To Rapture or Not to Rapture is that the question?

[Living4Him]

I have heard so many different points of views concerning the "rapture" of the church. I have no clue as to which one I totally agree with. I see each view has scripture to support it. Of course I have not devoted alot of time studying it for myself but I would like to hear what everyone thinks. Please include scripture to back up your view. Thanks!

[Lovejoy]

I don't even know enough to respond to the poll. Let's hope someone will illuminate us! (What are the odds?)

[Lovejoy]

By the way, which ever one it is, I plan to be on it! Okay, I am done trivializing this. Is there anyone with a decent answer, because I would like to know as well?

[Living4Him]

Originally posted by Lovejoy
I don't even know enough to respond to the poll. Let's hope someone will illuminate us! (What are the odds?)

:think: Guess we will have to wait and see.

[Lucky]

Pre-Tribulation Rapture :thumb:

[geralduk]

The MAIN thing to consider and which all else flows from in this matter.
is the NATURE and the CHARACTER of the BRIDE of Christ.

It is the because of the loose reading of scripture that says because if we are HIS then we are of His BODY which is His BRIDE.

Then clearly ALL must be in the BRIDE.

But in truth to be part of that body which makes up the VERY BRIDE of Christ is a CHALLENGE to todays christianity and a "HIGH CALLING" to all.

EVERY true BORNagain child of God is CALLED to be PART of that BRIDE.

THE QUESTION IS HOW MANY WILL ANSWER?

"Will I find faith..."?


The RAPTURE or to give its more accurate name is the TRANSLATION of the BRIDE.
Where she rises to" meet the Lord in the AIR"

The arguments rage around WHEN this takes place.
I add another equation as to WHO GOES.
and the answer to the SECOND gives a reasonable and logical answer to the first.

I have to say again though to STOP accusations of dividing the body.
ALL are called who are truly His.
But soem have made the fact of being BORNagain as QUALIFYING US to be IN the BRIDE.
When in truth it just qualifies us to START IN THE RACE!
AND TO WIN THE PRIZE!

You cannot win the prize without qualyfying for the race.
and so NO unsaved person has ANY right in the matter at all.
But as Paul pointed out if we do not run lawfully then we are DISQUALIFIED!

This is NOT talking about the works of the LAW.
But more the "LAW OF CHRIST"
and while we do not have to obey the \LAW of sin and death to be RIGHTOUS.
We DO have to obey the LAW of CHRIST to BRING FORTH THAT RIGHTOUSNESS which was planted in us.


But soem have made out that all we need to be is BORNagain to be part of the BRIDE and base thier assumptions on the one or two verses which justyfy them.

yet did not God speak "IN SUNDRY TIMES and IN DIVERS WAYS by the PROPHETS"?
cONCERNING CHRIST?
But did He not alos speak by His Son ?
So whAt was spoken in PART by the PROPHETS was spoken by His Son.
It is then not unreasonable nor contrary to scriupture to look for the truth concerning the nature and character of the BRIDE in sundry times and in divers ways even as it was for THE BRIDEGROOM

[LightSon]

geralduk,
Are you arguing in favor of a "partial rapture" position, where only a certain class of Christian will be raptured?

Originally posted by geralduk
The MAIN thing to consider and which all else flows from in this matter.
is the NATURE and the CHARACTER of the BRIDE of Christ.

It is the because of the loose reading of scripture that says because if we are HIS then we are of His BODY which is His BRIDE.

Then clearly ALL must be in the BRIDE.

But in truth to be part of that body which makes up the VERY BRIDE of Christ is a CHALLENGE to todays christianity and a "HIGH CALLING" to all.

EVERY true BORNagain child of God is CALLED to be PART of that BRIDE.

THE QUESTION IS HOW MANY WILL ANSWER?

"Will I find faith..."?


The RAPTURE or to give its more accurate name is the TRANSLATION of the BRIDE.
Where she rises to" meet the Lord in the AIR"

The arguments rage around WHEN this takes place.
I add another equation as to WHO GOES.
and the answer to the SECOND gives a reasonable and logical answer to the first.

I have to say again though to STOP accusations of dividing the body.
ALL are called who are truly His.
But soem have made the fact of being BORNagain as QUALIFYING US to be IN the BRIDE.
When in truth it just qualifies us to START IN THE RACE!
AND TO WIN THE PRIZE!

You cannot win the prize without qualyfying for the race.
and so NO unsaved person has ANY right in the matter at all.
But as Paul pointed out if we do not run lawfully then we are DISQUALIFIED!

This is NOT talking about the works of the LAW.
But more the "LAW OF CHRIST"
and while we do not have to obey the \LAW of sin and death to be RIGHTOUS.
We DO have to obey the LAW of CHRIST to BRING FORTH THAT RIGHTOUSNESS which was planted in us.


But soem have made out that all we need to be is BORNagain to be part of the BRIDE and base thier assumptions on the one or two verses which justyfy them.

yet did not God speak "IN SUNDRY TIMES and IN DIVERS WAYS by the PROPHETS"?
cONCERNING CHRIST?
But did He not alos speak by His Son ?
So whAt was spoken in PART by the PROPHETS was spoken by His Son.
It is then not unreasonable nor contrary to scriupture to look for the truth concerning the nature and character of the BRIDE in sundry times and in divers ways even as it was for THE BRIDEGROOM

[Living4Him]

Originally posted by geralduk
When in truth it just qualifies us to START IN THE RACE!
AND TO WIN THE PRIZE!

You cannot win the prize without qualyfying for the race.
and so NO unsaved person has ANY right in the matter at all.
But as Paul pointed out if we do not run lawfully then we are DISQUALIFIED!

It is then not unreasonable nor contrary to scriupture to look for the truth concerning the nature and character of the BRIDE in sundry times and in divers ways even as it was for THE BRIDEGROOM


Thank you Mr. Gerald,

Even though I see my labor ahead of me to study this out for myself. I really appreciate you pointing out what I am to look for.
I ask that you would pray for me as I seek this out as I will also pray for understanding and wisdom. Thanks again.

Blessing to you

[kingpin]

Because "God is not the author of confusion" (I Corinthians 14:33) and the fact that the rapture THEORY is filled with confusion. I don't accept the rapture theory as biblical doctrine.

It's my view the rapture theory is a man made tradition. Study it yourself and post your findings.

Kingpin

[Anapto]

It's my view the rapture theory is a man made tradition. Study it yourself and post your findings.

Nahum 1 {KJV}

7
The LORD is good, a strong hold in the day of trouble;

and he knoweth them that trust in Him.

8
But

with an overrunning flood He will make an utter end of the place thereof, and darkness shall pursue his enemies.

9
What do ye imagine against the LORD?

He will make an utter end:

affliction shall not rise up the second time.

10
For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.
11
There is one come out of thee, that imagineth evil against the LORD, a wicked counsellor.
12
Thus saith the LORD; Though they be quiet, and likewise many, yet thus shall they be cut down, when he shall pass through. Though I have afflicted thee, I will afflict thee no more.
13
For now will I break his yoke from off thee, and will burst thy bonds in sunder.
14
And the LORD hath given a commandment concerning thee, that no more of thy name be sown: out of the house of thy gods will I cut off the graven image and the molten image: I will make thy grave; for thou art vile.
15
Behold upon the mountains the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace!

O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off.

The Lord will not rise up a second time because He takes care of it all the first time He returns. There is only one return!!!


Ezk. 13 {KJV}
18
And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD;

Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
19
And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
20
Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
21
Your kerchiefs also will I tear, and deliver my people out of your hand, and they shall be no more in your hand to be hunted; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
22
Because with lies ye have made the heart of the righteous sad, whom I have not made sad; and strengthened the hands of the wicked, that he should not return from his wicked way, by promising him life:
23
Therefore ye shall see no more vanity, nor divine divinations: for I will deliver my people out of your hand: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

Fly Hebrew parach. a prime root: to break forth as a bud i.e. bloom; generally to spread; specifically to fly ( as extending the wings ) fig. to flourish, spring up, ....

They sew coverings over Gods outreached saving arms and hands and teach His children lies of flying away to save their soul. God is against this teaching!


Acts 1 {KJV}

6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of Him, saying, Lord, wilt Thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

( Had Israel repented as a nation, the Kingdom would have come. Notice they were not expecting a ‘rapture,’ but that the King and His dominion be restored. They were asking if the restoration was going to happen here and now. Listen to the answer of Christ and the two angels closely. )

7
And He said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in His own power.

( It wasn’t time yet. Notice that Christ used the term to know the times or seasons. None of us know the exact day or hour when the Lord will return. But He was kind enough to leave us a letter telling us what the signs will be that consummate the end of this age. )

8
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto Me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

( Taking that witness around the world continuously. )

9
And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.

( They saw Him leave. Take notice of what manner in which they saw Him leave.... )

10
And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

( These two in white apparel are angels of God. They’re about to tell us the same thing that is written in Zechariah 14. Listen to them. They are God’s messengers. )

11
Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

( The same way you see Him go is the exact same way you will see Him return. In like manner. So Where were they? Jesus comes back to us. The only thing that the bible mentions concerning us at our Lords coming is that we are gathered to Him. You see Him ascend from the Mount of Olives, so in like manner you will see Him descend to the Mount of Olives. )

12
Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the Mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

( They are a mile east of Jerusalem across the Kedron valley on the Mount of Olives. As you see Him go, in the same manner you will see Him come. Only one event mentioned of His coming because He only returns once. The messengers did not mention some secret ‘rapture’ occurring first. But one event clearly stated. Christ returns one time and one time only. )

Zechariah 14

1
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

( It’s not here yet. This is just before the return. )

2
For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

( Notice who is in control of the enemy. This should remind you of Rev. 17:17. - For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill His will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

3
Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

( This will be the battle of Armageddon and Hamon-Gog. Armageddon is the gathering place of the crowed. There is also a gathering in the valley of Hamon-Gog which is translated The valley of the multitude. When the cup spills over, God, not man, is going to wipe them out in one day. )

4
And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

( The same thing the two messengers of God told the disciples. Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. We are reading of that one and only coming. )

5
And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Don't overlook that last part where the Lord comes and all His saints with Him. Same event as Matt.25 31-32., 1 Thess.4:15-17, 1 Cor.15.51-52, Jude 14. Same thing! One event!

6
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7
But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8
And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9
And the LORD shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

Remember Matt.25:31? The gathering is on earth. When we get to verse twelve, you will see that there is no more flesh at this time. All that were alive and remain will change. The good and the bad.

10
All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

( Talking about the land. Jerusalem. Christ is going to remove everything that offends and the land will be cleansed. )

11.
And men shall dwell in it, and their shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

( This certainly hasn't come to pass yet! )

12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

All the flesh shall consume away. Keep in mind what day this is. It’s when the Lord returns. The beginning of the one thousand year reign with Christ.

The word consume in the Hebrew is [maqaq] It’s Strongs # 4743. a prime root; to melt; figurative to flow, dwindle, vanish. consume away, dissolve, pine away, be corrupt.


Matthew 25

31
When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him,

then

shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32
And before him shall be gathered all nations:

and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Same event.

1 Thess 4.

15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,

that

we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not precede them which are asleep.

16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Same event!


1 Corinthians 15

50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:

for the trumpet shall sound,

and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Same event!


Zechariah 14:12 ( one more time )

12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Same event!

Remember, those who are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord dont precede them that have already died. Why? because they are already with him.

Here they are....

Revelation 6.

11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

What does that tell you? That their fellow Christian brethren are still here!!!

12
And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;

and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth,

even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

Remember this is the sixth seal. Keep in mind the star falling and the sun and the moon.

Here it is again....

Rev.8
10
And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;
11
And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
12
And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise.

Revelation 12

10
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven,

Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God,

and the power of his Christ:

for the accuser of our brethren is cast down,

which

accused them before our God day and night.

Who is our accuser? Satan is!

So who is the 'them'? Christians!!!


11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Who's it talking about? Christians!!!!


12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea!

for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

What, pray tell, will the devil, Satan, who is cast to the earth be doing????

13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15
And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

( Notice it comes out of his mouth. They're lies. Remember Nahum at the beginning of this post? Read it again... )

16
And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman,

and

went to make war with the remnant of her seed,

which

keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

:noway:

Who is it that have the testimony of Christ???

Christians do!!!

But the rapturist say the church will be gone!!! But God's word says they will still be here to stand against Satan!

The 'rapture' is a lie! It's False doctrine!


This is what God's word says will happen first....


2 Thess. 2.

1
Now we beseech you, brethren,

by

the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him,

2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,

as that the day of Christ is at hand.

( One event! )

3
Let no man deceive you by any means:

for that day shall not come,

except

there come a falling away first, ( The Apostasy )

and that man of sin be revealed,

the son of perdition;

( The son of perdition is identified in verses 8 & 9 of this chapter as Satan. So what will he be doing when he's cast to the earth to go after those who keep the tetimony of Christ? ... )

4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped;

so that he as God

sitteth in the temple of God,

shewing himself that he is God.

He's comming to play Messiah. He doesn't want to hurt you, he wants to convert you by his lying mouth and deception.

This hasn't come to pass yet but it will before the return of Christ and our gathering to Him to the Mt. of Olives.

This is the tribulation to come!!!

Thats why Christ warned us of this....

Matthew 24:

23
Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ,

or lo, He is there;

believe it not!

Look what comes FIRST.

29
Immediately AFTER

the tribulation of those days

shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Same thing we read in Revelation. What happens next?....


30
And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven:

and THEN shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,

and

they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31
And

he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet,

and

they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Same event again!

Jude

14
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying,

Behold,

the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

15
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Same event!

This is so easy to follow.

The Lord returns one time and one time only.

:)

Anapto /aka stan.


This study and questions are continued here...

http://www.ChristianWebSite.com/talk/showthread.php?threadid=6024


May God bless your studies.

[elected4ever]

I believe that the 70 weeks of Daniel have been fulfilled and there is no special 7 years of anything left. The only thing left is the revealing of the person of the Anti Christ and the resurrection at the coming of the Lord. Just because you may dwell in relative safety to day does not mean you will tomorrow. Those who teach the Pre trip rapture dwell in fear of persecution of there mortal bodies. Don't worry though God will give faith sufficient for the day at hand.

[LightSon]

Originally posted by elected4ever
Those who teach the Pre trip rapture dwell in fear of persecution of there mortal bodies.
That is what you say, but you are wrong. Please allow me to demonstrate:

I hold to a pre-trib rapture AND I do NOT dwell in fear of persecution of [my] mortal body. Therefore you are mistaken.

You can avoid such blunders in the future by avoiding telling me what I believe or fear.

Have a nice day.

[kingpin]

Anapto
I agree the Rapture theory is a lie.

[LightSon]

Originally posted by kingpin
Anapto
I agree the Rapture theory is a lie.
You are entitled to your opinion kingpin. I suppose when consensus becomes the basis for discerning truth, your statement might have more significance.

In the meantime, do you have anything of substance to add?

I hold a pre-trib Rapture position. I do not hold to it dogmatically, as I would the gospel of Christ or the deity of Christ. What I would like to know is why any nuance to the Rapture or Second Coming is a big deal. If you disagree with the Rapture, and want to dismiss it as "theory", then do so. I can't see how invoking the word "lie" is helpful. It tends to impugn the motives of those who hold the position. Is that your intent? Or is it your position that every false position is Satanic in origin?

[Nineveh]

1 Thessalonians 4:13 - 1 Thessalonians 5:11

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all sons of the light and sons of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be alert and self-controlled. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be self-controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

The Church is the Body, not the Bride. Israel is the Bride. The Tribulation is not for the Body.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by LightSon
geralduk,
Are you arguing in favor of a "partial rapture" position, where only a certain class of Christian will be raptured?

There is only ONE rapture.
Not a 'partial' one.

The resurection is NOT the rapture.

The rapture is when THE GROOM comes FOR His BRIDE.

tHE QUESTION IS "will He find any FAITH"?

'a CERTAIN CLASS OF CHRISTIAN'?

Should there not be only ONE type of Christian?

Though we may all be at different levels of understanding and maturity.
For instance as John shows:

"little children"
"young men" and so on.


Yet we are ALL to have the "mind of Christ"
and we are ALL called to that "HIGH CALLING"
To "win the prize"
To"aprehend that for which we were aprehended for"


As I said before EVERY true BORNagain child of God is CALLED and APREHENDED FOR the BRIDE.

Yet out of all those who were SAVED from Egypt how many actualy ENTERED INTO THE PROMISE and APREHENDED THAT FOR WHICH THEY WERE APREHENDED FOR!?

Paul said they "entered not in because of unbelief"
Yet when you read the relevant passages it was not thay they believed NOTHING!
But that they belived the WRONG MESSAGE!


Were the TWO spies who had the right message any different from them?
Were they NOT ALL saved from egypt and were in as MUCH BONDAGE as thier brtheren and in as MUCH NEED for slavation as they?
What then made the difference?

Did not all 12 SEE THE SAME THINGS? GIANTS!?

But were as the 10 saw ONLY giants andf FORGOT all that had heppened in the last 40 DAYS(days! mind you)
The two saw them in the light of what GOD had done.
WHO it was who was WITH them.
and what He had promised for the future.
and in the LIGHT OF THAT.
The GIANTS were as GRASSHOPPERS!

As I have said before that without streching the scriptures beyond a reasonable limit.
The people who entered into the promise were not the same people who came out of EGYPT!

I would argue that those who will make up the BRIDE will NOT be the same people as it were when they got SAVED.
AND ALBEIT we are new creatures in Christ Jesus.
NVERTHE LESS we are but BORNagain.
and therefore BABES in Christ.
Not able to do much then.
let alone be" a help meet for Him"
It as we GROW in grace and in the knowldge of God that we become "young men" and in in our "understanding become MEN"

It is not then without conicedence that BEFORE they crossed over jordan they did NO work of God.
Yet after it began to do that for which they were saved FOR.

Then if you look at the LIFE of CHRIST.
He did NO work before He crossed over jordan.
and began to do those things preordained from before the foundations of the world.

Therefore not only must the BRIDE be SAVED.
But also be BAPTISED in WATER and in the SPIRIT.

For if we are not, we are not walking perfectly AS WE SHOULD.
Nor obeying the LAW OF CHRIST.
Which is IN us.

"For as the FATHER sent Me so send I you"

Should not then the BRIDE walk in the light as He is in the light?

We do not get baptised to be saved.
But to fullfill rightousness.
Not of the LAW but of CHRIST.
and show by doing so that commitment to HIM that we belong to another and not to the world being DEAD to it.
So did HE for us so should we for HIM.


Im not then seeking to defend a 'postion' but to speak the truth.
and to show that the message that says to be BORNagain makes us AUTOMATICLY a part of that BRIDE of Christ is but aLOOSE reading of scripture.

ALL are CALLED but it is to the WHOSOEVER will ANSWER tht call and STICKS WITH IT will be READY when He comes.

Im saying that the BRIDE of Christ CANNOT be anyhting LESS than the like unto the church at its BIRTH.
With the SAME power.FAITH AND COMMITMENT.
AND GOOD WORKS of the spirit.

That "THIS IS THAT" CAN BE SAID with NO fear OF ANY REASONABLE objection.


Im sayting that we have made being BORNagain the END when it is only the beginning.
and that NO BABY get married ONLY adults!

That those "who are YET carnal" cannot be either ready nor fit to be part of the bride.
Seeign that to be carnaly minded is to be at emnity with God!

That where as ABRAHAM walked perfectly before the LORD LOT walked according to what his EYES told him was the way to go.
Yet lot was counted RIGHTOUS.

Yet was not Ready .

That ENOCK walked with God and was not and therefore walked perfectly beforeGod.

While Noah though counted rightous yet by what happened later was not perfect.


Enoch was TRANSLATED BEFORE judgement was poured out upon the earth.
Noah though saved went through it.

Abraham was as RICH in God as he was in the beginning with LOT.
LOt lost all save the saving of his own soul.

Is it not written of some who though saved "will suffer loss as through fire"?

The 10 virgins is a message for US ALL who make up the church.

For they ALL were virgins.
All had LIT lamps.
ALL were waiting for the GROOM.
ALL fell asleep.
ALL heard the cry.
ALL trimmed thier lamps.
5 HAD NOT ENOUGH oil.
SEEING THAT THEY THEY THOUGHT that haveing but thier LAMPS LIT was ENOUGH.
While the 5 wise had not only thier laMPS lit in the beginning but also "their VESSELS FULL as well"!

The foolishness was in thier EXPECTATION that what they had was ENOUGH.
wAS NOT ELIJA? given food by an angel of God for his journey and having taken soem of it went to sleep.
But the angel waking himn said eat IT ALL (that he had given him) for the journey is long and if u do noty you will faint by the way.

Think on this....

If JESUS "in whom was LIFE" MUST NEEDS BE filled WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT ,
How much ther MORE DO WE!

Some say that when are BORNagain w eare baties into the ONE SPIRIT.
TRUE.
Now we have LIFE.
bUT WHO EVER HEARD OF A baby HAVING BEING BORN and therefore having LIFE not also needing to be FILLED with the BREATH OF LIFE so that he might LIVE......>>>>>>>>>>>.

Yet iill say again.
yet we have LIFE if His.
But did not CHRIST before ?
even more so?
If then He NEEDED TO BE baptised IN THE holy ghost before He did any work then I would argue so do we.

Hence "be ye FILLED(PRESENT CONTINOUS VERB) with the HOLY GHOST"


The 5 wise not only were BORNagain thier LAMPS LIT but also were filled with the HOLY SPIRIT thier vessels filled.

Coming back then to which message we are listening to?

It is not for me to dictate to any which way they should go.
Yet is it not encumbant on me to say it like it is?

For God veiws BELIEVEING the wrong message as the same as UNBELIEF!

tHINK ON IT.

THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.

THAT is no COMMON THING.

IT IS A HIGH THING.


Getting out of EGYPT was not the end it was the beginning.
Going through the wilderness was not the end it was only the PREPERATION.THE PROVING AND THE TESTING.
The PROMISED LAND is NOT heaven.
Seeign that there are NO GIANTS there nor cities to conquer.

They were given for our ensamples and for our admonision.
That we might learn from their mistakes.
and enter into that which God has purposed from the beginning.

But if we do not what then excuse have we?

But they are there so that we MIGHT be ready and to understand in types shadows and divers ways ther nature ,the character and the disposition of the BRide.

In this world the wedding dress conforms to the BRIDE!
But in the next the dress has already been made as it were and we are to conform to it!

and to borrow phrase then.

if the caps fits......... then it is to them it was made! and if it does not we need to lose a few punds or ..........?


So my 'argument' is not when or anything about the rapture as such.
For all the arguments and confusion in my veiw stems from a MISUNDERSTAND first of the BRIDE.

once you get THAT right the rest falls into place.

[LightSon]

geralduk,
If I asked you some direct questions, would you answer them? Reading your words is like looking through a glass darkly.

Is the BRIDE the same as the church? Or is The BRIDE only part of the church, the part which has grown-up into Him?

If I understand you correctly, only the BRIDE is raptured(translated Enoch-style), while the Noaic remnant will go through the "flood" of tribulation.

Help me out here. Am I getting anywhere near the target?

[Nineveh]

The Bride of Christ is Israel, not the Body (Church). The time of Jacob's troubles/Tribulation is not appointed to us (The Body).

[geralduk]

Originally posted by LightSon
geralduk,
If I asked you some direct questions, would you answer them? Reading your words is like looking through a glass darkly.

Is the BRIDE the same as the church? Or is The BRIDE only part of the church, the part which has grown-up into Him?

If I understand you correctly, only the BRIDE is raptured(translated Enoch-style), while the Noaic remnant will go through the "flood" of tribulation.

Help me out here. Am I getting anywhere near the target?

Ill have to answer this way as to the BRIDE and the church.

The FIRST Adam had a BODY.
and was put in a deep sleep and from the MIDST of his BODY a PART was taken and from which came HIS BRIDE the "help meet for him"
and then LATER the TWO became ONE body.

The LAST Adam also has a BODY.
and there too as it were went into a deep sleep(death)
and from the MIDST of His BODY a PART will make up the BRIDE a "help meet for Him" and LATER the TWO will become ONE.

While it can be said that the church is HIS BRIDE.
Even as it is written.

Yet there will be a BODY taken from the MIDST of the BODY which will make up THE bride.


The RAPTURE is Christ coming FOR His bride. To those "who LOOK for Him shall He apear"
Then He will come LATER when "ALL eyes shall see Him" WITH His BRIDE.

This too is shown in scripture.

A BODY TAKEN FROM THE MIDST OF A BODY.

The clearest being the 12 tribes.
Out of THEM was chosen ONE tribe.
All the 11 tribes had an inheritence.
The ONE tribe had GOD for an inheritence.

The 12 apostles .
Nevertheless from the 12 you had PETER JAMES AND JOHN who saw,did and partook of more than the other 9

Abraham seekign a BRIDE for the SON said to His servant to go AMONG HIS BRETHEREN only.

There is more.

As to the last question yes.
Though not a remnant I believe.

But like the BRIDE is the FIRST fruits OF THE HARVEST.
Those saved AFTER will be the MAIN harvest.
and those saved after the 1000 year reign of Christ will be the GLEANINGS.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Nineveh
The Bride of Christ is Israel, not the Body (Church). The time of Jacob's troubles/Tribulation is not appointed to us (The Body).

What then of that scripture which says that "he will make war on His saints and overcome them"?


While id agree that God's will is that ALL should be raptured.

yes was it not Gods will that they should enter the promised land those who he brought out of EGYPT?

Paul says then we are not to be like them.

[Living4Him]

Originally posted by geralduk
Ill have to answer this way as to the BRIDE and the church.

The FIRST Adam had a BODY.
and was put in a deep sleep and from the MIDST of his BODY a PART was taken and from which came HIS BRIDE the "help meet for him"
and then LATER the TWO became ONE body.

The LAST Adam also has a BODY.
and there too as it were went into a deep sleep(death)
and from the MIDST of His BODY a PART will make up the BRIDE a "help meet for Him" and LATER the TWO will become ONE.

While it can be said that the church is HIS BRIDE.
Even as it is written.

Yet there will be a BODY taken from the MIDST of the BODY which will make up THE bride.


The RAPTURE is Christ coming FOR His bride. To those "who LOOK for Him shall He apear"
Then He will come LATER when "ALL eyes shall see Him" WITH His BRIDE.

This too is shown in scripture.

A BODY TAKEN FROM THE MIDST OF A BODY.

The clearest being the 12 tribes.
Out of THEM was chosen ONE tribe.
All the 11 tribes had an inheritence.
The ONE tribe had GOD for an inheritence.

The 12 apostles .
Nevertheless from the 12 you had PETER JAMES AND JOHN who saw,did and partook of more than the other 9

Abraham seekign a BRIDE for the SON said to His servant to go AMONG HIS BRETHEREN only.

There is more.

As to the last question yes.
Though not a remnant I believe.

But like the BRIDE is the FIRST fruits OF THE HARVEST.
Those saved AFTER will be the MAIN harvest.
and those saved after the 1000 year reign of Christ will be the GLEANINGS.

O I thank My Lord for using you to share this with us. I am really blessed and this knowledge you have shared has become my prayer.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by geralduk
What then of that scripture which says that "he will make war on His saints and overcome them"?


While id agree that God's will is that ALL should be raptured.

yes was it not Gods will that they should enter the promised land those who he brought out of EGYPT?

Paul says then we are not to be like them.

Unfortunatly I am not completely sure what you are talking about, gerald, but I would like to, would you care to start a thread?

[Granite]

No rapture.

Anyone have a copy of Whisenant's "88 Reasons"? Collector's item!

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Nineveh
Unfortunatly I am not completely sure what you are talking about, gerald, but I would like to, would you care to start a thread?

Ill endeavour to do so.

But in answer and for clarification.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Nineveh
The Bride of Christ is Israel, not the Body (Church). The time of Jacob's troubles/Tribulation is not appointed to us (The Body).

This is what I was answering to.

For by it you seem to sugest that either (a) there was no rapture nor then of the BRIDE .

I perhaps better first claryfy my aproach to the scriptures.
First I hold to them ALL from Genesis to Revalation.
and while i do not understand it all by any reckoning.
Yet I have come to the firm conclusion that to get a true and firm understandign of any scripture or doctrin I need ALL the scriptures.

and if an 'argument' is put forward as for instance you have put here in your reply to mine.
Then I have problems with it.
and no doubt you have your 'reasons' for holding to what you do.
But The imidiate scripture that came to mind on reading it was the one I gave.
as to war being made upon the saints and they being overcome.
This is in the period of the great tribulation.
Found in revalation.
there is much i do not understand of that book.
Yet are we then to not seek it?

You say the BRIDE of Christ is ISREAL?

Yet if you was to look at JOSEPH's life who is the archytype of Christ having so much of his life forshadowing Christs.
The rejection by his bretheren.
The love of His father.
Sold for silver.
Put in a pit (death)
King over the gentiles.
save the pharoah.

if you read the passage where on the SECOND time WHEN HE MEETS HIS BRETHEREN and REVEALS HIMSELF as the one who they thought was lost.
(listen) he was ALREADY MARRIED to a GENTILE BRIDE!


If you look at MOSES he too was MARRIED to a GENTILE.

and while time and space do not allow more yet there is every evidence to sugest or POINT TO the fact that in the MAIN the BRIDE of Christ will be made up of GENTILES.

For the BULK if you will of the JEWS will not be saved untill near the end.
and when they finally turn to God for thier salvation; for then the WORLD will be against them ,they have made a "covenant with death"(rome)and the antichrist.and are betrayed.
And there will be NO OTHER HELP but God.
and even as they cried unto God out of thier distress in EGYPT so will they do so again AND CRY UNTO GOD.

Then will HE COME and they will see "HIM whom they had peirced"


But to get back to my point.
I fear no counter argument.
Nor do I seek a vain debate or futile heated argument.
Nor do I raise up obejections such as I do TO GENERATE THEM.
But as a legitamate response to a posts that seems to go counter to my understanding at the present time.
Not that i think I know everything.
but a man must or should be "fully persuaded of the truth"
and as such any reasonable objections that arise as which came here, are there not for argument BUT TO GET MORE LIGHT!
and to 'satisfy' my own mind.

Now as to 'jacobs troubles' I am not sure of.
Though soemtimes I think I can see a ligth gleaming on the horizon.
as to its place in scripture that too Im still 'chewing on'
But I hold too that the scriptures are indivisible and have thier own integrity and reasoning.
that does not always folow mine and soemtimes cuts RIGHT ACROSS THE GRAIN of mine.
Yet even if it does I must then hold to the scriptures rather than to my own understanding.trusting God to satisfy my reason.
YET notwithstanding that.
all truth of scripture dovetails with all other truth.
and if havign come to a knowledge of the truth of one part.
It must (and I have always found it so )harmonise and dovetail with that I already 'know'(not JUST interlectualy you understand? but a lively knowledge)
So I do not cast off what i already know but BUILD ON IT.
For truth is layed" line upon line precept upon precept"
For God LEADS us into all truth.
and like maths were we cannot understand algebra or any other maths untill we have learnt the BASICS.
So too in spiritual things.

paul spoke of some who having been taught the basics still neede to be taught them when they should have been teachers(of the basics)
But were expected" to GO ONTO PERFECTION."
John indicating also the same.
where we grow from "little children"
To "young men" and so on.

What has this to do with matter in hand?

A great deal .

For children do not get MARIED.
ADULTS do.

and where as in doing evil we are to be "children"
"In UNDERSTANDING" we are to "be MEN."

So this is but the preperation so that we might not waste time but understand one another in some measure at least?
and where we can BOTH profit.
TO THE GLORY OF GOD.


So my 'objection' or answer to yours was that it speaks of "TRIBULATION"and "GREAT tribulation"

and even as the children of ISREAL have had and do have tribulations.

Yet for similar reasons so does every Christian who "lives Godly in Christ Jesus"

For WHY do they and have had so much.
Oh in part because of their rejection of the kingdom.
But there is another reason also.
They are WITNESSES to the LAW and the PROPHETS of GOD unto the world.
and the world hates them for it.
Not that they SPEAK against the world.
But are a silent rebuke to it.

Christians on the other hand are also WITNESSES to the GRACE AND TRUTH of God but they are (or should be) VOCAL witnesses; THAT ALL MEN "MAY COME TO A KNOWKLeDGE OF TEH TRUTH"
and even as SALVATION is of the JEWS first THEN the gentiles.

So too is thier tribulations!


Therefore "in the world you WILL HAVE TRIBULATION"

But then the LORD SPOKE of a GREAT tribulation far and above THE 'norm'
"where if God did not shorten the day "NO MAN WOULD BE SAVED"!


So if "those who live godly in Christ Jesus WILL suffer persecution"

How then wil we not suffer "for His sake"?

I would even argue that where the GROOM is the BRIDE must be also.
as such she too will in a measure be despised and rejected.
Even By her bretheren.

For did not Jesus say "if any man say he is Christ he will be cast out of the synigogue"?

Christ meaning ANNOINTED.


Those then who listen to the 10's report will reject the other 2's.

and although God had called them ALL OUT OF egypt SO THAT THEY MIGHT ENTER INTO the promise.
They by listenign to the WRONG MESSAGE and believeing it! DID NOT WIN THE PRIZE!

[Nineveh]

I made a thread for your reply gerald, I don't wanna run this thread off topic. It will be called "The Bride and The Body".

[OMEGA]

(1 Th 4:16 KJV) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(1 Th 4:17 KJV) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

==============

When Christ Comes , we go up .

----------------------------------------------

NEXT you have the HOUR of Testing when the Comet hits

the Earth and all who Call on the name of the Lord will be

saved. It seems to be a 15 day period of suffering

caused by the Cataclysmic events of the Comet hitting the Earth.

Where the people call out to God and are Baptized immediately.
------------------------------------------------
(Rev 8:8 KJV) And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;




(Acts 2:19 KJV) And I will show wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

(Acts 2:20 KJV) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

(Acts 2:21 KJV) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Rom 10:14 KJV) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

(Rev 7:13 KJV) And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

(Rev 7:14 KJV) And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

[smothers]

In case of rapture, can I have your car?

[OMEGA]

WHY WOULD YOU WANT A 1988 MERCURY SABLE

WITH 300,000 ON IT ?

[Guy Incognito]

I'm really interested by this subject, my confusion comes in the differance between those who say there is a post-trib rapture an those who say no rapture. Probably because I don't understand the rapture well enough.

Anyway, I'm sure I'm in one of these groups. I can't get away from the fact that the Kingdom of God comes, "like a theif in the night" indicating to me that there will be no pre of mid trib rapture as nothing will give an indication to the day or hour. Although Jesus gave the signs of the times, he did not do so that we should know the exact day or hour but that we have an idea to be expectant of the coming of the kingdom of God.

I can't see justification for the belief that the Bride of Christ is limited to certain believers, this sounds like "faith + works = salvation" to me going against Ephesians 2 but I'll check in on the other thread.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by kingpin
Because "God is not the author of confusion" (I Corinthians 14:33) and the fact that the rapture THEORY is filled with confusion. I don't accept the rapture theory as biblical doctrine.

It's my view the rapture theory is a man made tradition. Study it yourself and post your findings.

Kingpin


Fair enough as far as it goes.
No man should accept a doctrin that he is not fully persuaded and assured of.

Neverthe less.

Is the aproach then to be a folding of the arms, a gritting of the teath and do your worst; the best way to " come to a knowledge of the truth"?

Would it not be better to seek first the kingdom of God and HIS rightousness" and hunger after the truth so your fit to burst.
THEN you are GUARENTEED to come to a knowledge of the truth whater it may turn out to be.
For they who hunger and thirst after rightousness will be filled.

Yet as Christians do we know all things?

Even PETER who got the RIGHT thing concerning who CHRIST was got it wrong when the lord "went a little further" and began to open up more of the truth.

Was it not PAUL who prayed for CHRISTIANS that the"EYES of thier understanding may be opened that they may comprhend with all the siants waht is the exceeding greatness of His power THAT IS TOWARDS THEM WHO BELIVE...."!
if then they needed it how much the MORE do OUR EYES need to be opened.

For the devil STILL blinds the minds of men even CHRISTIANS.
and where as He lost THE BATTLE concerning our SOULS yet do you think that he will do as much to STEAL our inheritence?
and in so far as God had to open the eyes of our understanding to the salvation of our souls.
yet we need to know and UNDERSTAND THAT WHICH IS OURS in christ.

and though we may be BORN again.
yet there are MANY who do NOT know the power of God in any measure "towards THEM who believe" being blinded to the truth that not only are we baptised into CHRIST by the HOLY SPIRIT.
and as it were having life 'have' the HOLY SPIRIT,
But also need to be FILLED with the HOLY SPIRIT so that HE HAS US!
and we can learn to walk in the power of God not struggling in and with the flesh.


So let it be reasonable that their would be confusion.
Not because God wills it but because MEN are LED by thier own thinking rather than the HOLY SPIRIT through the scriptures.
AND THAT DEVIL has thrown up a lot of dust into the eyes of Gods people.
By the very same means that he has always done by the FLESH.

and while I do not understand it all by any means yet...
This I do know and the scriptures CLEARLY show it that there IS a rapture or to put more accurately a "translation" of the BRIDE.
and it is up to us who are HIS to "prepare ourselves" so that we might be READY when "the bridegroom cometh"

[OMEGA]

Definition of Rapture

Plain and Simple :

" WHEN CHRIST COMES DOWN - CHRISTIANS GO UP ."

:angel::angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
:angel::angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

[kingpin]

Geralduk
Until God gives me eyes to see, I'll remain firm with my view concerning the rapture.

Lightson
It wasn't my intent to persuade anyone one way or another regarding the rapture. I think it's up to each individual to decide for themselves, whether to agree or disagree with that theory. I apologize for using the word "lie"; perhaps that was a bit strong and misleading. I'll stick to calling it "a very confusing theory", that I don't agree with.

[Mateo]

*sigh*

Another day, another pretrib rapture thread.

Well, I could trot out the story of Margret McDonald and her dream being picked up by preacher Darby and the ensuing generation at Dallas Theological Seminary basically creating Dispensationalism to give legs to Ms. McDonald's dream but all that isn't really necessary. All we need to do is go back to the very passage that the Pretribers hang their hat on to expose the fallacy of this notion. To wit:

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP OF GOD and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


WITH A SHOUT! So much for a "secret" rapture... Even gonna blow the trumpet of God! Sounds kinda noisy... sounds kinda familiar...


Mat 24:29 Immediatly AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear THE sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Well, looky here... there's that noisy trumpet again... and there's the Lord gathering those that are His again, only now it's plainly stated that this glorious event happens AFTER the great tribulation.

I've got a hundred dollar bill for the first person to find His return referred to in any thing else but the singular. THE return of Christ. Singular... as in there's only one of them.

What is so difficult to understand here?

:doh:

[Mateo]

Dave MacPherson was the first to actually do the leg work to unearth the origins of the pretrib rapture notion. I by no means embrace "Preterism" but anyone wishing a sampling of Mr. MacPherson's work should check out this web site.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/macpherson-dave_dd_01.html

[LightSon]

Originally posted by kingpin
Lightson
It wasn't my intent to persuade anyone one way or another regarding the rapture. I think it's up to each individual to decide for themselves, whether to agree or disagree with that theory. I apologize for using the word "lie"; perhaps that was a bit strong and misleading. I'll stick to calling it "a very confusing theory", that I don't agree with.

kingpin,
Thank you for your most reasonable response. I appreciate your conciliatory tone and I accept your apology, even though it wasn't really needed. A simple retraction (or qualification) of your use of that L-word was all I was really after.

After reflecting, I confess to having overreacted a bit. Twice this month, I've been called a liar and I didn't like it. I suspect this influenced me to address you. The word "lie" is misleading. I understand that conventional speech allows us to label a doctrine we believe false as "a lie". Slowly, I have trained myself not to utilize that convention, as it unnecessarily stokes the furnace of people's emotions. Likewise, the use of “heretic” and “heresy” are inflammatory. I’m not saying we should never use such labels, but rather that we should be double sure of where the bar is positioned, and that we’ve met the burden of proof.

The rapture is not a doctrine that I would separate from a brother over. I have dear friends who likewise reject the rapture as false. If someone did feel a need to separate from me over my position on the rapture, I would certainly want to understand their rationale.

[Mateo]

I like it when people are nice.

[Living4Him]

Amen!

[Lovejoy]

With an ounce more civility, and well thought and presented rebuke, this site would have some real power.

See, that was loving rebuke. Anyone feel chastised? Anybody?

[Mateo]

Alright LoveJoy,

Don't brake your arm patting yourself on the back.

(You knew I couldn't let all this mushy stuff go on too long. Too much sugar gives you cavities)

:p

[kingpin]

Mateo
Nice job!
I concur with your Dave MacPherson post. Please stop trying to expose the incredible cover-up. Ha, ha, ha :chuckle:

[OMEGA]

And the answer is:

When Jesus comes down ,

we will go up .:thumb:

[geralduk]

Originally posted by OMEGA
Definition of Rapture

Plain and Simple :

" WHEN CHRIST COMES DOWN - CHRISTIANS GO UP ."

:angel::angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
:angel::angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:


The rapture is but the "translation" of ENOCH.

Where his walk with God was so perfect that there came a time when he was nearer God than earth and God said come and He went as it were" and was not for God took him"

But even as Enoch was translated there was NOAH WHO THOUGH FINDING GRACE WITH GOD never the less had to go through THAT 'great tribulation' of the world.
But his soul was saved.


"As in the days of NOAH so shall it be in the last days"

[geralduk]

Originally posted by kingpin
Geralduk
Until God gives me eyes to see, I'll remain firm with my view concerning the rapture.

Lightson
It wasn't my intent to persuade anyone one way or another regarding the rapture. I think it's up to each individual to decide for themselves, whether to agree or disagree with that theory. I apologize for using the word "lie"; perhaps that was a bit strong and misleading. I'll stick to calling it "a very confusing theory", that I don't agree with.

Fair enough again.

For no one should be confused!]#

but KNOW the truth.
and you cannot do that by a mish mash of scripture.

I would say though that not knowing the history of the term 'rapture' it does seem a might confusing in itself.
For I do not know where in scripture it can be found.
"TRANSLATION" is I think the ACCURATE term for it even as it was in ENOCHS DAY.

For RAPTURE sounds like a spiritual high as it were.
But to be TRANSLATED.
At its simplest level.
is like one language being TRANSLATED into another.
and where the message stays the same but the FORM is different.

is then not "corruption putting on inccorruption and mortal putting on imortality"?
a '"TRANSLATION"?

Something else is worth saying here as well.

This subject cannot be adequately covered by the use of a few verses.
and it is hoped and prAyed for that the verses and 'reasonings ' whose foundation is the scriptures that ARE used will be ENOUGH that will be the KEY to further understanding which I have every confidence that the HOLY SPIRIT will lead any who seek the truth.
For time and space nesscitates a VERY condensed veiw on this.
Also the wonderfull thing about the truth is that no man has the monopoly of it.
and that it STANDS wether men believe it or not.
and as such ALL men can find it for it cannot be hid.
and if it is hid then it is hid to them who believe not the truth.
and if we but are willing to let HIM lead us into all truth then He will lead us into this matter as well.
Even as He has led us so far.

[Mateo]

Geralduk,

Every time I think I've got a handle on what it is you believe you throw me another curve.

[Living4Him]

Originally posted by geralduk
The rapture is but the "translation" of ENOCH.

Where his walk with God was so perfect that there came a time when he was nearer God than earth and God said come and He went as it were" and was not for God took him"

But even as Enoch was translated there was NOAH WHO THOUGH FINDING GRACE WITH GOD never the less had to go through THAT 'great tribulation' of the world.
But his soul was saved.


"As in the days of NOAH so shall it be in the last days"

Morning Mr. Geralduk,

This is odd, I woke up this morning with the Holy Spirit bringing to my mind Enoch and how he walked with God. Then it went from remembering this story to being my prayer. I just was excited about seeing you write this that I had to share what happened to me this morning. "Walk with God" was very strong on my heart. So I believe you are very correct with posting this.

God bless!

[Living4Him]

Originally posted by Mateo
Geralduk,

Every time I think I've got a handle on what it is you believe you throw me another curve.

When I read this, this verse came to mind so I will post it:

"The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Mateo
Dave MacPherson was the first to actually do the leg work to unearth the origins of the pretrib rapture notion. I by no means embrace "Preterism" but anyone wishing a sampling of Mr. MacPherson's work should check out this web site.

http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/macpherson-dave_dd_01.html

Yet I would 'argue 'this:

That this is a PUBLIC forum.
and while i have no obejections to quoting this or that author as a basis for your 'argument' I do not belive it is right to argue your case by sugesting that someone goes elsewhere to understand the 'argument' put forward.
it could be further argued that if you have truly understood the authjors 'argument' then it should be or it is not unreasonable to say that you should be able to reproduce the 'argument' here in your own words.
For i would argue that if a truth is understood then it can be 'proved' or tested' from any angle and from any direction.
That you might come to it.
save the one where you START in error.


Therefore the 'argument' should be done in PUBLIC even as the arguments are stated in public. in other words where the original assertion is stated.

I would also argue that it is WISER to argue from the SCRIPTURES rather than from men.
Even if what they said was true and your original understanding was arrived at by their reasoning but whos FOUNDATION was the scriptures.
That way there is no debate or prejudice against one 'school' of theology over another.
Bu that all who hold to the name as CHRISTAINS having a common denominator being CHRIST and whos foundation of thier faith being the SCRIPTURES can if willing "all come to a unity of the faith" by coming to a common understanding of that by which TRUE faith comes even the "WORD OF GOD"
Not nescersarily by my or anothers reasoning but by the Word of Gods.
and where as I am fully persuaded of the truth I can but 'argue' my case from them.
And am happy in the truth; that the truth in which I am fully persuaded of can be found by all men even as they are willing as i was, to be LED TO IT.
and if by my reasoning you are LED to the same conclusion praise God but let it be by the scriptures that convinces you not my reasoning.
and be fully persuded in your own minds not because I or anothe r has said it is true but because the HOLY SPIRIT has LED to "to a knowldge of it"
For we ALL must come to a FULL knowldge of the truth not only that which gives us LIFE.
but that which makes us GROW in grace and int he knowldge of God.
For all that I have I have recieved and rejoice in that which I have recieved.
Have I recived ALL then?
No.
But I do rejoice in that which I have and look forward to more.
But we are to KNOW the truth.
Not a knowledge "that puffeth up" but by the SPIRIT that giveth life"
and it is that LIVELY knowledge that feeds and refreshes our souls.
First by the MILK then by the MEAT.
and makes us strong.
For that which is written should LEAD us to HIM .
and bring us to know not only His ACTS but also "HIS WAYS"
and it is them who "know thier God who shall be strong and do exploits"
But if we by mans wisdom seek to understand Gods wisdom we will not believe it.
For the carnal mind is at emnity with God.
therefore we are to be"RENEWED in the SPIRIT of our minds"
that we might "have the mind of Christ"
and come unto the perfect man unto the fullness and the measure of the stature of Christ.

I am not persuaded then of anothers arguments but by the Word AND the SPIRIT of God.
Even in the SAME manner as we were BORN.

Therefore let our 'ARGUMENTS' be then not of anothers but of that which we have received and been assured of.
For though I might speak of anothers arguments yet I might not "know" of that which he speaks.
So refer if you wish but let the 'argument' stay here.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Mateo
Geralduk,

Every time I think I've got a handle on what it is you believe you throw me another curve.

I have been very clear on what I believe over the range of my posts I think.

But if you mean about this particular subject?

Then I make no apologies.as to the RANGE of what I believe.

For I think we 'we' have too small a veiw on God and a to LOW veiw of the bride of Christ.

and where as it seems to me that too many think that being BORNagain is the be all and END all of our salvation.
it is by the scriptures but the BEGINNING even as it si when we are BORN into this world.

The subject of the BRIDE of Christ then pertains to our " HIGH calling"
AND to "what MANNER of men we should be"
It IS THAT which we are ALL who claim to be His are to "APREHEND " FOR THAT IS WHAT WE "WERE APREHENDED FOR"


Ill say again and make no apologies for it.


The 'RAPTURE' confusion comes from a WRONG understanding of the NATURE,CHRACTER AND DISPOSITION of the BRIDE of CHRIST.

Get THAT right and the rapture 'questions' fall into place.#

So bare with me.
My main objective here is to get people to THINK.
not according to MENS reasoning or this or that 'school' of theology but according to the REASONING AND LOGIC of SCRIPTURE.
Which being Gods does not always fit or goes along with ours.

Not then to stir up strife and "vain debate"
but to get men to SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES and LEAN not on thier own understanding but TRUST in the LORD to LEAD them into ALL truth even as he LED them to a the truth and knowledge of salvation.

[Mateo]

Beloved Geralduk,

Got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning did we?

My statement that I still didn't feel like I understood what it was exactly that you believed was not meant as a slight, just an honest observation. As the guy who used to translate your offereings for Squeaky I guess I'm as likely as not to know what you believe and if I don't I'm guessing there aren't too many here who do either.

As an aside, unnecessarily long posts are difficult to read. At times it is necessary but in the first of the two posts you made above you restated the same idea in slightly different terms about a half a dozen times.

If I understand your concern correctly you take umbrage with my posting a web sight address that contains some of the works of a man who has actually gone to Scotland and documented the origins of the Pre Trib rapture notion... Friend, I don't have time in this life to go do that although I would have loved to. Someone did though and I am grateful... evidently you are not.

Concerning your admonishon to stay in the scriptures... If ever there was a case of preaching to the choir this is it. You're not likely to run into too many people who have spent more hours in the Word than I have. Having spent tens of thousands of dollars on a theological library I sold it for pennies on the dollar so I would not rob time from the one Book that counts. If you will review both my posts and yours on this thread you will note that It was me that offered spripture while you have not.

I spent the first three years of my Christian walk studying the Bible night and day. It was literally all I did besides eat, bathe and do laundry. It was only after this three years that I began to talk to others about their beliefs as Christains. I laughed in amazement at the first person who tried to "enlighten" me about the pre trib rapture. This person has since come to reject the notion. If you would like to address this subject here "scripturally" I would be more than happy to.

I live to serve,

Mateo

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Mateo
Beloved Geralduk,

Got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning did we?

My statement that I still didn't feel like I understood what it was exactly that you believed was not meant as a slight, just an honest observation. As the guy who used to translate your offereings for Squeaky I guess I'm as likely as not to know what you believe and if I don't I'm guessing there aren't too many here who do either.

As an aside, unnecessarily long posts are difficult to read. At times it is necessary but in the first of the two posts you made above you restated the same idea in slightly different terms about a half a dozen times.

If I understand your concern correctly you take umbrage with my posting a web sight address that contains some of the works of a man who has actually gone to Scotland and documented the origins of the Pre Trib rapture notion... Friend, I don't have time in this life to go do that although I would have loved to. Someone did though and I am grateful... evidently you are not.

Concerning your admonishon to stay in the scriptures... If ever there was a case of preaching to the choir this is it. You're not likely to run into too many people who have spent more hours in the Word than I have. Having spent tens of thousands of dollars on a theological library I sold it for pennies on the dollar so I would not rob time from the one Book that counts. If you will review both my posts and yours on this thread you will note that It was me that offered spripture while you have not.

I spent the first three years of my Christian walk studying the Bible night and day. It was literally all I did besides eat, bathe and do laundry. It was only after this three years that I began to talk to others about their beliefs as Christains. I laughed in amazement at the first person who tried to "enlighten" me about the pre trib rapture. This person has since come to reject the notion. If you would like to address this subject here "scripturally" I would be more than happy to.

I live to serve,

Mateo

You bathed and did laundry?! No wonder I lost all my friends when I came to Christ!

Reading some of the immense work you have done recently, I can't help but think you have stopped eating some recently Mateo. I plan on fasting on Sunday, and am spending the day in the Word, but I hope to have something interesting to post on one of your new threads by that night. As for this thread, I have no opinion.

[Mateo]

LoveJoy,

I know it looks like I've been inhumanly prolific in my output as of late. Lest I give the wrong impression let me here admit that much of what I have posted are word studies I have done years ago and dusted off to be offered here on TOL. I know it is a lot to absorb all at once as it is the product of years of study. As I told you earlier I felt like I have spent far too much time quibbling with people whose only interest is to quibble and not enough trying to talk with those who have ears. Lord willing there's much more to come. I look forward to your input. That is how I learn and grow.

Yours in Him,

Mateo

[geralduk]

Mateo:

One of the reasons I prefer speaking to people rather than typing to them!
Apart from my sometimes apalling typing.
You can get a wrong impression by what is typed and put in a persons atttitude which was not there when typed.
So if my posts give that impression that do not take it that way.That is NOT was was or is intended.But is more a lack on my part in articulating by post!
For i see no profit to any either to me or toyou to descend to the place of nitpicking and devouring one another.
or in generating "vaing debates" and "foollish questions"
As such then i was nether offended by your post or sought needlesly to offend.
Nor as I said in my post( I had thought) any objection to any REFERENCES that a person can refer too.
My 'argument' was that an ASSERTION stated in public forums such as this cannot be 'argued' by saying that those who disagree with that assertion should then go off somewhere else.
When in truth the assertion wether by another or yourself should
be argued' here and if you wish to use the refered persons 'arguments' well and good.
But it is not right in my thinking to NOT ARGUE your case but only ASSERT it in PUBLIC then expect others to find the 'arguments' in PRIVATE as it were.
In truth then if a person makes an ASSERTION then weight of 'argument' is on THE ONE WHO MAKES THE ASSERTION!
to substantiate it.
Not for me or any to go chasing after them somewhere else.

Now if you do not understand what i have written fine.
let me know and I am more than willing to claryfy it or put it another way so it that it CAN be understood.if at all possable.

Having said that.
I DO try and be as carefull in what I say.
as such you will find that i had NO OBJECTION to anothers labour.
But 'argued' that if what they have written IS understood and thier 'argument' has its FOUNDATION in scripture then to save ANY prejudice by some and the needless reading of a thousand books on theology.
Would it not be simple to show the same argument from the scriptures using thier work(if you wish) as the foundation for your thinking.
But who's understanding (if it is ) comes from the SAME scource.
and where as one may argue and reject CALVIN OR LUTHOR or another.
Because of ones own 'school' of theology.
By using the scriptures it gives LESS ROOM for the DEVIL to do so.
and harder for a man to throw off so lightly a "SOUND"'argument' from them.

In Christ
Gerald.

[Mateo]

Dear Geralduk,

In your most recent post you made the following “assertion”:

“My 'argument' was that an ASSERTION stated in public forums such as this cannot be 'argued' by saying that those who disagree with that assertion should then go off somewhere else.”

When you make such a statement in the body of a post with my name at the top of it it leaves one with the impression you are accusing me of doing such a thing. I have never suggested anyone go anywhere here at TOL with the most recent exception of inviting Leo Volont to use the “new thread” button at the top of the page as he was filling up my thread about righteousness with his off topic ranting about Paul being the Anti-Christ. Such “assertions” are what lead to misunderstanding and consternation. You then go on to make the following “suggestion”:

“I DO try and be as carefull in what I say.
as such you will find that i had NO OBJECTION to anothers labour.
But 'argued' that if what they have written IS understood and thier 'argument' has its FOUNDATION in scripture then to save ANY prejudice by some and the needless reading of a thousand books on theology.
Would it not be simple to show the same argument from the scriptures using thier work(if you wish) as the foundation for your thinking.”

If I understand what you have said here correctly you seem to be suggesting that if one is to use the work of another to bolster their “assertions” that scripture should be woven into their offering so as to substantiate it rather than just referring to the work itself. As you seem to have forgotten what has transpired previously on this thread I will reproduce it here this one time. You made the following “assertion”:

“So let it be reasonable that their would be confusion.
Not because God wills it but because MEN are LED by thier own thinking rather than the HOLY SPIRIT through the scriptures.
AND THAT DEVIL has thrown up a lot of dust into the eyes of Gods people.
By the very same means that he has always done by the FLESH.

and while I do not understand it all by any means yet...
This I do know and the scriptures CLEARLY show it that there IS a rapture or to put more accurately a "translation" of the BRIDE.
and it is up to us who are HIS to "prepare ourselves" so that we might be READY when "the bridegroom cometh"”


If I understand your definition of “assertion” correctly this statement of yours seems to fit the bill. You’ll notice there is not one scripture offered in way of substanciation either. I then offered the following post

“*sigh*

Another day, another pretrib rapture thread.

Well, I could trot out the story of Margret McDonald and her dream being picked up by preacher Darby and the ensuing generation at Dallas Theological Seminary basically creating Dispensationalism to give legs to Ms. McDonald's dream but all that isn't really necessary. All we need to do is go back to the very passage that the Pretribers hang their hat on to expose the fallacy of this notion. To wit:

1Thes 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a SHOUT, with the VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL, and with the TRUMP OF GOD and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


WITH A SHOUT! So much for a "secret" rapture... Even gonna blow the trumpet of God! Sounds kinda noisy... sounds kinda familiar...


Mat 24:29 Immediatly AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear THE sign of the Son of man in heaven:
and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn,
and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And He shall send His angels WITH A GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



Well, looky here... there's that noisy trumpet again... and there's the Lord gathering those that are His again, only now it's plainly stated that this glorious event happens AFTER the great tribulation.

I've got a hundred dollar bill for the first person to find His return referred to in any thing else but the singular. THE return of Christ. Singular... as in there's only one of them.

What is so difficult to understand here?”


Granted I made an assertion but I backed it up with scripture. I then posted a website which offered additional information on the origins of the pretrib rapture notion. For whatever reason you completely ignored my assertion and it’s scriptural foundation and took exception with my listing of said website. By your own definition I have substanciated my “assertion” scripturally and then offered another’s work as additional info in the manner that you have prescribed. For the life of me I can’t understand what you want of me that I haven’t already given.

[geralduk]

What I hang my hat on is all the scriptures.

The problem I have is that you have the coming of Christ with a LOUD SHOUT!
(WHOS SHOUTING BY THE WAY?)
and you have Him coming "as a theif in the night"

Now a theif comes AT NIGHT because MOST PEOPLE ARE ASLEEP!
and REMAIN ASLEEP while the HOUSE IS 'ROBBED'!
He does NOT come SHOUTING!!!"!!

ALSO there is the scripture that speaks of Him coming as "LIGHTENING"

Now lightening COMES in a MOMENT in a twinkling of an eye and is GONE!

I do not deny the scriptures you have mentioned.
But neither do I deny the ones above.

and the logical and CONSEQUENTIAL reasoning shows that they are DIOMETRICLY in CONTRADICTION!

Plus you have the scripture that says "to the that LOOK for Him shall He apear the second time"
Now if "EVERY eye shall see Him" and it is NOT denied.

that too CONTRADICTS the previos verse that says that ONLY THOSE WHO LOOK for Him shall He apear the second time.
For it is not being ilogical is it? to say that those who are NOT looking for Him will NOT see Him!
Using the SAME logic of scripture that says "whosover believeth ON Him shal not perish"
The reverse being that they who DO NOT.....DO! and "thye who honour God I will honour"
The reverse also being true they who do not are not!


Then you have the CONTRADICTION that on the one hand says He will come to the MOUNT OF OLIVES and there His feet will TOUCH.
and the verse that says He is coming to the AIR where we who are READY (NOT ASLEEP?)will MEET HIM.
Some 'argue' that we meet Him in the air to then go to...?
Then with Him to the mount of olives?
But they give no 'reasoning' to this only in my veiw JUMP to the conclusion not because of any scripture for it.

The logical and reasonable answer is simply that the Lord is talking about two different events.

There is far more of course that 'proves'or tests' it but the contradictions above is as good enough place to start as any.

I hold that ANY contradiction of scripture can and should be RESOLVED with other scripture in such a manner that does not twist the scriptures nor take them out of thier simple and direct meaning.
and invariably do so and are.

In CHRIST
Gerald

[spadesalone]

Hey are you guys preterists or what? Because all one needs to do is read the OT and what coming on the clouds means to discover that the same language is used in the NT which demonstrates that Christ returned in 70AD.

Note: The Jews were expecting a physical kingdom to be est. but Christ said "my kingdom is not of this world". Evangelicals have been making the same mistake for far too long! Jesus said He would return in the liftime of the apostles and He DID! Matt. 16:27,28

[servent101]

Spadesalone

Hey are you guys preterists or what? Because all one needs to do is read the OT and what coming on the clouds means to discover that the same language is used in the NT which demonstrates that Christ returned in 70AD.

I lean towards being a preterist - and I am at odds with what world we are in - I don't think we made it to the new earth yet, or are under the new heaven - but I am sure we can get there some how - and am looking forward to that day - have you figured out any of the details yet? Help Me out a little eh!

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[spadesalone]

The Heavans and Earth in the OT are the COVENANT that the Jews were under at the time. The New covenant IS the new heavan and earth. When we die we experience heavan in the spiritual sense but we are in the kingdom now. Hey I tell you what go to www.preterist.us and see if it clarifies some things for you. It is a great web site that is in language the layman like me and is quite helpful.

grace and peace

[Mateo]

Spades,

I don't know the catchy theological one word name for it but imagine the polar opposite of a preterist and that would be me.

;)

[geralduk]

Originally posted by spadesalone

Hey are you guys preterists or what? Because all one needs to do is read the OT and what coming on the clouds means to discover that the same language is used in the NT which demonstrates that Christ returned in 70AD.

Note: The Jews were expecting a physical kingdom to be est. but Christ said "my kingdom is not of this world". Evangelicals have been making the same mistake for far too long! Jesus said He would return in the liftime of the apostles and He DID! Matt. 16:27,28

Well Im a christian not a preterist whatever that might mean.
and If Christ has come already in 70 ad.
Then what are the last nigh on 2000 years about?
and why Did HE COME THEN and to DO what exactly?
For I would have thought that there would have been some record of the event when His feet touched the mount of olives.

But in truth "GOD who in sundry times and in divers ways spoke by the prophets hath in (LISTEN) THESE LAST DAYS spoken to(LISTEN) US"
When the LORD CAME it was the LAST DAYS and those days were "GREEN"
We are STILL in the LAST DAYS and they are now "DRY" and ready to be BURNT.

[Mateo]

Well, master Gerald, there is some of what you said I’m not real clear on but much of it I think I can make heads or tails of and will give it go.



“What I hang my hat on is all the scriptures.

The problem I have is that you have the coming of Christ with a LOUD SHOUT!
(WHOS SHOUTING BY THE WAY?)
and you have Him coming "as a theif in the night"

Now a theif comes AT NIGHT because MOST PEOPLE ARE ASLEEP!
and REMAIN ASLEEP while the HOUSE IS 'ROBBED'!
He does NOT come SHOUTING!!!"!!””



To answer your first question as to the identity of who is making what noise, the answer would appear to be at least three distinct entities:

Psalms 47:5 God is gone up with a shout, the LORD with the sound of a trumpet.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

God blows the trumpet, Jesus shouts and the archangel (Likely Michael) gives voice. Although the passage in Psalm 47 might seem to have this backward the apparent contradiction is a translational problem. The word “God” in the passage above in the Hebrew is “Elohiym” which can be both plural and singular intensive and can refer to an individual or a class of beings. The word translated as LORD in the Hebrew is “Jehovah” and I’m guessing you know who He is. Jesus is the Elohiym in question and His father being the trumpeter.

Concerning the thief in the night passage, let’s have a look at two of them.

1 Thes 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

Here we see Paul suggesting to his audience that the reason that they would not be crept up on by the Lord unawares is because they know from scripture what to look for prior to His arrival. The event referrenced above as “when they shall say peace and safety” refers to the coming peace treaty between Israel and her neighbors also referred to by Daniel, David and Ezekiel as a “covenant”. This does not say that the Lord is coming TO be a thief as you suggested above but rather that His coming will surprise those who don’t know scripture. Let’s have a look at another “thief in the night” passage:

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Again we see here the sudden arrival of the Lord followed by lots of noise. The word of God is the model of consistancy. Let have a look at some more of your offering on this subject.



“ALSO there is the scripture that speaks of Him coming as "LIGHTENING"

Now lightening COMES in a MOMENT in a twinkling of an eye and is GONE!”



Again you pull a phrase out of it’s place in scripture and craft for it another meaning than the one intended. A look at this phrase in the context of the verse in which it was given will quickly clear up this misunderstanding.

Luke 17: 22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.
23 And they shall say to you, See here; or, see there: go not after them, nor follow them.
24 For as the lightning, that lighteneth out of the one part under heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall also the Son of man be in his day.

Here it may be seen the Jesus is telling His disciples that the day would come that some would argue for some sort of secret or unseen arrival on His part and He makes it clear that, like lightning in the sky, every one is going to see it. John reminds us of this as well:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Let’s address your next supposition:



“I do not deny the scriptures you have mentioned.
But neither do I deny the ones above.

and the logical and CONSEQUENTIAL reasoning shows that they are DIOMETRICLY in CONTRADICTION!

Plus you have the scripture that says "to the that LOOK for Him shall He apear the second time"
Now if "EVERY eye shall see Him" and it is NOT denied.

that too CONTRADICTS the previos verse that says that ONLY THOSE WHO LOOK for Him shall He apear the second time.
For it is not being ilogical is it? to say that those who are NOT looking for Him will NOT see Him!
Using the SAME logic of scripture that says "whosover believeth ON Him shal not perish"
The reverse being that they who DO NOT.....DO! and "thye who honour God I will honour"
The reverse also being true they who do not are not!”



Gerald, here you have compounded your previous error of pulling scripture out of context and crafting an alternate meaning for it by adding to the word of God as well in suggesting that Paul said “ONLY” those who look for him shall He appear the second time. This is unwise. There is a terrible penalty for those that do such a thing. Let’s put this phrase back in it’s place and have another look at it.

Heb 9: 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Here it may be seen that Paul was explaining to his Hebrew brothers of the singular nature of Jesus’s sacrifice and that His return would be the salvation of those that look for that return. He does not say that only those who look for Jesus’s return will see Him. Let’s move on:




“Then you have the CONTRADICTION that on the one hand says He will come to the MOUNT OF OLIVES and there His feet will TOUCH.
and the verse that says He is coming to the AIR where we who are READY (NOT ASLEEP?)will MEET HIM.
Some 'argue' that we meet Him in the air to then go to...?
Then with Him to the mount of olives?
But they give no 'reasoning' to this only in my veiw JUMP to the conclusion not because of any scripture for it.”




Here you argue that the passage in 1 Thes doesn’t say those that are caught up with him are going with Him to the Mount of Olives. I would first remind you that this passage also doesn’t say that they were going with Him to heaven either. By way of a second point I would invite you to have a look at some scripture which does indicate specifically where He and His are going at His return:

Mic 4: 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted;
7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

Eze 34: 11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day.
13 And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Zec 8: 7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Behold, I will save my people from the east country, and from the west country;
8 And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness.

Jer 3: 14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Hopefully these passages are sufficient to make the point. If not there are plenty more should you require them. Now let’s move on to your summary:




“The logical and reasonable answer is simply that the Lord is talking about two different events.

There is far more of course that 'proves'or tests' it but the contradictions above is as good enough place to start as any.

I hold that ANY contradiction of scripture can and should be RESOLVED with other scripture in such a manner that does not twist the scriptures nor take them out of thier simple and direct meaning.
and invariably do so and are.

In CHRIST
Gerald “





Gerald,

I would submit that the word of God does not contradict itself and that the contradictions you allude to are those born of trying to make scripture say something it doesn’t, namely, that there is more than one “second” coming of Jesus. This is the mother of all contradictions. You’ve said that there are more scripture that “prove” your point about the contradictions in the Bible regarding the return of Christ. I invite you to offer them for inspection. Might be that someone gets edified.

Yours in Him,

Mateo

[spadesalone]

Hey guys the bottom line is Christ says in the gospels that He will return in the life of the apostles.

The "earth" that is destroyed is in reference to the Old Covenant.

NOTE: The Bible never says "THE END OF TIME" but rather the end of THE time ( the OLD JEWISH AGE). CHRIST IS KING AND IF HE IS COMING YET TO US in the still future then its a THIRD coming and the Bible I read speaks of a SECOND coming only!

please let the WORD inform your views and not What you have been rasied with.

[spadesalone]

And To be clear about what is burnt, it should be observed that the elements that are burnt mean systems and not physical dirt. I am a Christian with a Preterist view which means "PAST". Christ is not coming back to destroy planet earth and if you read carefully you will see that God has est the creation forever and not going to create a new physical planet. Christ came back to destroy Jeruselam. And that he did in 70ad. The historical proof along with the biblical passages is undeniable!

please prayerfully consider CHRIST's words to his desciples.

[Mateo]

Spades,

I've made a little phone call... you should be getting a visit from some nice people. They won't hurt you. Please go with them for your own sake. They have a nice room for you with padded walls and they will feed you three meals a day and even do your laundry...

:kookoo:

[Mateo]

I find it interesting and instructive that I cannot vote in the "poll" which is the heart of this thread. As Paul Simon once quipped, "Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and he disregards the rest". That said, as yet I still have a voice here on this thread and I think that sufficient to the task at hand... though my voice is not allowed on all threads.

Must be my breath

;)

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Mateo

I find it interesting and instructive that I cannot vote in the "poll" which is the heart of this thread. As Paul Simon once quipped, "Still, a man hears what he wants to hear and he disregards the rest". That said, as yet I still have a voice here on this thread and I think that sufficient to the task at hand... though my voice is not allowed on all threads.

Must be my breath

;)
Why can't you vote? Do you considerer yourself a Christian? And do you have an opinion on this issue?

[Mateo]

LightSon,


Question 1:
Why can't you vote?

Answer 1:
Actually I can and did just now. I hadn't felt compelled to vote but when I posted a response to Gerald's post I happened to see at the top of the page an indicator box which said I couldn't vote. This has since disappeared. Might have been one of several infarctions I have experienced during TOL's most recent upgrade.


Question 2:
Do you considerer yourself a Christian?

Answer 2: I would like to think so but not all would agree. Maybe I better ask One Eyed Jack if it's ok before being so bold as to utter such a thing publically. :rolleyes:



Questgion 3:
And do you have an opinion on this issue?

Answer 3: Either you didn't start at the top of the page when you started reading or we are going to have to brush up on our reading comprehension skills a leeeeetle bit.

;)

[spadesalone]

Mateo.....I will be glad to provide the names of the many shcolars who hold to my position. It is not heard of because it does not SELL like the end time madness everyone in the US hears about. If you can give me one passage that supports Christ's coming a third time, then I will recant. Till then my thoughts are held captive to the WORD OF GOD and not what MOM and DAD and PREACHERs ON TV have TAUGHT me.

Truth is at stake here and not just a view of the end times. Even if something seems insignificant to us just because we can't understand it or are bathered by it is not a good reason to deny it.

Please present BIBLICAL proof for your position and not your own philosophy.

[Mateo]

Spades,

A look at your first two posts on this subject reveals you spending the entirety of them both explaining how what the word of God plainly says on the face of it isn't what it really means. I have no doubt any other scripture that I might put before you will be met by a pat answer received from one or more of the "shcolars" you have chosen to chase after. In regurgitating their ofal you commit the error you accuse others of. Try a mental enima and read the Bible again for yourself. You'll be glad you did. In the mean time... you're lost as a goose, friend, and time is running out. (apologies to "Goose")

:nono:

P.S. You have no idea what my beliefs are or how I came to hold them or you would likely take a little different aproach.

[Mateo]

According to the poll the second most popular belief is that there won't be a "rapture".

Facinating!

Are these folks athiests? Do they not understand that the word "rapture" is a verbal shorthand for the gathering together of the saints into the air at Jesus' return? Do they understand and just don't put any creedence in the notion?

I'm reeeeeeeel curious.

:think:

[spadesalone]

The rapture is spiritual and not physical. Why did Christ pray "do not take them out ouf the world but deliver them..." in John 17? Anyone who reads pauls words that the body is RAISED SPIRITUAL and not physical can plainly see this.

Mateo instead of pounding the insults to me please pound scripture. For it makes a much better sound. I still have yet to see some Biblical support for your views.

May we sharpen each other and build one another up in love...not tear down.

Grace and Peace.

[spadesalone]

The Bible never speaks of the end of time. You will not find this in the Scriptures. Instead we find "the end of the age". Now this end of the age is in reference to the Old Covenant/"Heavans and Earth". Now if Christ, Peter, and Paul all say that these Heavans and Earth are to end SOON, what does Soon mean? In the old Test. everytime that Christ's judgment is predicted the prophets add "but the time is still not near" This is approximately 5-600 years before hand. In the New Test. we see that the judgment IS NEAR. Now it is 2000 years plus and we are hearing evangelicals say that near, soon, about and words like that don't really mean what we think they mean because " a day is as a thousand years to the Lord and so on" But the problem is that the Bible is God speaking to man. If God said to Himself "the time is near" then surely we would not know how to take that. But like I said God is talking to man.

[Granite]

Originally posted by Mateo

According to the poll the second most popular belief is that there won't be a "rapture".

Facinating!

Are these folks athiests? Do they not understand that the word "rapture" is a verbal shorthand for the gathering together of the saints into the air at Jesus' return? Do they understand and just don't put any creedence in the notion?

I'm reeeeeeeel curious.

:think:

That's the way I voted. Only because the Hal Lindsey/Salem Kirban version of the "rapture" is the way the word is popularly understood today.

Rest assured I am not an atheist.

[Mateo]

I understand your antipathy with the term "rapture" as it has become inextricably entwined with the pretrib view. However I do acknowledge that it is handy to have a one word term as a verbal short hand for the lengthy phrase ''gathering together of the saints unto the Lord" and so I don't begrudge those that use it so long as t