Do wanna-be believers exist?

[Swordsman]

Matthew 7:21-23 says: Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Boy, I wanna do God's will every waking hour after fulling knowing this verse. I used to believe I was the good little Christian going to church, getting involved in the Body, and doing Bible study after Bible study.

I think my eyes are opening more and more everyday and I'm learning more as I seek Him out. Does anyone else pray "God, your will be done through my life," and not "God, help me get my agenda through to others today, so that they will believe as I do."? I used to be the latter. Now, I could care less if anyone agrees with my faith.

[Poly]

Originally posted by Swordsman


I think my eyes are opening more and more everyday and I'm learning more as I seek Him out. Does anyone else pray "God, your will be done through my life," and not "God, help me get my agenda through to others today, so that they will believe as I do."? I used to be the latter. Now, I could care less if anyone agrees with my faith.
What if your agenda is seeking out the lost? Wouldn't that be God's will in your life? To get the lost to believe as you do?

I'm not trying to be confusing, just looking at it from a different perspective.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Now, I could care less if anyone agrees with my faith.

Does that include Jesus?

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Sozo

Does that include Jesus?


Details, details. Yes, of course Jesus. But He is the one who created (and still creating) the faith in me.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Details, details. Yes, of course Jesus. But He is the one who created (and still creating) the faith in me.

You could "care less" if Jesus agrees with your faith? :confused:

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Sozo

You could "care less" if Jesus agrees with your faith? :confused:

Arghh! I did not say that. Please. Why do you insist on arguing with me? For you to even insinuate that I do not care about Jesus agreeing with me is aggravating. Where do you get your spirit of confrontation from?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Arghh! I did not say that. Please. Why do you insist on arguing with me? For you to even insinuate that I do not care about Jesus agreeing with me is aggravating. Where do you get your spirit of confrontation from?

Go back and read the posts.

[PureX]

Originally posted by Swordsman Boy, I wanna do God's will every waking hour after fulling knowing this verse. I used to believe I was the good little Christian going to church, getting involved in the Body, and doing Bible study after Bible study.

I think my eyes are opening more and more everyday and I'm learning more as I seek Him out. Does anyone else pray "God, your will be done through my life," and not "God, help me get my agenda through to others today, so that they will believe as I do."? I used to be the latter. Now, I could care less if anyone agrees with my faith. Yes. To me, one of the most valuable aspects of choosing to believe in "God" is that through this belief, I can seek the best within myself, and slowly work on trying to become it. When I pray "God, please help me today to be calm, to be kind and attentive to others, to listen to them and to support them and to 'lift them up' for who they are, and not insist on them being who I want them to be; please help me not to get lost in my own desires, and my own comfort, and in my own ego", what I am really doing here is expressing what I believe is the best way for me to "be", and the prayer is reminding myself that I want and need to make a conscious effort at becoming this person. It's through my faith and hope in "God" that I become a better version of myself. And this is just one of many good reasons for me to choose to believe in God, even though God may not even exist.

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Poly

What if your agenda is seeking out the lost? Wouldn't that be God's will in your life? To get the lost to believe as you do?

I'm not trying to be confusing, just looking at it from a different perspective.

But God would have to lay that will on me wouldn't He? We are called to minister to the lost, but we have to keep it in the back of our minds that its God getting His word across and not mine. It's kind of a humility thing for me.

Good point Poly.

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by PureX

Yes. To me, one of the most valuable aspects of choosing to believe in "God" is that through this belief, I can seek the best within myself, and slowly work on trying to become it. When I pray "God, please help me today to be calm, to be kind and attentive to others, to listen to them and to support them and to 'lift them up' for who they are, and not insist on them being who I want them to be; please help me not to get lost in my own desires, and my own comfort, and in my own ego", what I am really doing here is expressing what I believe is the best way for me to "be", and the prayer is reminding myself that I want and need to make a conscious effort at becoming this person. It's through my faith and hope in "God" that I become a better version of myself. And this is just one of many good reasons for me to choose to believe in God, even though God may not even exist.

Tell me, why do you "choose" to believe in God? I'm just curious, that's all.

[smaller]

Peace Swordsman

The scripture you cited pokes holes in MANY DOCTRINES...

particularly that of Mr. Sozo. He has an extreme dislike for that string of text BECAUSE it shows that NOT EVERYONE who "mouths" those famous "words of faith" whereby people THINK they are secure are secure.

I use their own "doctrines" to show that EVEN THOUGH THEY MOUTH THE WORDS they still DO NOT ENTER...

very interesting....

You are right to QUESTION, TEST, AND REASON.

God asks NO MAN to be an idiot.

enjoy!

smaller

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by smaller

Peace Swordsman

The scripture you cited pokes holes in MANY DOCTRINES...

particularly that of Mr. Sozo. He has an extreme dislike for that one BECAUSE it shows that NOT EVERYONE who "mouths" those famous "words of faith" whereby people THINK they are secure are secure.

I use their own "doctrines" to show that EVEN THOUGH THEY MOUTH THE WORDS they still DO NOT ENTER...

very interesting....

You are right to QUESTION, TEST, AND REASON.

God asks NO MAN to be an idiot.

I never give up hope though. God can transform the hearts who refuse or contort the truth.

God Bless you smaller

[smaller]

You may observe than many say they walk in faith with the accuser of others in their hands (writings.)

I have learned a thing or two about the ACCUSER OF OTHERS and try to avoid JOINING with that liar. It's not good for your head or your heart.

Blessings in The Way....

[PureX]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Tell me, why do you "choose" to believe in God? I'm just curious, that's all. Well, my last post explains one reason - I think that believing in God, and then "interacting" with that belief can help bring the best out from within ourselves, and can help us to recognize it and work at becomeing it.

I also think that believing in God gives us hope and a course of positive action in times of great stress. Here is an essay (http://users.rcn.com/davestul/FandI.html) about how this works, but the short version is that when we find ourselves caught in difficult circumstances that we cannot control, a belief in God can give us hope for a solution, and even a positive course of action to take, that we would not otherwise have had in such difficult situations.

I also find that a belief in "God" can give us an idea of value and meaning that extends beyond just our own comfort and the comfort of those we love. Through a belief in God, we can adopt a concern for the welfare of others that can bring us a broader and deeper sense of meaning and purpose than I think we would otherwise have. And there are other, more personal and individual-specific advantages of believing in God as well. For example, for people who suffer from loneliness, God can become a "friend". For people who suffer from deep fears, their idea of God can "lend" them the courage to try some things they might not otherwise have the courage to try.

I think there are lots of good and positive reason that one would choose to believe in a God, and those reasons will hold true whether "God" actually exists or not. We don't have to profess to "know" that God exists, to choose to believe in the existence of God. All we need to do is remember that there is no proof that God does NOT exist. Once we accept that God could exist, and that we can choose to belive that (he) does, we will begin to gain the benefits of such a choice, and those benefits in themselves can become their own value and reason.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Matthew 7:21-23 says: Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'

Boy, I wanna do God's will every waking hour after fulling knowing this verse. I used to believe I was the good little Christian going to church, getting involved in the Body, and doing Bible study after Bible study.

I think my eyes are opening more and more everyday and I'm learning more as I seek Him out. Does anyone else pray "God, your will be done through my life," and not "God, help me get my agenda through to others today, so that they will believe as I do."? I used to be the latter. Now, I could care less if anyone agrees with my faith.

:think:

You pose an interesting question here Swordsman, and it took me a while to come up with a coherent response to it. Addressing the question in the subject line, "Do Wanna-be Believers exist?" I believe the answer in two different interpretations of the question are both yes. These two interpretatsion can be called "Do there exist people who claim to believe but are not saved?" and "Do there exist people who want to believe but for some reason cannot?" I hold the answer to both to be a resounding yes.

I personally think that the majority of militant fundies - the people who take a stand on every little thing but do nothing about it other than a bunch of yelling and quoting scripture - are most likely included in the first part. Which is to say that I hold the belief that most fundies are not saved Christians.

I also think that the second category exists; I happen to fall into that second category. I would love to believe in the Bible as literal truth but something about my subconscious mind riles against it no matter how much I try to believe it. I can live according to it and obey its laws just fine, but for reasons that I've discussed elsewhere I can't accept it as literal truth in all situations.


I hope this post helped a bit. :)

[Lighthouse]

PureX-
If you say that there may not be a God, then you don't believe in Him.

I was expecting this to be about people who hear the Gospel and want to be Christians, but haven't done anything that they think is required to be a Christian. Some would say that those people want to be Christians, but if they believe in their hearts and confess with their mouths they are already Christians. There is no such thing as a wannabe Christian. Either you are, or you aren't. And just because you think you are, doesn't gaurantee anything.

[PureX]

Originally posted by lighthouse PureX-
If you say that there may not be a God, then you don't believe in Him.If human beings were one-dimensinal, what you say would be true. But we aren't. We are fully capable of holding two opposing ideas simaltaneously. Therefor, we are fully capable of "believing", and of skepticism regarding those beliefs at the same time.
Originally posted by lighthouse would say that those people want to be Christians, but if they believe in their hearts and confess with their mouths they are already Christians. There is no such thing as a wannabe Christian. Either you are, or you aren't. And just because you think you are, doesn't gaurantee anything. It doesn't matter what beliefs people "profess", it matters who they are.
*sigh* Religion has become so petty.

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

I also think that the second category exists; I happen to fall into that second category. I would love to believe in the Bible as literal truth but something about my subconscious mind riles against it no matter how much I try to believe it. I can live according to it and obey its laws just fine, but for reasons that I've discussed elsewhere I can't accept it as literal truth in all situations.


I hope this post helped a bit. :)

Yes, I understand what you are saying N. Why would you say that you reject the Word and not accept it as the truth? I ask this, because without faith, I wouldn't believe much of it to be true either.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Swordsman

Yes, I understand what you are saying N. Why would you say that you reject the Word and not accept it as the truth? I ask this, because without faith, I wouldn't believe much of it to be true either.

It's certainly not my choice to subconsciously disbelieve it. I can desire to believe it all I want, but that doesn't change the fact that somewhere in the back of my mind, something is riling against it. Perhaps because I took an early interest in secular learning, or perhaps because I was raised in a world of liberal media, or perhaps it's just the voice of Satan; in any event, it's something I can't bring myself to honestly say. I am quite capable of living in a way according to the Old Testament laws, but I could not look you in the eye and say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I believe in Christianity or Jesus Christ. I would compare it to if say you were trying to make yourself like canadian bacon and olive pizza when in factyou do not like it. But that's not nearly good enough an example.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by PureX

It doesn't matter what beliefs people "profess", it matters who they are.
*sigh* Religion has become so petty.

You are agreeing with my statement.

[PureX]

Originally posted by lighthouse You are agreeing with my statement. If your really thought so, you wouldn't have posted it.

[Nietzschean]

:think:

[Lighthouse]

PureX-
That made no sense.

[PureX]

When I was a kid, there were a lot of "spy" shows on TV - "Man From U.N.C.L.E.", "Get Smart", stuff like that. So all the kids in the neighborhood would divide themselves up into groups of "secret spies" and try to capture spies from the other groups. Once we captured someone, we would "torture" them to make them tell about the other group ("where's their clubhouse", etc.) and finally we would make them denounce the other spy group and join ours.

It seems to me that Christian organizations have advanced little from this silly spy game that we played as kids. They still want to torture people from the "other camp" into renouncing their previous affiliation and into joining them, as if the declaration had some magical power to transform their hearts and minds.

At least when we were kids, we knew we were playing a game. Thanks to the blindness of fear and superstition, the adults don't seem to understand their own game.

[Lighthouse]

That is not something I do, PureX. I merely profess what I believe. Doesn't it make sense that if I truly believe that people go to hell if they live without God, that I minister to them and tell tehm about God? And that I want them to believe in Him, also?

[PureX]

Originally posted by lighthouse That is not something I do, PureX. I merely profess what I believe. Doesn't it make sense that if I truly believe that people go to hell if they live without God, that I minister to them and tell tehm about God? And that I want them to believe in Him, also? I wasn't accusing you in particular. It's just that you brought up this idea of having to "profess" some religious beliefs or other in order to be a Christian. Professions don't make people Christians, and professions don't preclude people from being Christians. What we believe about God doesn't effect God, and usually doesn't effct us, either. If fact, I'd say that what people choose to believe about God is far more the result of who they are than it is the cause.

But religions seem to be so full of themselves these days that this idea of "professing" their creeds and dogmas and whatnot becomes all-important.

[Poly]

Originally posted by PureX


But religions seem to be so full of themselves these days that this idea of "professing" their creeds and dogmas and whatnot becomes all-important.
You're blatent hypocrisy amazes me. You imply that "professing" ones belief isn't a good thing yet you profess:
What we believe about God doesn't effect God, and usually doesn't effct us, either. If fact, I'd say that what people choose to believe about God is far more the result of who they are than it is the cause.

[PureX]

Originally posted by Poly You're blatent hypocrisy amazes me. You imply that "professing" ones belief isn't a good thing yet you profess: I never said that professing what one believes is "bad". All I said was that it's mostly meaningless, yet Christianity makes it into the pinnacle of the faith. It's ridiculous egotism is all.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by PureX

When I was a kid, there were a lot of "spy" shows on TV - "Man From U.N.C.L.E.", "Get Smart", stuff like that. So all the kids in the neighborhood would divide themselves up into groups of "secret spies" and try to capture spies from the other groups. Once we captured someone, we would "torture" them to make them tell about the other group ("where's their clubhouse", etc.) and finally we would make them denounce the other spy group and join ours.

It seems to me that Christian organizations have advanced little from this silly spy game that we played as kids. They still want to torture people from the "other camp" into renouncing their previous affiliation and into joining them, as if the declaration had some magical power to transform their hearts and minds.

At least when we were kids, we knew we were playing a game. Thanks to the blindness of fear and superstition, the adults don't seem to understand their own game.

Nice little post there PureX.
I loved "Get Smart," the shoe phone was great.

[missedmarks]

Getting back to the original question, and slightly off on a tangent at the same time.

The orginal sin was wanting to "be like God"

We still do this, everyone does this. Everytime you seek revenge, everytime you demand others live up to your standards, every time you reject someone, you are striving to take God's role.

I think there are plenty of people who participate in the religion of Christianity without ever really submitting to their God. There is plenty of empty gestrures one can make in a Christian church without ever really becoming a Christian.

Still, Christ is right there, all you really have to do is listen and surrender to him for just a moment, and he has you.

[PureX]

Originally posted by missedmarks

Getting back to the original question, and slightly off on a tangent at the same time.

The orginal sin was wanting to "be like God"

We still do this, everyone does this. Everytime you seek revenge, everytime you demand others live up to your standards, every time you reject someone, you are striving to take God's role.

I think there are plenty of people who participate in the religion of Christianity without ever really submitting to their God. There is plenty of empty gestrures one can make in a Christian church without ever really becoming a Christian.

Still, Christ is right there, all you really have to do is listen and surrender to him for just a moment, and he has you. Most Christians do not understand that the original sin as depicted in Genesis was mankind's desire to be God's equal. The first humans "ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil" ie: they presumed to become the judges of God's creation, and in doing so, lost their ability to live in harmony with that creation as they had before.

Most Christians think that the original sin was "disobedience", because that's what the church wants them to think. The church is all about controlling and manipulating people, so of course it teaches that the original sin is to disobey God (ie.; to disobey their religious organization, that purports to be the representative of God on Earth).

[Z Man]

Wanna-be Christians? Hmmm..

I beleive there are some who "play" christian to glorify themselves before other men; to make themselves look "holy" and "good" before others. They also do this to feel better about themselves. People who do this think to themselves, "I'm a better person than Hitler. God will love me and accept me for who I've made myself to be; because of what I've done for Him."

That's false, and they'll be the ones we read about in Matthew. Going to the alter and saying a prayer, asking Jesus into your heart will not save you. Waking up on a Sunday morning and thinking to yourself that you need to change, that you're tired of living the same life, and that you will go to church to "give your heart to Jesus" will not save you. Believing that you need to turn your life around will not save you. Doing wonderful things for God will not save you.


You don't love God so that He will then save you. To love God IS to be saved. It is a gift, not an achievement. You can make yourself moral. You can make yourself religious. But you can't make yourself love. "We love," John says, "because he first loved us (1 John 4:19)". -Frederick Buechner


The only way that anyone can be saved is if God grants them His grace of repentance and opens their heart and mind to the reality of thier sins. As C.H. Spurgeon once said:

No sooner is the soul quickened, than it at once discovers its lost estate - its horrified threat - looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flies to him and reposes in him.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Z Man

Wanna-be Christians? Hmmm..

I beleive there are some who "play" christian to glorify themselves before other men; to make themselves look "holy" and "good" before others. They also do this to feel better about themselves. People who do this think to themselves, "I'm a better person than Hitler. God will love me and accept me for who I've made myself to be; because of what I've done for Him."

That's false, and they'll be the ones we read about in Matthew. Going to the alter and saying a prayer, asking Jesus into your heart will not save you. Waking up on a Sunday morning and thinking to yourself that you need to change, that you're tired of living the same life, and that you will go to church to "give your heart to Jesus" will not save you. Believing that you need to turn your life around will not save you. Doing wonderful things for God will not save you.


You don't love God so that He will then save you. To love God IS to be saved. It is a gift, not an achievement. You can make yourself moral. You can make yourself religious. But you can't make yourself love. "We love," John says, "because he first loved us (1 John 4:19)". -Frederick Buechner


The only way that anyone can be saved is if God grants them His grace of repentance and opens their heart and mind to the reality of thier sins. As C.H. Spurgeon once said:

No sooner is the soul quickened, than it at once discovers its lost estate - its horrified threat - looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flies to him and reposes in him.

:thumb:

[Nietzschean]

:think:

[Kiwicottonball]

Originally posted by PureX

Most Christians do not understand that the original sin as depicted in Genesis was mankind's desire to be God's equal. The first humans "ate of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil" ie: they presumed to become the judges of God's creation, and in doing so, lost their ability to live in harmony with that creation as they had before.

Most Christians think that the original sin was "disobedience", because that's what the church wants them to think. The church is all about controlling and manipulating people, so of course it teaches that the original sin is to disobey God (ie.; to disobey their religious organization, that purports to be the representative of God on Earth).


I have always been of this persuasion.

Luckily not ALL churches are about controlling and manipulating, but a lot are. That's why I like the Gospel of Thomas, which says that the true Church of God is within yourself.

[Nietzschean]

:)

[rstrats]

re: “Do wanna-be believers exist?”

At least one does. I would truly like to have a belief in a supreme being, but because a person can not simply consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something exists or that a certain proposition is true, I may never obtain that belief.

[PureX]

Originally posted by rstrats

re: “Do wanna-be believers exist?”

At least one does. I would truly like to have a belief in a supreme being, but because a person can not simply consciously CHOOSE to believe that someone or something exists or that a certain proposition is true, I may never obtain that belief. True. But if you're being honest with yourself, you can also say that there is no proof that a suprime being exactly as you would wish to exist doesn't exist. And there is no reason that you could not choose to live as if this being does exist even though you can't be certain of it. So why not?

After all, if believing in God makes you a better person, and gives you a better life, and you have no evidence to prove that God does NOT exist, then why not choose to put your faith where it can really help?

Just a thought.

[rstrats]

PureX,

re: “...why not choose to put your faith where it can really help?”

Are you implying that you think that a person can consciously CHOOSE to believe/have faith that someone or something does or doesn’t exist or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true? If so, what is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true?

[billwald]

I propose 3 catagories:

1. The elect who realize that they are believers.
2. The elect who have not realised that they are believers.
3. Everyone else.

[PureX]

Originally posted by rstrats

PureX,

re: “...why not choose to put your faith where it can really help?”

Are you implying that you think that a person can consciously CHOOSE to believe/have faith that someone or something does or doesn’t exist or that a certain proposition is or isn’t true? If so, what is it that you do that would allow you to say, “OK, at this moment I have a lack of belief that ‘x’ exists or is true, but I CHOOSE to believe that ‘x’ exists or is true and now instantly at this new moment I do believe that ‘x’ exists or is true? As human beings we are capable of holding more than one thought in our minds at a time. I can choose to "believe" that God exists while at the same time understanding that I cannot prove that this is so, and that I could be completely wrong.

In fact, we do this all the time. When you're driving your car, and you come to an intersection, you choose to believe that the other cars will stop when their light is red, and that you can proceed through the intersection safely. You even stake your life on this belief. Yet in reality you have no way of really knowing that the other cars will stop. You are actually betting your life on a probability that they will stop, acquired by your previous experiences with such intersections. You are placing your faith in this probability, which is the result of your own experience and reasoning.

In the case of "God", there is no direct prior experience to help us to develop reasonable probability that God exists or does not exist. So it's really a 50/50 proposition. And it is likely to remain so for our lifetime. This being the case, we are going to have to accept that we can't know for certain that God does or does not exist, but that doesn't mean that we can't live as if God exists. After all, we live as if we know things that we don't actually know all the time. We have to because in reality there are a whole lot of things that we can't actually know, and that we can only presume to be so. If we waited until we knew the answers to all our questions before acting, we'd never act on anything.

So it's not unreasonable to presume that something is true even when we can't really know for certain that it's true or not. We do it all the time. We do it because we have to, and because it "works" for us most of the time. Then why not do the same with a "belief" in God? Choose a concept of God that you believe makes the most sense, and that helps you live a better and happier life, and live as if this God exists (just like you live as if the other cars will stop at the red lights). And see what happens. If it "works" for you, then keep it. If it doesn't, then maybe you need a different idea of God, or maybe you don't need the idea of God at all. That's up to you.

My point is that if you feel a desire to believe in God, it is not at all unreasonnable for you to do so. You CAN believe in God and still remain aware that your beliefs could be inaccurate. That's what faith is all about. Faith isn't blindly pretending that your beliefs are right no matter what (as religionists often claim), faith is hoping, and living by that hope, even though you can't know that your hopes will turn out to be a reality.

[rstrats]

PureX,

re: “As human beings we are capable of holding more than one thought in our minds at a time. I can choose to "believe" that God exists while at the same time understanding that I cannot prove that this is so, and that I could be completely wrong.”

I don’t see how that is possible. I don’t see how you can believe - be convinced without a doubt - that “x” exists AND at the same time NOT believe - NOT be convinced without a doubt - that “x” exists.


re: “When you're driving your car, and you come to an intersection, you choose to believe that the other cars will stop when their light is red, and that you can proceed through the intersection safely.”

That would be incorrect. I have never been able to consciously CHOOSE any of the beliefs that I have and as I said, I would like to be able to do that - for example to effect a belief in a supreme being or to believe that it is possible to become a more compassionate person.


re: “My point is that if you feel a desire to believe in God, it is not at all unreasonable for you to do so.”


And that is what I would like to learn. How do you CHOOSE to do that - CHOOSE to believe? What do you do that allows you to say: “Okay, I have obtained information about “X” and while I still do not believe that “X” exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that “X” exists and - poof - I now believe that “X” exists? Perhaps you could use something like leprechauns to demonstrate your technique. According to the Encyclopedia Britannica, a leprechaun is “a fairy peculiar to Ireland, who appeared in the form of an old man of minute stature, wearing a cocked hat and a leather apron.” So, assuming that you don’t already have a belief in them, how about right now, while you are reading this, CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that they exist. Now that you believe in leprechauns, my question is, how did you do it? How did you make the instantaneous transition from lack of belief to belief?


re: “Choose a concept of God that you believe makes the most sense, and that helps you live a better and happier life, and live as if this God exists...”

I’m afraid that I don’t see what this has to do with being able to consciously CHOOSE to believe that a supreme being exists. I could live as if Santa Claus existed by hanging a stocking on the mantel and leaving cookies and milk on the hearth and I still wouldn’t know how to consciously CHOOSE to believe in him.

[PureX]

Originally posted by rstrats And that is what I would like to learn. How do you CHOOSE to do that - CHOOSE to believe? What do you do that allows you to say: “Okay, I have obtained information about “X” and while I still do not believe that “X” exists, I am going to CHOOSE to believe - be convinced without a doubt - that “X” exists and - poof - I now believe that “X” exists?If you are sincere, then first understand that to change your beliefs will take a little time and effort on your part. And though I understand completely why you might feel that you are not "in charge" of what you believe to be true, I can say from direct personal experience that this is not true. We are "in charge" of what we choose to believe is the truth about many things. Though it's not easy to change our paradyms, it certainly is possible, and lots of people have done it.

I would also say that you make a mistake if you think you can know things of this nature "without a doubt". Human beings are not omniscient, and so there is always going to be doubt about anything that we think we "know". No matter how certain we are, we can never know how what we don't know now, would effect what we think we do know if we were to know it. (I realize this is a ridiculous sentance, but it is nevertheless logical and valid.) The pursuit of certainty is a "sucker's game". Knowledge is fluid, and relative, and rarely if ever truly certain.

So I would say that this is step number one in learning how to change (or take charge of) what you "believe" - that is to understand that beliefs are never certain. They're just what makes the most sense to us at the moment, given the limited information and experience that we have. Once you understand this, then you can use this understanding to begin applying some real skepticism to what you have been holding as the "truth" up until now. After all, if you're going to acquire a new paradym for your beliefs, then you're going to have to find a way of letting go of some of the old ones.

And that would be step two. What do you really believe about God, now? On what are these beliefs based? Can you see how these beliefs are based on assumptions that you can't actually prove? The closer you look, the more you will discover that the beliefs you hold regarding God are already based mostly on someone's personal choice (maybe not your choice, if you were taught to believe as you do as a kid, but even then, you chose not to actually doubt, explore, and change those beliefs until now). And once you find enough reasonable doubt with the ideas about God that you hold already, then you have opened the door to other equally viable possibilities.

Now that you can conceive of other possible conceptions about the nature and existence of God, then the natural questions arise as to what possibille concepts of God would make more sense than those you held previously.

If you can get this far, I could suggest further steps.

[rstrats]

PureX,

Thanks for taking the time to offer your comments. However, since we don’t agree on the definition of belief I’m afraid that you won’t be able to help me.