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Bob Enyart

January 9th, 2002, 07:02 PM

Judge Rightly is not some guys name.

Jesus commanded men to judge rightly and He told them to “judge not.”

Did the Lord contradict Himself? Or does the Bible say more about judging than the general public realizes?

Jesus repeatedly taught men to judge rightly, insisting they “judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24) and He praised a man who “rightly judged” (Luke 7:43). Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to “judge the smallest matters” (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, “He who is spiritual judges all things” for “we have the mind of Christ” (1Cor. 2:15-16).

Where did we get the notion that men should never judge? Should child-molesters escape condemnation? Should rapists be free from criticism? Should society refrain from judging those arrested for murder? And why would anyone judge others for judging?

Borrowing characters from C. S. Lewis, imagine this dialogue between a junior demon named Wormwood and his wicked uncle Screwtape. This fiendish exchange could have occurred a century ago:

Wormwood: Believers have so many weapons at their disposal. It is difficult to neutralize them. It takes a huge effort just to slow the work of a single Christian.
Screwtape: Your one-on-one approach is inefficient. This is the age of Madison Avenue and mass marketing. If you can undermine their whole group at once, then you’ve accomplished something.
Wormwood: Unfortunately, I’m not highly productive. In the time it takes me to frustrate one believer, I could tempt a dozen heathens.
Screwtape: Don’t lose heart, Wormwood. We are imple-menting a plan to impair the whole Church with a single ploy.
Wormwood: I don’t see how that will be possible. I see Christians dedicated to warning others about hell. It’s all I can do just to get one of them distracted for a short time.
Screwtape: We are going to use their Leader’s own words.
Wormwood: No! Please don’t. Don’t even joke about using His words. I can’t take it.
Screwtape: If you’re ever going to grow up to be an effec-tive demon, you’re going to have to learn to use the Enemy’s words against Him.
Wormwood: It just seems so dangerous. Which words are you going to use?
Screwtape: “Judge not!”
Wormwood: I don’t understand why He would tell them not to judge. That’s confusing. He commanded His followers to rebuke, admonish, and judge hundreds of times in His Book. And that’s what they’re out there
doing. And I might add, it’s causing me grief.
Screwtape: When their Leader said those words, He was speaking to hypocrites. “Judge not… you hypocrite,” as He said later in the same paragraph.
Wormwood: Yeah, but how are we going to use “Judge not” to neutralize the whole Church?
Screwtape: We’re going to get them to ignore the fact that He was talking to hypocrites. He said that hypocrites should not judge, at least not until they stop doing the wrong deed themselves. But we’re going to make them think none of them should judge, ever.
Wormwood: That’s bril-liant… if you can pull it off, that is. I mean, if we can get them to stop judging, then they won’t rebuke the wicked. And they won’t be able to admonish those who are sexually immoral.
Screwtape: It is even more brilliant than you realize. If we can seduce Christians into fol-lowing the instructions for hypo-crites, we will turn them into hypocrites. It’s like government workers who follow foolish rules so precisely they are transformed from human beings into bureau-crats; drones who mindlessly dis-pense red tape regardless of the misfortune they cause. The slave who willingly obeys his master, begins to conform to the master. If believers willingly submit to an instruction for hypocrites, they will conform to hypocrisy. Eventually, with a little evil luck, we might stop them from con-fronting unbelievers altogether because, as you know Worm-wood, to confront requires judg-ing. And if they don’t judge un-believers, they are hypocrites, professing the Gospel but deny-ing its power.
Wormwood: Ha, ha. I’m excited. When do we start?
Screwtape: Everything is underway already. Just do your part.
Wormwood: And that is…?
Screwtape: Make sure your targets read as little of the Book as possible. Don’t get too wor-ried if they stick to their favorite twenty cliché verses. But make sure they remain ignorant of most of the Word.
Wormwood: Master, you are brilliant.
Screwtape: You can call me Master if you want, but don’t let the boss hear you.

A lie paralyzed the Church. God warns against “hypocrisy” commanding men to “abhor what is evil” (Rom. 12:9). Yet to abhor evil, someone must first judge evil. Thus, unable to judge, large numbers of Christians become hypocrites by obeying the Hypocrites Golden Rule. Since the hypocrite doesn’t want to be judged, he judges not, as Jesus said, “Judge not… you hypocrite” (Mat. 7:1, 5 KJV; Ezek. 16:52). For “judge not” (Mat. 7:1-5) is simply a hypocrites application of do unto others as you would have them do unto you (Mat. 7:12). “For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged” (Mat. 7:2). Judge others as you would have them do unto you inverted is Judge not if you do not want to be judged.

Christ kept repeated this theme in His ministry. “Hypocrites,” Jesus said, “why, even of yourselves, do you not judge what is right?” (Luke 12:56-57). Still, His own followers have mostly ignored the Lord’s harsh rebuke: “Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to [judge, i.e., to] remove the speck out of your brother’s eye” (Mat. 7:5). “Judge Not” is the Hypocritical Oath.
“Judge Not” is hypocrite haven. He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones. Such Christians should relocate. They should move into “the temple of the great God… being built with heavy stones” (Ezra 5:8).

Christians live in the “building” for which Christ is “the chief corner stone” (Eph. 2:20). And if that Stone falls on someone it “will grind him to powder” (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18; cf. Ex. 32:20). Better to be judged by a Christian than crushed by Christ.

Hollywood, Hillary, and Homosexuals repeat the phrase like a mantra, judge not, judge not, judge not, until the masses are mesmerized. Jesus did not intend this.

Scripture deals with topics that range from simple to advanced truth. Milk is for babes in Christ; meat is for men of God. The question of whether or not Christians should judge is milk. It is preschool. The newest believer taught any of a hundred passages would immediately understand that he must judge. Judging others is fundamental. It is not a difficult concept and should in no way be controversial.
“Everyone who partakes only in milk is unskilled in the Word of righteousness, for he is a babe” (Heb. 5:13). The Church, today lactose intolerant, has trouble even with milk.

Extreme ignorance of the Bible has crippled the Church. And that paralysis slows every denomination by hurting local fellowships. What is the percentage of Christians who have succumbed to the “Judge not” deception? Is there even one percent of believers who have not fallen for that diversion? A quarter century of observation suggests to this author that probably 99 out of 100 believers misquote Jesus by repeating the “Judge not” mantra. Believers need to turn from this sin and ask God for wisdom to keep from being so easily deceived again.

Curse God and die! Is that good advice? Word for word, it is in the Bible. Job’s wife counsels her husband to “Curse God and die” (Job 2:7). Many verses, if ripped out of context, can ruin lives. Judas “went and hanged himself” (Mat. 27:5) and as Jesus said “Go and do likewise” (Luke 10:37). The believer who lacks a hunger for God’s word is susceptible to the most absurd dangers.
An October 1996 letter in the Rocky Mountain News expressed a typical judge-not sentiment. It advocated incarceration and not the execution of murderers, who are made “in the image of God” as it would be “wrong to put the image of God to death.” However, the writer never addressed the incongruity of putting the image of God in jail.

“Judge not” is the prayer of those who want to hide light under a basket. The cliché describes salt, which has lost its flavor, which no longer seasons or preserves. This seductive lie takes its victims out of ministry. As spectators on the sidelines, they only watch the spiritual battle. But they are in a comfort zone. Apathy is the craving. “Judge not” is the shirking of responsibility.

To the Jews God said, “If you will walk in My ways, and if you will keep My command, then you shall also judge My house” (Zech. 3:7). Are members of the Body of Christ today less capable than Israel whom God commanded to “judge righteously” (Deut. 1:16-17; Lev. 19:15)? Moses appointed the head of one out of every ten households as a judge (Ex. 18:25; Deut. 1:15). Should Christians toss out the entire book of Judges? Should America eliminate all judges, or should just the Christian judges resign? Should believers ignore Paul’s admonition:
“Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life? I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren?” (1Cor. 6:2-5).
Notice that Christians “will judge the world!” (1 Cor. 6:2). For Paul said, “if the world will be judged by you…” God the Judge delegates judgment to His people. Even spirit beings will submit to believers: “Do you not know that we shall judge angels?” Then and now, believers should “judge... according to My judgments” (Ezek. 44:24) as God said. The Almighty commits judgment into the hands of His obedient servants (Rev. 20:4).

If God were the only judge, the sins of all men would be “clearly evident, preceding them to judgment” (1Tim. 5:24a). But because human beings will judge their fellow men on Judgment Day, therefore the sins “of some men follow later” (1Tim. 5:24b). The human judges will already have been aware of the sins of notorious men. But they will not learn of the sins of obscure men until they are revealed at Judgment Day. Also, these human judges will then become aware of the sins of leaders, celebrities, and even family members who had carefully concealed their wickedness.

Enoch, the seventh from Adam, may have known of this. For he said “the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints to execute judgment on all” (Jude 14-15). The Lord with His saints will judge the world!
Jesus too said, “The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it...” (Mat. 12:41). And as Solomon wrote, “jealously is a husband's fury; therefore, he will not spare [the adulterer who violated his wife] in the day of vengeance. He will accept no recompense nor will he be appeased” (Prov. 6:34-35). God gives the responsibility for vengeance, condemnation, and judgment to His servants for “every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord” (Isa. 54:17).

Today, many believers are effectively saying, “Lord, thanks but no thanks. I’ll pass on that judgment duty.” But Paul responds, Start judging now, because you will need the practice (1Cor. 6:2-5). Remember, “He who is spiritual judges all things. For... we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:15-16). And God will reward those who judge, and do the hard work: “Those who rebuke the wicked will have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them.” (Prov. 24:25).

Would slain Columbine high school student Danny Rohrbough be forgiving or judgmental toward his unrepentant murderers? A People Magazine photo in Nov. 1999 shows his family and friends answering that question. They quote Rev. 6:10 in which martyred Christians in heaven ask God to “avenge our blood.” Judge-not Christians condemn the martyr’s call for vengeance, but never the murderer.
Hopefully the Church will see Judge Not headed for retirement replaced with Judge Rightly. For as Jesus said, “Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24).

REPORT BY:
Bob Enyart
PO Box 583
Arvada CO 80001
Listen to Bob Enyart Live anytime on Internet radio at KGOV.com. To get The Plot, Bob’s popular unpublished manuscript about the Bible, go to RightStuffMarket.com or call 1-888-8Enyart to learn how to judge rightly!

Knight

January 21st, 2006, 12:23 AM

I judge that this thread deserves a fresh start. I cleaned out all the old posts so we could start a fresh discussion. :up:

fool

January 21st, 2006, 12:37 AM

"Judge not lest Ye be Judged? Wrong, Judge, and prepare to be Judged"-Ayn Rand

fool

January 21st, 2006, 12:38 AM

Are you ready to be judged Knight?

Lighthouse

January 21st, 2006, 01:11 AM

Knight has been judged, and will continue to be judged. And when he is judged rightly, he conforms to what is right. And that is why he strives to always judge rightly, himself. The same goes for me.

Bob Enyart

January 21st, 2006, 01:18 AM

God_Is_Truth

January 21st, 2006, 02:32 AM

A great report; I had not read it before. Amen Bob.

Mr. 5020

January 15th, 2008, 12:09 AM

A bump for those who haven't read this yet.

ShadowScythe13

January 15th, 2008, 12:27 AM

please post the whole verse, not just little bits of it.

John 7:23-24
"Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

nowhere is he "insisting they “judge with righteous judgment"", he is telling them that if they are going to judge someone, don't let their looks be what you judge em on.

Luke 7:40-43
Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.

"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said"

Great, so Jesus is telling Simon that he judged correctly, not that he should judge people. you can do something that is wrong correctly and incorrectly, can't you? And isn't this more of a semantics deal rather than an actual command?

1 Cor 6 2
i counter this verse with another, just a little further on.
1 Cor 6 7-8
"The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers."

1 Cor 2 15-16
"The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ."

I have trouble with this verse. This basicially makes it so that the Crusades, the Holocaust, and every single genocide carried out in the name of God is okay. i will need to think about this one some more.

Aimey

January 15th, 2008, 12:27 AM

COOL!

I better expound on that since I in no way intend to support the above arguments by SS13.

Bob, that is a great article!

another popular statement I have recently heard is ,

"I am sorry about.....but we are only human."

Stripe

January 15th, 2008, 01:31 AM

Jesus is telling Simon that he judged correctly, not that he should judge people.
:squint:

It is not necessary to specify that people should judge. It's like telling someone that they should breathe or see...

Yorzhik

January 15th, 2008, 01:53 AM

ShadowScythe13

January 15th, 2008, 07:16 AM

So you are saying that judging people is wrong?

That's the general idea.

Rom 2 1-4
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

John 5 22-23
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

John 8 14-16
Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.

Lighthouse

January 15th, 2008, 09:28 PM

A bump for those who haven't read this yet.
Thanks, Fiddy. I'm leading my Bible Study this Saturday, and I am doing it on this very subject. I could use this.

AROTO

January 18th, 2008, 11:38 PM

I always laugh at the do not judge crowd. When they they tell us that it is "wrong to judge" aren't they judging:confused:

Lighthouse

January 19th, 2008, 11:09 AM

Thanks, Fiddy. I'm leading my Bible Study this Saturday, and I am doing it on this very subject. I could use this.
It was canceled.:(

secret33

January 20th, 2008, 11:34 AM

"I always laugh at the do not judge crowd. When they they tell us that it is "wrong to judge" aren't they judging?"

Sometimes I laugh at them too, and sometimes I laugh at the judgers.
There is a certain spirit of Truth, wisdom, and compassion in Jesus teachings on judgment. If you can discern that, if you are following along with the spirit of what he was saying, you will understand.

The petty nature of the point you try to make above is just trying to obscure the message. Just as someone trying to apply the principle of non-judgment to attack our basic human sense of morality is.

Lighthouse

January 20th, 2008, 12:54 PM

It was canceled.:(
It's back on for Feb 2nd.:banana:

Yorzhik

January 21st, 2008, 11:38 AM

So you are saying that judging people is wrong?
That's the general idea.
Hypocrite.

red77

February 3rd, 2008, 07:48 AM

Of course we have to judge, otherwise we are taken out of the spiritual battle (not to mention the culture war).

And fool, I read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. It's too bad she only met liberal Christians, and never ones like those who run TheologyOnline. If she had, there would be a chance that she wouldn't be in hell right now. But nicer-than-God Christians became an unnecessary stumbling block helping to destroy her.

-Pastor Bob Enyart
Denver Bible Church

Er....

Who are you or anyone else to say that there isn't a chance that she isn't in hell 'right now'?

For all you know she may and most likely will have met fundamentalist Christians during her life, it always bemuses me when human beings feel as though they have the ultimate knowledge of another person's life and destiny as though they can judge their heart, and I was under the impression that only God could do so.....

Clete

February 3rd, 2008, 08:10 AM

Er....

Who are you or anyone else to say that there isn't a chance that she isn't in hell 'right now'?

For all you know she may and most likely will have met fundamentalist Christians during her life, it always bemuses me when human beings feel as though they have the ultimate knowledge of another person's life and destiny as though they can judge their heart, and I was under the impression that only God could do so.....

Bob's right.

She's in Hell. At the very least there is no reason to believe otherwise or to even entertain the possibility of the contrary. That is where atheists go, you know. It isn't necessary to have any magic dust or a crystal ball to know that. Nor is it necessary to have "ultimate knowledge of another person's heart" or to "judge their heart"; God has already done that. Pretty much all one needs to do is to read the Bible once, and you'll know God well enough to be able to make such statements about the ultimate destiny of all sorts of people.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

red77

February 3rd, 2008, 08:50 AM

Bob's right.

She's in Hell. At the very least there is no reason to believe otherwise or to even entertain the possibility of the contrary. That is where atheists go, you know. It isn't necessary to have any magic dust or a crystal ball to know that. Nor is it necessary to have "ultimate knowledge of another person's heart" or to "judge their heart"; God has already done that. Pretty much all one needs to do is to read the Bible once, and you'll know God well enough to be able to make such statements about the ultimate destiny of all sorts of people.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Bob is wrong to presume as much and so are you, neither of you are God and neither of you know this persons heart, period.

You, and anyone else who presume to dictate the hearts and destinies of others place yourself on the same mantle and knowledge of God, as arrogant as it is compassionless....

Do you know everything about this person from conception through to death? Do you know the events that shaped this persons life, their every thought, their every feeling, their hopes, losses, background, pain, dreams, disappointments, triumphs, tragedies?

If you do then congratulations and my apologies, you are in fact in a position to judge this person as you see fit......

Somehow though I reckon it would only be God who would have this much knowledge about a person, what say you?

:think:

MaryContrary

February 4th, 2008, 05:45 AM

red77

February 4th, 2008, 06:10 AM

Red, what the heck? It really doesn't occur to you that you're maybe arguing so vehemently against something other that the statement in question? It seems a fairly valid assumption to me and I fail to see anything morally questionable in making it. Certainly nothing worth the passion you present here, anyway. I would guess you just find Enyart arrogant, that angers you and you're lashing out. Maybe it's something else, I dunno. :idunno:

I find anyone arrogant when they make claim to know the outcomes and destinies of other people, and i find it arrogant because it is, It's sickening to see people talk about others as if they're the judge and jury, you might see nothing morally questionable or arrogant in which case you probably don't get it, it's got nothing to do with 'lashing out'..... Bob Enyart, Clete, you and for that matter me do not know the hearts of other people, only God can know that....correct?

chatmaggot

February 4th, 2008, 06:15 AM

When it comes to the topic of judging, some Christians often say that other Christians shouldn't judge unbelievers...but it is ok to judge fellow believers (because they are held to the same standards).

Should Christians judge unbelievers?

red77

February 4th, 2008, 06:34 AM

chatmaggot

February 4th, 2008, 07:32 AM

Judge them for what? Unbelief?

For their actions.

Some Christians say that Christians shouldn't judge the actions of non-christians because they aren't held to the same standard. As an analogy (a weak one...but one that was tossed to me in conversation) is an American judge cannot "judge" the actions of someone in Amsterdam for breaking an American law. The American judge would be the Christian believer and the person from Amsterdam would be the unbeliever.

I was told, in an email conversation, that there is "not one ounce of Biblical evidence to support the statement that Christians should judge non-Christians".

I have already written a response but was just curious as to what others thought.

chatmaggot

February 4th, 2008, 09:18 AM

It was canceled.:(

Just out of curiosity, in your lesson for your bible study on this topic how would you have addressed the question about Christians judging non-Christians?

Lighthouse

February 4th, 2008, 01:40 PM

Just out of curiosity, in your lesson for your bible study on this topic how would you have addressed the question about Christians judging non-Christians?
Well, when we finally have the Bible study again, I will be leading. And this will be my topic.

And Jesus judged/s all. Why not us?

I know the verses in 1 Corinthians 5. And from how I see it, we certainly judge those who are brothers differently than we judge those who are not. Those who are, we are to disassociate with, when they have crossed certain lines. Those who are not, we are to still go to them. And preach the word. How can we preach the word if we do not judge that they need it? How can we preach the word if we do not judge them, and tell them they are unrighteous and need Christ? We judge their actions, and we judge their hearts.

Rusha

February 4th, 2008, 01:49 PM

For their actions.

Some Christians say that Christians shouldn't judge the actions of non-christians because they aren't held to the same standard. As an analogy (a weak one...but one that was tossed to me in conversation) is an American judge cannot "judge" the actions of someone in Amsterdam for breaking an American law. The American judge would be the Christian believer and the person from Amsterdam would be the unbeliever.

I was told, in an email conversation, that there is "not one ounce of Biblical evidence to support the statement that Christians should judge non-Christians".

I have already written a response but was just curious as to what others thought.

I don't mind being judged within the confines of the current and *legitimate* legal system, however, outside of that standard, any judgment made towards me is irrelevent and I treat it as such.

If more ppl lived by the standard of the "golden rule", then necessary judgments would be rarely be needed.

chatmaggot

February 4th, 2008, 01:56 PM

Well, when we finally have the Bible study again, I will be leading. And this will be my topic.

And Jesus judged/s all. Why not us?

I know the verses in 1 Corinthians 5. And from how I see it, we certainly judge those who are brothers differently than we judge those who are not. Those who are, we are to disassociate with, when they have crossed certain lines. Those who are not, we are to still go to them. And preach the word. How can we preach the word if we do not judge that they need it? How can we preach the word if we do not judge them, and tell them they are unrighteous and need Christ? We judge their actions, and we judge their hearts.

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 are those used to state that Christians shouldn't judge unbelievers (or those "outside" the body).

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges.

Lighthouse

February 4th, 2008, 03:03 PM

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 are those used to state that Christians shouldn't judge unbelievers (or those "outside" the body).
Yes.

MaryContrary

February 4th, 2008, 03:47 PM

I find anyone arrogant when they make claim to know the outcomes and destinies of other people, and i find it arrogant because it is, It's sickening to see people talk about others as if they're the judge and jury, you might see nothing morally questionable or arrogant in which case you probably don't get it, it's got nothing to do with 'lashing out'..... Bob Enyart, Clete, you and for that matter me do not know the hearts of other people, only God can know that....correct?

Sure, that's correct. Of course. My point, though, is that it's a reasonable assumption. Even if I were to give you "arrogant" it still would be only tenuously so and hardly worth your reaction. Just saying maybe you should step back and take a look at that. Why does it tick you off to that extent? If I were to make a similar assumption about anything else I doubt it would be an issue for you.
Anyway, take or leave it. I have zero interest in discussing it with you as I've long since learned debating anything with you is an exercise in futility.

Clete

February 4th, 2008, 05:22 PM

Bob is wrong to presume as much and so are you, neither of you are God and neither of you know this persons heart, period.
Have you read any of her books?
I have!

And baring some death bed confession, which is less likely than my ever swimming the English channel, she's in Hell!

You, and anyone else who presume to dictate the hearts and destinies of others place yourself on the same mantle and knowledge of God, as arrogant as it is compassionless....
On the contrary. I quoted the Bible and side with God. Those who do not believe in the only begotten Son of the Living God are condemned already. I have no need to know a thing about their hearts other than that they do not believe. That one bit of knowledge allows me to apply the judgment God Himself has already declared via His word.

And the truth is always compassionate. It might not be nice, but it is loving. It does no one any favors to say anything other than that one of the world's most famous atheists is in Hell.

Do you know everything about this person from conception through to death?
Of course not! It is not necessary to know everything about this person or any other person. I don't pretend to know what her specific punishments will be like in Hell, but simply and only that she is in fact in Hell, in permanent separation from God, as will anyone be who dies without faith in Christ.

Do you know the events that shaped this persons life, their every thought, their every feeling, their hopes, losses, background, pain, dreams, disappointments, triumphs, tragedies?
Do you know anything at all about the Bible or about who God is?

If you do then congratulations and my apologies, you are in fact in a position to judge this person as you see fit......
You are a fool.

You who sit in judgment of me while condemning me for doing the same.

Hypocrite!

Somehow though I reckon it would only be God who would have this much knowledge about a person, what say you?

:think:
I say you're a nicer than God idiot who wouldn't know the Bible if someone repeatedly smacked you in the head with one.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Knight

February 4th, 2008, 05:33 PM

I say you're a nicer than God idiot who wouldn't know the Bible if someone repeatedly smacked you in the head with one. Amen to that! :up:

cattyfan

February 4th, 2008, 06:10 PM

red77

February 5th, 2008, 06:24 AM

[QUOTE=Clete;1669041]Have you read any of her books?
I have!

And baring some death bed confession, which is less likely than my ever swimming the English channel, she's in Hell!

No, I haven't, I've read some of Dawkins and others, doubtless if Dawkins were to die tonight you'd be saying the same, that you know for sure he's in 'hell'....

On the contrary. I quoted the Bible and side with God. Those who do not believe in the only begotten Son of the Living God are condemned already. I have no need to know a thing about their hearts other than that they do not believe. That one bit of knowledge allows me to apply the judgment God Himself has already declared via His word.

And the truth is always compassionate. It might not be nice, but it is loving. It does no one any favors to say anything other than that one of the world's most famous atheists is in Hell.

You're the one dictating that you know exactly what these peoples thoughts are up until death, you don't, heck, even the pastor acknowledged this in one of our earlier debates regarding what to say to the family and loved ones of someone who apparently didn't believe before death, you have no idea what the dying thoughts are from someone, only that person and God have that knowledge including with this woman and anyone else...what would you say to the family of this woman? That she's in hell, no two ways about it for sure? Is that the "compassionate truth"?

the truth of the matter is that you don't know her whereabouts, much as you may make claim to to do so,

Of course not! It is not necessary to know everything about this person or any other person. I don't pretend to know what her specific punishments will be like in Hell, but simply and only that she is in fact in Hell, in permanent separation from God, as will anyone be who dies without faith in Christ.

once again you do not "know" at all, you presume to but thats about it....

Do you know anything at all about the Bible or about who God is?

I know enough to know it doesn't say we are to condemn the deceased based on our own presumptions, that there is only one who does the judging that matters....

And this 'do you know the bible at all' tactic is one used by legalists all over the place, it's used by people who would say your own beliefs are in error and it hardly accomplishes much...

I heard this earlier on in my life from people who presumed to know the outcome of other peoples lives when I was at a church I attended at the time, I'd found out that a 15 year old I used to know at school some years earlier had committed suicide, I mentioned this to some at the church and what did they say? He was in hell, no two ways about it.....

Even after explaining that he had lost both of his parents, one of whom to suicide themselves, and that he and his younger brother had been taken into care.....

Were they right Clete?

You are a fool.

You who sit in judgment of me while condemning me for doing the same.

Hypocrite!

If I was "condemning" you then I would indeed be a hypocrite

I say you're a nicer than God idiot who wouldn't know the Bible if someone repeatedly smacked you in the head with one.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, much as I am to mine, neither are relevant to the question I asked you however.....

red77

February 5th, 2008, 06:28 AM

Sure, that's correct. Of course. My point, though, is that it's a reasonable assumption. Even if I were to give you "arrogant" it still would be only tenuously so and hardly worth your reaction. Just saying maybe you should step back and take a look at that. Why does it tick you off to that extent? If I were to make a similar assumption about anything else I doubt it would be an issue for you.
Anyway, take or leave it. I have zero interest in discussing it with you as I've long since learned debating anything with you is an exercise in futility.

Mary, if you'd 'long since learnt' then why did you engage me in discussing this topic? as far as I'm concerned it's more than 'tenously' so, although if you see my above answer to Clete you may understand why it is something that is downright sickening to hear, I heard it firsthand from a bunch of puritans who thought they knew enough to condemn a 15 year old boy based on his suicide, in the words of one: "yes, he's down there sizzling".....

Caille

February 5th, 2008, 06:33 AM

Mind you, this is the same crowd that was clamoring for the death of the boy who attacked the girl in the Colorado High School the other day, in direct disobedience to the instructions given in the Bible. It would seem that their powers of discernment need a bit of tweaking before they're ready to be put into practice. As far as whether any specific person is in Hell or not? Anybody who claims to speak definitively regarding this has already identified themselves as unworthy of being taken seriously.

Caille

February 5th, 2008, 06:37 AM

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 are those used to state that Christians shouldn't judge unbelievers (or those "outside" the body).

Excellent point chatmaggot, and one that seems lost on many who wish to rule over all. Personally, I think the Amish and the Mennonites have it right. They certainly seem less confused than many "religious" people here.

chatmaggot

February 5th, 2008, 09:28 AM

Happy to see this thread. This very topic came up this week at Bible study when a woman said she "wasn't comfortable judging the actions of the person sitting next to her." She's one of the "judge not" crowd, and has much to learn.

We are called on to judge right and wrong everyday. It's called discernment.

When someone says to you that we should not judge those outside the church and the reason they give is 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 how do ( would) you respond to that?

cattyfan

February 5th, 2008, 11:27 AM

When someone says to you that we should not judge those outside the church and the reason they give is 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 how do ( would) you respond to that?

You'll note in my original post, I was talking specifically about a woman who didn't want to judge the person next to her in church...but I do believe we have a duty to judge all people. It's how we handle that judgement that is important.

But I'm not afraid to admit there are things I need to learn about when and how to judge. That's why I put in a request for our pastors to do a Bible study on these issues in the coming months. It would be foolish of me to try to answer before I study more.

PastorKevin

February 5th, 2008, 11:59 AM

Ah......So nice!

This message is hidden because red77 is on your ignore list.

Caille

February 5th, 2008, 12:02 PM

You're doing.... what? Calling attention to the fact that you're ignoring red77? Do you want a pat on the back?

red77

February 5th, 2008, 01:06 PM

Ah......So nice!

Thats a shame, I'd actually brought up one of those rare occasions when I was in kinda agreement with you in response to Clete......

chatmaggot

February 5th, 2008, 02:21 PM

PastorKevin

February 5th, 2008, 08:43 PM

I've directed this question directly to some and now I ask it to all...

When someone says to you that we should not judge those outside the church and the reason they give is 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 how do (would) you respond to that?

If Christians are to judge those outside the church then what specifically is Paul referring to?

Ok, I have an answer for you on this, and I think it is a bit simpler than many may think.

The main thing to understand is that within the context of 1 Corinthians 5, Paul is specifically dealing with the topic of immorality.

What's the point?

He is teaching the basic concept that if a person calls themselves a brother, and is sexually immoral, then they should be put out of the fellowship. A brother should not keep company with such a person if they claim to be a brother and are sexually immoral. At that point the church needs to exercise church discipline.

What of those OUTSIDE the fellowship?

As far as judging someone outside the church who is engaging in that kind of behavior, the important thing to note is that church discipline would have no effect on an unbeliever. That is really the essence of what the Apostle is saying. In other words, withdrawing fellowship and/or putting an unbeliever out of the fellowship would have no effect whatsoever.

That is why Paul says:

12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”

What is the purpose of putting someone out of the fellowship?

The idea behind church discipline is highlighted earlier in the chapter:

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

It's always done with the goal of getting that professing brother to repent and turn away from that wickedness! The text also hints that such a person is not really a believer at all! (see again the end of verse #5 "that his spirit may be saved"). A person who is already saved and has been sealed with the Holy Spirit does NOT need to be saved! :think:

So again the idea of this particular passage is church discipline, and that church discipline should not be used on unbelievers.

Another point to consider:
The other damaging thing that can be done with this text is to say that we should constantly keep company with sexually immoral unbelievers! Paul by no means is advocating that either.

But the idea behind what he says in verses 9-10 is that we cannot reach the lost with the message of reconciliation (see 2 Corinthians 5:18-21) if we aren't in their midst as in being around them! Further he makes the point that we cannot get away from them, for they are everywhere around us! (The gas station, the supermarket, the restaraunt, etc....) (See verse #10- We'd have to go out of this world!)

WIN THEM TO CHRIST!

This means rubbing shoulders with the wicked and the sexually immoral at least for the purpose of winning them to Christ and during the normal course of daily living. Certainly the text does NOT mean that we participate in, celebrate, or affirm, the wicked lifestyle of a sexually immoral unbeliever. There are far more passages in Scripture that teach that we should not do this.

This also does not mean that we should not come to the place where we realize we are casting pearls to swine and move on after we've made attempts to reach a particular lost person.

So to summarize:
Paul is just saying that we can't reach them if we're not in their midst (some had misunderstood his teaching which is why he said at the beginning of verse #10 "Yet I certainly did not mean..."), and he's saying that we cannot reach an unbeliever by utilizing church discipline or putting that immoral unbeliever out of the fellowship of the brethren, because they just won't care.

chatmaggot

February 5th, 2008, 09:02 PM

Thank you for your response PastorKevin. I always appreciate your insight!

Thank you again.

PastorKevin

February 5th, 2008, 09:16 PM

Thank you for your response PastorKevin. I always appreciate your insight!

Thank you again.

Anytime my friend and brother. :up:

Nang

February 13th, 2008, 04:43 PM

I always laugh at the do not judge crowd. When they they tell us that it is "wrong to judge" aren't they judging:confused:

Christians are expected to judge; Christians by necessity judge.

Judge = Discern and evaluate.

As a Christian, I can evaluate and discern that many around me are unbelievers and non-Christians, due to their sinful behaviors, bad choices and practices, and lack of love and faithfulness in God and His Word. I am allowed to judge these things, and warn my fellow man that they should repent of such wickedness.

However, that does not mean I can or should tell them they are forever lost to hellfire, because for all I know, tomorrow God might extend and bestow His grace upon that same person; regenerating them to new life in His Son, and gifting them with faith to believe and ability to turn from their sinful ways.

We never know whether today's enemy, might be a brother tomorrow.

Christians are forbidden to judge the eternal fate of another person. No Christian has the right to tell another, they are going to hell, for it is not in the purview of any man to know the ultimate fate of another.

So, God tells us to love our enemies; pray for our enemies; hope for our enemies . . .all the while refusing to condone their practices and sins.

Nang

0000

February 19th, 2008, 11:11 AM

It's how we handle that judgement that is important.And how is that judgment to be handled?

But I'm not afraid to admit there are things I need to learn about when and how to judge.I judge that it's ideal for you to adjoin practice with confession.

It would be foolish of me to try to answer before I study more.Agreed. This may be something that you need to work on.

Prolifeguyswife

February 19th, 2008, 11:21 AM

This is good stuff. :thumb: When someone tells me not to judge, I tell them not to force their morality on me :D

Rusha

February 19th, 2008, 11:37 AM

This is good stuff. :thumb: When someone tells me not to judge, I tell them not to force their morality on me :D

Everyone judges ... it's human nature. Whether or not someone's judgment is actually helpful and taken seriously depends entirely on how they come across.

If some is judging to judge without any intent on helping, then the judgment is being done for the purpose of boistering the judger's self esteem and self worth.

Poly

February 19th, 2008, 11:43 AM

Everyone judges ... it's human nature. Whether or not someone's judgment is actually helpful and taken seriously depends entirely on how they come across.

If some is judging to judge without any intent on helping, then the judgment is being done for the purpose of boistering the judger's self esteem and self worth.

I always pray that I'll get to be a part of throwing the book at Hillary Clinton on judgement day. But whoever gets to do this won't be doing it with any intent of helping her because it's too late. But it will likely help the one/s doing the judging when they see the vengeance and rejoice.

Prolifeguyswife

February 19th, 2008, 11:46 AM

Rusha

February 19th, 2008, 11:50 AM

Yeah, Jinkx, you want to join us on Judgment day? You would be a really great bookthrower. All you have to do is turn your life over to Jesus!

No thanks, I prefer throwing things only at those that actually break the law or act maliciously with the intent of hurting others. Throwing things at those that disagree with me doesn't meet that criteria.

But thanks for the invite anyways! :thumb:

PastorKevin

February 19th, 2008, 12:28 PM

No thanks, I prefer throwing things only at those that actually break the law or act maliciously with the intent of hurting others. Throwing things at those that disagree with me doesn't meet that criteria.

But thanks for the invite anyways! :thumb:

How sad that you are willingly choosing the smoking over the non-smoking section of eternity. :(

Rusha

February 19th, 2008, 12:32 PM

How sad that you are willingly choosing the smoking over the non-smoking section of eternity. :(

Not particularly. I know that cigarettes exist, tried them once at the age of 16 and decided I hated them. It's pretty easy to make a decision IF the evidence presented is provable and infallible.

Lighthouse

February 19th, 2008, 01:35 PM

Not particularly. I know that cigarettes exist, tried them once at the age of 16 and decided I hated them. It's pretty easy to make a decision IF the evidence presented is provable and infallible.
Like an F22, that went over your head.

red77

February 20th, 2008, 06:08 AM

I always pray that I'll get to be a part of throwing the book at Hillary Clinton on judgement day. But whoever gets to do this won't be doing it with any intent of helping her because it's too late. But it will likely help the one/s doing the judging when they see the vengeance and rejoice.

What kind of prayer is that? Where is the Christianity in praying to be part of doing this to someone before they've even died? I would have thought that praying for her to find this 'narrow path' would have been more in keeping with what God would want? Seeing as God doesn't want anyone to perish i would have thought this would include Hilary Clinton...
Strikes me that this is purely to do with a strong dislike of the woman because her politics differ from yours.....

red77

February 20th, 2008, 06:11 AM

How sad that you are willingly choosing the smoking over the non-smoking section of eternity. :(

If being part of some vengeful 'book throwing' club and 'rejoicing in the justice' of seeing others suffer is the "non smoking section"....

then pass the Benson and Hedges.....

:rain:

Poly

February 20th, 2008, 10:11 AM

Seeing as God doesn't want anyone to perish i would have thought this would include Hilary Clinton...

It does. But she doesn't believe or care that she will one day perish since she's chosen to serve the god of this world and refused the salvation of the One who has offered to keep her from perishing.

Strikes me that this is purely to do with a strong dislike of the woman because her politics differ from yours.....

You're almost correct except strong dislike is too nice. I absolutely detest her with every fiber of my being. Everytime I see her face I anticipate her vengeance all the more. Her politics differ from God and since I agree with God's politics then of course hers differ from mine.

If being part of some vengeful 'book throwing' club and 'rejoicing in the justice' of seeing others suffer is the "non smoking section"....

then pass the Benson and Hedges.....

:rain:

People who love the Lord want righteousness and justice. They long for it. They anticipate it.

Romans 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

And knowing that justice will one day happen for all is something that brings a Christian great comfort.

Psalm 58:10
The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked,

Would I rather see Hillary Clinton humble herself before the Lord and repent for all the evil she's done? Absolutely!! But I seriously doubt that will ever happen. And if it doesn't I will rejoice when vengeance is poured upon her head as well as all others who have dragged the name of a holy, good, and righteous God through the mud. It will be a great day when Christ "grinds them to powder".

elected4ever

February 20th, 2008, 10:46 AM

What is the purpose of judging when it comes to a believer judging? Is it for the purpose of condemning others? Jesus said, "I come not to condemn." Why did Jesus say those words? Is it not that the world has already been judged? Has not the world been judged guilty before God? It is not our judgment that condemns the world but God's. We are to inform the world of not an impending judgment but of the judgment that all ready exist. It is this existing judgment that man deny.

There is not one act of sin that will send a person to hell. Men go to hell because he has been condemned all ready to death. How many times does a person have to die to be dead? After a person is dead, what more can you do? How many times can a person be executed? Homosexuality, murder, rape, and all manner of lawlessness are but symptoms of the death that man has already experienced. Requiring a dead person to act as though he were alive does nothing to elevate his dead condition. The law proves that. Even when the law is codified into the law of the land. Israel proved that.

Judgment is for our benefit not the worlds. We have not the mind of Christ for the world's benefit but for ours. Rightly judging does not require that we make the world into our image but that we conform our actions into the will of God. It is not necessary for us to learn the spiritual things of God because we have the righteous divine spirit of God alive within us. We are of the spirit and not of the flesh and in fact the flesh remains dead to God. So if you live by the flesh you remain dead to God and it is still under the death penalty of the righteous judgment of God.

We who are spiritual teach our flesh according to our true righteous nature, not law. That is the war that we fight. If we fight this fight according to law then the righteousness that we thought the law brings to us in fact becomes our death because the law condemns and brings forth our death because of the weakness of the flesh.

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 11:11 AM

What is the purpose of judging when it comes to a believer judging? Is it for the purpose of condemning others? Jesus said, "I come not to condemn." Why did Jesus say those words? Is it not that the world has already been judged? Has not the world been judged guilty before God? It is not our judgment that condemns the world but God's. We are to inform the world of not an impending judgment but of the judgment that all ready exist. It is this existing judgment that man deny.

I want the scripture reference for "I come not to condemn."

Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude. - from Bob Enyart's Nicer Than God. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=608340#post608340)

Judgment is for our benefit not the worlds.
.

How will the world know that they need Jesus if they are not told the truth about their sin? I, personally, know of tons of people who have come to Jesus because they were openly rebuked.

elected4ever

February 20th, 2008, 11:36 AM

I want the scripture reference for "I come not to condemn."John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude. - from Bob Enyart's Nicer Than God. (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=608340#post608340)Dead people are offended by righteousness. Jesus was born righteous by the seed of God. Righteousness is always an affront to unrighteousness. People hate Jesus and us without cause. We don't have to do anything but be the righteousness of God to be hated by man. It is part of our heritage as children of God. We don't have to work at being hated. Condemning the condemned does nothing but boost the ego of the carnal Christian. Makes him feel important to his pears.

How will the world know that they need Jesus if they are not told the truth about their sin? I, personally, know of tons of people who have come to Jesus because they were openly rebuked.People do not need to be told that they sin. They already know that. They need to know that they are dead and they may have life in Christ Jesus.

red77

February 20th, 2008, 12:20 PM

It does. But she doesn't believe or care that she will one day perish since she's chosen to serve the god of this world and refused the salvation of the One who has offered to keep her from perishing.

How do you know? I'm sure she realises her own mortality as much as you or I, this still seems to be a case of political differences which is not relevant to a belief in God...

You're almost correct except strong dislike is too nice. I absolutely detest her with every fiber of my being. Everytime I see her face I anticipate her vengeance all the more. Her politics differ from God and since I agree with God's politics then of course hers differ from mine.

Again, politics, how can you agree with God on politics when there is no scripture that encourages people to hate their 'opponents' with such a veracity as to wish to be part of their judgement before they've even died? If 'everytime you see her face you anticipate her vengeance all the more' then you're really just saying you hate the woman as far as I can see....and all over poltical difference which as human beings is a pretty common phenomenon, do you anticipate doing the same to all of those who disagree with you on political matters?

People who love the Lord want righteousness and justice. They long for it. They anticipate it.

Romans 6:10
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

And knowing that justice will one day happen for all is something that brings a Christian great comfort.

Psalm 58:10
The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked,

Would I rather see Hillary Clinton humble herself before the Lord and repent for all the evil she's done? Absolutely!! But I seriously doubt that will ever happen. And if it doesn't I will rejoice when vengeance is poured upon her head as well as all others who have dragged the name of a holy, good, and righteous God through the mud. It will be a great day when Christ "grinds them to powder".

But, if you seriously want to see this woman 'humble and repent' then why aren't you praying for that to happen as oppose to praying to be part of a group who 'throws the book at her'? Because you "doubt it will ever happen"? Is that really a good enough reason?

MaryContrary

February 20th, 2008, 12:24 PM

People do not need to be told that they sin. They already know that. They need to know that they are dead and they may have life in Christ Jesus.
Yes, they do and no, they don't. People lie to themselves and convince themselves what they're doing is right all the time. It's exceedingly rare for a person to do something they know full well is wrong without first convincing themselves that it is, in fact, "right" or that they at least have no control over their own behavior. The only thing that has a chance of defeating self-deception is another person pointing out that what they're doing is wrong.

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 12:34 PM

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

I thought that might be what you were referring to. God is saying that He sent his Son to be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus wasn't sent to condemn the world to death, but to bring salvation.

But Jesus also said of Himself, ""Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34 NASB)

people are offended by righteousness. Jesus was born righteous by the seed of God. Righteousness is always an affront to unrighteousness. People hate Jesus and us without cause. We don't have to do anything but be the righteousness of God to be hated by man. It is part of our heritage as children of God. We don't have to work at being hated. Condemning the condemned does nothing but boost the ego of the carnal Christian. Makes him feel important to his pears.

People do not need to be told that they sin. They already know that. They need to know that they are dead and they may have life in Christ Jesus.

I disagree with almost everything in the above statement. First, our "heritage" is to judge rightly. Jesus said, Luk 12:57 ¶ "Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?"

1Cr 6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

You can't expect a non-Christian to know what is righteous. If you don't tell someone floundering in sin that what they are doing is wrong, they may never know. They first need to realize the truth of Romans 3:23, then repent for their actions. Why would they repent if they don't think they're doing anything wrong?
In Romans 12:9, where we are told to abhor what is evil. How can we abhor what is evil if we don't first judge what it is?

Christians live in the “building” for which Christ is “the chief corner stone” (Eph. 2:20). And if that Stone falls on someone it “will grind him to powder” (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18; cf. Ex. 32:20). Better to be judged by a Christian than crushed by Christ (www.kgov.com).* From kgov.com by Bob Enyart

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 12:35 PM

But, if you seriously want to see this woman 'humble and repent' then why aren't you praying for that to happen as oppose to praying to be part of a group who 'throws the book at her'? Because you "doubt it will ever happen"? Is that really a good enough reason?
This demonstrates your lack of Biblical understanding.

Throwing the book (i.e. the law) at her is precisely the right thing to do if you want for her to repent. Conviction of sin is always the precursor to repentance. She cannot get saved until she understands that she is lost.

Read Romans 7 and Galatians 3 and elsewhere.

red77

February 20th, 2008, 12:46 PM

This demonstrates your lack of Biblical understanding.

Throwing the book (i.e. the law) at her is precisely the right thing to do if you want for her to repent. Conviction of sin is always the precursor to repentance. She cannot get saved until she understands that she is lost.

Read Romans 7 and Galatians 3 and elsewhere.

Um, have you actually read the last coupla pages of this thread? I suggest you do before saying as much here.......!

elected4ever

February 20th, 2008, 01:40 PM

I thought that might be what you were referring to. God is saying that He sent his Son to be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus wasn't sent to condemn the world to death, but to bring salvation. How could Jesus be saved through the sacrifice of himself?

But Jesus also said of Himself, ""Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword." (Matthew 10:34 NASB)Do you expect any thing different than devision between the righteous and unrighteous? It is the difference between the living and the dead.

I disagree with almost everything in the above statement. First, our "heritage" is to judge rightly. Jesus said, Luk 12:57 ¶ "Yea, and why even of yourselves judge ye not what is right?"Every man does that whether living or dead. Every man judges what he thinks is right. The difference is that the unrighteous judges by what he thinks is right according to his unrighteousness he still thinks it is right judgment. You have to be made righteous to have righteous judgment.

1Cr 6:3 "Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?"

You can't expect a non-Christian to know what is righteous. If you don't tell someone floundering in sin that what they are doing is wrong, they may never know. They first need to realize the truth of Romans 3:23, then repent for their actions. Why would they repent if they don't think they're doing anything wrong?
In Romans 12:9, where we are told to abhor what is evil. How can we abhor what is evil if we don't first judge what it is?If you are righteous as Jesus is righteous you don't have to be told. You know, You have the mind of Christ. You are alive from the dead.

Christians live in the “building” for which Christ is “the chief corner stone” (Eph. 2:20). And if that Stone falls on someone it “will grind him to powder” (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18; cf. Ex. 32:20). Better to be judged by a Christian than crushed by Christ (www.kgov.com).* From kgov.com by Bob EnyartThe whole world stands guilty before God and yes the stone that has been rejected in favor of law is grinding men into a fine powder. That is because man had rather have law than liberty. Men love death more than life. If you live by the law you have departed from faith. Where is your judgment? In the law or in liberty? Have you been set free from the law or are you still in bondage to the law?

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 02:15 PM

How could Jesus be saved through the sacrifice of himself?

I mis-typed (obviously). I meant to type that the world could be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus.

Every man does that whether living or dead. Every man judges what he thinks is right. The difference is that the unrighteous judges by what he thinks is right according to his unrighteousness he still thinks it is right judgment. You have to be made righteous to have righteous judgment.

I don't think that is a response to what I wrote. My point is that we, as Christians, having righteous judgment, have a responsibility to judge others - rightly.
Proverbs 27:5 - Open rebuke is better than hidden love.

Pro 28:23 He that rebuketh a man afterwards shall find more favour than he that flattereth with the tongue.

Here is a clear example of a Christian rebuking a non-believer:

Luke3:19&20 19 But when John rebuked Herod the tetrarch because of Herodias, his brother's wife, and all the other evil things he had done, 20 Herod added this to them all: He locked John up in prison.

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 04:49 PM

Um, have you actually read the last coupla pages of this thread? I suggest you do before saying as much here.......!

What a brilliant rebuttal!

:rolleyes:

elected4ever

February 20th, 2008, 05:01 PM

[QUOTE=Prolifeguyswife;1682685]I mis-typed (obviously). I meant to type that the world could be saved through the sacrifice of Jesus. OK:thumb:

I don't think that is a response to what I wrote. My point is that we, as Christians, having righteous judgment, have a responsibility to judge others - rightly. What law are you going to apply to judge rightly? I have been very critical of my government because it operates lawlessly according to its own law. Absolutely no one is subject to the law of Moses anymore but we are subject to the laws of the society in which we live. There is no law applicable but the law of faith for us. We believe God or we don't. It is incumbent upon us as children of God to hold ourselves accountable to one another but not to the world. What fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness. We are in the world but not of the world.

It is nonsense to think that the dead can live like the living. Why are you requiring that of them. It is imposable for them to do. We should use whatever influence we have to change unrighteous law I agree but it is not deeds that send people to hell. People go to hell because they are dead no matter their moral activities.

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 05:28 PM

Absolutely no one is subject to the law of Moses anymore but we are subject to the laws of the society in which we live. There is no law applicable but the law of faith for us.

That is ludicrous! We are absolutely to follow the Mosaic Law - It's the ritualistic Levitical law that doesn't apply to our society - that is, men cut their hair and wear garments of mixed fabrics today, etc. The Mosaic law is part of our testimony - why do we believe that adultery, murder, thievery, etc. are wrong, if we don't have Biblical guidelines to follow.

**I want to be clear** I am not saying I believe in works-based salvation. Once we are saved, we are covered by grace - but Jesus never repealed the Mosaic law. In fact, he affirmed it in Matthew 5:17-19.

The issue at hand is that we have a responsibility to judge and rebuke others. If I see someone about to harm someone else, I would judge that harming another human is wrong, then rebuke the person about to harm another.

A couple living together before they are married will do well with a Christian neighbor who invites them to church, smiling with a "God loves you" thrown in for good measure. But what if the Pastor never preaches about sin? What if they are not told that what they are doing (any sin would be an example) is wrong?

Why would those people ever accept Christ? Who needs a Savior if you don't believe you've done anything wrong? Why would you need grace if you don't think you've sinned?

Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," is a KEY part of salvation. If we do not rebuke others, Christian or non-Christian, they can never grasp the saving message of God's grace.

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 05:34 PM

elected4ever

February 20th, 2008, 05:55 PM

That is ludicrous! We are absolutely to follow the Mosaic Law Nothing more need be said. If that is what you believe you are yet dead to God. You have no right to claim God's grace as extending to you for salvation. Why? Because you have departed from the grace that has been extended to you. If you live by the law then you are obligated to the whole law. Not just the parts you like. You are making a mockery of Christ completed work on your behalf. What punishment are you worthy of for treading under foot the Son of God? You are a dead person who talks the talk but lives like the dead you condemn.:execute:

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 05:56 PM

That is ludicrous! We are absolutely to follow the Mosaic Law - It's the ritualistic Levitical law that doesn't apply to our society - that is, men cut their hair and wear garments of mixed fabrics today, etc. The Mosaic law is part of our testimony - why do we believe that adultery, murder, thievery, etc. are wrong, if we don't have Biblical guidelines to follow.

**I want to be clear** I am not saying I believe in works-based salvation. Once we are saved, we are covered by grace - but Jesus never repealed the Mosaic law. In fact, he affirmed it in Matthew 5:17-19.

The issue at hand is that we have a responsibility to judge and rebuke others. If I see someone about to harm someone else, I would judge that harming another human is wrong, then rebuke the person about to harm another.

A couple living together before they are married will do well with a Christian neighbor who invites them to church, smiling with a "God loves you" thrown in for good measure. But what if the Pastor never preaches about sin? What if they are not told that what they are doing (any sin would be an example) is wrong?

Why would those people ever accept Christ? Who needs a Savior if you don't believe you've done anything wrong? Why would you need grace if you don't think you've sinned?

Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," is a KEY part of salvation. If we do not rebuke others, Christian or non-Christian, they can never grasp the saving message of God's grace.

Jesus repeatedly taught people to obey the Mosaic Law - all of it - including the rituals, that much is true. But, because of the Dispensation of Grace, which was given to Paul (i.e. it wasn't taught before Paul), we are NOT to follow the Mosaic Law in any respect. The law is for the unbeliever now, not us. If you place yourself under the law (not just for salvation sake but for any reason) Christ will profit you nothing.

You trust Christ for your salvation, why would you rely on the law for your daily walk? Does Paul not tell us explicitly that as we began we are also to continue?
Colossians 2:6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

Do you see? AS we received Christ, so walk! How did we receive Christ? BY FAITH! Therefore, walk by faith not by the law, for faith does not work by law for then our reward would no longer be of grace but of debt because the law is not of faith but of the flesh, but faith works by love.

Read through Galatians 3 and see the following verses...

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

There are, of course, many more but that will do for now.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. E4e is a mouth breathing idiot. Please ignore him. The one or two points he gets right, only serve to lend credence to his stupidity, which makes up the bulk of everything he says. He isn't worth your time and effort.

Mystery

February 20th, 2008, 06:03 PM

It wasn't that God just made some rules up and called it the Mosaic Law

Sure He did.

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 06:07 PM

Nothing more need be said. If that is what you believe you are yet dead to God. You have no right to claim God's grace as extending to you for salvation. Why? Because you have departed from the grace that has been extended to you. If you live by the law then you are obligated to the whole law. Not just the parts you like. You are making a mockery of Christ completed work on your behalf. What punishment are you worthy of for treading under foot the Son of God? You are a dead person who talks the talk but lives like the dead you condemn.:execute:

Excuse me? Did you even read what I posted?

**I want to be clear** I am not saying I believe in works-based salvation. Once we are saved, we are covered by grace - but Jesus never repealed the Mosaic law. In fact, he affirmed it in Matthew 5:17-19.

Are you saying that you think it's ok to steal? lie? murder? Christians have to obey God. Period. If we don't there is grace and forgiveness. But as Paul said, "Should I continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid."

What is "sin" if there is no Biblical standard for obedience? Your foolish answer still did not address the issue of judging non-Christians, which is what this thread is about.

You have no right to incorrectly read my post and proclaim that I am "dead to God" because I use the Mosaic law as a Biblical standard.

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 06:08 PM

Sure He did.
Are you being serious?

Do you actually believe that the Mosaic Law is arbitrary?

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 06:12 PM

Jesus repeatedly taught people to obey the Mosaic Law - all of it - including the rituals, that much is true. But, because of the Dispensation of Grace, which was given to Paul (i.e. it wasn't taught before Paul), we are NOT to follow the Mosaic Law in any respect. The law is for the unbeliever now, not us. If you place yourself under the law (not just for salvation sake but for any reason) Christ will profit you nothing.

You trust Christ for your salvation, why would you rely on the law for your daily walk? Does Paul not tell us explicitly that as we began we are also to continue?
Colossians 2:6 As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him,

Do you see? AS we received Christ, so walk! How did we receive Christ? BY FAITH! Therefore, walk by faith not by the law, for faith does not work by law for then our reward would no longer be of grace but of debt because the law is not of faith but of the flesh, but faith works by love.

Read through Galatians 3 and see the following verses...

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.

Galatians 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Galatians 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

There are, of course, many more but that will do for now.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. E4e is a mouth breathing idiot. Please ignore him. The one or two points he gets right, only serve to lend credence to his stupidity, which makes up the bulk of everything he says. He isn't worth your time and effort.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in what I was trying to say - I was responding to e4e's claims that no one is subject to any law but societal laws.

Society dictates that abortion is good, homosexuality is right, etc. Those are directly in opposition to God's law.

I was trying to explain that although we are covered by grace, we don't dictate our actions by society - rather by the guidelines God has given us in the Bible - even, yes, using the 10 commandments as a basis to show "fruit" of our Christian walk. I thought I made it clear that I believe we are saved by grace, not by works. Sorry if I didn't post articulately.

Mystery

February 20th, 2008, 06:12 PM

Are you being serious?

Do you actually believe that the Mosaic Law is arbitrary?There was no Law before God created the heavens and the earth.

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 06:19 PM

Excuse me? Did you even read what I posted?

**I want to be clear** I am not saying I believe in works-based salvation. Once we are saved, we are covered by grace - but Jesus never repealed the Mosaic law. In fact, he affirmed it in Matthew 5:17-19.

Are you saying that you think it's ok to steal? lie? murder? Christians have to obey God. Period. If we don't there is grace and forgiveness. But as Paul said, "Should I continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid."

What is "sin" if there is no Biblical standard for obedience? Your foolish answer still did not address the issue of judging non-Christians, which is what this thread is about.

You have no right to incorrectly read my post and proclaim that I am "dead to God" because I use the Mosaic law as a Biblical standard.
E4e is a complete idiot and so your response to him is well deserved and appropriate. However, the law is not your standard in Christ. There is no standard in Christ because Christ Himself, in whom you are identified, is the standard. The law does not apply to God. You have been crucified in Christ and the law no longer has any hold on those who have been crucified (i.e. killed) by it. You could no more break the Ten Commandments than you, as an American sitting in New Jersey, could break Australian law. It's against the law in Australia to murder people and if you were to commit murder in New Jersey,( leaving aside New Jersey law for the sake of this argument) then the Australian authorities couldn't do a thing about it because you haven't broken their law. Their law only applies in their country. It is the same with you! If you are in Christ, you are beyond the jurisdiction of the law and are unable to break it.

So what about all those terrible things you do on a regular basis?

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

I have to go get me something to eat! I'll be back later!

Resting in Him,
Clete

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 06:21 PM

There was no Law before God created the heavens and the earth.

Yes, I know that.

That doesn't mean that God just made it up arbitrarily.

elected4ever

February 20th, 2008, 06:22 PM

e4e,

The unbeliever will be judged by the law.

Not the Mosaic Law per se, but the law nevertheless.

Adultery, for example, was wrong before the law said "Thou shalt not commit adultery."
The same is true of murder, stealing, blasphemy, etc. That's why those things made it into the Ten Commandments and then later into the Mosaic Law. It wasn't that God just made some rules up and called it the Mosaic Law, they are based on the very person and character of God Himself and it is therefore the standard by which all will be judged.

You are also wrong about why people go to Hell. Paul explicitly states that without the law, sin is dead and that before the law came he was alive but when the law came sin revived within him and he died. There is no condemnation apart from sin and there is no sin apart from the law (whether it be written on stone or on a person's heart). Thus people go to Hell because of their own sin, not because they were born into some sinful condition that they have no control over.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Like most of my brothers I am instructed out of the law because the law is indeed righteous. Because of the weakness of the flesh the righteousness of the law condemned me and then slew me. I was innocent of sin before the law but it is not the law or sin that caused me to be dead to God. We are born dead to God and because we are dead to God our fate is sealed apart from the law. From Adam to the present it has been by grace through faith that any man is saved. That has never changed. The law never saved anyone and never will. It only proves we cannot be the righteousness of God according to the flesh. To be righteous we must be as God is. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. If we wont to be as God is we must come the way God has provided and be made righteous by God Himself.

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 06:26 PM

E4e is a complete idiot and so your response to him is well deserved and appropriate. However, the law is not your standard in Christ. There is no standard in Christ because Christ Himself, in whom you are identified, is the standard. The law does not apply to God. You have been crucified in Christ and the law no longer has any hold on those who have been crucified (i.e. killed) by it. You could no more break the Ten Commandments than you, as an American sitting in New Jersey, could break Australian law. It's against the law in Australia to murder people and if you were to commit murder in New Jersey,( leaving aside New Jersey law for the sake of this argument) then the Australian authorities couldn't do a thing about it because you haven't broken their law. Their law only applies in their country. It is the same with you! If you are in Christ, you are beyond the jurisdiction of the law and are unable to break it.

So what about all those terrible things you do on a regular basis?

Romans 7:13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

I have to go get me something to eat! I'll be back later!

Resting in Him,
Clete

OK, Clete, I understand and agree with all of that, I guess I am just not making my point very well. I believe that we are not required to follow the 10 commandments...but we certainly should. Following the example of the righteousness of Jesus, we should use the law to rebuke unsaved people, because they will be judged by the law. We, I know, will not be judged by the law...but that doesn't mean we should sin every which way we can. I believe the law can lead people to Christ. I also believe that once we are saved, trying to follow the law will ruin us.

My only point using the Mosaic law as an example for Christians was that attempting to be like Christ sets us apart from non-believers. That's all. :sigh: It's hard to type when you're really upset :D

elected4ever

February 20th, 2008, 06:42 PM

OK, Clete, I understand and agree with all of that, I guess I am just not making my point very well. I believe that we are not required to follow the 10 commandments...but we certainly should. Following the example of the righteousness of Jesus, we should use the law to rebuke unsaved people, because they will be judged by the law. We, I know, will not be judged by the law...but that doesn't mean we should sin every which way we can. I believe the law can lead people to Christ. I also believe that once we are saved, trying to follow the law will ruin us.

My only point using the Mosaic law as an example for Christians was that attempting to be like Christ sets us apart from non-believers. That's all. :sigh: It's hard to type when you're really upset :DNo gentile was ever under the law but just as Israel they were still dead to God. It is by grace through faith that we receive life and that life is righteous. There is no possibility of sin. Our flesh remains dead to God but we are not of the flesh but of the spirit. Every time our flesh accuses us of sin or accuses another it lies against the truth. The dead are not subject to the law however in their deadness they are still unrighteous. The law has nothing to do with that. We must receive life if we are to live and that righteousness is in Christ Jesus. We become righteous as Jesus is righteous because we are as he is in this world.

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 06:49 PM

No gentile was ever under the law but just as Israel they were still dead to God. It is by grace through faith that we receive life and that life is righteous. There is no possibility of sin. Our flesh remains dead to God but we are not of the flesh but of the spirit. Every time our flesh accuses us of sin or accuses another it lies against the truth. The dead are not subject to the law however in their deadness they are still unrighteous. The law has nothing to do with that. We must receive life if we are to live and that righteousness is in Christ Jesus. We become righteous as Jesus is righteous because we are as he is in this world.

Are you saying that Christians never do anything wrong?

I think that non-Christians can be led to Christ through the law - they need to realize they are sinners to realize they need a Savior.

PS - Thanks for toning it down - the nastiness of your previous post really raised my blood pressure. :cool:

DXPose

February 20th, 2008, 07:08 PM

DXPose

February 20th, 2008, 07:21 PM

Like most of my brothers I am instructed out of the law because the law is indeed righteous. Because of the weakness of the flesh the righteousness of the law condemned me and then slew me. I was innocent of sin before the law but it is not the law or sin that caused me to be dead to God. We are born dead to God and because we are dead to God our fate is sealed apart from the law. From Adam to the present it has been by grace through faith that any man is saved. That has never changed. The law never saved anyone and never will. It only proves we cannot be the righteousness of God according to the flesh. To be righteous we must be as God is. Jesus is the way the truth and the life. If we wont to be as God is we must come the way God has provided and be made righteous by God Himself.

What does this have to do with Christians judging with righteous judgment? :confused:

Mystery

February 20th, 2008, 07:27 PM

Yes, I know that.

That doesn't mean that God just made it up arbitrarily.He made it because it was necessary for sinners. If you know that it did not exist before creation, then how can you say it is an expression of His character?

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 07:31 PM

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 07:41 PM

He made it because it was necessary for sinners. If you know that it did not exist before creation, then how can you say it is an expression of His character?

Because that's what it is. I didn't say it IS His character. His character is the basis of the law. That is to say that the law is what it is because God is who He is.

Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (Romans 7:12)

Isaiah 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for His righteousness’ sake; He will exalt the law and make it honorable.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 07:42 PM

Okay, let me ask you a question to see if we are on the same page here or not...

Should Christian's tithe?

Asked another way, Is a Christian who tithes better off for having done so?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Christians do not have to tithe, but giving out of your heart blesses you and the church. I think we are on the same page if you think that tithing is under the law(10%) and not "required" of Christians.

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 07:56 PM

Christians do not have to tithe, but giving out of your heart blesses you and the church. I think we are on the same page if you think that tithing is under the law(10%) and not "required" of Christians.

Christians who tithe are actually worse off than those who give nothing at all.

It still feels like you are attempting to use the law as a tutor, as a guide for life, to know right from wrong. If you are doing so I urge you to think this stuff through because you are doing yourself a great disservice. You do not need the law - at all! You have Christ! What do you need with the law? Does Christ need the law? Certainly not! You are perfect in Christ and cannot be otherwise. If you want to not do wrongly then keep your eye on Christ and on your position in Him and He will live His life through you BY FAITH! Just forget the law! pretend it doesn't exist. What would you do if the law was never written down? Knowing what you know about who God is and who you are in Him, what would you do if you had never heard of the Ten Commandments? If whatever the answer to that question is comes as a result of your love for God, then you've just discovered the secret to living the Christian life. You don't do the things you do for your husband (i.e. you don't love your husband) because there is some standard set of rules that tells you what to do, you just do what you do because you love your husband. It is the same with the Christian life. The Christian does what he does because he loves Christ, not because he has to or because there will be some lack of blessing if you don't. We have already been blessed with all Spiritual blessings in Him, there is nothing we can do to lose that which we did not deserve to be given in the first place.

Okay, I sort of started rambling there. Sorry about that. I don't mean to doubt you. I guess I'm sort of saying all this stuff as much for others who might be reading as I am for you. If you understand all this stuff already then praise God and may God richly bless you and yours! :thumb:

Resting in Him,
Clete

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 08:16 PM

Clete

February 20th, 2008, 09:19 PM

Hmmm... I guess my confusion lies in the fact that I still think the Bible has tons of valuable information as a guide to life. I love my husband, but I've learned from the Bible how to be a better wife. I am perfect in God's eyes, covered by Christ's blood, but I still need direction to know the difference between right and wrong. I am not a legalist, by any means. I truly believe in grace, but I believe we have to be careful not to "continue in sin".

I agree with you on tithing; I think giving money to the church is a good thing, though. It seems like you don't? I agree that submitting to one part of the law will condemn you to the rest, which is not what we as Christians are supposed to do.

I don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, though. I think that the Holy Spirit is our guide to living, but how do we judge right and wrong without the law?
First of all, to clarify, I do think it is perfectly good thing to do to support your church financially. I do NOT, however, think that it is a good thing to do it if you are doing so because there is some rule somewhere that says its a good thing to do. If you wouldn't do it if the rule didn't exist then you shouldn't do it at all.

And what is true of tithing is true of all good works. If you wouldn't do them if the rules didn't exist, then you shouldn't do them at all. They will profit you nothing - indeed, they will cost your more than you can imagine.

Consider your husband again. Let's pretend, for the sake of argument, that it was somehow okay for you to have an affair with another man. Would you do it?

I think I can safely answer that for you with a resounding...

No! Of course not!

The question is WHY?

The answer, of course, is that you wouldn't because you love your husband, right?

Would you need some rule book (i.e. the Ten Commandments) to know that it is hurtful for you to commit adultery against your husband?

You might think so but you don't. You don't need the law, you need God!

That's the choice mankind has always had presented to them;

The law (i.e. the rules) vs. God

The first manifestation of the law was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. In fact, that's what the law is, the knowledge of good and evil, the "knowledge of sin", as Paul puts it. And when Christ nailed the Law to the Tree (the Cross) He undid the curse of the law and restored those who would be identified in His death to life with God. We then have the same choice that Adam had. We can partake of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (i.e. the law) or we can cling to God. You cannot do both! For the law is of the flesh which is dead to God and cannot have any part with God. The law kills but the Spirit (capital S) gives life.

You ask, "...how do we judge right and wrong without the law?". The answer is, "By the Spirit of the living God, who makes His home inside our hearts."

Sound cryptic I know but it isn't really. It's as simple as knowing who you are in Christ and simply resting on those Scriptural facts. It isn't about trying hard, it isn't about a list of rules, it isn't about doing, its about believing (Romans 4:5). You have died in Christ, it is no longer you who live but Christ who lives through you and in you. Keep you eyes focused on your position in Christ and the rest will come as a result of that faith. God will begin conforming you to the image of Him in whom you rest.

It sounds like magic but it isn't magic, its a miracle.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 09:24 PM

OK, Clete, you get :up: :up: from me! I agree with everything you've posted, and I really appreciate your help in formulating my argument so it's easier to understand. Thanks for being patient while I tried to spit the right words out!

E4E - I still think you were way out of line.

elected4ever

February 20th, 2008, 10:09 PM

[/QUOTE]Excuse me? Did you even read what I posted? [/QUOTE]Yes. Everything you said after the first sentence is meaningless.

**I want to be clear** I am not saying I believe in works-based salvation. Once we are saved, we are covered by grace - but Jesus never repealed the Mosaic law. In fact, he affirmed it in Matthew 5:17-19.If you believe your first sentence then you do believe in a works basted salvation regardless of the trappings you put around it to make it appear that you do not. Your first sentence establishes the context.

Are you saying that you think it's ok to steal? lie? murder? Christians have to obey God. Period. If we don't there is grace and forgiveness. But as Paul said, "Should I continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid." How could Paul sin after he had been made righteous. It was imposable for Paul to continue to sin. Paul was saying it was imposable to continue in sin that grace may abound. What fellowship has righteousness with unrighteousness. We are made righteous by the father Himself. How could we continue in sin. It is an utter impossibility.

What is "sin" if there is no Biblical standard for obedience? Your foolish answer still did not address the issue of judging non-Christians, which is what this thread is about.Sin is the contradiction of God in His Person,word and plan. Man has chosen to contradict God in all three areas. For this man was separated from God by God Himself. Death means separation. Death is the judgment of God on man. Man is separated from God and as a mortal man is dead and not subject to the law God. The law only proves that man is dead and makes the sin of man more apparent. As I said Jesus did not condemn the world because the world already stood in condemnation. Jesus came to give life from the dead.

You have no right to incorrectly read my post and proclaim that I am "dead to God" because I use the Mosaic law as a Biblical standard.I did not misread your first sentence. Maybe you should reconsider your statement. The law is not the standard. God is.

elected4ever

February 20th, 2008, 10:17 PM

What does this have to do with Christians judging with righteous judgment? :confused:Our business is not preaching the law but the hope of eternal life. Salvation is life from the dead. Not the condemnation of the law.

Prolifeguyswife

February 20th, 2008, 10:44 PM

I did not misread your first sentence. Maybe you should reconsider your statement. The law is not the standard. God is.[/QUOTE]

Please note that I did not say the Mosaic law was "the" standard. It is "a" standard. A Biblical standard, as I said before. As I've also said before, we can use the law as a teacher to bring the unsaved to Christ. We are not obligated to follow the law if we are covered by the grace of Jesus Christ. *I'm pretty sure I've said this all before.*

PastorKevin

February 21st, 2008, 03:20 AM

Are you saying that Christians never do anything wrong?

That is exactly what he is saying. E4E has proudly boasted many times that he NEVER sins anymore.

red77

February 21st, 2008, 06:08 AM

What a brilliant rebuttal!

:rolleyes:

:liberals:

It wasn't a rebuttal! I was suggesting that you read the last couple of pages because I'd presumed you hadn't read Poly's post which I was responding to, she made it clear that her "throwing the book" at Hilary would be done when it would be too late for her!

Mystery

February 21st, 2008, 07:13 AM

Prolifeguyswife...

What did Paul say the Law produced in him?

Prolifeguyswife

February 21st, 2008, 12:12 PM

Prolifeguyswife...

What did Paul say the Law produced in him?

Death. Which is why I don't believe Christians are under the law, but under grace. However, I do believe the law can be used as a tool to lead people to Christ.

elected4ever

February 21st, 2008, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by Prolifeguyswife
"That is ludicrous! We are absolutely to follow the Mosaic Law."

Did you or did you not make that statement? Do you now wish to retract it?

Mystery

February 21st, 2008, 12:20 PM

However, I do believe the law can be used as a tool to lead people t