Does Calvinism limit God?

[Poly]

I touched on this on another thread but I want to get other views on this. Does Calvinism limit God? Those that believe God predestined everything must admit one of 2 things. Either God was not powerful enough to give man a true freewill or He was powerful enough but instead chose to pre-program everybody's will.
Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event? If your answer is no then you limit God. If your answer is yes then you have to either deny predestination or believe He chose this way though He didn't have to. So why would a loving God choose to pre-arrange a woman being raped, a person being murdered, etc.? If you say it is to bring about His glory, is He not powerful enough to bring it about without this having to happen? I say He is. I say that since He truly is the living and loving God, if there be any other way to bring about His glory without having to do that which is against His nature then of course He would go this route. I believe He is so powerful, infact, that His glory will be established despite the evil of man. He's so powerful, He could give man his very own freewill yet man's own wickedness will never take away from God's power, glory and sovereignty.

[servent101]

Poly

I touched on this on another thread but I want to get other views on this. Does Calvinism limit God?

I have anoter view - I will try to keep it short - There is a new heaven and a new earth promised - if and when we get there - the rules change - and what is pre-destined is going to come about - the end of the age - the enialation etc.- and if you follow "other Scriptures" then the re-birth - a new Creation is then established. I believe the ciriculum stays the same for us - reap what you sow, and for those who sow in the Lord's field there is eternal life, for those who don't there is classroom earth to teach us the consequences of our actions - I don't believe ther eis a literal hell. But for predestination - I think God is working out everyone's salvation - and for some it will be a long painful process.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Knight]

Originally posted by servent101

Poly



I have anoter view - I will try to keep it short - There is a new heaven and a new earth promised - if and when we get there - the rules change - and what is pre-destined is going to come about - the end of the age - the enialation etc.- and if you follow "other Scriptures" then the re-birth - a new Creation is then established. I believe the ciriculum stays the same for us - reap what you sow, and for those who sow in the Lord's field there is eternal life, for those who don't there is classroom earth to teach us the consequences of our actions - I don't believe ther eis a literal hell. But for predestination - I think God is working out everyone's salvation - and for some it will be a long painful process.

With Christ's Love

Servent101 Interesting view....

Did you invent this view yourself?

[Poly]

Originally posted by servent101

Poly



I have anoter view - I will try to keep it short - There is a new heaven and a new earth promised - if and when we get there - the rules change - and what is pre-destined is going to come about - the end of the age - the enialation etc.- and if you follow "other Scriptures" then the re-birth - a new Creation is then established. I believe the ciriculum stays the same for us - reap what you sow, and for those who sow in the Lord's field there is eternal life, for those who don't there is classroom earth to teach us the consequences of our actions - I don't believe ther eis a literal hell. But for predestination - I think God is working out everyone's salvation - and for some it will be a long painful process.

With Christ's Love

Servent101
:confused: :confused: :confused:
Maybe you can get back with us when a few more of your braincells to start perkin' up.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Poly

:confused: :confused: :confused:
Maybe you can get back with us when a few more of your braincells to start perkin' up. :chuckle:

[Knight]

Originally posted by Lucky

Maybe you should hold off on reading that. At least wait til your brain cells start to perk up. Are you agreeing with 101's post? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Poly
Those that believe God predestined everything must admit one of 2 things. Either God was not powerful enough to give man a true freewill or He was powerful enough but instead chose to pre-program everybody's will.
Do you there may be another way to see this?
God granted man a freewill.
Is God not powerful enough to correct/control man's will, or does man have the ultimate power and control God with our own will?
Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event?
Did Knight himself not use a Bible verse pointing out the God directs our steps?
So why would a loving God choose to pre-arrange a woman being raped, a person being murdered, etc.?
Does the Bible read that God causes evil?
He's so powerful, He could give man his very own freewill yet man's own wickedness will never take away from God's power, glory and sovereignty.
Is He powerful enough that in spite of man's freewill, He can still direct our footsteps as He says He does?

[jobeth]

Originally posted by Poly
Those that believe God predestined everything must admit one of 2 things. Either God was not powerful enough to give man a true freewill or He was powerful enough but instead chose to pre-program everybody's will.
I believe that God is powerful enough to give man a freewill. But He's not that stupid.
Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event?
Yes, He could. And that is just the kind of world that will exist for those who are separated from God's control. Which would seem to be good for them, since that's what they wanted. But our Lord warned us that they won't actually be happy being separated from God's control. What a dilemma. On the one hand they want to be in Heaven rather than hell, but on the other hand they don't want to give up their free will to live in a world where only God's will is done.

Don't you know that everyone who will get into heaven will have first surrendered their will to God? And if you surrendered you will to God, then how can you claim to still have a will of your own?

[jobeth]

Originally posted by Tye Porter
God granted man a freewill.
Is God not powerful enough to correct/control man's will, or does man have the ultimate power and control God with our own will?
I think you misunderstand. Freewill means "freedom from God's control". So saying that man has a freewill that God controls is kind of an oxymoron.
Did Knight himself not use a Bible verse pointing out the God directs our steps? Of course God directs our steps. He is Lord over all, whether anyone believes or acknowledges that fact or not.
Does the Bible read that God causes evil?
As a matter of fact, it does.
Is 45:7; Amos 3:6; Hab 3:5; Lam 3:38; Prov 16:4 et al

Is He powerful enough that in spite of man's freewill, He can still direct our footsteps as He says He does? Freewill is a human myth based on a Satanic lie.

[Behira]

All denominations limit G-d by their dogma.

[geralduk]

No.
It speaks of God as it is written.
and of man as it is written.

it limits man.
and there is the 'rub' for some people.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Behira

All denominations limit G-d by their dogma.

Men 'limit' what God can DO by thier belief that a PART is the WHOLE.

AND EVEN A "SOUND DOCTRIN" is not ALL DOCTRIN.

When Peter had come to the revalation of who Christ WAS.
Though he was RIGHT and he had come to a knowledge of the truth pertaining to WHO Christ was.
When the LORD seeking to BUILD on that foundation "went a little further"and began to FURTHER REVEAL what was NEXT in the progresive puproses of God.
Peter began to reject it and began to even disuade the LORD from it.
Because it did not FIT with HIS understanding OF THE TRUTH.
but taking the PART that he DID KNOW.made it out to be the WHOLE.

Thus we have CALVIN AND LUTHOR AND DISPENSATIONISST AND COVENENT THEOLOGY and all the other 'systems' (if they be FOUNDED ON THE TRUTH of course)
Our 'systems' have become our 'god' almost.
The LORD did not undermine or throw away the TRUTH of what PETER KNEW.But it was on THAT foundation that HE BEGAN to REVEAL MORE!
But we have so REDUCED the gospel to being BORNagain(for the sake of 'peace'?)That we have rejected WHAT COMES AFTER!
Perhaps for the same reason?
For the lord began to speak of the SUFFERING and the CROSS.
and where as we hear A LOT concerning that to 'CELEBRATE' about.
we do not hear much about the CROSS.

Are we not to "take up OUR CROSS daily and folow Him"?

The cross is a place of DEATH.
and SELF DENIAL.
AND seekign FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS rightousness.
and OBEDIENCE" even unto the death of the cross" IF NEED BE.

That is why perhaps men are HAPPY to DEBATE the cross but not to HANG ON IT.

We rejoice that christ died for us.
But perhaps are not so overjoyed in 'dying' for Him?

We are heading for VERY SERIOS days AHEAD.
AND THE STORM CLOUDS are already gathering.
the ONLY safe place is WITH Him.
NOT "AFAR off"

The question is will we HOLD TO THAT WHICH IS GOOD that we in truth "know" and seek FIRST the kingdom of God and HIS rightousness..." and set our faces as FLINTS to DO what we know and if we do we will find that, we too will have to suffer persecutions and trials.
Not in any measure as comparable to His.
But nevertheless suffer them we must.
"For they that live GODLY in Christ JESUS (listen) WILL suffer persecution"

The church does not 'live' by saving itself.
But by GIVING itself and laying down its life "fro My sake and the gospels"
and when we build walls for our OWN protection rather leave our life in Gods hands we STAGNATE.
Most debates on thses forums are done from BEHIND the high walls of the varios 'schools' of theology.
to which each defends as HE sees fit.
But the kingdom of God is likened unto a man who WENT OUT to SOW. and while we know that the enemey has his own sowers.
nevertheless the we should be doing more and WATCHING.
It was while MEN SLEPT that hsi enemy came and sowed tares!

So the ONLY thing that 'limits' God in a sense is mans UNBELIEF.
"For He could do NO WORK there for thier unbelief"
Notwithstanding that God'swill is DONE and NO man can stop it.
It just is not done in them.
Not to Gods 'hurt' but to thier own. But to them that believe not Gods will is done there also but according to that which pertains to them who do not believe.

But to them who DO BELIEVE .........."ALL things are possible" according to the will of God.

[servent101]

Poly – I will try to make my post a little more understandable –

I have another view - I will try to keep it short - There is a new heaven and a new earth promised - if and when we get there - the rules change - and what is pre-destined for this current earth is not going to come about – example - the end of the age - the inhalation etc. If you follow "other Scriptures" then the re-birth - a new Creation is then established after the inhalation. I believe the curriculum stays the same for us for eternity – those who are saved. The reap what you sow, still applies in the old earth - and for those who sow in the Lord's field there is eternal life, for those who don't there is classroom earth to teach us the consequences of our actions - I don't believe there is some sort of predestination – yet in some sense it could be considered predestination - I think God is working out everyone's salvation - and for some it will be a long painful process, a lot like going through hell – and some souls were simply not meant to contemplate God conscious matters – there are other forms of life their souls can have that are more suiting to their nature – but nothing stays the same for an eternity.

If you could not understand my first post, I am sorry – I was rushed and the post was not finished properly – there is Scripture I could quote about the new earth and new heaven – I think it is Biblically sound.

I will toss this back to you

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

[Poly]

Originally posted by Tye Porter


Is God not powerful enough to correct/control man's will...

Correct and control are 2 different things. There are ways that He can correct a situation, done out of our stupidity or bad choice, if He so desires, without having having to pre-program what our actions will be. If a father catches his son stealing, he can be a part of correcting that situation. He disciplines the child, makes the child give the money back and then some or whatever he thinks necessary in making this circumstance better.
... or does man have the ultimate power and control God with our own will?
Does man put God in a difficult situation where he bites His nails and worries Himself to death over what He's going to do since man did something that "never entered His mind" or something that God would rather him not do? No. That's just it. That's how powerful and how much God should be trusted. He is incredibly wise and knows man better than we know ourselves. I know what kind of actions my kids will take and reactions they will have in particular situations but I didn't have to program them in order to know it. How much more and on a greater level, does God know us?
Did Knight himself not use a Bible verse pointing out the God directs our steps?
It doesn't surprise me that He did since there are several. Again I use the example of parents. If a father raises and instructs his child in the way he should go, has he not directed his steps? Must all passages speaking of God doing this, mean that all of our actions were predestined?
Does the Bible read that God causes evil? No

Is He powerful enough that in spite of man's freewill, He can still direct our footsteps as He says He does? Yes, just as I described 2 quotes ago.

[Knight]

Originally posted by jobeth

I think you misunderstand. Freewill means "freedom from God's control". So saying that man has a freewill that God controls is kind of an oxymoron. JoBeth that is a false dilemma.

God chose to give us a will of our own yet He controls the limits of that will therefore your statement is has no logical foundation.

You continue... Of course God directs our steps. He is Lord over all, whether anyone believes or acknowledges that fact or not. I prefer to believe God instead of JoBeth. JoBeth says God directs man's steps whether man believes in Him or not, yet God says just the opposite...Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. Therefore God disagrees with JoBeth.

You continue....Freewill is a human myth based on a Satanic lie. ROTFL..... :D.

JoBeth.... don't you realize what you are saying?

You claim God controls every aspect of every created being.

Therefore IF freewill is a Satanic lie THEN freewill is a Satanic lie created and directed by God!

[smaller]

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Are there EXCEPTIONS to ALL THINGS?

God might actually KNOW what He is doing eh?

[Knight]

Originally posted by smaller

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Are there EXCEPTIONS to ALL THINGS?

God might actually KNOW what He is doing eh? Of course there are exceptions!!!

Maybe Smaller can answer for us these simple questions....

At creation.....

Did God create love?
Did God create righteousness?
Did God create Himself?

[Rolf Ernst]

poly--You make two premises in your first post on this thread which are false. A false premise, if believed, will always lead to false conclusions.
As proof that your premises are false, let me see you reconcile them with Psalm 33:10,11 "The Lord brings the counsel of the heathen to nothing. He makes the devices of the people of no effect. The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the thoughts of His heart to all generations." and "He frustrates the purposes of the crafty so that their hands cannot perform their plans."
You see, your mistake is that you think man has the power to do whatever he pleases and God has to like it, or lump it. MISTAKE! BIG MISTAKE! It is the other way around. Man (or satan)
can only do what God is pleased for them to accomplish.
OH, SURE! MAN HAS FREE WILL, ALRIGHT; but he has no power to DO what he wills to do unless God is pleased to allow it for His own reason.

"WHO IS HE WHO SAYS AND IT COMES TO PASS WHEN THE LORD HAS NOT COMMANDED IT?"

Don't get confused over that. Just ask Him for understanding.

[jobeth]

What, exactly, is man's freewill free from if not God's (or anyone else's) control?

I don't know what it means to say that man has a freewill that is controlled, (Tye?) or limited, (Knight?) or restrained, (Rolf?) by God. Doesn't that mean man's will is NOT free?

[Knight]

Originally posted by jobeth

What, exactly, is man's freewill free from if not God's (or anyone else's) control?

I don't know what it means to say that man has a freewill that is controlled, (Tye?) or limited, (Knight?) or restrained, (Rolf?) by God. Doesn't that mean man's will is NOT free? Good question.... yet simple answer.

God created us and delegated that we have our own wills. Yet these wills have logical limitations that are by God's design.

For instance... although we have the freewill and ability to choose and follow God we DO NOT have the freewill nor ability to save ourselves without God's help. Therefore we have freewill within the scope that God ordained.

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Knight

Good question.... yet simple answer.

God created us and delegated that we have our own wills. Yet these wills have logical limitations that are by God's design.

For instance... although we have the freewill and ability to choose and follow God we DO NOT have the freewill nor ability to save ourselves without God's help. Therefore we have freewill within the scope that God ordained.
Thanks for clearing that up, Knight. Now I'm way confused as to what you believe! :chuckle:

[jobeth]

So are we as free as a bird in a cage? Is that what you are saying?

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Lucky

Thanks for clearing that up, Knight. Now I'm way confused as to what you believe! :chuckle:

:thumb: He argues both sides and once he confused me he started ignoring me.
You'd better take it back before you get the cold shoulder. :D

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Poly
Correct and control are 2 different things. There are ways that He can correct a situation, done out of our stupidity or bad choice, if He so desires, without having having to pre-program what our actions will be. If a father catches his son stealing, he can be a part of correcting that situation. He disciplines the child, makes the child give the money back and then some or whatever he thinks necessary in making this circumstance better.
Good response!
So if God regretted/wished something did not happen, like a Good Father, He would take corrective steps?
Does this mean, for example, that if Judas did not betray Jesus, that God would have taken corrective actions to see that somebody else did?
If God told us, through John, that in the end times a certain event would happen, but man and his wicked will took history in another direction, God would take corrective actions?
Would not directing our paths and correcting our missteps be "controlling" our future, even while granting the lost free will?

[Poly]

Originally posted by Tye Porter


So if God regretted/wished something did not happen, like a Good Father, He would take corrective steps?

Corrective steps as in correcting man's sin? Yes.
Before the flood, God said He was sorry that He made man. He could either allow man to keep going in his downward spiral for generations to come, never getting the chance to experience God due to the severity of such sin at the time or God could be merciful and stop this destruction as He did and start over.
Does this mean, for example, that if Judas did not betray Jesus, that God would have taken corrective actions to see that somebody else did?
If Judas hadn't betrayed Jesus I just can't see this being a roadblock for God. "Great, Judas! You didn't betray Jesus like I'd hoped you would. Now everything is ruined!". There would really be no "corrective action" to take here since this suggests that Judas doing the right thing would need to be corrected. Bottom line is, people wanted Jesus dead...period. If Judas hadn't betrayed Him, this would not have stopped people from finding a way to kill Him.
Would not directing our paths and correcting our missteps be "controlling" our future, even while granting the lost free will?
If you mean "controlling" as in the example of the Father taking corrective actions against the son that stole, then yes.

[jobeth]

Originally posted by Poly

If you mean "controlling" as in the example of the Father taking corrective actions against the son that stole, then yes.

So are you saying that we are no more free from God's control than a minor dependent child is free from their father's control?

Would you say we have more or less freedom from God's control than a minor dependent child has from its parents' control?

Tye:
I get your point. If Judas had not betrayed Jesus such that Jesus had not been handed over to the authorities, and because of Judas' failure to act, Jesus had been allowed to slip through their fingers once more, and lived to a ripe old age, and died of natural causes, then we would, gasp! still be in our sins, wouldn't we?

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Poly
If you mean "controlling" as in the example of the Father taking corrective actions against the son that stole, then yes.
Does the father direct his son's steps, as a controlling method?

Knight pointed out (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=433425#post433425), several times, making it very clear, that while a man's wicked heart may plan his own ways, the Lord steps in and directs his paths.
You and I may desire and make plans, but God "corrects" us and directs our paths.
Knight goes on... (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=433618#post433618)
He shows that while we make preparations, the ultimate answer comes from the Lord.
That God establishes our thoughts.


As you can see, the Bible clearly states that while we have the freewill to make our choices/desires/plans, the Lord directs our paths/thoughts.
He is in ultimate control of where we are going.
Our future is not open if God is directing where it is we are going and what we are thinking on the way there.

[Poly]

Originally posted by Tye Porter



Knight pointed out (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=433425#post433425), several times, making it very clear, that while a man's wicked heart may plan his own ways, the Lord steps in and directs his paths.


:confused: You'll have to show me where Knight said that a man's wicked heart gets his paths directed by God. Originally posted by Knight

Us men have our own heart - and our own will.... but if we rely of God He will direct our steps. If man had no will why would God have said... "A man’s heart plans his way,?

Lets drive home the point.....

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

"lean not on your own understanding;" Our own understanding?????? How can we have our "own understanding" if we have no will of our own? And why does God go to the trouble of telling us to acknowledge Him so that He can direct our paths if we can't help but have Him direct our paths???

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

QUESTION: When does He direct our paths???????
ANSWER: When we lean not on our own understandings and acknowledge Him in all of our ways.



It seems pretty clear to me that He was saying that those that "lean not on their own understanding" and those that "Trust in the Lord" are the ones that get their paths directed by the Lord. I think you know this too and are just trying to twist words.
Originally posted by Tye Porter

Knight goes on... (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=433618#post433618)
He shows that while we make preparations, the ultimate answer comes from the Lord.
That God establishes our thoughts.

Again, I have no idea where you're getting this.
Originally posted by Knight Isn't this a simple concept? How much more clear could God be? IF... you commit your works to the LORD... THEN... your thoughts will be established.

Isn't this a miniature version of the entire gospel message? Put your trust in God and He will guide your ways.

Which is exactly why I brought up....
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths.

This is like step by step instruction from God...

1. Trust in the LORD with all your heart
2. lean not on your own understanding
3. In all your ways acknowledge Him
4. And He shall direct your paths.

You seem less than sincere in your "Hey, what's the big deal? I'm only trying to seek answers here. You're just misunderstanding" comments.
Originally posted by Tye Porter

As you can see, the Bible clearly states that while we have the freewill to make our choices/desires/plans, the Lord directs our paths/thoughts.
He is in ultimate control of where we are going.

No, I don't clearly see this. But as you can clearly see, by the verses given early, what the bible states is that the one who trusts and seeks God is the one whose paths will be directed by Him.

Originally posted by Tye Porter
Our future is not open if God is directing where it is we are going and what we are thinking on the way there.
Why not? God directs us along the way in real time, at the very present moment we are in, freeing Him to make decisions right now concerning us. Sounds open to me.

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Poly
I have no idea where you're getting this.
No, I don't clearly see this.
But as you can clearly see, by the verses given early, what the bible states is that the one who trusts and seeks God is the one whose paths will be directed by Him.
Good, you're getting closer.
You've come to the point where you see that man has free will to choose God or deny Him.
Once we've chosen Him, our future is closed.
We become stewards of the Will of God.
He directs our paths.

Why not? God directs us along the way in real time, at the very present moment we are in, freeing Him to make decisions right now concerning us. Sounds open to me.

How can you double speak like that?
You say that God directs you along, in real time, then you say that is "open"?
You used your freewill, "X" years ago to choose God.
You seek Him.
You acknowledge Him.
You trust in Him.

He directs you.
He controls your path.
It is closed.


I think you may be going two ways here.
You, like Knight, are showing me that the future is closed.

You can have it either way, it's not a salvation issue.
Except that it kinda may be.

I asked Knight this and maybe I ought to ask you this too. (it's coming)

You two have shown me, very clearly, that the future is closed.
Controlled/Directed by God, for those who are saved.

If you can take what you've shown me and still claim that the future is open, does this mean that you two think that you can loose your salvation?

If God directs that path of a saved man but his future is still open, that would mean that God is directing it only off and on.
Which, according to what you and Knight have shown me, would mean that you are seeking Him, then not, then seeking him, then not.
Kinda like Zakath.
He claims to have been a Christian, and now he's not.

What do you think?

[Poly]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

Good, you're getting closer.

Tye, don't patronize me.

You say that God directs you along, in real time, then you say that is "open"?
Yes
You used your freewill, "X" years ago to choose God.
You seek Him.
You acknowledge Him.
You trust in Him.

He directs you.
He controls your path.
It is closed.

See, it's these kind of tactics I notice in you Tye that really bothers me. Everything you just said is true until you threw in "He controls your path" which you know full well you are using ambiguously since you've been given more than enough examples of what I feel it means for God to have control. You're being unfair to your argument. You're doing the same thing again here:

You two have shown me, very clearly, that the future is closed.
Controlled/Directed by God, for those who are saved.
Directed? Yes Controlled? Not in the way you are implying.


If God directs that path of a saved man but his future is still open, that would mean that God is directing it only off and on.
Which, according to what you and Knight have shown me, would mean that you are seeking Him, then not, then seeking him, then not.
Where do you get stuff like this? Seeking him then not? You either seek Him and He guides you, or you don't. What's with the back and forth stuff? Some have fallen away, but most don't. And unfortunately, a lot of the time, those that do, don't come back.
Kinda like Zakath.
He claims to have been a Christian, and now he's not.

What do you think?
I think He claimed to be a Christian just as he said and I'm sure He was sincere about it. Are you suggesting that since there was a time in His life that He made a choice to follow God that He is now bound by that? What do you think is going to happen on judgment day?
God: "Sorry, Zak, I know you don't believe in me but since at one time you did you gotta go to heaven."
Zak: "But I don't wanna!"
God doesn't force people to love Him because that ultimately isn't love at all.

[jobeth]

Tye:
Good, you're getting closer.
You've come to the point where you see that man has free will to choose God or deny Him.
Once we've chosen Him, our future is closed.
We become stewards of the Will of God.
He directs our paths.

You're getting closer.
Yes God directs our path. But does God direct the paths of us only, and not the paths of the whole world?

Genesis 20:6 (KJV)
And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

How do we know that whenever a wicked person refrains from performing the evil lust in his heart, that it was not just God withholding them from sinning?


Doesn't the bible say that God is currently restraining the wicked?

2 Thes. 2:7 (ESV)
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way.

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Poly

Tye, don't patronize me.
See, it's these kind of tactics I notice in you Tye that really bothers me. Everything you just said is true until you threw in "He controls your path" which you know full well you are using ambiguously since you've been given more than enough examples of what I feel it means for God to have control. You're being unfair to your argument.

You and Knight are both doing this.

I don't know who, nor do I care to know who Calvin is, unless he comes with a hobbes.

I do know that the verses Knight used support what y'all call "closed theism".

If you two want to cop attitudes and get all "Beobebobish" on me, that's kewl.

I won't have anything more to do with it.

You two cannot be shown you're wrong without getting offended.

Your opinions are not salvation issues so it is not worth the sour attitudes from the two of you to dicuss this further.

Cheers.

[Sealeaf]

Don't you know that everyone who will get into heaven will have first surrendered their will to God? And if you surrendered you will to God, then how can you claim to still have a will of your own?
You can't surrender what you don't actually have. This quote is a clear affirmation of free will. No one can give up what he does not have. If I can surrender my will to God then I have a free will. If I have no free will then I can't make choices.

Calvinism does not just limit God, it enslaves Him. Calvinism's God has no more free will than any mortal. He is locked into doing every thing He can do. Calvin makes no allowence for God chosing to not act on something that he is aware of. If God could chose not to control anything, then the whole edifice of determinism falls on its face. If any one thing can possibly be free then everything might be free. If God can chose to not control a murderer when he is sinning, then how can we be sure He is controling a saint when he is sainting?

Determinism also destroys the goodness of God. If in some way God remains free while everything else is bound to His will, then He is clearly responsible for every evil in the world. Hitler killed no Jews, God did it. Hitler did not even think up the idea on his own. God conceived it, God executed it, God is responsible for it.
God is directly, personely resposible for every rape, murder and torture ever committed against any human victim.

[godrulz]

Thank you Poly, Knight, and Sealeaf for your clarity. Your thoughts are cogent and defensible.

Predeterminism (Christian fatalism?) takes the responsibility for good and evil from God's free moral agents and puts it back on God (contrary to His nature, character, and Moral Law).

How do the rest of you function in real life? Do you really believe God is controlling every key stroke as you type, that He dictates where and when you drive, that He causes people (Christian or non-Christian) to look at porn and masturbate (sorry for trying to make a point), etc.?

Every Christian is a practical 'open theist' living life like we genuinely have free will and are able to make choices with multiple alternatives or possibilities. To be an academic predeterminist may be an interesting exercise, but it distorts the revelation of God and His history in Scripture.

No wonder Zakath rejects this caricature of Christianity and God.

[spadesalone]

FILTER YOUR LOGIC THROUGH SCRIPTURE AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND PLEASE.

[godrulz]

Do not underestimate the danger of wearing glasses based on our pre-conceived theologies (a wrong assumption leads to a wrong conclusion...begging the question/circular reasoning...assuming the point one is trying to prove).

Scriptural revelation, not rationalism, is our authority (when properly translated and interpreted).

[spadesalone]

bla bla bla

[LightSon]

Originally posted by spadesalone

bla bla bla
[not-too-subtle irony]That's a bully of an argument spades.[/not-too-subtle irony]

But by dismissing godrulz with a "bla, bla, bla," aren't you a little concerned that he will feel like a dolt, for assuming he was engaging with an adult in a serious discussion? :(

I hope I don't make the mistake of discussing anything of a serious nature with you.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Poly
:confused: You'll have to show me where Knight said that a man's wicked heart gets his paths directed by God.
LOL... don't bother asking Tye for that question... he won't be able yo show you... but he wont let that stop him from misrepresenting my words.

Oh well. :(

[Knight]

Tye states...
I do know that the verses Knight used support what y'all call "closed theism".

If you two want to cop attitudes and get all "Beobebobish" on me, that's kewl.

I won't have anything more to do with it.

You two cannot be shown you're wrong without getting offended.

Your opinions are not salvation issues so it is not worth the sour attitudes from the two of you to dicuss this further.

Cheers.Tye I keep wondering why you try to argue that I am stating something that I am not. :confused: Wouldn't it be more fun to discuss/argue/debate the things I ACTUALLY say?

Maybe your arguments against mine are valid... maybe my arguments against yours are valid. But how will we ever know until you actually address what I have been saying instead of some odd opposite misrepresentation of what I am saying?

And then you wonder why I get offended. :rolleyes:

[Knight]

Let me re-post it.

Originally posted by smaller

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Are there EXCEPTIONS to ALL THINGS?

God might actually KNOW what He is doing eh? Of course there are exceptions!!!

Maybe Smaller can answer for us these simple questions....

At creation.....

Did God create love?
Did God create righteousness?
Did God create Himself?

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

You and Knight are both doing this.

I don't know who, nor do I care to know who Calvin is, unless he comes with a hobbes.
Originally written by Bill Watterson

Calvin is named for a sixteenth-century theologian who believed in predestination.
...
Named after a seventeenth-century philosopher with a dim view of human nature, Hobbes has the patient dignity and common sense of most animals I've met.

The Calvin and Hobbes Tenth Anniversary Book; pp 22, 23.Remember when Calvin was struggling to resist throwing a slushball at Suzie, because it was almost Christmas and Santa was watching him? But he talked himself into it by reasoning that he was predestined to do it.

I'm sure I remember reading a strip like that (long before I became a Christian or learned about John Calvin). Tonight I've been trying to find it in my C&H books, but I haven't found it yet.

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Turbo
Remember when Calvin was struggling to resist throwing a slushball at Suzie, because it was almost Christmas and Santa was watching him? But he talked himself into it by reasoning that he was predestined to do it.

I'm sure I remember reading a strip like that (long before I became a Christian or learned about John Calvin). Tonight I've been trying to find it in my C&H books, but I haven't found it yet.

This is the only type of "Calvinism" predestination behind which I can get.
:thumb: :chuckle:

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Knight


You and I look at the same Bible verses and you interpret differently than I read it.

I won't argue with you about it.
It is not a salvation issue.
You are Saved whether you believed God called you to Him ("predestined") or it was just some coincidental luck that you fell upon Him.
Either way, I will not continue with you and Poly.
You are too pugnacious.

[Knight]

Oh smaller.... hello....

Let me re-post it.... AGAIN.

Originally posted by smaller

Colossians 1
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Are there EXCEPTIONS to ALL THINGS?

God might actually KNOW what He is doing eh? Of course there are exceptions!!!

Maybe Smaller can answer for us these simple questions....

At creation.....

Did God create love?
Did God create righteousness?
Did God create Himself?

[Knight]

Cricket..... [chirp] [chirp].....

[1Way]

Jobeth - My friend and foe, welcome back to TOL, I hope you are doing well. How are you doing physically?

But, you said. I believe that God is powerful enough to give man a freewill. But He's not that stupid. But free will is a good thing, right, God has a free will, doesn't He?

Then you quoted Poly saying
Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event?
and then you said
(1) Yes, He could. (2) And that is just the kind of world that will exist for those who are separated from God's control. Which would seem to be good for them, since that's what they wanted. (3) But our Lord warned us that they won't actually be happy being separated from God's control. What a dilemma. On the one hand they want to be in Heaven rather than hell, but on the other hand (4) they don't want to give up their free will to live in a world where only God's will is done.

(5) Don't you know that everyone who will get into heaven will have first surrendered their will to God? (6) And if you surrendered you will to God, then how can you claim to still have a will of your own?
(1) - Good for you, you realize that God is powerful enough to be the God of the bible.

(2) - But, I thought you believe that everyone is controlled by God's will. So if you right that everyone and everything is controlled by God's will, then you are wrong to say there will be a world for those outside of God's control. Or said the other way, if your right that there will be a world where God is not in control of people in hell, then you are wrong that everyone and everything is controlled by God.

Which is it Jobeth, God is in control of everything, or not?

(3) - Oh, so some will not be under God's control, but I thought you believe that everything is under God's control. Please make up your mind.

(4) - They don't want to give up their whatttttttt!!!!!!????? You say that they have NOOOOOOOOOO free will, only God has free will, not man. What are you saying? Man does or does not have free will? Make up your mind.

(5) - What????? :freak: I thought that God controlled everything? It's not up to us to surrender anything, we can do nothing, only God does everything. Please make up your mind, do we control some things, or does God control everything? Which is it?

(6) - By letting the truth guide your faith. God says that after we become saved, we are a new creation, His spirit starts living within us working sanctifcation in our life, such that He is constantly working to conform us into Christlikeness. Even the words, surrendering your will to God, establish that it is still your will, and once God has started His good work within us, there is no mention in scripture that this means we have no will of our own anymore, it's that our will is ever being conformed to His. But, again, according to your view, such a thing as submitting our will to God is impossible, there is only one will that exists, and that is God's will and control. So if God wills that someone becomes saved, it is not because that person did anything at all, let alone submit their will to God, you are suggesting that it was God and His doing every step of the way, so you have no business teaching that some people do anything, least of all submit their own will to God.

Back in rare form and as contradictory and self refuting as normal, good to have you back Jobeth, you make God's classical omniscience look as bad as ever!

Here, let me ask you a question. Can God control everything and also at the same time and in the same relationship not control some things? Yes or no?

And as a standard test question for general logic, can yes mean no,
does truth mean false,
does good mean evil,
does right mean wrong,
or are all of these (baically) opposites and do not mean what the other means?

Good luck! :thumb:

[Knight]

Originally posted by 1Way
Back in rare form and as contradictory and self refuting as normal, good to have you back Jobeth, you make God's classical omniscience look as bad as ever!

Here, let me ask you a question. Can God control everything and also at the same time and in the same relationship not control some things? Yes or no?
:thumb:

[Rolf Ernst]

Knight--God can and does do whatsoever He pleases. If He does not please in regard to anything, it is ABSURD to ask, "can God do this?"
His will is done and nothing else can or will be done. And He does not entertain absurdities. "Who is he who says and it comes to pass when the Lord has not commanded it?" Rather than rail against it, just try to understand it. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so his ways are above our ways, and His thoughts above our thoughts. Reject it and wallow in futility, but you can't defeat it.

[godrulz]

Quick question:

I assume most Open Theists lean to libertarian freedom of the will (at least significant, genuine moral freedom).

Calvinism seems to overemphasize the will of God at the expense of other free will moral agents.

How does Enyart and others here conclude that salvation is unconditional (OSAS)? This seems to be a logical conclusion of Calvinism (unconditional eternal security; perseverance of the saints; irrisistable grace; unconditional election). Arminianism (and Open Theism) generally supports conditional eternal security (possibility of becoming apostate).

This is debated elsewhere (Jerry Shurgart= baptismal regeneration thread). Without getting into the debate, what is the short response to OSAS held by those who uphold free will (I guess I have not go to that chapter in "The Plot". A response would benefit those who do not own the book)?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Knight--God can and does do whatsoever He pleases. If He does not please in regard to anything, it is ABSURD to ask, "can God do this?"
His will is done and nothing else can or will be done. And He does not entertain absurdities. "Who is he who says and it comes to pass when the Lord has not commanded it?" Rather than rail against it, just try to understand it. As the heavens are higher than the earth, so his ways are above our ways, and His thoughts above our thoughts. Reject it and wallow in futility, but you can't defeat it. Sorry but I really cannot make heads nor tails as to what point you are attempting to make.

[Knight]

Originally posted by godrulz
How does Enyart and others here conclude that salvation is unconditional (OSAS)? This seems to be a logical conclusion of Calvinism (unconditional eternal security; perseverance of the saints; irrisistable grace; unconditional election). Arminianism (and Open Theism) generally supports conditional eternal security (possibility of becoming apostate).
It's a myth that eternal security is a open view vs. closed view issue.

If God tells those in the Body that they are secure... who can say otherwise?

Romans 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[godrulz]

Nothing external can separate us from the love of God. Sin and rebellion can and does separate us from a holy God. If we have free will that does not have a causative force (God) behind it, WE can sever the relationship. Love, by definition, involves the equal possibility of choosing another's highest good or choosing selfishness as the supreme choice.

Either salvation is a reconciled love relationship that must be freely entered into and maintained (morals), or it is an irrevocable metaphysical change ('born again' irrevocably, rather than as a metaphor).

[1Way]

godrulz - I believe that it's the mechanism that you are confused about. In Calvinism, the unconditionality of (OSAS) is because of God's sovereign will/choice/foreknowledge, take your pick, God fore something individuals to salvation. Since's God's fore whatever is never wrong, those who are saved are saved without a doubt. But that is nothing like Enyart's views as taught from scripture. We in the body of Christ are secure in Him. So, if you expect to see Jesus in heaven, and you are in Christ, then you will be in Heaven too. That is not unconditionality, that is based upon the condition that we are in Him. If we meet that condition, then we are going to be in heaven as assuredly as Jesus is and will be. The conditional salvation teachings are for the circumcision believers such that you could loose your salvation, thus we have teachings like being blotted out of the book of life, and forgive others if you want God to forgive you, etc.

Don't forget that only we are sealed for the day of redemption, and even if we are faithless, He remains faithful, He will not reject HIMSELF. See, God considers us in Him so much, that even if we become without faith, God will not reject --) Jesus. (-- !!! God considers us that secure in Him. !!! These BIBLICAL teachings are brought to you by Paul who gave them to us, naturally they are NOT from any of the circumcion, their teaching is for another dispensation.

You see, it is really your understanding of so much manmade trumplery that confuses you and makes it hard for you to fit all the pieces together. Learn to grasp ahold of God's word and hold loosely, VERY loosely your own manmade understandings.

Your trying to run before your walking. Get the bible overview in first, then these sorts of details will fit naturally and effortlessly into place.

You said 1 - Nothing external can separate us from the love of God. 2 - Sin and rebellion can and does separate us from a holy God. 3 - If we have free will that does not have a causative force (God) behind it, WE can sever the relationship. 1 - No, Knight was quoting scripture which carries with it a beautifully developed context, it was talking about us who have "victory in Christ". For those "in Christ", we are secure "in" Him. God's word does not say that "something" can separate us from God (meaning loose our salvation) once we are saved, it says the exact opposite.
2 - Yes, it does, but not as though we could loose our salvation. We who are "in Christ", are secure "in Him". We can loose eternal rewards, but not our salvation.

3 - Please stay on planet reality, we want to understand God's word to direct man's thinking, not the other way around.

God is Lord over salvation, not the open view, nor libertarian realchoice freedom conbablistic liberty openmulinism freewill theism, so if God says that those "in Christ" are secure "in Him", then, we are. It's a God thing, go figure.

You said Either salvation is a reconciled love relationship that must be freely entered into and maintained (morals), or it is an irrevocable metaphysical change ('born again' irrevocably, rather than as a metaphor). :doh: No wonder you have such a hard time understanding God's word, it's true and very different from manmade thought. If you get any less biblical, I'm afraid that we will have to sentence you to a life of bible reading with no philosophical stuff for you.

... I'll give you an irrevocable metaphysical change :eek:

[godrulz]

As I have told Jerry Shugart over and over, IF we are in Christ, we are secure and have eternal life (I think we agree).

The question is: is it possible to be in Christ for years, and later become apostate and reject the truth (like Judas and Charles Templeton)? There can be some mistaken identity (never was a Christian), but this is not true of all former believers....hence, our understanding needs to change.

Robert Shank (Southern Baptist) has refuted the 'perseverance of the saints' in his 1960 book "Life in the Son" (Westcott). He looks at shared texts and proof texts from each view, and puts them in their context.

Arminians use foreknowledge as the mechanism to explain how God knows who will be saved, without negating free will.

Calvinists use predestination (TULIP) and the will of God to support unconditional eternal security (you are in this camp, despite the diversion to try to say salvation is conditional on being in Christ- exactly what a Calvinist would say).

If I could be so bold (in my vast ignorance and humility), I think you and Enyart error by making too much of dispensationalism and judging what is about the circumcision vs uncircumcision (eisogetical, subjective pre-conceived theological 'glasses').

Open Theism is not logically or theologically compatible with exhaustive foreknowledge or OSAS for believers (conditional eternal security= if you abide in Christ and persevere to the end, you will be saved; if you turn into a reprobate, God-hater, you will not be saved).

Please DO NOT take me out of your will or good books (as if I was ever there)!



:shocked: :help:

[1Way]

Oh ye of little retention span - I'd much rather have my understanding of being secure in Christ than yours which is really not being secure in Christ. Don't forget that only we are sealed for the day of redemption, and even if we are faithless, He remains faithful, He will not reject HIMSELF. See, God considers us in Him so much, that even if we become without faith, God will not reject --) Jesus. (-- !!! God considers us that secure in Him. !!! These BIBLICAL teachings are brought to you by Paul who gave them to us, naturally they are NOT from any of the circumcion, their teaching is for another dispensation. God teaches that even if we become faithless, that is without faith in God, He remains faithful, He can not reject HIMSELF.



Honestly, I think you like to regurgitate much more than you do digest.


I think you'd make a good truck driver since most of the time is spent traveling and only some of the time is spent after you have arrived. The trip is a struggle but the arival is easy. You like the journey and not the destination, you like the work in progress not the finished results, you like to struggle against instead of resting in (the truth?). Ok, that last bit was a bit harsh, but really, your version of security is not consistent, and your idea of faith is about as manmade as could be. Don't you like God's word?

Maybe you think that God's seal for the day of redemption is not a very secure thought, like what? Maybe God sometimes forgets to seal some? Or some of His seals are a bit outdated and their staying power just might give way under the awesome power of man's might? Or ???

Don't you trust God when He said that He will NOT reject Himself? I mean what in the world are you biblically talking about???

[godrulz]

Well, that is breaking some sort of rule of logic and sound thinking.

I am surprised that an Open Theist cannot see the contradictory Calvinistic assumptions and conclusions that have crept in on this one area of truth. There is a more Arminian/Open Theist way to understand those proof-texts.

Perhaps we should recognize our limitations as truck drivers and paramedics, and not pretend to be amateur theologians (I think you are wrong on this point of OSAS).

[1Way]

godrulz - You said Well, that is breaking some sort of rule of logic and sound thinking.

I am surprised that an Open Theist cannot see the contradictory Calvinistic assumptions and conclusions that have crept in on this one area of truth. There is a more Arminian/Open Theist way to understand those proof-texts. First sentence is you basically saying that you disagree with me, as I would say that you can honestly show nothing of what I have said to be as you characterized it.

As to the second bit, name one single Calvinistic or contradictory assumption that has crept in? And don't beg the question with conclusions, I agree with the Calvinists on OSAS but only for this dispensation and in a completely different way than they do. OSAS is NOT a Calvinistic teaching, security of the saints is Pauline through and thru. Just as I suggest I have already exposed you for being a bit off base concerning miracles, you agreed with Freak about them against Enyart's teaching, and I admit I am assuming that your lack of arguments against my defense of Enyart's teachings implied a general consent to the same, in perhaps a similar way, you are honestly speaking your mind about what you believe here and now, yet your thoughts so far do not demonstrate a good working knowledge of open theism and dispensationalism as they relate to Calvinism on this issue. You could not be more wrong, and I dare say, it is your almost constant focus and familiarity with the manmade mainstream stuff like Calvinism and such that is blinding you, even here and now, I presented God's word for my understanding of OSAS, and although it was just a brief snapshot, yet you offer NO biblical grounds for attacking my view, instead you turn to your old favorite, manmade philosophy and understanding as though such things are the source of determining eternal truth. :doh:

Please answer fully
Please re-examine what I gave you as being the grounds for my view, hint, they are all from the bible. From there, you need to expose how my understanding of those teachings/arguments is wrong. Hint, do so from scripture. Lastly, to see if you even understand my understanding of that one passage where God replaced Himself for us, do you understand my understanding of that passage? Namely, answer the following.

Do you expect Jesus Christ to be accepted by God and thus be in heaven?

Do you have the same confidence that those in Christ will be there too, no matter their lack of faith in God?

I understand the answer to those questions as being a joyous yes. If you don't, then you don't understand square one, and if you do understand, then you should have no problem with this sort of security, it is very clear and very clear, and for that matter, quite clear.

How about the HS sealing us for the day of redemption, that teaching can not fit into your anti-OSAS ideas, right? Does the HS sometimes forget to seal a believer? These are serious questions that you are not dealing with. Does the HS always remember to seal but sometimes God's seal for the day of redemption is not a fresh seal, it's stale and brakes down so that the believer may slip away sometime prior to the day of redemption. ???


"irrevocable metaphysical change" :eek:

[1Way]

I am greatful, and thank God for our time together,,, may our lives be guided by God's ways, honoring Him and His word in the process.

[1Way]

I loved Poly's first post of this thread! That is some serious food for thought, and blessed my soul greatly. Underlines are mine for added emphasis, plus added a line space for more white space distribution between para's. ;)

:first:

I touched on this on another thread but I want to get other views on this. Does Calvinism limit God? Those that believe God predestined everything must admit one of 2 things. Either God was not powerful enough to give man a true freewill or He was powerful enough but instead chose to pre-program everybody's will.

Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event? If your answer is no then you limit God. If your answer is yes then you have to either deny predestination or believe He chose this way though He didn't have to. So why would a loving God choose to pre-arrange a woman being raped, a person being murdered, etc.? If you say it is to bring about His glory, is He not powerful enough to bring it about without this having to happen? I say He is. I say that since He truly is the living and loving God, if there be any other way to bring about His glory without having to do that which is against His nature then of course He would go this route. I believe He is so powerful, infact, that His glory will be established despite the evil of man. He's so powerful, He could give man his very own freewill yet man's own wickedness will never take away from God's power, glory and sovereignty. Amen Poly, and the goodness and righteousness of God conforms to your understanding without a doubt, that was excellent. And to the natural objection from the other side, that His ways are higher than our ways, I love the biblical retort, ya, but God's ways are not lower than our ways! :eek: It's wrong to do or support or not oppose evil, so God having a permissive will over all evil (sinful immoral wicked etc., not righteous punishment/destruction) that ever happened is an evil and ungodly teaching. God's righteous eternal standard of right and wrong are not arbitrary nor represent a dual standard, we are to be like Jesus, and His ideas of right and wrong are to be our ideas too. Amazing and unplumbed are the depths of God's ways/understanding, but we have a huge clue in as brilliantly produced by God in His word to us, the bible.

Its so good (and fun) to rub shoulders with Christians who not only think for themselves, they do so with such devotion and care to God and His word.

:thumb: :o

[1Way]

This totaly cracked me up, a most excellent post! From Knight this thread post 16 responding to Jobeth.

:first:

Jobeth said Freewill is a human myth based on a Satanic lie. Knight said
ROTFL..... :D
JoBeth.... don't you realize what you are saying?

You claim God controls every aspect of every created being.

Therefore IF freewill is a Satanic lie THEN freewill is a Satanic lie created and directed by God! Right you are Knight, and if God established such a thing, it must be a good thing, so why is Jobeth attacking what God has done, why not say that murder and rape and suicide and abortion are all as much a part of God's will as prayer and loving kindness and grace and justice. She should never attribute such godly things to Satan or any other objectionable thing, she should just say that everything including all vial wicked evil is simply more evidence of God at work! :mad: ugh, What a complete contradiction to godliness and eternal truth. Jobeth is a living contradiction, by her personal and moral actions, she is like any other Christian, I personally met her while passing thru her local, she is a very friendly and likeable person, but when she gets to explaining her faith, it's about as rotten and contradictory as it gets. I care for her, but my caring is not hypocritical to that which is evil, thus she is my friend and foe, I oppose her because of a (genuine) good godly care for God and His ways, which by the way, for Jobeth's account, are not evil and sinful.

:thumb: :o

[Knight]

Man... if anyone ever wants to silence "smaller" simply ask him these questions....

At creation.....

Did God create love?
Did God create righteousness?
Did God create Himself?

[godrulz]

Do I understand correctly that a believer with free will can decide to hate God and be in the same state as a reprobate unbeliever and still be saved because he was sealed at some point in his life?

This is the antithesis of Pauline thought and shows a gross lack of understanding of the nature of salvation as a love relationship that must be freely entered into and maintained (universal truth for all dispensations).

[Rolf Ernst]

Man's power to WILL does not translate necessarily into the power to DO. Man may WILL something altogether different from the purpose God has in the actions they will take as they attempt to work their will. In every instance, it will be God's purpose that is fulfilled. It very often happens that the actions of men produce results of which they had no intention; maybe not even expected.
An example is the American space program. Men have been trying to find the key to origins in the heavens--unsuccessfully; but many advancements of science have resulted from the space program which men did not anticipate.

[Mr Potato Head]

"Do not merely listen to the words and so deceive yourselves, DO what it says"... seems to me like man can do. Oh, maybe you mean that God determines all our steps, good or bad. In fact, today's the anniversery of Roe v. Wade, which is, ironically enough, one of God's most influential works in this country in the last half century. I mean, all because of him (not man, man cannot do, obviously) millions of babies have been killed in the last 31 years. I mean, that's impressive. Think of all the contributions God could have made them give to social security! But no, he saw it fit to slaughter millions. But everything that happens is for good. Even when my friends went to protest God's actions today, they were all working together with the liberals/infanticists for the greater glory of the Almighty. Praise Jesus!

[Rolf Ernst]

Mr. Potato Head--Trying to blame God for the evil men do? One of God's most common judgements against those who turn against Him is to give them up to the evil of their own nature. Did you hear that?
The evil of their "own" nature.
In common grace, He often restrains that evil nature; but when His longsuffering passes, He releases that restraint and they plummet into evil as a consequence of their "own" nature. As a result, their "own" nature ALSO brings judgement upon them; and the evil they do is often a form of judgement upon their victims. If a death results, that is no basis upon which to cast accusations against God because all men are condemned to death as a consequence of sin. Death is death no matter what the means, and God has the right to take transgressors off the earth by any means He pleases at whatever stage of their life He pleases. Even when His purpose in someome's death is fulfilled by an evil person, He still reserves the
right to execute judgement against the guilty person who took the life out of evil intent and evil purpose.

[jobeth]

Originally posted by Sealeaf

You can't surrender what you don't actually have.
You are correct. And I apologize. The confusion is entirely my fault because I wasn't as precise as I ought to have been.

I said those who get to heaven will have first "surrendered their will to God" when I should have said they have "surrendered the notion that they have a freewill".

Thank you for pointing that out.

[jobeth]

Originally posted by 1Way

Jobeth - My friend and foe, welcome back to TOL, I hope you are doing well. How are you doing physically?
I'm doing well now. Thank you for inquiring about me. Did I tell you that it turned out I had a tumor in my small intestine? I had surgery a year ago to remove it. Even the surgeon was surprised.
How's your stomach problems going?
But free will is a good thing, right, God has a free will, doesn't He?
Nothing is impossible for God. We say that God necessarily exists because there is no world (possible or impossible) where God is "excluded". In the set of "all worlds", there are only some of them that are "possible" to exist.
For instance, the "non-existent" world - represented like the "empty set" { } - is not possible to exist. "Not existing" is ontologically true for the "non-existent" world, { }. And yet, God "exists" as Truth, even for the empty set, because it is "true" that in the "non-existeny" world, nothing exists.

This is why I am working on a book to explain all this. (Remember I drew you a picture showing the 4 kinds of worldviews, two of which are a circle within a circle?) People are so confused about about "possible worlds" and "singularities" and "worldviews" and such. But they haven't really considered what they are saying. They just "imagine" that they "know" what they are talking about. I hope my book will help them, especially since I will include lots of pictures for the concepts that are hard to follow.

Good for you, you realize that God is powerful enough to be the God of the bible.
Yes, Dwayne. You are not more powerful than God. And I wish you would quit insinuating that you could whip His butt if you wanted to. Because you cannot. Even Satan, who is also more powerful than you, doesn't make such a ridiculous claim.

But, I thought you believe that everyone is controlled by God's will. So if you right that everyone and everything is controlled by God's will, then you are wrong to say there will be a world for those outside of God's control. Or said the other way, if your right that there will be a world where God is not in control of people in hell, then you are wrong that everyone and everything is controlled by God.
I am speaking of two different "worlds". One world is this one where God controls everything. The other is the "World to Come", which does not yet exist and is actually two separated worlds. In the World to Come, God will have One World (aka the new heaven and new earth) where God is "with" His people, and the other world (aka Outer darkness) where hell, death, and the grave are cast far, far "away" from God's care and control.

Which is it Jobeth, God is in control of everything, or not?God DOES control everything. But in the World to Come, He will lord over only those who are "with" him. (i.e. the God-possessed) The others are cast away and He remembers them no more.

Oh, so some will not be under God's control, but I thought you believe that everything is under God's control. Please make up your mind.
Yes, God controls everything. He is Lord over ALL, whether they acknowledge Him or not. Even those who are "cast into outer darkness" do not go there of their own free will. Rather they are cast there against their will and without their consent.

They don't want to give up their whatttttttt!!!!!!????? You say that they have NOOOOOOOOOO free will, only God has free will, not man. What are you saying? Man does or does not have free will? Make up your mind.
I have made up my mind that God controls everything. You must reason for yourself whether God is Lord or not.
If God is Lord, then you serve Him alone, (contrary to what you were taught) For how can you disobey an omnicausal God?

Actually, all things serve Him. The world was made by Him AND for Him. Oh, and you thought He made the world to serve us and our purposes and schedules? God made all things for Himself. (Prov 16:4)
I thought that God controlled everything? It's not up to us to surrender anything, we can do nothing, only God does everything. Please make up your mind, do we control some things, or does God control everything? Which is it?
God controls everything whether you believe it or not. It is only reasonable that if God controls everything, you cannot logically cling to the notion of free will. So if you claim to have a freewill, then you simply don't know God.

1 John 2:4 (KJV)
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

By letting the truth guide your faith. God says that after we become saved, we are a new creation, His spirit starts living within us working sanctifcation in our life, such that He is constantly working to conform us into Christlikeness.
And what did Christ say?
John 5:19 (ESV)
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

So if Christ says "I do nothing of my own will and agency", then can't we say the same?
Even the words, surrendering your will to God, establish that it is still your will, and once God has started His good work within us, there is no mention in scripture that this means we have no will of our own anymore, it's that our will is ever being conformed to His.
1 John 2:5 (ESV)
but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:
But, again, according to your view, such a thing as submitting our will to God is impossible, there is only one will that exists, and that is God's will and control. So if God wills that someone becomes saved, it is not because that person did anything at all, let alone submit their will to God, you are suggesting that it was God and His doing every step of the way, so you have no business teaching that some people do anything, least of all submit their own will to God.
Surrendering your will is not a work we do of our own agency. Rather, it is more like the first breathe a baby takes when entering the world. It is done "automatically" at birth.

First God reveals himself as He truly is - the Omnicausal One God. Immediately, we perceive the truth and our notions of freewill desert us. I use the term "surrender" because that is how I was taught. It's the surrender of ectasy. We surrender TO overwhelming love.

Back in rare form and as contradictory and self refuting as normal, good to have you back Jobeth, you make God's classical omniscience look as bad as ever!

Here, let me ask you a question. Can God control everything and also at the same time and in the same relationship not control some things? Yes or no?
Of course not. If God is actually LORD OF ALL, like He claims, then you cannot at the same time be LORD OF YOURSELF, unless you are DELUDED.
2 Thes. 2:11 (KJV)
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

[jobeth]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst
In every instance, it will be God's purpose that is fulfilled. It very often happens that the actions of men produce results of which they had no intention; maybe not even expected. I agree!

What they call "evil", God meant for good.

There is no such thing as "unnecessary evil".

[Mr Potato Head]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst Mr. Potato Head--Trying to blame God for the evil men do? One of God's most common judgements against those who turn against Him is to give them up to the evil of their own nature. Did you hear that?
The evil of their "own" nature.
In common grace, He often restrains that evil nature; but when His longsuffering passes, He releases that restraint and they plummet into evil as a consequence of their "own" nature. As a result, their "own" nature ALSO brings judgement upon them; and the evil they do is often a form of judgement upon their victims. If a death results, that is no basis upon which to cast accusations against God because all men are condemned to death as a consequence of sin.

:thumb: Agreed!


Death is death no matter what the means, and God has the right to take transgressors off the earth by any means He pleases at whatever stage of their life He pleases. Even when His purpose in someome's death is fulfilled by an evil person, He still reserves the
right to execute judgement against the guilty person who took the life out of evil intent and evil purpose.

God certainly has the right to destroy little babies. He did create them. I'm not doubting that. But can you see Jesus saying "let the little children come to me and while here take some to my left to the abortionist and others to the right to the child molester"?

It is not at all consistent with God's character, I'm not talking about what he can and cannot do.

[1Way]

Jobeth - You said I'm doing well now. Thank you for inquiring about me. Did I tell you that it turned out I had a tumor in my small intestine? I had surgery a year ago to remove it. Even the surgeon was surprised.
How's your stomach problems going? No, at least I don't think so, wow, that is great news! Any problems since? My stomach issues are not much better, but I'm about to make a lifestyle change such that hopefully the stress in my life will start to lower somewhat. Actually, I just had one of the most stressful things happen to me in years and years, ,,, I wrecked my truck I was driving for the company! I'm alright except for a highly damage ego and fractured self esteem, but I'm trying to look at it as positively as possible, although the level of humility and humiliation I am going through is exceeding, sometimes a dose of humility is a very good thing, even if it's forced upon you. I just wasn't being as careful as I should have been, and I wrecked the entire truck and trailer, it was a mess. I still have my job, and my back (and entire body) is sore after participating in the clean up effort which entailed a day and a half in fridged freezing weather with wind chills and an already agravated sore back which occasionally bothers me. And to top it all off, this is my last week working for them full time, I am going part time so that I would have more time to take care of home issues, which represent a huge backlog. ,,, but, thanks for asking. :o

Don't have time for more right now, just had to say that it's good to hear that evidently you are doing better! Another thing to be thankful to God about. Catch you later.

[1Way]

Opps, sorry Jobeth, I do remember you saying something about it might be cancer... That was the last I remember, so how have you been since? Any signs of re-occuring cancer or other health problems?

BTW, Jobeth, the problem is not about imaginary and unbiblical "necessary" vrs "unnecessary" evil/sin, the problem is that evil is never good and godly. NEVER! Remember, sin (evil/unrighteousness/ungodliness) is that which goes against God and His righteousness? That being the case, all sin and evil refutes the notion that God is the only free will, because all sin and evil and unrighteousness and ungodliness comes from somewhere else other than our God.

Woe to (folks like) you who switch good and evil, light and dark, sweet for bitter, thus "where is the God of Justice".



Jobeth, do you believe in absolute right and wrong?

Is God's justice arbitrary or absolute?

Is God the father of all evil?

Are you remotely awake yet? :eek:

[Rolf Ernst]

POTATO HEAD--Your post #71 shows that you stubbornly cling to the blasphemous idea that God's motivation in evils MUST BE AS WICKED AS THOSE WHO EXECUTE THOSE DEEDS.
According to you, God's motivation could not have been from a holy and just purpose when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery as Joseph himself said years later--"You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." You want Him to be as blameworthy as Joseph's brothers. According to YOU, He could NOT have meant it for good.
According to YOU, when a baby dies in an abortion mill God can't clear Himself of guilt on the justice of His sentence of death pronounced against sin. You defy God's RIGHT to take action on the basis of His justice because you prefer to charge HIM with the wickedness of the human (??) who took that life not as a just penalty against sin, but out of self-interest and irresponsibility.
According to YOU, when a nation tramples under foot the Son of God, considers His blood to be unholy, and does despite to the Spirit of grace God has no right to execute judgement against them by giving them over to the evil that is in their OWN nature.
NEWS FOR YOU MR. POTATO HEAD--God, in wrath against an evil people who have scoffed against Him, has the RIGHT to take vengeance and execute judgement by removing from them the help of His common grace which earlier restrained the EVIL of their own nature. And when they do the evils which He had earlier protected them from, MR POTATO HEAD, it is by His JUSTICE that the EVIL of their OWN nature then becomes the instrument of His holy wrath AGAINST them--just as He is now executing judgement against wicked people in this country by giving them up to the EVIL of SLAYING THEIR OWN CHILDREN.
But it is not likely that YOU WANT DELIVERANCE FROM THAT PARTICULAR FORM OF EVIL.
Psalm 81:11,12 "But my people would not hearken to my voice; and Israel would have none of me, so I GAVE THEM UP TO THEIR OWN HEART'S LUST AND THEY WALKED IN THEIR OWN COUNSELS."
That is God's RIGHT, but have YOU cried out to Him to deliver YOU from the EVIL OF YOUR OWN WAY?
"The Word of God is quick and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword; piercing to the dividing asunder of joints and marrow and is a discerner of the thoughts and intent of the heart."

[Poly]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

POTATO HEAD--Your post #71 shows that you stubbornly cling to the blasphemous idea that God's motivation in evils MUST BE AS WICKED AS THOSE WHO EXECUTE THOSE DEEDS.
According to you, God's motivation could not have been from a holy and just purpose when Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery as Joseph himself said years later--"You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good." You want Him to be as blameworthy as Joseph's brothers. According to YOU, He could NOT have meant it for good.

Why do you limit God? Why do you make Him out to be less powerful than He truly is? You, along with countless others think God pre-arranged for all of this to happen to Joseph. You think He wanted evil to take place before the good. Was He not powerful enough to have good come about without bringing about evil? The God of the bible that I see is one who can still cause Joseph's brother's to bow to him regardless of Joseph, by his complete freewill, opening his big mouth about it. According to YOU, when a baby dies in an abortion mill God can't clear Himself of guilt on the justice of His sentence of death pronounced against sin. You defy God's RIGHT to take action on the basis of His justice because you prefer to charge HIM with the wickedness of the human (??) who took that life not as a just penalty against sin, but out of self-interest and irresponsibility.
This is sick and disgusting! It's bad enough to say that babies deserve to have their limbs torn apart, their brains sucked out of their heads and to be slaughtered like animals but to say that God is behind all of this, cheering the abortionists on, pleased all the way, "Yeah, cut up that child! This is exactly what I want!" is sick beyond words. I don't appreciate you attributing this to my God. If somebody said false things about my Earthly father, you better know I'm going out of my way to set the record straight. So when somebody wrongly accuses my heavenly father of this most vile and wicked evil of man, it infuriates me BIG TIME!!

[1Way]

Isa 5:20 - Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Am 5:15 - Hate evil, love good; Establish justice in the gate. It may be that the Lord God of hosts Will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph.

Mal 2:17 - You have wearied the Lord with your words; Yet you say, "In what way have we wearied Him?" In that you say, "Everyone who does evil Is good in the sight of the Lord, And He delights in them," Or, "Where is the God of justice?"

Jobeth and Rolf Ernst don't even demonstrate a working knowledge of one of the most basic and immature teachings from the bible, that God is good and wants good things to happen, and evil and sin is bad and God always opposes such things. I think most learned that at or before elementary school, but those two must have had a drastic educational shift, from righteous to evil. I love :cloud9: righteousness :jump: and I hate evil :mad: , and although I am not nearly perfect at living that out :nono: , it is a tremendous joy to understand and experience non-hypocritical love which naturally abhors evil. Those two are plainly condemned by God's word for attributing evil to God, which is evil for good, and dishonoring God instead of honoring Him and His righteous character which abhors evil, not DOES evil.

Do you know what mm's are? Moral Morons. :eek: :dunce: duh, what is evil, what is good, God's will is for both, duh, right? duh, yep, God does evil and good both and His good nature somehow makes the evil that God does, into "good godly ungodliness" and of course there the ever popular "righteous unrighteousness" and the "down home down right divine evil, sin and iniquity", and last but not least, don't forget about dear old "godly wickedness" and "upright and morally good immorality". :radar: :kookoo:

[Mr Potato Head]

Rolf Ernst said:
According to YOU, when a nation tramples under foot the Son of God, considers His blood to be unholy, and does despite to the Spirit of grace God has no right to execute judgement against them by giving them over to the evil that is in their OWN nature.

And Mr Potato Head said before:
God certainly has the right to destroy little babies. He did create them. I'm not doubting that. But can you see Jesus saying "let the little children come to me and while here take some to my left to the abortionist and others to the right to the child molester"?


So whom do I believe about what Mr Potato Head believes?

And whom do I believe about what God wants?

Originally said by Jesus
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. (John 3:20)

God does not do evil, and bringing about evil would be doing evil. The Bible does not say God creates evil (except how some translations translate what he is referring to as his just judgment on sinners... see Isaiah 45:7). God is completely opposed to evil. God saw his creation and it was very good. Then evil came into it not from God and it fell. God hates evil. It grieves him. Claiming otherwise is to contradict the Living God.

[jobeth]

Mr Potato Head

Regarding your post #71 of this thread:

I don't know who you were quoting but it was not me.

Can you please edit your post to credit those quotes to the correct person?

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Poly
Does Calvinism limit God?
No.
Open Theism does.
Putting man's will over God's limits God.

[Rolf Ernst]

You too, Poly? You ALSO charge God with evil because of the evil MEN do?? Can't see off the end of your nose far enough to realize that ""The wages of sin is death" and God has the RIGHT to require that price of anyone at any stage of their life even if it be by the hands of wicked HUMANS WHO ARE THE ONES WHO KILL NOT AS A FORM OF JUSTICE, BUT SIMPLY OUT OF SELF-INTEREST AND IRRESPONSIBILITY?
I guess you are one of the Godhaters who despises the FACT that our God is "a consuming fire."
Hear the Scripture, you wicked generation-- "Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I will repay."
I guess you must be horrified that He at one time wiped the earth clean of all humanity except for the eight in the ark. How many infants MR. POLY, do you think died at THAT TIME??????????GIVE ME AN ANSWER--HOW MANY????????????
You unbelieving Arminians have sat before sugar- tongued, ear-ticking preachers for so long that you can feel nothing at the thought of God's just wrath. You run around with syrupy sweet bumper stickers on the back of your car that say, SMIILLLEEE, God luvs YOU!
And you would say that without shame to those whom He hates---
OOOooohh! FORGIVE ME!!! I forgot that you people have torn Psalm 11:5 and 5:11 out of your sticky sweet Bibles.
The contempt that modern Americans have for God is largely due to the fact that you Arminians have for decades REFUSED to declare the whiole counsel of God to blasphemers who believe on the basis of YOUR testimony that God is without any measure of judgement against the wicked.
WAKE UP. IT IS CHRIST WHO WILL TREAD THE "WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD."
Won't those unbelievers who heard about God from YOUR lips be surprised!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jobeth]

Originally posted by 1Way

Jobeth - No, at least I don't think so, wow, that is great news! [quote] Yes, very great news. God is soooo good.
[quote]Any problems since?
Yes, I still have a few problems, but not anything like they were before. I got much sicker after I last saw you. That tumor, they tell me, had grown completely through the wall of the bowel. No wonder I was so sick and in pain! They resected it. I'm just amazed they can do those things and have everything work good as new. We are truly fearfully and wonderfully made by God.
My stomach issues are not much better, but I'm about to make a lifestyle change such that hopefully the stress in my life will start to lower somewhat. Actually, I just had one of the most stressful things happen to me in years and years, ,,, I wrecked my truck I was driving for the company! I'm alright except for a highly damage ego and fractured self esteem, but I'm trying to look at it as positively as possible, although the level of humility and humiliation I am going through is exceeding, sometimes a dose of humility is a very good thing, even if it's forced upon you. I'm so sorry this happened. It sounds like it could have been much worse. Thank God for His grace. You could have been killed! But just as you said, God will surely bring good out of a seemingly awful occurrence.
I just wasn't being as careful as I should have been, and I wrecked the entire truck and trailer, it was a mess.
I can imagine it was a huge mess! What were you thinking?
I still have my job, and my back (and entire body) is sore after participating in the clean up effort which entailed a day and a half in fridged freezing weather with wind chills and an already agravated sore back which occasionally bothers me. And to top it all off, this is my last week working for them full time, I am going part time so that I would have more time to take care of home issues, which represent a huge backlog. ,,, but, thanks for asking.
I just tried to call you. Do you still have the same number?
Don't have time for more right now, just had to say that it's good to hear that evidently you are doing better! Another thing to be thankful to God about. Catch you later.
You are so sweet. That's why I put up with you. But I won't put up with your being cynical and bitter. I am very sorry you are overworked and in pain and under pressure from all sides. But I mean it, Dwayne. You know better than to take your anger and frustration out on other people. All God's children have problems. And we all often make mistakes in what we say.
1 Peter 3:4 (KJV)
But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.

Imitate me.

[Rolf Ernst]

POTATO HEAD--I know that you don't take serious much of the Scripture, but nevertheless, the BIBLE says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I, the LORD, do all these things." Isa.45:6,7
"If a trumpet is blown in the city, will not the people be afraid? If there is evil in a city will not the LORD have done it?" Amos 3:6
I am sorry if you are incapable of understanding that God takes vengeance against the wicked, bringing troubles upon them according to His holy justice, but THAT IS SCRIPTURE. I guess you have been sitting in front of a "preacher" who is under control of the board of deacons and they have warnes him, "only preach velvet tongued, sticky sweet nothings. Tell unbelievers that they are NOT
underf the law, which is an administration of WRATH. Talk to every God hater as if they are under the covenant of grace even though they are Christ rejecters and GRACE comes only through that Christ whom they reject. If I have wrongly addressed this to you, please address your comments to those whom you address by name.
Will you Arminians NEVER learn that when wicked men do wickedly they may be instruments in the hands of God to execute vengeance against evil doers and that He does so in accord with His holy justice, and that no matter how you try you cannot fasten upon Him the guilt of those who act with EVIL motives?? What has blinded your mind that you cannot comprehend this?????????????????????

[Knight]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

No.
Open Theism does.
Putting man's will over God's limits God. Tye... have you ever considered following the debate?

How about reading the posts and the responses we make?

Wouldn't it be more profitable for you to argue against an accurate version of what we think and say instead of the staw man version you create and then knock down?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mr Potato Head
God does not do evil, and bringing about evil would be doing evil. The Bible does not say God creates evil (except how some translations translate what he is referring to as his just judgment on sinners... see Isaiah 45:7). God is completely opposed to evil. God saw his creation and it was very good. Then evil came into it not from God and it fell. God hates evil. It grieves him. Claiming otherwise is to contradict the Living God. :first: POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12284)

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Poly
Could God not create life on this Earth without predestinating every event?

If not, may every prisoner be set free and may God be locked up in their place.

[1Way]

Jobeth - You said But just as you said, God will surely bring good out of a seemingly awful occurrence. Considering the context of this discussion, such a comment is quite inaccurate. Nothing good comes from something bad, good and bad are opposites for a good reason. My humility towards self correction is a good RESPONSE, to a bad thing, the bad thing did not produce the good, the good response produced the good.

As to You are so sweet. That's why I put up with you. But I won't put up with your being cynical and bitter. I am very sorry you are overworked and in pain and under pressure from all sides. But I mean it, Dwayne. You know better than to take your anger and frustration out on other people. Please refer to me by my handle on this public forum. You just attacked one of the main reasons I appreciate you. You always defended me in truth like when others tried to falsely accuse me, and now you do the opposite and even make a false charge against me. I have not treated you or anyone else here as you said. I know how to escalate godly opposition to an escalating offense. Ignorant mistakes are easily corrected, but if someone does not stand corrected by the truth, then a defiant rebelliousness represents a clear case for escalation.

Imitate you? God or you? God is known for saying that, but good leaders are good examples for others to follow. Generally speaking, women do not lead men. But, I'll gladly grant you that you are exemplary in displaying a meek and peaceful spirit, which is one of the things that God deeply appreciates. But people can and do mistake being kinder than God as such kind meekness, but you can not be nicer than God, some people try to be, but they only hurt themselves and others. God does not appreciate a meek humble acting blasphemers, meekness is not an end all quality, neither is love. You can be a meek and loving God hater, so lets not forget about the entire scope of scripture about what God appreciates and what He most certainly does not.

He also appreciates those who deal uprightly with the truth and accords themselves with the doctrine of godliness, and putting good for evil is the opposite of pleasing God.

How about instead of ignoring the majority of what I said, and attacking me, deal with what I have said especially because of the bible teachings I quote which serve to condemn you and those like you. God is the one I am trusting in all this, I think you place more trust in errant men than you do God, that is the only way one can ever say the vial things you say about God. God is good and righteous, but to you, He is what caused everything evil and bad, yet God hates those things and you seem to appreciate them and worse, attribute them to God.

I'm not bitter because I stand up for a righteous understanding of God, I'm loving because God's word taught me about His goodness and righteousness when I was a little tike. If you searched the truth out about God, and somewhat because of your own kind personality, I would hope that you could understand that God really is good and righteous and just. Remember, righteous means doing NO wrong, just means opposing wickedness, good means the opposite of bad/sin/evil. You can't reinvent God, He is good, He is righteous, He is just, and He is faithful and true! Well, you can try in a vain effort to reinvent God, but thank goodness that God refutes your view to no end.

You are my foe concerning "the truth" and "the way" and "the doctrine of godliness" to name a few, because you oppose every one of them by attributing evil to God. But you've known that all along. And if you dare suggest that God does evil because the bible plainly says so, I will have no fellowship with you because we both know how putrefied that notion is and how I demonstrated for example that "ra" (=Hebrew for bad/ruin/evil/calamity etc.) is a contextually modified "bad". It can be moral bad like evil/wrongdoing, or amoral bad like destruction or calamity or ruin, etc. I even showed you God's use of that same exact word where God used it speaking of an animal's blemish or discoloration, which was something that simply did not "look good", something that looked "bad", to prove that God's use of the word "ra" does not necessarily mean "moral evil". God does amoral ra, so God doing ra is better understood as God doing some sort of (righteous) punishment, not God doing moral evil. Or did you forget how God's word refutes your view? Or is your memory getting as bad as mine is?

[Mr Potato Head]

Originally posted by jobeth
Mr Potato Head

Regarding your post #71 of this thread:

I don't know who you were quoting but it was not me.

Can you please edit your post to credit those quotes to the correct person?


Sorry bout that. :doh:

[Mr Potato Head]

POTATO HEAD--I know that you don't take serious much of the Scripture, but nevertheless, the BIBLE says, "I am the LORD, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness. I make peace and create evil. I, the LORD, do all these things." Isa.45:6,7
"If a trumpet is blown in the city, will not the people be afraid? If there is evil in a city will not the LORD have done it?" Amos 3:6
I am sorry if you are incapable of understanding that God takes vengeance against the wicked, bringing troubles upon them according to His holy justice, but THAT IS SCRIPTURE. I guess you have been sitting in front of a "preacher" who is under control of the board of deacons and they have warnes him, "only preach velvet tongued, sticky sweet nothings. Tell unbelievers that they are NOT
underf the law, which is an administration of WRATH. Talk to every God hater as if they are under the covenant of grace even though they are Christ rejecters and GRACE comes only through that Christ whom they reject. If I have wrongly addressed this to you, please address your comments to those whom you address by name.
Will you Arminians NEVER learn that when wicked men do wickedly they may be instruments in the hands of God to execute vengeance against evil doers and that He does so in accord with His holy justice, and that no matter how you try you cannot fasten upon Him the guilt of those who act with EVIL motives?? What has blinded your mind that you cannot comprehend this?????????????????????


Yes.... I know.... God's JUDGMENT is exactly what I was talking about. But if you think abortion is God's judgment against the United States your view of God is pretty dumb. At least if he's gonna judge us he might as well punish US and not the unborn babies. But maybe that's just me.

Secondly, Arminians don't deny God's judgment. And neither do I (seeing as I'm not an Arminian). We just don't attribute the evil acts of people to the God who died for us.

[Poly]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

You too, Poly? You ALSO charge God with evil because of the evil MEN do??
Unfortunately I used to until I stopped taking other people's word for what was truth and actually searched out the bible for myself. I regret each and every day I ever thought that God predestined everything, including all the evil that would ever be committed by man. I'm now free to no end knowing that bad things do not come from God.

"The wages of sin is death" and God has the RIGHT to require that price of anyone at any stage of their life even if it be by the hands of wicked HUMANS WHO ARE THE ONES WHO KILL NOT AS A FORM OF JUSTICE, BUT SIMPLY OUT OF SELF-INTEREST AND IRRESPONSIBILITY?
Do you even hear yourself? God has the right to require death of men and it's ok and He sees that this is done by humans who have no right to do this. Wow, that is out there! :kookoo:

I guess you must be horrified that He at one time wiped the earth clean of all humanity except for the eight in the ark. How many infants MR. POLY, do you think died at THAT TIME??????????GIVE ME AN ANSWER--HOW MANY????????????
No doubt, many. And no, I'm not horrified at this in the least. I see a merciful God who, instead of letting man continue in generations of such a downward spiral that they could not know Him, He wiped them out.
You unbelieving Arminians...
Please! Arminians are way to Calvinistic for me. Try Open-theist. have sat before sugar- tongued, ear-ticking preachers for so long that you can feel nothing at the thought of God's just wrath. You run around with syrupy sweet bumper stickers on the back of your car that say, SMIILLLEEE, God luvs YOU!
I'd rather have my pinky cut off than have a bumper sticker that says that or anything else that says that. :vomit:
And you would say that without shame to those whom He hates---
OOOooohh! FORGIVE ME!!! I forgot that you people have torn Psalm 11:5 and 5:11 out of your sticky sweet Bibles.
Psalm 11:5 "The Lord tests the righteous, But the wicked and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Nope, I'm never tearing that one out. You obviously know little about me. I'll be the first one to tell you that the Lord hates the wicked. But how does this prove that God is ok with babies being murdered and that He actually wants this because it's "His right" to give them life and then take it right back from them? Maybe you should read it again. He HATES wickedness, not ordains it.
WAKE UP. IT IS CHRIST WHO WILL TREAD THE "WINEPRESS OF THE FIERCENESS AND WRATH OF ALMIGHTY GOD."

Chill dude. Newsflash! Just because you choose to yell doesn't make what you have to say true. Whispered or shouted, blasphemy is blasphemy.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

:first: POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12284)
Knight,

I must say, your POTD's are quite humorous!

:darwinsm:

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Poly
I'd rather have my pinky cut off than have a bumper sticker that says that or anything else that says that. :vomit:
Pinky??? Why not go for an arm, or a leg? That would be more interesting. :D

[1Way]

Z man - That's funny about suggesting to cut off an arm or a leg instead, ,,, in a grotesque, yet morbid sort of way.

So what is your view? Does God control everything through His declarative and passive/permitting wills? Hence God is ultimately responsible for it all? Or do you believe that there is no such things as sins of omission, just sins of commission?

God's word is unambiguous, if you allow evil to easily happen when you could have stopped it or somehow opposed it, that is an evil thing to "do", to not actively oppose evil.

So how do you rescue God from being the most evil person ever?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by 1Way
So what is your view? Does God control everything through His declarative and passive/permitting wills?
Of course He does.
Hence God is ultimately responsible for it all?
What do you mean when you say "all"?
God's word is unambiguous, if you allow evil to easily happen when you could have stopped it or somehow opposed it, that is an evil thing to "do", to not actively oppose evil.
Of course God opposes evil, but the fact that it exists is evidence itself that God does allow evil to happen. What shape would mankind and the world be in if God did not allow the evilness of His Son's crucifixtion to happen? We'd still be lost!
So how do you rescue God from being the most evil person ever?
More like, how can God rescue man from being the most evil being ever! :shocked:

[Rolf Ernst]

POLY--You say bad things don't come from God? Do you believe that it is possible for the same event to be either good or evil depending upon the perspective from which it is seen? Could I get a yes or no? It is a simple and clear cut issue.
Do you believe that the same event might be in accord with the will of two very different individuals, that an evil person may be willing, even instrumental in the event out of evil motives, and another may be willing the same event yet for a good and just purpose?

After thinking about these two questions, consider the substitutionary atonement of Christ. God the Father's will and purpose was in it. "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him. He has put Him to grief." Isa. 53:10 and the evil intent of men who willed EVIL against Him was also involved "Him being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have crucified by wicked hands and put to death." Acts 2:23

INCIDENTALLY--people might conceivably use capitalizations to draw special attention to certain points. The english language does not have stress marks as do some lang