What is a CHRISTIAN? [Archive] - Theology Forum

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King David

December 20th, 2003, 12:05 AM

Having been recently banned from the "Exclusively Christian" thread or forum, since, as a "Mormon", I am NOT considered to be a "Christian" by "them", I ask you -- WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN? This can ALSO be answered by WHAT or WHO is NOT a CHRISTIAN. But, to both questions, or definition, give us WHY. The Bible is one place to begin with.

And, could you folks (for once) try to BE Christian on THIS thread, at least? Please, NO name calling! Let's refrain from judgement of each other.

--KING DAVID

King David

December 20th, 2003, 12:28 AM

I thought it might well help to list some questions one perhaps might answer to respond to my initial question.

Is a CHRISTIAN one by being a member of Christ's church?

If so, WHICH Church is it?

Is a CHRISTIAN one who behaves a certain way? Does or does not do certain things?

In regards of BELIEF, is BELIEF of paramount importance? If so, why?

What would define a person or persons who are NOT Christians, and more importantly -- WHY?

What are a CHRISTIAN'S hope/s for regarding the afterlife?

What if a person commits grievous sin/s? Is he/she still considered a 'Christian'?

If a person does NOT accept Jesus as the Christ, can they be saved, even if they are good, honest, kind, etc., otherwise?

Why do YOUR consider yourself to be CHRISTIAN (if you do). And what DIFFERENCE will that make or mean for YOU?

--KING DAVID

okinrus

December 20th, 2003, 12:43 AM

Perhaps it would be better if you would give us your definition?

Living4Him

December 20th, 2003, 01:12 AM

He who confesses that Jesus is the Son of the Living God and believes in His heart that God raised Him from the dead shall be saved.

Blessed are the poor in spirit

Blessed are they who mourn

Blessed are the meek

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness

Blessed are the merciful

Blessed are the pure in heart

Blessed are the peacemakers

Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake

Christ Jesus is able to save to the uttermost those who call on Him.

No church attendance will save you. No works will save you. No amount of studying will save you. No amount of good works will save you.

Christ Jesus is the one who saves. Put your trust in Him. He alone is faithful.

OMEGA

December 20th, 2003, 01:32 AM

Question : What do you call a Follower of Christ

Answer : A Christian

Question : What do you call a Follower of Moroni

Answer : A Moron - ite . .

That is why you are having so many Hassles David.

There can be NO FALSENESS in your belief.

You must be True to the Teachings of Christ

and NOT True to the Teachings of Moroni who was obviously

having a good laugh at the Gullibility of the simple farmers

who fell for his teachings.

YOU CANNOT SERVE 2 Masters

Either Christ is your Master or Moroni is .

Who do you Believe in Christ or Moroni ??????????

You can't have it both ways .:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

Uriyah

December 20th, 2003, 01:59 AM

A Christian is one who follows Christ and his teaching.

Christ taught the Law, to not stop keeping the Law, and that he didn't come to destory the Law. So if one does not follow this, they are not a Christian.

Christ taught that only the Father person is the true God. So if one does not follow this, they are not a Christian.

These are just two, but they should be enough for you to get the idea.

Leo Volont

December 20th, 2003, 03:44 AM

I wonder whether such a thing as a Christian even needs to exist.

When the Angel came to Mary, He told Her that She would give birth to the King of the Throne of David, Ruler of the House of Jacob. That is a Political Leader of a specific Ethnic Group.

The Prophet Simeon (Luke chapter 1) said that Jesus would be a Light of Revelation for the Gentiles. At His Ascension Christ told the Apostles to teach the Gentiles the Doctrine of Penance for the remission of sins. In these two instances, no specific Sacraments are enjoined on the Gentiles. The Moral Teachings of Christ and the Doctrine of Penance would be a Revelation. The Gentiles would be morally and spiritually uplifted -- thats it.

However, the Holy Sacrament could give everybody a Taste of the Miraculous Christ. If only the Catholic Church did not take itself so seriously. They think it their job not to distribute the Sacrament, as much as to restrict and ration it. The Catholic Church should review its role. It should present the Moral Teachings of Christ as a Revelation to the Gentiles, and teach the Doctrine of Penance for the remission of Sins. And it should give the Holy Sacrament to anybody who can put on a clean shirt for Mass -- no questions asked.

Freak

December 20th, 2003, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by King David
Having been recently banned from the "Exclusively Christian" thread or forum, since, as a "Mormon", I am NOT considered to be a "Christian" by "them", I ask you -- WHAT IS A CHRISTIAN?

A Christian is someone who follows Christ. That simple.

Now, the question remains who is this Jesus?

The Bible tells us this Jesus is God. Do you believe this to be true?

Leo Volont

December 20th, 2003, 04:11 AM

Originally posted by Freak
A Christian is someone who follows Christ. That simple.

Now, the question remains who is this Jesus?

The Bible tells us this Jesus is God. Do you believe this to be true?

Someone who follows Christ. Fine. Saints Bernard and Francis were quite successful in following Christ. I think their peculiar successes arose from their unstinted following of the doctrines of penance and poverty.

The question of Who Jesus was only matters as a curiousity. Either He aids the Saints from Heaven, or God rewards the Saints for following the Teachings of Jesus whom He is willing to back up in this Way.

It is not necessary that Jesus be God... unless He is... but it is not necessary for anybody to BELIEVE it. The Saints of the other Religions only practice the Teachings, and often times do not even know they were simular to the Teachings of Jesus, and yet they benefit just the same. It is the Teachings. Not the Man, or God, or Whatever you want to call it.

Freak

December 20th, 2003, 04:17 AM

Originally posted by Leo Volont

It is not necessary that Jesus be God... unless He is... but it is not necessary for anybody to BELIEVE it. It is quite necessary, my friend, to believe Jesus is God, for only God can forgive your sins.

Btw, can one believe in any ole Jesus?

Tye Porter

December 20th, 2003, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by Freak
A Christian is someone who follows Christ. That simple.

Now, the question remains who is this Jesus?

The Bible tells us this Jesus is God. Do you believe this to be true?

Jesus is not the brother of satan.
Jesus is God, and man cannot become a god.
Jesus is an aspect of the Godhead, not seperate from it.
There are not three Gods.

SOTK

December 20th, 2003, 04:22 AM

Originally posted by Freak
A Christian is someone who follows Christ. That simple.

Now, the question remains who is this Jesus?

The Bible tells us this Jesus is God. Do you believe this to be true?

Freak,

Don't mind King David. He's just sore as is Mustard Seed about Christians calling them on their false doctrine and telling them that they are not Christians.

A Christian believes in the triune nature of God. Christians believe Jesus IS God and not just a God. Christians are monotheistic. Any religion or cult which is polytheistic is simply not Christian.

King David,

Do you believe Jesus Christ (the Son), God (the Father), and the Holy Spirit are One? Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate? Do you believe that Jesus is God?

If you answer honestly in accordance with the false doctrine of mormonism, your answers to my questions will be "No". Therefore, you are not Christian.

SOTK

Freak

December 20th, 2003, 04:28 AM

Tye Porter

December 20th, 2003, 04:38 AM

Originally posted by SOTK4ever
A Christian believes in the triune nature of God. Christians believe Jesus IS God and not just a God. Christians are monotheistic. Any religion or cult which is polytheistic is simply not Christian.

King David,

Do you believe Jesus Christ (the Son), God (the Father), and the Holy Spirit are One? Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate? Do you believe that Jesus is God?

If you answer honestly in accordance with the false doctrine of mormonism, your answers to my questions will be "No". Therefore, you are not Christian.

SOTK

:thumb:

Leo Volont

December 20th, 2003, 05:00 AM

Originally posted by Freak
It is quite necessary, my friend, to believe Jesus is God, for only God can forgive your sins.

Btw, can one believe in any ole Jesus?

Again, you do not make the connection between BELIEF and God Forgiving Sins. Why would it be necessary for anybody to BELIEVE. If God wants to forgive sins, then He will forgive sins whether anybody BELIEVES or not.

Your mistake is thinking that BELIEVING was made some magical pre-condition for forgiveness. paul propagated this notion as well as some of the Apostles. Why? That was their sincere guess at the time, I suppose. But Christ only told them to teach the Gentiles that Penance should be taught for the Remittance of Sin -- this is a Spiritual Law that would apply to anybody anywhere. Remorse and Atonement would wash away Sin. Muslims have exercised this Law. Hindus and Buddhists have enjoyed much success with it. How do we know they have been Forgiven their sins? Well, their Saints have experienced the Pure Bliss of Mystic Union with God. Only the Pure can be lifted that High. No Protestant has ever reached such a peak -- not even by believing Christ is God.

Tye Porter

December 20th, 2003, 05:07 AM

:nono:

King David

December 20th, 2003, 08:52 AM

Originally posted by SOTK4ever
Freak,

Don't mind King David. He's just sore as is Mustard Seed about Christians calling them on their false doctrine and telling them that they are not Christians.

A Christian believes in the triune nature of God. Christians believe Jesus IS God and not just a God. Christians are monotheistic. Any religion or cult which is polytheistic is simply not Christian.

King David,

Do you believe Jesus Christ (the Son), God (the Father), and the Holy Spirit are One? Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate? Do you believe that Jesus is God?

If you answer honestly in accordance with the false doctrine of mormonism, your answers to my questions will be "No". Therefore, you are not Christian.

SOTK

Interestingly enough, as ye have heretofore dealt with me, so would ye have dealt with Christ himself, for it was prophesied of him--

1 WHO hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

(Old Testament | Isaiah 53:1 - 3)

If BELIEVING is in and of itself so ALL IMPORTANT, why then was it said--

19 Thou believest that there is ONE GOD; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

(James 2:19)

So, ye devils, ye believe -- now then ye should surely tremble!

Is it not DOING which is MORE important, then, than merely BELIEVING? For the scripture canNOT be broken!

Also, ye call Jesus Lord and Master. Again, thou doest well! However, it is ALSO written--

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT HE THAT DOETH THE WILL OF MY FATHER WHICH IS IN HEAVEN.[/B]

(Matthew 7:21)

Ye feign yourselves "Christians". O, ye "whited walls" wearing "whited sheets and hoods", is Christianity truly the KKK?

Jesus taught--

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

(Matthew 25:40 - 46)

Ye agree with and congratulate each other. Is this not rather more like Pilate and Herod becoming friends, after their dastardly deed?

Jesus called himself the son of God, making himself thereby equal with God, and thought it not robbery to do so. If I, who confirms, that true disciples of Christ are heirs, yeah, JOINT-HEIRS with Christ, to INHERIT ALL THAT THE FATHER HATH- why say ye of me, 'Depart, for we cast thee out'?

Freak said-- "A Christian is someone who follows Christ. That simple.

Now, the question remains who is this Jesus?

The Bible tells us this Jesus is God. Do you believe this to be true?"

And I reply honestly, Jesus is God.

SOTK4ever inquired of me,

"King David,

Do you believe Jesus Christ (the Son), God (the Father), and the Holy Spirit are One? Do you believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate? Do you believe that Jesus is God?"

I believe they are ONE GOD. And I believe that Jesus of Nazareth was God incarnate. And I believe Jesus is God.

I ALSO believe that Jesus sits on the right hand or right side of God the Father (but is not "beside himself" there), and that he is in the express image of the Father (but is not his own father), that he (Jesus) did none other things than that which he (Jesus) saw his Father (Heavenly Father) do-- he (Jesus) lived on a planet in mortality, he grew from a baby to a boy to a man, he taught the gospel, he worked miracles among mortals while among them, he healed the sick, he raised the dead, he died, he self-resurrected, he now has a body of flesh and bones that can be touched and felt my mortal man, a body that can eat and drink tangible food such as fish and honeycomb. I believe that Jesus worked no 'hocus pocus', but that, as evidenced at his baptism, his Father (of whom he said later is ALSO our father, and His God, and OUR God) was in heaven and spoke from there, bearing witness of His Only Begotten in the flesh (Jesus), and that the Holy Ghost is the third personage of the Godhead, as evidenced by the fact that he descended from heaven and fell upon Jesus, as a dove would do, but which personage has NOT a body of flesh and bone, otherwise he could not dwell in man. Yes, these three are ONE GOD, for they all act in the unity that Jesus prayed to his father (and was not talking, therefore, merely to himself) that their disciples may be one as they are one -- not merging or melding into one entity or 'Nirvana'-like creature, as some have supposed, but as their disciples may be one in purpose, doctrine, and heart, so they (the Father and the Son) are one.

And, I believe, as taught in the Bible, that for a man (or woman) to be saved, he or she must be baptized as one who had authority, as did Aaron, and also so did John the Baptist, into the One CHURCH or KINGDOM OF GOD, which is NOT divided, for a House Divided, as Jesus said, will NOT stand. Nor is Christ divided, as Paul reminds us. And so must individuals of every nation, tongue, people, race, tribe, culture and background, or they cannot otherwise be saved in the kingdom of God -- for thereby are they born again!

I believe in the Bible, that states plainly and simply that man is of the race of God, having been formed by him (God) in His form and in His image and in His likeness. I believe in a God with a face, for did not Moses say that he spoke with God as one friend speaketh to another? Did not Jacob declare that he saw the face of God, and still lived? Is this not the God who is declared in the Bible as having eyes, a nose, a mouth, ears, hair, a neck, a body, arms, hands, legs, feet, bowels, kidneys (reins) and a heart? Did not Stephen declare that the Father and Son are two separate personages, for how could the Son be on the right hand of the Father, if they were not?

I believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and strive to do the works they did, as Christ commanded. I believe also that God is not a God of the dead, but of the living! I believe that he (God) cannot be silenced, nor will he be. And, since he (God) is the same yesterday, today, and forever, he will proceed to do a marvelous work and wonder among the children of men.

I believe that just as Joseph, whose life was sought after by his brethren, those who should have loved, accepted, and cherished him, but, like Christ, was sent on his long sojourn at the tender age of 17, so also I believe that God has raised up a Joseph in our day like unto Joseph of old. One who is true and faithful to the God of his fathers. One who is risen up, and become great, and is in second only to the Great King! One Joseph who has done more for the salvation of mankind than anyone, other than Jesus Christ. One who was not recognized for who he was by his brethren. One who was cast into prison without a cause. One who has brought out of the great King's stores, that which was set aside for years, to help bring the salvation of Israel.

A Joseph who also brought out that which was hidden and buried, that which his brethren should cherish. And he also brought out buried with their treasure, that thing, made of silver, "whereby indeed he divineth," yeah, translates! And is it not marvelous in your eyes?

Is this not Joseph, yeah, Joseph who indeed was and is a 'fruitful bough', yeah, even one by a well, one that containeth the 'waters of everlasting life'? Have not his "branches" run over the "wall", the barriers, whether the oceans, or generations, or the great barrier of death, into the world of spirits beyond the veil of death? Was it not from this hole in the ground that was brought out that which would give Israel to drink from? Is this not Joseph whom those archers, with pointed barbs, have sorely grieved, yeah, even killed? Indeed, they shot at him, and hated him.

But his bow, even that silver bow, the Urim and Thummim, abode in strength, and was the means by which he translated The Book of Mormon!?! And the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob, helping him to translate that ancient record, build his (God's) kingdom anew upon the earth, and restore and revive Israel!?! ThePhy, if you are there and read this, is this NOT the "stone" of Israel?

Did not the God of his fathers help him? Did not also the Almighty, the great Jehovah, yeah, Jesus Christ, bless him (Joseph) with blessings of heaven above. Were not the heavens opened to him (Joseph) bounteously, from where he received revelation upon revelation from God? Was this Joseph not blessed with that which lieth under, even the Gold Plates, from whence The Book of Mormon came forth? Has not the milk of God's mercy and the seed come forth from the womb, thousands, yeah, tens of thousands, yeah, thousands of thousands have be born unto Christ, as the result of his (this Joseph's) work, which God called him (Joseph) to.

Have not the blessings of his father Jacob (which is Israel) prevailed above that of his brethren, unto the bounds of the everlasting hills (ever look at the 'everlasting ring' of mountains that extends the length of the Rocky Mountains, down through Central America, continuing in the Andes, up again and around the Mariana Trench in the Pacific Ocean back through the Aleutian Islands of Alaska, back to the Rocky Mountains -- are these not 'never-ending' or 'everlasting' hills? (where I reside, and where the headquarter's of The Church of Jesus Christ (of Latter-Day Saints) are found?

These blessings, even the blessings of the Holy Priesthood, bestowed from Christ by the hands of the resurrected John the Baptist, and later by the hands of the resurrected Peter, James, and translated John, upon the head of Joseph Smith are his possession forever, in heaven, "...where traitors and tyrants now fight him in vain". They are the crown upon the head of him that was separated from his brethren, yeah, he who was separated from life by those who have done unto one of the least of Christ's brethren. For he was and is esteemed to be the least, as was Christ.

He was and is a true Christian, for he, as Christ and the holy apostles and prophets of old did before him, sealed his testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work upon the earth with his own blood, at the ripe age of 38.

Yeah, I am a Christian. I believe that there is no other name given under heaven, than Christ's, by which man can be saved. I believe that whatsoever things ye would that men do to you, do ye even so to them.

I believe that Christ gave himself as a ransom, and was raised up on the cross, that he might draw all men to him. I believe that true followers of Christ will go, as he commanded, to every nation, kindred, tongue and people, baptizing them that truly believe, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which three personages are ONE GOD.

Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever He (Christ) hath commanded them.

Even so do I ever strive to do. God is my witness.

--KING DAVID

King David

December 20th, 2003, 09:26 AM

TOL folks,

I am taking at least a ONE WEEK vacation from this forum; and telling you here, lest anyone think I am ignoring them.

Mustard Seed, I believe, may be doing likewise, from what he told me.

Merry Christmas,

--KING DAVID

Aimiel

December 20th, 2003, 02:04 PM

Before you examine others, perhaps you need to look at yourself, being in the minority. You have to realize that in the multitude of counsellors there is safety. You defer all counsel, and listen to only one train of thought, and it is on a narrow path leading to destruction. Vanity is not wise, and preferring to keep from that which you wish to be acknowledged by (orthodox Christians) is even less wise.

Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; by which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: and that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: after that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

If you were His, His Words and His Works would be evident in your life, because He always confirms His Word. The lack of His Presence in the Mormon church, among others, is evident. Those who don't know God's Word are open to deception by just about anything.

smaller

December 20th, 2003, 02:39 PM

The word "christian" has THOUSANDS of meanings to MILLIONS of people.

AS SUCH it is a PAGAN TERM that is FILLED with CONFUSION and DAMNATION unto OTHERS.

There is NO BLESSING anywhere else BUT IN THE POSITION OF ISRAEL, meaning GOD PREVAILS.

Uriyah

December 20th, 2003, 05:22 PM

It is quite necessary, my friend, to believe Jesus is God, for only God can forgive your sins.

I am not aware of Jesus saying "I will forgive you your sins." Would you care to point out where Jesus says he will forgive you your sins in the Bible? If you are going to point to the places you think he forgave someone's sins, then I point to John 20:23 where he says others can forgive sins. My question is very simple and I shall repeat it once more: "Where does Jesus say 'I will forgive you your sins'"?

Leo Volont

December 20th, 2003, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by Uriyah
I am not aware of Jesus saying "I will forgive you your sins." Would you care to point out where Jesus says he will forgive you your sins in the Bible? If you are going to point to the places you think he forgave someone's sins, then I point to John 20:23 where he says others can forgive sins. My question is very simple and I shall repeat it once more: "Where does Jesus say 'I will forgive you your sins'"?

There were a few instances where Christ forgave sins. In one instance the Pharisees were very annoyed when Christ forgave the sins of a sick man. He asked if it were easier to forgive sins then it was to heal and then he healed the sick man. Then in another instance I believe Christ forgave the sins of the adulterous woman who they had been about to stone (the "Whoever has not sinned may throw the first stone" thing). He told her that her sins were forgiven and that she should go and sin no more.

From this everyone supposes that Christ forgives sins, and that if He would do it for a sick man and a whore, then He would certainly do it for an upstanding Protestant. However, the sickness of the sick man could have been seen as sufficient penance for his sins, and so Christ may have been only speaking a fact -- "Your sins are forgiven". Not that He, Christ, had anything to do with it, but that it was a simple observation that the man's sins were forgiven. The same may be said concerning the prostitute. her humiliation and terror at almost having lost her life ignominously may have been accounted enough penance to have cleared the 'books' on her -- that, in balance, her sins were forgiven. But she should sin no more, to keep it that way.

I can't think of an instance where Christ remitted the sins of someone who had not suffered.

Uriyah

December 20th, 2003, 09:08 PM

I have my doubts the way it is worded where Jesus forgives sins; I think there is a possibility it was changed to word it a little differently so preists can have people coming to them and asking for forgiveness of sins, but I am not too sure, so I hold a 50/50 position on if that is what Jesus actaully said in the NT concerning the forgiving sins issue.

OMEGA

December 21st, 2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by Freak
A Christian is someone who follows Christ. That simple.

Now, the question remains who is this Jesus?

The Bible tells us this Jesus is God. Do you believe this to be true?
--------------------------------------

SEE , FREAK IS IGNORANT OF THE SCRIPTURES .:thumb:

HE DOES NOT KNOW BECAUSE HE DOES NOT UNDERSTAND

THE SCRIPTURES.:thumb:
-------------------------------------------------

URIYAH

(Mat 9:2 KJV) And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.

(Mat 9:3 KJV) And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth.

(Mat 9:4 KJV) And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

(Mat 9:5 KJV) For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk?

Prisca

December 21st, 2003, 06:23 PM

King David,

I know you are taking some time off from ToL, but if you see this when you get back I'd like know:

How does one receive salvation?
Are there any "Christian" denominations that you feel are not really Christians?
If so, what are they?

Just picking your brain! Thanks!

JackRUS

December 21st, 2003, 08:44 PM

"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it
came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the
church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called
Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26

These are the people that your demon angel, Moroni, said were corrupted by lies. And since Joe Smith felt the need to start a new and different religion and he chose to believe a lying demon instead of the Bible, Mormons (LDS) are not Christians. And furthermore, Mormons are not considered to be Christians by the mainstream Christians who still hold to a completely different belief system than yours.

That is why you are not a Christian. But we would love to have leave that false system for ours and become a Christian by embracing the true Gospel and the true Jesus (2 Cor. 11:1-4; John 8:32).

Living4Him

December 21st, 2003, 08:52 PM

Originally posted by JackRUS
That is why you are not a Christian. But we would love to have leave that false system for ours and become a Christian by embracing the true Gospel and the true Jesus (2 Cor. 11:1-4; John 8:32).

Amen! We would welcome and love you as a true brother in the Lord.

Aimiel

December 22nd, 2003, 04:35 PM

Amen.

JackRUS

December 22nd, 2003, 08:40 PM

King David

December 27th, 2003, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by JackRUS
"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it
came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the
church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called
Christians first in Antioch." Acts 11:26

Correct.

These are the people that your demon angel, Moroni, said were corrupted by lies.

INcorrect. These were indeed Christians. Gradually, though, the Old World Church of Christ as a whole became corrupted from the "wolves" from within, as the apostles prophesied, according to the foreknowledge of God, that it would.

And since Joe Smith felt the need to start a new and different religion and he chose to believe a lying demon instead of the Bible, Mormons (LDS) are not Christians. And furthermore, Mormons are not considered to be Christians by the mainstream Christians who still hold to a completely different belief system than yours.

If "Christianity" is a club -- Who decides who is "Christian"? Christ or others?

Yes, and "4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For MANY shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; AND SHALL DECEIVE MANY.

(New Testament | Matthew 24:4 - 5) (emphasis added)

So, you are the MANY, so what? That only indicates that you are among the MANY who say, in essence, "I am Christ", and deceive MANY--that's all.

Truth is NEVER the product of consensus or majority decision, but the basis of whether something is so or not.

That is why you are not a Christian. But we would love to have leave that false system for ours and become a Christian by embracing the true Gospel and the true Jesus (2 Cor. 11:1-4; John 8:32).

I am sure you would. Thanks, but NO THANKS! I cannot do so, and will not do so, for I will not deny Christ! The "amens" indicate those, representative of the MANY who have been and choose to remain deceived.

I have pointed out elsewhere on this forum that Chist is NOT divided. And, also, that a House Divided shall SURELY FALL!

You agree largely in points of what you are opposed to, as did the pharisees, sadducees, and scribes. As Pilate and Herod became friends on the day they consented to the death of Jesus, whereas before there was enmity between them, so do ye in regards to the organization, doctrine, and members of the "Church of Jesus Christ." You oppose those who bring the truth of God, which ye deny, and say and stay with "the old", because, having tasted the old, you stay with that which ye are most comfortable with, saying, "...the old is better."

Let me remind you of this parable that the Savior spoke--

28 But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir: and went not.

31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

(New Testament | Matthew 21:28 - 31)

Which of these two sons was the "Christian"? Was it the one who, in essence, said, "I believe". Or, the other, that though he did not ascent to his father's desires at first, afterward, repented, and said nothing, but then did his father's will (obeyed), whereas he that ascented, did nothing (did not obey).

This is the question I pose to YOU!

Any responders on this?

--KING DAVID

Aimiel

December 27th, 2003, 08:51 PM

Neither, for we just aren't sure. It will be:

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

King David

December 29th, 2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by Aimiel
Neither, for we just aren't sure. It will be:

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

"Neither, for we just aren't sure???

So, When in doubt, throw them (all) out !?! (Wow, there's a wonderfully merciful 'rule of thumb')!!

It is CLEAR TO ME/US (LDS) who the REAL Christian/s is/are--

21 Not every one that SAITH unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven.

(New Testament | Matthew 7:21)

Your "we just aren't sure" sounds infinitesimally close to--

27 And they answered Jesus, and said, We cannot tell.

(New Testament | Matthew 21:27)

Furthermore, about the scripture you quoted, you know not of what it truly speaks.

--KING DAVID

Aimiel

December 29th, 2003, 04:10 PM

It's like this, only God knows whether or not someone is truly repentant and not playing at religion. If you don't know that, then you really are just as blind as your adherence to a cult would indicate, and maybe even more so.

King David

January 2nd, 2004, 09:27 PM

Originally posted by Aimiel
It's like this, only God knows whether or not someone is truly repentant and not playing at religion. If you don't know that, then you really are just as blind as your adherence to a cult would indicate, and maybe even more so.

If "cult" is defined, as it appears to be by 'traditional Christians' on this thread by those who are in either a non-Christian religion, or in a 'minority' church or sect, then my church (The Church of Jesus Christ) is, by that definition only, a 'cult'.

However, if 'cult' is defined by any church that is NOT God's (and how can more than ONE be, if God's church and Christ's are the same, and Christ is NOT divided?) -- then YOUR church, unless it is Christ's ONE and ONLY TRUE CHURCH, is a 'CULT'!

--KING DAVID

p.s. And, by the way you swing that 'club' over your head (readily calling the likes of my religion a 'cult'), I do not find that you follow what has become called the 'Golden Rule'. Hence, non-Christian is as non-Christian does, Aimiel.

Aimiel

January 2nd, 2004, 11:07 PM

Originally posted by King David
If "cult" is defined, as it appears to be by 'traditional Christians' on this thread by those who are in either a non-Christian religion, or in a 'minority' church or sect, then my church (The Church of Jesus Christ) is, by that definition only, a 'cult'.A 'cult' is:

A religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents;
A great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual fad.

I believe that both these definitions (from Webster) fit LDS cult-worshippers. The fact that Jesus is taught to be the brother of Lucifer, as well as the addition of very foolish writings to The Holy Scriptures, and the blind following of a thief, and calling him a prophet of God are just icing on the cake.However, if 'cult' is defined by any church that is NOT God's (and how can more than ONE be, if God's church and Christ's are the same, and Christ is NOT divided?) -- then YOUR church, unless it is Christ's ONE and ONLY TRUE CHURCH, is a 'CULT'!God has not ordained churches, He inhabits men, some of whom attend many different denominations. Satan also inhabits some, and they parade around pretending to be from God, saying that Jesus is The Anointed of The Lord.

For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. And, by the way you swing that 'club' over your head (readily calling the likes of my religion a 'cult'), I do not find that you follow what has become called the 'Golden Rule'. Hence, non-Christian is as non-Christian does, Aimiel. I'm sorry you feel that way, but I am trying to be as clear as I can. I am not just calling your religion a cult, I am also calling it heresy and lunacy. If I don't call your false-religion a cult, I will have to answer for it, for I serve The Lord, and don't just teach others that I do. I have fellowship with The One you profess to have 'knowledge' about.

GentlyGazingEye

January 3rd, 2004, 01:41 AM

As a totally random bit of imput here; if you worship a green three-headed Goddess, you're not a Christian. You're probably not a Christian either if you think of God as having feminine attributes at all; at most you're a very heretical one to think that. Afterall it only makes sense that God is male; but if you say he has a penis you get banned on a Christian forum for saying a naughty word. Because ya know, words really can jump up off of the screen and go postal on you.

God_Is_Truth

January 3rd, 2004, 02:24 AM

i would define a christian as one who follows the true Jesus Christ as displayed through the NT who claimed to be God, did many miracles, called all peoples to repentence, died for our sins and rose again on the third day.

i think it is critical that the Jesus one follows is the one displayed in the bible. i may have a pet bird named Jesus whom i follow day in and day out but can that bird save me of my sins? of course not. it's a bird.

now this doesn't mean if i am mistaken about one single thing about Jesus then i have a false Jesus, but if i claim to have a Jesus other than the one presented clearly in the bible( claimed to be God, provided salvation etc.) with major differences then i would have a false one who can't save me, kinda like the pet bird.

a false Jesus can't save you. only a Jesus who is uncreated, God in flesh and who preached belief and repentence as a means of salvation through his work on the cross can save us from our sins.

GentlyGazingEye

January 3rd, 2004, 09:43 AM

And we all know that Christians are actually small goldfish. :)

BillyBob

January 3rd, 2004, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
i would define a Christian as one who follows the true Jesus Christ as displayed through the NT who claimed to be God, did many miracles, called all peoples to repentance, died for our sins and rose again on the third day.

Billy;
What if the Jesus portrayed in the NT is not an accurate depiction? Or, what if the interpretation of the NT that you have been told at church is wholly fallacious, designed for political reasons? [ 'Virgin Birth' was quite common in those days. Buddha and Alexander the Great were also born of virgins.]

i think it is critical that the Jesus one follows is the one displayed in the bible.

Billy;
What if the Jesus displayed in the Bible is a deliberate exaggeration? Would you rather pretend that he was someone other than who he really was just because you are used to thinking of him that way?

now this doesn't mean if i am mistaken about one single thing about Jesus then i have a false Jesus, but if i claim to have a Jesus other than the one presented clearly in the bible( claimed to be God, provided salvation etc.) with major differences then i would have a false one who can't save me.

Billy;
That depends on your definition of salvation.

a false Jesus can't save you. only a Jesus who is uncreated, God in flesh and who preached belief and repentance as a means of salvation through his work on the cross can save us from our sins.

Billy;
What if Jesus wasn't God? What happens then? Didn't God say that we are to have no other Gods before Him? If Jesus wasn't God, what do you think is going to happen to all Christians? Did Jesus pray to himself?????? :think:

[I bet the Jews think about this from time to time] :chuckle:

GentlyGazingEye

January 3rd, 2004, 01:38 PM

Billy:
I have those same thoughts a lot. What if Satan actually wrote the Bible, and claimed to be God all this time and on and on. It's a bit of a bother, and part of the reason I'm no longer bothering myself with monotheism.

Berean Todd

January 3rd, 2004, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by BillyBob
Billy;
What if the Jesus displayed in the Bible is a deliberate exaggeration? Would you rather pretend that he was someone other than who he really was just because you are used to thinking of him that way?

BB, you know I really thought that the whole "Is BB a Christian?" thread was ridiculous, and as such avoided it, because I didn't want to just attack you. But if you really believe that tripe you said above, then perhaps it wasn't too far off of the truth.

BillyBob

January 3rd, 2004, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Berean Todd
BB, you know I really thought that the whole "Is BB a Christian?" thread was ridiculous, and as such avoided it, because I didn't want to just attack you. But if you really believe that tripe you said above, then perhaps it wasn't too far off of the truth.

Did you happen to notice all the question marks after each sentence??????????

Why are people so afraid to question their beliefs??

How will you ever be sure you are thinking and believing properly if you cannot ask hard questions about things of such importance??

If I'm gonna believe something, I want some substantial evidence for it!!

Living4Him

January 3rd, 2004, 02:49 PM

Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.

drbrumley

January 3rd, 2004, 02:54 PM

From BillyBob
If I'm gonna believe something, I want some substantial evidence for it!!

OK, not attacking, but what substancial evidence do you have to beleive in Jesus?

BTW, I do agree with that statement.

P.S. I will see your response after Baltimore beats Tennessee.

Behira

January 3rd, 2004, 03:00 PM

The name Christian first used in Acts was used by pagans to describe;Notzrim. They saw how the believers touched with the hands and annointed people with oil. That was a pagan's version. G0d has always had a name for His Holy Nation - Israel. Not Christian

GentlyGazingEye

January 3rd, 2004, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Behira
The name Christian first used in Acts was used by pagans to describe;Notzrim. They saw how the believers touched with the hands and annointed people with oil. That was a pagan's version. G0d has always had a name for His Holy Nation - Israel. Not Christian
So even the name Christian is a rip-off from something some pagans said? Nice nice.

Behira

January 3rd, 2004, 03:06 PM

However, if 'cult' is defined by any church that is NOT God's (and how can more than ONE be, if God's church and Christ's are the same, and Christ is NOT divided?) -- then YOUR church, unless it is Christ's ONE and ONLY TRUE CHURCH, is a 'CULT'!

Jesus attended synagogue and the temple; not the Roman idea of "church" . Have you asked Him to define CULT? What is the origin of the word church, cult? Culture? is part of it?

GentlyGazingEye

January 3rd, 2004, 03:12 PM

Words of any type come from people.

GentlyGazingEye

January 3rd, 2004, 03:12 PM

Wait does that mean if I follow a religion that does not have any sort of church service or massing of people, then I am not in a cult?

OMEGA

January 3rd, 2004, 03:27 PM

KING DAVID said:

Which of these two sons was the "Christian"? Was it the one who, in essence, said, "I believe". Or, the other, that though he did not ascent to his father's desires at first, afterward, repented, and said nothing, but then did his father's will (obeyed), whereas he that ascented, did nothing (did not obey).

This is the question I pose to YOU!

Any responders on this?
----------------------------------------------

The Real Question is :

Do you believe that JESUS is the Messiah, the Christ

or just somebodies brother ?

-----------------------------------------------
(Mat 16:16 KJV) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

(Acts 4:12 KJV) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

--:angel: --:thumb:

Living4Him

January 3rd, 2004, 03:34 PM

Gods temple is not made by hands. Don't you know that we worship God in Spirit and in Truth. Do you not know that we are the temple of God.

Leo Volont

January 3rd, 2004, 04:02 PM

The term 'christian' was first applied to paul and Barnabus's gentiles. When Jesus was still in charge, it was Messianic Judaism.

Christ often spoke of the Gentiles as though they were only dogs. Yes, Christ, in the 40 Days after the Resurrection indicated that the Gentiles should be accepted into the New Dispensation of Judaism, but certainly not that they should take over and have the Judaic core murdered off.

What were the drawbacks of the Gentile Usurpation. First thing that suffered was Doctrine. Hacked off from the Vine, The Gentile Church lost a sense of God the Father, and, in Greek Fashion, made a God out of the Messiah. The Jewish Messiah was turned into another Greek Hercules.

When carefully read, the Doctrine of the Trinity does pass Theological muster -- expressing a Superiority in God the Father; however, when taken at face value it seems a Doctrine of Three Equal Gods, which is abominably offensive to any and all Monotheists. It seems to me that had Theology been left in the hands of the Messianic Jews, we would have had a simular integration of the Messiah and the Spirit into Monotheistic Thought, but without the appearance of contradiction and alienation which the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity bluntly and stupidly conveys in its appearance.

But, despite usurping the Sacraments unlawfully, The Catholic Church has, from the beginning, enjoyed the Patronage and Protection of Our Lady the Blessed Virgin, whom Christ delegated into this Role. Who knows, had the Church stayed within the context of Messianic Judaism, maybe Christ Himself would have taken a hand's on attitude and it would have been Him appearing again and again and again. But as it worked out, it has been Our Lady who has come to us with Providential Care and Divine Revelation.

It is odd we call ourselves Christians when it isn't Christ who appears to us, but Mary. Shouldn't we call ourselves Marians. At least until that time when we return the Sacraments to Jerusalem and the Jewish People, from whence we stole them, and then perhaps Christ would chose to appear again. Then we could be Christians -- if such a term would be acceptable to those who would probably rather call Him the Messiah. I suppose they might ask us to apply for conversion to Messianic Judaism, and we would call ourselves Jews. No we would not use paul's insult and call ourselves 'the circumcized' -- Christian sensitivity has been blunted by too much reading of paul and they no longer comprehend that it is coarse and profane to refer to people by the condition of their genitalia.

BillyBob

January 3rd, 2004, 05:50 PM

drbrumley;
OK, not attacking, but what substantial evidence do you have to believe in Jesus?

Billy;
That is a tough one, Doc. I thought about this question as I wrote my post. I have very little evidence, actually. It becomes an issue of faith at some point. However, as I said, I am careful where I place my faith and because of that, my faith probably isn't nearly what it could be or nearly comparable to the faith of many others. I have to work with what I have. I happen to have query and skepticism as part of my nature. I think about what Paul said when telling Christians to remain as they are when they come to know Christ. [Don't ask me to find it, I'm guessing Romans]

Doc;
BTW, I do agree with that statement.

Billy;
You're the first one today!!!!

Doc;
P.S. I will see your response after Baltimore beats Tennessee.

Billy;
:mad:

BillyBob

January 3rd, 2004, 09:16 PM

Helloooooooo..........is this thing on..........???????

test .....test........ test........

Go Titans!!!!!!!!!!!

BillyBob

January 3rd, 2004, 09:16 PM

:bannana:

God_Is_Truth

January 4th, 2004, 01:41 AM

Billy;
What if the Jesus portrayed in the NT is not an accurate depiction? Or, what if the interpretation of the NT that you have been told at church is wholly fallacious, designed for political reasons? [ 'Virgin Birth' was quite common in those days. Buddha and Alexander the Great were also born of virgins.]

these are things that one can be wrong about and still have the true Jesus. there are a few things that are essential and to get wrong would mean a different Jesus. for example, the deity of Christ and the resurrection.

Billy;
What if the Jesus displayed in the Bible is a deliberate exaggeration? Would you rather pretend that he was someone other than who he really was just because you are used to thinking of him that way?

it depends what things were exaggerated. i would say that the deity of Christ and the resurrection, if they are exaggerations then our faith is in vain and we are really in trouble.

Billy;
That depends on your definition of salvation.

how do you define it?

Billy;
What if Jesus wasn't God? What happens then? Didn't God say that we are to have no other Gods before Him? If Jesus wasn't God, what do you think is going to happen to all Christians? Did Jesus pray to himself??????

again, if Jesus isn't God then he can't atone for our sins or forgive them. are you a trinitarian?

King David

January 4th, 2004, 10:24 AM

Oh great, now THIS thread has become a "look at me, I'm Billy Bob", with others here now debating if HE is a Christian!

Folks, this was suppose to be a DEFINITIONAL thing, NOT a *PERSONAL one!

--KING DAVID

*Unless you consider "fingering" or "judging" to be "definitional".

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 03:41 PM

This thread isn't about me. I asked some questions which were topical and people responded. Welcome to the internet.

Poly

January 4th, 2004, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by BillyBob
I think about what Paul said when telling Christians to remain as they are when they come to know Christ.

I see the interpretation you're giving this and happen to disagree. But that's not really what I'm curious over at the moment. You happen to agree with what you think Paul means in this part of scripture. If this be true then why don't you take note of everything that Paul says? And if you think that Paul was a man who merely got some things correct then how can you reference something he said to help make your case or as a reasoning for ones to "remain as they are" when he could have just been full of it?

Please don't take this as hostile and if you've covered this elsewhere you can just direct me there.

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 04:43 PM

Poly;
I see the interpretation you're giving this and happen to disagree.

Billy;
I didn't expect anybody to agree with me.

Poly;
But that's not really what I'm curious over at the moment. You happen to agree with what you think Paul means in this part of scripture. If this be true then why don't you take note of everything that Paul says?

Billy;
I do. The Epistles are my favorite books in the Bible.

Poly;
And if you think that Paul was a man who merely got some things correct then how can you reference something he said to help make your case or as a reasoning for ones to "remain as they are" when he could have just been full of it?

Billy;
I only did so because the person I was debating obviously would have recognized my point. It wouldn't be much good referring to Paul if the person I am talking to never read any of his 'letters'.

Paul mentioned that women should wear hats in church, but I rarely see hats among the sea of 'Titans' jerseys when I go to church. I wonder why that is?

Poly

January 4th, 2004, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by BillyBob

I do. The Epistles are my favorite books in the Bible.

What about the parts of the epistles that talk about not letting your love by hypocritical by not exposing wickedness?

Originally posted by BillyBob
Paul mentioned that women should wear hats in church, but I rarely see hats among the sea of 'Titans' jerseys when I go to church. I wonder why that is? [/B]
For the sake of arguement, let's say women should be covering their head in church. The fact that most don't today is a good enough reason to overlook some of the important issues such as the one mentioned above?

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 08:21 PM

Poly;
What about the parts of the epistles that talk about not letting your love be hypocritical by not exposing wickedness?

Billy;
Who is exposing wickedness?

Poly;
For the sake of arguement, let's say women should be covering their head in church. The fact that most don't today is a good enough reason to overlook some of the important issues such as the one mentioned above?

Billy;
I didn't say that. I was demonstrating that even Bible Thumping Literalists don't always agree with everything written in the Bible. Or at least they interpret it the way they see fit, which is exactly what I do but have been branded a heretic. Which is a compliment, I might add.

Berean Todd

January 4th, 2004, 09:40 PM

Originally posted by BillyBob
Billy;
I didn't say that. I was demonstrating that even Bible Thumping Literalists don't always agree with everything written in the Bible. Or at least they interpret it the way they see fit, which is exactly what I do but have been branded a heretic.

Wrong, you don't just "interpret it however you see fit", at least not if you want to "rightly divide the Word." People just doing "what they see fit" is what leads to terrible doctrine and all sorts of false teaching.

First you have to look at the passage you are studying in context, because you don't want to try and make a passage say something that it wasn't meant to say. The first step is to find out what the original author meant, in context, to the original audience.

Once you have that, you can then pull out your 'timeless truth', this is the theology, it is the point of the passage that is true for anyone, anywhere, at any time in history. From there you apply the passage, you take that theological truth and you apply it to whatever cultural setting you are in/dealing with, and apply it so that it is useful to our lives.

But then, you would have to actually believe there to be some value in scripture before you could get to the point of caring enough to do all of that work, and since you seem to do nothing but minimize scripture, and question the Word, I'm not sure that you're all that interested in learning to properly interpret scripture.

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 10:20 PM

Berean Todd
Wrong, you don't just "interpret it however you see fit", at least not if you want to "rightly divide the Word." People just doing "what they see fit" is what leads to terrible doctrine and all sorts of false teaching.

Billy;
Yes, TOL is filled with it. [It isn't TOL's fault of course, TOL just seems to attract subscribers of false doctrine]. :Tye:

Rightly divide the Word??? :darwinsm:
What you really mean is that I should interpret scripture the same as you do. :nono:

BT;
First you have to look at the passage you are studying in context, because you don't want to try and make a passage say something that it wasn't meant to say. The first step is to find out what the original author meant, in context, to the original audience.

Billy;
Sure, but you may be completely wrong about your conclusions. I wonder why, if the Bible is the inerrant Word of God, that there is so much confusion about interpretation??????

Answer: It was written by men!

BT;
Once you have that, you can then pull out your 'timeless truth', this is the theology, it is the point of the passage that is true for anyone, anywhere, at any time in history. From there you apply the passage, you take that theological truth and you apply it to whatever cultural setting you are in/dealing with, and apply it so that it is useful to our lives.

Billy;
In other words, believe whatever the heck you want based on any of a million possible interpretations.

BT;
But then, you would have to actually believe there to be some value in scripture before you could get to the point of caring enough to do all of that work, and since you seem to do nothing but minimize scripture, and question the Word, I'm not sure that you're all that interested in learning to properly interpret scripture.

Billy;
See, another example of false witness. Shame on you, BT for suggesting that all I do is minimize scripture. Besides, any rational person should question everything. I suppose you expect me to suddenly conform to your interpretation of scripture??? I suppose you actually believe that your interpretation of scripture is 'proper' and everybody elses is wrong? No thanks, I do not need you to interpret scripture for me. Your interpretation is a lie from the pit of Hell. My heart is filled with sorrow for you, but it isn't too late! I pray that God will reveal the truth to you soon.

jesusreligion

January 4th, 2004, 10:52 PM

Recently, I spoke the truth of hell not being eternal to a person bound by traditional christian beliefs. This led to this person's church elders contacting me and basically telling me they love me, but I am no longer welcome in their church building. No problem. I would rather be outside religious walls than in them, anyway. But, when discussing this with my friend Jay, he pointed out something very interesting to me. Jay made the point that all one has to attack is the false doctrine of an eternal hell, and the religious feel threatened in all their beliefs. And truly, all their beliefs are threatened if they cease to believe in an eternal hell. Why? As Jay so wisely pointed out, their entire traditional christian doctrines are founded on this false teaching which envokes fear. It is fear of not pleasing God and suffering for an eternity. Hence, their entire teachings are fear-based and not of love. Fear is not of God, but man-made. God is love.

Now, all I pointed out to this person who is bound by religion, was that the word "hell" is not in their Bible (in the original greek or hebrew), and neither are the words "forever" and "eternal." The word mis-translated "forever" or "eternal" is the greek word "aion," which means for a set period of time - meaning it has an end. The words mis-translated as "hell" mean grave (sheol and hades) or a trash dump outside of Jerusalem (gehenna).

Why was I such a threat to the whole church that the elders would meet and then call me? Was it out of love for me, believing me to be lost? No, it was all motivated by fear - fear of losing control of their club (church) in the name of Christ. If they loved like they say they do, then they would show it in action. Instead they showed they are walking in fear (afraid of me) by telling me I am no longer welcome to visit them. Closed minds are always bound closed by fear.

Here is a simple thought to consider:

Since God is all-knowing (omniscient) and all-powerful (omnipotent), then why wouldn't He simply create those who He knew would make the choices He preferred and therefore not have to destroy any for making the choices He didn't prefer? Otherwise, we have a blood-thirsty God who is evil, if He created people whom he already foreknew He would have to destroy because of bad choices. God would make the choice to destroy maliciously when there was no need to create that which had to be destroyed! If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, He should have easily been able to create those whom He desired and save us all from ever existing and facing wrath, if we make wrong choices. Again, religion doesn't make any sense when you think it through logically.

I believe God foreknew everyone as stated in the bible:

"For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son..." Romans 11:2

"God did not cast away His people whom He foreknew."
Romans 11:2

If we are eternal beings, then we have always been (in God). Therefore, we will always be. Anything that has a beginning, must have an end. You cannot create eternal from the temporal. God will save all.

From a poem entitled, "A Ghost Speaks," by Gloria Ladd:

"Your joy is your heaven, your sorrows your hell."JesusReligion.Com (http://www.jesusreligion.com)

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 11:02 PM

Nice!

jesusreligion

January 4th, 2004, 11:03 PM

Thanks, Billy! Didn't expect to get a positive response!:jump:

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 11:05 PM

Don't expect many. :chuckle:

jesusreligion

January 4th, 2004, 11:06 PM

Why? I thought this was full of christian people who are polite and loving??? :doh:

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 11:09 PM

JR;
Since God is all-knowing (omniscient) and all-powerful (omnipotent), then why wouldn't He simply create those who He knew would make the choices He preferred and therefore not have to destroy any for making the choices He didn't prefer?

Billy;
Yes. It seems as if he deliberately created people who were destined to Hell from the day they were born, especially if you agree with predestination. If that is the case, God is an evil sadist!

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 11:10 PM

Originally posted by jesusreligion
Why? I thought this was full of christian people who are polite and loving??? :doh:

:darwinsm: You'll see!!!!

jesusreligion

January 4th, 2004, 11:12 PM

Why are you so bent on scripture???

I mean...I must ask you, "Why can't we just trust the "Holy Spirit" or "God" to teach and lead His people? Are we afraid that God will mess things up? Are we afraid that He is not fit for leading? Can those who are looking within be misled by God? Is not God able to save and restore all? How can you tell us to trust a book to know God when you cannot trust God to lead His people by His spirit?!

Should I trust you, the bible or God Himself to speak to me?JesusReligion.Com (http://www.jesusreligion.com)

jesusreligion

January 4th, 2004, 11:16 PM

Good point, Billy Bob. You must be saying there is no eternal hell???

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 11:18 PM

I would like to hear a reasonable definition of Hell. Any ideas?

jesusreligion

January 4th, 2004, 11:21 PM

The mind of man trapped in mis-thinking. Plenty of people trapped in hell here on earth!

Religion is hell, also, to me. False ideas of who God is and who we are in relationship with Him.

jesusreligion

January 4th, 2004, 11:24 PM

Billy Bob:

Does your church know you do this? I mean they might want to stone you on Sunday!! You seem like a real heretic!

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 11:27 PM

Yep. I agree that religion is Hell. I see many who are trapped in it and don't realize it.

The sad thing is that they would not make that choice if they knew the truth about it. Unfortunately, they are happily being led to Hell like moths to a flame.

jesusreligion

January 4th, 2004, 11:29 PM

For all my Bible Thumpers:

The bible is supposedly God's perfect word (as taught by traditional christian doctrines). It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in His infinite wisdom, He has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the bible, as a means for avoiding the hell which He has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal His wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect men, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect men. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self-contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet, the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which He has equipped us. Surely, the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal His perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

I submit that traditional christian doctrines are in error because the theology does not make sense. Traditional ideas concerning God, the bible and hell are in error. I am not saying there is not a God; I am saying the typical ideas of who He is are way off base!

JesusReligion.Com (http://www.jesusreligion.com)

jesusreligion

January 4th, 2004, 11:31 PM

Billy Bob:

Nice post. Perhaps you and I will get along here.

I must head to bed, so I am out of here, tonight. I have given the religious minds here plenty to consider...goodnight John Boy...

jesusreligion

January 4th, 2004, 11:33 PM

Oh, look I got a star by my name!

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 11:34 PM

jesusreligion
Does your church know you do this?

Billy;
No. I have mentioned it to a few people but they don't seem interested.

jr;
I mean they might want to stone you on Sunday!!

Billy;
I dunno. My church isn't bogged down with religion. In fact, this was the topic of todays sermon. The phrase 'Lies from the Pit of Hell' was used more than once. Very liberating!!!!!!

jr;
You seem like a real heretic!

Billy;
Thank You!

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 11:35 PM

BillyBob

January 4th, 2004, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by jesusreligion
Billy Bob:

Nice post. Perhaps you and I will get along here.

I must head to bed, so I am out of here, tonight. I have given the religious minds here plenty to consider...goodnight John Boy...

Good night, Mary Ellen! :D

Sealeaf

January 4th, 2004, 11:50 PM

I would like to hear a reasonable definition of Hell. Any ideas?

God's scrap heap. God's dump. We are given a lifetime to make of ourselves things that are useful to God. If we refuse to do this then God will not make use of us. He will not tortur us, He will just leave us be. Without any connection to the devine energy source that He is, we will be cold, blind, hungry and powerless. Very like being endlessly buried alive in a grave. It is possible that there are scavengers proweling this dump, feeding on the helpless, powerless spirits.

BillyBob

January 5th, 2004, 08:42 AM

Oh. I thought Hell was some hot, sweaty place managed by a big red guy with horns and a tail. A place where all who do not agree with the 'Gospel of Tye' are certain to end up.

Sozo

January 5th, 2004, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by jesusreligion
For all my Bible Thumpers:

The bible is supposedly God's perfect word (as taught by traditional christian doctrines). It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in His infinite wisdom, He has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the bible, as a means for avoiding the hell which He has prepared for us. The perfect God has decided to reveal His wishes in this imperfect work, written in the imperfect language of imperfect men, translated, copied, interpreted, voted on, and related by imperfect men. No two men will ever agree what this perfect word of God is supposed to mean, since much of it is either self-contradictory, or obscured by enigmatic symbols. And yet, the perfect God expects us imperfect humans to understand this paradoxical riddle using the imperfect minds with which He has equipped us. Surely, the all-wise and all-powerful God would have known that it would have been better to reveal His perfect will directly to each of us, rather than to allow it to be debased and perverted by the imperfect language and botched interpretations of man.

I submit that traditional christian doctrines are in error because the theology does not make sense. Traditional ideas concerning God, the bible and hell are in error. I am not saying there is not a God; I am saying the typical ideas of who He is are way off base!

JesusReligion.Com (http://www.jesusreligion.com)

What hypocrisy!

The above statement suggest that we abandon our bibles, and the site provided by the link, suggests that we simply find truth through the "Spirit" alone.

However, the "Spirit" apparently has led the creators of that site to teach us what we should believe about God...

"Many today worship the man "Jesus" as God. But, I do not believe that was his message."

"Searching for the truth while waiting on the supposed "rapture," I received the spiritual revelation of the second coming of Christ (God and man as One) to be in us! My eyes were opened and I began having "ears to hear," when I started following spirit - not scripture, religion or church doctrines. Whether one follows Buddha, Islam, Jesus Christ or any other religion, still the truth will only be found within you!"

I'd comment on these, but I think they speak for themselves.

Zakath

January 5th, 2004, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by jesusreligion
Oh, look I got a star by my name! And a gold star, at that! :thumb:

Zakath

January 5th, 2004, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by Sozo
The above statement suggest that we abandon our bibles, and the site provided by the link, suggests that we simply find truth through the "Spirit" alone.What's the matter, Sozo. Isn't your "god" up to the challenge of having 6.3 billion people asking him for "the truth"? :chuckle:

:doh: Oh, I forgot. That might compete with the 30,000+ sects of Christianity plus all the other world religions.

:doh: I forgot again! You cannot put ten Christians, all claiming to be "led by the Spirit", together in a room and come up with a consistent explanation for almost anything.

If he is incapable of accurately enlightening people, just what is this "Spirit" good for, then? Babbling incoherently during religious services? Knocking people over during healing services? Is that what it's all about?

:darwinsm:

BillyBob

January 5th, 2004, 09:36 AM

Sozo;
The above statement suggest that we abandon our bibles, and the site provided by the link, suggests that we simply find truth through the "Spirit" alone.

Billy;
He is saying that the Bible is not the inerrant word of God. That much is quite clear to me and his examples are well presented. I thought we were all supposed to seek the Spirit and be guided by it?

Sozo;
However, the "Spirit" apparently has led the creators of that site to teach us what we should believe about God...

Billy;
He was sharing his thoughts, you are not obliged to follow his teachings any more than I am obliged to follow the 'Book of Tye'.

Sozo;
"Many today worship the man "Jesus" as God. But, I do not believe that was his message."

Billy;
It is worth consideration. What if Jesus wasn't who the NT portrayed him to be? Seeing how the Christian Faith is designed around this idea, it is certainly the most important question a Christian can ask. Of course, most 'Christians' are afraid of questions and even more afraid of the answers.

Sozo

January 5th, 2004, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by BillyBob
Sozo;
"Many today worship the man "Jesus" as God. But, I do not believe that was his message."

Billy;
It is worth consideration. What if Jesus wasn't who the NT portrayed him to be? Seeing how the Christian Faith is designed around this idea, it is certainly the most important question a Christian can ask. Of course, most 'Christians' are afraid of questions and even more afraid of the answers.

The above quote is not mine, but his.

What source do you suggest we use to establish truth?

Science? Shirley Maclaine?

Zakath

January 5th, 2004, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by Sozo
What source do you suggest we use to establish truth?

How about you, Sozo? What source do you suggest we use to establish truth?

Sozo

January 5th, 2004, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by Zakath
What's the matter, Sozo. Isn't your "god" up to the challenge of having 6.3 billion people asking him for "the truth"?

He has already provided the Truth in the person of Jesus Christ, of which the bible is a witness.That might compete with the 30,000+ sects of Christianity plus all the other world religions. They only exist because they do not accept the Truth.You cannot put ten Christians, all claiming to be "led by the Spirit", together in a room and come up with a consistent explanation for almost anything. I think we would all agree that you are an idiot. Heck, it would not even take Christians to recognize that.If he is incapable of accurately enlightening people, just what is this "Spirit" good for, then? He is capable of enlightening those who do not have their own agenda.Babbling incoherently during religious services? Knocking people over during healing services? Is that what it's all about? Only for those who have no faith, but rather need signs.

Sozo

January 5th, 2004, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Zakath
How about you, Sozo? What source do you suggest we use to establish truth?

The message of Christ presented in the bible and subsequent confirmation from the Spirit.

jesusreligion

January 5th, 2004, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Sozo
What hypocrisy!

The above statement suggest that we abandon our bibles, and the site provided by the link, suggests that we simply find truth through the "Spirit" alone.

SOZO: I am not suggesting, I am absolutely telling you to follow God's spirit and not a book! The book is not God...God speaks to your heart if you let him. However, to you, the bible has become your god, as you are misled by thinking that you have to follow it. Let me quote a bible passage for you that you are ignoring quite well:

"For it is those who are led by the Spirit of God who are the sons of God."

That passage does not say, "those who are led by the bible, preacher or local church."

Good day!

PS: What is God's Word to you? What does your bible say God's Word is? (Clue: The Word of God is not your bible!)

Zakath

January 5th, 2004, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by Sozo
The message of Christ presented in the bible and subsequent confirmation from the Spirit.
Which bible?
The Orthodox bible?
The Roman bible with 73 books?
The Hebrew bible with 38 books?
The Ethiopian bible with 81 books?
The Samaritan bible with 6 books?
The Codex Siniaticus (New Testament), the oldest known complete NT, which contains the Shepherd of Hermas and Barnabas?
The Codex Alexandrinus which included 1st & 2nd Clement?
Martin Luther's bible which removed James, Hebrews, Jude and Revelation from the text and placed them as appendices at the end of early Lutheran bibles? Or substituted the shorter Hebrew bible for the Septuagint version of the OT?
The Syriac bible which doesn't contain 2Peter, 2&3John, Jude, and Revelation?
The Armenian bible which contains 3rd & 4th Ezra?

Then, of course there are the hundreds and hundreds of different translations if one cannot read Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic.

Which one do you claim is The Bible?

BillyBob

January 5th, 2004, 10:17 AM

Sozo;
The above quote is not mine, but his.

Billy;
I know.

Sozo;
What source do you suggest we use to establish truth?

Billy;
It depends on what type of truth we are trying to establish.

Sozo;
Science?

Billy;
Science would be my first choice [my only choice] for establishing truths about the natural world.

Sozo;
Shirley Maclaine?

Billy;
If I wanted to establish the truths about second rate, has been actresses, perhaps.

Spiritual truths are much less easy to identify and establish, obviously. The easy way out is to adopt a religion and vehemently adhere to it's doctrine. The problem is that it may be false doctrine, so what do you have left? Most Christians I know would say that the Koran is false doctrine, yet a Billion people subscribe to it and adamantly decree it's validity.

jesusreligion

January 5th, 2004, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by Sozo
What hypocrisy!

The above statement suggest that we abandon our bibles, and the site provided by the link, suggests that we simply find truth through the "Spirit" alone.

However, the "Spirit" apparently has led the creators of that site to teach us what we should believe about God...

"Many today worship the man "Jesus" as God. But, I do not believe that was his message."

SOZO: You have missed Jesus' message. Who did Jesus tell us to worship, the Father or himself? Wait...you are going to tell me that Jesus said, "I and my Father are one." My reply in advance is, "yes, I believe Jesus said that." But I believe Jesus was saying that he was one in purpose with the Father...otherwise Jesus should have plainly stated, "fall down and worship me as God and I will give you eternal life. Then, build church buildings on every corner believing different things about me. Then, follow a book that is going to be assembled by men over the next three hundred years and called the bible." No, a religion has been created in Jesuss' name and it is a stench-filled fog of death!

Jesus' message was, "Come follow me." In other words do what I am doing to follow God. How simple. The kingdom of God is within you...if they say it is here...or there (in other words "outside of you"), do not follow them."

JesusReligion.Com (http://www.jesusreligion.com)

BillyBob

January 5th, 2004, 10:36 AM

Dude, you rock!

Sozo

January 5th, 2004, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by jesusreligion
SOZO: I am not suggesting, I am absolutely telling you to follow God's spirit and not a book! The book is not God...God speaks to your heart if you let him. However, to you, the bible has become your god, as you are misled by thinking that you have to follow it.

Well then, you are ignorant of what I believe and even more ignorant concerning the bible...

Here is what I know to be true concerning the Word of God:

Let's not confuse the Scriptures from the Word of God.

The Word of God is eternal (John 1), the Scriptures nor the bible, are not.

Now, the message of God is revealed to us in the holy Scriptures, and the New Testament gives us an account of the Word made flesh and the message of the gospel, that is contained in the Scriptures.

Romans 10: 17 literally is saying to us:

So faith comes by hearing the message concerning Christ.

Now, the Scriptures are where Jesus, Paul and the others turned to confirm that Jesus was the fulfillment of all that the Scriptures spoke of concerning Christ. The New Testament is written to affirm, confirm, and convince us that the Scriptures point to Jesus as the Christ and the message concerning Christ. They are reliable witnesses and commentators, but Jesus is the Word of God, not the bible. And the Scriptures reveal that to us.

1 Corinthians 2:13: 13: This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.

This speaks to the fact that the truth of the Scriptures were revealed to them through the Holy Spirit and has guided them into all truth regarding the message concerning Christ. This is why the New Testament is reliable.

It may be semantical, but I am just trying to present the true delineation of the Word of God, the Scriptures, and the Bible. They are often spoke of as the same thing, and they are not, even though they work together to bring us the message concerning Christ.

The Word should be exalted!
The Scriptures revered!
The Bible used!

When we read the New Testament, they proclaim the Scriptures and the Word is exalted!

Zakath

January 5th, 2004, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

Romans 10: 17 literally is saying to us:

So faith comes by hearing the message concerning Christ.
So then, literally, deaf people cannot be Christians?

Freak

January 5th, 2004, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

It may be semantical, but I am just trying to present the true delineation of the Word of God, the Scriptures, and the Bible. They are often spoke of as the same thing, and they are not, even though they work together to bring us the message concerning Christ.

The Word should be exalted!
The Scriptures revered!
The Bible used!

When we read the New Testament, they proclaim the Scriptures and the Word is exalted! [/B] Looks like you're playing semanitcal gymnastics.

Living4Him

January 5th, 2004, 11:46 AM

He who hates me hates My Father also.

And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.

He who does not love me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not mine but the Fathers who sent Me.

He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. And He who sees Me sees Him who sent Me

If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God;

If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also.

All should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not Honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him

Sozo

January 5th, 2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Zakath
So then, literally, deaf people cannot be Christians?

If you chose to make dumb statements one of your New Year resolutions, you're off to great start!

jesusreligion

January 5th, 2004, 11:59 AM

SoZo:

The word of God is the spirit of God as John 1 proves...not the bible or Jesus (Jesus was called "the word made flesh")...and now you have proven beyond a doubt with the following verse you posted and yet ignore:

1 Corinthians 2:13: 13: "This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words."

This same spirit of God will teach us spiritual truths in spiritual words, as well. It even tells you the spirit of God (who IS God - what could be better...a book or the spirit speaking to you?) IS the word of God....unless you are blinded by doctrine. But religion, which you are bound by, teaches that we cannot hear God for ourselves. Bunk!

You need to go back to bible college... It is a mute point arguing with those who have closed their minds. Jesus argued with the pharisees of his day and was stuck on a cross for it...

Zakath

January 5th, 2004, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by Sozo
If you chose to make dumb statements one of your New Year resolutions, you're off to great start! Hey, it's your bible, not mine. :D

BTW, how about answering the question...

Since "faith comes by hearing", can someone who cannot "hear the gospel" be saved?

Upon what do you base your opinion?

Freak

January 5th, 2004, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Zakath
Hey, it's your bible, not mine. :D

BTW, how about answering the question...

Since "faith comes by hearing", can someone who cannot "hear the gospel" be saved?

Upon what do you base your opinion? I believe Sozo is referring to the hearing in a spiritual sense just as we are told to taste the Lord, it's spiritual.

Sozo

January 5th, 2004, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by jesusreligion
SoZo:
You need to go back to bible college... It is a mute point arguing with those who have closed their minds.

I have never been to bible college, and it further proves your hypocrisy to suggest that I go there, when you claim that all we need is the Spirit.

Jesus argued with the pharisees of his day and was stuck on a cross for it...

Jesus gave His life, and no one took it.

Jesus argued with them, because they believed that salvation was found in their works, and not in God's.

Zakath

January 5th, 2004, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Sozo
I have never been to bible college...You know, somehow that comes across to those of us who have been. :chuckle:

Jesus gave His life, and no one took it.That's odd, Paul seems to disagree with you...

"You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus... " - I Thess. 2:14b-15a

... perhaps we have another case of biblical contradiction?

Sozo

January 5th, 2004, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Zakath
You know, somehow that comes across to those of us who have been. :chuckle:

That's odd, Paul seems to disagree with you...

"You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus... " - I Thess. 2:14b-15a

... perhaps we have another case of biblical contradiction?

If I jump out in front of a truck, it is true that the truck killed me, but the decision would be mine.

This is a good example of why you gave up on God, you could never really make sense of the simplicity of the gospel.

"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father."

Zakath

January 5th, 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by Sozo
If I jump out in front of a truck, it is true that the truck killed me, but the decision would be mine.And the driver would be charged with involuntary vehicular manslaughter until it could be proved that he was innocent.

Which "truck" did Jesus jump in front of? Do you have any idea how many other people irritated the Pharisees and got executed?

Probably not.

This is a good example of why you gave up on God, you could never really make sense of the simplicity of the gospel.Simple message for simple minds, eh Sozo? :chuckle:

This is a good example of why I left your faith, because it makes no sense that humans will be held accountable for something as internally contradictory and illogical is the eclectic mess that is modern Christianity.

"For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life that I may take it again. "No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father." [/B] Thank you for providing the conflicting scripture that also describes one of the other reasons I left...

I find religions based upon human sacrifice reprehensible.

LightSon

January 5th, 2004, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by Zakath

I find religions based upon human sacrifice reprehensible.

I wonder if Jesus takes your rejection of Him personally. Perhaps you will get an opportunity to explain to Jesus, face-to-face, why you find His sacrifice reprehensible. After all, He gave His life for you. The honorable thing would be to accept His gift in gratitude.

jesusreligion

January 5th, 2004, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Sozo
I have never been to bible college, and it further proves your hypocrisy to suggest that I go there, when you claim that all we need is the Spirit.

Uh, the bible college thing was a slam, not my recommendation...sorry for the confusion.

What I am saying is, if you are going to quote scripture, at least get it right. I see you ignored my main point in the last post because you do not have an answer...

JesusReligion.Com (http://www.jesusreligion.com)

BillyBob

January 5th, 2004, 02:00 PM

:box:

God_Is_Truth

January 5th, 2004, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by Zakath
So then, literally, deaf people cannot be Christians?

you can hear about something without "hearing" about it. by "hear" it means to understand/receive knowledge of.

Zakath

January 5th, 2004, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by LightSon
I wonder if Jesus takes your rejection of Him personally. Not likely, since he's been dead for almost twenty centuries.

:doh: That's right, you folks believe in reanimation of corpses too!

Perhaps you will get an opportunity to explain to Jesus, face-to-face, why you find His sacrifice reprehensible. No, I find YHWH's insistence on human sacrifice, and the fact that most Christians will not see it for what it is, reprehensible.

After all, He gave His life for you. The honorable thing would be to accept His gift in gratitude. I don't believe he did any such thing, so it would be unreasonable for me to act like he did.

jesusreligion

January 5th, 2004, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
you can hear about something without "hearing" about it. by "hear" it means to understand/receive knowledge of.

I agree with that statement God is Truth...no problem here...

Sozo

January 5th, 2004, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by jesusreligion

What I am saying is, if you are going to quote scripture, at least get it right.

Exactly what verse did I not quote correctly?

You have no idea what I believe, but I have seen your sight, and am fully aware of what you teach.

Poly

January 5th, 2004, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

you can hear about something without "hearing" about it. by "hear" it means to understand/receive knowledge of.
I can appreciate you and Freak giving him a response to his question but it certainly was not deserved in light of such a childish question. We are not required to give an answer to those who so blatently mock God.

BillyBob

January 5th, 2004, 04:16 PM

Who mocked God???

MEGIDDO

January 5th, 2004, 04:35 PM

I'll be poking my ugly face about here much in near future- Just saying hello and introducing myself- The name is Randy.....27 year old Catholic male (commence bashing.) I am a Grad student studying Theology- I'm looking this semester at the comparisons between the Catholic Crusades and current Islamic Jihad.

I would be happy to get any insight any of you may have.

Ohh, by the way, just cause I study theology doesn't imply I think I know more.....just have a lot of questions- I throw that bit of info out there to let you know a little of what I'm about.

God Bless

Poly

January 5th, 2004, 04:42 PM

Welcome MAGIDDO!

BillyBob

January 5th, 2004, 05:05 PM

Megiddo;
Ohh, by the way, just cause I study theology doesn't imply I think I know more

Billy;
It means you are probably more screwed up than most people here! :D

jesusreligion

January 5th, 2004, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

Exactly what verse did I not quote correctly?

You have no idea what I believe, but I have seen your sight, and am fully aware of what you teach.

I believe the verse I was speaking of was the Cor. passage which actually proved my point, not yours. (although you meant it otherwise when you posted it).

As far as my "site" you should come visit more often and have some of that religion undone in you. I do not want you to follow my lead...follow the spirit of God within you. That is the site's mission, for people to learn to follow God for themselves. Or can't God be trusted to lead people?

You do not know your adversary is religion. Therefore you have in a sense become an adversary of God by aligning yourself with it...find freedom for you think you have it, but do not; for your religion is based upon fear, not truth.

Farewell. I wish to no longer cast pearls before swine...

Those who have ears to hear, come visit...those who don't, let me miss you.

JesusReligion.Com (http://www.jesusreligion.com)

:wave: :wave:

BillyBob

January 5th, 2004, 05:13 PM

But you just got your 3rd gold star!!! :sigh:

Sozo

January 5th, 2004, 05:19 PM

Well, jesusreligion, like I said, you know nothing about what I believe, and you can come off your self-promoting high-horse, and stop preaching your own false religion.

The only swine around here are the trolls like you!

Delmar

January 5th, 2004, 05:30 PM

Originally posted by BillyBob

Yep. I agree that religion is Hell. I see many who are trapped in it and don't realize it.

The sad thing is that they would not make that choice if they knew the truth about it. Unfortunately, they are happily being led to Hell like moths to a flame.

I would say that God is into relashonship rather than religion. Having said that I still believe in Heaven and Hell.

brother Willi

January 5th, 2004, 06:45 PM

Matthew 5:43
"You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.'

Matthew 5:44
"But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

Matthew 5:45
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

Matthew 5:46
"For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?

Matthew 5:47
"If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Matthew 5:48
"Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

rfburnhertz

January 5th, 2004, 08:06 PM

Originally posted by jesusreligion I submit that traditional christian doctrines are in error because the theology does not make sense.

I assume then, that you dismiss everything that you do not understand, simply because you do not understand.

Aimiel

January 6th, 2004, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by jesusreligion
I wish to no longer cast pearls before swine...Did I miss something? I never saw any pearls. Neither do I see any swine, if this piglet truly has left.

King David

January 6th, 2004, 11:31 AM

This thread was begun by me asking the question, "What is a Christian?", since MS and myself were kicked out of the "Exclusively Christian" area of TOL as supposedly NOT being 'Christians' -- though we are members of The Church of Jesus Christ.

To date, I have NOT really seen any good (in my estimation) definition of a Christian.

And, Billy Bob aside, does anyone have ANY REALLY GOOD DEFINITION of a "Christian"?

--KING DAVID

Aimiel

January 6th, 2004, 11:38 AM

Jesus does.

brother Willi

January 6th, 2004, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by King David

This thread was begun by me asking the question, "What is a Christian?", since MS and myself were kicked out of the "Exclusively Christian" area of TOL as supposedly NOT being 'Christians' -- though we are members of The Church of Jesus Christ.

To date, I have NOT really seen any good (in my estimation) definition of a Christian.

And, Billy Bob aside, does anyone have ANY REALLY GOOD DEFINITION of a "Christian"?

--KING DAVID
may I give it a try?

IN A NUTSHELL

to me a Christian is a person who has read the Words Jesus gave us, does his very best to live their life by those Words, and accepts Jesus as
God
or
the only Son of God

I wonder if I am now banned from "Exclusively Christian" area of TOL

Living4Him

January 6th, 2004, 01:12 PM

A Christian is one who is born of the Spirit. A christian is only a christian because God is the one whom called them and reveals His Son to them. It is God's mercy and grace that makes one to know the truth and makes them free.

It is not who runs or wills but it is God's mercy that saves.

Anyone can have the name "christian" as a label but it is God who gives the power to be sons and daughters.

Living4Him

January 6th, 2004, 01:14 PM

Originally posted by brother Willi

may I give it a try?

IN A NUTSHELL

to me a Christian is a person who has read the Words Jesus gave us, does his very best to live their life by those Words, and accepts Jesus as
God
or
the only Son of God

I wonder if I am now banned from "Exclusively Christian" area of TOL

The only reason they were banned was because they deny who Christ is. You do not.

brother Willi

January 6th, 2004, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by Living4Him

The only reason they were banned was because they deny who Christ is. You do not.
what did they say?

brother Willi

January 6th, 2004, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Living4Him

Anyone can have the name "christian" as a label but it is God who gives the power to be sons and daughters.
:thumb:

Living4Him

January 6th, 2004, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by brother Willi

what did they say?

You really have to ask them because I am not quite sure exactly what they believe. But I know the Exclusively Christian forum is for those who believe in Christ's diety. I remember a few people being asked not to post on the forum who denied that Christ was fully God and fully man.

brother Willi

January 6th, 2004, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by Living4Him

You really have to ask them because I am not quite sure exactly what they believe. But I know the Exclusively Christian forum is for those who believe in Christ's diety. I remember a few people being asked not to post on the forum who denied that Christ was fully God and fully man.

OK:)

King David

January 6th, 2004, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by Living4Him

The only reason they were banned was because they deny who Christ is. You do not.

Pray tell HOW we DENY who Christ IS?

Christ is Jesus of Nazareth--the ONLY name under heaven by which man (woman or ANYONE) can be SAVED!

I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ.

I believe that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God the Father in the flesh, as the Bible clearly teaches. That Jesus was born of Mary, a virgin, of the line of David.

I believe that Jesus was crucified, entombed, and rose the third day (as the Jews then calculated three days), and self-resurrected (according to the power God the Father had given Him (Jesus)). That he appeared to Mary Magdalene, Peter, two disciples on the road to Emmaus, then 10 of his apostles; afterwards to Thomas; also he was seen of over 500 brethren of the Church.

Then, Jesus appeared to his apostles in Galilee, and taught them for about 40 days. And then ascended into heaven. He was seen in vision by Paul, some years afterward.

I believe in the same gospel taught in the Bible.

How say ye then that I have DENIED Jesus Christ?

Because I believe, again, as the Bible clearly shows, that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages, and yet have a unity of purpose and action that they are ONE GOD?

Because MY concept of the godhood differs from that most unBiblical one contrived by a council convened by a pagan Roman emperor, in a post-Biblical and extra-Biblical era?

Lightson wrote how though he is a baptist, the baptism of infants doesn't phase him. What tolerance for heresy. But for ME? NO TOLERANCE WHATSOEVER!!!

And you call THAT, CHRISTIANITY???

--KING DAVID

King David

January 6th, 2004, 02:00 PM

Living4Him

January 6th, 2004, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by King David

We believe that Christ was "fully man" and is "fully God". What's the problem?

--KING DAVID

David,

As I stated I did not know what you believed. I only stated what I seen happened on the Exclusively Christian forum. It is not my place to say to anyone they are or are not a born again believer. Thats not my job but the judge is God who searches the heart and mind of man. No one will stand before me to give an account of their life and beliefs. I am called to love my Father with all my heart, mind, soul, and strenght and to love my neighbor as myself and my enemies. Far be it from me to reject one who is a child of God. As we have done to the least of His little ones we have done it to Him. Christ in no way will cast out anyone who calls on His name.

brother Willi

January 6th, 2004, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by King David

Christ is Jesus of Nazareth--the ONLY name under heaven by which man (woman or ANYONE) can be SAVED!

I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ.

I believe that Jesus is the ONLY BEGOTTEN SON of God the Father in the flesh, as the Bible clearly teaches. That Jesus was born of Mary, a virgin, of the line of David.

I believe that Jesus was crucified, entombed, and rose the third day (as the Jews then calculated three days), and self-resurrected (according to the power God the Father had given Him (Jesus)). That he appeared to Mary Magdalene, Peter, two disciples on the road to Emmaus, then 10 of his apostles; afterwards to Thomas; also he was seen of over 500 brethren of the Church.

Then, Jesus appeared to his apostles in Galilee, and taught them for about 40 days. And then ascended into heaven. He was seen in vision by Paul, some years afterward.

I believe in the same gospel taught in the Bible.

--KING DAVID

sounds ok with me
:thumb:

or did i miss somethin?

jesusreligion

January 6th, 2004, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Sozo
The only swine around here are the trolls like you!

Sounds like Christ speaking through you to all of us...:chuckle:

jesusreligion

January 6th, 2004, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by rfburnhertz
I assume then, that you dismiss everything that you do not understand, simply because you do not understand.

You misunderstand my statement. I understand religion perfectly. I just do not subscribe to manmade doctrines to assume control over others, in the name of God. That is what does not make sense...

JesusReligion.Com (http://www.jesusreligion.com)

smothers

January 6th, 2004, 03:58 PM

A Christian is anyone who calls themselves a Christian.

jesusreligion

January 6th, 2004, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Aimiel

Did I miss something? I never saw any pearls.

You are correct. You neither "saw" nor "heard" any pearls because you are both blind and deaf. Pity.

LightSon

January 6th, 2004, 04:42 PM

The Smothers Principle: "A Christian is anyone who calls themselves a Christian."

:chuckle:

If I call myself a cheeseburger, am I a cheeseburger?

BillyBob

January 6th, 2004, 04:43 PM

Originally posted by smothers

A Christian is anyone who calls themselves a Christian.

I named my Dog 'Christian'. She's a cute little thing.

:dog:

smothers

January 6th, 2004, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by LightSon

"A Christian is anyone who calls themselves a Christian."

:chuckle:

If I call myself a cheeseburger, am I a cheeseburger?

You are missing the point. The definition of Christian is completely subjective. The definiton is different accross cultures and denominations.

BillyBob

January 6th, 2004, 04:50 PM

Hey Smothers, I thought you left TOL?

Living4Him

January 6th, 2004, 04:51 PM

The Lord God calls me His child.

LightSon

January 6th, 2004, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by smothers

You are missing the point. The definition of Christian is completely subjective. The definiton is different accross cultures and denominations.

Given your atheism, I understand your point.
Given that the Bible is true, a Christian is a person who has been regenerated by the power and will of God into the Body of Christ. From God's perspective, there is zero subjectivity about who is a Christian.

LightSon

January 6th, 2004, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by King David

I belong to The Church of Jesus Christ.

Hi KD,

I thought the name of your body is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". What was your motive in leaving off the suffix?

Let's just be clear. Given your statement:
Originally posted by King David
the Bible clearly shows, that God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages, and yet have a unity of purpose and action that they are ONE GOD?

When you say "ONE GOD", you mean something entirely different that what a trinitarian means. Is that correct?
Let's test it:

Do you, KD, believe that the Son of God has been God from all eternity past? Is Jesus a created being? Do you believe that he acheived "godhood" at some point in time after creation?

Originally posted by King David

Lightson wrote how though he is a baptist, the baptism of infants doesn't phase him. What tolerance for heresy. But for ME? NO TOLERANCE WHATSOEVER!!!

For the record, I would not go so far as to say it "doesn't phase" me. I do not agree with infant baptism. But such a doctrinal error won't lead me to castigate a brother.

One Eyed Jack

January 6th, 2004, 04:57 PM

Originally posted by BillyBob

I named my Dog 'Christian'. She's a cute little thing.

:dog:

I once had a dog named 'Dog.'

Hey Smothers, I thought you left TOL?

It's a new year.

smothers

January 6th, 2004, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by LightSon

Given that the Bible is true,

...every word? No contradictions? No scientific fallacies?

a Christian is a person who has been regenerated by the power and will of God into the Body of Christ.

What does that mean?

From God's perspective, there is zero subjectivity about who is a Christian.

I'm sure Allah could say the same thing about Muslims.

King David

January 6th, 2004, 05:06 PM

King David

January 6th, 2004, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

I once had a dog named 'Dog.'

It's a new year.

Then, OEJ, you call her 'Christian' then? (Proof positive that 'Christianity' has truly gone to the DOGS)!!!

--KING DAVID

p.s. Is SHE saved, then?

smothers

January 6th, 2004, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by King David

He that is not for us is against us.

--KING DAVID

...or doesn't take you serioulsy enough to have an opinion.

LightSon

January 6th, 2004, 05:18 PM

Originally posted by smothers
..every word? No contradictions? No scientific fallacies?

It is my conviction that the Bible is true, to include every word with neither internal contradiction or contradiction with reality. The science facet is entrenched with atheistic philosophy and theoretical presuppositions. In short, the term is poorly defined for this conversation. Consequently, I swapped in the less ambiguous word "reality".
Originally posted by LightSon
a Christian is a person who has been regenerated by the power and will of God into the Body of Christ.

Originally posted by smothers
What does that mean?

That was my understanding of the Bible's usage of the term "Christian". We (all humanity) have a choice to make which plays a role in one becoming a Christian in fact. But becoming a Christian doesn't happen at our behest. A Christian is one who has been ontologically reborn as a new creature. We are a metaphysical reality, born of God to accomplish a number of His assignments.

I realize "being a Christian" has many pedestrian or colloquial applications. Setting those aside, I'm speaking from a Biblical viewpoint exclusively. I hold many world-view positions and philosophies which might be construed to make me a Christian. My views don't make me a Christian; God does. The fact is, I hold my views as byproduct of having been born of God.

Originally posted by LightSon
From God's perspective, there is zero subjectivity about who is a Christian.

Originally posted by smothers
I'm sure Allah could say the same thing about Muslims.

That may be true. However, I'm under no obligation to defend a view that I judge to be false, despite the fact that it bears similarities to my view. Let the Muslims defend their god.

King David

January 6th, 2004, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by LightSon

Hi KD,

I thought the name of your body is "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints". What was your motive in leaving off the suffix?

Let's just be clear. Given your statement:

It is. It is a name that Jesus Christ himself gave his church. And, the "Latter-Day Saints" is descriptive in that it shows that he restored the church he (Jesus) established during his mortal ministry.

Hence, either is correct. I am a 'saint', meaning, one who has been or will be 'cleansed by the purifying power of the Holy Ghost, after or as a part of 'baptism', to be sure (baptism IS BOTH by WATER and by FIRE, you know)!. Since I live in the "latter days", such as Job spoke of, as also did the ancient apostles.

When you say "ONE GOD", you mean something entirely different that what a trinitarian means. Is that correct?

If we use the 'Shamrock' analogy, probably. The Father is "in" the Son, but is NOT the son. The Son is "in" the Father, but is the Father IN THAT HE SUBJECTS HIS WILL TO THAT OF THE FATHER'S, ACCOMPLISHING HIS FATHER'S WORK, AND WE ARE SPIRITUALLY BEGOTTEN SONS & DAUGHTERS OF JESUS CHRIST, AND HENCE HE IS OUR FATHER (JESUS IS). However, Jesus is NOT the Father of our Spirits -- that is, as He (Jesus) implicitly alluded to, and thereby explained to Mary Magdalene--

...Go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

(New Testament | John 20:17)

If God is Jesus' Father, how can he (Jesus) BE his own Father? And, as Jesus HIMSELF pointed out, HIS Father is ALSO OUR FATHER, hence, the Father of BOTH his (Jesus') body AND spirit is ALSO the Father of OUR spirits! Jesus is then, truly, our brother.

Let's test it:

Do you, KD, believe that the Son of God has been God from all eternity past?

Yes.

Is Jesus a created being? Do you believe that he achieved "godhood" at some point in time after creation?

Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I AM". This phrase has multiple meanings. For one, it means that the God who stood before Abraham, the Great I Am, Jehovah, was and is Jesus Christ, the Creator of Heaven and Earth.

Last Sunday, my family and I were reading where the 'targets' (or shields) that "Solomon made" of Gold, were taken forcibly in the day of Solomon's son Rehoboam by Shishak, King or Pharoah of Egypt.

Did Solomon physically himself make those gold targets or shields? Of course not. He ordered them to be made. BUT, the Bible says he (Solomon) made them!

Did God the Father create or form the heavens and the earth? Yes. Did Jesus Christ as the Great Jehovah create or form the heavens and the earth? Yes. God the Father is the OWNER, Jesus Christ is the General Contractor, so to speak.

Another understanding of the term "I AM" is that Jehovah and/or Jesus Christ is not, was not a "HAS BEEN" (as 'traditional Christianity' accentuates), and he is not merely a "WILL BE" or a "WANNABE" -- HE IS "I AM", indicating fully that he IS NOW God.

He (Jehovah) told more than one prophet that he (Jehovah) has been God from eternity to eternity. I do not doubt his word. His integrity is impeccable.

HOWEVER, that same Jesus that we say ALWAYS has been God, nonetheless, came on earth, received a body of flesh, bones, and blood like EVERY mortal baby does, and DIED as all mortals die. He grew up and developed. The Bible itself tells us--

52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

(New Testament | Luke 2:52)

Now, WAS Jesus created or formed? His BODY was! However, the elements his body were made from have ALWAYS existed! And, HIS SPIRIT LIKE OURS HAS ALWAYS EXISTED, OR IS ETERNAL. HENCE, JESUS IS FROM ETERNITY (LOOKING BACKWARDS) TO ETERNITY (LOOKING FORWARD).

He IS and ALWAYS WILL BE SUPERIOR TO US!!!

Yet, this same Jesus, of whom it is spoken--

8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

(New Testament | Hebrews 13:8)

Was CONCEIVED physically by God the Father and Mary, with the Holy Ghost coming upon Mary FIRST so that she could endure God the Father's presence, he (Jesus) developed in Mary's womb, he was born, he was fed and nourished, grew, developed, increased in stature, in knowledge, and in wisdom. So, BY THE WORLD'S definition, Jesus "changed". However, by God the Father's definition, he "grew in stature and in wisdom" (or "developed") as a mortal.

He then, as all mortals do, died. But then he (Jesus) raised up his own body on the 3rd day (again, in the inclusive ways the Jews counted then), and by his power we can and will be all resurrected, to stand before God the Father at the judgement seat.

For the record, I would not go so far as to say it "doesn't phase" me. I do not agree with infant baptism. But such a doctrinal error won't lead me to castigate a brother.

But believing in a different concept of God would, though. Most interesting.

You will accept liars, thieves, fornicators, perhaps 'abusers of themselves with mankind', adulterers, and murderers -- but MORMONS are the vilest of ALL sinners FOR WHAT THEY BELIEVE (and NOT necessarily for what they DO)! Again, most interesting.

--KING DAVID

smothers

January 6th, 2004, 05:49 PM

What did the Mormon prophet say when talking about a wife. "Bringham Young."

King David

January 6th, 2004, 05:58 PM

Somehow I was quoting as 'quoting'--

He that is not for us is against us.

But what I quoted was--

...He that is not against us is for us.

(New Testament | Luke 9:50)

There IS a DIFFERENCE between the two quotes!

I am not certain, therefore, that I understand, Smothers, by your reply. I think that you may have misunderstood what I said? (I was NOT disagreeing with you, necessarily, on your point).

--KING DAVID

King David

January 6th, 2004, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by smothers

What did the Mormon prophet say when talking about a wife. "Bringham Young."

Clever!

--KING DAVID

p.s. I'm sure my Uncle Brigham would have gotten a good chuckle out of that! (LOL)

King David

January 6th, 2004, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Living4Him

The Lord God calls me His child.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

(Revelation 3:21)

--KING DAVID

Living4Him

January 6th, 2004, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by King David

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

(Revelation 3:21)

--KING DAVID

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

(1 John 5:4-5)

King David

January 6th, 2004, 08:47 PM

Originally posted by Living4Him

For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world-our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

(1 John 5:4-5)

I reply--

1 WHOSOEVER believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

(1 John 5:1 - 3)

--KING DAVID

Living4Him

January 6th, 2004, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by King David

I reply--

--KING DAVID

And do tell me which commandments do you keep?

King David

January 6th, 2004, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by Living4Him

And do tell me which commandments do you keep?

I will answer you this question if you will answer me this one--

Which commandments do you NOT keep?

--KING DAVID

Living4Him

January 6th, 2004, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by King David

I will answer you this question if you will answer me this one--

Which commandments do you NOT keep?

--KING DAVID

You first.

Living4Him

January 6th, 2004, 11:42 PM

Ok David I will play and give you my answer. I don't keep the commandments to scarifice animals. Now do answer my question please.

Aimiel

January 7th, 2004, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by jesusreligion
You are correct. You neither "saw" nor "heard" any pearls because you are both blind and deaf. Pity. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Aimiel

January 7th, 2004, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by King David
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

(Revelation 3:21)

--KING DAVID For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

King David

January 8th, 2004, 02:57 AM

Originally posted by Aimiel

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Or, as found in the KJV (with references, as you failed to supply)--

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

(Revelation 22:18 - 19)

Of course, Aimiel, while MAN may not add to or take away from this book, NOTHING INDICATES THAT GOD CANNOT ADD TO IT!!

Furthermore, if we come to the erroneous conclusion I am certain you are implying this leads to, let me remind you of a similiar quotation found in the book of Deuteronomy-- YES, that written by Moses, way back when--

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

(Old Testament | Deuteronomy 4:2)

Remember, the 'scripture' spoken of in the New Testament is the Old Testament. Despite what is written in Deuteronomy, nothing prevents God from adding to what He has already said! For, truly, " If ye will not believe, surely ye shall not be established." (Isaiah 7:9)

--KING DAVID

Aimiel

January 8th, 2004, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by King David
Of course, Aimiel, while MAN may not add to or take away from this book, NOTHING INDICATES THAT GOD CANNOT ADD TO IT!!The implication that God might change His Word, add to it or take away from it ignores God's Character. He is The Same, yesterday, today and forever. His Word was sealed by the phrase, "...which are written in this book," being past tense, and making edits (as foolish people will always try to do) is not allowed. God, had He decided in His Omnipotence, to make His Word different, would have made changes before placing this 'seal' upon His Word. :think: Furthermore, if we come to the erroneous conclusion I am certain you are implying this leads to, let me remind you of a similiar quotation found in the book of Deuteronomy-- YES, that written by Moses, way back when--

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.I am not saying that God did not place a similar seal upon the Pentateuch (the first five books of The Bible), but the fact that He did does not diminish His doing so to the whole Bible. If you don't understand that God's Logos Word is complete, then you have to understand that you will almost always have a logistics problem with all those who do. Anyone who believes the gospel of Thomas, Mary Magdalene, Leonardo DaVinci or Charles Manson belongs in The Bible is just as dead wrong as those who believe that books the LDS have added belong there.

Zakath

January 8th, 2004, 11:24 AM

So after 18 days and 174 posts, have you followers of Christ come up with a single, coherent, universally acceptable definition? :think:

BillyBob

January 8th, 2004, 11:36 AM

Of course! It's whatever Tye says.

Living4Him

January 8th, 2004, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by Zakath

So after 18 days and 174 posts, have you followers of Christ come up with a single, coherent, universally acceptable definition? :think:

This is the answer:

It is not he who runs or he who will's but God who shows mercy.

And God gives us the power to be sons of God.

You must be born again.

Fo it is by grace that we are saved and not by works lest anyone should boast.

So no matter how you want to believe, a Christian is only one by the grace of God and not of themselves.

Aimiel

January 8th, 2004, 12:23 PM

You can't define a Christian, much like you can't define a winner. The winner is the one that finishes the race ahead of the rest. There are many who start, and there may even be many that finish, but only one is the winner. The one that God chooses can be a Christian, and will finish that which The Lord spoke over their life in faith, by Prophecy, before the foundation of the earth, and will prosper in what The Lord sends His Word that He spoke over them, to accomplish His Will in the earth.

Zakath

January 8th, 2004, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Living4Him

This is the answer:

It is not he who runs or he who will's but God who shows mercy.

And God gives us the power to be sons of God.

You must be born again.

Fo it is by grace that we are saved and not by works lest anyone should boast.

So no matter how you want to believe, a Christian is only one by the grace of God and not of themselves. At the risk of sounding like I'm nitpicking, pretend I wasn't raised in America and explain that in plain English. :confused:

Zakath

January 8th, 2004, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Aimiel

You can't define a Christian, much like you can't define a winner. The winner is the one that finishes the race ahead of the rest. There are many who start, and there may even be many that finish, but only one is the winner. The one that God chooses can be a Christian, and will finish that which The Lord spoke over their life in faith, by Prophecy, before the foundation of the earth, and will prosper in what The Lord sends His Word that He spoke over them, to accomplish His Will in the earth. So no one knows if they're a Christian or not until it's too late?

servent101

January 8th, 2004, 01:20 PM

King David

quote:
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

(Revelation 22:18 - 19)

Boys Boys - the verse has to do with the prophecies in the Book of Revelation - not to do with anything to the closed canon of Christian Scriptures - what is or is not to be considered Scripture.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

jesusreligion

January 8th, 2004, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Aimiel
But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

I will let you be, then...:chuckle:

jesusreligion

January 8th, 2004, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by Aimiel

The implication that God might change His Word, add to it or take away from it ignores God's Character. He is The Same, yesterday, today and forever.

O.K., if you want to stand on this (that the bible is without error, the "word of God" and God cannot move outside of the bounds of the words on a printed page), let's look at God in the bible:

If Jesus is God, then why did Jesus murder women and children in the old testament. After all, God IS the same, yesterday, today and forever. God is either love (as the scriptures say) or He is a wrathful murder (as the scriptures say)...which is it? If He is unchanging, He cannot be both. If God changes, then He is a liar when He stated "I change not."

Something huge is wrong with your theology, because God is either a liar, or you have misinterpreted Him. My bet is that God is in fact unchanging and is Love not wrath or murderous; and YOU are the one in error, my fine pharisee...
:kookoo:

Living4Him

January 8th, 2004, 03:07 PM

Originally posted by Zakath

At the risk of sounding like I'm nitpicking, pretend I wasn't raised in America and explain that in plain English. :confused:

It is God who searches the heart and mind of man. He knows who cries out to Him for salvation.

It is all about the heart of a person.

And only God draws a persons to Himself.
Only God gives true wisdom.
Only God gives salvation.

So a person can name themselves a christian and do all the things they believe make them a christian and say all the words of a christian but it is only God who gives a new heart, a new mind, and a new life and salvation.

If God does not give it then they are not His.

Zakath

January 8th, 2004, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Living4Him

It is God who searches the heart and mind of man. He knows who cries out to Him for salvation.

It is all about the heart of a person.

And only God draws a persons to Himself.
Only God gives true wisdom.
Only God gives salvation.

So a person can name themselves a christian and do all the things they believe make them a christian and say all the words of a christian but it is only God who gives a new heart, a new mind, and a new life and salvation.

If God does not give it then they are not His. So, if I understand you correctly, a Christian is someone who is "drawn" to God?

Living4Him

January 8th, 2004, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Zakath

So, if I understand you correctly, a Christian is someone who is "drawn" to God?

A christian is one whom God reveals His Son to.

As it is written in Matthew 16:16-17

Simon Peter answered and said, " You are the Son of the Living God."

Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.

Aimiel

January 9th, 2004, 11:38 AM

Originally posted by jesusreligion
O.K., if you want to stand on this (that the bible is without error, the "word of God" and God cannot move outside of the bounds of the words on a printed page), let's look at God in the bible:Did I say that The Bible is without error? Did I say that God was 'restricted' by His Word?If Jesus is God, then why did Jesus murder women and children in the old testament. After all, God IS the same, yesterday, today and forever. God is either love (as the scriptures say) or He is a wrathful murder (as the scriptures say)...which is it? If He is unchanging, He cannot be both. If God changes, then He is a liar when He stated "I change not."If you wish to believe that God has ever murdered anyone (personally) then do so. I believe that there are people who He leads to do His Will, and that there are angels who also do His Will. I don't believe that God has ever sinned, and I believe that He does not sin because of His Own Holiness, and not because it is 'written' down somewhere. Something huge is wrong with your theology, because God is either a liar, or you have misinterpreted Him. My bet is that God is in fact unchanging and is Love not wrath or murderous; and YOU are the one in error, my fine pharisee...I am not the one who believes that the Lord is described in The Bible as a 'Wrathful Murderer,' as you appear to be. I think that it is your theology that needs a lot of work. It doesn't line up with orthodoxy, logic, common sense or about 99% of the rest of Christendom.

CryTears

January 9th, 2004, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by Living4Him

You first.

I don't know if this was intended to be funny but my dogs think I am crazy for laughing at the computer screen.

CryTears

January 9th, 2004, 11:53 AM

A Christian
blieves in God
believes Jesus came to fulfill the prophesy
believes in helping others
believes that there is an afterlife
believes there is a heaven and a hell
believes actions done on earth will determine where the soul goes in the afterlife
believes in being humble, non boasting, to do good without recognition,
believes sex is not to be exploited without a thought about morality
believes pornography is wrong
believes in variety of life, not to be obsessive
drink in moderation
believes the soul is more important than the flesh
believes family comes before money
believes in sharing what they have
believes in working for money
paying ones debts
believes it matters how one gets money more than how much money one has
an honest living.
avoids looking for loopholes
avoids tricking people
avoids liars
believes the fruit of the womb is sacred
life is sacred
believes in being fruitful and multiplying
believes in not spoiling their children
believes in teaching the word of the gospel
forgiving others
trusting others
feeding others
avoid angry people
avoid battles

Living4Him

January 9th, 2004, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by crytahvn

I don't know if this was intended to be funny but my dogs think I am crazy for laughing at the computer screen.

:chuckle:

BillyBob

January 9th, 2004, 06:14 PM

Cryt;
believes in being fruitful

Billy;
They are supposed to be gay? :shocked: OK, kidding. What if they are unable to have children? :baby:

Cryt;
and multiplying

Billy;
What if they aren't very good at math? :think:

Cryt;
believes in working for money

Billy;
That could be the most ridiculous definition of a Christian I have ever heard. Do you people just make this stuff up independently, or is there a weekly meeting where you can share your wacky ideas with other religionists?

Aimiel

January 12th, 2004, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by crytahvn

A Christian:
...drink(s) in moderationWell, that would disqualify most Catholics that I know, as well as Baptists. The former for over-doing it and the latter for under.

LightSon

January 12th, 2004, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Aimiel

Well, that would disqualify most Catholics that I know, as well as Baptists. The former for over-doing it and the latter for under.

Yes............. :(

Speaking as a Baptist, perhaps someone could sway me on the whole under-doing-it issue. Please? We Baptists can be a little stodgy.

Turbo

January 12th, 2004, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by LightSon

Yes............. :(

Speaking as a Baptist, perhaps someone could sway me on the whole under-doing-it issue. Please? We Baptists can be a little stodgy. That sounds like a fun topic I haven't seen on here lately. I'll start a new thread for it a little later.

Poly

January 12th, 2004, 02:29 PM

Originally posted by Turbo

That sounds like a fun topic I haven't seen on here lately. I'll start a new thread for it a little later.
Yeah, we could all discuss it later over a drink. :chuckle:

Turbo

January 12th, 2004, 02:57 PM

:cheers:

CryTears

January 12th, 2004, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Aimiel

Well, that would disqualify most Catholics that I know, as well as Baptists. The former for over-doing it and the latter for under.

:D :D you got a very good point there.
maybe I should revise that?

CryTears

January 12th, 2004, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by BillyBob

Cryt;
believes in being fruitful

Billy;
They are supposed to be gay? :shocked: OK, kidding. What if they are unable to have children? :baby:

Cryt;
and multiplying

Billy;
What if they aren't very good at math? :think:

Cryt;
believes in working for money

Billy;
That could be the most ridiculous definition of a Christian I have ever heard. Do you people just make this stuff up independently, or is there a weekly meeting where you can share your wacky ideas with other religionists?

answers:

they can keep trying free gratus :)
(fruitful not fruity :) )
they can just look around the room and see if it is full of "little me's"
LOL what I meant was
Christians do not believe in being freeloaders, living off other's money either by swimming the bottom of the tank or by skimming off the top, hence we have the great american taxpayer everyone tries to 'snow' we are the bodies of water, by the time the bottom sucks and the top sucks are water level is low.

CryTears

January 12th, 2004, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by LightSon

Yes............. :(

Speaking as a Baptist, perhaps someone could sway me on the whole under-doing-it issue. Please? We Baptists can be a little stodgy.

I am thinking you shouldnt pop the cork until my revision statement comes out.
but it does say drink seven days when you have a death
and do not forget Jesus drank on his last day

CryTears

January 12th, 2004, 04:19 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Turbo

:cheers: [/QUOTe

got guiness?

King David

January 17th, 2004, 12:04 AM

How about the concept that a Christian is someone who is a disciple of Christ, as Christ was a disciple of God the Father?

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

(New Testament | John 5:17 - 20)

--KING DAVID

CryTears

January 17th, 2004, 09:29 AM

:thumb:

but then we need to figure out what Christians would do today to follow the line of Christ.
We cannot just worship Him with our lips, but our acts.
Following the Ten Commandments?

King David

January 20th, 2004, 09:08 PM

It interesting to me to note that few on this board truly seek to be like Christ. But then, why should they be. If they are ALREADY saved, what incentive do they have?

--KING DAVID

OMEGA

January 20th, 2004, 09:51 PM

DAVID

NOBODY GETS SAVED UNTIL THE TRUE GOD AND THE SAVIOUR

COMES BACK TO SAVE

THE WORLD FROM DESTRUCTION.

King David

January 20th, 2004, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by OMEGA

DAVID

NOBODY GETS SAVED UNTIL THE TRUE GOD AND THE SAVIOUR

COMES BACK TO SAVE

THE WORLD FROM DESTRUCTION.

There are several meanings to the words "SAVED" and "SALVATION". You are addressing one of them primarily, at one future point in the world's history. And, yes, it will be a momentous event for EVERYONE who has lived from the time of Adam until then.

--KING DAVID

CryTears

January 21st, 2004, 12:57 AM

LightSon

January 22nd, 2004, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by King David

It interesting to me to note that few on this board truly seek to be like Christ. But then, why should they be. If they are ALREADY saved, what incentive do they have?

--KING DAVID
"We've got our salvation, so to hell with everyone else?" :nono: A Christian won't have that attitude. :(
What is our incentive?
While I'm sure there are tons more, here's 3 good reasons:
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame 1st Cor 15:34

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil 2:13
The sanctification process is God's work. The fruit of the Spirit ought to be seen in one that abides in Christ.

We love him, because he first loved us. 1st John 4:19

King David

January 23rd, 2004, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by LightSon

"We've got our salvation, so to hell with everyone else?" :nono: A Christian won't have that attitude. :(
What is our incentive?
While I'm sure there are tons more, here's 3 good reasons:
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame 1st Cor 15:34

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil 2:13
The sanctification process is God's work. The fruit of the Spirit ought to be seen in one that abides in Christ.

We love him, because he first loved us. 1st John 4:19

Paul,

It is something to hear, across the ages, the likes of John the Baptist, the greatest of all prophets, according to the Savior himself, who said this--

7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

9 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

(New Testament | Luke 3:7 - 9)

Note, that he said that they FIRST MUST REPENT, or they had no hope in the Kingdom of Heaven. This contrasts greatly with those who claim that one is "saved first", and then everything else follows. Example after example in the scripture indicates otherwise. One must repent, belief, and act upon that belief. Belief is not merely a mental nod to something. I can say I believe in love, but unless I practice it, unless I do good to others, my "profession" of love is merely lip service, and good for nothing UNTIL IT IS BACKED UP WITH ACTIONS!

So is faith in Christ. One must FOLLOW up a claim, a profession of belief, with WORKS (or 'fruits') meet for repentance.

--KING DAVID

smaller

January 24th, 2004, 11:33 AM

The "proof" of faith is clear.

Love one another as He Loved us and gave His Life for us.

None are exempt from His Eternal Love and His Love is not "activated" by the "self atonement" of men.

He who hates his brother is both a murderer and a liar.

There is no greater hatred, no greater murder, no greater lie, than to think in your heart that another person will be eternally tortured by God.

Adam

January 24th, 2004, 04:21 PM

Hi David,

I did not read through the 14 pages of this thread, but thought I’d answer your question anyway.

A Christian is one who is like Christ. A true Christian has the same Spirit that Jesus had.

The term “Christian” was first applied in a derogatory manner to the early followers of Jesus in the century after His death.

In our age, it is taken on by many people who do not want to appear to be “heathen” even though their actions give them away. Many professed “Christ” followers today, such as President Bush, show that actions reveal a man’s heart more than words do.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you..

God does not take notice as to a man’s theological ideas, nor does He mark them according to their religious affiliation. What God looks at is a man’s heart. Do they love Him with all of their heart? Do they treat others as if they were dealing with Jesus Himself?

Modern Babylon (backslidden christianity) is like a club or organization, and is friends only with those who are also in that same club. Groups such as LDS, JW’s and others are labeled “non-christian” or “cult” because they do not accept the leadership of the main club.

It is much the same way in which the nations are shepherded today. If a nation is in the club (G8, UN), bowing to the whims of the club leader (USA), then all is well. If they are not a part of that club, or do not bow to the demands of the club leader, then their government is overthrown and their people slaughtered, as the events of the last few years has demonstrated.

The children of God are not concerned about being accepted to a church or affiliation. Their one desire is to love the Lord, and to follow the Lamb where ever He leads.

Adam

King David

January 31st, 2004, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Adam

Hi David,

I did not read through the 14 pages of this thread, but thought I’d answer your question anyway.

A Christian is one who is like Christ. A true Christian has the same Spirit that Jesus had.

The term “Christian” was first applied in a derogatory manner to the early followers of Jesus in the century after His death.

In our age, it is taken on by many people who do not want to appear to be “heathen” even though their actions give them away. Many professed “Christ” followers today, such as President Bush, show that actions reveal a man’s heart more than words do.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you..

God does not take notice as to a man’s theological ideas, nor does He mark them according to their religious affiliation. What God looks at is a man’s heart. Do they love Him with all of their heart? Do they treat others as if they were dealing with Jesus Himself?

Modern Babylon (backslidden christianity) is like a club or organization, and is friends only with those who are also in that same club. Groups such as LDS, JW’s and others are labeled “non-christian” or “cult” because they do not accept the leadership of the main club.

It is much the same way in which the nations are shepherded today. If a nation is in the club (G8, UN), bowing to the whims of the club leader (USA), then all is well. If they are not a part of that club, or do not bow to the demands of the club leader, then their government is overthrown and their people slaughtered, as the events of the last few years has demonstrated.

The children of God are not concerned about being accepted to a church or affiliation. Their one desire is to love the Lord, and to follow the Lamb where ever He leads.

Adam

For the most part of what you said, I would not necessarily disagree.

--KING DAVID

CryTears

April 30th, 2004, 01:10 PM

Originally posted by crytahvn

A Christian
blieves in God
believes Jesus came to fulfill the prophesy
believes in helping others
believes that there is an afterlife
believes there is a heaven and a hell
believes actions done on earth will determine where the soul goes in the afterlife
believes in being humble, non boasting, to do good without recognition,
believes sex is not to be exploited without a thought about morality
believes pornography is wrong
believes in variety of life, not to be obsessive
drink in moderation
believes the soul is more important than the flesh
believes family comes before money
believes in sharing what they have
believes in working for money
paying ones debts
believes it matters how one gets money more than how much money one has
an honest living.
avoids looking for loopholes
avoids tricking people
avoids liars
believes the fruit of the womb is sacred
life is sacred
believes in being fruitful and multiplying
believes in not spoiling their children
believes in teaching the word of the gospel
forgiving others
trusting others
feeding others
avoid angry people
avoid battles

Did Eli bear false witness?
Did he break a commandment?
yes
yes