PDA

View Full Version : Historical Change of the Seventh day Sabbath to Sunday


Ya'nar#1
February 20th, 2004, 01:11 PM
SABBATH CHANGE IN THE EARLY CENTURIES

Contrary to the beliefs of most Christians today, the change of the seventh day Sabbath to Sunday, the first day of the week, happened very gradually over several centuries. The official change was made by Pope Sylvester in the 4th century. This evidence will be shown later in this article. But it will be demonstrated here that this change did not occur until AFTER the apostles had died, beginning around the year 155 A.D., with the yearly change of the celebration of the resurrection, from the sixteenth day of Nisan (Jewish reckoning for Firstfruits, a type of resurrection celebration), to a fixed date each year which fell on a Sunday.

HISTORICAL EVIDENCE
(As quoted from the Appendix of “Dateline Sunday” by Warren L. Johns)

“Although Sunday laws [called “blue laws”] blossomed into their intolerant maturity during the American colonial times, they date from a much earlier period. Over sixteen centuries ago, in A.D. 321, a political opportunist named Constantine proclaimed certain constraints on Sunday activity.

. . . Emperor Constantine “did not formerly renounce heathenism, and did not receive baptism until, in 337, he was laid upon the bed of death.” Milman describes Constantine as “outwardly, and even zealously pagan” up to 313 and subsequent to 326 as one whose mind “appears to have relapsed in some degree to its imperfectly unpaganized Christianity. His conduct became ambiguous as before, floating between decided bias in favour of Christianity, and an apparent design to harmonise with it some of the less offensive parts of Heathensim.”

Even “his coins bore on the one side the letters of the name of Christ; on the other the figures of the Sun-god, and the inscription, “Sol Invictus,” as he could not bear to relinquish the patronage of the bright luminary which represented to him, as to Augustus and to Julian, his own guardian deity.”

THE BACKGROUND

. . . Political turbulence and unrest greeted Constantine when he ascended the throne. The throne itself was shaky enough, and barbarian hordes threatened invasion. The iron monarchy slowly rusted though until his death in A.D. 337 the emperor attempted every way possible to restore stability and strength.

Paganism predominated. Not more than “a twentieth part of the subjects of the empire had enlisted themselves under the banner of the Cross before the important conversion of Constantine.” Nonetheless, Christians were a vocal and influential minority which held a certain appeal for Constantine. A union of church and state existed, in which religion played a subordinate, departmental role. Constantine directly concerned himself with religious affairs, only as a lesser segment of his political sphere. However, he was “the first representative of the imposing idea of a Christian theocracy, or of that system of policy which assumes all subjects to be Christians, connects civil and religious rights, and regards church and state as the two arms of one and the same divine government on earth . . . Christianity appeared to him, as it proved in fact, the only efficient power for the political reformation of the empire, from which the ancient spirit of Rome was fast departing.”

Constantine’s political motives were showing when he strove “not so much for the cause of God, as for the gratification of his own ambition and love of power.”

The "VENERABLE DAY OF THE SUN"

In a quest for additional devises of unity, Constantine noted the significance attached to the first day of the week by Christian and pagan alike. Many Christians had for a long time attached the “Lord’s Day” label to the first day of the week and marked it for a weekly festival in celebration of Christ’s resurrection. The Mithraists worshiped the sun as a deity, so the day of the sun was sacred to them also. Constantine found it politically expedient, therefore, to please these two diverse segments of his realm by honoring the “venerable day of the sun” through governmental edict in which “he expresses himself, perhaps with reference at once to the sun-god, Apollo, and of Christ, the true Sun of righteousness; to his pagan and his Christian subjects.”

“The retention of the old pagan name of “Dies Solis,” or “Sunday,” for the weekly Christian festival, is, in a great measure, owing to the union of Pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects, Pagan and Christian alike, as the “venerable day of the Sun.” His celebrated decree has been justly called “a new era in the history of the Lord’s Day.” It was his mode of harmonizing the Christian and Pagan elements of the Empire under one common institution.”

At a time when forces were already at work which would tear the empire into shreds, the first Sunday law did provide a common denominator of unity. The law, promulgated on March 7, A.D. 321, ordered:

“Let all judges and all city people and all tradesmen rest on the venerable day of the sun, but let those dwelling in the country freely and with full liberty attend to the culture of their fields, since it frequently happens that no other day is so fit for the sowing of grain or the planting of vines, hence the favorable time should not be allowed to pass, lest provisions of heaven be lost.”

Although the law carried religious overtones, it could hardly be called “Christian.” The edict did not invoke the “Lord’s Day.” The day after the Sunday proclamation, Constantine revealed his pagan inclinations in a decree calling for consultation with “soothsayers” when “the palace or other public works shall be struck by lightning.”

The Sunday law exempted the rural Roman. It carried no criminal penalties on its face. But, mild as it seemed, it set a precedent for a succession of political and theological conflicts which were to mark sixteen subsequent centuries. Constantine himself found five more occasions, ranging from a law concerning the emancipation of slaves on Sunday to provision for the celebration of Easter, to enhance the legal status of the day.

THE COUNCIL OF NICAEA

Christian church leaders assembled for the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 at the call of Constantine. The “venerable day of the sun” edict issued four years previously had not solved the doctrinal battle between churches of the East and the West with regard to Sunday and Easter observance.

. . . The attention of the church now focused on a battle from within—the necessity for interpretation and formulation of church dogma. Of concern to all was the establishment of a proper memorial to mark the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Churches in the West favored the observance of Sunday as the day of resurrection. Churches of the East emphasized the significance of the crucifixion on the fourteenth day of the Jewish month Nisan, irrespective of the day of the week.

What were the backgrounds for the disputations at Nicaea?

Some church historians claim that early in the second century Sixtus, bishop of Rome, had called for observance of the resurrection on Sunday. Another tradition claims that while Pius I was bishop of Rome, his brother Hermes went so far as to claim that an angel had instructed the church to commemorate yearly the resurrection on the first day [Sunday].

EAST versus WEST

Christians in the East and in the West differed on the matter. When Anicetus was bishop, Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, paid him a visit in Rome. This encounter, described by Irenaeus, Bishop of Lyons, took place in an atmosphere of calm and respect:

“When the blessed Polycarp went to Rome, in the time of Anicetus, and they had a little difference among themselves likewise respecting other matters, they immediately were reconciled, not disputing much with one another on this head. For neither could Anicetus persuade Polycarp not to observe it [the 16th day of Nisan as the memorial of Christ’s resurrection], because he had always observed it with John the disciple of our Lord, and the rest of the apostles, with whom he associated; and neither did Polycarp persuade Anicetus to observe [Sunday, the first day of the week each year], who said that he was bound to maintain the practice of the presbyters before him.”

In a letter to the emperor, written about A.D. 155, Justin Martyr supported the views of Anicetus. What had started as merely an ANNUAL observance and continued as such until the time of Sixtus, had eventually become a WEEKLY “assemblage” for the reading of “the memoirs of the apostles, or the writings of the prophets.” Then a leader gave admonition and “exhorts to the imitation of these good things.” Justin referred to prayers offered and voluntary offerings collected for orphans and widows. He continued:

“Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day in which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you for your consideration.”

[READER PLEASE TAKE NOTE: Nowhere does Justin Martyr cite either Biblical evidence or apostolic authority for the change of the celebration of the resurrection of Christ, from the 16th day of Nisan, Jewish reckoning, to Sunday each week. In fact, the historical record testifies clearly that Polycarp “always observed it [16th day of Nisan, which is the day the Lord commanded the Jews to celebrate the "sheaf of the Firstfruits"--two days after Passover, the 14th day of Nisan] with John the disciple of our Lord, and the rest of the apostles, with whom he associated”. So here we have evidence that the apostles DID NOT SANCTION the change in the celebration of the resurrection, which, as we will show, eventually gave rise to the celebration of Sunday each week in place of God’s holy Sabbath.]

The above information was taken from, “The First Apology of Justin,” Chapter 67. In Ante-Nicene Fathers, American Edition, Vol. 1, pp. 185, 186. (New York: Charles Scribner’s Sons, 1899)

But the amiable spirit that pervaded the meeting of Anicetus and Polycarp faded. Late in the second century, Victor, bishop of the church in Rome, sought to cut off from the common unity the parishes of all Asia for their failure to agree on observing the resurrection on Sunday.

Polycrates, bishop of Ephesus and a chief object of Victor’s pronouncement, defended his position by citing the example of Philip and John (two of the twelve apostles), Polycarp, “who was a bishop and martyr,” Traseas (also a “bishop and a martyr”) from Eumenia, Sagaris of Laodicea, Papirius, and Melito—all of whom “observed the fourteenth day of the passover according to the gospel, deviating in no respect, but following the rule of faith. Moreover, I, Polycrates, who am the least of you all, [do] according to the tradition of my relatives, some of whom I have closely followed . . .

Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons, embraced the theology of the West and maintained that the “mystery of the resurrection of our Lord” should be observed “only on the day of the Lord.” But, “in the name of those brethren in Gaul over whom he presided,” he admonished Victor “not to cut off whole churches of God, who observed the tradition of an ancient custom.”

CHURCH FOUNDATION SHAKEN

. . . While the Easter observance controversy was at its height, the church organization structure was embryonic at best. There was not as yet a firmly codified New Testament Scripture to use as a test for doctrine. Thus the Church was susceptible to the dynamic influence of the Roman church leadership.

Where Sixtus, Anicetus, Pius, and Victor had favored the Sunday resurrection festival during the second century, Sylvester, who had the ear of Constantine, helped bring victory to the Western theologians. Sylvester urged the changing of the calendar names for the days of the week, so that the seventh day be called “Sabbath,” and the first day, the “Lord’s Day.” As early as the third century the church had referred to Sunday as the “Lord’s Day,” to be observed concurrently with the Sabbath, since “we have said that the Sabbath is on account of the creation, and the Lord’s day of the resurrection.”

VICTORY FOR THE WEST

The subsequent involvement of Constantine opened the door to final victory for the Western point of view. In 314 the Council of Arles ruled that all Christians must keep the same day for Easter. Eleven years later the Council of Nicaea fixed Sunday as that day. Thus Sunday resurrection observance came into its own as an integral component of Christian church doctrine, while the celebration of the crucifixion on the 14th day of Nisan went into eclipse. This left the church with two significant weekly worship events: the “Sabbath” memorial of creation, on the seventh day; and the “Lord’s Day” resurrection observance on the first day.

However, already certain aspects of traditional Sabbath-observance were under attack. The focus of theological conflict now shifted to the elevation of one observance and the concurrent decline of the other. Just as the arm of the state had reached into the Easter controversy, government continued to strengthen the dominant position of Sunday observance long after Constantine’s historic proclamation of A.D. 321.

Actually, Constantine relaxed some aspects of his law in July of that same year, 321:

“As it seemed unworthy of the day of the sun, honored for its own sacredness, to be used in litigations and baneful disputes of parties, so it is grateful and pleasant on that day for sacred vows to be fulfilled. And, therefore let all have the liberty on the festive day of emancipating and manumitting slaves, and besides these things let not public acts be forbidden.”

SUNDAY OBSERVANCE STRENGTHENED

But in the century that followed, a succession of decrees was issued which commanded soldiers to worship on Sunday; freed Christians from tax collection on Sunday; forbade circus spectacles, horse races, and theatrical shows; and prohibited Sunday lawsuits.

Although some Christians had called Sunday the “Lord’s Day” possibly as early as the second century, the terminology did not appear in Roman law until late in the fourth century, when it was connected to Sunday observance in a decree of the three co-emperors Gratanus, Valentinianus, and Theodosius:

“On the day of the sun, properly called the Lord’s day by our ancestors, let there be a cessation of lawsuits, business, and indictments; let no one exact a debt due either the state or an individual; let there be no cognizance of disputes, not even by arbitrators, whether appointed by the courts or voluntarily chosen. And let him not only be adjudged notorious, but also impious who shall turn aside from an institute and rite of holy religion.”

Earlier, in 380, Theodosius had established Christianity as the official religion of the empire; now the union of church and state was absolute. Emperors were free to punish religious heretics, for under a monolithic church-state power, theological dissent could also be interpreted as a criminal act against the state.

In A.D. 538 the Third Council of Orleans forbade rural work such as “plowing, cultivating vines, reaping, mowing, threshing, etc.” and promised punishment to violators “as the ecclesiastical powers may determine.” The Second Council of Macon in A.D. 585 threatened advocates with the loss of their “privilege of pleading the cause” if done on the “Lord’s Day,” and the countryman was to be “soundly beaten with whips” if he placed a “yoke on the neck of his cattle” on the Lord’s Day. The A.D. 813 Council of Mayence under Charlemagne decreed that “Lord’s Days shall be observed with all due veneration, and that all servile work shall be abstained from, and that buying and selling may be less likely to happen.”

STATE SPONSORED RELIGION PRECEDES DECLINE

Increased public clamor for a state-sponsored religion accompanies a decline in social morality. The anemic spiritual condition of a nation’s religious experience is tacitly admitted where the church looks to government to codify religious practice.

The decline and fall of the Roman Empire and the subsequent headlong plunge of civilized social order into an age of stagnation is mute testimony that a monolithic church-state government failed to saved either the purity of the church or the political power of the state.

In succeeding centuries the pattern continued. Whenever the Christian church united with the secular government, Sunday laws blossomed as the tangible symbol of this alliance. The dissenter felt the sting of intolerance as new penalties were added. There was no alternative to “ultimate truth.” “Error” had to be eliminated, by persecution if necessary. The independent church functioning freely within the independent state did not exist.

HOW HAVE WE COME TO THE SUNDAY-SABBATH?

In order to complete our understanding of just how it is we have come to these modern times with our Christian eyes virtually “blind” to the truth of how we can regard Sunday as the Sabbath, we must first go back to the year A.D. 1054:

The road from Rome to Constantinople seemed long and treacherous to Cardinal Humbert, bishop of Candida Silva. Threatening clouds of doctrinal dissension hung low over the cardinal and his two companions, Frederick, deacon at Rome, and Peter, bishop of Amalfi, as they began their journey. These churchmen carried with them a stern directive from Leo IX, bishop of Rome, to Michael Cerularius, patriarch of Constantinople. Leo demanded that the Greek Church give immediate recognition and obedience to the authoritative declarations of the pope.

A letter from Michael Cerularius, written to Leo the previous year, had inspired this firm action. Cerularius had challenged doctrinal interpretations fostered by Roman church leaders. Specifically, he argued with the Roman custom of fasting on the seventh-day Sabbath. This was more than a simple disagreement in interpretation of disputed doctrine. Traditional strongholds of church authority were suffering a frontal attack, and no one realized the gravity of the battle better than Pope Leo.

Cerularius and his Eastern followers argued thus: Since the councils of the church had attacked the custom of fasting on the Sabbath, and since there was no mandate for the custom either from apostolic practice or from the Bible, the whim of a Roman bishop was insufficient justification for such a radical departure from established belief. He later declared, “We are commanded also to honor the Sabbath equally with the Lord’s [Day], and keep and not to work on it.”

The Western Church rejected both the challenge to its leadership and the doctrinal thesis upon which it was based. Humbert’s Roman advocate accused the Greeks of following the example of the Hebrews:

“[They keep] holiday on the [7th day] Sabbath by neither plowing nor reaping, and by reason of custom do not work, but they hold a festivity and a dinner and their menservants, maidservants, cattle, and beasts of burden rest . . . They certainly observe the Sabbath, and you observe, they dine, and always break the fast, on the Sabbath . . . They have a twofold reason for observing the Sabbath, obviously (1) by reason of the precept of Moses, and (2) because the disciples were saddened and heavy on this day on account of the death of the Lord, whom they did not believe to be about to be resurrected. Wherefore, because you observe the Sabbath with the Jews, and with us the Lord’s day, you appear by such observance to imitate the sect of the Nazarenes, who in this manner accept Christianity that they might not give up Judaism.”

Humbert strongly denounced the Eastern attitude, and as positively justified Western practice. He cited the “compassionate regard for the Lord in suffering and death” by the Latin Church’s rejoicing in the “resurrection on the Lord’s Day, when concern much troubled the Jews as they were seeking to corrupt the guards of the sepulcher by means of money. Wherefore we, holding unto the present time the apostolic tradition concerning the Sabbath, and desiring to hold unto the end, are careful to subscribe to that which our ancient and venerable fathers declared and confirmed.”

[B][Now remember, reader, that when Catholics use the term “apostolic tradition” they are referring to their belief in “apostolic succession” –which is NOT talking about the behavior of Christ’s apostles, but the beliefs and practices of the papal see, who followed long AFTER the apostles. It is due to this doctrine of the “apostolic succession” that Catholics believe the pope has the right to change or alter what God has deemed “inspiration” in the Bible. It is through this power that the Catholic Church changed the holy seventh day Sabbath to Sunday.]

At this juncture in the treatise, Humbert pointed to the leadership of Sylvester, bishop of Rome and contemporary of Constantine. He cited Sylvester as having declared:

“In every Lord’s Day on account of the resurrection is to be kept in joy of Christians, then every Sabbath day of the burial is to be estimated in execration of the Jews. For all the disciples of the Lord had a lamentation on the Sabbath, bewailing the buried Lord, and gladness for the exulting Jews. But for the fasting apostles sadness reigned. Let us, therefore, be sad with the saddened on account of the burial of the Lord, if we would rejoice with them on account of the resurrection of the Lord. For it is not proper that we should observe an account of Jewish custom, the subversions of the foods and ceremonies of the Jews.”

[Question: Is it any wonder God’s holy Sabbath has come to be looked upon by Christian’s as a despicable day to be shunned? Ask Christians today about the Ten Commandments, and they will generally tell you that all are to be observed –except one. “The Sabbath is no longer in force, for it belonged to the Jews,” they will say, mimicking the very words spoken by those whose greatest desire was to obliterate the day God sanctified. And like the Jewish leaders in Christ's day, they burdened God's holy day down with fasting, while at the same time celebrating the 1st day of the week.]

The issue between East and West was not primarily theological. Rather, it had become a conflict over the authority exercised by the bishop of Rome. It was here that the churches of the East refused to yield.

Cerularius resented the pope’s demands that his decrees be recognized as THE AUTHORITY of the church. A public debate on June 24, 1054, between Humbert and Nicetas only widened the breach. Finally, on the morning of July 16, the papal legates in Constantinople publicly attacked the position of Cerularius at the church of St. Sophia and presented to the church the pope’s written excommunication of the churches of the East. Local church leaders retaliated by publicly destroying the papal pronouncement.

Before Humbert completed his return journey to Rome, he received a communiqué from the emperor urging him to make one more attempt at church unity. But the damage had been done. Subsequent attempts at reconciliation failed, and more than nine centuries of separation between Christians of East and West followed. Seventh-day Sabbath observance went into virtual eclipse, as the majority of Christians believed Sunday had been sanctioned as the essential day for Christian worship. Ultimately Christian thought went the full circle and attached the “Sabbath” title to Sunday, the first day of the week.

Exactly Which Pope Made The Change
From Sabbath To Sunday Rest?

The following information amply demonstrates that a pope did indeed declare a change from Saturday Sabbath rest to the keeping of Sunday as the weekly day of rest:
Pope Sylvester I (314-335 A.D.)

Decrees the Transfer of Sabbath Rest to Sunday:

Rabanus Maurus (776-856), abbot of Fulda and later archbishop of Mainz, Germany, was rated one of the greatest theologians of his age and probably the most cultured man of his time, and exceptionally learned in patristics. Besides, he was a zealous defender of the papacy and its teachings. In one of his works, he says,

Pope Sylvester instructed the clergy to keep the feriae. And, indeed, from an old custom he called the first day [of the week] the "Lord's [day]," on which the light was made in the beginning and also the resurrection of Christ is celebrated.6
Rabanus Maurus does not mean to say that Sylvester was the first man who referred to the days of the week as feriae or who first started the observance of Sunday among Christians. He means that, according to the testimony of Roman Catholic writers, Sylvester confirmed those practices and made them official insofar as his church was concerned. Hence Rabanus says elsewhere in his writings:

Pope Sylvester first among the Romans ordered that the names of the days [of the week], which they previously called after the name of their gods, that is, [the day] of the Sun, [the day] of the Moon, [the day] of Mars, [the day] of Mercury, [the day] of Jupiter, [the day] of Venus, [the day] of Saturn, they should call feriae thereafter, that is the first feria, the second feria, the third feria, the fourth feria, the fifth feria, the sixth feria, because that in the beginning of Genesis it is written that God said concerning each day: on the first, "Let there be light:; on the second, "Let there be a firmament"; on the third, "Let the earth bring forth verdure"; etc. But he [Sylvester] ordered [them] to call the Sabbath by the ancient term of the law, [to call] the first feria the "Lord's day," because on it the Lord rose [from the dead], Moreover, the same pope decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord's day [Sunday], in order that on that day we should rest from worldly works for the praise of God.7

Note particularly, he says that "the same pope [Sylvester I] decreed that the rest of the Sabbath should be transferred rather to the Lord's day [Sunday]."8 According to this statement, he was the first bishop to introduce the idea that the divinely appointed rest of the Sabbath day should be transferred to the first day of the week. This is significant, especially in view of the fact that it was during Sylvester's pontificate that the emperor of Rome [Constantine] issued the first civil laws compelling men to rest from secular labor on Sunday, and that Eusebius, bishop of Caesarea, was the first theologian on record to present arguments, allegedly from the Scriptures, that Christ did transfer the rest of the Sabbath day to Sunday.

6 Rabanus Maurus, Liber de Computo (A book Concerning Computation), Chap. XXVII ("Concerning Festivals"), as translated by the writer from the Latin text in Migne's Patrologia Latina, Vol. CVII, col. 682.
7 ------------, De Clericorum Institutione (Concerning the Instruction of the Clergymen), Book II, Chap. XLVI, as translated by the writer from the Latin text in Migne's Patrologia Latina, Vol. CVII, col. 361.

8 The wording in the Latin text reads: "Statuit autem idem papa ut otium Sabbati magis in diem Dominicam transferretur, ut ea die a terrenis operibus ad laudandum Deum vacaremus."

Source: Sabbath and Sunday in Early Christianity, by Robert L. Odom, © 1977 by the Review and Herald Publishing Association (An Adventist publishing house), pages 247-248.

1765. Week, Names of Days, Decreed Changed by Pope Sylvester (314–335) From Name of Gods
Source: Rabanus Maurus, De Clericorum Institutione (On the Institution of the Clergy), bk. 2, chap. 46, in MPL, Vol. 107, col. 361. Trans. from the Latin by Frank H. Yost. Used by permission of Mrs. Frank H. Yost.

Sylvester the pope first among the Romans ordered that the names of the days, which before they called according to the names of their own gods, that is (the day) of the sun, of the moon, of Mars, of Mercury, of Venus, of Saturn, they should call feria (day of celebration), that is, first feria, second feria, third feria, fourth feria, fifth feria, sixth feria, because in the beginning of Genesis it is written that God had said for each day: first, "Let there be light"; second, "Let there be the firmament"; third, "Let the earth produce living plants", etc. But the Sabbath he commanded they call by the ancient name of the law, and the first feria the Lord’s day, because the Lord rose on that day. Moreover the same pope ordered that the rest (otium) of the Sabbath would better be transferred to the Lord’s day, so that we should leave that day free of worldly works in order to praise God.

Source: Bible Student's Source Book (Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Volume 9), edited by Don F. Neufeld and Julia Neuffer, published and © 1962 by the Review and Herald Publishing Association (An Adventist publishing house), Library of Congress Catalogue Card Number 62-9139, entry #1765, page 1078.

Now the above quotes are, as noted, from Migne's Patrologia Latina (MPL), a well known scholarly compilation of the writings of Latin Fathers, a work of 221 volumes, which can be searched online to confirm the Latin sentence quoted in footnote 8 above, in which Rabanus Maurus attributes the change to Sunday rest to Pope Sylvester I. Patrologia Latina was first published from 1844 to 1855.So while some Roman Catholics were suggesting on the internet that Adventists simply could not prove that a Pope made a change to Sunday, other Roman Catholics were openly proclaiming that Pope Sylvester I had done the deed!

It should also be noted that Pope Sylvester did not invent Sunday worship, and neither did Emperor Constantine, and Adventists do not make that claim. But, it is evident to everyone that a change did happen to keeping Sunday instead of the Saturday Sabbath. Adventists have been well aware that celebrating the resurrection on Sundays predates the 4th century, though there is no biblical proof that the Apostles ever sanctioned a change of the Sabbath to Sunday or practiced it themselves.” -- Michael Schiefler (www.biblelight.com)


May God Bless!

--Ya'nar :Princess:

Jerry Shugart
February 20th, 2004, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by Ya'nar#1
Contrary to the beliefs of most Christians today, the change of the seventh day Sabbath to Sunday, the first day of the week, happened very gradually over several centuries. The official change was made by Pope Sylvester in the 4th century. This evidence will be shown later in this article. But it will be demonstrated here that this change did not occur until AFTER the apostles had died, beginning around the year 155 A.D., with the yearly change of the celebration of the resurrection, from the fourteenth day of Nisan (Jewish reckoning for Passover), to a fixed date each year which fell on a Sunday
Ya'nar#1,

I do not think that even the Apostles celebrated the "resurrection" of the Lord on the fourteenth day of Nisan,and that is because the Lord was not raised from the dead on that day.

The OT ordinances were "types" of the spiritual truths that have now been revealed in the NT.And by the "types" associated with the feast of unleavened bread that followed immediately after the passover seder we see that the "sheaf of the firstfruits" was to be waved the day after the sabbath (seventh day):

"then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the next day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it"(Lev.23:10,11).

The Lord is referred to as the "Firstfruits":

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the Firstfruits of them that slept"(1Cor.15:20).

In His grace,--Jerry

okinrus
February 20th, 2004, 04:13 PM
No, Christians would always gather on Sunday, and have been doing so after the resurrection. Christians did not move the day of the sabbath, but Church assigns sunday to worship and sets aside one day for mass. Rather, since the Law has been fullfilled, so too has the sabath, and thus the sabath is eternal. One who has eternal life obeys the sabath perfectly each day, since their rest is in Christ.

Therefore, when the Jewish Typhro says this

But this is what we are most at a loss about: that you, professing to be pious, and supposing yourselves better than others, are not in any particular separated from them, and do not alter your mode of living from the nations, in that you observe no festivals or sabbaths, and do not have the rite of circumcision; and further, resting your hopes on a man that was crucified, you yet expect to obtain some good thing from God, while you do not obey His commandments.

he is speaking of the early Christians around 150AD

But if we do truly rest our hopes on Christ we obey the Sabath, because he is the Lord of the Sabath.


The Lawgiver is present, yet you do not see Him; to the poor the Gospel is preached, the blind see, yet you do not understand. You have now need of a second circumcision, though you glory greatly in the flesh. The new law requires you to keep perpetual sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious, not discerning why this has been commanded you: and if you eat unleavened bread, you say the will of God has been fulfilled. The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances: if there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so; if any adulterer, let him repent; then he has kept the sweet and true sabbaths of God. If any one has impure hands, let him wash and be pure.


http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

Ya'nar#1
February 22nd, 2004, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Ya'nar#1,

I do not think that even the Apostles celebrated the "resurrection" of the Lord on the fourteenth day of Nisan,and that is because the Lord was not raised from the dead on that day.

The OT ordinances were "types" of the spiritual truths that have now been revealed in the NT.And by the "types" associated with the feast of unleavened bread that followed immediately after the passover seder we see that the "sheaf of the firstfruits" was to be waved the day after the sabbath (seventh day):

"then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the next day after the sabbath the priest shall wave it"(Lev.23:10,11).

The Lord is referred to as the "Firstfruits":

"But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the Firstfruits of them that slept"(1Cor.15:20).

In His grace,--Jerry


You're right! :thumb:

I misspoke concerning this point, and will go back and correct my statement--sorry! The following is more information concerning the dates of Passover and the Firstfruits, from www.biblelight.com:

"Note . . . that Passover (14 Nisan), known today to the Jews as Erev Pesach, does not fall on a set day of the week. Again this is due to the setting of the 1st day of the Month by the New Moon. Passover was a type, or shadow, of the Crucifixion, and is always 14 Nisan:

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.

Now the next day, 15 Nisan, is always the 1st day of Unleaven Bread, a ceremonial sabbath day:

Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

Next is the day of firstfruits:

Lev 23:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Lev 23:11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.

Now H. M. Riggle and J. Mark Martin interpret "morrow after the sabbath" to always mean Sunday. However, in the text of Leviticus, the sabbath day intended is 15 Nisan, the subject of verses 6-8, and not the seventh-day sabbath, as this study will show. But first let's presume that H. M. Riggle and J. Mark Martin are correct, and show the results. I have noted that 14 Nisan can occur on any day of the week, based on the observance of the New Moon." Michael Schliffer, www.biblelight.com

May God Bless!

--Ya'nar

billwald
February 22nd, 2004, 07:03 PM
Christians worship on the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath.

Ya'nar#1
February 23rd, 2004, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by billwald

Christians worship on the Lord's Day, not the Sabbath.


Jesus said in Matt 12:8, Mark 2:28 and Lk 6:5, "For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day."

Doesn't this very testimony by Christ make the sabbath the "Lord's Day?" --and not Sunday, the first day of the week, that no one had been commanded by Jesus to recognize as the new sabbath?

When John delared, "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day . . ." (Rev. 1:10) he wasn't referring to Sunday, the first day of the week, but the seventh day Sabbath. How do I know this? By the above article I posted on the change of the day!

And let's face it, if Jesus had wanted or desired the change of the sabbath to the first day of the week, He could have done so very easily. He could have even done so through His apostles, after His death. But so far as anyone can ascertain, all the apostles continued to keep the seventh-day Sabbath throughout their lives. And we even have much testimony of how Paul raised up sabbath-keeping churches throughout the region, and kept the sabbath himself.

These false rumors that the apostles kept Sunday in place of God's holy Sabbath have been invented by Christians to support and defend their keeping a false day OUT OF TRADITION, because their parents, and their parents parents and so on . . . was raised to believe this is the true Sabbath.

But if you read my article, which I doubt you did, you will see how the early church, after the death of the apostles, replaced the holy Sabbath with Sunday.

Blessings!

--Ya'nar

:Princess:

Ya'nar#1
February 24th, 2004, 01:30 PM
The historical account of these early days does NOT bear out your statement below:


Originally posted by okinrus

No, Christians would always gather on Sunday, and have been doing so after the resurrection. Christians did not move the day of the sabbath, but Church assigns sunday to worship and sets aside one day for mass. Rather, since the Law has been fullfilled, so too has the sabath, and thus the sabath is eternal. One who has eternal life obeys the sabath perfectly each day, since their rest is in Christ.[/b]


The rest you are describing is the rest ALL Christians receive from obeying the Law of God as a means of SALVATION. This particular rest DOES NOT INCLUDE a complete dismissal of the law from the Christian's life! --hence the words of James,

JAMES 2
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of breaking them all.
11 For He that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if you commit not adultery, yet if you kill, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So you should speak, and so you should do, as those that shall be judged BY THE LAW OF LIBERTY.
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
19 You believe that there is one God; you do well: the devils also believe and tremble.

What James is saying here is that God will JUDGE us by the "law of liberty." The law of liberty IS the Ten Commandments!

This is why it is so essential that Christians understand that FAITH = OBEDIENCE. Because without obedience to God, He regards mankind as not doing His will. "Faith without works is dead, being alone."

Our "liberty" we have when Christ comes to reside WITHIN us after we have been "born from above." Our liberty we have BECAUSE we learn to become obedient to all of Christ's commandments; our good works, or obedience, is the FRUITAGE of a life of FAITH.

One of the greatest travesties the Catholic church committed, and one which was predicted in Daniel 7:25, was the changing of God's law (the seventh day Sabbath) to the 1st day of the week. This, and the elimination of the 2nd commandment forbidding the worship of idols made in the image of anything "in the heavens above, or the earth, of the waters . . ." Something the CC just recently amended and added back to the Decalogue, only severely altered, so that it is okay again to make idols in the form of Jesus, Mary, the saints, etc., etc.

This changing of the Law of God by the Catholic church is what constitutes the "whore" of Rev. 17, called Babylon.

Allegiance to God includes obedience. The Catholic church has changed so much about the way in which God desires mankind to worship Him, that they have come to represent the supreme agency in the world that works AGAINST His purposes.

Hence, Rev. 18:4 says that God will call His people OUT of Babylon. "Come out of her, My people, that you don't partake of her sins, and receive not of her plagues."

The fall of Babylon is a spiritual fall. We have seen the beginnings of this fall in recent years. Those who wish to be saved from her destruction will come out, into the light of God's word, and not be found "drunken" on her soceries and false doctrines, the "wine" of her fornication, or illicit traffic with the world.

Those Christians who obey God are called "virgins." (Rev. 14:4) They have not had commerce with the whore or her harlot daughters, those apostate churches that have led the world astray.

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that obey the commandments of God, and are faithful to Jesus." Rev. 14:12

These are those who will be redeemed from among men when Jesus comes again.

--Ya'nar

SteveT
February 24th, 2004, 05:41 PM
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

"Sunday was the first day of the week according to the Jewish method of reckoning, but for Christians it began to take the place of the Jewish Sabbath in Apostolic times as the day set apart for the public and solemn worship of God. The practice of meeting together on the first day of the week for the celebration of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is indicated in Acts, xx 7; I Cor., xvi, 2; in Apoc., i, 10, it is called the Lord's day. In the Didache (xiv) the injunction is given: "On the Lord's Day come together and break bread. And give thanks (offer the Eucharist), after confessing your sins that your sacrifice may be pure". St. Ignatius (Ep. ad Magnes. ix) speaks of Christians as "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also Our Life rose again". In the Epistle of Barnabas (xv) we read: "Wherefore, also, we keep the eight day (i. e. the first of the week) with joyfulness, the day also on which Jesus rose again from the dead".

St. Justin is the first Christian writer to call the day Sunday (I Apol., lxvii) in the celebrated passage in which he describes the worship offered by the early Christians on that day to God. The fact that they ment together and offered public worship on Sunday necessitated a certain rest from work on that day. However, Tertullian (202) is the first writer who expressly mentions the Sunday rest: "We, however (just as tradition has taught us), on the day of the Lord's Resurrection ought to guard not only against kneeling, but every posture and office of solicitude, deferring even our businesses lest we give any place to the devil" ("De orat.", xxiii; cf. "Ad nation.", I, xiii; "Apolog.", xvi).

These and similar indications show that during the first three centuries practice and tradition had consecrated the Sunday to the public worship of God by the hearing of the Mass and the resting from work."

To the best of my knowledge, there are no early references to Christians practicing a Saturday Sabbath. There was certainly a big debate between East and West as to when was the proper day to celebrate Easter, but there's no record of anybody arguing for Saturday as the right day for weekly worship.

okinrus
February 24th, 2004, 10:14 PM
I'm hesitant to note this, but the differentation of the Old Testament into the Ten Commandments was somewhat arbitrary and not just within the text.


The rest you are describing is the rest ALL Christians receive from obeying the Law of God as a means of SALVATION. This particular rest DOES NOT INCLUDE a complete dismissal of the law from the Christian's life! --hence the words of James,

The Law fullfilled by Christ should be kept. Not for the sake of the Law, but because we love him.

John 1:3
in whatever our hearts condemn, for God is greater than our hearts and knows everything.
21
Beloved, if (our) hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence in God
22 and receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
23
And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us.
24
Those who keep his commandments remain in him, and he in them, and the way we know that he remains in us is from the Spirit that he gave us.


2 So you should speak, and so you should do, as those that shall be judged BY THE LAW OF LIBERTY.

Christ said, "the truth shall set you free." If someone is within Christ, and finds rest within Christ, then they are under the law of freedom. They are no longer slaves to their sins, but have been freed by Christ.


This, and the elimination of the 2nd commandment forbidding the worship of idols made in the image of anything "in the heavens above, or the earth, of the waters . . ."

No, the Church did not eliminate this commandment.

The full quotation
Revelation 14:12
12
Here is what sustains the holy ones who keep God's commandments and their faith in Jesus. 9
13
I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," said the Spirit, "let them find rest from their labors, for their works accompany them."

Notice that the book of Matthew, presumably durring the Sabath, Jesus says in [b]Matthew 11[b]
28
15 "Come to me, all you who labor and are burdened, 16 and I will give you rest.
29
17 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble of heart; and you will find rest for your selves.
30
For my yoke is easy, and my burden light."

Matthew then goes into the next chapter and clarifies that Jesus said these words on the Sabath.

1 At that time Jesus was going through a field of grain on the sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick the heads 2 of grain and eat them.
2
When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "See, your disciples are doing what is unlawful to do on the sabbath."
He said to them, 3 "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry,
4
how he went into the house of God and ate the bread of offering, which neither he nor his companions but only the priests could lawfully eat?
5
4 Or have you not read in the law that on the sabbath the priests serving in the temple violate the sabbath and are innocent?
6
I say to you, something greater than the temple is here.

Now we certainly know that Christ's rest is far superior to the manual observance of the Sabath. Need I mention that someone who is within Christ is within the Temple?

Living4Him
February 25th, 2004, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by Ya'nar#1

What James is saying here is that God will JUDGE us by the "law of liberty." The law of liberty IS the Ten Commandments!

Ya'nar are these verse's speaking of the 10 Commandments?

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

If these verses are speaking of the 10 commandments then what do you believe these verses are saying?
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Rom 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to [her] husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of [her] husband.

Rom 7:3 So then if, while [her] husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, [even] to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.



Liberty:
1 : the quality or state of being free: a : the power to do as one pleases b : freedom from physical restraint c : freedom from arbitrary or despotic control d : the positive enjoyment of various social, political, or economic rights and privileges e : the power of choice

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:


This is why it is so essential that Christians understand that FAITH = OBEDIENCE. Because without obedience to God, He regards mankind as not doing His will. "Faith without works is dead, being alone."

Ya'nar do you know the difference between the works of faith and the works of the law? First lets defined faith:

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Examples of works of faith:

Mat 9:21 For she said within herself, If I may but touch his garment, I shall be whole.

Mat 9:22 But Jesus turned him about, and when he saw her, he said, Daughter, be of good comfort; thy faith hath made thee whole. And the woman was made whole from that hour

Rom 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

Rom 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara's womb:

Rom 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Rom 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

I believe I can safely say we know what the works of the law are.




Our "liberty" we have when Christ comes to reside WITHIN us after we have been "born from above." Our liberty we have BECAUSE we learn to become obedient to all of Christ's commandments; our good works, or obedience, is the FRUITAGE of a life of FAITH.

Do you know what the fruit of the Spirit is?

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Did you know that the works of the law is not of faith?

Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Now if we have righteousnesses by keeping the law, which is seen, then how is it faith?


Those Christians who obey God are called "virgins." (Rev. 14:4) They have not had commerce with the whore or her harlot daughters, those apostate churches that have led the world astray.

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that obey the commandments of God, and are faithful to Jesus." Rev. 14:12

These are those who will be redeemed from among men when Jesus comes again.

--Ya'nar

If God wills that I respond to the rest of your post I will. I have many things to say about the rest of your post but I will allow the Spirit to lead me on if I should even respond.

The Lord strenghten you in faith,

Christy

OO-tawn
February 25th, 2004, 04:56 PM
Christy,

The ten commandments are in their most basic level a description of morality.

Jesus clarified this in the Sermon on the Mount.

Jesus' saving grace is in harmony with morality as defined by God NOT human beings.

All agree that the first three and the last six are basically moral rules (can you believe that it is not immoral to be dishonest, hateful, unfaithful, covetousness, etc?)

Why not the Sabbath commandment?

Just a thought.

OO-tawn

SteveT
February 26th, 2004, 07:30 AM
Christy:

"works of the law" was a common 1st Century phrase in Palestine to describe the ritual laws - i.e., circumcision, animal sacrifices, etc.. If you approach Romans 2-5 trying to understand what the Judaizers whom Paul was refuting were teaching, it is crystal clear from Rom 2 that they did NOT teach morality and good works played a role in salvation. On the contrary, they believed you were saved by the ritual "works of the law" - most especially circumcision. Paul is adament that they are wrong, that those who keep the moral law are the ones who will be justified

"For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified." Rom 2:12-13

Paul goes on to say that man, in the flesh (that is, apart from grace) is incapable of keeping the moral law because he is a slave of sin. Now, the Judaizers fall back position was that, while circumcision might not save you, it did make you a Jew and hence freed you from that slavery to sin. We can see this train of thought - and Jesus' refutation of it - in John's gospel:

31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." 33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. (John 8)

Now every Jewish child knew that the descendents of Abraham had been in physical slavery in Egypt for 400 years before Moses came along. So it is obvious that the Jews weren't talking about physical slavery in v.33, but slavery to sin, and Jesus refutes them in v. 34. Paul makes the same point in Romans, pointing out that all the descendents of Adam are enslaved to sin, both Jews and Greeks.

After laying out this bad news, Paul goes to the good news: Jesus death on the cross provides propitiation - covers the cost for sins you have committed- and reconciliation or redemption - frees you from your slavery to sin. Jesus' resurrection and ascension provides you with grace - the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, by whose power alone you are able to keep the moral law, if you will but submit to it. We see this in what I believe is the central thematic statement of the entire epistle:

"For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Rom 5:10

That we have to submit to the Holy Spirit is clearly stated:

"Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?" Rom 6:16

4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God...
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. " Rom 8

In saying that, by submitting to the Spirit, the "just requirements of the law" are fulfilled in us, Paul is completing the proof of the statement he made much earlier in the epistle:

"Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law. " Rom 3:31

SteveT
February 27th, 2004, 09:15 PM
Ya'nar:

The moral law, as encapsulated in the 10 commandments and revealed to those "without the law" by reason, has indeed never been repealed and is still applicable. But the sabbath rest - setting aside a certain time regularly to refrain from work and worship God - can only be perceived by reason in a general sense; the setting aside of a particular day (Saturday or Sunday) cannot. Hence, the moral law doesn't require keeping a specific day as the Sabbath. The setting aside of the particular day, Saturday, is therefore a ritual law, not a moral law. This ritual law, like all the other ritual laws -circumcision, the animal sacrifices, kosher rules, etc., - are no longer applicable. That is why Paul lumps it together with these rules in Col 2

"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." Col 2:16-17

Ya'nar#1
March 11th, 2004, 06:03 PM
I was absolutely delighted by your thorough and well-informed post to Christy, until I read your comments below:

Originally posted by SteveT

Ya'nar:

The moral law, as encapsulated in the 10 commandments and revealed to those "without the law" by reason, has indeed never been repealed and is still applicable. But the sabbath rest - setting aside a certain time regularly to refrain from work and worship God - can only be perceived by reason in a general sense; the setting aside of a particular day (Saturday or Sunday) cannot. Hence, the moral law doesn't require keeping a specific day as the Sabbath. The setting aside of the particular day, Saturday, is therefore a ritual law, not a moral law. This ritual law, like all the other ritual laws -circumcision, the animal sacrifices, kosher rules, etc., - are no longer applicable. That is why Paul lumps it together with these rules in Col 2

"Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day - things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." Col 2:16-17


Have you actually never read my many posts explaining Col. 2:16, 17 over and over again to various people, or is it you just don't accept the Biblical truth on this point?

Once again:

There are two types of sabbaths spoken of in scripture:

1) The 7th day Sabbath of the 4th commandment, declaring one day a week to be sacred and set apart as a memorial to God's creative work.

2) Special feast day sabbaths, like Passover, the Day of Atonement, Feast of Trumpets, Feast of Weeks, Feast of Tabernacles, etc. These "sabbaths" were the type Paul was referring to in Col. 2:16, 17. How do we know this? Because in v. 17 speaking of "let no man judge you in meat, drink, or in respect of a holyday, or of the new moon, or the sabbath, "Which are a SHADOW OF THINGS TO COME; but the reality is of Christ."

These feast days were CEREMONIAL sabbaths. They were "shadows" of the coming Redeemer. They pointed the Hebrews forward to His coming life and work and death and resurrection. Paul wasn't talking about the sacred Sabbath! That would be absurd. The sacred Sabbath came around once every 7 days. The sacred Sabbath wasn't created to point forward to the coming Redeemer; it was created to honor the one and only God who created everything in the universe! The 7th day was first instituted in Eden--not on Mt. Sinai! If you want evidence of the law existing BEFORE Mt. Sinai, go to Gen. 26:5. There it tells you Abraham followed God's "commandments, statutes, and laws."

Now just where do you think Abraham received this information? Sure, he could have received it directly from God. But we don't have scriptural authority for such happening. It is far more likely Abraham received it from generations of Godly men and women who went before him, all the way back to Adam and Eve, who took their verbal understanding of God's will for their lives with them when they left Eden.

If you have any questions about this, please ask. I do appreciate your former post to Christy. You said it far better than I could have.

God Bless,

--Ya'nar :Princess:

SteveT
March 14th, 2004, 11:07 PM
Ya' Nar:

You miss the point. The moral law is codified in the decalog, but it is perceptable by natural reason as well - hence the phrase "natural law". That is what Paul is clearly talking about in Romans 2, when he talks about those without the law following the precepts of the law. That CANNOT include setting aside a specific day - Saturday - for the worship of God. That the "right" day to set aside is Saturday, or Sunday, or any other specific day, cannot be determined by reason alone. Hence, the identification of a specific day CANNOT be considered a component of the natural law - and therefore CANNOT be considered to be a part of the moral law. It is a ritual law, and rituals are not salvific. The moral law requires setting aside time regularly for the worship of God, be it Saturday, Sunday, or time every single day (as was the practice of the earliest church)

"[46] And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts,
[47] praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved." Acts 2

That is why, from the earliest times, the church has had daily worship services - every day is the Sabbath for the Christian, because in Christ we have entered into the Sabbath rest the Old Covenant rituals were unable to attain for us.

"[3] For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my wrath,
`They shall never enter my rest,'"
although his works were finished from the foundation of the world.
[4] For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way, "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works."
[5] And again in this place he said, "They shall never enter my rest."
[6] Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
[7] again he sets a certain day, "Today," saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, "Today, when you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts."
[8] For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not speak later of another day.
[9] So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God;
[10] for whoever enters God's rest also ceases from his labors as God did from his." Heb 4

By custom, from earliest times, the MINIMAL expectation was participation in the worship service at least once a week, usually on the first day of the week. We see Paul delivering an extremely long sermon on the first day of the week in Acts 20:7

"On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight."

We see Paul talking about the collection being taken up on the first day of the week as well:

"On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come." 1 Cor 16:2

But again, these are minimals, and who wants to be a minimal Christian?

OO-tawn
March 15th, 2004, 08:12 PM
Steve T,

Are you saying that the Moral Law is defined by us or by God?

I understand that reason has to play a part, by neccessity, to all kinds of understanding, but left to ourselves we can come up with some pretty bizzare notions.

The Bible is a neccessary tool to use, as you well know, to understanding Truth, and reason MUST be used.

However, saying that because something does not FEEL to you as though it is a moral principle and thus concluding that it cannot reasonably be so is the same as defining morality yourself instead of trusting that to God.

I believe that it is perfectly reasonable that a PARTICULAR day could be singled out by God as essential for us to observe as holy. Why? There are several reasons:

1. Memorial of Creation. God's work in bringing us all into being is His first and greatest work. Even if the Fall had never happened and Jesus had never had to become human to suffer and die and be Resurrected, even if He was not Son of man and Redeemer, He would still be Creator. This is the fact for all Creation: fallen and unfallen.

2. Solidarity. God has always sought to bring His children together, not seperate them. We all each have our own thoughts and feelings, our own personalities; but conforming our will to His means coming closer together as we come close to Him. We can not say that we will appraoch Him alone, or only with those who are most like us. I can understand why God would set aside a particular day for ALL to observe together to turn our thoughts and feelings to Him and a Body.

3. Culture. As we all have seen in our world, culture can either support Truth and Light, or take away from it. If we all were geared toward living in a society where everyone honored God together one day out of the week, think of how supportive of Truth and Light our culture would be. It would be very beneficial to those who did not understand Truth and Light. Of cource, all of this could only be beneficial on a voluntary scale (not like uniting Church and State) and as apart of the world (not like Amish). Right now, the only thing that is seen by many is that the world never sleeps (except possibly on Sunday). In truth, the type of culture I describe may only happen in Heaven, considering that we are all sojourners in this world.

There are other reasons, but these three always come to mind as perfectly reasonable. This point of Truth has always reminded me that our natures are naturally disposed to sin and that love comes from God.

Many blessings to you! :D

Your brother,

OO-tawn

Ya'nar#1
March 16th, 2004, 02:08 PM
:thumb:

SteveT
March 16th, 2004, 05:22 PM
OO

Paul writes,

"[12] All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
[13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
[14] When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
[15] They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
[16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. "

If a native American, then, before the arrival of Columbus (i.e., one who could not possibly have ever heard of the ten commandments), commits murder, I understand Paul to be saying that that Indian would be guilty of sin and subject to judgment. If that Indian commits adultery, he is guilty of sin and subject to judgment. But I do NOT believe Paul is saying that if that Indian perceives the existence of God and the rightness of worshipping him, that if he happens to set aside Wednesday as his day of worship he is guilty of sin and subject to punishment for picking the wrong day.

Human reason can discern that murder is wrong - that is why every civilization that has ever existed proscribes murder. Ditto adultery. Ditto bearing false witness. Ditto theft. Human reason can discern that there is only one God, and that he deserves to be worshipped (the Athenians condemned Socrates to death because he reached that conclusion through reason). The moral law CAN be discerned by reason - that is precisely Paul's point in this section of Romans 2. The setting aside of a particular day for worship CANNOT be discerned by reason. The setting aside of a particular day is therefore NOT a moral law, but a ritual law. Ritual laws are not salvific - no one has ever or will ever be saved by keeping ritual laws - that is Paul's central point in Romans 2-5.

"However, saying that because something does not FEEL to you as though it is a moral principle and thus concluding that it cannot reasonably be so is the same as defining morality yourself instead of trusting that to God."

How it feels to you has nothing to do with it; I never said it did.

The three "reasons" you provide could be applied to any of the ritual laws of the old covenant. For example, is observance of the passover ritual a moral law? consider:

1. It is a memorial of a great work done by God
2. "I can understand why God would set aside a particular day for ALL to observe together to turn our thoughts and feelings to Him and a Body."
3. Wouldn't it be a great testimony to the whole world if we all shut down one day a year to worship God?

Why do you think these arguments work for the Sabbath, but not the myriad other specific days set aside under the Old Covenant?

Ya'nar#1
March 17th, 2004, 01:00 PM
SteveT,

What you call 'reason' I call the influence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. Concerning the examples you gave re murder, adultery, etc., these are matters contained in the Ten Commandments, and the moral law deal with right vs. wrong, righteousness vs. evil. And this includes the Sabbath, which is part of the moral law.

It is part of the Holy Spirit's job in this world to convict the world of sin. Therefore, if a primitive people perceives it to be wrong to kill, are they not doing so because the Holy Spirit is guiding this perception?

Yes!

Paul says concerning this, "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to ALL men. It teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age . . ." Titus 2:11, 12

Indeed, would not a primitive person who never heard the name of Jesus, but who throughout their lives lived righteously according to the dictates of their "conscience," (which we think of as the Holy Spirit's influence) be saved and taken to heaven, because they "obeyed" the truth as they knew it to be? Because, in obeying the good, they would themselves be fitted for heaven and the company of heaven's holy beings, and thus could be trusted to live a sinless life there?

Try to see with your "spiritual eyes," Steve. Your Christian experience will increase by magnitudes!

God Bless!

--Ya'nar

SteveT
March 18th, 2004, 04:23 PM
Ya' nar:

I agree totally with everything you said. But you missed the point to the present discussion: if that "primitive person" picked the wrong day of the week to worship God, would that be a damnable moral sin, equivalent to murder, adultery, etc. ?

Ya'nar#1
March 18th, 2004, 08:24 PM
Originally posted by SteveT

Ya' nar:

I agree totally with everything you said. But you missed the point to the present discussion: if that "primitive person" picked the wrong day of the week to worship God, would that be a damnable moral sin, equivalent to murder, adultery, etc. ?


Steve,

I suppose that would depend on how much light was supplied by the Holy Spirit on this point. You know, scripture has something to say on our perception of what is sin, and our response to what we regard as right and wrong:

JAMES 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

If the "primitive person" is not moved one way or the other concerning the day, then he can't be held responsible for light that he did not have. But we must be careful, as Christian's who have access to God's word, that we don't carry this too far and apply this standards of "Well, I just didn't understand, so therefore I'm off the hook" to ourselves. Because God's truth is in His word. True, we need to feel the conviction of the Holy Spirit. But God's voice speaks to us so softly sometimes, that I have found in my own case, I have had to "press in" to understand certain points of truth.

Like the Sabbath, for example.

God isn't going to jump up and bang us on the head about this. We have to love Him enough to go in search of His truth. To desire to understand what our heart continues to question regarding His will. Many people think God should lasso them and tug them along by a rope before they will decide this is the right thing to do. But is that the method He uses concerning the other nine commandments? No! He wants our love first, and then our obedience follows as a "fruit" of the love we feel for Him. But obedience to God is essential if we are to receive the blessings He has for us through the Holy Spirit.

Anyway, that's my understanding. Hope this helps! And thanks for hanging in there with me until I understood you.

May God Bless!

--Ya'nar
:Princess: