermined plan?

Ephes. 1:11 (KJV)
...being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will

the verse in Ephesians 1:11 does not show God has a total pre determined plan for everything that will ever happen. it means that God works all things out after what he desires and purposes.

[jobeth]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
ok, so God, being all poweful, is able to perform his will whenever he wants and also able to prevent anything he doesn't want to happen. i agree.
Good for you! God IS able to prevent anything He doesn't want to happen.
but the question is, why to be all powerful must be always prevent things he doesn't want?
Right. It is not His power, but His goodness that neccessitates that He prevent everything that would work against His purpose.

Only if God is Omnibenevolent and All-powerful must He prevent things that don't work towards accomplishing His good plan.

If God can but won't, then He is not All-Good.
If God wills, but can't, then He is not All-powerful.
But we affirm that God is BOTH Omnicausal and Omnibenevolent.
for example the salvation of all men. surely God wants all men to be saved.
Not quite. God wants to save all men who repent and believe. (1 Tim 4:10) It is God's will to save all those who acknowlege the truth about Him - that He is LORD. (2 Tim 2:25) It is God's will to save all those who turn from evil and do good. (2 Pet 3:0)

God does not want to unconditionally save every single person. Else every single person would be saved. Rather God wants to save everyone who meets His condition for salvation.

It is true that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. (1 Jn 2:2) And that God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself. (2 Cor 5:19) God has provided the means for the salvation of all people (Tit 2:11) But only those who believe and acknowledge that He is Lord will be saved. (Acts 16:31) And that is how God wants it.

God does not want to save everyone regardless of the condition of their heart. Rather, all men must repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved. Can you see the difference?

If you say that God wants everyone to be saved and they aren't, then it gives the impression that God's will is being thwarted. But if you say that with the proviso that a person has faith, God wants to say them all, then you show that God gets exactly what He wants. No one whatsoever who has Faith will fail to be saved and no one who lacks faith has any chance of being accidently saved. THAT is what God wants. And THAT is what God gets.


if God is controlling everything, why then is God's will not met? wouldn't he have prevented the fall in Genesis? Adam had not yet repented. God prevented men from eating of the tree of life in their carnal condition. Once again, God gets exactly what He wants.

God made man in His own image - the first Adam. God makes men in His own likeness in Christ - the second Adam. The first is a physical likeness. The second is a spiritual likeness.

Reread the passage in Gen and you will see that God's PLAN was to make man in His own image AND likeness. With the first Adam, God made man in His own image, according to plan. But it is only in Christ (the second Adam) that He makes men into His own likeness. And this plan is what seemed good in His eyes.

Gen 22:1-12, Gen 11:1-8, the prevention of wide spread famine in putting Joseph in power in Egypt to save up food for others (can't remember references).
Yes.
Here are some more:
Gen3:22-4 (to prevent carnal men from eating the Tree of Life)
Gen 4:15 (to prevent Cain from being killed)
Gen 6:5-8 (to prevent the spread of the mutants)
Gen 8:21-22 (to prevent another world-wide flood)
Gen 11:1-8 (you mentioned this one)
Gen 12:17 (to prevent the king from taking Sarai)
Gen 20:6 (to prevent Abimelech from taking Sarah)
There are many, many more instances of God preventing what He does not want to happen. And there are many, many instances of God allowing "bad" things to happen that serve His purpose. (the murder of Jesus is one) That is why I know God does not allow anything to happen that He does not want to happen.

the verse in Ephesians 1:11 does not show God has a total pre determined plan for everything that will ever happen. it means that God works all things out after what he desires and purposes. So God is constantly playing "catch up" with the events in the world? What if something slips past Him? What if it gets so bad, that even God can't patch it up?

No. You are not more powerful than God. No one is.
Not even Satan with all his followers can thwart God's will, or wreck His plans, or ruin His purpose.
Even if the whole world is mustered against the Lord with all their armies and all their most powerful weapons, they cannot defeat the Holy One nor prevent Him from doing all that He wants to accomplish.

Psalm 2:4 (KJV)
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.


Romans 9:19 (KJV)
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

[God_Is_Truth]

Right. It is not His power, but His goodness that neccessitates that He prevent everything that would work against His purpose.

Only if God is Omnibenevolent and All-powerful must He prevent things that don't work towards accomplishing His good plan.

If God can but won't, then He is not All-Good.
If God wills, but can't, then He is not All-powerful.
But we affirm that God is BOTH Omnicausal and Omnibenevolent.



there is way too much evil in this world to merely say it leads to a higher good. from the amount of women who get raped every year to the number of abortions that are performed, to the number of suicides, to the terrorist acts, i see way to many acts of evil to say they all lead to a 'higher good'.

i see God as having the ability to prevent every form of evil, but only by taking away free will. because free will leads to true love and is thus a greater good, it's the reason there is evil in this world that God didn't cause. we caused it because we have free will.

thus the evil doesn't lead to a higher good, it merely exists. however, it exists because of the higher good and true love that free will allows. therefore God doesn't cause all evil, which he would if he is omnicausal.


Not quite. God wants to save all men who repent and believe. (1 Tim 4:10) It is God's will to save all those who acknowlege the truth about Him - that He is LORD. (2 Tim 2:25) It is God's will to save all those who turn from evil and do good. (2 Pet 3:0)

God does not want to unconditionally save every single person. Else every single person would be saved. Rather God wants to save everyone who meets His condition for salvation.

It is true that Jesus is the Savior of the whole world. (1 Jn 2:2) And that God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself. (2 Cor 5:19) God has provided the means for the salvation of all people (Tit 2:11) But only those who believe and acknowledge that He is Lord will be saved. (Acts 16:31) And that is how God wants it.

God does not want to save everyone regardless of the condition of their heart. Rather, all men must repent and believe the gospel in order to be saved. Can you see the difference?

If you say that God wants everyone to be saved and they aren't, then it gives the impression that God's will is being thwarted. But if you say that with the proviso that a person has faith, God wants to say them all, then you show that God gets exactly what He wants. No one whatsoever who has Faith will fail to be saved and no one who lacks faith has any chance of being accidently saved. THAT is what God wants. And THAT is what God gets.


if God doesn't want all men to be saved, then why create them? for what greater good could it be? would it not be better to not create them than to create them and send them to hell for eternity?

how can God not want everyone to be saved in spite of 1 Tim 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9? the reason all are not saved is because not all are willing to repent of their sins. the reason God wants them to be saved and all are not is because people have free will. they have a choice to make: choose God or reject God. many reject him. thus God's moral will is thwarted. his Sovereign willl, however, is never thwarted. if God says he will do something, then nothing can stop it from coming to pass except himself.

as for faith, what about those who "lose the faith" as described in

1 Timothy 4:1

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons

it says many will abandon it. to abandon it, you must first have it. thus they have faith and leave it behind. how can you say then, that those with faith will never lose it?


Adam had not yet repented. God prevented men from eating of the tree of life in their carnal condition. Once again, God gets exactly what He wants.

God made man in His own image - the first Adam. God makes men in His own likeness in Christ - the second Adam. The first is a physical likeness. The second is a spiritual likeness.

Reread the passage in Gen and you will see that God's PLAN was to make man in His own image AND likeness. With the first Adam, God made man in His own image, according to plan. But it is only in Christ (the second Adam) that He makes men into His own likeness. And this plan is what seemed good in His eyes.


why have adam repent at all? why not simply prevent him from falling and keep him in his innocent perfect state? why not make adam Christ like without falling? why not simply create adam Christlike in the first place?


So God is constantly playing "catch up" with the events in the world? What if something slips past Him? What if it gets so bad, that even God can't patch it up?

No. You are not more powerful than God. No one is.
Not even Satan with all his followers can thwart God's will, or wreck His plans, or ruin His purpose.
Even if the whole world is mustered against the Lord with all their armies and all their most powerful weapons, they cannot defeat the Holy One nor prevent Him from doing all that He wants to accomplish.


God doesn't need to play catch up. he knows the present perfectly. nothing in it escapes him. he also knows much of the future as certain and everything else as possible. thus, he is never surprised at something happening. he may be surprised that it happened, but not at what it is. he can't ever say "wow, i never thought of that" because he knows all possibilities of the future.

i never claimed to be more powerful than God. however, i still don't see why God wouldn't be all powerful or how we would be more powerful by being able to thwart his moral will? obviously if we could thwart his sovereign will, he wouldn't be all powerful, but why not the moral will?

[jobeth]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
i see way to many acts of evil to say they all lead to a 'higher good'.

You "see" with your physical eyes. But there is a means of "seeing" that is not inherent, but must be acquired.
John 3:3 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
i see God as having the ability to prevent every form of evil, but only by taking away free will.
True. People cannot sin unless they are free from God's control. How can you sin against an Omnicausal God? You cannot.
because free will leads to true love and is thus a greater good, it's the reason there is evil in this world that God didn't cause. we caused it because we have free will.
Good logic. Wrong conclusion. It's a matter of agency, isn't it? You are correct about that.
But even if a person acts according to their own will, that does not exclude the possibility that they may be acting concurrently according to God's will too.

When the Pharisees sought to have Jesus executed, they believed they were acting "freely". But we know that what they did what just as God ordained and foretold they would do. They didn't really know what they were doing. They only thought they did.

1 Cor. 2:8 (KJV)
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If they had known what they were doing, they would have refrained. Who wants to be the one responsible for killing God's son? No one! They thought they were killing a sinner (or worse) who falsely claimed to be equal with God.

In the same way, people even to this day, do things that they believe are done outside of God's will and control. I disagree.
thus the evil doesn't lead to a higher good, it merely exists. however, it exists because of the higher good and true love that free will allows. therefore God doesn't cause all evil, which he would if he is omnicausal.
God created everything.
So if evil exists, then God created it.
But I deny that any unnecessary evil ever actually occurs.

God is indeed responsible for all the events that you mistakenly call evil.

Besides, you admit that God is responsible for evil even when you claim that freewill is the cause. According to you, God could have created a world without any freewill and thus could have prevented the so-called "evil" you complain about. So even in your view, neither People nor Satan are the ultimate cause of evil, but God is for allowing freewill which He could have omitted from the beginning.

if God doesn't want all men to be saved, then why create them? for what greater good could it be? would it not be better to not create them than to create them and send them to hell for eternity?
Great question! Jesus agrees with you.
Matthew 26:24 (KJV)
:it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
they have a choice to make: choose God or reject God. many reject him. thus God's moral will is thwarted.
In your imagination it is!
his Sovereign willl, however, is never thwarted. if God says he will do something, then nothing can stop it from coming to pass except himself.
Right! God is not double-minded. God has only one will and is never torn between two options. Whoever taught you that God has two wills has told you a fib.
why have adam repent at all? why not simply prevent him from falling and keep him in his innocent perfect state? Adam was never in any innocent perfect state. We are only perfected in Christ. There is no other way. Adam was not created in Christ, but from the dust of the ground. Adam was created physically by God, but he did not have the seed of God in Him (the Holy Spirit). That only comes when a person is born a second time. You should know all this!
why not make adam Christ like without falling? why not simply create adam Christlike in the first place?
What? And miss all of this!
(Much better question, btw.)

[God_Is_Truth]

You "see" with your physical eyes. But there is a means of "seeing" that is not inherent, but must be acquired.
John 3:3 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


every true christian is born again. therefore we should all be able to see the higher good in everything if it is there. Christians disagree on this, however, and claim that not everything has a higher good. why is this?


True. People cannot sin unless they are free from God's control. How can you sin against an Omnicausal God? You cannot.


so there is no sin in the world?


Good logic. Wrong conclusion. It's a matter of agency, isn't it? You are correct about that.
But even if a person acts according to their own will, that does not exclude the possibility that they may be acting concurrently according to God's will too.


are you just trying to say that sometimes what a person choose to do is in accordance with the will of God?


When the Pharisees sought to have Jesus executed, they believed they were acting "freely". But we know that what they did what just as God ordained and foretold they would do. They didn't really know what they were doing. They only thought they did.

1 Cor. 2:8 (KJV)
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

If they had known what they were doing, they would have refrained. Who wants to be the one responsible for killing God's son? No one! They thought they were killing a sinner (or worse) who falsely claimed to be equal with God.

In the same way, people even to this day, do things that they believe are done outside of God's will and control. I disagree.


they didn't know because they were blinded. they were blinded by pride and ignorance. had they surrendered pride, they would have seen Jesus for who he was and never crucified him.


God created everything.
So if evil exists, then God created it.
But I deny that any unnecessary evil ever actually occurs.

God is indeed responsible for all the events that you mistakenly call evil.


good logic, but doesn't follow because evil isn't a created thing. evil is simply the absense of good. for example all good would be a glass that is full. evil would be when the glass is only say half full. is the absence of the good. thus God created everything good (full glass) and man made it half full. however, in Christ, all men are made full again.


In your imagination it is!


then the bible agrees with my imagination.


Right! God is not double-minded. God has only one will and is never torn between two options. Whoever taught you that God has two wills has told you a fib.


having a moral will and a sovereign will is not the same as being double minded. it's not saying that God has two wills per se, rather two different aspects of his will. his moral will for how all of us should act in this world and his sovereign will of what he brings about and makes.


Adam was never in any innocent perfect state. We are only perfected in Christ. There is no other way. Adam was not created in Christ, but from the dust of the ground. Adam was created physically by God, but he did not have the seed of God in Him (the Holy Spirit). That only comes when a person is born a second time. You should know all this!


adam was neither innocent or perfect when God created him? so God created him guilty and imperfect?

[geralduk]

Even Christians soemtimes make God in thier own image.
Rather that see what GOD says about Himself.

God has a WAY .
MAN has his own ways.
Gods WAY is NOT mans way.
Though man CAN walk in His WAY .
God will NEVER walk mans.

God created MEN "not we ourselves"
and for what purpose was he created?
That he might know HIM and "His ways"
and WALK in them.

Yet man chose to do that "which was right in his own eyes"
Not thatGod willed or wished it.
But rather in the begining gave him the WORDS OF LIFE that he might Live and not die.
THAT was (and is) Gods eternal will.
For wrapped up in thatscripture that says "let us make man in our own image" is the truth also "man shall not LIVE by bread alone but by every WORD that proceedeth from the MOUTH of God."
and by THAT WORD they LIVED.
For in that He SPOKE to them and said "of all the tree in the garden you may FREELY eat"
here then God gave man the pefect LIBERTY TO DO GOOD.
and INCLUDED in "all" the trees was the tree of life.
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil though shalt not eat for in the day you do ye shall surely die"
here then God gave them NO liberty to DO evil.
and in that He had told them from HIS KNOWLEDGE of what was good and what was evil.
They LIVED by that knowledge.
For by it they did not eat OF THAT TREE which would have BROUGHT THEM death.

Here then is GODS way.
Is it not written he is the "same yesterday today and forever"?
I changeth not?
How then is it thought that HIS way has changed?

Then was Eve tempted to think of God wrongly then to REJECT His WORD.
and the devil changed the TRUTH"THOU SHALT SURE;LY DIE" into a LIE by the addition of just one word"NOT"
"thou shalt NOT surely die"
and she BELIEVEING THE LIE became BLIND by the REJECTION OF THE TRUTH.
For where as by the Word of God SPOKEN in the garden told them that it would be EVIL to eat of it.
and told of the CONSEQUENCES of doing so.
Yet we read that now in beliveing the lie she ACTED according to what her own senses told her"it was good to eat" and MADE HER OWN REASONING the FINAL arbiter OF THE TRUTH" that it would make her wise"
and she did eat.

Is it not written...?

"MY people perish for they lack VISION for they have REJECTED KNOWLDGE"

But is it thought that God will change HIS way to ACCOMADATE man?
NO!
But rather calls ALL men to REPENTANCE!
and to forsake THIER WAY that they have chosen.
and Go GODS way.
For ALL like sheep have gone astray each going his own way(doing that which is right in hsi own eyes)But ther iniquity of us all has He laid onHim"
Jesus said I AM THE WAY the truth and ther LIFE.

AND is it not writtn that HIS LIFE was the LIGHT OF MEN?
Therefore God has neithert changed nor is there even a SHADOW of it.
But the MORE has ESTABLISHED it forever.
and IF WE WOULD be His then we \are to walk in the light even as He is in the light.
and the the paths of rightousness.
For in truth when a person is BORNagain he enters into that ETERNAL and perfect WILL of God and into those things preordained form the before the foundations of the world.

and finds Him who was in the begiining as He who will be at the end also The SAME always and for ever.

[jobeth]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
every true christian is born again. therefore we should all be able to see the higher good in everything if it is there. Christians disagree on this, however, and claim that not everything has a higher good. why is this?
Good question. God has an eternal purpose. If everyone who claims to be a Christian were actually born from above, then we would all be able to percieve God's eternal purpose being worked out in every situation.
Because some people deny that God's eternal purpose is currently being worked out in every situation, we know that those people are not actually born from above.
Right?
so there is no sin in the world?
I cannot answer for someone else, but from my knowledge and experience, God is working all things together for Good, exactly in accordance with His own eternal purpose. But I realize that not everyone knows this truth.
are you just trying to say that sometimes what a person choose to do is in accordance with the will of God?
It is not that sometimes what a person chooses to do happens to be in accordance with the will of God. Rather it is the case that always what a person chooses to do is in accordance with the will and eternal purpose of God. All things are of God and work together to facilitate God's good purpose.
they didn't know because they were blinded. they were blinded by pride and ignorance. had they surrendered pride, they would have seen Jesus for who he was and never crucified him. I agree they were blinded. God blinded their eyes and deafened their ears, and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and turn and repent, and God would heal them.
But these things were done so that the scripture might come true, and so that our sins would be atoned for, according to the scriptures.
good logic, but doesn't follow because evil isn't a created thing. evil is simply the absense of good. for example all good would be a glass that is full. evil would be when the glass is only say half full. is the absence of the good. thus God created everything good (full glass) and man made it half full. however, in Christ, all men are made full again.
No. There is nothing that exists that wasn't created by God. He is the Sole Creator of All Things, both visible and invisible. If anything appeared without being a result of God's creative work, then God would not be the Sole Creator of All things.

having a moral will and a sovereign will is not the same as being double minded. it's not saying that God has two wills per se, rather two different aspects of his will. his moral will for how all of us should act in this world and his sovereign will of what he brings about and makes.
It was never God's intention to save everyone without exception. Rather God wills to save everyone who repents and acknowledges the truth of the gospel. And God wills to condemn everyone who won't.
No one can thwart God's will or wreck His plans or ruin His purpose. No one can and no one will.

adam was neither innocent or perfect when God created him? so God created him guilty and imperfect? Adam was not created "imperfect". Rather Adam was created "not yet perfected". (We are only perfected "in Christ", remember?)
And Adam was not created "guilty". But rather Adam was created "not yet clean" (sanctified). (We are only "clean" and washed by the blood of the Lamb of God, remember?)

The "plan" for our perfection and being made "like" God was in place from before the creation, but was implemented only after the creation of Adam, who was made in the image of God.
The first Adam was created physically in the "image" of God in outward appearance. But it is only in the second Adam that we are made spiritually "like" God in Spirit.
Can you see the difference?

We who are born of the flesh are partakers of the imago dei. And we who are born of the Spirit are partakers of the 'likeness' of Christ.

[God_Is_Truth]

Good question. God has an eternal purpose. If everyone who claims to be a Christian were actually born from above, then we would all be able to percieve God's eternal purpose being worked out in every situation.
Because some people deny that God's eternal purpose is currently being worked out in every situation, we know that those people are not actually born from above.
Right?


but you and i are both christians, and we aren't seeing totally eye to eye in these situations, so i'm not sure this would be the case, although it would be great if it was.


I cannot answer for someone else, but from my knowledge and experience, God is working all things together for Good, exactly in accordance with His own eternal purpose. But I realize that not everyone knows this truth.


but does God cause the evil events himself or just use what evil is here to work for a higher good?


It is not that sometimes what a person chooses to do happens to be in accordance with the will of God. Rather it is the case that always what a person chooses to do is in accordance with the will and eternal purpose of God. All things are of God and work together to facilitate God's good purpose.


that would mean everytime i sin, it's God's will that i do so. that makes no sense. God hates sin, so how can it be his will that i would sin? God would be wanting something to occur that is against his will. his will would be against his will. that boggles my mind to say the least.


I agree they were blinded. God blinded their eyes and deafened their ears, and hardened their hearts, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and turn and repent, and God would heal them.
But these things were done so that the scripture might come true, and so that our sins would be atoned for, according to the scriptures.


agreed. the cross was definately necessary to atone for the sins. God made sure that his crucifixion happened to bring peace between man and God.


No. There is nothing that exists that wasn't created by God. He is the Sole Creator of All Things, both visible and invisible. If anything appeared without being a result of God's creative work, then God would not be the Sole Creator of All things.


but evil isn't really a "thing" per se. it's the imperfection of what God created perfect. it was good, and became un-good. that is what evil is. it's not like one glass of good and one glass of evil. its like a full glass that is good and a half full one that is evil.


It was never God's intention to save everyone without exception. Rather God wills to save everyone who repents and acknowledges the truth of the gospel. And God wills to condemn everyone who won't.
No one can thwart God's will or wreck His plans or ruin His purpose. No one can and no one will.


i have a hard time accepting that while believing that God is love, died for the whole world and that whosoever believes in Jesus will not die but have everlasting life. whosoever, means whosoever. it doesn't mean whosoever does a, b and c. it means whoever believes, anyone who does this, will be saved. God died for all of them and thus wants them to believe. if he only wants some of them to believe, he'd only die for them.


Adam was not created "imperfect". Rather Adam was created "not yet perfected". (We are only perfected "in Christ", remember?)
And Adam was not created "guilty". But rather Adam was created "not yet clean" (sanctified). (We are only "clean" and washed by the blood of the Lamb of God, remember?)


or perhaps he was created perfect and fell? perhaps he was "Christ like" in the beginning and chose to reject it?


The "plan" for our perfection and being made "like" God was in place from before the creation, but was implemented only after the creation of Adam, who was made in the image of God.
The first Adam was created physically in the "image" of God in outward appearance. But it is only in the second Adam that we are made spiritually "like" God in Spirit.


so was it necessary that adam fall in your opinion?


Can you see the difference?


i believe so. what does "phsyically in the "image" of God" mean to you? also, why not make adam "like" God in Spirit to begin with?

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

[geralduk]

If it WAS Gods will that they SHOULD fall.
why then did HE tell them NOT to eat of it>?

We truly must think clearer on this.

God said that they should NOT eat of it for if they did they would die.

To say that it was somehow Gods will that they SHOULD eat of it makes Him not what He is.
and is of him that sought to GET THEM TO EAT OF IT than the ONE who told them not too!


It is written "that man shall not live by bread alone but by every Word that proccedeth from the mouth of God"

God gave them LIBERTY to EAT of all the trees in the garden that were GOOD to eat.
But it was not by them that they LIVED but by the WORDS OF LIFE concerning the tree that they Gave them NO liberty to eat.

Therefore what WAS and IS Gods will is that man should LIVE and NOT die.

the trouble is that man does that and thinks that which is right in his own eyes and mind and not according to the WORD of GOD.
and so
"My people perish for they lack vision(BLIND) for they have rejected(right)knowledge."

It was while they kept the WORD of HIS PATIENCE that they lived; and CONTINUED DOING SO even as the continued in the WORD.
It was when they believed the word of the serpent and therefore the WRONG MESSAGE they they failed and died.

The devil changed the TRUTH "thou shalt SURELY die"
Into a LIE by the addition of but ONE word"thou shalt NOT surely die"
and by believeing the LIE became BLIND.
and thier "understanding darkened" as to the nature of the one speaking to them.
The nature of God and the consequences of thier actions.
and then men lived in darkness where they once walked in the light,untill they that sat in it "saw a great light"

and they who had been looking for it and hadeyes to see it saw that God has NOT CHANGED nor His will.

[Rolf Ernst]

Shall God not create for Himself creatures which, in being volitional, are in His image? Is God restricted in His work of creation because, supposedly, He had no right to create a willing creature who had the potential of failure?
An inability to will diminishes the potential of fellowship between God and His creatures and altogether takes away the meaning of the fellowship between God and those who are steadfast for Him as was Job.
Inability to will either against or in accord with God's declared
will robs Him of His glory.
The church, having been lifted from the miry clay by His grace and established upon the Rock to serve Him, is to the praise of the glory of His grace. Without the law of God, which He clearly has a right to give, without the fall, how would the glory of God's grace been manifested in His redeeming fallen creatures?
Without the fall, how could God have gotten glory to Himself by showing His wrath on the disobedient?
God's highest purpose is His own glory. The fall demonstates that God gets glory to Himself in both the redeemed, and the unbelievers. Was God wrong to harden Pharoah's heart so by it He would make His name known in the earth?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst
Shall God not create for Himself creatures which, in being volitional, are in His image? Is God restricted in His work of creation because, supposedly, He had no right to create a willing creature who had the potential of failure?
An inability to will diminishes the potential of fellowship between God and His creatures and altogether takes away the meaning of the fellowship between God and those who are steadfast for Him as was Job.
Inability to will either against or in accord with God's declared
will robs Him of His glory.
The church, having been lifted from the miry clay by His grace and established upon the Rock to serve Him, is to the praise of the glory of His grace. Without the law of God, which He clearly has a right to give, without the fall, how would the glory of God's grace been manifested in His redeeming fallen creatures?
Without the fall, how could God have gotten glory to Himself by showing His wrath on the disobedient?
God's highest purpose is His own glory. The fall demonstates that God gets glory to Himself in both the redeemed, and the unbelievers. Was God wrong to harden Pharoah's heart so by it He would make His name known in the earth?

if i am a parent and i punish my child for something i made them do, i am most unjust. God is not unjust so we know he does not do things in this manner.

as for pharoah, God "hardened" his heart through the miracles and plagues. pharoah had already hardened his own heart before the plagues and there is no reason to think he couldn't have repented at any point of the plagues.

[Rolf Ernst]

Something God MADE him do? Where, all of a sudden, did our continual consciousness of man's "free will" go to?
Adam was a reasoning creature with moral accountability and volition. Remember Adam's "free will"? Your "God made Him do it"
is similar to the woman blaming the serpent and Adam blaming
"the woman whom you gave me..." But that does not factor in the creation which God brought into being. Everytime Adam and Eve tried to pass the blame, God responded by saying, "What have you done?" Read it "What have YOU done?"
Morally accountable creatures are personally accountable for their OWN actions. I know that is not P.C. these days, but that is
reality. Modern psychiatry and ten thousand excuse finding
psychologists cannot alter that reality by all the scapegoating they do because ultimately, it is God's judgement which will prevail.
As for God hardening Pharoah's heart, be sure you read Exodus 4:21 carefully. Moses was to do the wonders (not the judgements) "but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." The sequence in Scripture is God first hardening pharoah's heart then Pharoah hardening his own heart. After that, the judgements begin.
God hardened Pharoah's heart by withholding from Pharoah His common grace by which Pharoah WOULD have been able to do that which was right. God's common grace in restraining Pharoah's natural bent to evil ("the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked") was the only way Pharoah could have done what was right, but God's common grace in restraining the evil in man's heart is not merited by men. His grace is His to dispense as He pleases and no man has a necessary right to unmerited favor from God. Once God removed His gracious, restraining hand from pharoah's evil nature, Pharoah immediately fell under the weight of his evil heart into that sin from which God's hand no longer upheld him. Read Psalm 81:11,12 and Romans 1:24,26,28. God hardened Pharoah's heart by leaving Pharoah to his own devices. In another place, you can read where God promises judgement on people with these words: "They shall be filled with their own devices."

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by KingdomBound

I have friends that are very Calvinistic in their faith. But I'm having a hard time with Calvinism and predestination and Evangelism. I have read the scripture supporting Calvinism and predestination. I have watched a video series as well. I understand it and it makes sence to a point. But there are many places in scripture that lead us to believe to go out and spread the gospel. So I have to believe that there is free will to either choose or deny God. I am the head of my churches Mens Ministry and I have really worked hard in this ministry because I want to bring more men to Christ. But, if I believe Calvinism then, it doesn't really matter what I do. The elect have already been chosen. The only thing I can really hang onto as far as evangelism goes right now, is that I honosty feel that my ministry is something God has called me to do. So if anyone could help me out with this, I would appriciate it. I've been reading several forums, but I really havn't run across this specific issue. God bless.

This is a very interesting post indeed. The fact that the believers are God's elect is a true statement. However, we don't know WHO God's elect is. John 10:16 says And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd. There are those whom God has given Christ, but just have not heard His Word yet. That is the reason why we must witness.

Also, I do not believe in us (believers) "bringing other people to Christ". Praying some "sinner's prayer", "going down from to the alter", or "accepting the 4 spiritual laws" (campus crusade) isn't at all Biblical at how we come to Christ.

Jesus said over and over again in the Gospel of John, "Believe". That's it. Becoming a Christian isn't some Circus act or sales pitch from a believer to a non-believer.

Take a look at Paul. What happened to him on the road to Damascus? GOD. Period. Not some tent revival or sunday school class.

Oh, and there was some post about us having "free will" to choose God. Did Paul have free will then? What about Moses? the 12 disciples? Mary Magdelene?

Free will is a man-made escape route. God seeks His people, not vice versa. Saying we can choose God before He chooses us negates Grace in its most genuine God-given form.

[helmet84]

KingdomBound,

Are you still out there? Did you ever find a satisfactory answer to your original question?

-- helmet84

[geralduk]

ALL men are PREDESTINED to HELL if they do NOT repent.

For men are DEAD "in trespases and in sin"
and if God did NOTHING then NO man would LIVE.
Therefore it is ALWAYS of GODS calling and not mans how and why a man gets saved.


A SEED is PREDESTINED to bring forth "FRUIT AFTER ITS OWN KIND"
Even as a man who sows SIN will REAP death.
So too as a man sows RIGHTOUSNESS will he reap LIFE.

But man ALONE has NO hope ,NO LIFE and HIS rightousness " is as filthy rags in Gods sight"
The ONLY true rightousness is GODS.
Therefore "unless a SEED fall into the ground and die it abideth alone"
But if it dies it bringeth forth MUCH FRUIT.
Therefore "He who knew NO sin became sin that we through Him might become the RIGHTOUSNESS OF GOD"
"He who was RICH became POOR that we through HIS POVERTY might become rich"
He In "whom was LIFE" DIED so that we who were DEAD in trespasses and in sin "might have LIFE and life more abundantly"
The trouble wioth most peoples lack of apreciation of those truths that CALVIN taught is that they seek to do so by thier own interlectual prowess rather than by the HOLY GHOST.
And in doing so misrepresent those truths with HALF TRUTHS and even distortions.

be that as it may.
Jesus said the KINGDOM OF GOD is likened unto a SOWER!
and by those parables by which we may understand the mysteries of the kingdom.
Therefore on THAT foundation WE SHOULD SEEK TO UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS.
Not by MENS wisdom but by the "foolishness of God"

and IF and its a BIG if we are WILLING to be LED by HIM who shall LEAD us into ALL truth WE WOULD KNOW THESE TRUTHS ALSO and in knowing them be made free and in keeeping them be KEPT free.#

[5Solas=Truth]

this is absolutely ridiculous... show me an example ofr an altar call in the Bible...

"One may read thousands of pages of the history of the Christian Church without finding a single reference to the "old-fashioned altar call" before the last century. Most Christians are surprised to learn that history before the time of Charles G. Finney (1792-1875) knows nothing of this type of "invitation." The practice of urging men and women to make a physical movement at the conclusion of a meeting was introduced by Mr. Finney in the second decade of the nineteenth century. Dr. Albert B. Dod, a professor of theology at Princeton Seminary at the time of Mr. Finney's ministry, pointed out the newness of the practice and showed that this method was without historical precedent. In his review of Finney's Lectures on Revival, Professor Dod stated that one will search the volumes of church history in vain for a single example of this practice before the 1820's. Instead, history tells us that whenever the gospel was preached men were invited to Christ—not to decide at the end of a sermon whether or not to perform some physical action.

The Apostle Paul, the great evangelist, never heard of an altar call, yet today some consider the altar call to be a necessary mark of an evangelical church. In fact, churches which do not practice it are often accused of having no concern for the lost. Neither Paul nor Peter ever climaxed his preaching with forcing upon his hearers the decision to walk or not to walk. It is not only with church history, then, but with Scriptural history as well that the altar call is in conflict.

One may ask, "How did preachers of the gospel for the previous eighteen hundred years invite men to Christ without the use of the altar call?" They did so in much the same way as did the apostles and the other witnesses of the early Church. Their messages were filled with invitations for all men everywhere to come to Christ.

Surely it will be admitted that the first sermon of the Christian Church was not climaxed by an altar call. Peter on the Day of Pentecost concluded his sermon with these words "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God has made that same Jesus, whom you have crucified, both Lord and Christ." Peter stopped. Then the divinely inspired record tells us "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said to Peter and to the rest of the apostles, 'Men and brethren, what shall we do?' " (Acts 236-37). This response was the result of the work of the Spirit of God, not of clever appeals or psychological pressure. That day the apostles witnessed the conversion of three thousand people.

C. H. Spurgeon invited men to come to Christ, not to an altar. Listen to him invite men to Jesus Christ "Before you leave this place breathe an earnest prayer to God, saying, 'God be merciful to me a sinner. Lord, I need to be saved. Save me. I call upon Thy name....Lord, I am guilty, I deserve Thy wrath. Lord, I cannot save myself. Lord, I would have a new heart and a right spirit, but what can I do? Lord, I can do nothing, come and work in me to do of Thy good pleasure.

Thou alone hast power, I know
To save a wretch like me;
To whom, or whither should I go
If I should run from Thee?

But I now do from my very soul call upon Thy name. Trembling, yet believing, I cast myself wholly upon Thee, O Lord. I trust the blood and righteousness of Thy dear Son.... Lord, save me tonight, for Jesus' sake.' " "Go home alone trusting in Jesus. 'I should like to go into the enquiry-room.' I dare say you would, but we are not willing to pander to popular superstition. We fear that in those rooms men are warmed into a fictitious confidence. Very few of the supposed converts of enquiry-rooms turn out well. Go to your God at once, even where you now are. Cast yourself on Christ, at once, ere you stir an inch!"

Invitations such as Spurgeon gave directing men to Christ and not to aisles are needed today. George Whitefield's sermons were long invitations to men to come to Christ, not to an altar. The same may be said of the preaching of Jonathan Edwards, of the Reformers and of others in the past who were blessed with a harvest of many souls using Scriptural means of inviting men to Christ."
Jay Adams, Decisional Regeneration,
http://www.graceonlinelibrary.org/etc/printer-friendly.asp?ID=509


Originally posted by romanbear

Hi Granite 1010;
Why no alter?, Do Calvinist feel that everyone through there doors is saved already?. Without a call to Salvation there is no evanglisim. Calling men to Salvation is evanglisim. The only way they'll hear is if it is preached to them.

No offense but, is the reason that there is no Alter calls in Calvinist Churches
because it's to hard to get up in front of people and admit your lost and need Christ.

Mar 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

In Christ;
Romanbear :)

[5Solas=Truth]

Kingdombound, I see that you are ordering Boetnner's book Predestination.... not sure if you have it yet or not, but I wanted to let you know it is available for free online;

its at Christian Classics Ethereal Library:
http://www.ccel.org/b/boettner/predest/default.htm

more from Boetnner here:
http://www.caledonianfire.org/caledonianfire/Boettner/mainb.htm

3 books are available here, including Predestination:
http://www.tracts.ukgo.com/loraine_boettner.htm

blessings

[5Solas=Truth]

God is truth, you said as for pharoah, God "hardened" his heart through the miracles and plagues. pharoah had already hardened his own heart before the plagues and there is no reason to think he couldn't have repented at any point of the plagues.

how does that square with the fact that God said He would harden Pharoah's heart before Moses ever began, through God, to send the plagues etc.

Exo 4:21 ESV And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

?????

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by 5Solas=Truth

God is truth, you said

how does that square with the fact that God said He would harden Pharoah's heart before Moses ever began, through God, to send the plagues etc.

Exo 4:21 ESV And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go."

?????

God predicted that pharoah was not going to listen to the cry of moses and thus planned to harden the heart of pharaoh as a judgement upon egypt which would bring more plagues and ultimately glorify God.

better stated here:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hharden.html

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

God predicted that pharoah was not going to listen to the cry of moses and thus planned to harden the heart of pharaoh as a judgement upon egypt which would bring more plagues and ultimately glorify God.

better stated here:

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/hharden.html


EEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Wrong. The passage in Exodus should suffice. Don't need any OV response to anything and everything in the Bible.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Swordsman

EEEEEEEHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Wrong. The passage in Exodus should suffice. Don't need any OV response to anything and everything in the Bible.

huh? :confused:

[geralduk]

Alter calls:

When Moses came down from the mountain and asked who was on the lords side to step over the line.

Elijah after the rout of the enemy called upon all to decide whom they will serve.

The BAPTISM of JOHN.

and no doubt there are others.



But perhaps some food for thought concerning Charles Finney.
Many condemn him but then they who do and did so are they doing as MUCH as He if at all and win as many souls as he?
If then by those who condemn him would by THIER methods DO AS MUCH then let thier fruits testyfy of it.
If not then perchance we should be the more carefull in railing accusations against an elder of the church of God?

[smaller]

Finney made more DOUBLE SONS OF HELL. So what else is new?

You call this "wining souls?"

I call it fear mongering for profit.

CHOOSE to SAVE YOURSELF.

CHOOSE to SELF ATONE.

CHOOSE to CONDEMN OTHERS for what is also IN YOU.

These are the "choices" that "freewill" has wrought...

[geralduk]

Well.... we have this confidence that "GOD knows who are His"

So rest easy if you can smaller.
For there will be NONE who could NOT be saved in heaven and there will be ALL who could be.
and though you may judge yet God is the better one.
and in the end a mans fruit will speak of itself and GODS fruit WILL REMAIN WHILE ALL ELSE SHALL PERISH.

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

God predicted that pharoah was not going to listen to the cry of moses and thus planned to harden the heart of pharaoh as a judgement upon egypt which would bring more plagues and ultimately glorify God.

So you're saying God has his binoculars on and saw what Pharaoh was going to do and reacted to it? God wasn't fully sovereign over Pharaoh?

God knew Pharaoh would not listen to Moses, because God didn't allow him to. Pharaoh didn't have a chance at all. He was doomed from the beginning.

Exodus 9:16 is the words God told Moses to tell Pharaoh But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.

Sounds to me like God had a purpose for Pharaoh before Pharaoh even knew it. God is sovereign over the evil as well.

[geralduk]

If you consider that JOSEPH had been a VERY real and perfect witness not only of God but also of Him who was to come.
and that to the household of pharoah.
Therefore when it says there came one who knew not JOSEPH.
Then they had no fear of the God OF Joseph.
and had REJECTED HIS TESTOMONY.
Therefore this pharoah had NO excuse fro even of old from ABRAHAMS day THEY KNEW the GOD of the ISREALITES.
Therefore GOD "gave them over" and chose that which they had chosen for themselves and so "hardened his heart"

[Rolf Ernst]

Geralduk--I agree with much of what you post, Geralduk, but I don't believe the challenge given by those of whom you speak in Post #57 on this thread (Moses, Elijah, and John the Baptist) is at all the same thing that happens in modern altar calls. Today's altar calls are given (mostly, but not always) with the intention of calling those who are not yet saved, or who are near being saved, to the front where they be dealt with and their salvation secured or confirmed. I would not dispute someone going forward to boldly testify of their faith in Christ, especially those who are unknown by others in the congregation, but I believe the motivation in altar calls is generally unbiblical, leads some to a false sense of security in their position before God, misrepresents altogether the necessary power of the Holy Spirit's mighty work of regeneration, and more than anything else, serves to flatter the preacher.

[billwald]

(Didn't read through all the verbage but . . .) The purpose of evangelism is to identify the people who are the elect and welcome them into the Covenant community.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Geralduk--I agree with much of what you post, Geralduk, but I don't believe the challenge given by those of whom you speak in Post #57 on this thread (Moses, Elijah, and John the Baptist) is at all the same thing that happens in modern altar calls. Today's altar calls are given (mostly, but not always) with the intention of calling those who are not yet saved, or who are near being saved, to the front where they be dealt with and their salvation secured or confirmed. I would not dispute someone going forward to boldly testify of their faith in Christ, especially those who are unknown by others in the congregation, but I believe the motivation in altar calls is generally unbiblical, leads some to a false sense of security in their position before God, misrepresents altogether the necessary power of the Holy Spirit's mighty work of regeneration, and more than anything else, serves to flatter the preacher.

I dont throw out the PRINCIPLE of electricity just because there are cowboy electricians about who cause mayhem injury and death by thier MISUSE of them.

Nor do I ground every plane thinking that the principles of areodynamics have gone awry.
But I look to the MECHANICS and the USE rather than to the power of flight.
Therefore I say and I WOULD agree that there are not a few who use alter calls wrongly.
But I would 'argue' that if either those who come forward and those who give the call do so wrongly then it is MAN who as at fault not the principle.

Elijah FIRST preached the Word in the POWER and ANNOINTING OF GOD which DESTROYS the yoke THEN he called all to decide which side they were on and MOVE accordingly.
Moses preached the WORD in the ANNOINTING and THEN called upon ALL to decide and make thier MOVE to MANIFEst THIER DECISION.
jOHN the baptist also.
What is lacking which was NOT in C.G FinneyS meatings was the POWER and ANNOINGING OF GOD!
Men take the FORM but deny the POWER thining that they can do the same 'work'
and well may have a great SHOW but there is little REALITY of HIM who was promised.
Therefore those who come forward on a wave of emotion but not much of the WILL will soon fall away.But whos fault is that?
For many preachers preach more of prosperity than sin and rightousness.
and give the people what they WANT not what they NEED.
and they may well get what they need but also get a "leaness in thier soul"


Therefore its the PREACHING that should sort out the wheat and the chaff.
and make the DISTINCTION so that all who DO come forward do so with the realization of what they are doing.
and those who do not and should that they do also .

[geralduk]

Originally posted by billwald

(Didn't read through all the verbage but . . .) The purpose of evangelism is to identify the people who are the elect and welcome them into the Covenant community.

The IMPLICATION of that is that in some way or other that IN them who you say are the elect is SOMETHING that God can call to.and worthy then of being saved.

But are we not DEAD in tresspasses and in sin?
are we not ALL like sheep and have gone astray?
Are we not ALL as DUST?
Have not ALL sinned and come short of the glory of God?
Therefore there is NOT ONE who is saved that was NOT as those who are as yet are NOT SAVED!
But were as they are DEAD.

Therefore the preaching of the cross is not to save the elect but to please God and to JUSTYFY HIM.
and that NO m,an can BOAST in ANYTHING seeing that the mesage was PREACHED TO ALL.
and if by His grace you or I are saved then how GREAT A RESPONSABILITY is UPON and RESTS UPON US to REACH those who are as yet UNSAVED! AND PREACH to them as FREELY as it was to us.
and if we do not how then can we say we are elected?
Seeing that we do NOT fullfill the law of CHRIST? and go " and do likewise"

[Rolf Ernst]

Geralduk--I believe that I understand your point Geralduk, and I believe you justfy it as well and as sincerely as possible, but state the text where Moses, Elijah and John call upon people to MOVE, as you say.
Geralduk, I believe modern evangelism has placed in people's minds a necessary link between their MOVE and salvation which deceives many. Salvation is not something which men obtain by any action of their own. It is a gift given by the Holy Spirit to those whom He regenerates by the "working of His mighty power which He worked in christ when He raised Him from the dead." By saying that, I am not at all denying the faith which is active by love. Without fail, all those who are so generated will be active in bearing testimony of their faith in Christ; but those who place their hope in making a "profession" by aisle walking will find their hope to be in vain. The testimony of those who are truly regenerate is irrepressible and does not rest upon the fact that "Well, I am as member of such and such a church."
My stance is not against exhortations to faith. When the gospel has been clearly declared, it should be concluded with heartfelt encouragements to everyone to cast all their hope upon Him; but directing people to the sanctums of their own homes to spend the remainder of the day examining themselves with Bible in hand as to whether or not they are truly resting their all upon Him is worth far more than a trip down an aisle.

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

if i am a parent and i punish my child for something i made them do, i am most unjust. God is not unjust so we know he does not do things in this manner.

as for pharoah, God "hardened" his heart through the miracles and plagues. pharoah had already hardened his own heart before the plagues and there is no reason to think he couldn't have repented at any point of the plagues.

Ephesians 1:5 "he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"


God is not the father of unregenerate mankind. No one has any right to claim a paternal relationship with God by virtue of His being their creator. In fact only those whom God adopts have such a claim. Therfore, your analogy is based on a false presumption.

God Bless,
John

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by romanbear

Hi Granite 1010;
Why no alter?, Do Calvinist feel that everyone through there doors is saved already?. Without a call to Salvation there is no evanglisim. Calling men to Salvation is evanglisim. The only way they'll hear is if it is preached to them.

No offense but, is the reason that there is no Alter calls in Calvinist Churches
because it's to hard to get up in front of people and admit your lost and need Christ.

Dear Bear,

Altar calls a relatively recent innovation, which lack any NT foundation. We reformed believers, are also concerned about giving the new believer the wrong impression; That is, that he contributed to his own salvation by something he did (i.e., a work).

God Bless,
John Reformed

[smaller]

John Reformed says

"No one has any right to claim a paternal relationship with God by virtue of His being their creator."

God's Word says

Deut. 14:1
You are the children of the LORD your God

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine

Job 33:4
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Geralduk--I believe that I understand your point Geralduk, and I believe you justfy it as well and as sincerely as possible, but state the text where Moses, Elijah and John call upon people to MOVE, as you say.
Geralduk, I believe modern evangelism has placed in people's minds a necessary link between their MOVE and salvation which deceives many. Salvation is not something which men obtain by any action of their own. It is a gift given by the Holy Spirit to those whom He regenerates by the "working of His mighty power which He worked in christ when He raised Him from the dead." By saying that, I am not at all denying the faith which is active by love. Without fail, all those who are so generated will be active in bearing testimony of their faith in Christ; but those who place their hope in making a "profession" by aisle walking will find their hope to be in vain. The testimony of those who are truly regenerate is irrepressible and does not rest upon the fact that "Well, I am as member of such and such a church."
My stance is not against exhortations to faith. When the gospel has been clearly declared, it should be concluded with heartfelt encouragements to everyone to cast all their hope upon Him; but directing people to the sanctums of their own homes to spend the remainder of the day examining themselves with Bible in hand as to whether or not they are truly resting their all upon Him is worth far more than a trip down an aisle.

Please do not misunderstand me.

First; ANY RITUAL and or 'recipe' that men make of a TRUE principle is doomed to failure in all those who either promote such a thing and in those who folow them.
Thus it is PRIMARILY as "the HOLY SPIRIT LEADS" the minister.
It is NOT ALWAYS or needfull to happen.
But your 'proviso' that 'modern day evangeilism' IS the proviso why it is wrong in conduct.
Now we must be carefull in that we know there are men of God who are annointed by the HOLY SPIRIT to BE evangelsist.
and ther are others who" make merchandise of Gods people" and who are not of Me"
but hirelings and wolves in sheeps clothing.
If then you speak of thses 'modern evnagelists' Then your conclusions are CORRECT! in that they have NO LIFE in them nor can give it nor do they LEAD men to first the place of repentance then to salvation.
and then to the open declaration of CHRIST then to discipleship .
and service.
As it is with those things of the baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT.
You have the false and the true.
So it must be.
But to the scriptures...
Exodus 32:26
1kings 18
The preaching of John THE BAPTIST calling all men to repent and be baptised.and make themselves ready.
In that baptism is NOT a means unto salvation but an act of faith unto rightousness.

Therefore as I said before if coming to the front is PROJECTED AAS BEING SAVED even as puttign ones hand up is also as if that ALONE 'saves' you.
But to the sincere heart it DOES strengthen thier faith by an open show of thier acknowldgement TO be saved. and in many cases CUTS OUT THE DEVIL in his working to discourage them from doing so.
It is when make the 'mechanics' the END and be all of it is when it becomes unfruitfull.
and when make it a RITUAL and MUST at all times and in all places REFGARDLESS of what the HOLY SPIRIT would have be done.
is when it also becomes unfruitfull or ineffective.


MOSES called upon those who were on the |Lords side.
and in similar situation ELIJAH did the same.
John called men to repentance and to be baptised.
that too is a COMING FORWArd AND OUT INTO THE OPEN.
What has just come to mind is also the woman with the issue of blood.
Where she had TRUE faith and ACTED UPON IT.
and was rewarded in that which she sought.
Yet the Lord nevertheless made her come out into the open and confess opnely what HE HAD DONE.
FOR HER SAKE.
and by SO DOING she was not only made well but was MADE WHOLE.
Therefore without being dogmatic about it there IS a place to do it and it is a blesssing to those who obey IF IT IS DONE RIGHT.

IN regards then to your last remark.
I would AGREE!
bUT TRULY IS THAT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT?
For if men seek but the increased m,embership of thier 'church' and to make "a name for themselves"
Then I AM in wholehearted agreement with you.
But I would 'argue' that was NOT C.G Finneys motvation at all! nor all those emn of God who as they are LED do the same things as and when they ARE led to so do.
NOT for the increase of 'their' church or denomination.
But for the INCREASE OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
For we rob God and those who we say we minister to if we but get them 'saved' just to 'feed' our church!
and not give them that FULL and WIDE vision of the WHOLE BODY of believers IN CHRIST and not (very little letters) in the denomination.
For we are batised NOT into a denomination but INTO CHRISTS BODY.
and no ONE denomination is THE church of CHRIST but is as it were but ONE tree in the FOREST if is His at all.
But THE body which is HIS church is made up of ALL those who are TRUELY BORNagain and SEALED by the ONE SPIRIT even GODS into THAT body CHRIST being the HEAD.
Which is indivisible and must come to that place where we "discern the body of Christ"
and act accordingly.
If then we but teach the 'babes' in Christ but the limited veiw of the kingdom of God but from our 'school' of theology.
Then we STUNT THIER GROWTH and development in thier character and in the kingdom of God.

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by smaller

John Reformed says

"No one has any right to claim a paternal relationship with God by virtue of His being their creator."

God's Word says

Deut. 14:1
You are the children of the LORD your God

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine

Job 33:4
The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Deut. 14:4: Please tell me who you say the subject of the sentence (YOU) is. I have examined the the context and it seems as if the answer is conclusive; Not manlind universaly, but,Israel specificaly.

After recieving your reply, I would be happy to help you understand the remaing verses which you listed. God willing.

[lost-n-found]

Ori