A Challenge for the followers of Bob Enyart

[Jerry Shugart]

Bob Enyart teaches that the Jews were saved by "faith" plus "works".

They call themselves "dispensationalists",but their teaching is the greatest assult on the dispensational method today!Over and over I am confronted by non-dispensationalists who say that they reject dispensationalism because dispensationalists teach that some men are saved in different ways than other men.

Those who follow Bob Enyart should take this opportunity to clear up whether or not the Jews were saved by "faith" plus "works".If they think that they can prove their teaching from the Scriptures then at least one of them should accept my challenge.

This is a perfect subject for the "Battle Royale Center Ring".

Any takers?

In His grace,--Jerry

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Bob Enyart teaches that the Jews were saved by "faith" plus "works".

They call themselves "dispensationalists",but their teaching is the greatest assult on the dispensational method today!Over and over I am confronted by non-dispensationalists who say that they reject dispensationalism because dispensationalists teach that some men are saved in different ways than other men.

Those who follow Bob Enyart should take this opportunity to clear up whether or not the Jews were saved by "faith" plus "works".If they think that they can prove their teaching from the Scriptures then at least one of them should accept my challenge.

This is a perfect subject for the "Battle Royale Center Ring".

Any takers?

In His grace,--Jerry

Enyart is terribly wrong regarding this issue as evident by what Jesus taught in the Gospel of John, for example. Perhaps someone will take up your offer in order to exposed.

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?

[1Way]

Jerry - We are not the followers of Bob, and you are not (necessarily) the best follower of dispensational thought.

It is indeed an important and controverical topic. But settling this issue should not be because "dispensationalism" is being rejected (for wrong reasons), but because false doctrine is destructive, we need to promote the truth by God's word, and I'm sure you agree that God's word should be the focus for any such correction, so I don't mean to take your intentions wrongly. At the same time, you are presenting an arguably manmade doctrine (your understanding of dispensationalism) as the foundational issue. Unfortunately dispensationalism actually has a pretty widespread divergence, and make no mistake, the proponents of The Plot are indeed dispensationalists. So please be a bit more careful with your generalizations.

Also, I wish you would entertain more carefully the many corrections that have been thoughtfully given to you already, especially in the "claims validate your position" problem. A debate is no fun when both parties do NOT accurately 1) understand and 2) appropriately represent what the other party is arguing. I hope you will demonstrate a ready willingness to stand on the truth in the very midst of opposition, instead of neglecting opposition.

You may be improving in these regards, I'm not at all sure, but speaking past each other is pretty much a waste of time. The nature of the topic of dispensationalism is a naturally wide spread and somewhat complex issue, especially when you consider the various aspects of it all. I know who I would vote for in presenting an Acts9 12 out view, but I can not speak for him. If no one takes your challenge to the center ring, please consider my challenge to you to respectfully engage in point, counter-point arguments where you are reasonably consistent in representing your opponent accurately.

[Nineveh]

I merged your threads Jerry :)

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
I wish you would entertain more carefully the many corrections that have been thoughtfully given to you already, especially in the "claims validate your position" problem.
1Way,

The "corrections" that you have already given me do not even resemble what the Scriptures actually say.So I will stick with the Scriptures and not your so-called "corrections".

In His grace,--Jerry

[1Way]

Jerry - There you go again!

I am not saying we have established any corrections between us doctrinally speaking, I am talking about your constant violence you do to what we say. Like right now! Also, I wish you would entertain more carefully the many corrections that have been thoughtfully given to you already, especially in the "claims validate your position" problem. A debate is no fun when both parties do NOT accurately 1) understand and 2) appropriately represent what the other party is arguing. I hope you will demonstrate a ready willingness to stand on the truth in the very midst of opposition, instead of neglecting opposition. Don't rip the context of what people actually say, doing so is fundamentally dishonest and going against the truth of the matter.

[1Way]

I am considering a new periodless and perhaps commaless mode of communication there is an epidemic of people who just love to rip your words out of the wider truthful context in which they were given so if I stop using periods to separate my various discrete thoughts maybe people will be more likely to take in the wider context instead of constantly violating it what do you think about that if that does not serve the purpose very well then perhaps you have a better suggestion I don't know thanks for your time and thoughtful consideration no one likes his own words being used in a contrary way so come on and join me in the latest revolution punctuationless writing the new contextually heavy method thanks in advance for all your kind support violence to understanding is a terrible thing to waste blessings

[Jerry Shugart]

So now I am dishonest!

What did you say that I mis-represented?

[1Way]

:doh:

[Jerry Shugart]

If you would spend more time in discussing what the Scriptures say instead of always offering up inane "advice" as to how one should conduct themselves on this forum you might actually come to the knowledge of the truth.

If I have mis-represented anything you might have said then I apologize.But If I did I did not do it on purpose,and your remarks about "dishonesty" are not appreciated.

In His grace,--Jerry

[1Way]

Read posts 5 and 6 again to see your mishandling what I actually said, you ripped my words out of context. Stop neglecting/violating the context in which ideas are presented.

You portrayed my own words as being about doctrinal corrections,

when in fact, my own words (contextually not violated) says that the corrections was NOT doctrinal as much as it was against you violating the context of what people say

i.e. not about doctrinal corrections but contextual non-violence.

[drbrumley]

Oh brother!!!!!!

Is this attack Bob Enyart month?

[Jerry Shugart]

And because I did this you feel like that you have the right to question my "honesty"?

Here are your words:
Also, I wish you would entertain more carefully the many corrections that have been thoughtfully given to you already, especially in the "claims validate your position" problem. A debate is no fun when both parties do NOT accurately 1) understand and 2) appropriately represent what the other party is arguing. I hope you will demonstrate a ready willingness to stand on the truth in the very midst of opposition, instead of neglecting opposition.

Here you can see that you are talking about "corrections" that have been given me,and you speak about one set of "corrections" in reference to "contextual non-violence".However,I was speaking about the "corrections" in regard to the Scriptures.

And for that my honesty is put into question.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Oh brother!!!!!!

Is this attack Bob Enyart month?
Those who follow Bob Enyart should welcome the opportunity to prove by the Holy Scriptures that the Jews were saved by "faith" plus "works".

But so far I have not heard from any of his followers saying that they would be willing to defend this teaching on the "Battle Royale Center Ring".

In His grace,--Jerry

[Jerry Shugart]

1Way,

You say:
You portrayed my own words as being about doctrinal corrections.
You are mis-representing what I said.Does that give me a right to question your honesty?I was not mis-representing anything you said.Instead,I was speaking about the "many corrections" that you spoke of that were not in reference to representing what others are arguing.

Here are your words:
Also, I wish you would entertain more carefully the many corrections that have been thoughtfully given to you already, especially in the "claims validate your position" problem. A debate is no fun when both parties do NOT accurately 1) understand and 2) appropriately represent what the other party is arguing. I hope you will demonstrate a ready willingness to stand on the truth in the very midst of opposition, instead of neglecting opposition.
You yourself speak of "many corrections",and some of the corrections were in regard to representing what the other person is arguing.

But I was not speaking about the "many corrections" which were
in regard to representing what the other party is representing,but instead about the so-called corrections in regard to the meaning of Scriptures .If you would read what others are saying more carefully then perhaps you would not make statements in regard to others that put their honesty in question.

In His grace,--Jerry

[drbrumley]

Well, Jerry

I don't follow Bob Enyart as if he is God. And his fans do not either. But your insinuation that we are "followers" of Bob instead of Jesus has alot to be desired. Actually I am surprised to see you sink to this level. As if we are sheep of Bob's as another poster put it. Maybe I am reading something into your comments Jerry, but I apologize cause they don't sit well with me.

And since you are a dispensationalist Jerry, as well as Bob and I, you know it has always been by the blood of Jesus for which we are saved. But it is total foolishness Jerry to say Isreal didn't have to do anything else other than just believe. How many laws did they have? They had to keep every one of those laws or otherwise suffer at the hands of Allmighty God. And they went ahead and just did just that. To thier destruction. Your problem seems to be coming from all Isreal had to do was beleive. Yes they had to beleive. But they had alot more than that to do.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart to 1way

If you would spend more time in discussing what the Scriptures say instead of always offering up inane "advice" as to how one should conduct themselves on this forum you might actually come to the knowledge of the truth.

In His grace,--Jerry You see it too, huh? 1Way is another poster who offers "wordy" posts with little substance of Scriptural truth.

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Well, Jerry

I don't follow Bob Enyart as if he is God. In Christ,
DRBrumley I'm glad you cleared that up for us. :rolleyes:

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Those who follow Bob Enyart should welcome the opportunity to prove by the Holy Scriptures that the Jews were saved by "faith" plus "works". But they won't.

But so far I have not heard from any of his followers saying that they would be willing to defend this teaching on the "Battle Royale Center Ring".

In His grace,--Jerry Nor have I concerning the issue of spiritual gifts/miracles for today...;)

[drbrumley]

Freak, you really make it hard for people to listen to you and to like you.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Freak, you really make it hard for people to listen to you and to like you.

It's not hard for me, not to listen to or like Freak

:Grizzly: :freak:

[drbrumley]

I welcome Jerry to ask questions. I welcome you also Freak. But when all you do is talk alot of crap as you do and profess to be the end all be all of what the bible is saying and you being so prone to take a majority opinion and make the claim is truth, why bother having a sincere thought provoking dialouge with you?

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Well, Jerry

But it is total foolishness Jerry to say Isreal didn't have to do anything else other than just believe.
In Christ,
DRBrumley What did Jesus tell those under the Old Covenant to do?

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?

[1Way]

DrBrumley - You said They had to keep every one of those laws or otherwise suffer at the hands of Allmighty God. And they went ahead and just did just that. To thier destruction. Your problem seems to be coming from all Isreal had to do was beleive. Yes they had to beleive. But they had alot more than that to do. You mean God was serious and trustworthy when He said ...

Nu 15:30 ‘But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; HIS GUILT SHALL BE UPON HIM.’" 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, . 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died. I asked Jerry to respond to this example of God "requiring works" for everlasting life, and well, for some reason he just wont deal with it. So be it, so it is.

make it "hard" to like Freak? ... Being a jerk in about every way possible is not "making it hard to like him". It's obvious to me that he wants us to feel toward him like he does towards us. Extreme unjustified animosity. I might have said, you make it hard to listen to you and respect what you are saying.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by drbrumley
I don't follow Bob Enyart as if he is God. And his fans do not either. But your insinuation that we are "followers" of Bob instead of Jesus has alot to be desired.
DRBrumley,

I never ever insinuated that anyone followed Bob Enyart instead of the Lord Jesus.
Actually I am surprised to see you sink to this level. As if we are sheep of Bob's as another poster put it. Maybe I am reading something into your comments Jerry, but I apologize cause they don't sit well with me.
You are reading something into my comments that are not there.Your apology is accepted.
And since you are a dispensationalist Jerry, as well as Bob and I, you know it has always been by the blood of Jesus for which we are saved. But it is total foolishness Jerry to say Isreal didn't have to do anything else other than just believe. How many laws did they have?
They had many laws,but the law was never given as a way whereby the Jews could justify themselves before God:

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin"(Ro.3:20).
They had to keep every one of those laws or otherwise suffer at the hands of Allmighty God. And they went ahead and just did just that. To thier destruction.
Not to their eternal destruction.Those who had "faith" were preserved forever.This is what the OT Scriptures say about the OT saints:

"For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever"(Ps.37:28).

That is why Paul could say this about a "murderer",king David:

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin"(Ro.4:6-8).
Your problem seems to be coming from all Isreal had to do was beleive. Yes they had to beleive. But they had alot more than that to do.
As Freak has clearly demonstrated,the Lord Jesus Himself told the Jews that those who believed already possessed a life that would never end and were already passed from death unto life:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

In His grace,--Jerry

[1Way]

The Lord said, obey the commandments in answer to the question, what must I do to have eternal life. Keeping the commandments included love and faith in God and in Him only, so all your faith without works teachings do not invalidate Christ's teaching that fully lines up with all of scripture for those in the dispensation of Law.

Keeping the commandments was not a suggestion from God, it was do them, or be cut off from being a part of His people, do them or die in your sin guilt.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
I asked Jerry to respond to this example of God "requiring works" for everlasting life, and well, for some reason he just wont deal with it.
I did deal with it.There are some under the illusion that being a member of the nation of Israel equated with being saved,and being cut off from Israel is the same thing as losing eternal life.

THey also believe that "physical" death is the same as losing "eternal" life,but what can be said about the following verse?:

"To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus"(1Cor.5:5).

In His grace,--Jerry

[1Way]

Attack one thing avoid another, attack another thing avoid yet another, attack something else, avoid everything. :radar:

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

The Lord said, obey the commandments in answer to the question, what must I do to have eternal life. Why have you lied to the Holy Spirit in such a obvious manner?

Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.

Keeping the commandments was not a suggestion from God, it was do them, or be cut off from being a part of His people, do them or die in your sin guilt. Huh??? What have you been smoking?

Jesus told those under the Old Covenant the following:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?

[1Way]

Nu 15:30 ‘But the person who does [anything] presumptuously, [whether he is] native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the LORD, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 ‘Because he has despised the word of the LORD, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; HIS GUILT SHALL BE UPON HIM.’" 32 Now while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, . 33 And those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses and Aaron, and to all the congregation. 34 They put him under guard, because it had not been explained what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp." 36 So, as the LORD commanded Moses, all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him with stones, and he died.

You think that is not a picture of redemption and not damnation? Faith alone and not the requirement of works or else be damned? Jerry, get a bit more realistic please. The guy died in his sins, he was damned because he did not keep the Sabbath law, his faith was not even brought up. Works were required to stay right with God.

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

You think that is not a picture of redemption and not damnation? Faith alone and not the requirement of works or else be damned? Jerry, get a bit more realistic please. The guy died in his sins, he was damned because he did not keep the Sabbath law, his faith was not even brought up. Works were required to stay right with God.

Our eternal God and Savior said to those under the Old Covenant:

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?

Do you believe this?

[1Way]

I tell you the truth, I did not lie. Matthew 19:16-22
16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions. God hates one who's sow's discord and falsely accusses the bretheren.

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way

But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

God hates one who's sow's discord and falsely accusses the bretheren. The Lord Jesus hates those like yourself, 1Way who attempt to distort His message that He clearly presented:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

[geoff]

Heb 11:2 Indeed, by faith our ancestors received approval.

Hmm the author of Hebrews says it was by faith..



Heb 11:40 since God had provided something better so that they would not, apart from us, be made perfect.

They are not made perfect apart from us (by another means) but by the same means.

Dwayne hasnt kept up with modern studies of Judaism - especially E P Sanders et all.

The idea of justification by law being the normal mode of OT salvation is like... way out of date... and incorrect.

[drbrumley]

Fact is,

Before I get full bore into this, I need to ask this question to Freak and Jerry.

Bob teaches that man in different times has been called upon to manifest his faith in different ways.

Freak and Jerry, did God tell Able, or Noah, or Abram, or Moses, or David to beleive the same message that Paul told the Philippian jailer: Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

But all these men beleived the message that God gave them and they were all saved on the basis of faith.

Your problem lies in the fact that you two cannot differeniate this. The only thing you two seem to looking at is Jesus had saved these people and thats the end of it. Let's ask Moses if this is true.

God COMMANDED Isreal to be circumsised. Moses decided that he wasn't going to do that. God was going to kill him had it not been for his wife. Perhaps the greatest person in Isreal's history decided to disobey God. Was Moses saved? He saw all the miracles and yet decided to disobey.

And another thought, When being saved in the Old Testament and the Gospels, it seems pretty clear that salvation is usually from physical enemies, disease, or death. When Peter cried,"Lord save me" (Matthew 14:30), he was not thinking about salvation from sin. Everything in the Old Covenant dealt with the physical side of salvation. You two are trying to spiritualize all the Old Covenant when it isnt warranted. Hence, your problem.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

A) Freak and Jerry, did God tell Able, or Noah, or Abram, or Moses, or David to beleive the same message that Paul told the Philippian jailer: Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley

And another thought, When being saved in the Old Testament and the Gospels, it seems pretty clear that salvation is usually from physical enemies, disease, or death. When Peter cried,"Lord save me" (Matthew 14:30), he was not thinking about salvation from sin. Everything in the Old Covenant dealt with the physical side of salvation. You two are trying to spiritualize all the Old Covenant when it isnt warranted. Hence, your problem.

In Christ,
DRBrumley You're not very smart are you? You said:

"Everything in the Old Covenant dealt with the physical side of salvation."

What are you talking about? Jesus, when speaking to those under the Old Covenant, spoke of salvation in spiritual terms--eternal life, the forgiveness of sins, etc...

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?

Freak and Jerry, did God tell Able, or Noah, or Abram, or Moses, or David to beleive the same message that Paul told the Philippian jailer: Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." God has always required faith in Him. Nothing has changed to attain salvation.

[geoff]

God has only EVER asked for faith to be manifested in one way... obedience to His commands...

thats never changed.

[drbrumley]

Freak,

When Moses said to the people of Isreal "Do not be afraid. Stand still, and see the salvation of the LORD, which He will accomplish for you today. For the Egyptians whom you see today, you shall see again no more forever.

Is this spiritual?

When Saul declared,

Then the elders of Jabesh said to him, "Hold off for seven days, that we may send messengers to all the territory of Israel. And then, if there is no one to save us, we will come out to you."
13But Saul said, "Not a man shall be put to death this day, for today the LORD has accomplished salvation in Israel."

Is this spiritual?
----------------------------------------

Faith and works of faith are so closely identified that we may say that men in the past dispensations could NOT have been saved apart from the works which God commanded, since the works were the manifestation of their faith. Yet it was not the works by themselves which saved them, but their faith in God.

Romans 3:21, 22 shows the distinction between the obtaining of righteousness in this dispensation as compared to the former dispensation. In the Old Testament there was righteousness of God in association with the law, but Paul says, NOW the righteousness of God APART FROM THE LAW is manifested.

In this dispensation, God does not say, "Beleive and offer sacrifices, Beleive and be baptized, Beleive and be circumsized, Beleive and do anything else in order to be saved." Faith NOW is in the finished work of Christ. Faith accepts the fact that Christ has done all of the work necessary for salvation, and it simply rests in the completed work.

The beleivers life should have good works, but these arethe result of salvation and not a cause of it.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

[drbrumley]

Freak,

God has always required faith in Him. Nothing has changed to attain salvation

So that's it? Just faith in Him? He told you to do something and you didn't do it, is just your faith in Him enough?

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by drbrumley
Freak and Jerry, did God tell Able, or Noah, or Abram, or Moses, or David to beleive the same message that Paul told the Philippian jailer: Beleive on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
DRBrumbley,

All men are saved by grace through faith,and it is all made possible by the Cross.However,the revelation of God that man must believed has varied down through the ages.

And if it is of grace,it is not of works.And Peter said in no uncertain terms that he was saved by the grace of Jesus Christ just as the Gentiles are:

"We believe that it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

What better proof is there than the words of the inspired Apostle Peter,a man himself who lived under the law?

And again,if it is of grace,then it is not of works.Peter was not saved by "faith" plus "works" and neither were any of the believing Jews.

In His grace,--Jerry

[God_Is_Truth]

am i the only one here who doesn't know who Bob Enyart is?

[geoff]

yes...

even I have heard of him (and met him).. and I live in New Zealand..

I'm still recieving counseling :)

[1Way]

LOL

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by 1Way

LOL

all i have ever about Bob enyart is what is talked about on here which is not that reliable.

[drbrumley]

Brother Jerry,

All men are saved by grace through faith,and it is all made possible by the Cross.

AMEN!!!!! This is a good start.

However,the revelation of God that man must have believed has varied down through the ages.

Another fact!!!!!! This is basic truth!



And if it is of grace,it is not of works.

Please answer the following:

Is Circumsion of Grace?

Is the Mosiac Law of Grace?

And Peter said in no uncertain terms that he was saved by the grace of Jesus Christ just as the Gentiles are:"We believe that it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).


Yet our beloved brother Peter fell in the trap and temporarily forgetting ( giving the benefit of the doubt) by acting like the law applied to Gentiles wherein Paul had to set him straight.

What better proof is there than the words of the inspired Apostle Peter,a man himself who lived under the law?

That's fine. But I will stick with Paul who was the apostle to the Gentiles and was givin this Dispensation of Grace.

And again,if it is of grace,then it is not of works.Peter was not saved by "faith" plus "works" and neither were any of the believing Jews.

Sorry Jerry, but the 12 apostles never forsook the Kingdom rules.
Even the scriptures bare this out. James wrote to the JEWS, Peter's 2 books are to the JEWS.

On a further thought, the 12 will always be identified with Isreal.

From the Plot.

Not until God gave Paul "the dispensation of Grace" for the Gentiles could any beleiver since Abraham live out from under the law (Romans 6:14). Yet even after God called Paul, the 12 and their early converts continued under the law. For Paul's message was for the "uncircumsion" (Gal 2:7), wheaeas the 12's ministry CONTINUED to the "circumsion" (Gal 2:9) and even their followers ministered "to no one but the JEWS ONLY" (Acts 11:19)

In Christ,
DRBrumley

[1Way]

God is Truth

You don't know who Bob Enyart is...
You say that what is talked about Bob Enyart here is not reliable.
You quoted me laughing.

I don't get what you are thinking about by quoting me. I thought geoff was funny, talking about meeting Bob once, so now he is still in therapy, he still has a sense of humor, even though he cant stand anything to do with BEL. I met Bob a few times and went to one of his seminars and a few of his TV shows, he's a very interesting character. Bob, not geoff. Geoff is interesting, but in a very different way. ;)

[God_Is_Truth]

You don't know who Bob Enyart is...
You say that what is talked about Bob Enyart here is not reliable.
You quoted me laughing.


i figured you were laughing because i'd never heard of Bob enyart before these boards :doh:


I don't get what you are thinking about by quoting me. I thought geoff was funny, talking about meeting Bob once, so now he is still in therapy, he still has a sense of humor, even though he cant stand anything to do with BEL. I met Bob a few times and went to one of his seminars and a few of his TV shows, he's a very interesting character. Bob, not geoff. Geoff is interesting, but in a very different way.

geoff was funny too looking back on what he wrote :D so do a lot of people around here follow on what Bob teaches or do most reject him or somewhere in the middle? what's the deal with bob?

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Freak,


Faith and works of faith are so closely identified that we may say that men in the past dispensations could NOT have been saved apart from the works which God commanded, Why are you so confused? Why? Throughout the Holy Scripture the salvation theme is consistent.

Moses wrote:

Then the word of the LORD came to him: "This man will not be your heir, but a son coming from your own body will be your heir." He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars-if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Abram believed the LORD , and he credited it to him as righteousness.

The prophet of Old Habakkuk tells us:

For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it will certainly come and will not delay.

"See, he is puffed up;
his desires are not upright-
but the righteous will live by his faith."

Then the great apostle Paul of the New Covenant said:

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

The beleivers life should have good works, but these arethe result of salvation and not a cause of it.

In Christ,
DRBrumley Your spelling is hideous, my friend.

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Freak,



So that's it? Just faith in Him? He told you to do something and you didn't do it, is just your faith in Him enough? For salvation of course.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Freak

For salvation of course.

What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

Book of James, Chapter 2:21-24, it says this:
James 2
21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Notice that in verse 23 it says, "the Scripture was fulfilled". Abram had his faith accounted for righteousnes in the previous dispensation, promise. Then, in the next one, circumcision, when he was justified by works and faith, the Scripture from the previous dispensation, promise, was fulfilled.

Jam 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

[Zakath]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
... so do a lot of people around here follow on what Bob teaches or do most reject him or somewhere in the middle? what's the deal with bob?
The owners of the board and some of the moderators are disciples of Enyart, and some of them attend his church. His radio broadcast (Bob Enyart Live) is even given its own forum (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=42) here on TOL where his followers faithfully post links to each broadcast. There were enough questions raised about the financial relationship between Enyart and TOL early on that the following disclaimer now appears on the TOL homepage:

TheologyOnLine is not affiliated financially with ANY church, organization or ministry of any type. TheologyOnLine operates solely on the donations of it's participants. If you can donate please consider donating any amount to keep TheologyOnLine "online"!

Enyart is what I would term a "Christian radio shock jock" who has bounced on and off of various radio and television venues over the last ten to fifteen years. His "bread and butter" message has been a self-proclaimed homophobia and a variety of Christian Reconstructionism that wants to institute an monarchy to replace the democratic republic we currently have in the U.S. According to his writings, this government would also be accompanied by revamping of the federal legal code to institute portions of the Mosaic law as the federal law of the U.S.

He recently started a church and since becoming a pastor Enyart has, of necessity, toned down some of his more egregious positions and removed most of the content from his "shadow government" site.

Sites owned or run by Enyart include KGOV.com, BobEnyartLive.com, Shadowgov.com and DenverBibleChurch.com

[God_Is_Truth]

thanks for the info Zakath! appreciate it. :thumb:

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by drbrumley
Is Circumsion of Grace?
Brother DRBrumbley,

No,"circumcision" is a part of the law.
Is the Mosiac Law of Grace?
No.Paul speaks of the "works" of the law as being a "curse":

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"(Gal.3:10).

That does not sound like "grace" to me.And Peter called the law a "yoke" which he says that neither him nor his forefathers were able to bear:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"(Acts15:10).

Again,that does not sound like "grace" to me.And the very next verse Peter makes it plain that he was saved by "grace" just as the Gentile believers are saved by "grace":

"We believe that it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

But this is all you can say about Peter's words:
Yet our beloved brother Peter fell in the trap and temporarily forgetting ( giving the benefit of the doubt) by acting like the law applied to Gentiles wherein Paul had to set him straight.
We are not talking about whether or not the the law applied to the Gentiles,but instead the words of Peter as to how he was saved.He said that he was saved by "grace" just as are the Gentile believers.

Paul makes it is plain as possible that the believing remnant out of the nation of Israel were saved by the election of grace:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace"(Ro.11:5,6).

The Jewish believers were saved by "grace" (as Peter says),and if it of "grace" then it is not of "works".

So there can be no doubt whatsoever that the Jews were saved by "faith" alone.
Sorry Jerry, but the 12 apostles never forsook the Kingdom rules.
Even the scriptures bare this out. James wrote to the JEWS, Peter's 2 books are to the JEWS.
Paul says that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth"(Ro.10:4).

The Twelve Apostles obviously "believed" and so there can be no doubt that for them Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for them.

But according to your ideas the Jewish believers must continue to attempt to establish their own righteousness by keeping the law.
From the Plot.

Not until God gave Paul "the dispensation of Grace" for the Gentiles could any beleiver since Abraham live out from under the law (Romans 6:14). Yet even after God called Paul, the 12 and their early converts continued under the law. For Paul's message was for the "uncircumsion" (Gal 2:7), wheaeas the 12's ministry CONTINUED to the "circumsion" (Gal 2:9) and even their followers ministered "to no one but the JEWS ONLY" (Acts 11:19)
Yes,the Jewish believers continued to follow the law through the Acts period.But this following of the law was not in order so they might establish their own righteousness.Instead,the Lord had a purpose for them continuing to keep the law during the Acts period.And that purpose is the same purpose which Paul speaks about in regard to his ministry to the Jews and his participation in the rituals of the law as seen at Acts 21:26.Here are his words to explain his actions,and they can be applied to the Jerusalem church as well:

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law"(1Cor.9:20).

After the Acts period came to a close we can see that the Jewish believers no longer referred to themselves as "Jews" but now they refer to themselves as "Christians"(1Pet.4:16).And during the Acts period they remained under the law,but after that period came to an end they were "at liberty" from the law (1Pet.2:16 compare with Gal.5:1,13).

In His grace,--Jerry

[Zakath]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

thanks for the info Zakath! appreciate it. :thumb: You're welcome. :)

[geoff]

my brain hurts... I've never read so much dribble in my life.. zakath is the only one who has made any sense so far.. except for

1way:
LOL

I can recommend reading Dr G Bahnsen's book, Theonomy in Christian Ethics, especially the first section, regarding the abrogation of the law. If you havent read that, you shouldnt be debating this, IMHO.

[1Way]

God Is Truth - Oh man, talk about getting snowed. You just thanked Zakath for a load of crap he just dumped right in front of you. Zakath practically hates us Enyartians, he is a devout atheist (for the sake of pure foolishness), I'm telling you. Don't listen to him (except for some of the raw data). Check out the Battle Royal VII, it's Bob Enyart verses Zakath(!) entitled "Does God exist? " Bob totally demolished him, he went way beyond the call of duty, did an outstanding job of providing a lot of scientific evidence and such. Zakath didn't even finish, let alone put up a respectable fight. Zakath does have some of the core basics right, but colored in remarks are all "off color" and biased against him, go figure.

Bob is the best bible study teacher I have ever come across, especially in terms of having a total big picture understanding of God's word. His does not specialize in linguistics or cutting edge scholarship, as much as a solid consistent bible wide understanding. He is great on practical application and clear and logical presentations. He does seminars around the country and is writing his second book, a sequel to The Plot. That should really be something.

I though you had been here a long time, are you pulling our legs that you don't know about who Bob E is?

One little side note, I was at John Mangopolis's (spl?) house (seriouis conservative and friend/associate of Bob's) one night that Bob was asked about the "open view", and a bit to my surprise, he had not heard about it yet! He said that he does not keep up much on theology per say. He's a bible man. :thumb: Bob Enyart and Bob Hill (his old pastor and dean of Derby school of theology) have been longtime proponents of the open view, but perhaps they called it free will theism without the Calvinism or something like that. That was at the taping of Bob Enyart debating Brian Swartly on Predestination, and boy was that debate great. That weekend was so much fun. We even had a thing John calls the heretic club, where everyone gets together and sort of takes off the gloves and gets serious and lively about God and politics and bible and other such eternally minded things. That was a great night too!

About the financial disclaimer. Knight and his family, along with another Christian family, his sister and brother in law have been carrying the financial load without any church or ministry backing all this time! Knight does this as a part time hobby! He doesn't make money off this, although I think it is growing and I hope it does better, it costs alot of time and effort and a sizable enough amount of money to make it all happen. So in order to help others understand the nature of this website's financial situation, of course they needed to make it clear that this website is brought to you by some regular folks who happen to have big hearts but NOT a big expense account. [u]Some go out of their way to try to make BEL and TOL look bad, saying things like that this site is probably financially backed by BEL so they really aren't hurting for donations like the say they are, so the clarification was useful and sincere, not a shadey response. For a long time, the websit has been just a hobby, I don't think that Knight really expected so many people to make it what it has become and is becoming, but the donations have been very modest, I know that TOL has always been in the red as far as donations go, but that may be turning around in recent times, I hope. Those two families have gone though a lot just for all of us!

Reading Freaks (CORRECTION) Zakath's description is one part informative, and 2 parts agregious. Bob has been a pastor now for probably over 3 years or so, and I know of nothing about him toning down or removing content because he is now in a more reputation sensative vocation, the way Freak puts it. I have not visited ShadowGov much, but it was an interestingt site. Your open view, so your half way there to the teachings in the Plot!

I hope this helps.

[Knight]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

thanks for the info Zakath! appreciate it. :thumb: Just so you know... Zakath is not a reliable source.

[Knight]

Originally posted by 1Way

I can't believe Zak had the nerve 2 trash B.E after being so wipped!

God Is Truth - Oh man, talk about getting snowed. You just thanked Zakath for a load of crap he just dumped right in front of you. Zakath practically hates us Enyartians (or BELite, hmmm), he is a devout atheist for the sake of pure foolishness, I'm telling you. Don't listen to him (except for some of the raw data). Check out the Battle Royal VII, it's Bob Enyart verses Zakath(!) entitled "Does God exist? " Bob totally demolished him, he went way beyond the call of duty, did an outstanding job of providing a lot of scientific evidence and such. Zakath didn't even finish, let alone put up a respectable fight. Zakath does have some of the core basics right, but colored in remarks are all "off color" and biased against him, go figure. :D I had to read that paragraph twice it was so funny! :chuckle:

And true. :up:

[1Way]

Thanks Knight! I'm an editing fool, you got my somewhat rough, almost ready version, please see my above post first paragraph for the finished product. I'm a bit slow sometimes in catching mistakes. :o

I hope that that lower middle para about the financies meets your approval too.

[God_Is_Truth]

relax 1Way, i wasn't only going to believe what Zakath said about him. i used it as a start (zakath isn't a liar but perhaps has a slight bias towards Bob because of the battle royale which i do remember now) to getting you guys to get going and explain who you think he is. that way i get both sides of information (pro and against) giving me an all around better picture of who Bob Enyart is.

i have been around on these boards for a little while now, something like a year i think and have only heard bits and pieces of who Bob is. i knew he was in that debate so i figured out he was a christian pastor but other than that i had NEVER heard of him in my life. seriously.

thanks for enhancing my knowledge of who Bob is 1Way :up:

[Behira]

What does the proberb say about a many who uses many words?

[1Way]

10-4 God Is Truth, I figured you were perhaps looking for more. ;)Zakath is more honest than some, but God calls the atheist a fool for a good reason, basically they reject truth in the most significant ways, so his upright nature is certainly in doubt even if he gets some facts correct. You are more than welcome for the assistance, anytime. As far as the uptight response :sozo2: , that's just me, and not because of you but for Zakath's case, he needs someone to keep him in check. I figured as much about your intentions, but your thumbs up was a bit too affirming for me, so you sort of asked for it. But you hooked me in so I guess it worked! All in good fun. :thumb:

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Brother DRBrumbley,

No,"circumcision" is a part of the law.

No.Paul speaks of the "works" of the law as being a "curse":

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"(Gal.3:10).

That does not sound like "grace" to me.And Peter called the law a "yoke" which he says that neither him nor his forefathers were able to bear:

"Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"(Acts15:10).

Again,that does not sound like "grace" to me.And the very next verse Peter makes it plain that he was saved by "grace" just as the Gentile believers are saved by "grace":

"We believe that it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

But this is all you can say about Peter's words:

We are not talking about whether or not the the law applied to the Gentiles,but instead the words of Peter as to how he was saved.He said that he was saved by "grace" just as are the Gentile believers.

Paul makes it is plain as possible that the believing remnant out of the nation of Israel were saved by the election of grace:

"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace"(Ro.11:5,6).

The Jewish believers were saved by "grace" (as Peter says),and if it of "grace" then it is not of "works".

So there can be no doubt whatsoever that the Jews were saved by "faith" alone.

Paul says that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth"(Ro.10:4).

The Twelve Apostles obviously "believed" and so there can be no doubt that for them Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for them.

But according to your ideas the Jewish believers must continue to attempt to establish their own righteousness by keeping the law.

Yes,the Jewish believers continued to follow the law through the Acts period.But this following of the law was not in order so they might establish their own righteousness.Instead,the Lord had a purpose for them continuing to keep the law during the Acts period.And that purpose is the same purpose which Paul speaks about in regard to his ministry to the Jews and his participation in the rituals of the law as seen at Acts 21:26.Here are his words to explain his actions,and they can be applied to the Jerusalem church as well:

"And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law"(1Cor.9:20).

After the Acts period came to a close we can see that the Jewish believers no longer referred to themselves as "Jews" but now they refer to themselves as "Christians"(1Pet.4:16).And during the Acts period they remained under the law,but after that period came to an end they were "at liberty" from the law (1Pet.2:16 compare with Gal.5:1,13).

In His grace,--Jerry


Brother Jerry,

I had asked two questions in which you graciously answered. Thank You!

Question 1-Is Circumsion of Grace? And you replied

No,"circumcision" is a part of the law.

Question 2-Is the Mosiac Law of Grace? And you replied

No.Paul speaks of the "works" of the law as being a "curse":

These are the correct answers. What gets me Jerry is since you know this, you can still say the Jews were saved by faith with NO works. It is clear in scripture that the Jews had to keep the law. Otherwise they were doomed. Individually and collectively. There are exceptions (David comes to mind), but that is only because of God's DIRECT intervention.

And Peter called the law a "yoke" which he says that neither him nor his forefathers were able to bear:

and

And the very next verse Peter makes it plain that he was saved by "grace" just as the Gentile believers are saved by "grace":

Yes Jerry, this is correct. After Paul's conversion, there were no Jews or Gentiles. So Peter would be correct in making these statements. Also, Peter had a hard time with Paul's teachings. Paul did not teach what Jesus taught while our Lord was walking this earth. Jesus taught "keep the commandments", did he not? Paul said no! Cause the commandments are the ministry of death.

WE are talking about a time frame here Jerry. What applies to us now and since Isreal was cast aside is not the same as when the 12 were walking with Jesus. This is basic understanding. The Jews had to keep the law. Or die. And as Peter says, they couldn't do it.

This is fasinating studying scripture and being able to have a deep, meaningful discussion on this topic. I will have to finish the rest of your post tomorrow being I work at 4 AM and have to hit the bed. But thank you for this thread and may God Bless You.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

[1Way]

Behira - Ah yes, the proverb of verbose-man. Tell us please, what does it say.

That was cool, DrBrumley and myself posted at (very nearly) the same time, I expected to see my post, but saw his instead. But it was a pleasant surprise, he's a great poster.

[drbrumley]

And before I go,

I want to thank 1Way for the graciousness and humility in his presentation of the arguments at hand. It is a blessing to witness other brothers and sisters willing to speak of such matters in the attitude he gives on these boards. I wish there were more like him. God Bless You 1 Way!

In Christ,
DRBrumley

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by 1Way

10-4 God Is Truth, I figured you were perhaps looking for more. ;)Zakath is more honest than some, but God calls the atheist a fool for a good reason, basically they reject truth in the most significant ways, so his upright nature is certainly in doubt even if he gets some facts correct. You are more than welcome for the assistance, anytime. As far as the uptight response :sozo2: , that's just me, and not because of you but for Zakath's case, he needs someone to keep him in check. I figured as much about your intentions, but your thumbs up was a bit too affirming for me, so you sort of asked for it. But you hooked me in so I guess it worked! All in good fun. :thumb:

glad to see we understand each other :D

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way


Reading Freaks description is one part informative, and 2 parts agregious. Bob has been a pastpr now for probably over 3 years or so, and I know of nothing about him toning down or removing content because he is now in a more reputation sensative vocation, the way Freak puts it. I have not visited ShadowGov much, but it was an interestingt site. Your open view, so your half way there to the teachings in the Plot!

I hope this helps. When did I give such a description? :nono: Why do you do this?

[Freak]

Originally posted by drbrumley

These are the correct answers. What gets me Jerry is since you know this, you can still say the Jews were saved by faith with NO works. It is clear in scripture that the Jews had to keep the law. Otherwise they were doomed. Individually and collectively. In Christ,
DRBrumley DR says this despite what Jesus declared over & over again in the Gospel of John:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?


Jesus was talking to the Jewish people! Get this through your thick skull. :bang: Works were not required but only faith/belief in Him.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Knight

Just so you know... Zakath is not a reliable source. How so? Was anything I wrote in my post on this thread factually incorrect? :think:

[1Way]

Freak - As to you saying When did I give such a description? :nono: Why do you do this? I made a mistake, thanks for the correction, but no thanks for implying that I make such mistakes on purpose. You are being slanderous and accusing without any justification, I just mixed up your name with his, which is somewhat a natural mistake because when it comes to agregous misrepresntations, you are the king. You make Zak look fairly good in comparison, but the important point is that you are a false accuser, you do misrepresent the truth, and I mistakenly mixed up your names and I'm sorry for doing that. Here's my standing corrected.

Reading Freaks (CORRECTION) Zakath's description is one part informative, and 2 parts agregious. Bob has been a pastor now for probably over 3 years or so, and I know of nothing about him toning down or removing content because he is now in a more reputation sensative vocation, the way Freak puts it. I have not visited ShadowGov much, but it was an interestingt site. Your open view, so your half way there to the teachings in the Plot!

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by drbrumley
It is clear in scripture that the Jews had to keep the law. Otherwise they were doomed. Individually and collectively.
Brother DRBrumbley,

You failed to addresss one of the verses I gave you:

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believeth"(Ro.10:4).

Those who believed at that time included both Gentiles and Jews.So we can clearly see that the Jews were not made righteous by the law!
Jesus taught "keep the commandments", did he not? Paul said no! Cause the commandments are the ministry of death.
After the Acts period the law was no longer binding on the Jewish believers.That is what the epistle to the Hebrews is all about:

"For if that first covenant had been faultless,then should no place had been sought for the second"(Heb.8:7).

"For the law made nothing perfect,but the bringing in of a better hope did...so much was Jesus made a surety of a better covenant"(Heb.7:19,22).
This is basic understanding. The Jews had to keep the law. Or die. And as Peter says, they couldn't do it.
So none of the Jews were saved?

You just cannot seem to understand that the Mosaic Covenant was no longer binding on the Jwish believers after the Acts period.The whole epistle to the Hebrews is about the fact that the Mosaic Covenant has been done away and replaced by the New.

Despite the fact that Paul writes that "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believeth",you say that the Jews must establish their own righteousness by keeping the law.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Jerry Shugart]

Freak,

I just cannot understand why those who follow the teaching of Bob Enyart and Bob Hill continue to refuse to address the words of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Jews where it is plain that "faith" is all that is required for salvation.

They act like those verses are not even there.They go out of their way to avoid these words of our Lord and Savior.Perhaps they think that if they close their eyes and pretend that they are not there then they will go away.

But they will not go away.Here is the Lord Jesus telling the Jews that whoever "believes" has eternal life and is passed from death unto life:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

Freak,I can just imagine them reading these words and then quickly covering their eyes with their hands so that they cannot see these words of the Lord Jesus!

In His grace,--Jerry

[Zakath]

Originally posted by 1Way
...Bob has been a pastor now for probably over 3 years or so,
When you're my age, 3 years is "recent". :)

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Zakath

When you're my age, 3 years is "recent". :)

:crackup:

[Zakath]

Laugh now, DR, but your day will come! :chuckle:

I've gotta go put on more liniment... ;)

[1Way]

Jerry, just admit it, you are not even trying to understand what we are saying, the only reason you post what you do is to defend your presuppositions, you do not, and seemingly, can not, objectively consider and evaluate a position without letting your presuppositions override your supposed objectivity. The proof of that for me is that I can tell you 5 articles of my faith 30 times over the course of 50 posts, and you keep misunderstanding my views the entire time, therefore I KNOW that you are arguing from ignorance and from your own preconceptions which eliminate your false pretense of objectivity.

Just admit it, it will make you feel a whole lot better, and then we can all drop trying to do something that is impossible to do, make you understand what we are saying.

[1Way]

Or, if you understand our view so well, the be a good sport and faithfully represent it, if you can't or wont do that, then your bias and willfull ignorance is only obvious. You do a good job arguing your own preconceptions, but when it comes to ours, you are willfully ignorant.

But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. 1Cor 14.38

Don't be a swine, be a Berean objectively seeking the truth, not by man's thinking, but by God's word.

[geoff]

I spent 18 months researching Jesus, Paul and the Law. I wrote a 10,000 word thesis on it. I even passed!

This whole "The jews were all legalists" idea is very very old, and very outdated. E P Sanders and Albert Schweitzer(sp?) (and a few others) shot this down in the last 20 years. Even hardened Lutherans like Stephen Westerholm have had to admit that this was a false idea.

Basically, Rabinnic/judaistic writings confirm that the teachers of the Jews did not consider the law something that would save, but rather, something that one obeyed BECAUSE one was saved. Salvation was faith only.

If the Jews own writing confirm this, it means that the people Jesus and Paul dealt with did NOT represent ALL of Judaism, but a minority, a few sects and cults within the larger framework. Saying that the Bible teaches that all Jews were legalists based on this, is a bit like saying "all Chinamen are short".

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Freak,

I just cannot understand why those who follow the teaching of Bob Enyart and Bob Hill continue to refuse to address the words of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Jews where it is plain that "faith" is all that is required for salvation. It's called spiritual blindness and ignorance. The god of this age (Satan) has blinded their minds...

They act like those verses are not even there.They go out of their way to avoid these words of our Lord and Savior.Perhaps they think that if they close their eyes and pretend that they are not there then they will go away. It's strange indeed. Jesus was consistent throughout the Gospels that faith alone brought salvation, eternal life.

But they will not go away.Here is the Lord Jesus telling the Jews that whoever "believes" has eternal life and is passed from death unto life:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24). So clear!

Freak,I can just imagine them reading these words and then quickly covering their eyes with their hands so that they cannot see these words of the Lord Jesus!

In His grace,--Jerry It's laughable that they reject Christ for the bondage of the law. :kookoo:

Jesus once asked:

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?

[Freak]

Originally posted by 1Way to Jerry


Don't be a swine, be a Berean objectively seeking the truth, not by man's thinking, but by God's word. You're calling Jerry a swine? Yet you're the one acting like a devil. 1Way, Jesus Himself would harshly rebuke you as you deny His very own words...

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Freak
It's laughable that they reject Christ for the bondage of the law. Actually it's no laughing matter to them. It's vital to their intended theonomy that Mosaic law is applicable today. Without it how would they justify human slavery, or killing homosexuals, adulterers, and abortionists?

[geoff]

Originally posted by Zakath

Actually it's no laughing matter to them. It's vital to their intended theonomy that Mosaic law is applicable today. Without it how would they justify human slavery, or killing homosexuals, adulterers, and abortionists?

And that is a departure from "most" theonomist teachings - in an extreme, take it as far it can go, kinda way.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by geoff

And that is a departure from "most" theonomist teachings - in an extreme, take it as far it can go, kinda way. Well, one thing for certain is that we usually don't have to worry about Enyartians following the crowd doctrinally... :chuckle:

[geoff]

How true :)

[drbrumley]

Ok, just when you think we are having a meaningful and thoughtful fellowshipping Bible Study, Jerry makes his sarcastic post, Freak puts his two cents worth and Geoff decides to join in the "we know better than you club." You three ought to be ashamed. Your not in this discussion to learn as I am or 1Way. Your here to mock what you do not understand and willfully I might add. So much for civility. The 3 Stooges are alive and well here on TOL!

And the funny thing is, an athesist who LEFT God is right behind them.:down: Wonder if that means something?:think: :kookoo:

[Zakath]

Originally posted by drbrumley
... an athesist who LEFT God is right behind them.:down: Wonder if that means something?:think: Perhaps I merely arrived late to the party. :D

[geoff]

drb,


Would you like a reading list.. so you can catch up? Seriously.. no insult intended..

You should start with "Paul" by E P Sanders. And "What St Paul Really Said" By N T Wright. Then "Israels Law and the Church's Faith" By Stephen Westerholm (good summary of all the various positions at the beginning of this book).

Once you have read these, I can give you a more advanced reading list.

If you dont believe me, ask Jaltus or GreyPilgrim, if they are still around.

As for your insults.. ah well, I forgive you.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by geoff

If you dont believe me, ask Jaltus or GreyPilgrim, if they are still around.
Jaltus now mods on another board and hasn't posted here on TOL in over a year, I don't remember the other person. :think:

[geoff]

ahh, well there ya go.. I could get him to make a guest appearance..

like this:

<Jaltus> Yes, Geoff is 100% right about everything...

did that work?

[drbrumley]

Ahhhhhhh, Jaltus. Let's see if I remember Jaltus. Oh yes. He ran from Bob Hill in a way older thread here. He also didnt respond to me at the other forum where he currently resides. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that he was to busy.

Ok Jerry,you want to have a battleroyal on this topic? Fine by me. Let's make it a tagteam or 3 on 3.It doesnt have to be a Battle Royal though. It can be HERE! (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=34)

Shoot, someone give Jaltus the link and he can join you!!!!

[drbrumley]

And since Geoff is so fond of Brother Jaltus, shoot, we can even go there and do this. Doesn't matter to me.

[Freak]

Originally posted by geoff


You should start with "Paul" by E P Sanders. And "What St Paul Really Said" By N T Wright. N.T. Wright, one of the finest New Testament scholars in the world. Good read!

[geoff]

freak,

Yes, NT Wright is a legend. I have heard him speak, seen a few videos and read everything I can get my hands on. He rawks.

drb,

is this some kind of competition?
Run away? Bob Hill doesnt scare anyone.. why would anyone run away? he's a lovely old (slightly misguided ;) ) man.

Most likely, Jaltus probably got bored throwing out his pearls here, shook the dust off his feet and went elsewhere...
I know I sure did/do.

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by geoff

I spent 18 months researching Jesus, Paul and the Law. I wrote a 10,000 word thesis on it. I even passed!

Wow, that's cool. Let me do the :bannana: :bannana: for you. Look Geoff, I'm happy you passed but if the seminary teaches what we are talking about wrong and you pass, then it is still wrong. Make sense?

Originally posted by geoff

This whole "The jews were all legalists" idea is very very old, and very outdated. E P Sanders and Albert Schweitzer(sp?) (and a few others) shot this down in the last 20 years. Even hardened Lutherans like Stephen Westerholm have had to admit that this was a false idea.

Basically, Rabinnic/judaistic writings confirm that the teachers of the Jews did not consider the law something that would save, but rather, something that one obeyed BECAUSE one was saved. Salvation was faith only.

If the Jews own writing confirm this, it means that the people Jesus and Paul dealt with did NOT represent ALL of Judaism, but a minority, a few sects and cults within the larger framework. Saying that the Bible teaches that all Jews were legalists based on this, is a bit like saying "all Chinamen are short".

This is not what 1way and I are saying. What we are saying is by Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, ALL people who followed God are saved, whether PAST, PRESENT and FUTURE. It is by his blood. Moses was saved by the Blood of Jesus. But it is foolish to suggest that he knew it when God called him. God gave him commands to give to Isreal, which he was part of that nation, and He had to follow.

An example. God said circumsion was neccessary. Moses decided for whatever reason to NOT circumsize his son. God was going to kill him for not doing it. The leader of Isreal, who saw God and his power in the burning bush, wasn't going to do what God had commanded. The only thing that saved his life was his wife went ahead and did the circumsion. Moses was going to throw away his relationship with God by not circumsizing his son. But God showed Mercy upon Moses when the circumsion was completed. Moses had faith, yes! And was saved by that faith. Yes! But he HAD to follow the law as God commanded. He had to show his faith. (works) That he didn't do. And it almost cost him his life with God. Does this make any sense to you? I pray it does.

In Christ,
DRBrumley

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by 1Way
Jerry, just admit it, you are not even trying to understand what we are saying, the only reason you post what you do is to defend your presuppositions, you do not, and seemingly, can not, objectively consider and evaluate a position without letting your presuppositions override your supposed objectivity.
1Way,

I do understand what you are saying.But I cannot bring my mind into believing that even though Peter was saved by "grace" that "works" were necessary for his salvation.

That is because if it is of grace then it is not of works.

You just cannot seem to understand this simple principle.If someone must "work" for salvation,then this salvation is no longer a free gift.
The proof of that for me is that I can tell you 5 articles of my faith 30 times over the course of 50 posts, and you keep misunderstanding my views the entire time, therefore I KNOW that you are arguing from ignorance and from your own preconceptions which eliminate your false pretense of objectivity.
You keep repeating your misconceptions but that does not mean that I do not understand what you are saying.I am not arguing from my own preconceptions,but instead I am using the Scriptures to prove my point.

For instance,the following words of the Lord Jesus Christ were spoken directly to the Jews,and there is no doubt that the Lord Jesus was teaching that "faith" alone brings everlasting life:

" He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:24,25).

And frankly,it does not surprise me in the least that those who deny the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ would revert to the practice of name-calling.I have been called worse than "swine" so your words will not cause me to back down or to go away.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by drbrumley
Ok, just when you think we are having a meaningful and thoughtful fellowshipping Bible Study, Jerry makes his sarcastic post...
Brother DRBrumley,

I admit that I was being sarcastic.But I was doing that for a purpose--to get you to believe what the Lord Jesus Himself said to the Jews:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:24,25).

If you are correct,then it would be impossible that the Lord Jesus would be telling the Jews that "faith" was all that was necessary for salvation.But that is exactly what He told the Jews.

Now if my interpretation of the words of the Lord Jesus is not correct,then I will ask you for a correction.

What is your interpretation of the meaning of the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24 & 25?

In His grace,--Jerry

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Brother DRBrumley,

If you are correct,then it would be impossible that the Lord Jesus would be telling the Jews that "faith" was all that was necessary for salvation.But that is exactly what He told the Jews.

Now if my interpretation of the words of the Lord Jesus is not correct,then I will ask you for a correction.

What is your interpretation of the meaning of the words of the Lord Jesus at John 5:24 & 25?

In His grace,--Jerry These guys are laughable. The Lord Jesus was clear, faith alone brought eternal life. Unless, they have a Enyartian interpretation of John 5 that trumps Jesus' own words. :crackup:

[Freak]

Drbrumley, well...

Jesus speaking to the Jews said this:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

If the Jews under the Old Covenant believed Jesus, in light, of what He said here, would they attain eternal life?

[*Acts9_12Out*]

1Way and dr,

I apologize for joining so late. I have been very busy these past couple of weeks. I want you both to know that you are doing an excellent job and have both shown great patience with Jerry, Freak, Zak and geoff.

What I find comical as I read the first 7 pages of this thread is, Jerry and Freak actually disagree. If you read their "proof texts" for "faith," you will see that they believe two different things. For example, Freak said,


I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?

Freak argues that "faith in Jesus" is all that is necessary. However, Jerry quotes John 5:24,

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

Jerry argues "belief in Him that sent Me" as the "faith" requirement. Which is it guys? Do we need to have "faith" in Jesus or Him who sent Jesus?

The problem with Freak and Jerry is they fail to understand that the audience in all of these passages understood that "faith" meant "faith in something." Freak even quotes a wonderful passage from John 8 above...

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.

In this context, who does Jesus claim to be? The Jews listening to Christ in John 8 realize that Christ is claiming to be the promised Messiah that they have been waiting for. They needed to have "faith" that He was the Messiah, or they would not be saved. More on this in a minute. Jerry said,

Freak,

I just cannot understand why those who follow the teaching of Bob Enyart and Bob Hill continue to refuse to address the words of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Jews where it is plain that "faith" is all that is required for salvation.


It is plain Jerry? I love how you pick and choose what is "plain" and what is figurative. We all must have faith in something, and Gos decides how Hewants man to show that faith. Jerry, Freak, Zak and geoff will all be hard pressed to find one instance where the Jews walking the earth with Christ ever "had faith in" His death, burial and resurrection for salvation. In fact, Christ outright tells Peter He is going to die, and what is Peter'as response? "Not so Lord!" (Matt 16). Jerry continues,

They act like those verses are not even there.They go out of their way to avoid these words of our Lord and Savior.Perhaps they think that if they close their eyes and pretend that they are not there then they will go away.

Nice try Jerry. You fail to realize that we understand the context of each of those statements. It is quite simple to quote a verse and say, "See guys? Plain as day!" I would like to challenge Jerry's contention that "faith / belief" is all that was necessary... BTW, a BattleRoyal sounds great to me...

Let's take a look at the 8th chapter of John (which Freak actually quoted from above). Jerry begins with,

But they will not go away.Here is the Lord Jesus telling the Jews that whoever "believes" has eternal life and is passed from death unto life:

Uh oh Jerry, looks like you got us... :nono: Let's reason together from John 8. The chapter opens with a woman caught in adultery. The scribes and Pharisees attempt to test Christ by challenging Him with the law of Moses. However, these men are hypocrites and judging her as such. In verse 7, Christ challenges them, and rightly addresses their hypocrisy. The "accusers" were convicted by their conscience and went out. Christ sends the woman on her way and commands her to no longer commit adultery. The scribes and Pharisees call Jesus to the carpet and try to discredit Him. In John 8:14-29, Jesus defends His "self-witness" and establishes that He is indeed the promised Messiah. In verse 24, He tells them that if they do not believe that He is indeed the Messiah, they will die in their sins. Yes Jerry and Freak, they had to believe He was the promised Messiah. There is nothing in this context that even begins to allude to belief in the death, burial and resurrection for salvation, or just have a generic "faith" for that matter. Now we come to the most interesting part of the passage... As Christ is speaking these words (establishing that He is the Messaih), many believe in Him.

John 8
30 As He spoke these words, many believed in Him.
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

What does Jesus tell "those who believed in Him?" They needed to abide in His word. Wait! I thought "faith alone" was enough! What the heck is Jesus talking about Jerry / Freak? It gets better...

The Jews who just believed in Him are now offended. They claim they do not need to be set free from anything.

John 8
33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, "You will be made free'?"

Jesus answers,

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever.
36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Now, what happens to these Jews who recently "believed" in Him?

John 8
37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you.
38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father."

Now they seek to kill Him? I thought they just "believed / had faith" in Him and that was enough? It gets better...

John 8
39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

<sarcasm>Wait a second Lord! Jerry and Freak say that "faith" is enough! Why are you telling them that if they were of Abraham, they would do the works of Abraham?</sarcasm> It gets better...

John 8
40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this.
41 You do the deeds of your father."
Then they said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father--God."

Huh? Ten verses ago, these guys "believed" in Jesus. Now they seek to kill Him? What gives Jerry / Freak? They even claim to believe in God and have Abraham as their father (Remember, Jerry said "faith in Him who sent Jesus" was enough). It gets better...

John 8
42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.
43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me.
46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?
47 He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God."

These guys "believed" in Jesus in verse 30. Now, Christ tells them they are of their father the devil. They do not believe Him. They are not of God (even though they said they were). The chapter continues with these "believers" challenging Christ. He goes on to tell them that He is God (v 58). What do these believers do? They take up stones to kill Him (v 59).

Jerry / Freak, what gives?

Again, the problem is, neither of you rightly understand that man must have faith in whatever God asks him to have faith in. God is Gracious to send His Son to die for mankind, but man must have faith. God asks man to show that faith in different ways. The Jews in John 8 needed to "believe / have faith in" the promised Messiah standing right in front of them. God asks us to "believe / have faith in" the death, burial and ressurection. It really is quite simple Jerry / Freak...

1Way and dr, keep up the good work!

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

[Freak]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*


--Jeremy Finkenbinder So you agree that when Jesus stated:

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

...that belief/faith in Him was all that was needed to attain eternal life & status as a child of God?

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Typical Freak...

So you agree that when Jesus stated:

Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

...that belief/faith in Him was all that was needed to attain eternal life & status as a child of God?

Yeah, like the Jews "who believed in Him" and then sought to kill Him... They must be believers since they "believed" in Him, but are now of their father the devil, right?

Since you didn't answer, I'll ask again... Are you implying that the Jews in John 8 are "children of God" simply because they had faith in Christ?

How about something with substance this time Freak?

--Jeremy

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*
Freak argues that "faith in Jesus" is all that is necessary. However, Jerry quotes John 5:24,

Jerry argues "belief in Him that sent Me" as the "faith" requirement. Which is it guys? Do we need to have "faith" in Jesus or Him who sent Jesus?
Jeremy,

Those who believed the words of the Lord Jesus were also believing the words of the Father--"For He Whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God"(Jn.3:34).
The problem with Freak and Jerry is they fail to understand that the audience in all of these passages understood that "faith" meant "faith in something."
It is not difficult to understand exactly what that "something" is the Jews must believe in order to be saved--"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God"(1Jn.5:1).
Jerry said,

"I just cannot understand why those who follow the teaching of Bob Enyart and Bob Hill continue to refuse to address the words of the Lord Jesus Christ to the Jews where it is plain that "faith" is all that is required for salvation."

It is plain Jerry? I love how you pick and choose what is "plain" and what is figurative.
John writes that "whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."
We all must have faith in something, and Gos decides how He wants man to show that faith.
Yes,but the Lord does not need to see outward demonstrations of our faith before He knows whether or not one has faith or not.

...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart"(1Sam.16:7).

The Jews who lived under the law were not saved by "faith" plus the "obedience of faith" (works).Instead,they were saved by "faith" alone.Here are Paul's words in regard to David,who lived under the law:

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered"(Ro.4:5-7).
Jerry, Freak, Zak and geoff will all be hard pressed to find one instance where the Jews walking the earth with Christ ever "had faith in" His death, burial and resurrection for salvation.
As I have already demonstrated,the Jews who received the Lord Jesus were "born of God" when they believed that Jesus is the promised Messiah.
Let's take a look at the 8th chapter of John (which Freak actually quoted from above). Jerry begins with,

"Here is the Lord Jesus telling the Jews that whoever "believes" has eternal life and is passed from death unto life."

Uh oh Jerry, looks like you got us... Let's reason together from John 8.
Here you do not even explain what the Lord Jesus is saying.Instead you run off to another place in the Scriptures to attempt to prove that what the Lord Jesus said is not true.

TYPICAL!!
What does Jesus tell "those who believed in Him?" They needed to abide in His word. Wait! I thought "faith alone" was enough! What the heck is Jesus talking about Jerry
There were some who "believed in Him" but they were not yet born again.That is why the Scriptures speak of believing with one's "heart" and understanding with one's "heart".Here is an example of men who "believed in His Name" but who were not yet born again:

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men"(Jn.2:23,24).

And it is no coincidence that the chapter that immediately follows is in regard to being "born again".

These men needed to "abide" in His word until they were indeed born of God.They had a "mental" knowledge of Who the Lord was but it was not yet rooted in their hearts.
The Jews who just believed in Him are now offended. They claim they do not need to be set free from anything.
Again,the truth was not yet rooted in their hearts so they were not yet "born of God".
Wait a second Lord! Jerry and Freak say that "faith" is enough!
Wait a second Lord!Jerry and Freak did say that "faith" is enough,but so did the Lord Jeus.Here are His words at another place:

"It is the Spirit that giveth life...the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Wait a second Lord.Jeremy is saying that His words do not give life,but instead he teaches that it takes His Word plus "works"!.But Peter says that in order to be "born again" one must believe the "gospel":

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.... But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you"(1Pet.1:23,25).

Jeremy thinks that the Jews who lived at the time the Lord walked the earth had to have "faith" plus do "works" in order to be saved,despite the fact that Peter says that he was saved by "grace" just as the Gentiles:

"We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

And Paul had this to say about "grace" in regard to the Jewish believers:

" And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace"(Ro.11:6).

Despite the fact that Peter says that he was saved by "grace" Jeremy still says that he was saved by "faith" plus "works".
Why are you telling them that if they were of Abraham, they would do the works of Abraham?
Because those who believe in their hearts do attempt to be obedient to the faith.But here is what the Lord said to these Pharisees:

"..but ye seek to kill Me,because My word hath no place in you"(Jn.8:37).
These guys "believed" in Jesus in verse 30. Now, Christ tells them they are of their father the devil.
This argumernt of yours is so weak,but this is about what I expected.It never says that these men who the Lord said that their father is the devil ever believed.Instead,we read that "many believed on Him"(v.30).

Many believed but not "all".

In regard to those whose father is the devil He said that His word had no place in them (v.37).
He goes on to tell them that He is God (v 58). What do these believers do? They take up stones to kill Him (v 59).

Jerry / Freak, what gives?
What "gives" is your mistaken view that they ever believed in Him in the first place.You attempt to make an argument based on the false premise that they actually believed in Him despite the Lord's own words that His word had no place in them!

And that about sums up your arguments.You attempt to prove that the Lord Jesus never said that "faith" was sufficent for salvation,despite the fact that He said:

"He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

You attempt to use the Pharisees of an example of men who believed,even though the Lord Jesus Himself said that His word had no place in them!

In His grace,--Jerry

[Freak]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

Typical Freak...
Since you didn't answer, I'll ask again... Are you implying that the Jews in John 8 are "children of God" simply because they had faith in Christ? Only God knows the hearts of men. I don't but I do know what God has revealed as being true.

How about something with substance this time Freak?

--Jeremy
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

...that belief/faith in Him was all that was needed to attain eternal life & status as a child of God?

Yes or no will do....

[1Way]

Acts9 12out - Thank you kindly, :o but with all due respect, that was one jammin post! :thum