Only in America

[ebenz47037]

Only in a country like the United States of America, where a small group of the population wants the nation to put a distance between everyday life and God, will you see the millions of murdered unborn babies called a form of birth control. Only in this country will you hear people calling it the "choice of the woman to do what she wants with her own body." That's what I thought when I was old enough to know what abortion meant.

On January 22, 1973, I was only four years old. I didn't know where babies came from, much less that there was now a legal way to kill your baby and not go to prison for it. I found out what abortion was when I was twelve years old, when my sixth grade class seperated the girls from the boys for a day for "sex education." I was horrified that a woman could legally kill her baby.

Legalizing abortion was supposed to help reduce child abuse, since it was assumed most abused children were unwanted at birth. But this theory has been disproven by scientific studies as well as by the evidence that child abuse has sharply increased since abortion became legal.

In 1973, when abortion became legal in the United States, there were 167,000 cases of child abuse and neglect reported. Yet in 1980 there were 785,100 cases - an increase of 370% from 1973. Furthmore, in 1987, there were 2,025,200 cases reported, which represents an increase of 1112% (Source: U.S. Department of Child Abuse and Neglect; National Analysis of Official Child Abuse and Neglect Reporting).

Rather than helping stop child abuse, legal abortion has actually contributed to its sharp rise due to the effects abortion has had on women's self-esteem and the ability to deal with stress. Dr. Phillip Ney, in a widely read study on the connection between abortion and child abuse notes:

"...elective abortion is an important cause of child abuse."

"Recent evidence indicates many women harbour strong guilt feelings long after their
abortions. Guilt is one important cause of child battering and infanticide. Abortion lowers
women's self-esteem in battering parents."

Source: P. Ney, M.D. "Relationship between Abortion and Child Abuse."
Canada Journal of Psychiatry, vol. 24, pp. 610-620.*

In the 1970s, I actually was a victim of physical and mental abuse and neglect from my mother and the men she brought into my and my sisters' lives. I know that the laws defining child abuse have gotten stricter since then. So, I'll leave it to your imagination what would be considered child abuse in the 1970s, in southern California. Even though I suffered from extreme abuse, I am glad my mother did not abort me. I see that as the most brutal form of child abuse known to man.

When I got pregnant with my daughter at age twenty-one, my mother and my ex-husband tried to convince me to get an abortion. My mother's reasons were different from my ex-husband's reasons. My mother said that I should abort the baby so that I could better myself and be able to provide a better life for my future children. My ex-husband told me that he wasn't ready to be a father. I never once considered having an abortion. Even though I was at a point in my life where I had turned my back to God and living a Christian life, I still considered abortion murder.

Everybody says that abortion should be legal because "it's the woman's body. She should have the choice whether she should have the baby or not. Abortion liberates women from having to raise unwanted children." I've heard that so many times that I want to vomit everytime I hear it now. Well, here's the real facts about abortion liberating women:

Abortion Does Not Liberate Women
(copied with permission from Feminists For Life)

Most modern feminists have made easy access to abortion the very symbol of liberation for women. The literature of the National Organization for Women repeatedly refers to abortion as "the most fundamental right of women" - more important even than the right to vote and the right to free speech. NOW has designated the protection of abortion rights as its top priority.

This is ironic, because abortion does not liberate women. On the contrary, abortion - and the perceived need for it - validate the patriarchal world view which holds that women, encumbered as they are by their reproductive capacity, are inferior to men.

Abortion liberates men, not women. There are three reasons for this:

* Efforts to establish abortion as a legitimate solution to the problems of being a woman in a male-dominated society surrender women to pregnancy discrimination. Those feminists who demand the right to abortion concede the notion that a pregnant woman is inferior to a non- pregnant one. They admit that pregnancy and motherhood are incompatible to being a fully functioning adult, and that an unencumbered, unattached male is the model for success. By settling for abortion instead of working for the social changes that would make it possible to combine children and career, pro-abortion feminists have agreed to participate in a man's world under a man's terms. They have betrayed the majority of working women - who want to have children.
* Abortion allows men to escape responsibility for their own sexual behavior. A man whose child is aborted is relieved of the requirement that he support his children. It is not surprising that the Playboy Foundation is a major supporter of abortion rights, because abortion is a natural consequence of the Playboy's ideal of uncommitted, anonymous sex without consequences. Women can be reduced to the status of a consumer item, which if "broken" by pregnancy can be "fixed" by abortion.
* Proabortion feminists have corrupted feminism by embracing male standards, which hold that it is permissible to treat "unequals" unequally, and for the powerful to oppress the weak. By accepting this patriarchal world view, these feminists have capitulated to male dominance. Women who agree to conform to the ideals of a world made by and for men are not liberated; they have merely altered their roles within the patriarchy.

"Feminism is part of a larger philosophy that values all life."

Truly liberated women reject abortion because they reject the male world view that accepts violence as a legitimate solution to conflict. Rather than settling for mere equality -- the right to contribute equally to the evil of the society -- prolife feminists seek to transform society to create a world that reflects true feminist ideals.

Feminism is, properly, part of a larger philosophy that values all life. Feminists believe that all human beings have inherent worth and that this worth cannot be conferred or denied by another. True feminist thinking recognizes the interdependence of all living things and the responsibility we all have for one another. This feminism rejects the male view that sees all individuals as functioning separately from their fellows, in mutual competition.

Abortion is incompatible with this feminist vision. Abortion atomizes women. It pits them against their own children as competitors for the favors of the patriarchy. Abortion is of no great benefit to employers -- who do not have to make concessions to pregnant women and mothers, to schools -- which do not have to accommodate to the needs of parents, and to irresponsible men -- who do not have to commit themselves to their mates or their children. Women who accept abortion have agreed to sacrifice their children for the convenience of a man's world.

Women who have been liberated from male thought patterns refuse to participate in their own oppression and in the oppression of their children They refuse to accept abortion, which denigrates the life-giving capacity of women. They strive instead to create a world that recognizes the moral superiority of maternal thinking and is, therefore, gentle, loving, nurturing, and prolife. Every abortion frustrates this goal and perpetuates the patriarchy. Liberated women will not cooperate. They refuse abortion and all it represents.

This article may be distributed freely as long as credit is given to FFL.

So much for abortion "liberating women." There is no such thing as an unwanted child. The woman who is pregnant may not want the child, but there are plenty of people in the United States who would willingly adopt an "unwanted child." I know this because my late husband and I happened to be a couple would willingly adopt one of those "unwanted children." From 1973 through 1997, approximately thirty-six and a half million "unwanted children" were aborted in the United States.**

Complications After Abortions

As you can see from what I have included below, women who have had abortions tend to have complications with later pregnancies and gynecological problems related to the abortion.

PHYSICAL COMPLICATIONS:

* 24.3% experience complications in future pregnancies. Complications include: excessive bleeding, premature delivery, cervical damage, and sterility.
(Acta/Obstetrics and Gynecology Scandinavia 1979; 58:491-4)
* Pelvic inflammatory disease (PID). A first-trimester abortion can result in bacterial vaginosis, leading to PID, a condition that must be treated quickly.
(American Journal of Obs. and Gyn. 1992; 166:100-103)
* Uterine perforations. Uterine perforations can often occur and sometimes may go unrecognized and untreated.
(Bernadell Technical Bulletin 1989; 1:1:1-2)
* Tubal pregnancy. Abortion appears to contribute to an increase in ectopic pregnancy in younger women when associated with pelvic inflammatory disease. Statistic show a 30% increased risk of ectopic pregnancy after one abortion and a 160% increased risk after two or more abortions.
(American Journal of Obs. and Gyn. 1989; 160:642-6)
(American Journal of Public Health 1982; 72:253-6)
* Placenta previa - a condition producing extremely severe, life threatening bleeding in future pregnancies. Statistics show a 600% increased risk following abortion.
(American Journal of Obs. and Gyn. 1981; 141:769-72)
* Increased bleeding in subsequent pregnancies.
(American Journal of Obs. and Gyn. 1983; 146:136-140)
* Retention of placenta - increased in subsequent pregnancies.
(Acta/Obstetrics and Gynecology Scandinavia 1979; 58:485-490)

MORE PHYSICAL COMPLICATION: HIGH RISK GROUPS

Women Under 20

* 2 times greater risk of medical complications
(Canadian Journal of Public Health 1982; 73:396-400)
* 150% greater risk of cervical injury
(New England Journal of Medicine 1983; 309:621-24)

Women who have had a previous abortion

* 200% increased risk of miscarriage after two or more abortions
(Journal of the American Medical Association 1980:243:2495-9)
* 160% increased risk of tubal pregnancy
(American Journal of Public Health 1982; 72:253-6)
* Increased risk of abnormal positioning of the baby in future pregnancies after one or more abortion.
(American Journal of Obs. and Gyn. 1983; 146:136-140)

Women with previous or existing PID

* Decrease in fertility following an abortion
(Acta/Obstetrics and Gyn. Scandinavia 1979; 58:539-42)
* More days of post-abortion pain and cramping
(Acta/Obstetrics and Gyn. Scandinavia 1982: 61:357-60)
* Increased risk of tubal pregnancy following an abortion
(American Journal of Public Health 1982; 72:253-6)

My Final Words on this

Why would any woman want to have the risk of future problems? Any woman who is considering getting an abortion should study to find out the truth about the risks. Don't just read the pamphlet that the doctor or clinic gives you. Take a couple of weeks to do the research. There is plenty of information available on the internet. If you cannot afford a computer, the public libraries have some that you can use for free.

Think about whether there may be a chance that your "unwanted child" may be wanted very much by someone. It's a very strong possibility that that is the case. If you are poor and cannot afford to take care of the child, don't put the blame on the child. Your circumstances will not change magically just because you decided to kill the child.

If you were raped and became pregnant, don't blame the child. The man who did this to you is the one who deserves your anger. If you cannot bring yourself to raise the product of a violent act, have the child and put it up for adoption. The baby does not deserve to be killed because an adult did something wrong.

If you're a man who "isn't ready to be a father," think about the feelings of the woman. By convincing her to get an abortion, you are telling her to murder her child. You are taking all responsibility away from yourself for this child. Instead of convincing her to abort the baby, talk about putting the baby up for adoption.

Now, for those of you who say, "It makes no sense that someone who is pro-life should be pro-death penalty," yes. I believe in the death penalty. But, I believe in the death penalty for adults who have committed murder. I do not see a contradiction in the two positions because a baby is an innocent. Why should the baby be killed for the mistakes of the adults who are bringing it into the world? And, why should a man or woman who has committed murder be kept alive at tax-payers' expense for twenty years or more? I cannot see the logic in your arguements.


Nori Benz
1/25/04

*Quoted from http://www.roevwade.org/consequences.html; ** from http://www.roevwade.org/rvw1.html

[ebenz47037]

Sorry this is so long, Knight! I started typing and couldn't quit until I was done with my rant. :)

[Pierre]

Truely good writing. There really should be a place on this site for great posts to stand for all time. I think if girls could hear the truth about abortion it would become almost an unprofitable industry for abortion mills. There's a reason why women aren't told what happens during an abortion, they'd back out.

[ebenz47037]

I think that's true, too, Pierre. I get so mad when I try to talk to "pro-choicers." That's why I tend to post articles like this when I see so many threads come up about abortion. I wish I didn't have to do this. But, as long as abortion is considered a viable birth control alternative, I will have the urge to give my opinion about it.

And, thank you for the compliment. I just write what I feel (as a rule). :o

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Pierre

Truely good writing. There really should be a place on this site for great posts to stand for all time. I think if girls could hear the truth about abortion it would become almost an unprofitable industry for abortion mills. There's a reason why women aren't told what happens during an abortion, they'd back out. What are you doing, personally, to promote your beliefs in the place where you live?

[Zakath]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

I think that's true, too, Pierre. I get so mad when I try to talk to "pro-choicers." "Mad", as in "angry"? Do you find your arguments are more convincing to your opponents when you're mad, ebenz?

Generally, when people get angry they end up talking past each other rather than with each other. I've never had a discussion with an angry person that succeeded in changing my mind about anything.

But, as long as abortion is considered a viable birth control alternative, I will have the urge to give my opinion about it. And you should continue. :thumb:

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Zakath

"Mad", as in "angry"? Do you find your arguments are more convincing to your opponents when you're mad, ebenz?

Generally, when people get angry they end up talking past each other rather than with each other. I've never had a discussion with an angry person that succeeded in changing my mind about anything.

Yeah. I know. But, the pro-choicers I've talked to lately tend to just call me an extremist as soon as I say that I don't believe in abortion. :) That's the only reason I stay out of the discussions about abortion here. I see what some people say and start getting mad. Good thing is that the subject doesn't come up too often. I can handle it about every three or four months for a week. :)

And you should continue. :thumb:

Thank you. With a few exceptions, I stay out of the abortion discussions here. I've made it clear what I believe about abortion and that I have tried to do something about lowering the number (although, I've only tried convincing women one at a time). Usually, when I talk a woman out of having an abortion, she ends up deciding to keep the baby instead of aborting or putting it up for adoption.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Zakath

"Mad", as in "angry"? Do you find your arguments are more convincing to your opponents when you're mad, ebenz?


You read my statement. Do you think my arguments are more convincing when I'm mad? What I said in the opening post in this thread was because I got mad at what people were saying about abortion.

[Pierre]

Originally posted by Zakath

What are you doing, personally, to promote your beliefs in the place where you live?

lol... if you only knew...;)

[Pierre]

Originally posted by Zakath

"Mad", as in "angry"? Do you find your arguments are more convincing to your opponents when you're mad, ebenz?

Generally, when people get angry they end up talking past each other rather than with each other. I've never had a discussion with an angry person that succeeded in changing my mind about anything.

Ah yes... debate advice from a coward who skipped out on one of the largest debates on this site.:doh:

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Pierre

lol... if you only knew...;) Translation: not a single thing, aside from impotent hand-wringing...:rolleyes:

[Zakath]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

You read my statement. Do you think my arguments are more convincing when I'm mad? Not really, no. :)

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Pierre

lol... if you only knew...;) But we don't so that's why I asked... based on the information you've provided thus far, I'd say, "nothing."

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Pierre

Ah yes... debate advice from a coward who skipped out on one of the largest debates on this site.:doh: Believe what you will, but the fact was I was unable to continue due to health reasons. The site moderator was privy to that information. Enyart was apparently in a rush to get his book published so he wouldn't wait for me to return.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Zakath

Not really, no. :)

Well, sorry. But, because of the subject matter, I get upset/angry whenever it comes up. There are only two subjects that I get upset about whenever they come up and this is one of them. Actually, you could say that both subjects fall under the same category: hurting children.

I grew up in an abusive and neglective home. So, anytime the subject of harming children in any way comes up, I get more emotional than I do with most subjects. So far, with the attitude that I do have, I've stopped three women killing their babies. Two put them up for adoption and one kept hers. Since I tend to keep away from people in general, I'd say that I've done a decent job so far.

You see, the pro-choicers tend to get angry anytime someone disagrees with their opinion on a woman's right to choose. It doesn't do a lot of good to be all sweet and nice to them while disagreeing with their position. Personally, I think it's better to go ahead and tell people what I think than to keep it to myself and possibly let them kill their babies.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
You see, the pro-choicers tend to get angry anytime someone disagrees with their opinion on a woman's right to choose.

Your beliefs about abortion are totally tied into your belief in an invisible supernatural being. Many people reject having the religious notions of other people, control their lives.

In America we live in a democracy, where the laws are designed to protect the rights of minorities from the mass tyranny of the majority. The (human) "life begins at conception" crowd, are ALL Christian true believers. The fact that this unscientific notion is at the basis of anti-choicers screaming "It's baby murder," is why you all really have no argument. You all are trying so hard, so terribly hard, to make your spiritual arguments, science.

_

[Zakath]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

Well, sorry. But, because of the subject matter, I get upset/angry whenever it comes up. There are only two subjects that I get upset about whenever they come up and this is one of them. Actually, you could say that both subjects fall under the same category: hurting children.

I grew up in an abusive and neglective home. So, anytime the subject of harming children in any way comes up, I get more emotional than I do with most subjects. So far, with the attitude that I do have, I've stopped three women killing their babies. Two put them up for adoption and one kept hers. Since I tend to keep away from people in general, I'd say that I've done a decent job so far. I'm sorry you had a difficult youth. I'm also sorry that you "tend to keep away from people in general". How do you reconcile that last point with "demonstrating" the gospel?

You see, the pro-choicers tend to get angry anytime someone disagrees with their opinion on a woman's right to choose.I'd suggest that some pro-choice advocates get upset, some do not. For those that do, it sometimes has to do with their perception that religious viewpoints have frequently denigrated women and relegated them to second-class status.

It doesn't do a lot of good to be all sweet and nice to them while disagreeing with their position. Personally, I think it's better to go ahead and tell people what I think than to keep it to myself and possibly let them kill their babies. There are many ways to express our opinions. The hard-core guerilla-style tactics favored by some on this board are a great block to winning a hearing with most people. They forget the wisdom of their own proverbs:

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly." - Proverbs 15:1-2

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Your beliefs about abortion are totally tied into your belief in an invisible supernatural being. Many people reject having the religious notions of other people, control their lives.

In America we live in a democracy, where the laws are designed to protect the rights of minorities from the mass tyranny of the majority. The (human) "life begins at conception" crowd, are ALL Christian true believers. The fact that this unscientific notion is at the basis of anti-choicers screaming "It's baby murder," is why you all really have no argument. You all are trying so hard, so terribly hard, to make your spiritual arguments, science.

_

Well, I've seen when you would call the fetus "alive." Even before I was a Christian, I believed that life began at conception. So, sorry. You're wrong about the crowd that believes life begins at conception is entirely Christian.

I don't try hard to make my arguments science. I don't argue from a scientific view (as you should have seen by my first post in this thread). I know that not everyone accepts my view on life beginning at conception.

You, and others that I've talked to, seem to view a fetus as a cancer to be removed. I, and others that are like me, view a fetus as a potential human to be nurtured and allowed to grow into it's full potential. I was this way before I became a Christian. So, that argument will not work with me.

I know about child abuse from first-hand experience. The worst result of child abuse is the devaluation of the life of a child. Abortion devalues the lives of children by calling them a "mass of cells." The end result of severe child abuse is usually the death of the child. Abortion results in the deaths of millions of children. Abortion ranks high on the worst forms of child abuse.

[Knight]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

Sorry this is so long, Knight! I started typing and couldn't quit until I was done with my rant. :) It doesn't look very long to me.

Great post!

[Knight]

Originally posted by Pierre

Ah yes... debate advice from a coward who skipped out on one of the largest debates on this site.:doh: Ironic no? :chuckle:

[Knight]

Originally posted by Zakath

Believe what you will, but the fact was I was unable to continue due to health reasons. The site moderator was privy to that information. Enyart was apparently in a rush to get his book published so he wouldn't wait for me to return. Oh brother.... you are so full of it.

Zakath why lie?

I realize your embarrassed but just take like a man and admit you got pasted.

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz
In America we live in a democracy, where the laws are designed to protect the rights of minorities from the mass tyranny of the majority. The (human) "life begins at conception" crowd, are ALL Christian true believers. The fact that this unscientific notion is at the basis of anti-choicers screaming "It's baby murder," is why you all really have no argument. You all are trying so hard, so terribly hard, to make your spiritual arguments, science.

_ LOL... you are a true idiot aren't you?

What does "democracy" have to do with abortion being legal?????

[rajuncajun]

I stand firmly AGAINST abortion myself.Thank you EBENZ for your thoughts on this issue.I see it as murder no matter what the situation is.Children are a gift of GOD.If women don't want their babies,give them up for adoption,thereare plenty of familes wanting and waiting for kids,babies to raise.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Zakath

I'm sorry you had a difficult youth. I'm also sorry that you "tend to keep away from people in general". How do you reconcile that last point with "demonstrating" the gospel?

Even though I tend to stay away from people, they still see how I act. At home and in public, I live my life as I would if I had people watching my every move.

I'd suggest that some pro-choice advocates get upset, some do not. For those that do, it sometimes has to do with their perception that religious viewpoints have frequently denigrated women and relegated them to second-class status.

Every pro-choicer that I've talked to gets upset in this debate. I don't have to be talking about religion in this matter. I tend not to bring religion or science into the discussion at all when I talk to pro-choicers. Even before I became a Christian, I discussed this issue the same way I do now. And, if they think that religion denigrates women, what do they think of the men who tell their girlfriends/wives that if they don't abort the babies that they'll leave? You never hear about that from pro-choicers.

The three women that I talked out of getting abortions were going to get abortions because their boyfriends had threatened to leave them if they had the babies. To me, that's one of the worst ways to denigrate women.

There are many ways to express our opinions. The hard-core guerilla-style tactics favored by some on this board are a great block to winning a hearing with most people. They forget the wisdom of their own proverbs:

"A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger. The tongue of the wise commends knowledge, but the mouth of the fool gushes folly." - Proverbs 15:1-2

I've already said that I lead people to Christ by example. I don't yell or expound on the dangers of eternal damnation (except in very rare cases). From my own experience, that rarely works. But, I've had people ask me how I can live my life the way I do in today's world. I explain what Christ has done for me and sometimes that works. I wish it would work for everyone, but it doesn't. But, that's what pastors and evangelists are for, to reach the people that I cannot.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Knight

It doesn't look very long to me.

Great post!

Thanks. I did a length check when I was done. But, I didn't want to remove any of it.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

Well, I've seen when you would call the fetus "alive." Even before I was a Christian, I believed that life began at conception. So, sorry. You're wrong about the crowd that believes life begins at conception is entirely Christian.
So originally, you didn't believe in magical beings?
Originally posted by ebenz47037
I don't try hard to make my arguments science. I don't argue from a scientific view (as you should have seen by my first post in this thread). I know that not everyone accepts my view on life beginning at conception.
So, then don't call me a murderer if I want to have an abortion in the first trimester.
Originally posted by ebenz47037

You, and others that I've talked to, seem to view a fetus as a cancer to be removed. I, and others that are like me, view a fetus as a potential human to be nurtured and allowed to grow into it's full potential. I was this way before I became a Christian. So, that argument will not work with me.
A "potential human" isn't human.
And I believe that you are saying (that you believe) that a "fetus, as a potential human,( ought to )be nurtured and allowed to grow to it's full potential. The "ought to" is the Christian morality that is coming out. You guys believe that this conception is your god's will. Or that this conception is the choice (somehow) of the woman who got pregnant, and that since the child is your god's will.... and on and on into the hidden world of invisible gods.
Originally posted by ebenz47037
Abortion devalues the lives of children by calling them a "mass of cells."
Tell them "That sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me."
Originally posted by ebenz47037
The end result of severe child abuse is usually the death of the child.
Yes. That is terrible.
Originally posted by ebenz47037
Abortion results in the deaths of millions of children.
It must be hard for you to have to associate daily with murderers? You must feel like good Germans during the Holocaust?
Originally posted by ebenz47037
Abortion ranks high on the worst forms of child abuse.
I hope someone is taking down names... at least?

_

[rajuncajun]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

So originally, you didn't believe in magical beings?

So, then don't call me a murderer if I want to have an abortion in the first trimester.

A "potential human" isn't human.
And I believe that you are saying (that you believe) that a "fetus, as a potential human,( ought to )be nurtured and allowed to grow to it's full potential. The "ought to" is the Christian morality that is coming out. You guys believe that this conception is your god's will. Or that this conception is the choice (somehow) of the woman who got pregnant, and that since the child is your god's will.... and on and on into the hidden world of invisible gods.

Tell them "That sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

Yes. That is terrible.

It must be hard for you to have to associate daily with murderers? You must feel like good Germans during the Holocaust?

I hope someone is taking down names... at least?

_ go to cogforlife.org and click on abortion.It tells you all about it.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Knight

LOL... you are a true idiot aren't you?
A true idiot? Are there untrue idiots?
Originally posted by Knight

What does "democracy" have to do with abortion being legal?????
An abortion is a medical procedure. A procedure that was illegal for much of last century. Women were denied this procedure and won the right to have this medical procedure in court.

In a Christian "theocracy" (where you would be happier, I think) the case wouldn't have made it to court. They would have been witches maybe, and burned up to please their god.

_

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by kcajunmiller

go to cogforlife.org and click on abortion.It tells you all about it.
No thanks. You tell me... or forget about it.:think:

[rajuncajun]

aw c'mon!scared of what you will see!!!it will give you a new perspective on abortion and why it is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

So originally, you didn't believe in magical beings?

Nope. Still don't believe in magical beings. To me, Christ is very real. I'm not ridiculing your disbelief. Please, don't ridicule my belief.

So, then don't call me a murderer if I want to have an abortion in the first trimester.

Did I call you a murderer? No. But, just the fact that pro-choicers don't believe that life begins at conception doesn't not change the fact that it is a baby that is being "terminated."

A "potential human" isn't human.
And I believe that you are saying (that you believe) that a "fetus, as a potential human,( ought to )be nurtured and allowed to grow to it's full potential. The "ought to" is the Christian morality that is coming out. You guys believe that this conception is your god's will. Or that this conception is the choice (somehow) of the woman who got pregnant, and that since the child is your god's will.... and on and on into the hidden world of invisible gods.

LOL! We look at it differently. Yes. A fetus, as a potential human, ought to be nurtured and allowed to grow to it's full potential.

It doesn't matter whether I am a Christian or not, or whether I am a woman or not, in this matter. I don't believe that abortion should be a viable birth control because it actually destroys a life. I also believe that if a woman (and, yes, I'm a woman) chooses to have sex, the woman should have to deal with one of the natural consequences of sex; pregnancy. That doesn't mean that she has to raise the child if she doesn't want to. There are people who want children but are unable to have them.

Being unresponsible has many consequences. One of them may be an unplanned pregnancy. But, one shouldn't punish the child for the irresponsibility of the mother and/or father.

Tell them "That sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me."

Your attitude bites.

Yes. That is terrible.

What do you do to stop the abuse? I've taken in abused children, tried to adopt children who were unwanted (was denied because I was not married), and fed children who were hungry.

It must be hard for you to have to associate daily with murderers? You must feel like good Germans during the Holocaust?

LOL! Funny you should compare abortion to the holocaust. Abortion's killed at least five times more people than the holocaust did.

I don't equate myself with the Germans during that period. The people I associate with know my views whether they share them or not. I am not known for keeping my mouth shut on such matters.

I hope someone is taking down names... at least?

_

Like I said, your attitude bites. Because of how the Bible explains Jesus' attitude toward children, I think that the child abuse/abortion matter bothers Him a great deal.

I've tried talking four women out of having abortions. Three decided not to do it. The one who did it was my sister. She now has four children and has lost custody of three to her ex-husband. She has abused the oldest (from a prior relationship) since he was old enough to talk. I have tried to get custody of him, but the state of California tends to keep the children with the mother unless the mother is on drugs and cannot take care of herself, much less her children. My other sister and I have both reported the abuse to CPS. A lot of good that did. They said that unless my nephew's life was in danger, they would do nothing.

Most people, in today's world, deal with problems by getting rid of what they see as the source of the problem. When a woman gets an abortion, she views the fetus as the source of her problem. But, having an abortion does not generally solve the problems that the woman is having.

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

A true idiot? Are there untrue idiots?

An abortion is a medical procedure. A procedure that was illegal for much of last century. Women were denied this procedure and won the right to have this medical procedure in court.

In a Christian "theocracy" (where you would be happier, I think) the case wouldn't have made it to court. They would have been witches maybe, and burned up to please their god.

_ Thanks for acknowledging that "democracy" has nothing to do with abortion being legal in this country.

Tell me....

Hypothetically speaking of course....

Let's say the legality of abortion came up for public vote.

And let's assume further that the majority voted and abortion became illegal in this country.

Would abortion then be wrong in your eyes... or would you argue that the majority was wrong for making abortion illegal?

[Zakath]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
Every pro-choicer that I've talked to gets upset in this debate. I don't have to be talking about religion in this matter. I tend not to bring religion or science into the discussion at all when I talk to pro-choicers. Even before I became a Christian, I discussed this issue the same way I do now. And, if they think that religion denigrates women, what do they think of the men who tell their girlfriends/wives that if they don't abort the babies that they'll leave? You never hear about that from pro-choicers.

The three women that I talked out of getting abortions were going to get abortions because their boyfriends had threatened to leave them if they had the babies. To me, that's one of the worst ways to denigrate women. I would agree. I would also wonder what's wrong with these men and women that this would be considered necessary by either party in the relationship???

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by kcajunmiller

aw c'mon!scared of what you will see!!!it will give you a new perspective on abortion and why it is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
No, I don't want to get into a debate with material that is not here in the thread. If you want to cut and paste from that site, then I will read it.

_

[rajuncajun]

I don't see how people can see abortion as an easy way out when the reality is you get scarred for life.When will people realize that abortion kills a living baby growing in the mothers womb!!!!!!!And for the record I do believe God will forgive the women who do this if they ask for it.

[Knight]

Originally posted by kcajunmiller
I do believe God will forgive the women who do this if they ask for it. :up: God will forgive any sin - including murder if one humbles himself to the Lord.

[rajuncajun]

I KNOW THIS KNIGHT BUT THERE MAYBE SOME WOMEN WHO HAVE DONE THIS AND THINK OTHERWISE.I WAS JUST GIVING THEM SOME HOPE.

[Knight]

Originally posted by kcajunmiller

I KNOW THIS KNIGHT BUT THERE MAYBE SOME WOMEN WHO HAVE DONE THIS AND THINK OTHERWISE.I WAS JUST GIVING THEM SOME HOPE. Relax... I was agreeing with you. :confused:

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Knight

:up: God will forgive any sin - including murder if one humbles himself to the Lord. I always thougth that was any sin but one...

[Knight]

Originally posted by Zakath

I always thougth that was any sin but one... You thought wrong.

[Zakath]

I was recalling Mat. 12:31...

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. "

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz
In America we live in a democracy

First of all, you don't live in America, and secondly, we're not a democracy -- we're a representative republic.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Zakath

I was recalling Mat. 12:31...

"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. " I think its pretty obvious that you could have NEVER actually been a Pastor. Either that or you were a horribly unprepared pastor.

It's one thing to disagree on things as we often do but its quite another for someone like you to not even understand the argument.

I assert that based on your ignorance you are lying and you never really were a Pastor of a "Christian" church.

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by Knight

I think its pretty obvious that you could have NEVER actually been a Pastor. Either that or you were a horribly unprepared pastor.

It's one thing to disagree on things as we often do but its quite another for someone like you to not even understand the argument.

I assert that based on your ignorance you are lying and you never really were a Pastor of a "Christian" church.

I figured that a long time ago. I always wondered why anyone believed him to begin with.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Knight
I assert that based on your ignorance you are lying and you never really were a Pastor of a "Christian" church. Assert away, Tincan. It doesn't change history one whit. :chuckle:

BTW, that was a really shoddy dodge and attempted diversion. :down:

[Knight]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

I figured that a long time ago. I always wondered why anyone believed him to begin with. True... true... but every now and then he really exposes himself as a fraud.

The funny thing is.....

It's really a lose-lose situation for Zakath. He says these stupid things and there are only two possible conclusions: A. Zakath was never a Pastor. B. Zakath was the most ignorant Pastor in recent history.

[Knight]

Let me post it again....

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

A true idiot? Are there untrue idiots?

An abortion is a medical procedure. A procedure that was illegal for much of last century. Women were denied this procedure and won the right to have this medical procedure in court.

In a Christian "theocracy" (where you would be happier, I think) the case wouldn't have made it to court. They would have been witches maybe, and burned up to please their god.

_ Thanks for acknowledging that "democracy" has nothing to do with abortion being legal in this country.

Tell me....

Hypothetically speaking of course....

Let's say the legality of abortion came up for public vote.

And let's assume further that the majority voted and abortion became illegal in this country.

Would abortion then be wrong in your eyes... or would you argue that the majority was wrong for making abortion illegal?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

First of all, you don't live in America, and secondly, we're not a democracy -- we're a representative republic.
Okay, so do those two statements of yours, make what I stated wrong. No they don't.

_

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Knight

Hypothetically speaking of course....

Let's say the legality of abortion came up for public vote.

And let's assume further that the majority voted and abortion became illegal in this country.

Would abortion then be wrong in your eyes... or would you argue that the majority was wrong for making abortion illegal?
I believe that abortion is a States Rights issue, and the Federal government ought not be involved. If this happened then some states would vote to make abortion illegal. I would move to a state where abortion was legal.

_

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

I believe that abortion is a States Rights issue, and the Federal government ought not be involved. If this happened then some states would vote to make abortion illegal. I would move to a state where abortion was legal.

_ OK... and as for those states that voted abortion illegal (in our hypothetical) what would you think of them?

Would you think those majorities within those states were wrong for voting abortion illegal?

[f0rTyLeGz]

I think that believing that abortion is wrong is almost always an expression of Christian religious belief. They have a right to believe that abortion is wrong, and a right to make it their state's laws. If it became the law of the nation, I would fear that the government had fallen into the hands of Christians to a frightning degree.

_

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

I think that believing that abortion is wrong is almost always an expression of Christian religious belief. They have a right to believe that abortion is wrong, and a right to make it their state's laws. If it became the law of the nation, I would fear that the government had fallen into the hands of Christians to a frightning degree.

_ Well.... you didn't really answer my question. Wanna try again?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Well I would have voted for abortion to be legal. So I suppose you could say that I would think that those who vote to make it illegal are "wrong." Those who believe that women should not be allowed to have an abortion because of their magical beliefs are wrong. Id move for sure :)

_

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Well I would have voted for abortion to be legal. So I suppose you could say that I would think that those who vote to make it illegal are "wrong." Those who believe that women should not be allowed to have an abortion because of their magical beliefs are wrong. Id move for sure :)

_ OK... good now we are getting somewhere. I appreciate your direct answer.

Earlier you stated...In America we live in a democracy, where the laws are designed to protect the rights of minorities from the mass tyranny of the majority.Which is an appeal to the power of democracy or the power of majority rule.

Yet when I questioned you regarding when and if the majority ruled against your worldview you stated you would think the majority was "wrong" and you would even move!

Therefore...
You really have no regard for the majority or democracy UNLESS they happen to agree with your existing world view. This leaves you in a very precarious position in that you have no moral device or standing that you can now appeal to that states that you are "more right" than the majority you earlier appealed to. (please excuse the run on sentence) :)

In other words... you have now admitted that you only agree with the majority when the majority agrees with you.

At this point you have pretty much rendered your world view useless.... unless you can come up with some other standard of right and wrong to which you can appeal to. Can you do that?

What standard could you point us to that would make you right and the majority wrong?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Knight

At this point you have pretty much rendered your world view useless.... unless you can come up with some other standard of right and wrong to which you can appeal to. Can you do that?

The pressure is killing me!! :cool: What's the issue?
Originally posted by Knight

What standard could you point us to that would make you right and the majority wrong?
"Standard?" I didn't know I even needed a "standard!"

_

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

The pressure is killing me!! :cool: What's the issue?Any issue.

If you are going to appeal to "democracy" as a standard (as you did) yet then turn around and reject your own standard (as you did) it is fair of any of us to ask why you would do such a bizarre thing.

You continue...."Standard?" I didn't know I even needed a "standard!"

_ You set the standard as "democracy" and then you rejected it only a couple posts later.

It is now up to you to tell us what makes you "more right" then the "democracy" standard you appealed to earlier.

Asked another more simple way....
How does "f0rTyLeGz" determine when the democracy is wrong?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Democracy is full of winners and losers. Just because I believe that the opposition is wrong, doesn't mean that I throw out the right to vote. I say abortion is a state's rights issue. Let's vote.

_

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Democracy is full of winners and losers. Just because I believe that the opposition is wrong, doesn't mean that I throw out the right to vote. I say abortion is a state's rights issue. Let's vote.

_ And what makes you think the "opposition is wrong"?

It's a pretty simple question really.

Why do you keep running from the answer?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Knight

And what makes you think the "opposition is wrong"?
Why? Because I don't believe in magic.

Originally posted by Knight
It's a pretty simple question really.
And deserving of a simple reply.

Originally posted by Knight
Why do you keep running from the answer?
Why do you keep on thinking I am "running"?

_

[cattyfan]

fOrTyLeGz,

I am confused by your assertion a child isn't a child until he is born. I posted the following true story which occurred in my family on the "Shame on Sixpence" thread, but it bears repeating in relation to this:

My first nephew was born before post natal care had made the advancements we see now. My sister-in-law was only five and a half months along. Although the boy was fully formed, he was too small to live. My second oldest nephew was born ten years later, but again, my sister (in this case) was only five and a half months along. He was only a two-pounder, but the doctors used all their skills. He is now a healthy, happy teenager.

In both cases, the boys were born months early. The first died after only an hour; the second is growing up to be a fine thoughtful young man. But there is no doubt...at only 2 pounds, they were all there; fully formed human beings.

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Why? Because I don't believe in magic.

Then WHAT is it that you believe in that makes you "more right" then the "democracy" standard that you initially appealed to?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by cattyfan

fOrTyLeGz,

I am confused by your assertion a child isn't a child until he is born.
That is not my assertion. I say, "that life begins, when the mother decides to carry to full term." I say that for several reasons, but mostly because that is what happens. Some women on finding themselves are over joyed, and plan to carry to full term. They refer to the news of their pregnancy as a "baby." Other women, who don't want to be pregnant, never think of themselves as having a baby inside them. They think of it as a fetus or that "they are pregnant." Many women Im sure have abortions and do think of the fetus as a baby.

Originally posted by cattyfan
I posted the following true story which occurred in my family on the "Shame on Sixpence" thread, but it bears repeating in relation to this:

My first nephew was born before post natal care had made the advancements we see now. My sister-in-law was only five and a half months along. Although the boy was fully formed, he was too small to live. My second oldest nephew was born ten years later, but again, my sister (in this case) was only five and a half months along. He was only a two-pounder, but the doctors used all their skills. He is now a healthy, happy teenager.

In both cases, the boys were born months early. The first died after only an hour; the second is growing up to be a fine thoughtful young man. But there is no doubt...at only 2 pounds, they were all there; fully formed human beings.
That is 5 and a half months. Women ought to decide if they are carrying to full term by 12 weeks.

_

[Knight]

Ahem.... :)

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

That is 5 and a half months. Women ought to decide if they are carrying to full term by 12 weeks.

_


Maybe, women should decide by say age twenty-five if they want to have children. If so, fine. They have children. If they haven't decided by then or decide not to have children, they should have a hysterectomy.

Now, I don't really think this. But, I think it's as ridiculous as what you suggested above. Some women don't know by the time they're twelve weeks pregnant. When I was pregnant with my daughter, I "knew" I was pregnant, but showed no symptoms and did not have a positive pregnancy test until I was six months pregnant.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Knight

Then WHAT is it that you believe in that makes you "more right" then the "democracy" standard that you initially appealed to?
You have totally lost me. "More right?"

I can vote. Women can vote. They will vote to preserve their right to choose to have an abortion if it comes up for another vote.

_

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Okay, so do those two statements of yours, make what I stated wrong.

Yes. The USA is not now, nor has it ever been, a democracy.

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

I believe that abortion is a States Rights issue, and the Federal government ought not be involved. If this happened then some states would vote to make abortion illegal. I would move to a state where abortion was legal.

_

Why don't you just do us all a favor and stay in Jamaica?

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

You have totally lost me. "More right?"

I can vote. Women can vote. They will vote to preserve their right to choose to have an abortion if it comes up for another vote.

_ But if they didn't vote your way you claimed they would be wrong and you would go so far as to "move away".

Why is your vote right and their vote wrong?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

Why don't you just do us all a favor and stay in Jamaica?
Oh I can see you are a nice Christian.

_

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Knight

But if they didn't vote your way you claimed they would be wrong and you would go so far as to "move away".
Just to another state... probably, maybe.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Knight
Why is your vote right and their vote wrong?
Gee I don't know? Why is any vote right or wrong? People pick up and move for religious or political ideals all the time.

_

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Oh I can see you are a nice Christian.

And I can see you're not really in America, so why do you try to pretend you are?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

And I can see you're not really in America, so why do you try to pretend you are?
Pretending to be in America... hmmm now where did I do that?

_

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Gee I don't know? Why is any vote right or wrong? People pick up and move for religious or political ideals all the time.

_

So, why did your parents move to Jamaica?

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Gee I don't know? Why is any vote right or wrong? People pick up and move for religious or political ideals all the time.

_ Why are you so terrified to simply answer my question?

Or is it that you know that even attempting to answer my question exposes your worldview as bankrupt?

You ask....
"Why is any vote right or wrong?" Yet it was you who said... "If this happened then some states would vote to make abortion illegal. I would move to a state where abortion was legal." So apparently you feel so strongly that some votes are wrong you would go to the trouble of moving just to get away from the result of the vote!

So I ask yet again.....

Why is your vote right and their vote wrong?

[cattyfan]

Please, Knight! I've yet to get a straight answer as to why this supposed American is living in Jamaica! good luck getting a complex thought out of fOrTy...

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

So, why did your parents move to Jamaica?
Snort.

_

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by cattyfan

Please, Knight! I've yet to get a straight answer as to why this supposed American is living in Jamaica! good luck getting a complex thought out of fOrTy...
Good night... it's past my bed time lol

_

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Snort.

_

Gee, that's a mature answer. :rolleyes:

[cattyfan]

although snorting would certainly explain the unfocused answers...

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Good night... it's past my bed time lol

_ It must be late in Jamaica...

[Knight]

When (and if) you wake up....

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Gee I don't know? Why is any vote right or wrong? People pick up and move for religious or political ideals all the time.

_ Why are you so terrified to simply answer my question?

Or is it that you know that even attempting to answer my question exposes your worldview as bankrupt?

You ask....
"Why is any vote right or wrong?" Yet it was you who said... "If this happened then some states would vote to make abortion illegal. I would move to a state where abortion was legal." So apparently you feel so strongly that some votes are wrong you would go to the trouble of moving just to get away from the result of the vote!

So I ask yet again.....

Why is your vote right and their vote wrong?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by cattyfan

although snorting would certainly explain the unfocused answers...

I wont be answering personal questions. Get over it.

_

[cattyfan]

quote:
Originally posted by cattyfan

although snorting would certainly explain the unfocused answers...


fOrTyLeGz responds:
I wont be answering personal questions. Get over it.

__________________________

This post is representative of the root of the problem with fOrTyLeGz...fOrTy has no reading skills. I made a statement. I did not pose a question.

[ebenz47037]

quote:
Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

That is 5 and a half months. Women ought to decide if they are carrying to full term by 12 weeks.

_




Maybe, women should decide by say age twenty-five if they want to have children. If so, fine. They have children. If they haven't decided by then or decide not to have children, they should have a hysterectomy.

Now, I don't really think this. But, I think it's as ridiculous as what you suggested above. Some women don't know by the time they're twelve weeks pregnant. When I was pregnant with my daughter, I "knew" I was pregnant, but showed no symptoms and did not have a positive pregnancy test until I was six months pregnant.

Since you obviously missed this forty, I'll post it again.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Knight

Why is your vote right and their vote wrong?
Their vote is right to them of course. And having agreed to vote and to live with the results of that vote, that's what we do.

That is why it ought to be a States right, and not the law of the land. The Supreme Court has no place making a ruling about a spiritual matter... imho.

_

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by ebenz47037
When I was pregnant with my daughter, I "knew" I was pregnant, but showed no symptoms and did not have a positive pregnancy test until I was six months pregnant.


So you had "no symptoms" for six monthes? Wow. You didnt miss your period or gain any weight or have a morning sickness? That is amazing. About when in your pregnancy did you "know" that you were pregnant?

_

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Their vote is right to them of course. And having agreed to vote and to live with the results of that vote, that's what we do. I can see this is very difficult for you. And I realize you do not want to come within a mile of actually answering my question.

Yet I feel obligated to continue trying (at least I can expose how scared you are to answer).

It's clear now that you have completely tossed out your "democracy" standard you earlier appealed to.

Therefore there must be some other standard you are appealing to...

LET'S REVIEW....

So their vote is right for them.... BUT wrong for you. Therefore you feel their vote is WRONG according to you. How do you make that determination?

Let me give you some example answers so you might have a clue as how to answer the question....

EXAMPLE ANSWERS:
I determine right from wrong by....
- asking my friends.
- following my "gut feel"
- asking my parents
- whatever the media tells me what to think
- conforming to public opinion (you have already discounted this option)
- etc. etc. etc.

NEXT....

You say....That is why it ought to be a States right, and not the law of the land. The Supreme Court has no place making a ruling about a spiritual matter... imho.So then are you saying the Supreme Court SHOULD NOT have legalized abortion via Roe vs. Wade?

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

So you had "no symptoms" for six monthes? Wow. You didnt miss your period or gain any weight or have a morning sickness? That is amazing. About when in your pregnancy did you "know" that you were pregnant?

_

None. I don't know how I knew I was pregnant. But, no one believed me because the test kept coming up negative. I didn't miss one period until I was about six months along. I had no morning sickness at all during the entire pregnancy. I was already heavy, so the weight-gain wasn't significant. When my daughter started kicking, my doctor tried to tell me that it was just spasms. At six months, on top of a pregnancy test, I demanded an ultra sound. The pregnancy test "just barely (my doctor's words, not mine)" came up positive. But, the ultra sound showed that I was about six months pregnant. My doctor said that my body was not producing much HCG (pregnancy hormone). My daughter was born three weeks past the due date (according to the ultra sound). They had to induce labor. I was having contractions but didn't feel them. I ended up not dilating at all, so they had to take her by c-section.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Knight

So their vote is right for them.... BUT wrong for you. Therefore you feel their vote is WRONG according to you. How do you make that determination?

I can tell it is WRONG for me, because I didnt vote that way. I determined that I prefered the vote I chose, by imagining how life would be if that rule was applied.
Originally posted by Knight

NEXT....

You say....So then are you saying the Supreme Court SHOULD NOT have legalized abortion via Roe vs. Wade?
I believe that it would make more sense to decide this issue state by state.

_

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

I didn't miss one period until I was about six months along.
Absolutely amazing.

_

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

I can tell it is WRONG for me, because I didnt vote that way. I determined that I prefered the vote I chose, by imagining how life would be if that rule was applied. So you are saying you cannot objectively determine that you are more right than those who voted against you.... correct?

In other words you are saying...
Your oppositions vote is just as right as your vote... correct?

You continue...I believe that it would make more sense to decide this issue state by state.

_ So the Supreme Court was wrong? A yes or a no will do. :)

[the Sibbie]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

I didn't miss one period until I was about six months along. Do you know how :freak:ed-out this information could make me? :shocked:

[f0rTyLeGz]

by Knight:
So you are saying you cannot objectively determine that you are more right than those who voted against you.... correct?
Ahhhh.... "objectively". That's why it should be a state's rights issue. There is no real right or wrong in this particular case... it's a matter of beliefs about "the begining of life."

_

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz
There is no real right or wrong in this particular case. If that were the case why would bother to come on a public internet forum (such as this) and argue that those who are pro-life are "wrong"?

[f0rTyLeGz]

I don't believe in magical beings. I can't prove they don't exist, but you sure can't prove that they do.

_

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

I don't believe in magical beings. I can't prove they don't exist, but you sure can't prove that they do.

_ Transaltion: I am too dumb to debate you.

Better luck next time Mr. LeGz

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Knight

Transaltion: I am too dumb to debate you.

Better luck next time Mr. LeGz If you want to debate "magical beings", Knight, I'll take you on...

:: rolls up sleeves, cracks knuckles ::

:D

[Zakath]

:cheers:

I'll bring the beer! :thumb:

[Knight]

Gerald and Zakath are just glad this time on this thread it was someone else getting pasted. :D

[Greywolf]

originally posted by f0rTyLeGz
I say, "that life begins, when the mother decides to carry to full term."

So if the mother decides to carry to full term, then changes her mind, and decides to have an abortion, and then changes her mind again and carries to full term, does the baby die and come back to life?


I think I may have posted this on another thread (I think that there are now three active abortion threads), but a little repetion never hurt anyone. :D

[Lighthouse]

Life begins when sperm meets egg. And I will be more than willing to introduce them, after I get married.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Greywolf

So if the mother decides to carry to full term, then changes her mind, and decides to have an abortion, and then changes her mind again and carries to full term, does the baby die and come back to life? Great point. :up:

[Knight]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Life begins when sperm meets egg. And I will be more than willing to introduce them, after I get married. ROTFL... :o

[Gerald]

Originally posted by lighthouse
Life begins when sperm meets egg. And I will be more than willing to introduce them, after I get married.
Kids are a bigger pain than they're worth.

All I've ever seen that folks get out of them is gray hair, empty wallets and sleepless nights.

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Greywolf

So if the mother decides to carry to full term, then changes her mind, and decides to have an abortion, and then changes her mind again and carries to full term, does the baby die and come back to life?



She has three months to make up her mind.

_

[Knight]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

She has three months to make up her mind.

_ Just to clarify....

Do you think abortion after 3 months is wrong? And if so why?

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Knight
Gerald and Zakath are just glad this time on this thread it was someone else getting pasted. :D I'll have you know I've never been "pasted" WRT "magical beings".

The heaviest hitter on that topic that TOL has managed to field is Freak, and all he has produced is unverifiable anecdotes.

Care to give it a try...?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Gerald

I'll have you know I've never been "pasted" WRT "magical beings".

The heaviest hitter on that topic that TOL has managed to field is Freak, and all he has produced is unverifiable anecdotes.

Care to give it a try...? Gerald you have been "pasted" here at TOL more than just about anyone else besides maybe... :zakath:

[Pierre]

Originally posted by Gerald

Translation: not a single thing, aside from impotent hand-wringing...:rolleyes:

I'm a columnist actually. So besides reaching a good large audience, I do try to educate friends and debate those who support murder openly(looking in your direction) where they can't hide. If you mean do I stand in front of clinics? No. This is sort of rural country here, and if you were to have one, it would be a very long drive and if you told anyone about, it would be known everywhere. So, we don't have such clinics near where I live. It would be quite a drive to reach such a clinic with so little business.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Knight

Gerald you have been "pasted" here at TOL more than just about anyone else besides maybe... :zakath: Perhaps, but not WRT "magical beings"...

Unless someone around here has managed to demonstrate that they exist...

Thus, I remain unpasted on that subject.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Pierre

I'm a columnist actually. So besides reaching a good large audience, I do try to educate friends and debate those who support murder openly(looking in your direction) where they can't hide. Just because I support the use of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons on civilian populations during warfare, you have the audacity to claim that I support murder.

You wound me.

:chuckle:

[Pierre]

Originally posted by Zakath

Believe what you will, but the fact was I was unable to continue due to health reasons. The site moderator was privy to that information. Enyart was apparently in a rush to get his book published so he wouldn't wait for me to return.

Did these health reasons include your brain hurting? So, Enyart wouldn't wait for you to return? They why not post something saying as such publicly and say "but I'll be back to continue"? You just sort of disapeared like a bottle of Coor's at a AA meeting. I'd like to have seen you go all 10 rounds. I think you were losing, but even so, sticking it out you might have proved that not all athiests run from debates. Are you going to redeem yourself and try again?

[Pierre]

Originally posted by Gerald

Just because I support the use of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons on civilian populations during warfare, you have the audacity to claim that I support murder.

You wound me.

:chuckle:

Uh oh... so do I. Do you also support executing civilians who surrender? Particularly males over 12?:think:

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Pierre

Uh oh... so do I. But do you support doing it first, rather than in retaliation?
Do you also support executing civilians who surrender? Particularly males over 12?:think: Well, only if my troops need target practice.

Otherwise, I'm just inclined to snuff everybody: men, women, children, livestock, house pets, you-name-it...

I figure if you're gonna play, play for keeps. The winner is the one still breathing after the dust settles...

:devil:

[Pierre]

Originally posted by Gerald

Well, only if my troops need target practice.

Otherwise, I'm just inclined to snuff everybody: men, women, children, livestock, house pets, you-name-it...

I figure if you're gonna play, play for keeps. The winner is the one still breathing after the dust settles...

:devil:

Out of curiousity, have you ever read the Book of Dueteronomy? There's a section on the rules of warfare I found very impressive. Years ago it helped change my mind toward Christianity rather than away from it. But anyways, I do agree. We should get rid of the Iraqis who are of no use.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Pierre
We should get rid of the Iraqis who are of no use. That would be all of them. After all, if you exterminate now, they can't come back and bug you later...:devil:

[Pierre]

Originally posted by Gerald

But do support doing it first, rather than in retaliation?
Well, only if my troops need target practice.

Oops, missed a question. Yes, I support doing it first too. Specifically if they are a country who can fight back like say, China. I think Iraq was more of a live fire excercise then anything. I don't mind liberating them, but to what end? We throw ourselves into debt for a nation who would still want to see us dead and are still heathens? What a waste.

[Pierre]

Originally posted by Gerald

That would be all of them. After all, if you exterminate now, they can't come back and bug you later...:devil:

Not 100% true, there are a few Christians. More like needles in a hay stack, but even so, not worthless 100%. 99% I would agree. That's probably where you and I disagree.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Pierre

Not 100% true, there are a few Christians. Problem is, anybody can claim to be a Christian, especially if he thinks it will keep him alive.

Why bother with trying to sort them out, for just a few Christians?

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Sibbie

Do you know how :freak:ed-out this information could make me? :shocked:

:chuckle: I was twenty years old, Sibbie. But, I knew I was pregnant. There was just something "different" about my body. I can't explain it. It's been fifteen years now.

[Pierre]

Originally posted by Gerald

Problem is, anybody can claim to be a Christian, especially if he thinks it will keep him alive.

Why bother with trying to sort them out, for just a few Christians?

That's a very valid point, a good majority here(namely the Catholics) are most guilty of that. I'd probably drop some leaflets first... possibly attached to a bomb... I don't know enough about those Christians to say it's worth holding back on or not. I've only ever met one from that part of the world.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Pierre

That's a very valid point, a good majority here(namely the Catholics) are most guilty of that. I'd probably drop some leaflets first... possibly attached to a bomb... I don't know enough about those Christians to say it's worth holding back on or not. I've only ever met one from that part of the world. It isn't worth holding back; after all, you're doing them a favor by dispatching them to the Hereafter that much sooner.

If you waste time trying to avoid killing them, more heathens will be able to escape, which means they can come back and bite you later on...:noid:

[Ezekiel]

Originally posted by Gerald

But do you support doing it first, rather than in retaliation?
Well, only if my troops need target practice.

Otherwise, I'm just inclined to snuff everybody: men, women, children, livestock, house pets, you-name-it...

I figure if you're gonna play, play for keeps. The winner is the one still breathing after the dust settles...

:devil:

Ever look someone in the eye right before you kill them? Actually ever had to kill someone before? Or, perhaps you are just an arm chair General who says a bunch of tripe about what he would do in a war blah blah blah...

You sound like you actually beleive all that stuff you've been watching on CNN.

You also said that "all Iraq's" are of no use! Heh..:kookoo:

Read a history book lately?

If this is your view on Iraq's, what in your opinion, makes a person useful?

Oh, and is your sig. meant to be Ironic? Atheisim requires faith, hence....Well you get the picture. :think:

[Flipper]

Pierre wrote:

We should get rid of the Iraqis who are of no use.

Are you allowed a crayon to write your "column" or do they just restrict you to non-toxic fingerpaints?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Ezekiel

Ever look someone in the eye right before you kill them?
Oh MY, you are a HEALTHY Christian!!

Originally posted by Ezekiel

Atheisim requires faith, hence....Well you get the picture. :think:

Lol... Yes atheism requires that you don't believe in magic. That means that you don't believe in souls, or demons or life afer death, or omniecience, or "the power of prayer," or hobbits, or flying saucers, or possession, or angels...

_

[Pierre]

Originally posted by Flipper

Pierre wrote:

Are you allowed a crayon to write your "column" or do they just restrict you to non-toxic fingerpaints?

Oh come on, tell us what you're really thinking? You want to defend the terrorists? Be my guest, see how much support you gather. You're part of the problem.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Ezekiel

Ever look someone in the eye right before you kill them? Actually ever had to kill someone before? Or, perhaps you are just an arm chair General who says a bunch of tripe about what he would do in a war blah blah blah...

You sound like you actually beleive all that stuff you've been watching on CNN.

You also said that "all Iraq's" are of no use! Heh..:kookoo:

Read a history book lately?

If this is your view on Iraq's, what in your opinion, makes a person useful?I recommend you read the post subject line very closely...
Oh, and is your sig. meant to be Ironic? Atheisim requires faith, hence....Well you get the picture. :think: My atheism is the result of years of observation: no verifiable supernatural/paranormal phenomenon has ever occurred, so I see no reason to believe that they ever will, and behave accordingly.

[Flipper]

Pierre:

Oh come on, tell us what you're really thinking? You want to defend the terrorists? Be my guest, see how much support you gather. You're part of the problem.

Well this is a little more lucid but still filled with fantastical delusion.

You might ask your orderly nicely to see if you can up your thorazine dosage.

[Ezekiel]

Originally posted by Gerald

I recommend you read the post subject line very closely...
My atheism is the result of years of observation: no verifiable supernatural/paranormal phenomenon has ever occurred, so I see no reason to believe that they ever will, and behave accordingly.

Sorry my friend, I was responding to something you said.

Thought it was straight forward...Guess not.

Your view of Atheisim is well, typical. Finite man trying to understand an Infinite God..

If you always try to be "logical" about everything you'll soon run out of things to learn.

Logic is like fire; in the sense that they (logic and fire) both make good servants, but they make very bad masters. I gues you could say this is true of the internet too :)

Shalom

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Ezekiel
If you always try to be "logical" about everything you'll soon run out of things to learn.One need only follow the progress of the Mars rovers to see that your statement is demonstrably false.

The universe is big, and full of stuff we haven't learned yet.
Logic is like fire; in the sense that they (logic and fire) both make good servants, but they make very bad masters.I hope you're not working towards saying "by dismissing the paranormal, you're closing the door on a whole realm of possibilities, and that isn't very open-minded"...

[newway2bhuman]

Originally posted by Gerald

One need only follow the progress of the Mars rovers to see that your statement is demonstrably false.



I think that was his point, Wonder Boy.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by newway2bhuman
I think that was his point, Wonder Boy.Then he can make the clarification, thank you very much.

I took his meaning to be that my summary dismissal of things paranormal is closed-minded.

[Ezekiel]

Originally posted by Gerald

One need only follow the progress of the Mars rovers to see that your statement is demonstrably false.

The universe is big, and full of stuff we haven't learned yet.
I hope you're not working towards saying "by dismissing the paranormal, you're closing the door on a whole realm of possibilities, and that isn't very open-minded"...


Like Newway2B said.. that was the point..

To quote an infamous philosopher "The universe is big, and full of stuff we haven't learned yet." :chuckle: Slight understatement!

Again, the irony of your statements is amusing.. "The universe is big and full of stuff we haven't learned yet" But then again there foresure is no way God or Angelic beings can exist. Is this kind of what your saying?

I was simply saying: Don't be mastered by "Logic".

Many things today that seem logical, were just a few years ago very illogical. Like say landing a rover on Mars or the human gnome only having 130 000 traits instead of 30 000 000 etc etc..

Oh, and just so we're clear on this; My faith doesn't require that you have any.

My original retort to you was regarding your sig. To suggest that "Atheism" requires no faith is well, illogical ;)

Shalom

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Ezekiel
Again, the irony of your statements is amusing.. "The universe is big and full of stuff we haven't learned yet"

But then again there foresure is no way God or Angelic beings can exist.

Is this kind of what your saying?Not even close. I've never made the claim that paranormal entities (gods, angels, devils, spirits, etc.) can't exist, or that paranormal phenomena can't occur; I've said, simply, that the existence of such entities, or the occurence of such phenomena has yet to be conclusively verified.

Thus, I see no compelling reason to behave as if such things exist or occur.

If you wish to demonstrate that I am mistaken, feel free to head down to the Paranormal forum.

If you can demonstrate that I am mistaken, then I know a fellow who will hand you a cool million...:greedy:

[Tye Porter]

A cool Million bucks for a Bible?
I'm there!

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Tye Porter
A cool Million bucks for a Bible?
I'm there! Unfortunately, the Bible is, at best, anecdotal evidence, and anecdotes contribute nothing toward verification.

But I'm sure you already knew that...:chuckle:

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Gerald

Unfortunately, the Bible is, at best, anecdotal evidence, and anecdotes contribute nothing toward verification.

But I'm sure you already knew that...:chuckle:
While I disagree, I did already know what your reply was going to be!

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

While I disagree, I did already know what your reply was going to be! Perhaps if you pray very hard, I'll change my tune.

All it would take, really, is for the leg a cousin of mine lost to spontaneously regenerate...

:nono:

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Gerald

Perhaps if you pray very hard, I'll change my tune.

All it would take, really, is for the leg a cousin of mine lost to spontaneously regenerate...

:nono:
Is he a salamander or a star fish?

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

Is he a salamander or a star fish? Remind me to kneecap you if we should ever meet...

A pity, really; one little miracle of that magnitude would bring me firmly into your camp.

Too bad it'll never happen... :chuckle:

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Gerald

Remind me to kneecap you if we should ever meet...

A pity, really; one little miracle of that magnitude would bring me firmly into your camp.

Too bad it'll never happen... :chuckle:
It's doubtful that you'd ever accept the truth.
If your cousin sprouted a new leg, you'd find any excuse other than God.
God sprouted a whole universe and you've found other excuses for that.
God does not jump through hoops for man.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

It's doubtful that you'd ever accept the truth.
If your cousin sprouted a new leg, you'd find any excuse other than God.
No, I wouldn't.

If that happened, I would personally seek you out and declare my conversion before as many witnesses as I could gather.

Then I would offer myself as a warrior for God, going forth and slaughtering the heathens in His Name.

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Gerald

No, I wouldn't.

If that happened, I would personally seek you out and declare my conversion before as many witnesses as I could gather.

Then I would offer myself as a warrior for God, going forth and slaughtering the heathens in His Name.
[talk show host][i]"Well, Gerald, have we got the religion for you!
We've got a one way ticket for you to Palestine.
Upon arrival you'll join the islamic religion and become a warrior of the infidel!

But wait, there's more...

Upon your death, we've got 72 virgins waiting just for you."[/talk show host]

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

[talk show host][i]"Well, Gerald, have we got the religion for you!
We've got a one way ticket for you to Palestine.
Upon arrival you'll join the islamic religion and become a warrior of the infidel!

But wait, there's more...

Upon your death, we've got 72 virgins waiting just for you."[/talk show host]
Hey, if Allah's got the talent, he knows what to do.

You're throwing away a fortune here!

Just think of all the unrepentant reprobates I could help you get rid of...

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Gerald
Just think of all the unrepentant reprobates I could help you get rid of...
You mean like yourself?

[ebenz47037]

This is funny! I've watched the topic of this thread go from abortion/child abuse to voting to Tye and Gerald berating each other! :darwinsm: Good way to hijack a thread, guys!

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

This is funny! I've watched the topic of this thread go from abortion/child abuse to voting to Tye and Gerald berating each other! :darwinsm: Good way to hijack a thread, guys!
Thank you.
I just needed to move into the number 12 position in one day.
In less than two weeks, I'll be on Lucky's tail!

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

Thank you.
I just needed to move into the number 12 position in one day.
In less than two weeks, I'll be on Lucky's tail!

I've been watching this thread (good thing I didn't subscribe to it!). I don't mind the hijacking though.

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

I've been watching this thread (good thing I didn't subscribe to it!). I don't mind the hijacking though.
It was for a good cause.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Tye Porter
You mean like yourself? Well, considering that no Christian ever has, or ever will, defeat me in single combat...

[Knight]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

This is funny! I've watched the topic of this thread go from abortion/child abuse to voting to Tye and Gerald berating each other! :darwinsm: Good way to hijack a thread, guys! On the bright side... we all got to watch f0rTyLeGz disintegrate. :D

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

Thank you.
I just needed to move into the number 12 position in one day.
In less than two weeks, I'll be on Lucky's tail!
:Grizzly: :spam: :king:

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Lucky

:Grizzly: :spam: :king:
Don't :spam: er hate!

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Knight

On the bright side... we all got to watch f0rTyLeGz disintegrate. :D

Actually, I was laughing at the evolution of this thread. That in itself was funny. I won't complain about hijacking unless I really want it to stay on topic.

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

Actually, I was laughing at the evolution of this thread. That in itself was funny. I won't complain about hijacking unless I really want it to stay on topic.
the topic is the hi-jacking, right?

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

the topic is the hi-jacking, right?

Now, it is! :chuckle:

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

Now, it is! :chuckle:
Is it possible to hi-jack a hi-jacked thread?

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

Is it possible to hi-jack a hi-jacked thread?

Yeah. Why not?

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

Yeah. Why not?
Just checking, before I hi-jack you thread.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

Just checking, before I hi-jack you thread.

No problem.

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

No problem.
Are you sure?

[Zakath]

Can we at least hijack the thread to someplace warm? Say the Caribbean? :D

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Zakath

Can we at least hijack the thread to someplace warm? Say the Caribbean? :D
Your plane is heading to Iran.

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Gerald

Kids are a bigger pain than they're worth.

All I've ever seen that folks get out of them is gray hair, empty wallets and sleepless nights.

Especially your parents I'll bet.

[Tye Porter]

:chuckle:

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Gerald

Perhaps if you pray very hard, I'll change my tune.

All it would take, really, is for the leg a cousin of mine lost to spontaneously regenerate...

:nono:

Blessed are those that have not seen and still believe. You're a loser, Gerald.

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by wholearmor
You're a loser, Gerald.
:bannana:

[Gerald]

Originally posted by wholearmor
Blessed are those that have not seen and still believe.Trusting, aren't you? You take God at his word, do you?

I take nobody at their word. Not people, and certainly not invisible deities.

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Gerald

Trusting, aren't you? You take God at his word, do you?

I take nobody at their word. Not people, and certainly not invisible deities.

That's why I said you are a loser.

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by Gerald
I take nobody at their word. Not people, and certainly not invisible deities.
I don't trust you.
Why should i take you at your word about this?

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Tye Porter

I don't trust you.
Why should i take you at your word about this?

I was going to ask that but I like my reply better. :chuckle:

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by wholearmor

I was going to ask that but I like my reply better. :chuckle:
Yours was much better.
He is a Loser.

[newway2bhuman]

Originally posted by Gerald

Trusting, aren't you? You take God at his word, do you?

I take nobody at their word. Not people, and certainly not invisible deities.

Where is your cave located?

[f0rTyLeGz]

Originally posted by Gerald

Well, considering that no Christian ever has, or ever will, defeat me in single combat...

There are Christians around here? Fooled me! I thought the foras here were a handful of rude boys cursing eachother in the highschool corridors between classes.

_

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by f0rTyLeGz

Fooled me!

...and with hardly any effort at all!

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by newway2bhuman

Where is your cave located?
Please don't ask him that question, he'll graphically answer you. :eek:

[Tye Porter]

Originally posted by wholearmor

...and with hardly any effort at all!
:chuckle:

[Ezekiel]

Originally posted by Gerald

Well, considering that no Christian ever has, or ever will, defeat me in single combat...

Ha...

Single combat! Can this be physical Gerald... I'll accept the challenge..

I am a 4th Dan BB in Seicho Justu, Military trained (With Actually experience) and still compete competitively in Muay Thai ;)

Psalm 144 baby!


As far as your inability to trust others.. This is your bondage.. That must really suck..

Perhaps it's time you stop being a professional victim and step up to the plate and trust were no trust is warrented..

Anyone can be as negative as you, it's been done before.. Boring!

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Ezekiel
Ha...

Single combat! Can this be physical Gerald... I'll accept the challenge..

I am a 4th Dan BB in Seicho Justu, Military trained (With Actuall