Do Calvinists believe dangerously? [Archive] - Theology Forum

oliverdread

March 3rd, 2004, 05:39 PM

Swordsman,

2Peter 3:9 does not disprove Limited atonement.

2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one [fact] escape your notice, BELOVED, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Notice the personal use of 'YOU' and 'BELOVED'...

God is holding back his wrath for the sake of the elect. Let me ask a question, if Jesus had come back before a time when you had made a profession in Christ, would you be saved? No. God is patient and waiting for the full number of elect. God is patient with us, holding back his wrath so than none of those who are elected to salvation aren't lost in unbelief. I ask sometimes, "Could Paul have died before Jesus met him on the road to Damascus?" If so, it seems God's great plan would have been thwarted. No, God's mercy for Paul endured and he kept him till his work was done.

But, John Owens was right when he said 2Peter 3 pertains to the wrath of God against Jerusalem which took place in AD70. God was holding back his wrath so that all the elect jews and gentiles within the land could be saved.

You can see the extreme urgency in the commission of the disciples:
Matthew 10:23 "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish [going through] the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

The Gospel was to be spread, God's wrath was already stored up!

With that said- Limited atonement is a domino in the Doctrines of Grace. The critics are right when they say if you remove one point, then they all fall. Like wise, if you remove Limited Atonement then you have said that Jesus died for all- but for what purpose? Total depravity and unconditional election don't really make sense inlight of the fact that Jesus died for all, knowing not all would be saved.

But, I also understand there is a balanced perspective that allows a person to affirm the limited/unlimited aspect of the atonement. I understand that certain benefits flow from the cross-act of Christ, one being common grace. So, I guess some would say the cross-act was more than just a sin bearing/atoning, vicarious sacrifice- in so much as certain things are granted to the non-elect.

God saves HIS PEOPLE: Isaiah 53:8; Matthew 1:21; Luke 1:68,77
Jesus died for MANY: Isaiah 53:11-12; Matthew 20:28,26:28; Mark 14:24; Hebrews 9:28
Jesus died for his SHEEP: John 10:11,14-16)
Jesus died for the elect: Romans 8:32-33
The list goes on...

in HIS grip,

O.D.

Swordsman

March 4th, 2004, 06:57 AM

Those are all the points that I already know O.D. Thank you. I'm just saying that I'm not yet 100% sure in my mind about it. I'm not questioning my faith at all. Because all that really matters is that Christ has saved me by His grace.

My point is - I really never will have it all figured out. But that's the beauty of studying His Word. God is Sovereign. He has opened my eye in the past to things such as the Doctrine of Grace. I'm praying He shows me the way with the Limited Atonement point.

Z Man

March 6th, 2004, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by Swordsman

I've been doing some soul-searching about one of the 5 points of Calvinism - Limited Atonement. I'm praying for wisdom on that one. 2 Peter 3:9 came up on another thread, and I've been mulling over it for about a week now.

So, I'm still not sold yet on it. I may be more of a 4-point Calvinist.
If Christ died for everyone, then no one would go to hell. Jesus said in John that He came to die for His sheep only. And then He turns around and tells a few Jews that they are not His sheep. That means Christ did not die for them. If there is no "limited atonement", or if Christ did not die for just the elect, but for everyone, then His sacrifice is a failure since some people still go to hell.

God_Is_Truth

March 7th, 2004, 12:26 AM

If Christ died for everyone, then no one would go to hell.

does not follow just from that sentence. you need to explain more deeply WHY you believe that statement and the reasoning behind it.

Jesus said in John that He came to die for His sheep only. And then He turns around and tells a few Jews that they are not His sheep. That means Christ did not die for them.

please quote the scripture for the sake of those who have not seen them yet.

If there is no "limited atonement", or if Christ did not die for just the elect, but for everyone, then His sacrifice is a failure since some people still go to hell.

OR, he in fact did die for everyone but it only applies or is credited to those who have faith in him. faith has always been the requirement for salvation going all the way back to abraham. and no, faith is not a work.

Z Man

March 7th, 2004, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

If Christ died for everyone, then no one would go to hell.
does not follow just from that sentence. you need to explain more deeply WHY you believe that statement and the reasoning behind it.
Hey GIT.

My post was for Swordsman, and I just assumed he already knew all these things. I'm sorry for not thinking about the other's who may have read my post and yet know nothing of the sorts. Ok, here's my attempt to answer your question.

If Christ died for everyone, then no one would go to hell.

That's assuming that you believe Christ's sacrifice is what actually saves people. If not, then of course His sacrifice did not accomplish salvation, but only made it possible. Then of course everyone in the whole world can be saved, if they somehow manage to fulfill the requirements from God in order to obtain salvation of themselves, since Christ's work on the cross does not grant this. I like what John Piper says about this issue:

Originally from John Piper

The term "limited atonement" addresses the question, "For whom did Christ die?" But behind the question of the extent of the atonement lies the equally important question about the nature of the atonement. What did Christ actually achieve on the cross for those for whom he died?

If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. In the first case you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God.

For if Christ died for all men in the same way then he did not purchase regenerating grace for those who are saved. They must regenerate themselves and bring themselves to faith. Then and only then do they become partakers of the benefits of the cross.

In other words if you believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren't. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to save ourselves from the bondage of sin, the hardness of heart, the blindness of corruption, and the wrath of God.

Therefore it becomes evident that it is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement. It is the Arminian, because he denies that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need -- namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. The Arminian limits the nature and value and effectiveness of the atonement so that he can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.
Jesus said in John that He came to die for His sheep only. And then He turns around and tells a few Jews that they are not His sheep. That means Christ did not die for them.
please quote the scripture for the sake of those who have not seen them yet.
Yeah.. sorry 'bout that. Here ya go:

John 10:14-16, 24-28
"I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
If there is no "limited atonement", or if Christ did not die for just the elect, but for everyone, then His sacrifice is a failure since some people still go to hell.
OR, he in fact did die for everyone but it only applies or is credited to those who have faith in him. faith has always been the requirement for salvation going all the way back to abraham. and no, faith is not a work.
In other words, Christ only made all men savable. We have to somehow save ourselves from our own sins, since Christ's death didn't accomplish that. Read the quote above from John Piper for more explanation.

I know this isn't what you truely mean, but that is the truth whenever someone says that Christ did in fact die for every human being in the world, yet believe that some people still go to hell. They're practically saying Christ's sacrifice was not meant to save, whether they mean to or not.

God_Is_Truth

March 7th, 2004, 03:33 PM

Hey GIT.

My post was for Swordsman, and I just assumed he already knew all these things. I'm sorry for not thinking about the other's who may have read my post and yet know nothing of the sorts. Ok, here's my attempt to answer your question.

i know it was for Swordsman and i didn't mean to intrude, it was just that your post came off as rather quick and seemed like it needed some more explanation. i knew what you were talking about, but that's cause we've dialogued before with each other. it was just trying to see that Swordsman didn't jump to any conclusions about what you meant.

That's assuming that you believe Christ's sacrifice is what actually saves people. If not, then of course His sacrifice did not accomplish salvation, but only made it possible. Then of course everyone in the whole world can be saved, if they somehow manage to fulfill the requirements from God in order to obtain salvation of themselves, since Christ's work on the cross does not grant this. I like what John Piper says about this issue:

the requirement for salvation has always been faith in God. everyone is capable of putting their faith in God because they are not totally depraved. thus, Christ died for all so that those who put their faith in him would be saved.

Originally from John Piper

The term "limited atonement" addresses the question, "For whom did Christ die?" But behind the question of the extent of the atonement lies the equally important question about the nature of the atonement. What did Christ actually achieve on the cross for those for whom he died?

If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. In the first case you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God.

For if Christ died for all men in the same way then he did not purchase regenerating grace for those who are saved. They must regenerate themselves and bring themselves to faith. Then and only then do they become partakers of the benefits of the cross.

In other words if you believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren't. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to save ourselves from the bondage of sin, the hardness of heart, the blindness of corruption, and the wrath of God.

Therefore it becomes evident that it is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement. It is the Arminian, because he denies that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need -- namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. The Arminian limits the nature and value and effectiveness of the atonement so that he can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.

what Piper says follows if one affirms Total Depravity and Irresistible grace. since i deny both, i can allow Christ to die for all so that all have the opportunity to be saved by putting their faith in Jesus.

Yeah.. sorry 'bout that. Here ya go:

John 10:14-16, 24-28
"I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

no problem. i'm sure you already know how i interpret the verses you used so we won't get back into that.

In other words, Christ only made all men savable. We have to somehow save ourselves from our own sins, since Christ's death didn't accomplish that. Read the quote above from John Piper for more explanation.

I know this isn't what you truely mean, but that is the truth whenever someone says that Christ did in fact die for every human being in the world, yet believe that some people still go to hell. They're practically saying Christ's sacrifice was not meant to save, whether they mean to or not.

Christ provided a means of salvation for all who put faith in him. i'm sure you have heard of the bridge analogy sometimes used in witnessing.

there are two cliffs. on one side is man and on one side is God and in the middle is a huge divide that no one can get accross no matter what he or she does. no work of their own will get them to God.

however, Jesus came and died for all men and thus becomes a bridge between us and God. all men are now able to cross over to God not of their own works, but God's. however, God won't make them cross over the bridge. it's up to each person to put their faith in Jesus and thus, find God.

we each are fully capable of crossing the bridge (faith) of Jesus and going to God. before Jesus, it was impossible. because we are each capable, we can truly be found guilty for not choosing God. if God only died for some, then we shouldn't be found guilty for not doing something we couldn't do. that would be injustice.

Z Man

March 7th, 2004, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

the requirement for salvation has always been faith in God. everyone is capable of putting their faith in God because they are not totally depraved. thus, Christ died for all so that those who put their faith in him would be saved.
You just stated an obvious contridiction. You just said:

the requirement for salvation has always been faith in God.

But then you turn around and say that:

Christ died for all so that those who put their faith in him would be saved.

Ok, so which one is it? Does Christ's death save us, or our faith?what Piper says follows if one affirms Total Depravity and Irresistible grace. since i deny both, i can allow Christ to die for all so that all have the opportunity to be saved by putting their faith in Jesus.
Then you agree with what he said then? You...

...believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith...
no problem. i'm sure you already know how i interpret the verses you used so we won't get back into that.
What's there to interpret? Jesus said He came to die exclusively for His sheep, and then He told some Jews that they did not believe because they were not His sheep. Therefore, Christ did not die for them. That's exactly what the text says. There's no other way around it.
Christ provided a means of salvation for all who put faith in him.
So if no one believed in Christ, He died in vain. You limit Christ's sacrifice to only providing a means of salvation, not providing salvation itself. If that's the case, how does one become saved? If Christ's death didn't accomplish it, what does?
Jesus came and died for all men and thus becomes a bridge between us and God. all men are now able to cross over to God not of their own works, but God's.
Agree.
however, God won't make them cross over the bridge. it's up to each person to put their faith in Jesus and thus, find God.
What?! You just contridicted yourself. You're not making any sense here. Ok, earlier you just said that we are saved by God's work through Jesus Christ. Then you turn around and say that it's up to each person to "put their faith in Christ and find God".

Is salvation of us, or God? Make up your mind.
we each are fully capable of crossing the bridge (faith) of Jesus and going to God.
Then no man in their right mind would ever go to hell. Saying that all are capable of crossing the bridge means that you are boasting in the fact that you crossed, yet other's have not.

In the military, all are capable of recieving awards and ribbons. But only those who actually did a "good work" recieved such a reward. Therefore, those who had a bigger rack earned it. And those who did not have that many medals and ribbons were obvious "slackers". It was obvious that those with more awards and ribbons earned more respect because they were "better" in what they did than those who lacked the same medals and awards, since all are equally capable of recieving the same.

Get the picture? If all are capable of salvation, yet only some attain it means that it has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with us. It allows for boasting. Christ's sacrifice does not save us, but rather our efforts to believe in Him do.

:nono:

God_Is_Truth

March 7th, 2004, 10:31 PM

You just stated an obvious contridiction. You just said:

the requirement for salvation has always been faith in God.

But then you turn around and say that:

Christ died for all so that those who put their faith in him would be saved.

Ok, so which one is it? Does Christ's death save us, or our faith?

Christ died SO that our faith in him would save us.

Then you agree with what he said then? You...

...believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith...

new birth is not a requirement. everyone already has faith but they need to hear the gospel in order to put it in Christ. so, no. i don't agree with the statement.

What's there to interpret? Jesus said He came to die exclusively for His sheep, and then He told some Jews that they did not believe because they were not His sheep. Therefore, Christ did not die for them. That's exactly what the text says. There's no other way around it.

the sheep are those who have put their faith in Jesus. obviously those who don't believe what Jesus tells them don't believe because they don't have faith in him. however, it does not mean that they can't at some point put their faith in him, thus becoming sheep and then they would easily believe everything else Jesus said.

So if no one believed in Christ, He died in vain. You limit Christ's sacrifice to only providing a means of salvation, not providing salvation itself. If that's the case, how does one become saved? If Christ's death didn't accomplish it, what does?

the requirement has always been and will always be FAITH. however, without Jesus, our faith is useless and we are still in our sins just as 1 Corinthians 15 says:

1 Cor 15
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

Agree.

but probably not of the same understanding :D

What?! You just contridicted yourself. You're not making any sense here. Ok, earlier you just said that we are saved by God's work through Jesus Christ. Then you turn around and say that it's up to each person to "put their faith in Christ and find God".

Is salvation of us, or God? Make up your mind.

Jesus is the WAY to salvation. our part is FAITH in Jesus. God is always the one who saves us. however, it's up to each one of us, as to whether we choose to enter into that salvation. offered to all, accepted by only a few.

Then no man in their right mind would ever go to hell. Saying that all are capable of crossing the bridge means that you are boasting in the fact that you crossed, yet other's have not.

no, some men would STILL choose hell. open your eyes. some people would still reject God even if he descended out of the clouds with might power.

my deciding to cross the bridge is certainly nothing i can boast about! it's saying that i myself cannot do anything to get to God apart from faith in Christ! it is complete abandonement of any of my own works. it's saying "i cannot get to God on anything of my own so i will throw myself at Jesus' feet and trust in him to save me".

In the military, all are capable of recieving awards and ribbons. But only those who actually did a "good work" recieved such a reward. Therefore, those who had a bigger rack earned it. And those who did not have that many medals and ribbons were obvious "slackers". It was obvious that those with more awards and ribbons earned more respect because they were "better" in what they did than those who lacked the same medals and awards, since all are equally capable of recieving the same.

salvation is not given to any on the basis of one's own good works but through Faith in Jesus and trusting COMPLETELY in him alone. there is no "I" or "me" or self-accomplishment. it's about what Christ has done and the hope one has through him for salvation.

Get the picture? If all are capable of salvation, yet only some attain it means that it has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with us. It allows for boasting. Christ's sacrifice does not save us, but rather our efforts to believe in Him do.

Jesus paid the price for ALL. he is our bridge for anyone and everyone who chooses to cross it. the problem is that choosing that path means you can't trust in any of your own efforts. most people don't like that. there's your hang up and why many people say no to the free gift: pride.

God Bless you Z Man.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 8th, 2004, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Christ died SO that our faith in him would save us.
Moses never heard of the gospel message of Christ. Niether did David, or Noah, or Abraham. So how does thier faith save them if they did not believe in the Jesus we know of? Did Christ die for them? Or did they not need Christ's sacrifice, since their faith was "accounted as righteousness"?
new birth is not a requirement.
Oh yeah? That's not what Jesus taught:

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
everyone already has faith...
Where did you read that? I've never heard of such a thing. And if that was the case, everyone would be saved. You said it yourself; the requirement for salvation is faith.
everyone already has faith but they need to hear the gospel in order to put it in Christ.
Again, Moses and David and all those in the Old Testament never heard about Jesus. Were they saved?
the sheep are those who have put their faith in Jesus. obviously those who don't believe what Jesus tells them don't believe because they don't have faith in him. however, it does not mean that they can't at some point put their faith in him, thus becoming sheep and then they would easily believe everything else Jesus said.
Wrong. Jesus didn't say "You're not my sheep because you do not believe", but rather, "You don't beleive BECAUSE you are not my sheep."
the requirement has always been and will always be FAITH.
Where does faith come from?
Jesus is the WAY to salvation. our part is FAITH in Jesus.
Again, which one saves us? Our faith, which is our part, or Jesus's sacrifice, which is God's part?
God is always the one who saves us. however, it's up to each one of us, as to whether we choose to enter into that salvation.
:rolleyes: .....

Contridiction. You claim that God saves us, then turn around and state that it's of ourselves; salvation is up to us. Make up your mind.
[salvation is] offered to all, accepted by only a few.
Why? Why do only some accept it?
my deciding to cross the bridge is certainly nothing i can boast about! it's saying that i myself cannot do anything to get to God apart from faith in Christ! it is complete abandonement of any of my own works. it's saying "i cannot get to God on anything of my own so i will throw myself at Jesus' feet and trust in him to save me".
Where do you think that humility came from? Are you and other's who choose to believe some sort of special race that are capable of believing in Christ? Do you guys magically create faith out of thin air, or was it heriditary in that maybe one of your parents had faith?

Who grants you the ability to make the first step across that bridge? Who opened your eyes to the TRUTH?
salvation is not given to any on the basis of one's own good works but through Faith in Jesus and trusting COMPLETELY in him alone. there is no "I" or "me" or self-accomplishment. it's about what Christ has done and the hope one has through him for salvation.
Amen. As long as saving, believing faith comes from God and not man, this statement is free of contridictions and 100% accurate.
Jesus paid the price for ALL.
Then His sacrifice was a failure, since some still burn in hell for their sins.
he is our bridge for anyone and everyone who chooses to cross it.
Only those who He allows to cross will ever do so.
the problem is that choosing that path means you can't trust in any of your own efforts. most people don't like that. there's your hang up and why many people say no to the free gift: pride.
Does not every man posses pride? Are we not all filthy sinners, just alike in the eyes of God? Then why put yourself on such a high pedestal and claim that you have no pride, and that you are able to please God through your obediance, although many men cannot do such a thing. Not to mention the Bible even declares that no man is good or accpetable before our God; that the carnal mind of men are enmity against God and cannot please Him. The bible tells us that the only way a person can ever claim Jesus Christ as their savior is if they have the Holy Spirit.

Since all men are equally sinful, how is it that you are able to come to Christ? Who removed your "blinders"? Who took away your pride?

:think:

geralduk

March 8th, 2004, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by Swordsman

O.D. my friend. You'll notice on these boards those that are from the open theist and Arminians schools of thought lash out at Calvinists who "blatently take the Scriptures out of context." We've been called "sons of Satan", "haters of Christ", among others.....

Doctrines aside, as Christians, we should have the Love of Christ flowing through our thoughts and words.

And honestly, I've been doing some soul-searching about one of the 5 points of Calvinism - Limited Atonement. I'm praying for wisdom on that one. 2 Peter 3:9 came up on another thread, and I've been mulling over it for about a week now.

So, I'm still not sold yet on it. I may be more of a 4-point Calvinist.

Can I make a sugestion?

WHERE did Calvin make ANY sugestion in a SUSTAINED 'argument' EXCLUDING all other scripture?
I would 'argue' that he did NO such thing as to say that God's atonement is limited.
and that what he DID say is that not ALL would be saved!
But carnal men notwishing either to START at the scriptures nor willing to be LED by him in his 'argument' through them.
To either justyfy themselves in thier own rightousness by sayin thier the 'elect'(they claim) or to justyfy themselves by rejecting the truth by an manufactured lie derived from it.

Therefore the 'limited atonement' 'argument is a RED HERRING and a snare of the devil to take us FROM the scriptures and arguing over CALVIN! and not even so much then but as to what MEN have presumed to understand of his words.
and to 'argue' over the extremes of a doctrin that are neither adequately represented or taught.
But which those "SOUND doctrins" which pertain to "THE faith that was once and for all delivered unto the saints"
can be found in the SCRIPTURES even as we are LED by Him "who will LEAD us into all truth" and by thier knowledge are made free and by thier keeping are KEPT free.

So my sugestion is either to read CALVIN himself from START to the finish of his 'argument' and NOT jump to ANY conclusion BUT FOLOW his 'argument ' from it foundation to its conclusion.

and if then the FOUNDATION was in and upon the scriptures and his 'argument' was as he was so led himself by THE Spirit of truth.
Then if you areven so led as well and by him through his 'argument'
you will arrive at the same conclusion as he was.

If you cannot nor are unwilling to.
Then draw NO CONCLUSION from such 'arguments' that so ABUSE HIS!~and misrepresent him.
But rather "search the scriptures".
NOT to discover mens doctrins by which they have by carnal reasoning.
But le the scriptures speak for themselves as the HOLY SPIRIT would have us know.
For if men have so misrepresented him and by thier carnal minds have come to such error how much more then will they of scripture.
For it cannot be said that Calvin had NO argument that could not be folowed.
But i have never YET found any that refute him bring a adequate 'answer' in as thorough a way as he did.
Not that in itself that it is proof either of his error or thier beign right.
But to surfice to say that when they only quote but PART of his 'argument' and argue from a sentence here and another there.
which though on the FACE of it would confirm what they say.
Yet are we as children of God to so LIGHTLY cast OFF such a man who is without doubt on eof the pillars of the reformation which brought us the liberty in which we still now stand.
Not that this too is proof of him being right.
But whadoes the scriptures say about bringing a charge agains an elder?
Not that any can lay a charge againts him now but in the minds of some who are weak it can move them from the truth.
So for the truths sake and the gospel and before God let NO man LIGHTLY and with such LITTLE EVIDENCE so present him as to cast doubt on the truth.
For in truth that is of the devil rather than God even as it was in the begining!

Leave off then the foolish 'arguments' of the varios 'schools' of theology.
But rather seek HIM of which the scriptures speak.
For in truth if we would know HIM in any measure beyond our being BORNagain we would know for a truth how foolish some are.but who profess themselves wise.

geralduk

March 8th, 2004, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Z Man

If Christ died for everyone, then no one would go to hell. Jesus said in John that He came to die for His sheep only. And then He turns around and tells a few Jews that they are not His sheep. That means Christ did not die for them. If there is no "limited atonement", or if Christ did not die for just the elect, but for everyone, then His sacrifice is a failure since some people still go to hell.

This is a FALSE 'argument' based not on the scriptures but by a 'theological 'reasoning' on an interlectual level.

For God so loved the WORLD. that is ALL.
That out of them ALL whosoever would believe would not perish but haveverlasting life.
God is NOT willing that ANY(that is ALL) should perish but that ALL should come to a knowledge of the truth"
You say then that if then that is Gods will then ALL should come to a knowledge of truth?
Not so all.
For by mens obedience to the truth men are saved.
By mens refusal the are not.
THAT too IS GODS will.
"For it has pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to sav them tha beleive"
Just because you may not understand God in a matter does NOT mean we can ignore and dismiss scripture that does not fit OUR understanding.
The scriptures are there so thawe may become SUBJECT to them and be "conformed"to them and renewed in the SPIRIT of our minds.
Not for us to subject the scriptures to OUR reasoning.
The scriptures where the you PARTLY quote the Lord in John rightly shows the Lord came to the ONLY the los sheep of the household of ISREAL.
But we are to go INTO ALL THE WORLD!

Why do you say His death was a failure!!
You are so QUICK to judge God??!!
Surely we should go more slowly in our thinking?
Gods purpose in calvalry was to deal with SIN and REMOVE it. and to reconcile the world unto Himself.
Thus His the SWORD which DIVIDES those who LOV E THE light or DARKNESS.
For the CROSS is the ONLY place where men who by NATURE are SINNERS can come to God who by NATURE is HOLY.
God CANNOT nor HAS not nor DOES not nor EVER will COMPRIMISE WITH sin.
and the CROSS MANIFESTS that.
There is MORE to the WORK that was "FINISHED" THERE THAN MEETS THE EYE.
one thing of it is that NOW men do not go to hell so much because they have sinned but because they have not repented "and believed not on Him who He sent"
Therefore the cross and HIS DEATH was in ALLways the greatest victory imaginable.
So GREAT in fact tha even DEATH will be swallowed up in it in the fullness of times.

We were once ALL 'children of the devil'
More than children of God!
and were ALL bound lost and without hope.
Perhaps there arsome who are not saved simply because the CHURCH is not TELLING IT right!
nor going out into all the world and PREACHING the gospel!
But is rather staying indoors hoping to "make a name for itself"

The GOSPEL is FOR ALL.
He DIED for ALL.
and GOD is CAPABALE of saving all.
and IF all came HE would!!!!!!!

But when HE calls WHO will ANSWER?

" If ANY man HUNGER and THIRST after rightousness,HE SHALL be filled."
The questuion then is are YOU hungry?

God_Is_Truth

March 8th, 2004, 12:41 PM

Moses never heard of the gospel message of Christ. Niether did David, or Noah, or Abraham. So how does thier faith save them if they did not believe in the Jesus we know of? Did Christ die for them? Or did they not need Christ's sacrifice, since their faith was "accounted as righteousness"?

http://www.carm.org/questions/otsaints.htm

Oh yeah? That's not what Jesus taught:

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

new birth is a requirement for seeing the kingdom of God. it is NOT a requirement for placing one's faith in Christ. new birth comes after one does that.

Where did you read that? I've never heard of such a thing. And if that was the case, everyone would be saved. You said it yourself; the requirement for salvation is faith.

everyone has faith in something. some have faith that God does not exist, some have faith in a false God like Allah, and some have faith that it can't be known. everyone has faith in something. the only one who might not have faith would be someone with a severe intelligence handicap.

the requirement is Faith in the TRUE GOD. faith in a false god won't save you one bit because that god can't save you from your sins against the true God.

Again, Moses and David and all those in the Old Testament never heard about Jesus. Were they saved?

http://www.carm.org/questions/otsaints.htm

Wrong. Jesus didn't say "You're not my sheep because you do not believe", but rather, "You don't beleive BECAUSE you are not my sheep."

one won't believe what Jesus is saying until they put their faith in him. so yes, they don't believe because they're not his sheep (haven't put their faith in him).

Where does faith come from?

Romans 10:17
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Again, which one saves us? Our faith, which is our part, or Jesus's sacrifice, which is God's part?

God is the only one who saves us. he decides who to save though based on who has put their faith in him. so, God is our savior. we do not save ourselves. however, it's up to us to put our faith in Christ so that we will be saved by God.

Contridiction. You claim that God saves us, then turn around and state that it's of ourselves; salvation is up to us. Make up your mind.

God saves us through Jesus Christ on the basis of our faith in him.

Why? Why do only some accept it?

pride.

Where do you think that humility came from? Are you and other's who choose to believe some sort of special race that are capable of believing in Christ? Do you guys magically create faith out of thin air, or was it heriditary in that maybe one of your parents had faith?

Who grants you the ability to make the first step across that bridge? Who opened your eyes to the TRUTH?

all have faith. the gospel opens the eyes of the person to the truth. at that point they have the option to either accept it or reject it. many people reject it. they do so out of pride or perhaps some other reason. i can't tell you why because there doesn't necessarily have to be a reason. they have free will and in the end they make a decision from that for whatever reason (assuming there is one) they choose.

Amen. As long as saving, believing faith comes from God and not man, this statement is free of contridictions and 100% accurate.

Romans 10
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Then His sacrifice was a failure, since some still burn in hell for their sins.

only according to your theology.

Only those who He allows to cross will ever do so.

all are allowed to because he died for them all. many simply choose not to.

Does not every man posses pride? Are we not all filthy sinners, just alike in the eyes of God? Then why put yourself on such a high pedestal and claim that you have no pride, and that you are able to please God through your obediance, although many men cannot do such a thing. Not to mention the Bible even declares that no man is good or accpetable before our God; that the carnal mind of men are enmity against God and cannot please Him. The bible tells us that the only way a person can ever claim Jesus Christ as their savior is if they have the Holy Spirit.

i NEVER said i have NO pride. i admit that i still do. but the gospel has taken it down enough for me to see the truth that i'm a sinner. at that point i decided that i wanted and needed to be forgiven. so i got down on my knees and accepted the free gift of forgiveness and salvation that comes through Jesus Christ.

i put myself on no pedestal. faith itself is self-emptying. it denies anything of yourself and puts ALL hope in God and Jesus on the cross. to boast in faith is a contradiction. you'd be boasting that you trust in yourself for nothing and have put all hope in God. faith is self-denying.

by faith, i make myself out to be nothing and consider all others greater than myself. i want them to also hear the gospel and to put their faith in Christ. all are capable after hearing the gospel, but many decide not to for reasons of their own free will.

Since all men are equally sinful, how is it that you are able to come to Christ? Who removed your "blinders"? Who took away your pride?

all men are NOT equally sinful. they are all sinners and thus have sin in their lives but they are NOT equally sinful. some men sin much more than others. the gospel reveals the truth and leads me to faith. but faith is something each person decides for themselves to put in Christ. the gospel condemns, shows the way to forgiveness but in the end, each person is held responsible for putting their faith in Christ. they are ALL CAPABLE of doing this because God has enabled all to do so. many though refuse it for reasons that they choose.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 8th, 2004, 02:24 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

http://www.carm.org/questions/otsaints.htm
If faith is all we need, what was the purpose for Christ?
Romans 10:17
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Yes. We all know that verse. But it still doesn't answer the question, "Where does faith come from". By your answer, are we suppose to assume that faith is produced in a person by the words spoken of by a preacher who is reading out of the Bible? Exactly what does this verse mean?

We know that God has chosen the means of preaching to spread the gospel message, because it destroys the mighty wisdom of men (1Co 1:21). So, in other words, God has chosen the means of preaching to distrubute faith. But since not everyone believes when they hear the gospel message, exactly how does one recieve believing faith? People can't just expect to hear the gospel and "bam", be saved. It doesn't work that way. Where does faith come from?

The Bible gives us a better understanding of this in

1 Corithians 2:8-16
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Faith does not come from man. It comes from God.

Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Man cannot even discern the things of the Spirit; it's foolishness to him. In 1Co 1:21, Paul tells us that the cross is also foolishness to man. Whenever a person hears the gospel message, they do not automatically recieve faith. They will detest and hate God, and continue in disbelief until God saves them. Until He grants them mercy and repentance through saving faith. All of it is God's doing. Man has nothing to do with their salvation. Glory be to God that it is that way!
God is the only one who saves us. he decides who to save though based on who has put their faith in him. so, God is our savior. we do not save ourselves. however, it's up to us to put our faith in Christ so that we will be saved by God.
Contridiction.

"we do not save ourselves. however, it's up to us to put our faith in Christ so that we will be saved..."

Do you not see the confusing statement you just made? Who is our savior? Ourselves, or God?

According to you, it's ourselves, because it's an atrocity to believe that God would save anyone! Oh no, there's no way He'll force everlasting life, granted by His love, on anyone! Far be it from Him! Noooo.. it's not that way at all. But rather, God just sits back and waits for us to save ourselves and somehow conjur up our own saving faith in Him so that we can recieve eternal life. Only after we take the first step will God finally step in our lives and take over, according to you.

And according to the bible, you're wrong.
God saves us through Jesus Christ on the basis of our faith in him.
In other words, salvation is based upon ourselves. Gotcha. Don't agree, but I understand.
all have faith. the gospel opens the eyes of the person to the truth. at that point they have the option to either accept it or reject it.
If someone knows the truth, they can't dis-believe in it anymore. If I know red is red, I can't say red is green and actually believe that, because I know red is red. If anyman knows the TRUTH, they can't and won't reject it. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and they follow Me."
many people reject it. they do so out of pride or perhaps some other reason. i can't tell you why because there doesn't necessarily have to be a reason. they have free will and in the end they make a decision from that for whatever reason (assuming there is one) they choose.
I'll tell you why they reject it. Because it's foolishness to them. Because God has not granted them salvation. Because God has not opened their hearts and their eyes to the TRUTH of His Son Jesus Christ. That's why.

It has nothing to do with freewill. Man really does not have freewill anyways until they're saved. After a person is saved, then and only then do they have the choice to sin. Before salvation, that's all men know and do.
Jesus paid the price for ALL.
Then His sacrifice was a failure, since some still burn in hell for their sins.
only according to your theology.
Only according to Truth! You mean to tell me you believe that Christ's payment on the cross for sins to all does not really mean all? I don't understand? If Christ died for everyone's sins, then why on earth would anyone have to go to hell to pay for them still? That could only mean 2 things:

1) that Christ did not actually die for everyone's sins,
2) or that His death was not 100% efficient; it was a failure.

You must agree with one of these statements. Or do you have a 3rd option?
all men are NOT equally sinful.
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

2 Chronicles 19:7
Now therefore, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes.

You seriously think that there are "better" men out there, or more "sinful" ones? HA! You've got to be kidding me?

God could care less if you're Hitler or Mother Teresa. All have sinned and are worthy of death just the same. I know it's hard for people to be on the same level as Hitler, but that's just the way it is, like it or not. We are all slimeballs, full of sin and evil, and never worthy of God's love, no matter what we've done or haven't done in life. ALL ARE EQUALLY SINFUL! It's biblical. To say otherwise is to indicate that certain men find favor in the sight of God based on their actions.
they are all sinners and thus have sin in their lives but they are NOT equally sinful. some men sin much more than others.
No such thing as "some men sin more than others". You think that matters? If you told one simple lie in your whole life, you'd still go to hell. God could care less if you've killed a million people or stole one candy bar; ALL ARE EQUALLY DISGUSTINGLY EVIL AND SINFUL AND DESERVING OF DEATH!

God_Is_Truth

March 8th, 2004, 04:03 PM

If faith is all we need, what was the purpose for Christ?

Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

Yes. We all know that verse. But it still doesn't answer the question, "Where does faith come from". By your answer, are we suppose to assume that faith is produced in a person by the words spoken of by a preacher who is reading out of the Bible? Exactly what does this verse mean?

everyone already has faith, like i said. however, one can only put it in Jesus once they hear about Jesus. so, faith is able to be put in God by hearing the message of Christ. one can't have saving faith in something they don't know about-that would be absurd.

We know that God has chosen the means of preaching to spread the gospel message, because it destroys the mighty wisdom of men (1Co 1:21). So, in other words, God has chosen the means of preaching to distrubute faith. But since not everyone believes when they hear the gospel message, exactly how does one recieve believing faith? People can't just expect to hear the gospel and "bam", be saved. It doesn't work that way. Where does faith come from?

quite right, it does indeed destroy the wisdom of men because in order to be saved they must have faith in Jesus alone. this is self-emptying and thus deprives them of any of their own wisdom to get them anywhere.

when people hear the gospel, they have two options. they can either accept it and thus put their faith in Christ and repent of their sins; or they can reject and keep their faith in whatever else it was already in and not repent of their sins.

The Bible gives us a better understanding of this in

1 Corithians 2:8-16
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

that passage speaks not of salvation, but of maturing things. it speaks of what wisdom is gained AFTER one is in Christ. THAT is why the unspiritual cannot understand it. It DOES NOT MEAN that the GOSPEL is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.

Faith does not come from man. It comes from God.

you haven't given me any scripture to support this yet.

Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

it is NOT the faith that is the gift. but, it is the SALVATION that is the gift. one cannot earn salvation on the merit of their own works. instead, it comes by grace, through faith, to whoever accepts it.

Man cannot even discern the things of the Spirit; it's foolishness to him. In 1Co 1:21, Paul tells us that the cross is also foolishness to man. Whenever a person hears the gospel message, they do not automatically recieve faith. They will detest and hate God, and continue in disbelief until God saves them. Until He grants them mercy and repentance through saving faith. All of it is God's doing. Man has nothing to do with their salvation. Glory be to God that it is that way!

there you go again with that total depravity stuff :rolleyes:

man cannot discern the mature spiritual things. the gospel is NOT included in this. instead, the gospel is preached to everyone and AFTER they accept it, then they begin to discern the spiritual.

furthermore, if God is completely and utterly the only one who determines every factor of salvation, down to the smallest detail, and if he has decided to only save a few when he is fully capable of saving all people, then by definition, he is NOT GOOD. this is a stumbling point for you calvinists though. i'll repeat myself and maybe you'll see it this time:

IF GOD IS FULLY CAPABLE OF SAVING EVERYONE BUT PURPOSELY AND DELIBERATELY DECIDES NOT TO FOR HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE, THEN HE IS NOT GOOD.

thus, calvinism serves a God who is not good. :chuckle:

Contridiction.

"we do not save ourselves. however, it's up to us to put our faith in Christ so that we will be saved..."

Do you not see the confusing statement you just made? Who is our savior? Ourselves, or God?

i think you are missing what i mean when i say save. when someone is saved, they are forgiven of all their sins, they are justified, declared righteous, made clean and have found favor in the eyes of God. ALL OF THIS IS GOD'S WORK.

now the part that we play is in placing our faith in God SO that he will save us. we each have a part to play BUT IT IS GOD WHO SAVES.

According to you, it's ourselves, because it's an atrocity to believe that God would save anyone! Oh no, there's no way He'll force everlasting life, granted by His love, on anyone! Far be it from Him! Noooo.. it's not that way at all. But rather, God just sits back and waits for us to save ourselves and somehow conjur up our own saving faith in Him so that we can recieve eternal life. Only after we take the first step will God finally step in our lives and take over, according to you.

God saves people. we don't save ourselves. we come to God through faith and then HE SAVES US.

And according to the bible, you're wrong.

lol not the last time i read it :D

In other words, salvation is based upon ourselves. Gotcha. Don't agree, but I understand.

how did you get "salvation is based upon ourselves" from "God saves us "? :confused:

If someone knows the truth, they can't dis-believe in it anymore. If I know red is red, I can't say red is green and actually believe that, because I know red is red. If anyman knows the TRUTH, they can't and won't reject it. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and they follow Me."

but you CAN suppress it. just because you know there is a God, doesn't mean you must follow him. just because you know you've sinned doesn't mean you must repent. just because you've offended God doesn't mean you must ask for forgiveness.

Romans 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness

I'll tell you why they reject it. Because it's foolishness to them. Because God has not granted them salvation. Because God has not opened their hearts and their eyes to the TRUTH of His Son Jesus Christ. That's why.

It has nothing to do with freewill. Man really does not have freewill anyways until they're saved. After a person is saved, then and only then do they have the choice to sin. Before salvation, that's all men know and do.

it has EVERYTHING to do with free will. to deny we have free will is just ignorance.

Only according to Truth! You mean to tell me you believe that Christ's payment on the cross for sins to all does not really mean all? I don't understand? If Christ died for everyone's sins, then why on earth would anyone have to go to hell to pay for them still? That could only mean 2 things:

1) that Christ did not actually die for everyone's sins,
2) or that His death was not 100% efficient; it was a failure.

You must agree with one of these statements. Or do you have a 3rd option?

here is why Christ died on the cross:

Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

God saves anyone who comes to him through faith. he is able to do this BECAUSE he demonstrated the justice they SHOULD have gotten ON JESUS. anyone who does not come to God through faith has not had their sins forgiven and justice will be done upon them instead of what was on Jesus.

it's kinda like this. imagine that we are in a courtroom where God is the judge and prosecutor. he has presented the case, we are guilty, and about to be sentenced. but wait! Jesus has come to our defense. he has agreed to have the sentence taken on him! all we have to do is sign the dotted line and we will be forgiven our sins, justice will be done and life will be good.

now in this illustration, faith is signing the dotted line. that's our part. Jesus is what saves us and the penalty for our sins would be the sentence from the judge-death. many people, no matter that they know the consequences, will still refuse to sign the dotted line. sad, but true.

Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

2 Chronicles 19:7
Now therefore, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes.

You seriously think that there are "better" men out there, or more "sinful" ones? HA! You've got to be kidding me?

Romans says that we are all sinners. James says we're all guilty of breaking the law in it's entirety because to break one is to break them all. and 2 Chronicles says there is no partiality with God. however, nowhere does it say that all men have committed the same amount of sins. yes, James does say we have all broken the law in it's entirety but that does not mean we are all at the same amount of times we have broken it. it just means all of us have broken it all BECAUSE WE BROKE IT ONCE.

a person who rapes 100 women for pleasure is more sinful than someone who steals a candy bar. to deny this is just wrong. ask any jury (even one of all christians) which person is more sinful. 10 times out 10 it will be the person who rapes 100 women. why? because that's how it is.

i do not think there are "better" men out there because "better" implies you are already "good". there is no one good without Jesus. we BOTH agree on that ;) however, you can be more sinful than another person. in other words, to be more sinful just means you've committed more sins. it does not change the status between you and God. you are still seperated no matter how many times you sin. however, the more you sin the more sinful you become. that's just common sense.

God could care less if you're Hitler or Mother Teresa. All have sinned and are worthy of death just the same. I know it's hard for people to be on the same level as Hitler, but that's just the way it is, like it or not. We are all slimeballs, full of sin and evil, and never worthy of God's love, no matter what we've done or haven't done in life. ALL ARE EQUALLY SINFUL! It's biblical. To say otherwise is to indicate that certain men find favor in the sight of God based on their actions.

do you think all people will have the same punishment in hell? i think that some will have it worse than others, because that's what justice does. you don't give a 5 year old who stole a candy bar the same sentence that a man who rapes 100 women gets. that would be massive INJUSTICE. even the bible agrees with this:

Romans 2:6
God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

Revelation 22:12
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.

No such thing as "some men sin more than others". You think that matters? If you told one simple lie in your whole life, you'd still go to hell. God could care less if you've killed a million people or stole one candy bar; ALL ARE EQUALLY DISGUSTINGLY EVIL AND SINFUL AND DESERVING OF DEATH!

no, all are NOT equally evil and sinful. you just think they are because of Total Depravity which i reject.

God bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 8th, 2004, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

that passage (1 Corithians 2:8-16) speaks not of salvation, but of maturing things. it speaks of what wisdom is gained AFTER one is in Christ. THAT is why the unspiritual cannot understand it. It DOES NOT MEAN that the GOSPEL is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.
1Co 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Man in the flesh cannot have faith, then be saved and become spiritual. It's quite the opposite. The Holy Spirit of God must regenerate a man before he is able to beleive and confess that Jesus is Lord.

Still don't believe scripture? Maybe this passage will change your mind:

John 12:36-41
These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE, because Isaiah said again: "GOD has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should UNDERSTAND with their hearts and TURN, So that I should heal them." These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

John 6:35-36, 44
And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

NO ONE can come to Me UNLESS the Father who sent Me draws him...

it is NOT the faith that is the gift. but, it is the SALVATION that is the gift. one cannot earn salvation on the merit of their own works. instead, it comes by grace, through faith, to whoever accepts it.
Salvation is by grace, through faith. All of that is from God, faith included.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Salvation by grace through faith is not of ourselves. Faith is not of ourselves. It's a gift from God. The faith that allows us to believe in His grace is from God. How much simpler could this verse get? If faith was from ourselves, we'd have something to boast in.
there you go again with that total depravity stuff :rolleyes:

man cannot discern the mature spiritual things. the gospel is NOT included in this. instead, the gospel is preached to everyone and AFTER they accept it, then they begin to discern the spiritual.
I already went over this earlier. Man cannot believe in Christ unless the Holy Spirit allows them to believe and is indwelling inside them. Jesus Himself said no one could go to Him unless the Father draws them unto Him; grants them access. That's why Paul told Timothy

2 Timothy 2:25-26
those who are in opposition, may God perhaps grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

This verse alone defeats the argument that unbelievers have freewill. How can they, if they are captive of the devil's will? How can man have freewill when Jesus stated that:

Joh 8:34
Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
IF GOD IS FULLY CAPABLE OF SAVING EVERYONE BUT PURPOSELY AND DELIBERATELY DECIDES NOT TO FOR HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE, THEN HE IS NOT GOOD.
Why? Who are you to declare God unrighteous? You're just a man! Far be it from God that He save anyone, let alone millions of people! And you have the audacity to declare God not good because He does not save some people??? Who are you to declare such a thing? You are literally pointing a finger at God and declaring that if He does save as I believe, and it's all in His hands, that He is totally obligated to save everyone, lest He be a "bad God".

That's despicable. A sinful, evil being such as yourself telling God what is right and what is wrong.

:down::(
God saves people. we don't save ourselves. we come to God through faith and then HE SAVES US.
Thus salvation rest in our hands, not Gods. It's us who saves ourselves. God's waiting on us. He has nothing to do with it.

You don't get on a plane unless you go get a ticket. The only reason you get to fly anywhere is because you took the initiative to get the ticket. You're on the plane because YOU got a ticket yourself.

That's the way you believe about salvation. You're saved because YOU grabbed a ticket. You're going to heaven only because YOU took the first step. Has nothing to do with God.
it has EVERYTHING to do with free will. to deny we have free will is just ignorance.
You calling Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, and many, many other's ignorant?
anyone who does not come to God through faith has not had their sins forgiven and justice will be done upon them instead of what was on Jesus.
Thus, Jesus did not die for them, since they will be paying for their own justice. Exactly what I've been saying!
now in this illustration, faith is signing the dotted line. that's our part. Jesus is what saves us and the penalty for our sins would be the sentence from the judge-death. many people, no matter that they know the consequences, will still refuse to sign the dotted line. sad, but true.
Your arrogance is sickening. If you continue to believe that you are not as "sinful" as some, that you are better, or "less sinful" than other's, you will never fully understand the grace of God.
Romans says that we are all sinners. James says we're all guilty of breaking the law in it's entirety because to break one is to break them all. and 2 Chronicles says there is no partiality with God. however, nowhere does it say that all men have committed the same amount of sins. yes, James does say we have all broken the law in it's entirety but that does not mean we are all at the same amount of times we have broken it. it just means all of us have broken it all BECAUSE WE BROKE IT ONCE.

a person who rapes 100 women for pleasure is more sinful than someone who steals a candy bar. to deny this is just wrong. ask any jury (even one of all christians) which person is more sinful. 10 times out 10 it will be the person who rapes 100 women. why? because that's how it is.

i do not think there are "better" men out there because "better" implies you are already "good". there is no one good without Jesus. we BOTH agree on that ;) however, you can be more sinful than another person. in other words, to be more sinful just means you've committed more sins. it does not change the status between you and God. you are still seperated no matter how many times you sin. however, the more you sin the more sinful you become. that's just common sense.
Before God, you are just as vile and evil as Hitler. He could care less what atrocities you've done, or how many times you've done them; a sin is a sin is a sin, and they all lead to one thing - death.

A lot of people have trouble with "total depravity" because they do not like to look at themselves as "evil". They figure that they are generally "good" people, and that somehow God could find more favor and acceptance in them than someone else who sins more. No one likes to be thought of as the same as Hitler, but that's reality. As soon as you realize this simple truth, your humility will shatter new depths, and the realization of God's grace will explode beyond what you could ever imagine it to be. It will leave you speechless. It did me...
do you think all people will have the same punishment in hell?
Yes. Hell is seperation from God. I believe the only torment people will recieve there is from their own grief from a lack of all that is Life and Love; which is only found in God. Total seperation from Life/God is eternal death. That's hell.
i think that some will have it worse than others, because that's what justice does.
Would someone go to hell for only stealing one candy bar in life, or telling one little white lie? If so, what kind of "small punishment" would they recieve for all eternity?

You can't put sin on a scale. Doesn't matter how "much" or how "little" of it in your life you have; when placed on the scale before God it always equals a big fat DEATH wage. All who do not know Christ will forever be seperated from Him. There are no degrees of "badness".
you don't give a 5 year old who stole a candy bar the same sentence that a man who rapes 100 women gets.
Of course you wouldn't. Not on earth anyways. In real life however, no man is just guilty of one sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Our thoughts are nothing but evil continually. We reak with sin; even our righteousness before God is like a used toilet tissue on the floor of a public bathroom. Mankind is vile and evil and disgusting before the Holy, Almighty, Glorious, Perfect Creator of All.
no, all are NOT equally evil and sinful. you just think they are because of Total Depravity which i reject.
I have tons of biblical evidence to support my position. Where's yours?

God_Is_Truth

March 8th, 2004, 09:28 PM

1Co 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Man in the flesh cannot have faith, then be saved and become spiritual. It's quite the opposite. The Holy Spirit of God must regenerate a man before he is able to beleive and confess that Jesus is Lord.

that is not what that verse is saying. it means that by the power of the holy spirit we declare Jesus to be our Lord. the only point at which this is going to happen is once a person has decided to put their faith in Christ. the holy spirit helps us in this by convicting us of our sins. once that happens, then we are able to accept the gospel, should we choose to, and thus, by the power of the holy spirit we declare Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. you however seem to think that it's ONLY by the Holy Spirit that we can declare it when it's a both action. through him, we can declare Jesus as Lord.

Still don't believe scripture? Maybe this passage will change your mind:

John 12:36-41
These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE, because Isaiah said again: "GOD has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should UNDERSTAND with their hearts and TURN, So that I should heal them." These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

this was a very specific passage intended towards the people who were in power and in essence got him crucified. IT IS NOT intended for every single believer in all of time. that would be misapplying it.

John 6:35-36, 44
And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

NO ONE can come to Me UNLESS the Father who sent Me draws him...

that's simply explaining God's part in salvation. God draws people to himself. this is certainly not the only thing that occurs to bring a person to salvation. so stop jumping to conclusions. also:

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

thus, by YOUR reasonsing, all men should be saved! i'll bet smaller would become your best friend if you said that :chuckle:

Salvation is by grace, through faith. All of that is from God, faith included.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Salvation by grace through faith is not of ourselves. Faith is not of ourselves. It's a gift from God. The faith that allows us to believe in His grace is from God. How much simpler could this verse get? If faith was from ourselves, we'd have something to boast in.

no, it does not say that the faith is from God. Romans 10:17 CLEARLY says faith comes BY HEARING. it cannot come BOTH by hearing and as a gift from God. that's like saying my toy came from both from a friend as a gift and as something i found on the street. it CAN'T be both. thus, your interpretation is incorrect.

I already went over this earlier. Man cannot believe in Christ unless the Holy Spirit allows them to believe and is indwelling inside them. Jesus Himself said no one could go to Him unless the Father draws them unto Him; grants them access. That's why Paul told Timothy

2 Timothy 2:25-26
those who are in opposition, may God perhaps grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

This verse alone defeats the argument that unbelievers have freewill. How can they, if they are captive of the devil's will? How can man have freewill when Jesus stated that:

Joh 8:34
Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

grant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grnt)
tr.v. grant·ed, grant·ing, grants
To consent to the fulfillment of: grant a request.
To accord as a favor, prerogative, or privilege: granted the franchise to all citizens.

To bestow; confer: grant aid.
To transfer (property) by a deed.
To concede; acknowledge: I grant the genius of your plan, but you still will not find backers.

grant means to allow. God allows them to repent. it does not mean he supernaturaly empowers them to repent because they could not before. as for being a slave to sin, that's about the sinful nature and how we desire for things of it. but now, through Christ, we are a new creation and put the sinful nature to death.

Why? Who are you to declare God unrighteous? You're just a man! Far be it from God that He save anyone, let alone millions of people! And you have the audacity to declare God not good because He does not save some people??? Who are you to declare such a thing? You are literally pointing a finger at God and declaring that if He does save as I believe, and it's all in His hands, that He is totally obligated to save everyone, lest He be a "bad God".

That's despicable. A sinful, evil being such as yourself telling God what is right and what is wrong.

everything God does is good. it's good because he is good. thus, anything that is not good is something that God will not do. since what i stated is not good, it's clear that God will not do it. but you seem to uphold the sovereignty of God above his goodness so it doesn't really matter to you if God does something that is clearly not good :doh:

Thus salvation rest in our hands, not Gods. It's us who saves ourselves. God's waiting on us. He has nothing to do with it.

You don't get on a plane unless you go get a ticket. The only reason you get to fly anywhere is because you took the initiative to get the ticket. You're on the plane because YOU got a ticket yourself.

That's the way you believe about salvation. You're saved because YOU grabbed a ticket. You're going to heaven only because YOU took the first step. Has nothing to do with God.

God is the only one who saves. but, the decision of whether or not to be saved is in the hands of anyone who has heard the gospel.

as for your analogy, God is handing out tickets to whoever wants on the plane. he has enough for everyone and it's free for all. i'm saved because he offered me a ticket and i decided to take it (faith). God took the first step, not me. it has EVERYTHING to do with God.

You calling Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, and many, many other's ignorant?

no, they had free will too :D

Thus, Jesus did not die for them, since they will be paying for their own justice. Exactly what I've been saying!

Jesus paid their price, but it must be combined with faith. this is why the bible says we are saved by "faith in Jesus Christ". he alone saves us through our faith. this isn't hard stuff. you just don't see it cause you read everything with a calvinistic lens.

Your arrogance is sickening. If you continue to believe that you are not as "sinful" as some, that you are better, or "less sinful" than other's, you will never fully understand the grace of God.

arrogance? by stating that faith is SELF EMPTYING i am arrogant? what part of "Self Emptying" is arrogant? faith means trusting in nothing of yourself. it's the ones without faith in God who are arrogant because they are relying on their own works to save them.

as for grace, i find it hilarious that calvinists try to say God is MORE gracious in unconditionally (in other words, for absolutely no reason whatsoever) predestining (before they were born and probably from all eternity) only a FEW people to heaven when he's perfectly capable of doing this to all!

and this is where the funniest part of calvinism comes in. because of unconditional election (believers are unconditionally predestined to heaven from eternity past), there also exists unconditional reprobation. reprobation is damnation, the sentencing to hell. in other words, everyone not unconditionally elected is unconditionally reprobated! in other words, they are unconditionally (for absolutely no reason whatosever, if there was any reason it'd be a condition) predestined (destined before they were ever born and probably before eternity) to hell!

simply put:

CALVINISM SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL, NOT FOR THEIR SINS, BUT FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON!

wow, that sounds like a God of love :doh:

Before God, you are just as vile and evil as Hitler. He could care less what atrocities you've done, or how many times you've done them; a sin is a sin is a sin, and they all lead to one thing - death.

now come on. not all sins are alike. look at the justice system. different crimes, different penalties. i see this as the same for hell. every crime gets at least the penalty of eternal seperation from God, but i think that if you were more sinful in this life then you will have more torment in the afterlife. that is justice.

A lot of people have trouble with "total depravity" because they do not like to look at themselves as "evil". They figure that they are generally "good" people, and that somehow God could find more favor and acceptance in them than someone else who sins more. No one likes to be thought of as the same as Hitler, but that's reality. As soon as you realize this simple truth, your humility will shatter new depths, and the realization of God's grace will explode beyond what you could ever imagine it to be. It will leave you speechless. It did me...

there are different levels of evil, that's what i'm saying. i agree that we are all evil but to different degrees. that's what you don't like. you like to put all men into one group-evil-with the same measure of punishment despite the difference in crimes. do you seriously believe that Hilter should suffer exactly the same fate as the boy who lied one time to his mom about if he'd taken a cookie from the cookie jar? :nono: :down:

as for grace, would that be the same grace that unconditionally predestines people to hell for no good reason? :p

Yes. Hell is seperation from God. I believe the only torment people will recieve there is from their own grief from a lack of all that is Life and Love; which is only found in God. Total seperation from Life/God is eternal death. That's hell.

hell is personal. i believe it's a personal torment that's unique to each person based on the degree of the sins they committed. i can't say that this is what hell is for sure or from the bible, but that's how i imagine it and i haven't seen any bible verse that states otherwise. perhaps you know of one?

Would someone go to hell for only stealing one candy bar in life, or telling one little white lie? If so, what kind of "small punishment" would they recieve for all eternity?

You can't put sin on a scale. Doesn't matter how "much" or how "little" of it in your life you have; when placed on the scale before God it always equals a big fat DEATH wage. All who do not know Christ will forever be seperated from Him. There are no degrees of "badness".

once you sin, you're guilty of hell. that much we agree on. however, where does the bible say that no matter how much you sin you still get the same penalty?

Of course you wouldn't. Not on earth anyways. In real life however, no man is just guilty of one sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Our thoughts are nothing but evil continually. We reak with sin; even our righteousness before God is like a used toilet tissue on the floor of a public bathroom. Mankind is vile and evil and disgusting before the Holy, Almighty, Glorious, Perfect Creator of All.

i wouldn't because it's unjust. and since God is just, i fail to see why he would either.

I have tons of biblical evidence to support my position. Where's yours?

you have verses that you twist to use to fit your preconceived notion of total depravity. my support is the rest of the bible, specifically where it calls on ALL men to repent and seek God-an injust and cruel thing to do if it's impossible for them to do.

God Bless You.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 9th, 2004, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

that is not what that verse is saying. it means that by the power of the holy spirit we declare Jesus to be our Lord. the only point at which this is going to happen is once a person has decided to put their faith in Christ. the holy spirit helps us in this by convicting us of our sins. once that happens, then we are able to accept the gospel, should we choose to, and thus, by the power of the holy spirit we declare Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. you however seem to think that it's ONLY by the Holy Spirit that we can declare it when it's a both action. through him, we can declare Jesus as Lord.
The verse says specifically that no one can declare Jesus Lord UNLESS it's by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit must possess a man to make such a comment, because this verse tells us so. No man in their carnal mind can make such a statement. Paul tells us in Romans 8 that the carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot please Him. Repentance pleases God, thus there is no possible way that man in their carnal mind can ever do such a thing. They don't desire too. It must take a change of heart and mind, from carnal to spiritual, before man ever accepts and declares Christ as King. Does everyone do this? Of course not, thus the Holy Spirit seems to be selective in who He chooses to regenerate.

Jesus said in John:

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

In other words, like the wind, the Holy Spirit "blows" where HE wishes. It's not a choice by man, but rather a choice by God who does and does not receive salvation.
John 12:36-41
These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE, because Isaiah said again: "GOD has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should UNDERSTAND with their hearts and TURN, So that I should heal them." These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
this was a very specific passage intended towards the people who were in power and in essence got him crucified. IT IS NOT intended for every single believer in all of time. that would be misapplying it.
The point still stands that they did not believe BECAUSE God would not allow them to. That's why people today do not believe; God has not granted them repentance. He has not opened their eyes or their hearts to His truth. He has His reasons.

In those days, God did not allow them to believe because He knew His Son had to die to bring salvation to many. The end result is to ultimately glorify Himself. Same reasons today that He does not allow some to believe - to glorify Himself.

You said you did not understand why some people do not accept Christ after hearing the message. Well, this passage answers that question for you.
John 6:35-36, 44
And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

NO ONE can come to Me UNLESS the Father who sent Me draws him...
that's simply explaining God's part in salvation. God draws people to himself. this is certainly not the only thing that occurs to bring a person to salvation. so stop jumping to conclusions.
Ahhh.. but did you read the rest of the passage? Christ continues with:

John 6:36, 44
All that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Therefore, Christ was talking about salvation. Those whom God does draw to Christ WILL go to Him. Jesus didn't say, "Well, they might come to me". Nope; He specifically says that no one can come to Him UNLESS God the Father allows them too, and those who He draws WILL go to Him, and Christ will not cast them out; He WILL raise them up at the last day.
also:

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

thus, by YOUR reasonsing, all men should be saved! i'll bet smaller would become your best friend if you said that :chuckle:
I just proved through scripture that those whom God draws to Christ WILL go to Him (irresistable grace), and Jesus said He would raise them up on the last day. Since we agree that not all are saved, then this verse must not be implying everyone on the planet, from past to present. All simply means Jews and Gentiles alike. As Jesus said in John 10:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

I believe that Christ died for anyone, not everyone.
no, it does not say that the faith is from God. Romans 10:17 CLEARLY says faith comes BY HEARING. it cannot come BOTH by hearing and as a gift from God. that's like saying my toy came from both from a friend as a gift and as something i found on the street. it CAN'T be both. thus, your interpretation is incorrect.
No it's not. God has chosen the means of giving His free gift through the hearing of the gospel message. It's like if your friend was to choose to give you your gift by placing it on the street.

God doesn't just spontaneously save people; He chose to do it through the hearing and preaching of the gospel message. All who hear the gospel message have seeds planted within their souls, but nothing will grow unless God gives it increase. Just as Paul stated:

1Co 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
grant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grnt)
tr.v. grant·ed, grant·ing, grants
To consent to the fulfillment of: grant a request.
To accord as a favor, prerogative, or privilege: granted the franchise to all citizens.

To bestow; confer: grant aid.
To transfer (property) by a deed.
To concede; acknowledge: I grant the genius of your plan, but you still will not find backers.

grant means to allow. God allows them to repent. it does not mean he supernaturaly empowers them to repent because they could not before.
The verse still stands: UNLESS God allows people to repent, they never will on their own. It's not up to us whether we recieve salvation or not; it's up to God. This verse proves that.
as for being a slave to sin, that's about the sinful nature and how we desire for things of it. but now, through Christ, we are a new creation and put the sinful nature to death.
Of course; because we're saved! But before Christ saved us, we had no freewill. We were slaves to sin and the devil's will. People who are saved only sin by a willful choice. Non-believer's do not have that option. They are slaves to sin.
everything God does is good. it's good because he is good. thus, anything that is not good is something that God will not do.
God murdered a whole city, killed thousands of babies, even David's son, wiped out nearly the whole population of man, and even killed His own Son. Are these things "good"?

Because God did them for a righteous purpose, of course they are good. But do you think it would be right for a man to murder nearly all of mankind? Of course not. What we consider "good" and "bad" is not necessarily the same rules God must follow. Whatever He does is for good. That includes saving or not saving whom He wishes.

Romans 9:15-16
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
God is the only one who saves. but, the decision of whether or not to be saved is in the hands of anyone who has heard the gospel.
I already presented scripture that proves that no man can be saved unless God grants them permission and give them His Holy Spirit; unless God draws them to Christ in whom will never cast them out and will raise them up on the last day. Only by the Spirit can man declare Jesus as Lord.
no, they had free will too :D
Only because they were believers.
Jesus paid their price, but it must be combined with faith.
Thus salvation is not all God. We must add to it, according to you.
arrogance? by stating that faith is SELF EMPTYING i am arrogant?
No. I underlined what I was referring to. Because you said it was sad how other's do not accept the gospel message.

It's arragont to believe that you were able to accept what they cannot, for their own inabilitating reasons which you claim to not posses because you believed.
as for grace, i find it hilarious that calvinists try to say God is MORE gracious in unconditionally (in other words, for absolutely no reason whatsoever) predestining (before they were born and probably from all eternity) only a FEW people to heaven when he's perfectly capable of doing this to all!

and this is where the funniest part of calvinism comes in. because of unconditional election (believers are unconditionally predestined to heaven from eternity past), there also exists unconditional reprobation. reprobation is damnation, the sentencing to hell. in other words, everyone not unconditionally elected is unconditionally reprobated! in other words, they are unconditionally (for absolutely no reason whatosever, if there was any reason it'd be a condition) predestined (destined before they were ever born and probably before eternity) to hell!

simply put:

CALVINISM SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL, NOT FOR THEIR SINS, BUT FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON!

wow, that sounds like a God of love :doh:
You speak ingnorance of my beliefs when you make such an irrational statement. People go to hell to pay for their sins since Christ did not pay for them on the cross. And they deserve that. All men do. Christ didn't have to die for anyone. God's not mean for not saving them; on the contrary, it can be argued that He is wrong for saving people period.
now come on. not all sins are alike. look at the justice system. different crimes, different penalties.
To us they seem different, but before God all men are equally sinful. No one can find "more favor" in His sight based on their "good works". All sin and have fallen short of His glory. We all have missed the mark.
there are different levels of evil, that's what i'm saying. i agree that we are all evil but to different degrees. that's what you don't like. you like to put all men into one group-evil-with the same measure of punishment despite the difference in crimes. do you seriously believe that Hilter should suffer exactly the same fate as the boy who lied one time to his mom about if he'd taken a cookie from the cookie jar? :nono: :down:
No person is guilty of only one sin. I don't like your "theory" that there are varying degrees of evil because it implies that there must also be varying degrees of "goodness", obvously. If you are less evil than someone who commits more sin, then you are better than they. I hate that notion. No man is better than any other man before the eyes of God. No one can find favor in His eyes through their works. It's contrary to scripture, and it nulls/takes away from what Christ did on the cross. It lessens grace, and that's why I hate any doctrine that does not agree with "total depravity".
as for grace, would that be the same grace that unconditionally predestines people to hell for no good reason? :p
God has His reasons. It's ironic how you, a vile and disgustingly evil human can boldly declare what is righteous for God to do and what is not. He does whatever He pleases, and your thoughts do not matter. His plans will not be thwarted. May all things be done to glorify God, even if it means that some must be destroyed. It's His "garden"; can He not do with it what He pleases?
you have verses that you twist to use to fit your preconceived notion of total depravity. my support is the rest of the bible, specifically where it calls on ALL men to repent and seek God-an injust and cruel thing to do if it's impossible for them to do.
No one has twisted scripture; you know that. To declare that I am obviously and blatantly trying to twist scripture to fit some sort of preconceived notion of mine - to fit my agenda - is a flat out lie. I only read and interpret scripture the way I see it. May it glorify God in all things.

I present the scriptures, but lately, all I've seen you do is say, "Well, that's not what it really means...", without presenting any kind of evidence that could suggest otherwise. I could care less how you feel about it; prove to me scripturally that God has left salvation in the hands of man.

God_Is_Truth

March 9th, 2004, 03:41 PM

The verse says specifically that no one can declare Jesus Lord UNLESS it's by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit must possess a man to make such a comment, because this verse tells us so. No man in their carnal mind can make such a statement. Paul tells us in Romans 8 that the carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot please Him. Repentance pleases God, thus there is no possible way that man in their carnal mind can ever do such a thing. They don't desire too. It must take a change of heart and mind, from carnal to spiritual, before man ever accepts and declares Christ as King. Does everyone do this? Of course not, thus the Holy Spirit seems to be selective in who He chooses to regenerate.

are you suggesting that the holy spirit takes possession of a person so that they lose control whenever they say Jesus is Lord? but i thought you said they had free will? can't have it both ways, better reinterpret one of them.

it does say that the carnal MIND is emnity to God. however, does it say that the man can't change his mind and repent of the carnal mind he had? no, it doesn't. and that's exactly what each man is fully capable of doing: repenting.

Jesus said in John:

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

In other words, like the wind, the Holy Spirit "blows" where HE wishes. It's not a choice by man, but rather a choice by God who does and does not receive salvation.

wherever be blows is about jews and gentiles. he is not obligated to just one group, but blows wherever he wishes. this does not NECESSARILY mean he goes to individual persons and regenerates them and thus they are saved. that would be reading far too much into that passage of scripture than it says.

The point still stands that they did not believe BECAUSE God would not allow them to. That's why people today do not believe; God has not granted them repentance. He has not opened their eyes or their hearts to His truth. He has His reasons.

God blinded them from seeing what was truly there UNTIL everything had been accomplished. THEN they saw what was really there. this is not a universal doctrine of all unbelievers.

In those days, God did not allow them to believe because He knew His Son had to die to bring salvation to many. The end result is to ultimately glorify Himself. Same reasons today that He does not allow some to believe - to glorify Himself.

God does not allow some to believe in order to glorify himself? PLEASE! that is so contradictory to the bible that it makes my ears hurt! if i EVER heard a preacher say something to that effect i would probably switch churches.

You said you did not understand why some people do not accept Christ after hearing the message. Well, this passage answers that question for you.

they don't accept it because they choose not to. no reason is required or necessary. they simply choose no too. there usually is a reason, but it varies from person to person. could be a bad experience growing up, friend gone wrong with religion. could be anything.

Ahhh.. but did you read the rest of the passage? Christ continues with:

John 6:36, 44
All that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Therefore, Christ was talking about salvation. Those whom God does draw to Christ WILL go to Him. Jesus didn't say, "Well, they might come to me". Nope; He specifically says that no one can come to Him UNLESS God the Father allows them too, and those who He draws WILL go to Him, and Christ will not cast them out; He WILL raise them up at the last day.

all that the father GIVES. who will the father give? all those who put their faith in God! all those who repent of their sins and wish to be forgiven, those are who the father will give to the Son. but before the father gives them to the Son, he draws them.

I just proved through scripture that those whom God draws to Christ WILL go to Him (irresistable grace), and Jesus said He would raise them up on the last day. Since we agree that not all are saved, then this verse must not be implying everyone on the planet, from past to present. All simply means Jews and Gentiles alike. As Jesus said in John 10:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

I believe that Christ died for anyone, not everyone.

that is NOT irresistible grace as i have just shown. Jesus is drawing all (really all, not just some of each group, but ALL) men to himself through the father.

No it's not. God has chosen the means of giving His free gift through the hearing of the gospel message. It's like if your friend was to choose to give you your gift by placing it on the street.

God doesn't just spontaneously save people; He chose to do it through the hearing and preaching of the gospel message. All who hear the gospel message have seeds planted within their souls, but nothing will grow unless God gives it increase. Just as Paul stated:

1Co 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.

look, mormons have faith. jehovas witnesses have faith. muslims have faith. if faith comes from God then they also got their faith from God. are you going to say that God now gives false faith to people? does he do THAT for his glory as well? :nono:

The verse still stands: UNLESS God allows people to repent, they never will on their own. It's not up to us whether we recieve salvation or not; it's up to God. This verse proves that.

do you really believe that God won't let someone repent if they want to? come on! would a God of love stop someone from repenting of their sins! get real! it's up to us to repent while God is still allowing us to because once we die, God no longer will grant us repentence.

Of course; because we're saved! But before Christ saved us, we had no freewill. We were slaves to sin and the devil's will. People who are saved only sin by a willful choice. Non-believer's do not have that option. They are slaves to sin.

do slaves have free will? certainly! can slaves not run away from their masters to someone who will protect them? surely they can! being a slave to someone means that you serve them and do their work for them. it DOES NOT mean that one doesn't have free will.

God murdered a whole city, killed thousands of babies, even David's son, wiped out nearly the whole population of man, and even killed His own Son. Are these things "good"?

if they were a form of judgement upon a city then it was justice and justice is good, so yes, they were good.

Because God did them for a righteous purpose, of course they are good. But do you think it would be right for a man to murder nearly all of mankind? Of course not. What we consider "good" and "bad" is not necessarily the same rules God must follow. Whatever He does is for good. That includes saving or not saving whom He wishes.

wow, so you believe that not saving everyone is a GOOD thing? ok, let's make sure i got this. you, Z Man are saying:

GOD NOT SAVING EVERYONE, BECAUSE HE DECIDES NOT TO, IS A GOOD THING

that's really sad Z Man. God wants EVERYONE to be saved because being saved is a good thing. is it good to let someone drown when you are perfectly capable of saving them and they want to be saved? NO! is it good to let someone stand next to a bomb that is about to blow up when you are fully capable of defusing it and they want you to? NO!

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth

the bible says God wants all men to be saved. it doesn't say men from all groups i.e. jews and gentiles, but ALL MEN. ALL MEN MEANS ALL MEN without exception. thus, your statement that God only wishes to save a few cannot be correct.

Romans 9:15-16
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

God has the right to make the basis of salvation on faith and not of works. he is sovereign and retains that right. THAT'S the context of the passage. here's a link that explains this in full.

http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/Custom/4/Documents/beltstudies.htm

I already presented scripture that proves that no man can be saved unless God grants them permission and give them His Holy Spirit; unless God draws them to Christ in whom will never cast them out and will raise them up on the last day. Only by the Spirit can man declare Jesus as Lord.

you made it sound like a believe become possessed by the Spirit each time he or she says it. one may certainly come to Christ, ask for forgiveness of sins, and then, having his sins forgiven, declare Jesus as Lord through the Holy Spirit. it is not necessary to be taken control of by the Spirit so as to lose control every time one declares Jesus as Lord.

Thus salvation is not all God. We must add to it, according to you.

it is God who saves us. who is saved is determined by each of us individually. there IS a difference. look a little closer and you might just see it.

No. I underlined what I was referring to. Because you said it was sad how other's do not accept the gospel message.

It's arragont to believe that you were able to accept what they cannot, for their own inabilitating reasons which you claim to not posses because you believed.

it's not arrogant at all BECAUSE they are ALL CAPABLE of accepting it, unlike your total depravity doctrine. since they are all capable of doing this, i have ZERO room to brag or boast. if indeed i were capable and they were not, then yes, i could boast. but that's NOT the case.

You speak ingnorance of my beliefs when you make such an irrational statement. People go to hell to pay for their sins since Christ did not pay for them on the cross. And they deserve that. All men do. Christ didn't have to die for anyone. God's not mean for not saving them; on the contrary, it can be argued that He is wrong for saving people period.

lol all i did was show the logical follow up of your doctrine! here, i'll try it again.

if one believes in unconditional election then one must also believe in uncondition reprobation. you CANNOT have one without the other. without reprobation election CANNOT stand. John Calvin affirmed this in his own writings.

Many indeed (thinking to excuse God) own election, and yet deny reprobation; but this is quite silly and childish. For without reprobation, election itself cannot stand; whom God passes by, those he reprobates. It is one and the same thing (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 23, section 1).

because this reprobation is unconditional, there can be ABSOLULTEY NO REASON FOR IT. if there was ANY reason for it, it'd be a condition. thus, people are sent for hell for NO reason whatsoever. they cannot be sent there for their sins because that'd be a condition.

so, in summary, your doctrine of calvinism clearly states:

EVERYONE WHO GOES TO HELL GOES THERE NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR SINS, BUT BECAUSE THEY WERE UNCONDITIONALLY PREDESTINED THERE

you can't get around it Z Man, unless you wish to deny your own unconditional election.

To us they seem different, but before God all men are equally sinful. No one can find "more favor" in His sight based on their "good works". All sin and have fallen short of His glory. We all have missed the mark.

i'm not saying that ANY men are good in God's sight. but why can't there be varying degrees of evil? some are less evil and some are more evil, but we're all evil to at least some extent.

No person is guilty of only one sin. I don't like your "theory" that there are varying degrees of evil because it implies that there must also be varying degrees of "goodness", obvously. If you are less evil than someone who commits more sin, then you are better than they. I hate that notion. No man is better than any other man before the eyes of God. No one can find favor in His eyes through their works. It's contrary to scripture, and it nulls/takes away from what Christ did on the cross. It lessens grace, and that's why I hate any doctrine that does not agree with "total depravity".

why can't there be varying degrees of goodness among those who are saved? i'd readily say that there are plenty of people more "good" than me. not willing to state that is saying "there is no one better or worse than me" and "i'm as good as everyone else". kinda selfish comments aren't they?

God has His reasons. It's ironic how you, a vile and disgustingly evil human can boldly declare what is righteous for God to do and what is not. He does whatever He pleases, and your thoughts do not matter. His plans will not be thwarted. May all things be done to glorify God, even if it means that some must be destroyed. It's His "garden"; can He not do with it what He pleases?

you just denied this earlier! are you now affirming it? i agree that all things should be done to the glory of God but i don't think that this is something that God would do just for the sake of his glory. do you really believe that God would unconditionally send someone to hell, someone who is made in his image, an actual human being, JUST to bring himself glory? come on.....

No one has twisted scripture; you know that. To declare that I am obviously and blatantly trying to twist scripture to fit some sort of preconceived notion of mine - to fit my agenda - is a flat out lie. I only read and interpret scripture the way I see it. May it glorify God in all things.

I present the scriptures, but lately, all I've seen you do is say, "Well, that's not what it really means...", without presenting any kind of evidence that could suggest otherwise. I could care less how you feel about it; prove to me scripturally that God has left salvation in the hands of man.

twist was a bad word. i should have said you "read more into the verses than they say". that is more accurate of what i meant to say. i apologize for the misword.

it just seems like every scripture you give has a clear meaning and then on top of that you seem to place a more deep understanding on behalf of your theology that makes the verse seem wrong and out of place.

theology should not have to do this to scripture if scripture so clearly states it. :down:

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Swordsman

March 10th, 2004, 12:27 PM

I have to say: I am very impressed in how Z Man and God_Is_Truth are having this dialogue without all the name-calling and bashing.

I can distinctly tell the difference in these two's beliefs. Z Man fully believes that salvation is something not attained by man by given out of the wondrous grace of God our Father. God_Is_Truth, although believing that Christ's blood cleanses him from sin, believes that there is something on man's part to get faith or keep his salvation.

That's the problem with modern Christianity these days. Most people don't understand what God's sovereign grace really means. ....not of works, lest any man should boast.

Salvation is the gift from God, faith is the fruit from receiving this gift. So, essentially, both salvation and faith are created by God.

God_Is_Truth

March 10th, 2004, 02:51 PM

I have to say: I am very impressed in how Z Man and God_Is_Truth are having this dialogue without all the name-calling and bashing.

as much as me and Z Man may disagree and bash one anothers theology :D we are still brothers in the Lord and thus to bash him would be like bashing God.

the important thing is that we both love the Lord and want to see people come to know him. :thumb:

I can distinctly tell the difference in these two's beliefs. Z Man fully believes that salvation is something not attained by man by given out of the wondrous grace of God our Father. God_Is_Truth, although believing that Christ's blood cleanses him from sin, believes that there is something on man's part to get faith or keep his salvation.

Z Man believes that salvation is forced upon individuals against their own will by God's irresistible grace and that man plays absolutely no role whatosever in their salvation. he believes that they either were unconditionally predestined to heaven or unconditionally predestined to hell.

i believe that Christ died for all that all who put their faith in him will be saved. we make the choice to either accept the free gift of God's salvation or reject it, but it is God who saves us through Jesus Christ.

That's the problem with modern Christianity these days. Most people don't understand what God's sovereign grace really means. ....not of works, lest any man should boast.

does grace unconditionally predestine people to hell? i didn't think so either.

Salvation is the gift from God, faith is the fruit from receiving this gift. So, essentially, both salvation and faith are created by God.

i agree that salvation is a gift. but freely given, freely received. God won't force anyone to accept the free gift of salvation because love doesn't force. love offers choice and since God is love, he offers us a choice to be with Him or not.

faith comes by hearing the message. Romans 10:17 says so. basically it means that one can't have faith in Jesus when one hasn't heard of Jesus. it is only after the gospel has been preached that faith can be put in Jesus which is why faith comes by hearing.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 10th, 2004, 06:40 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

as much as me and Z Man may disagree and bash one anothers theology :D we are still brothers in the Lord and thus to bash him would be like bashing God.

the important thing is that we both love the Lord and want to see people come to know him. :thumb:
Amen.

I don't mind debating with God_Is_Truth, because for one, I still have hope that he'll come around some day and understand... ;)

But seriously, God_Is_Truth is mature about the way he debates, and he doesn't ignorantly "condem" like some christians, much like 1 who has posted on this thread before and believes that his WAY is the only correct way. :rolleyes:
Z Man believes that salvation is forced upon individuals against their own will by God's irresistible grace...
No I don't! In fact, it's a contridiction to believe such a thing.
Originally by John Piper

Irresistible grace refers to the sovereign work of God to overcome the rebellion of our heart and bring us to faith in Christ so that we can be saved. If our doctrine of total depravity is true, there can be no salvation without the reality of irresistible grace. If we are dead in our sins, totally unable to submit to God, then we will never believe in Christ unless God overcomes our rebellion.

Someone may say, "Yes, the Holy Spirit must draw us to God, but we can use our freedom to resist or accept that drawing." Our answer is: except for the continual exertion of saving grace, we will always use our freedom to resist God. That is what it means to be "unable to submit to God." If a person becomes humble enough to submit to God it is because God has given that person a new, humble nature. If a person remains too hard hearted and proud to submit to God, it is because that person has not been given such a willing spirit.

In 2 Timothy 2:24-25 and John 6:65, repentance is called a gift of God. Notice, he is not saying merely that salvation is a gift of God. He is saying that the prerequisites of salvation are also a gift. When a person hears a preacher call for repentance he can resist that call. But if God gives him repentance he cannot resist because the gift is the removal of resistance. Not being willing to repent is the same as resisting the Holy Spirit. So if God gives repentance it is the same as taking away the resistance. This is why we call this work of God "irresistible grace".

NOTE: It should be obvious from this that irresistible grace never implies that God forces us to believe against our will. That would even be a contradiction in terms. On the contrary, irresistible grace is compatible with preaching and witnessing that tries to persuade people to do what is reasonable and what will accord with their best interests.
Z Man believes...that man plays absolutely no role whatosever in their salvation. he believes that they either were unconditionally predestined to heaven or unconditionally predestined to hell.
All men are destined to hell, unless God saves you. We're like starfish that have washed up on the beach. There are millions of us just baking in the sun, soon to be doomed, and there is nothing we can do about it. The only way we can recieve salvation is if God comes along, picks us up, and tosses us into the ocean.

You make it sound like all men are destined to heaven, and God picks a few out and says, "Ok, you are all going to hell because I feel like sending you there." That's not the case. It's the exact opposite.
i believe that Christ died for all that all who put their faith in him will be saved. we make the choice to either accept the free gift of God's salvation or reject it, but it is God who saves us through Jesus Christ.
Christ died for His sheep; all those who believe. If He spilt His blood to cover the sins of anyone who is in Hell, then His blood was spilt in vain, since that person is paying for their own sins even though Christ died for them. See the contridiction here? If you believe Christ died for everyone, you either believe in universalism, or that Christ died in vain for all those who go to hell - His spilt blood wasn't powerful enough to save them.
does grace unconditionally predestine people to hell? i didn't think so either.
No one believes that. You are twisting the truth I speak and believe. It's His grace that saves, not damns. Christ died to save, not condemn.
i agree that salvation is a gift. but freely given, freely received. God won't force anyone to accept the free gift of salvation because love doesn't force. love offers choice and since God is love, he offers us a choice to be with Him or not.
Considering that man has a carnal mind that is enmity against God, and is uncapable of pleasing Him, or succombing to those things that are Spiritual, it would be cruel of God to expect us to choose Him freely of our own will. No man can! No man desires to! We use our will to resist God continually! It's His grace that takes that resistant, rebellious will from us, so that in turn our eyes and mind are open to the things He has freely given us through His Son Jesus Christ on the cross. The TRUTH becomes clear, and we run to God to fill our empty souls with His salvation.

No sooner is the soul quickened, than it at once discovers its lost estate - its horrified threat - looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flies to him and reposes in him.
-C.H. Spurgeon
faith comes by hearing the message. Romans 10:17 says so. basically it means that one can't have faith in Jesus when one hasn't heard of Jesus. it is only after the gospel has been preached that faith can be put in Jesus which is why faith comes by hearing.
1Co 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but GOD gave the increase.

You can preach to someone all day long, but unless God grants them faith and gives increase to your seed, they will never believe.

God_Is_Truth

March 10th, 2004, 10:15 PM

Amen.

I don't mind debating with God_Is_Truth, because for one, I still have hope that he'll come around some day and understand...

But seriously, God_Is_Truth is mature about the way he debates, and he doesn't ignorantly "condem" like some christians, much like 1 who has posted on this thread before and believes that his WAY is the only correct way.

thanks for the compliment, appreciate it. :thumb:

(understand........lol )

No I don't! In fact, it's a contridiction to believe such a thing.

hmm. i'm not seeing it that way. here's how i'm seeing it:

I must ask, how could irresistible grace work on a totally depraved person so as not to be forcing him to believe against his will? If the unregenerate person is initially able to resist God’s grace as he hears the gospel preached, then God must at that time be sending him a grace that is resistible. The totally depraved man, according to Piper, will always continue to resist God’s grace as long as it is of the “resistible” type. But as soon as God bestows some “irresistible grace” the man immediately can no longer resist (because the grace is irresistable, which means it can’t be resisted for even a second), and so he is immediately born again and believes. But just a moment ago, he was resisting! How can Piper then say that “it should be obvious from this that irresistible grace never implies that God forces us to believe against our will”? Not only is that not obvious, it stands in direct contradiction to what Piper has just said!

taken from here http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism/calvin_one.htm

All men are destined to hell, unless God saves you. We're like starfish that have washed up on the beach. There are millions of us just baking in the sun, soon to be doomed, and there is nothing we can do about it. The only way we can recieve salvation is if God comes along, picks us up, and tosses us into the ocean.

You make it sound like all men are destined to heaven, and God picks a few out and says, "Ok, you are all going to hell because I feel like sending you there." That's not the case. It's the exact opposite.

i believe that all men are destined to hell because of their sins. but calvinism does not assert that. it says that people go to hell because they are predestined there. John Calvin said it himself:

All men are not created for the same end; but some are fore-ordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. So according as every man was created for the one end or the other, we say, he was elected, that is, predestined to life, or reprobated, that is, predestined to damnation (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 21, section 1).

i don't think it can get much clearer than that folks. according to John calvin, salvation and damnation are the sole result of what God created you for, or rather predestined you for.

in short,

ACCORDING TO CALVINISM, GOD CREATES SOME PEOPLE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DAMNATION

wow, created to be damned. sounds loving right? :down:

Christ died for His sheep; all those who believe. If He spilt His blood to cover the sins of anyone who is in Hell, then His blood was spilt in vain, since that person is paying for their own sins even though Christ died for them. See the contridiction here? If you believe Christ died for everyone, you either believe in universalism, or that Christ died in vain for all those who go to hell - His spilt blood wasn't powerful enough to save them.

all those who believe become sheep. his blood reconciled the world so that those who put their faith in him will be saved. no one is paying for their own sins because that was done on the cross. instead, they are accepting the payment of them. they personally don't atone for them, but accept the payment through Jesus. see the difference?

No one believes that. You are twisting the truth I speak and believe. It's His grace that saves, not damns. Christ died to save, not condemn.

if you are a calvinist then you follow the teaching of John Calvin. John Calvin taught that men are predestined to hell. thus, you should be believing the same thing if you really are a calvinist.

Considering that man has a carnal mind that is enmity against God, and is uncapable of pleasing Him, or succombing to those things that are Spiritual, it would be cruel of God to expect us to choose Him freely of our own will. No man can! No man desires to! We use our will to resist God continually! It's His grace that takes that resistant, rebellious will from us, so that in turn our eyes and mind are open to the things He has freely given us through His Son Jesus Christ on the cross. The TRUTH becomes clear, and we run to God to fill our empty souls with His salvation.

No sooner is the soul quickened, than it at once discovers its lost estate - its horrified threat - looks for a refuge, and believing Christ to be a suitable one, flies to him and reposes in him.
-C.H. Spurgeon

the mind is enmity but does that mean man can't repent of that mind? isn't that what repenting is? how can man repent if God is the one who changes our mind? that would mean God does our repenting for us? talk about weird :kookoo:

1Co 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but GOD gave the increase.

You can preach to someone all day long, but unless God grants them faith and gives increase to your seed, they will never believe.

ever heard the phrase "if you take one step, God will take two"? same thing.

God Bless.

In Christ

God_Is_Truth

Swordsman

March 11th, 2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

i believe that all men are destined to hell because of their sins. but calvinism does not assert that. it says that people go to hell because they are predestined there. John Calvin said it himself:

i don't think it can get much clearer than that folks. according to John calvin, salvation and damnation are the sole result of what God created you for, or rather predestined you for.

in short,

ACCORDING TO CALVINISM, GOD CREATES SOME PEOPLE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DAMNATION

wow, created to be damned. sounds loving right? :down:

Coming from an open theist platform, I would expect you to say this. My question to you is: Have you ever read Romans 9? I challenge you to read this and pray to God that He speaks to you through Paul's words. Try Hebrews 2 as well.

For whatever reason people end up in Glory or in a eternal damnation, it is for God's purpose. Period. Not ours.

Here's a great quote from Patrick Hues Mell:

We are too much disposed to think of the eternal God as if He were just such a being as we are. Looking too exclusively upon our free agency and accountability, we lose sight of God's sovereignty and omniscience. Confining our observations only to the brief period which limits our existence on earth, we view Him as a mere contemporary with ourselves whose only jurisdiction is to reward us if we do well, to note our improper conduct if we act amiss, and to bring us into judgment hereafter. It does not enter into our conceptions that He existed from all eternity and, as our Creator, has supreme ownership of us -- that He was under no obligation to create us nor to destine us for one end rather than another. Our pride and self-love cause us to rebel at the declaration that God, in making and in disposing of us, consults His sovereign pleasure and His glory rather then our interests. And we are disposed to reply against God. As if He had not, in the beginning, in reference to us, the same right and the same power that the potter has out of clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor (Rom. 9:21).

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
all those who believe become sheep. his blood reconciled the world so that those who put their faith in him will be saved. no one is paying for their own sins because that was done on the cross. instead, they are accepting the payment of them. they personally don't atone for them, but accept the payment through Jesus. see the difference?

It depends on what you are referring to as "the world". If you believe He atoned for the sins of EVERYBODY, then you're taken what Christ said out of context. If He died for everyone, then universalism would be true and those like our dear friend smaller would be on the right track.

John 17:9 where Jesus is praying to God for the believers:
I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

All of John 17 is where Jesus is praying for those given to Him by God. That doesn't sound like the "whole world".

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
if you are a calvinist then you follow the teaching of John Calvin. John Calvin taught that men are predestined to hell. thus, you should be believing the same thing if you really are a calvinist.

Answer: you are either going to heaven or hell. Those that are not His elect will be going to hell. Period.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
the mind is enmity but does that mean man can't repent of that mind? isn't that what repenting is? how can man repent if God is the one who changes our mind? that would mean God does our repenting for us? talk about weird :kookoo:

If the Spirit doesn't convict our hearts for us to repent, then how will we ever know to repent? In other words, why repent? If God doesn't inject our lives with His Spirit to convict us of sin, then we cannot turn from our sin. Without God, you are a slave to sin and cannot escape it. You will completely reject God to utter ends and never repent unless God intervenes and changes our hearts.

God_Is_Truth

March 11th, 2004, 01:35 PM

Coming from an open theist platform, I would expect you to say this. My question to you is: Have you ever read Romans 9? I challenge you to read this and pray to God that He speaks to you through Paul's words. Try Hebrews 2 as well.

For whatever reason people end up in Glory or in a eternal damnation, it is for God's purpose. Period. Not ours.

here is a great interpretation of Romans 9 which i prefer.

http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/Custom/4/Documents/beltstudies.htm

i have read Romans 9 many times and can understand why calvinists see it as they do and why everyone else sees it as they do. i however feel that the calvinist interpretation does not fit as well with the whole of scripture as other interpretations do.

Here's a great quote from Patrick Hues Mell:

We are too much disposed to think of the eternal God as if He were just such a being as we are. Looking too exclusively upon our free agency and accountability, we lose sight of God's sovereignty and omniscience. Confining our observations only to the brief period which limits our existence on earth, we view Him as a mere contemporary with ourselves whose only jurisdiction is to reward us if we do well, to note our improper conduct if we act amiss, and to bring us into judgment hereafter. It does not enter into our conceptions that He existed from all eternity and, as our Creator, has supreme ownership of us -- that He was under no obligation to create us nor to destine us for one end rather than another. Our pride and self-love cause us to rebel at the declaration that God, in making and in disposing of us, consults His sovereign pleasure and His glory rather then our interests. And we are disposed to reply against God. As if He had not, in the beginning, in reference to us, the same right and the same power that the potter has out of clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor (Rom. 9:21).

i agree that God is supreme, rules all and could, if he wanted to, create all people specifically for one end or for another. however, the problem i have is when scripture says things like "God loves the world" and "God is love" and "God wants all men to be saved" which contradict such a concept. i am not arguing against God's right do as he pleases, only that it seems to against what he has told us through scripture.

It depends on what you are referring to as "the world". If you believe He atoned for the sins of EVERYBODY, then you're taken what Christ said out of context. If He died for everyone, then universalism would be true and those like our dear friend smaller would be on the right track.

John 17:9 where Jesus is praying to God for the believers:
I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours.

All of John 17 is where Jesus is praying for those given to Him by God. That doesn't sound like the "whole world".

the death of Christ provided the way of salvation. this is why Jesus said "i am the WAY, the truth and the life". the bible is very clear that one must put their faith in God in order to be saved. Jesus is the reason we can justly be forgiven of our sins and be saved through faith.

thus, i can still hold that Christ provided a WAY of salvation for ALL people so long as they put their faith in Him.

those who are given to Jesus in John 17 are those who have put their faith in him. God will keep them strong so they will not fall away and be lost.

Answer: you are either going to heaven or hell. Those that are not His elect will be going to hell. Period.

talk about favoritism! God picking out special people before they were born to specifically elect them to salvation and not others when there is no difference between them is clearly favoritism. but we know there is no favoritism with God. this alone should render unconditional election false. but people never seem to make this connection.

If the Spirit doesn't convict our hearts for us to repent, then how will we ever know to repent? In other words, why repent? If God doesn't inject our lives with His Spirit to convict us of sin, then we cannot turn from our sin. Without God, you are a slave to sin and cannot escape it. You will completely reject God to utter ends and never repent unless God intervenes and changes our hearts.

John 16:8
When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 11th, 2004, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
hmm. i'm not seeing it that way. here's how i'm seeing it:
I must ask, how could irresistible grace work on a totally depraved person so as not to be forcing him to believe against his will? If the unregenerate person is initially able to resist God’s grace as he hears the gospel preached, then God must at that time be sending him a grace that is resistible. The totally depraved man, according to Piper, will always continue to resist God’s grace as long as it is of the “resistible” type. But as soon as God bestows some “irresistible grace” the man immediately can no longer resist (because the grace is irresistable, which means it can’t be resisted for even a second), and so he is immediately born again and believes. But just a moment ago, he was resisting! How can Piper then say that “it should be obvious from this that irresistible grace never implies that God forces us to believe against our will”? Not only is that not obvious, it stands in direct contradiction to what Piper has just said!
taken from here http://www.shepherdserve.org/calvinism/calvin_one.htm
The bible, in which I and Piper agree, states that mankind continually resists the Holy Spirit with their rebellious wills. The grace of God does not force us to believe when we do not wish too. Reason being, God takes that resistant will away. And when He does, that is when we flee to Him and seek salvation and shelter. That's irresistable grace. God's not forcing anyone to believe in Him, or to love Him. He is simply saving people by taking their resistance away so that they can seek and follow and love Him on their own. He displays His love by freeing us from the bondage and blindness of sin.
i believe that all men are destined to hell because of their sins. but calvinism does not assert that. it says that people go to hell because they are predestined there. John Calvin said it himself:

i don't think it can get much clearer than that folks. according to John calvin, salvation and damnation are the sole result of what God created you for, or rather predestined you for.

in short,

ACCORDING TO CALVINISM, GOD CREATES SOME PEOPLE FOR THE PURPOSE OF DAMNATION

wow, created to be damned. sounds loving right? :down:
First of all, do not assume that I'm some sort of "Calvin follower", simply because I'm labeled a Calvinist for my beliefs. I don't like labels, but don't mind being called a Calvinist just for the sake of arguement. However, as Jonathan Edwards once said:

"I should not take it at all amiss, to be called a Calvinist, for distinction's sake: though I utterly disclaim a dependence on Calvin, or believing the doctrines which I hold, because he believed and taught them; and cannot justly be charged with believing in every thing just as he taught."

Thus, please do not state that I follow Calvin's teachings, or that I'm some sort of calvinistic religious junky. I only follow and believe what I have come been enlightened to through the reading of God's Word.

Secondly, your comment on God not being loving because He damns is ridiculous. Swordsman reply with a quote from Patrick Mell deserves a second look:

Our pride and self-love cause us to rebel at the declaration that God, in making and in disposing of us, consults His sovereign pleasure and His glory rather then our interests. And we are disposed to reply against God. As if He had not, in the beginning, in reference to us, the same right and the same power that the potter has out of clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor (Rom. 9:21).

That's exactly what you are doing. You are, in a sense, declaring God unrighteous for doing as He pleases, as if He is obligated to love and bless good things upon every man!
all those who believe become sheep.
That's not what Jesus said. He said people don't believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep, and that His sheep hear His voice, THEN they follow. You don't follow, then become a sheep. They were sheep before they even heard the message of Christ and His Word! And we believe because we are His sheep!
his blood reconciled the world so that those who put their faith in him will be saved.
His blood and sacrifice only reconciled? It didn't save? If not, then what can save a man?

Does not Hebrews tell us that the shedding of blood is necessary to omit one's sins? Therefore, if Christ's blood was shed for many, do you not think that they're sins are completely covered? Since that is the case, they will not go to hell. If they did, Christ's spilt blood was in vain. It did not cover the sins of those who go to hell, since they are paying for their own sins.

Christ did not die for everyone. Common sense tells us that. Unless you're a universalist.
if you are a calvinist then you follow the teaching of John Calvin. John Calvin taught that men are predestined to hell. thus, you should be believing the same thing if you really are a calvinist.
Please. I hardly know nothing of the man, and I could frankly care less! I DO NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF A MAN!

Besides, John Calvin himself did not sit in some isolated place and create somekind of religion in his head. He read scripture and explained what he read. He wasn't the first and only one to believe in what is now called "Calvinism". The sovereignty of God and the salvation of His elect is what the bible teaches, not what Calvin teaches.
the mind is enmity but does that mean man can't repent of that mind?
Does not repenting please God? And does not calling Jesus Lord a part of repenting? Thus, since repenting pleases God, and Romans 8 tells us that we cannot please God in our carnal mind, we cannot repent UNLESS the Holy Spirit inspires us to. For only by the Spirit can anyman declare that Jesus is Lord.
isn't that what repenting is? how can man repent if God is the one who changes our mind? that would mean God does our repenting for us? talk about weird :kookoo:
God doesn't "brainwash" us; He simply takes away our resistant will so that we can then repent. He grants us the permission to do so by His choosing; it's not our choice. God decides who He will let repent and who will not.

Swordsman

March 11th, 2004, 03:04 PM

Z Man - sometimes those of an Arminian or Open Theist ear are not and will not open up to the doctrine of sovereign grace. I used to be a quasi-Arminian believing that somehow it was up to me where I would spend eternity. Now, after God opened my eyes (not John Calvin) I am more and more seeing the truth.

I love that quote from Patrick Mell that you spoke about as well. Anything but giving Him glory through all things is considered pride. In other words, if God doesn't willeth all things to come to pass, then the Scriptures mean nothing as far as God's Sovereignty, omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence are concerned.

I mean, what does someone do with passages like Romans 9, Hebrews 2, John 6, and on and on and on??? Do they just rip them out and try to piece together a belief that fits their agenda?

You know, most churches sing the old hymn "Amazing Grace". I wonder if they really take to heart the words of that hymn.

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.

And I love the 6th verse of it:
The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, Who called me here below,
Shall be forever mine.

"God, Who called me". WOW!

p.s. John Newton (the writer) was a Calvinist.

5Solas=Truth

March 11th, 2004, 04:06 PM

Loved the OP Swordsman, reminded me of the following:

"From my childhood up, my mind had been full of objections against the doctrine of God's sovereignty, in choosing whom he would to eternal life, and rejecting whom he pleased; leaving them eternally to perish, and be everlastingly tormented in hell. It used to appear like a horrible doctrine to me. But I remember the time very well, when I seemed to be convinced, and fully satisfied, as to this sovereignty of God, and his justice in thus eternally disposing of men, according to his sovereign pleasure. But never could give an account, how, or by what means, I was thus convinced, not in the least imagining at the time, nor a long time after, that there was any extraordinary influence of God's Spirit in it; but only that now I saw further, and my reason apprehended the justice and reasonableness of it. However, my mind rested in it; and it put an end to all those cavils and objections. And there has been a wonderful alteration in my mind, in respect to the doctrine of God's sovereignty, from that day to this; so that I scarce ever have found so much as the rising of an objection against it, in the most absolute sense, in God's strewing mercy to whom he will shew mercy, and hardening whom he will. God's absolute sovereignty and justice, with respect to salvation and damnation, is what my mind seems to rest assured of, as much as of any thing that I see with my eyes; at least it is so at times. But I have often, since that first conviction, had quite another kind of sense of God's sovereignty than I had then. I have often since had not only a conviction, but a delightful conviction. The doctrine has very often appeared exceeding pleasant, bright, and sweet. Absolute sovereignty is what I love to ascribe to God. But my first conviction was not so."
Jonathan Edwards, A Personal Narrative

Sola Dei Gloria!

God_Is_Truth

March 11th, 2004, 04:46 PM

The bible, in which I and Piper agree, states that mankind continually resists the Holy Spirit with their rebellious wills. The grace of God does not force us to believe when we do not wish too. Reason being, God takes that resistant will away. And when He does, that is when we flee to Him and seek salvation and shelter. That's irresistable grace. God's not forcing anyone to believe in Him, or to love Him. He is simply saving people by taking their resistance away so that they can seek and follow and love Him on their own. He displays His love by freeing us from the bondage and blindness of sin.

so, at first we have a will that constantly rebels against God. then God takes this will away and in doing so "open's our eyes" so to speak to how things "really are" so that we go to him? is that what your saying?

if so, i have a couple questions. first off, once the resistence is taken away does one have to go to God? is one "free" to choose not go to God? or does not "have" to follow God? are we really "free" if we can't choose or can only choose God?

secondly, the only reason that one would really need this irresistible grace, it would seem, is if one establishes total depravity. not mostly depraved, totaly depraved. so, since i reject total and complete depravity i do not see a need for this "irresistible grace" that God could give.

First of all, do not assume that I'm some sort of "Calvin follower", simply because I'm labeled a Calvinist for my beliefs. I don't like labels, but don't mind being called a Calvinist just for the sake of arguement. However, as Jonathan Edwards once said:

"I should not take it at all amiss, to be called a Calvinist, for distinction's sake: though I utterly disclaim a dependence on Calvin, or believing the doctrines which I hold, because he believed and taught them; and cannot justly be charged with believing in every thing just as he taught."

Thus, please do not state that I follow Calvin's teachings, or that I'm some sort of calvinistic religious junky. I only follow and believe what I have come been enlightened to through the reading of God's Word.

fair enough. you quoted John Piper a while back and basically said that it was really close to what you believed. he's a hypercalvinist so i figured that you were at least at some level a calvinist.

Secondly, your comment on God not being loving because He damns is ridiculous. Swordsman reply with a quote from Patrick Mell deserves a second look:

Our pride and self-love cause us to rebel at the declaration that God, in making and in disposing of us, consults His sovereign pleasure and His glory rather then our interests. And we are disposed to reply against God. As if He had not, in the beginning, in reference to us, the same right and the same power that the potter has out of clay to make one vessel unto honor and another unto dishonor (Rom. 9:21).

That's exactly what you are doing. You are, in a sense, declaring God unrighteous for doing as He pleases, as if He is obligated to love and bless good things upon every man!

are you sugggesting that it's loving to predestine someone to hell for no good reason? :shocked:

i already gave you a link that explained what i see as a better interpretation of Romans 9 so your quoting seems out of place because that's now how i understand that passage.

if man is not totally depraved, then there is no need for the doctrine of uncondtional election. i reject total depravity so i see no need for UE (unconditional election).

and you still did not say anything about my point in regards to UE. so, i'll restate in a simple form.

do you, Z Man, believe that:

God unconditionally (for no reason) predestines (before they were born) people to hell as the doctrine of unconditional election teaches?

if you don't, then you MUST reject the doctrine of unconditional election. doing otherwise would be to just affirm your own election and not embracing the entire thing. you can't just pick and choose which part of UE you like. either you accept all of UE or you reject all of UE.

also, please demonstrate to me how UE is not teaching that God shows favoritism? would not those whom God unconditionally elects be the "favorites" of God so to speak? since he is capable of electing them all and clearly doesn't (according to your doctrine) then how are the ones he picks not his "favorites" so to speak?

That's not what Jesus said. He said people don't believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep, and that His sheep hear His voice, THEN they follow. You don't follow, then become a sheep. They were sheep before they even heard the message of Christ and His Word! And we believe because we are His sheep!

they don't believe what he is saying because they don't believe in him! it's that simple. if they believed in him (thus being his sheep) then they would believe what he said.

Please. I hardly know nothing of the man, and I could frankly care less! I DO NOT FOLLOW THE TEACHINGS OF A MAN!

Besides, John Calvin himself did not sit in some isolated place and create somekind of religion in his head. He read scripture and explained what he read. He wasn't the first and only one to believe in what is now called "Calvinism". The sovereignty of God and the salvation of His elect is what the bible teaches, not what Calvin teaches.

if the bible clearly teaches it then why didn't the doctrine come about until the reformation? and even then, why didn't everyone embrace it? also, why aren't all people believes in UE today if it's so clearly taught?

Does not repenting please God? And does not calling Jesus Lord a part of repenting? Thus, since repenting pleases God, and Romans 8 tells us that we cannot please God in our carnal mind, we cannot repent UNLESS the Holy Spirit inspires us to. For only by the Spirit can anyman declare that Jesus is Lord.

you repent OF THE MIND. so, the carnal mind itself does not please God. if you are still in the carnal mind, then you cannot please God by doing the things of it. but, to repent of the carnal mind is most pleasing to God.

God doesn't "brainwash" us; He simply takes away our resistant will so that we can then repent. He grants us the permission to do so by His choosing; it's not our choice. God decides who He will let repent and who will not.

so God takes away the will we had or at least changes it so that it no longer resists him. free will goes out the window at least that's how i'm seeing it.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

God_Is_Truth

March 11th, 2004, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Swordsman

Z Man - sometimes those of an Arminian or Open Theist ear are not and will not open up to the doctrine of sovereign grace. I used to be a quasi-Arminian believing that somehow it was up to me where I would spend eternity. Now, after God opened my eyes (not John Calvin) I am more and more seeing the truth.

I love that quote from Patrick Mell that you spoke about as well. Anything but giving Him glory through all things is considered pride. In other words, if God doesn't willeth all things to come to pass, then the Scriptures mean nothing as far as God's Sovereignty, omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence are concerned.

I mean, what does someone do with passages like Romans 9, Hebrews 2, John 6, and on and on and on??? Do they just rip them out and try to piece together a belief that fits their agenda?

You know, most churches sing the old hymn "Amazing Grace". I wonder if they really take to heart the words of that hymn.

Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found;
Was blind, but now I see.

And I love the 6th verse of it:
The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,
The sun forbear to shine;
But God, Who called me here below,
Shall be forever mine.

"God, Who called me". WOW!

p.s. John Newton (the writer) was a Calvinist.

calvinism is the ultimate display of human pride. it says "wow, i'm so special that God picked me! i mean, he has all these other people out there who don't get saved, yet i do! lucky me! i'm so glad i'm not one of them who aren't getting saved!"

cmon, talk about self-centeredness. how about we preach a gospel that ALL people are capable of accepting? one where there is NO room to boast because ALL are capable of accepting. hmm? how bout it? no? why not? oh yeah, cause you wouldn't be as "special" any more :rolleyes:

calvinism = :down: :help: :nono: :kookoo:

5Solas=Truth

March 11th, 2004, 07:50 PM

You are ignorant;

Chapt. III, V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory [i], out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto [k]; and all to the praise of His glorious grace [l].

God_Is_Truth

March 11th, 2004, 08:30 PM

Originally posted by 5Solas=Truth

You are ignorant;

Chapt. III, V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory [i], out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto [k]; and all to the praise of His glorious grace [l].

what exactly are you citing here? is this one of Calvin's writings?

Z Man

March 12th, 2004, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

so, at first we have a will that constantly rebels against God. then God takes this will away and in doing so "open's our eyes" so to speak to how things "really are" so that we go to him? is that what your saying?
Exactly.
if so, i have a couple questions. first off, once the resistence is taken away does one have to go to God? is one "free" to choose not go to God? or does not "have" to follow God? are we really "free" if we can't choose or can only choose God?
If you were heading toward a bridge in which you did not know was out, but a friend stopped you on your way to relay the news to you of the bridge's destruction, would you continue on the same path? (I hope not... :noid: )

How much greater than is the gift of God's glorious salvation and revelation of Himself and His truth? He is what every man desires deep down inside. And when God presents Himself to man, taking away his resistant will, we flee to Him and drink, as a man who was lost in the desert for days with no water! When God saves us, He not only takes away our resisitant will, granting us true freewill, but He also clothes us with the mind of Christ and the Spiritual armor. You are no longer blind, but you can see. You can see the truth of God and the truth of the destruction in which you were headed. Being able to see makes you realize that Satan and sin weren't a friend, but an enemy the whole time. A true, born again believer whom God has saved will not reject His truth, but rather embrace it, because they now know that He is all that matters.
are you sugggesting that it's loving to predestine someone to hell for no good reason? :shocked:
Your wording is misleading. God doesn't predestine for "no good reason". Everything He does is of good reason and purpose! He is infinitly wise! What He chooses to do with whomever or whatever, anytime, is always for a perfectly good reason!

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"
i already gave you a link that explained what i see as a better interpretation of Romans 9 so your quoting seems out of place because that's now how i understand that passage.
Don't be so close-minded and arrogant to think that your interpretation of it is the only correct way. Considering the overall biblical evidence and context that supports the view I hold dearly, and some in which we are debating (such as John 6 and 10, and others), you may want to open your ears and heart to the understanding of what Romans 9 truely says. It's a hard pill to swallow, considering it speaks of God's sovereignty, and seems to take man out of the picture, but it's a rewarding peace to realize that that is so.
do you, Z Man, believe that:

God unconditionally (for no reason) predestines (before they were born) people to hell as the doctrine of unconditional election teaches?
God does not predestine for "no reason". I went over this earlier.
also, please demonstrate to me how UE is not teaching that God shows favoritism? would not those whom God unconditionally elects be the "favorites" of God so to speak? since he is capable of electing them all and clearly doesn't (according to your doctrine) then how are the ones he picks not his "favorites" so to speak?
Favoritism is finding favor in the eyes of the beholder, in this case, God. Every man is equally sinful in God's eyes. He shows no partiality among men. He doesn't predestine us according to whom He finds favorites among, because no man can find favor in God of their own will! God doesn't predestine according to our interests, purpose, or actions, but rather, He predestines according to His interests, purpose, and action. Thus, it's false to claim God shows favoritism when men have done nothing to earn their election to salvation. We are merely tools in the hands of a God who possess infinite wisdom, and His purpose includes using us to carry out His will.
they don't believe what he is saying because they don't believe in him! it's that simple. if they believed in him (thus being his sheep) then they would believe what he said.
Jesus makes it clearer by saying that those who don't believe in Him don't believe because they are not His sheep. Then He turns right around and states that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. That's why even though those Jews, and people today, have heard the gospel message do not believe in Jesus Christ; because they are not His sheep. Likewise, those that believe when they hear His message of salvation do so because they are His sheep. They heard His voice and followed Him.
you repent OF THE MIND. so, the carnal mind itself does not please God. if you are still in the carnal mind, then you cannot please God by doing the things of it. but, to repent of the carnal mind is most pleasing to God.
What mind does a man possess in order to repent of their carnal mind? Do they automatically create within themselves a spiritual mind, so that they are able to discern the truth and realize that they do possess a carnal mind?

We've established that to repent, one must not be in a carnal mind. Thus, they must possess a spiritual one. Question:

Where does the spiritual mind of God, that is able to discern that which is spiritual and good and pleasing and acceptable before God, come from? Man, or God?
so God takes away the will we had or at least changes it so that it no longer resists him. free will goes out the window at least that's how i'm seeing it.
Taking our resistance away is God granting us freewill. Not only can we follow God, but to sin, one must actually make a willful choice in doing so. Before salvation, man does not have that option.

Swordsman

March 12th, 2004, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

calvinism is the ultimate display of human pride. it says "wow, i'm so special that God picked me! i mean, he has all these other people out there who don't get saved, yet i do! lucky me! i'm so glad i'm not one of them who aren't getting saved!"

Actually, anything BUT believing in Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistable Grace, and the Perseverance of the Saints is pride. I like how A.W. Pink describes God's Sovereignty: Here then is the refutation of the wicked charge that this doctrine is a horrible calumny upon God and dangerous to expound to His people. Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" that gives God His true place, that maintains His rights, that magnifies His grace, that ascribes all glory to Him and removes every ground of boasting from the creature? Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" which affords the saints a sense of security in danger, that supplies them comfort in sorrow, that begets patience within them in adversity, that evokes from them praise at all times? Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" which assures us of the certain triumph of good over evil, and which provides a sure resting-place for our hearts, and that place, the perfections of the Sovereign Himself? No; a thousand times, no! Instead of being "horrible and dangerous" this doctrine of the Sovereignty of God is glorious and edifying, and a due apprehension of it will but serve to make us exclaim with Moses, "Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like Thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?" (Exo. 15:11).

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
cmon, talk about self-centeredness. how about we preach a gospel that ALL people are capable of accepting? one where there is NO room to boast because ALL are capable of accepting. hmm? how bout it? no? why not? oh yeah, cause you wouldn't be as "special" any more :rolleyes:

I agree to an extent of what you're saying here. But, how about we preach the truth. The truth is: ALL people will not accept Him.

By you saying the comment about not being "as special" anymore - I think I know where you're coming from on this.

See Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her. This could be interpreted either in the Arminian or the Calvinist camp but makes more sense in the Calvinist one. Jesus gave Himself up for the church, not the unbelievers. Call it being "special" or His "favorite", or whatever connotation you want to include. The point is God and all His Sovereignty will make His power known and His will shall come to pass. No matter what.

Swordsman

March 12th, 2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by 5Solas=Truth

Loved the OP Swordsman, reminded me of the following:

"From my childhood up, my mind had been full of objections against the doctrine of God's sovereignty, in choosing whom he would to eternal life, and rejecting whom he pleased; leaving them eternally to perish, and be everlastingly tormented in hell. It used to appear like a horrible doctrine to me. But I remember the time very well, when I seemed to be convinced, and fully satisfied, as to this sovereignty of God, and his justice in thus eternally disposing of men, according to his sovereign pleasure. But never could give an account, how, or by what means, I was thus convinced, not in the least imagining at the time, nor a long time after, that there was any extraordinary influence of God's Spirit in it; but only that now I saw further, and my reason apprehended the justice and reasonableness of it. However, my mind rested in it; and it put an end to all those cavils and objections. And there has been a wonderful alteration in my mind, in respect to the doctrine of God's sovereignty, from that day to this; so that I scarce ever have found so much as the rising of an objection against it, in the most absolute sense, in God's strewing mercy to whom he will shew mercy, and hardening whom he will. God's absolute sovereignty and justice, with respect to salvation and damnation, is what my mind seems to rest assured of, as much as of any thing that I see with my eyes; at least it is so at times. But I have often, since that first conviction, had quite another kind of sense of God's sovereignty than I had then. I have often since had not only a conviction, but a delightful conviction. The doctrine has very often appeared exceeding pleasant, bright, and sweet. Absolute sovereignty is what I love to ascribe to God. But my first conviction was not so."
Jonathan Edwards, A Personal Narrative

Sola Dei Gloria!

And that just proves our total depravity. Simply denying the truth is an example of how slave to sin we really are. Praise God for His grace!

5Solas=Truth

March 12th, 2004, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

what exactly are you citing here? is this one of Calvin's writings?

Sorry about that LOL!!! I thought about this last night right before I fell asleep-- weird I know!! This quotation is from a Calvinistic standard confession, namely Westminster. Here then, I am not even arguing for the truth of the doctrine of election, as a predestinarian might see it, all I am doing is pointing out that there is NO WAY one could read the authoritative bodies of literature from the Calvinistic POV and come away with the thought that Calvinists think of themselves more highly than they ought, that there was ANYTHING in them that was somehow the cause of God electing them. Indeed, as the standard makes it clear above, election takes place "without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto". NOTHING, NO THING can be found in the elect themselves prior to the temporal enacting of their salvation besides their sin. And it is in this sin that God saves, for He loved us when we were yet sinners.

blessings

God_Is_Truth

March 13th, 2004, 12:43 AM

Exactly.

ok, glad i understand that.

If you were heading toward a bridge in which you did not know was out, but a friend stopped you on your way to relay the news to you of the bridge's destruction, would you continue on the same path? (I hope not... )

How much greater than is the gift of God's glorious salvation and revelation of Himself and His truth? He is what every man desires deep down inside. And when God presents Himself to man, taking away his resistant will, we flee to Him and drink, as a man who was lost in the desert for days with no water! When God saves us, He not only takes away our resisitant will, granting us true freewill, but He also clothes us with the mind of Christ and the Spiritual armor. You are no longer blind, but you can see. You can see the truth of God and the truth of the destruction in which you were headed. Being able to see makes you realize that Satan and sin weren't a friend, but an enemy the whole time. A true, born again believer whom God has saved will not reject His truth, but rather embrace it, because they now know that He is all that matters.

i'll take that as a "no".

Your wording is misleading. God doesn't predestine for "no good reason". Everything He does is of good reason and purpose! He is infinitly wise! What He chooses to do with whomever or whatever, anytime, is always for a perfectly good reason!

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"

10 entries found for condition.
con·di·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kn-dshn)
n.
A mode or state of being: “ The Organization Man survives as a modern classic because it captures a permanent part of our social condition” (Robert J. Samuelson). See Synonyms at state.

A state of health.
A state of readiness or physical fitness.
A disease or physical ailment: a heart condition.
Social position; rank.
One that is indispensable to the appearance or occurrence of another; prerequisite: Compatibility is a condition of a successful marriage.
One that restricts or modifies another; a qualification.
conditions Existing circumstances: Conditions in the office made concentration impossible.
Grammar. The dependent clause of a conditional sentence; protasis.
Logic. A proposition on which another proposition depends; the antecedent of a conditional proposition.
Law.
A provision making the effect of a legal instrument contingent on the occurrence of an uncertain future event.
The event itself.
An unsatisfactory grade given to a student, serving notice that deficiencies can be made up by the completion of additional work.
Obsolete. Disposition; temperament.

ok, a condition is clearly a prerequisite or a qualification for something. so, if something is unconditional then there is no "qualification" or "prerequisite" for it. thus, when it happens it's just done. there is no prerequisite for it. so, the only real reason it would happen if it's unconditional would be for God's own pleasure/purpose.

so, let me reclaify my question to you:

[B]Do you ZMan believe that God unconditionally (for no other reason than his own pleasure/purpose) predestines (before they were born) certain individuals to hell?

Don't be so close-minded and arrogant to think that your interpretation of it is the only correct way. Considering the overall biblical evidence and context that supports the view I hold dearly, and some in which we are debating (such as John 6 and 10, and others), you may want to open your ears and heart to the understanding of what Romans 9 truely says. It's a hard pill to swallow, considering it speaks of God's sovereignty, and seems to take man out of the picture, but it's a rewarding peace to realize that that is so.

if i thought it was to be read that way, that's how i'd read it. as it is, i don't see it as being read that way, so i don't read it that way.

God does not predestine for "no reason". I went over this earlier.

do you believe he does for the ONLY reason of his own pleasure/purpose? thus, he DOES NOT send people to heaven or hell based on their sins but SOLELY on his pleasure/purpose?

Favoritism is finding favor in the eyes of the beholder, in this case, God. Every man is equally sinful in God's eyes. He shows no partiality among men. He doesn't predestine us according to whom He finds favorites among, because no man can find favor in God of their own will! God doesn't predestine according to our interests, purpose, or actions, but rather, He predestines according to His interests, purpose, and action. Thus, it's false to claim God shows favoritism when men have done nothing to earn their election to salvation. We are merely tools in the hands of a God who possess infinite wisdom, and His purpose includes using us to carry out His will.

favoritism does NOT have to be based on the person finding favor in that person's eyes. favoritism can be done for the sole purpose of doing it. i can choose to give all blue eyed people a smile and all brown eyed people a frown for no other reason than i choose to.

Jesus makes it clearer by saying that those who don't believe in Him don't believe because they are not His sheep. Then He turns right around and states that His sheep hear His voice and they follow Him. That's why even though those Jews, and people today, have heard the gospel message do not believe in Jesus Christ; because they are not His sheep. Likewise, those that believe when they hear His message of salvation do so because they are His sheep. They heard His voice and followed Him.

i'm sorry but i don't read it that way.

What mind does a man possess in order to repent of their carnal mind? Do they automatically create within themselves a spiritual mind, so that they are able to discern the truth and realize that they do possess a carnal mind?

We've established that to repent, one must not be in a carnal mind. Thus, they must possess a spiritual one. Question:

Where does the spiritual mind of God, that is able to discern that which is spiritual and good and pleasing and acceptable before God, come from? Man, or God?

do you not think that one's will/desire/spirit is not above the desires of it's mind? my mind may want to go do drugs but does that mean because my mind wants to that i must? can i not choose against what first comes to mind? isn't that what "thinking" is?

Taking our resistance away is God granting us freewill. Not only can we follow God, but to sin, one must actually make a willful choice in doing so. Before salvation, man does not have that option.

so THAT'S what "free in Christ" means to you :D

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

God_Is_Truth

March 13th, 2004, 12:51 AM

Actually, anything BUT believing in Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistable Grace, and the Perseverance of the Saints is pride

how is unconditional election not favoritism? and how then could not one be proud that they are one of the elect and other's aren't? you have to at least admit that the option for boasting exists because you are one of the "chosen few" and anyone in hell is clearly not. in my view, boasting is not possible becaus ALL are capable of believing and anyone who goes to hell does so because he/she decides to. i have not done anything that everyone else can't do. thus, i can't boast.

I like how A.W. Pink describes God's Sovereignty: Here then is the refutation of the wicked charge that this doctrine is a horrible calumny upon God and dangerous to expound to His people. Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" that gives God His true place, that maintains His rights, that magnifies His grace, that ascribes all glory to Him and removes every ground of boasting from the creature? Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" which affords the saints a sense of security in danger, that supplies them comfort in sorrow, that begets patience within them in adversity, that evokes from them praise at all times? Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" which assures us of the certain triumph of good over evil, and which provides a sure resting-place for our hearts, and that place, the perfections of the Sovereign Himself? No; a thousand times, no! Instead of being "horrible and dangerous" this doctrine of the Sovereignty of God is glorious and edifying, and a due apprehension of it will but serve to make us exclaim with Moses, "Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like Thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?" (Exo. 15:11).

i never said Calvinism was dangerous. horrific, yes. any doctrine that teaches that a God who IS love unconditionally predestines people to hell is horrific.

I agree to an extent of what you're saying here. But, how about we preach the truth. The truth is: ALL people will not accept Him.

By you saying the comment about not being "as special" anymore - I think I know where you're coming from on this.

See Ephesians 5:25-27 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her. This could be interpreted either in the Arminian or the Calvinist camp but makes more sense in the Calvinist one. Jesus gave Himself up for the church, not the unbelievers. Call it being "special" or His "favorite", or whatever connotation you want to include. The point is God and all His Sovereignty will make His power known and His will shall come to pass. No matter what.

preach the truth! YES! definately! but, is the truth that all won't accept because they can't or because they won't? open theism is because they won't and calvinism is because they can't (God hasn't enabled them; they are still totally depraved) although they like to claim it's that they won't.

i totally agree that Jesus gave himself up for the church, but the church is anyone who believes and i believe that all have the opportunity and possibility of believing, thus becoming part of the church.

the church are only the "special" if they were unconditionally predestined to election from eternity and all the rest were predestined, unconditionally, to hell.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

God_Is_Truth

March 13th, 2004, 12:53 AM

Sorry about that LOL!!! I thought about this last night right before I fell asleep-- weird I know!! This quotation is from a Calvinistic standard confession, namely Westminster. Here then, I am not even arguing for the truth of the doctrine of election, as a predestinarian might see it, all I am doing is pointing out that there is NO WAY one could read the authoritative bodies of literature from the Calvinistic POV and come away with the thought that Calvinists think of themselves more highly than they ought, that there was ANYTHING in them that was somehow the cause of God electing them. Indeed, as the standard makes it clear above, election takes place "without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto". NOTHING, NO THING can be found in the elect themselves prior to the temporal enacting of their salvation besides their sin. And it is in this sin that God saves, for He loved us when we were yet sinners.

no problem about that source. i was not implying that calvinists think of themselves as the "special chosen" so to speak, only that it's possible for them to boast about it if they wanted to. it certainly seems to be what their doctrine of unconditional election teaches.

Z Man

March 13th, 2004, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

ok, a condition is clearly a prerequisite or a qualification for something. so, if something is unconditional then there is no "qualification" or "prerequisite" for it. thus, when it happens it's just done. there is no prerequisite for it. so, the only real reason it would happen if it's unconditional would be for God's own pleasure/purpose.

so, let me reclaify my question to you:

[B]Do you ZMan believe that God unconditionally (for no other reason than his own pleasure/purpose) predestines (before they were born) certain individuals to hell?
Absolutely.

Let me add one more thing, because I fear you are forgetting one thing; man's depravity. I know you do not, for some reason, believe in "total depravity", but you at least agree with me that all men sin. Thus, all men deserve hell. Man=sin=death=hell Agree? Thus, we can conclude that unless God intervenes, all men are destined to hell. God, however, has chosen to, unconditionally on our part, save some from their demiss. Our election to salvation is not conditional, in that we must meet a certain requirement to find favor and salvation in God; but rather, it is unconditional. God saves whomever He chooses based on His purposes. Those whom He does not choose are left to take upon themselves their consequences for sin. So yes, it can be stated that God chooses who these people will be that will suffer damnation, but it's not for nothing. If people could live perfect lives, God wouldn't send anyone to hell for no other reason than His satisfaction. No, of course not! But, since we agree that all men are guilty of sin, God is justified in Himself for sending whomever He chooses to hell.
do you believe he does for the ONLY reason of his own pleasure/purpose? thus, he DOES NOT send people to heaven or hell based on their sins but SOLELY on his pleasure/purpose?
He predestines according to His purposes. And He is justified in sending people to Hell or Heaven based upon His choosing. Hell, because all men are guilty of sin, and Heaven, because Christ died for their sins and took their judgement upon Himself.

Either way, God is right.
favoritism does NOT have to be based on the person finding favor in that person's eyes. favoritism can be done for the sole purpose of doing it. i can choose to give all blue eyed people a smile and all brown eyed people a frown for no other reason than i choose to.
favoritism: fa·vor·it·ism
1. A display of partiality toward a favored person or group.
2. The state of being held in special favor.
3. The disposition to favor and promote the interest of one person or family, or of one class of men, to the neglect of others having equal claims; partiality.

God shows no favoritism to men. He chooses soley on His purposes and interests. He shows no favortism to those whom He elects because His decision is not based on our interests, or of our attempt to find favor in His eyes.
i'm sorry but i don't read it that way.
How can you NOT read it that way?

Seriously, this is where the debate comes down to. I have presented scriptural evidence to support the doctrine of my beliefs, and when it comes down to the nitty gritty, the best reply you can come up with is "I don't read it that way". That's just an attempt on your part to dodge the obvious. If you would not be a coward and accept what the scripture plainly says (in this case, regarding Jesus's comments on that only His sheep can beleive), then this debate between us would not continue, for then you would believe what I believe. If you truely regard God's Word as the highest authority, then don't run or try to toss away the difficult to understand parts. Take them for what they say and suck it up.

This is where the mind breaks. I know that when I was in your shoes debating this very same issue, and it came down to this part where I was saying, "I don't read it that way", I had to really question myself and what the Bible really says concerning the issue of predestination and election. I realized that it was time for me to stop trying NOT to understand and to just allow it to mean exactly what it says. My mind snapped, and suddenly, God's Word became clearer in so many areas and aspects. It's a mind altering change, but you gotta let it go. May scripture stand corrected, and our words and doctrines be false. Let God snap your mind. ;)
do you not think that one's will/desire/spirit is not above the desires of it's mind?
Not while in sin. Man's thoughts are evil continuosly. They may not carry out every evil thought they have, but it doesn't matter. The only difference between an adultrer and one who thinks about it is, for lack of better terms, their courage. The guy who actually commits the act that someone else may only think about, has more guts than the other.

The only good in man is that which the Holy Spirit does. Man's desire and will is to reject God and rebel. They cannot repent unless the Holy Spirit allows them to. Man cannot rid themselves of thier carnal mind unless God grants them a spiritual one.

God_Is_Truth

March 13th, 2004, 03:31 PM

Absolutely.

so, then, by your own admission, God does not determine where one goes when they die on the basis of their sins. instead, it is based solely on his own purpose/pleasure which was determined beforehand. cmon, is that really biblical?

Let me add one more thing, because I fear you are forgetting one thing; man's depravity. I know you do not, for some reason, believe in "total depravity", but you at least agree with me that all men sin. Thus, all men deserve hell. Man=sin=death=hell Agree? Thus, we can conclude that unless God intervenes, all men are destined to hell. God, however, has chosen to, unconditionally on our part, save some from their demiss. Our election to salvation is not conditional, in that we must meet a certain requirement to find favor and salvation in God; but rather, it is unconditional. God saves whomever He chooses based on His purposes. Those whom He does not choose are left to take upon themselves their consequences for sin. So yes, it can be stated that God chooses who these people will be that will suffer damnation, but it's not for nothing. If people could live perfect lives, God wouldn't send anyone to hell for no other reason than His satisfaction. No, of course not! But, since we agree that all men are guilty of sin, God is justified in Himself for sending whomever He chooses to hell.

i agree that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. i agree that the wages of sin is death and thus all are deserving of death. however, they DIDN'T deserve it when they were condemned there. that's the difference. i believe that it's AFTER we sin that we are guilty of hell but you believe it's BEFORE.

see, this is also a problem i have with who God is. His character is good, holy, just, loving, merciful, forgiving, and perfect. i cannot figure out how predestining people to hell for no other reason than his own pleasure fits into ANY of those categories. i'm not saying that God wouldn't be allowed to since he is sovereign, but it sure seems contrary to what his unchanging character is. wouldn't you agree?

He predestines according to His purposes. And He is justified in sending people to Hell or Heaven based upon His choosing. Hell, because all men are guilty of sin, and Heaven, because Christ died for their sins and took their judgement upon Himself.

Either way, God is right.

but see, your view seems to say that whether a person has sinned or not (yes, they all have) has no effect whatosever upon their fate after they die. so even IF a person could live a perfect life, if they were already predestined to hell by God beforehand, then it seems that is where they would go. and that would make God most unjust.

[b]favoritism: fa·vor·it·ism
1. A display of partiality toward a favored person or group.
2. The state of being held in special favor.
3. The disposition to favor and promote the interest of one person or family, or of one class of men, to the neglect of others having equal claims; partiality.

God shows no favoritism to men. He chooses soley on His purposes and interests. He shows no favortism to those whom He elects because His decision is not based on our interests, or of our attempt to find favor in His eyes.

to choose some men out of the whole for no other reason then one's own pleasure sure seems like favoritism to me. sure, there is nothing within those particular men that God chose them for, but to choose some specifically for something (especially salvation) comes off as favoritism.

How can you NOT read it that way?

Seriously, this is where the debate comes down to. I have presented scriptural evidence to support the doctrine of my beliefs, and when it comes down to the nitty gritty, the best reply you can come up with is "I don't read it that way". That's just an attempt on your part to dodge the obvious. If you would not be a coward and accept what the scripture plainly says (in this case, regarding Jesus's comments on that only His sheep can beleive), then this debate between us would not continue, for then you would believe what I believe. If you truely regard God's Word as the highest authority, then don't run or try to toss away the difficult to understand parts. Take them for what they say and suck it up.

This is where the mind breaks. I know that when I was in your shoes debating this very same issue, and it came down to this part where I was saying, "I don't read it that way", I had to really question myself and what the Bible really says concerning the issue of predestination and election. I realized that it was time for me to stop trying NOT to understand and to just allow it to mean exactly what it says. My mind snapped, and suddenly, God's Word became clearer in so many areas and aspects. It's a mind altering change, but you gotta let it go. May scripture stand corrected, and our words and doctrines be false. Let God snap your mind.

i showed you a link that gave a perfectly valid explanation of how the passage can be read. there is almost always more than one way to read things.

i don't try to mess with what the scripture says. i read it for what it says. we just disagree on what that exactly is. calvinism, in taken in context with the whole bible, to me seems like a forced understanding of what the bible states. i have a amazingly hard time in trying to see calvinism fit the bible as a whole. i don't deny that there are verses here and there and even passages like Romans 9 which could be used as support for calvinism IF taken by themselves. but in the greater context, i don't think they fit very well at all.

Not while in sin. Man's thoughts are evil continuosly. They may not carry out every evil thought they have, but it doesn't matter. The only difference between an adultrer and one who thinks about it is, for lack of better terms, their courage. The guy who actually commits the act that someone else may only think about, has more guts than the other.

The only good in man is that which the Holy Spirit does. Man's desire and will is to reject God and rebel. They cannot repent unless the Holy Spirit allows them to. Man cannot rid themselves of thier carnal mind unless God grants them a spiritual one.

no, once we have the Holy Spirit, then it is him through us that does good. we still have to make the decision ourselves to do it. it's not like the Holy Spirit takes away our free will when he comes in. every choice is still our own.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 16th, 2004, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

so, then, by your own admission, God does not determine where one goes when they die on the basis of their sins. instead, it is based solely on his own purpose/pleasure which was determined beforehand. cmon, is that really biblical?
If God did determines where one goes on the basis of their sins, no one would go to heaven.
I agree that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. i agree that the wages of sin is death and thus all are deserving of death. however, they DIDN'T deserve it when they were condemned there. that's the difference. i believe that it's AFTER we sin that we are guilty of hell but you believe it's BEFORE.
After we sin? When does that take place? Are men born perfect, then become less and less perfect as their lives go on? What biblical evidence do you have to support such a fanatical idea?

My bible declares that none are good; that all men have nothing but evil thoughts continuously. You don't have to teach a child to steal a cookie from a cookie jar before supper, or to lie. That all comes natural. Men are soaked in sin; it's their nature. It's as much as who we are as is our own bodies and the functions to keep it alive. We sin naturally as we do in breathing. It's who we are.

Ps 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Show me a verse that says men are born perfect and without sin.
see, this is also a problem i have with who God is. His character is good, holy, just, loving, merciful, forgiving, and perfect. i cannot figure out how predestining people to hell for no other reason than his own pleasure fits into ANY of those categories. i'm not saying that God wouldn't be allowed to since he is sovereign, but it sure seems contrary to what his unchanging character is. wouldn't you agree?
Proverbs 16:4 NLT
The Lord has made everything for His purpose.

Revelation 4:11 NLT
You (God) created everything, and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created.

EVERYTHING has a purpose. Every tree, every bird, every fish, every rock; they all serve a purpose for God. He created all things for a purpose. Even man and his destiny. To declare God unrighteous and uncharacteristic of Him to create men for destruction is ignorant and unwise. Can He not do as He pleases with what He has created? Who is man to reply against God, telling Him He is wrong?

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"

Matt 20:15
[Jesus said:] "Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?"

Romans 9:18-24
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
but see, your view seems to say that whether a person has sinned or not (yes, they all have) has no effect whatosever upon their fate after they die. so even IF a person could live a perfect life, if they were already predestined to hell by God beforehand, then it seems that is where they would go. and that would make God most unjust.
Your arguement is a lost cause. What are you arguing for? All men sin; that's a given. To argue that I'm stating God sends perfect people to hell is a lie. That's not what anyone is saying. God is justified in sending whomever He wishes to hell, because all men have sinned. Of course God would be unjust for sending perfect people to hell. But that's not the case. Jesus was perfect, and He's in heaven. So if we could live perfect lives, we too could go to heaven and sit at the right side of God. But do you think any man will ever do such a thing? OF COURSE NOT! Your arguement is in vain.

Since no man can live perfect lives, God is most just for sending anyone He pleases to hell.
to choose some men out of the whole for no other reason then one's own pleasure sure seems like favoritism to me. sure, there is nothing within those particular men that God chose them for, but to choose some specifically for something (especially salvation) comes off as favoritism.
The only "favoritism" that God portrays in election is His own pleasure. For His own sake, for His own will, and for His own glory does He predestine whomever He wishes to wherever He wishes. His favoritism is in Himself and in His will, not in men.

Swordsman

March 16th, 2004, 11:05 AM

Z Man - I almost had something to add to God_Is_Truth's quotes, but you covered it all in your reply. I can tell that God is truly revealing Himself to you. When I first came to understand how God's sovereign grace completely envelopes all things, I fell to my knees and worshipped Him. He deserves all the glory because all things are ultimately for His glory. What an awesome God we serve!

God_Is_Truth

March 16th, 2004, 11:18 AM

If God did determines where one goes on the basis of their sins, no one would go to heaven.

no. God determines where one goes on the basis of whether or not their sins have been paid for or not. if Jesus paid for them, they are forgiven and they enter heaven. if they aren't paid for, then they are not forgiven and must be paid for by the person who committed them.

your view states that God predetermines people to either heaven or hell solely on the basis of God's own pleasure without a single thought towards whether a person has sinned or not.

After we sin? When does that take place? Are men born perfect, then become less and less perfect as their lives go on? What biblical evidence do you have to support such a fanatical idea?

My bible declares that none are good; that all men have nothing but evil thoughts continuously. You don't have to teach a child to steal a cookie from a cookie jar before supper, or to lie. That all comes natural. Men are soaked in sin; it's their nature. It's as much as who we are as is our own bodies and the functions to keep it alive. We sin naturally as we do in breathing. It's who we are.

Ps 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Show me a verse that says men are born perfect and without sin.

Psalms 51:5 could possibly be referring to an act of sin his mother did when david was conceived. do you know of any verses that talk about david's birth? i don't know enough of the old history to think of any off hand.

i personally believe that each person is born into this world with no sins whatsoever. i believe that they are born with a sinful nature which leads them into sin very quickly in this life such that no man can ever live an entire life perfectly. but i don't believe that we are born into this world already condemnd to death. if that was the case, it'd be better to never have kids.

Proverbs 16:4 NLT
The Lord has made everything for His purpose.

Revelation 4:11 NLT
You (God) created everything, and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created.

EVERYTHING has a purpose. Every tree, every bird, every fish, every rock; they all serve a purpose for God. He created all things for a purpose. Even man and his destiny. To declare God unrighteous and uncharacteristic of Him to create men for destruction is ignorant and unwise. Can He not do as He pleases with what He has created? Who is man to reply against God, telling Him He is wrong?

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"

Matt 20:15
[Jesus said:] "Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me?"

Romans 9:18-24
Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

the question is not "can God do something, is he allowed to do it?" but "is God going to do something that directly contradicts his good, holy, and perfectly upright character?"

Your arguement is a lost cause. What are you arguing for? All men sin; that's a given. To argue that I'm stating God sends perfect people to hell is a lie. That's not what anyone is saying. God is justified in sending whomever He wishes to hell, because all men have sinned. Of course God would be unjust for sending perfect people to hell. But that's not the case. Jesus was perfect, and He's in heaven. So if we could live perfect lives, we too could go to heaven and sit at the right side of God. But do you think any man will ever do such a thing? OF COURSE NOT! Your arguement is in vain.

Since no man can live perfect lives, God is most just for sending anyone He pleases to hell.

i'm arguing that the doctrine of unconditional election has some serious problems and makes God into a very different God than revealed in the bible.

i am not arguing that God sends perfect people to hell. as you already stated, there aren't any perfect people. what you are stating and i am opposing is the idea that the determination of where one goes when they die is predetermined unconditionally. i believe that it's based on their sins and whether or not they have been forgiven through faith in Jesus. your view has it determined on whether or not they were predestined there. mine has it based on whether or not they put faith in Christ.

The only "favoritism" that God portrays in election is His own pleasure. For His own sake, for His own will, and for His own glory does He predestine whomever He wishes to wherever He wishes. His favoritism is in Himself and in His will, not in men.

ok, that kinda makes sense. i'll drop this point about favoritism for now.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

God_Is_Truth

March 16th, 2004, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Swordsman
He deserves all the glory because all things are ultimately for His glory. What an awesome God we serve!

Amen. :D

AndrewLevicki

March 16th, 2004, 11:24 AM

Romans 11:33-36

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!

"For who has known the mind of the Lord,
or who has been his counselor?"

"Or who has given a gift to him
that he might be repaid?"

For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.

God_Is_Truth

March 16th, 2004, 11:38 AM

Amen!!!!!!!!!!

welcome to TOL by the way. :up:

Z Man

March 16th, 2004, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by Swordsman

Z Man - I almost had something to add to God_Is_Truth's quotes, but you covered it all in your reply. I can tell that God is truly revealing Himself to you. When I first came to understand how God's sovereign grace completely envelopes all things, I fell to my knees and worshipped Him. He deserves all the glory because all things are ultimately for His glory. What an awesome God we serve!
Just 4 years ago I too was broken when I learned of God's absolute sovereignty. It humbled me beyond what words could ever express to learn that out of His pure love for me, God saved me despite the fact that I was rebellious, like an adultrious wife to Him. In my sins, God saved me. Amazing grace, how sweet the sound!

Psalms 8:1, 3-4
O Lord, our Lord, How excellent is Your name in all the earth, Who have set Your glory above the heavens! When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, The moon and the stars, which You have ordained, what is man that You are mindful of him...

God bless! :thumb:

Z Man

March 16th, 2004, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

no. God determines where one goes on the basis of whether or not their sins have been paid for or not. if Jesus paid for them, they are forgiven and they enter heaven. if they aren't paid for, then they are not forgiven and must be paid for by the person who committed them.
Absolutely! You just explained limited atonement my friend! How exciting... I pray that God reveals this to you as He did to me and others. It is truely a phenomenal and extrodinary event to behold the sovereignty of God and realize the true magnificence of His amazing grace!
your view states that God predetermines people to either heaven or hell solely on the basis of God's own pleasure without a single thought towards whether a person has sinned or not.
Does anyone really need to consider if a person has sinned or not? Do we not already know what the answer to that is? ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD!

God destines people wherever He wishes. Not according to man's actions or will does He consider His deceisions and purposes; rather, according to His pleasure and purposes do all things happen and are all things created. Man is not God's co-manager of the universe. He doesn't need our insight or opinions on how to run things around here. He'll do what He wants to do, regardless if we like it or not.
Psalms 51:5 could possibly be referring to an act of sin his mother did when david was conceived. do you know of any verses that talk about david's birth? i don't know enough of the old history to think of any off hand.
That's a little far fetched explanation of what the verse says. It's like you don't want to take it for what it says. The verse says exactly what needs to be said; men are concieved in sin - we are brought forth in iniquity. When you are born in the flesh, you are born in sin. Flesh = sin.
i personally believe that each person is born into this world with no sins whatsoever.
Who cares what you personally believe. What does the bible tell us?
i believe that they are born with a sinful nature which leads them into sin very quickly in this life such that no man can ever live an entire life perfectly.
Regardless, the point is, every man is born into sin, and they cannot escape thier outcome which is a sinful life, which leads to damnation. The wages of sin is death. To be born is to die, both spiritually and physically. Every man must be born again in the spirit to have everlasting life. If every man was born sinless, then we would have no need to be "born again".
but i don't believe that we are born into this world already condemnd to death. if that was the case, it'd be better to never have kids.
That's the tragedy of mankind; our sinful nature. We are all damned. It comes with being human. That's why it's so important to tell other's about Christ. The harvest is vast, and when we realize the depravity of mankind and how serious our doom really is, it should spark a spirit of desperation in us to get the message of Christ out into all the world. God's grace within our lives is given to us by God so that we may be motivated to tell other's, so that He can do the same to them. God's greatest desire from us is to worship and glorify Him, because He knows that that is what truely gives us complete joy. God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him.

As for not having kids simply because man is sinful and condemned is saying that you do not trust God and His purposes. All things serve a reason. And for us to know Christ and His grace, it would be better for Christians to have more kids than non-believers! Anyways, to say you wouldn't have kids is to steal from them, although they are unborn, the greatest gift of mankind, which is the oppurtunity to know God. Yeah, your kids my be sinful in life and condemned like every other man who has lived and will live, God can still save them if He so desires. And the more rebellious they are, the sweeter His grace becomes.

Anyways, that's a tangent that really isn't important in our discussion. I'm just rambling. Let's continue...
the question is not "can God do something, is he allowed to do it?" but "is God going to do something that directly contradicts his good, holy, and perfectly upright character?"
What have I said or believe in that goes against God's character?

You stated that for God to send people to hell simply for His pleasure is unrighteous for Him to do. But I showed scripture that proves that's not the case. All men have sinned, thus God is most just for sending anyone He wishes to hell.
i'm arguing that the doctrine of unconditional election has some serious problems and makes God into a very different God than revealed in the bible.
If the God I served was not biblical, I would not be serving Him.

He's very different to you because that's not what "religion" teaches us in the "traditional" churches of today. People have carved out this image of God in their heads, and when I and other's come along and state something that seems "contrary" or "uncharacteristic" of His pre-conceived image in your heads, we're branded as herectics.
I am not arguing that God sends perfect people to hell. as you already stated, there aren't any perfect people. what you are stating and i am opposing is the idea that the determination of where one goes when they die is predetermined unconditionally. i believe that it's based on their sins and whether or not they have been forgiven through faith in Jesus. your view has it determined on whether or not they were predestined there. mine has it based on whether or not they put faith in Christ.
God predestines people to hell based on their sins. He predestines those to heaven based on Christ's sacrifice. In all things, He does what He pleases. Whom He saves He does so according to His pleasure and glory.

If man determines his own destiny, and not God, then what happens to mercy and grace? It no longer becomes a gift or amazing, but rather a reward and an expectation of God. God would just "expect" every man to repent, but never really do anything to save him. That would rest in his own hands.

Considering the depravity of man, that would be cruel. It's like asking a blind man to cross the road without actually taking him across. You may say that Christ is why we can "cross", but that's nothing more than saying God threw a "walking cane" across the road to the blind, or going out to cover a manhole, then running back to His side of the road only to beckon the blind to cross.

Z Man

March 16th, 2004, 02:25 PM

God: "Ok guys, here's salvation. Come and get it."

Man: "Lord, we can't. We hate you. Our will is not your will."

God: "Well, if you don't come over here and receive my grace, then you're all going to hell."

Man: "Forget you God. I'll do it my way."

God: "Guys...c'mon. Seriously, it's right here. Just come and get it."

Man: "Lord, we can't. Our mind is carnal and enmity against you. We desire anything BUT You. If you really want us to come to you, change our minds. Give us the gift of grace Yourself."

God: "O no.. I can't do that. That would go against your "freewill", and it would make me "mean"."

:rolleyes:

Open theism/Arminism or whatever you want to call it is to say that God is like a person who puts the food dish just out of reach of the dog on a chain and expects the dog to eat and live. If God does not save anyone, but rather "expects" men to save themselves and repent of their own will, it's putting His grace just out of our grasp and teasing us by calling us to Himself, knowing full well we cannot reach eternal life on our own. He MUST come undo our leash before we able to eat and drink of His mercies and grace.

God_Is_Truth

March 16th, 2004, 06:56 PM

Absolutely! You just explained limited atonement my friend! How exciting... I pray that God reveals this to you as He did to me and others. It is truely a phenomenal and extrodinary event to behold the sovereignty of God and realize the true magnificence of His amazing grace!

sure sounds like it doesn't it :D

what i meant to say was that all who have faith in Christ will be forgiven of their sins because Jesus's death becomes effectual for them. for those who do not have faith in Jesus, Jesus still died for them but because they lacked faith they will not be saved.

but you see, the real problem is that your doctrine teaches that one does not go to heaven or hell because of whether one's sins have been paid for or not. instead it's based purely on where one was predestined. sin never enter the picture by your doctrine. so it seems like you are holding a contradictory position. on the one hand you want to say that because man is sinful we all deserve to go to hell and God is just in sending us all there because of it. on the other hand you want to say that God unconditionally predestines everyone either to heaven or hell. i just don't see how you can have it both ways.

either we go to heaven/hell because of our having our sins paid/not paid or we go to heaven/hell because we were predestined there. which do you choose?

Does anyone really need to consider if a person has sinned or not? Do we not already know what the answer to that is? ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALLEN SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD!

God destines people wherever He wishes. Not according to man's actions or will does He consider His deceisions and purposes; rather, according to His pleasure and purposes do all things happen and are all things created. Man is not God's co-manager of the universe. He doesn't need our insight or opinions on how to run things around here. He'll do what He wants to do, regardless if we like it or not.

God doesn't just "destine" according to you. he PREdestines. their condemnation or exaltation was already determined BEFORE they ever existed. thus, their sin cannot possibly determine where they go, if they were predestined as such. it can't because they couldn't have committed it when their afterlife placement was determined. thus, i don't see how you can hold that a persons' sins can play ANY role in their salvation/damnation.

That's a little far fetched explanation of what the verse says. It's like you don't want to take it for what it says. The verse says exactly what needs to be said; men are concieved in sin - we are brought forth in iniquity. When you are born in the flesh, you are born in sin. Flesh = sin.

it was juat A explanation. i haven't studied it in depth to conclude what David was saying.

Who cares what you personally believe. What does the bible tell us?

i personally believe it because i'm not for sure what the bible tells us. if the bible tells us otherwise, i'd have to change my belief.

Regardless, the point is, every man is born into sin, and they cannot escape thier outcome which is a sinful life, which leads to damnation. The wages of sin is death. To be born is to die, both spiritually and physically. Every man must be born again in the spirit to have everlasting life. If every man was born sinless, then we would have no need to be "born again".

agreed.

What have I said or believe in that goes against God's character?

You stated that for God to send people to hell simply for His pleasure is unrighteous for Him to do. But I showed scripture that proves that's not the case. All men have sinned, thus God is most just for sending anyone He wishes to hell.

how is it good, loving, merciful, holy, just, perfect, forgiving, wonderful, kind, gracious, generous, helpful, peaceful or right to predestine an individual to hell for eternity for nothing they themselves did?

i'm sure you'll just pull the old "God is sovereign and can do that" card anyways, but seriously think about it. God has a character consisting of that. do you really think that someone with a character as such is going to do something like predestining an individual to hell for eternity for nothing they themselves did?

If the God I served was not biblical, I would not be serving Him.

He's very different to you because that's not what "religion" teaches us in the "traditional" churches of today. People have carved out this image of God in their heads, and when I and other's come along and state something that seems "contrary" or "uncharacteristic" of His pre-conceived image in your heads, we're branded as herectics.

there are different beliefs about how God is described in the bible. in the end, only one can be right. but since it's not clear in the bible and can easily be read in different ways, we have opposing positions. this is why i'm not bothered if people are calvinists. i don't hold to it because i don't see it as biblical. some people do. i try to show them why i don't and likewise, learn why they do. in the end though, sometimes we just don't understand the other person's position and must give up trying to "convince" the other person that we are "right".

God predestines people to hell based on their sins. He predestines those to heaven based on Christ's sacrifice. In all things, He does what He pleases. Whom He saves He does so according to His pleasure and glory.

nope. you can't hold that God predestines people to hell based on their sins. otherwise that'd be a condition! it has to be because of ONLY his pleasure. if it's based on anything about the man whatsoever (like his sins) then it's not unconditional, but conditional.

If man determines his own destiny, and not God, then what happens to mercy and grace? It no longer becomes a gift or amazing, but rather a reward and an expectation of God. God would just "expect" every man to repent, but never really do anything to save him. That would rest in his own hands.

it is both God and man who determine one's destiny. God did not have to save anyone and could have justly condemned us all to hell forever. however, he decided to save whoever wished to be saved and put their faith in God. all who put their faith in God, these God will save. this is God's part. our part is in our decision to put our faith in God. thus, it is God who saves us, but on the basis of our faith which was the condition HE determined.

as for mercy and grace, they are definately still there. it is mercy and grace that sent Jesus to the cross on our behalf to make a way so that all who have faith in God would be saved. we neither deserved Jesus or earned Jesus. that's why it's grace. it's mercy to offer us any salvation whatsoever cause we don't deserve that either.

Considering the depravity of man, that would be cruel. It's like asking a blind man to cross the road without actually taking him across. You may say that Christ is why we can "cross", but that's nothing more than saying God threw a "walking cane" across the road to the blind, or going out to cover a manhole, then running back to His side of the road only to beckon the blind to cross.

man is depraved, but not so much that he can't repent and accept the gospel of salvation. all men are capable of accepting but many refuse to do so.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

God_Is_Truth

March 16th, 2004, 07:19 PM

God: "Ok guys, here's salvation. Come and get it."

Man: "Lord, we can't. We hate you. Our will is not your will."

ok, problem one. no one is going to call God "Lord" and then say "we hate you". it makes no sense. so your little dialogue is flawed from statement 2.

God: "Well, if you don't come over here and receive my grace, then you're all going to hell."

Man: "Forget you God. I'll do it my way."

our next problem is that not all men are going to react this way to God. some will and some won't probably based on what their life experience has been like up this point. the point is that not all men will react this way. so that's another thing wrong with the dialogue.

God: "Guys...c'mon. Seriously, it's right here. Just come and get it."

Man: "Lord, we can't. Our mind is carnal and enmity against you. We desire anything BUT You. If you really want us to come to you, change our minds. Give us the gift of grace Yourself."

third problem, the idea that God has to give us a new mind for us to accept him. this isn't scriptural the last time i checked. i'm sure you'll appeal to things like Romans 7 and lydia in the book of acts as concrete evidence of such, but i don't feel that it's enough to safely conclude what you assert.

God: "O no.. I can't do that. That would go against your "freewill", and it would make me "mean"."

God, out of love gave us free will. he didn't have to. he could have made us all robots to do his will but he decided that he'd rather have us willingly love him.

Open theism/Arminism or whatever you want to call it is to say that God is like a person who puts the food dish just out of reach of the dog on a chain and expects the dog to eat and live. If God does not save anyone, but rather "expects" men to save themselves and repent of their own will, it's putting His grace just out of our grasp and teasing us by calling us to Himself, knowing full well we cannot reach eternal life on our own. He MUST come undo our leash before we able to eat and drink of His mercies and grace.

total depravity is not a belief that we hold. we hold that all "dogs on the leash" so to speak are in a position where on their own they cannot reach the bowl. however, if they ask for God to put the bowl in their reach, he will do so. on their own they can't reach it. but he'll move it for whoever asks. it takes faith to ask God and that's what saves us. Jesus is the one who moves our bowl.

so, once again, IF one holds to total depravity then the rest follows. but i don't see enough scriptural basis to affirm such a position. depraved? yes. totally? no.

Swordsman

March 17th, 2004, 01:48 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

God, out of love gave us free will.

Really? Where does it say this?

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
he didn't have to. he could have made us all robots to do his will but he decided that he'd rather have us willingly love him.

Even more than willingly, but irresistably love Him.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
total depravity is not a belief that we hold. we hold that all "dogs on the leash" so to speak are in a position where on their own they cannot reach the bowl. however, if they ask for God to put the bowl in their reach, he will do so. on their own they can't reach it.

And never will either.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
but he'll move it for whoever asks. it takes faith to ask God and that's what saves us. Jesus is the one who moves our bowl.

But remember, that faith in you is from God, not something developed by you, lest any man should boast.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
so, once again, IF one holds to total depravity then the rest follows. but i don't see enough scriptural basis to affirm such a position. depraved? yes. totally? no.

So, you're just semi-depraved? How much? 10%? 50%?

Try 100%. For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God Romans 3:23

I hate to break it to you, but you and I both are 100% sinners. Nothing less. It isn't fair that either one of us goes to heaven. We don't deserve it. And it wasn't your very first sin that doomed to you hell. You were destined for hell before that. A born sinner. The only perfect one was Jesus. Everyone else is just sinners. So, you're either Totally Depraved or Perfect.

philosophizer

March 17th, 2004, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Swordsman
So, you're just semi-depraved? How much? 10%? 50%?

Try 100%. For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God Romans 3:23

I hate to break it to you, but you and I both are 100% sinners. Nothing less. It isn't fair that either one of us goes to heaven. We don't deserve it. And it wasn't your very first sin that doomed to you hell. You were destined for hell before that. A born sinner. The only perfect one was Jesus. Everyone else is just sinners. So, you're either Totally Depraved or Perfect.

That passage from Romans doesn't necessarily mean that every deed we do of our selves is always sinful, but for the personal aid of God. That verse simply says that everyone sins. Not necessarily that everyone will always by default sin, unless controlled otherwise.

Everyone is a sinner. No one can live their lives without sinning. No one goes even a day. But that doesn't necessarily mean that every good deed a person does cannot come from that person.

We all have the ability to choose to do good or evil. None of us are strong enough to always do good. But that doesn't mean that we always do evil. We sometimes choose evil. And when we feel the real Word of God written on our hearts, then we can choose to follow it and do good.

Z Man

March 17th, 2004, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by philosophizer

That passage from Romans doesn't necessarily mean that every deed we do of our selves is always sinful, but for the personal aid of God. That verse simply says that everyone sins. Not necessarily that everyone will always by default sin, unless controlled otherwise.

Everyone is a sinner. No one can live their lives without sinning. No one goes even a day. But that doesn't necessarily mean that every good deed a person does cannot come from that person.

We all have the ability to choose to do good or evil. None of us are strong enough to always do good. But that doesn't mean that we always do evil. We sometimes choose evil. And when we feel the real Word of God written on our hearts, then we can choose to follow it and do good.
Total Depravity

When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.

There is no doubt that man could perform more evil acts toward his fellow man than he does. But if he is restrained from performing more evil acts by motives that are not owing to his glad submission to God, then even his "virtue" is evil in the sight of God.

Romans 14:23 says, "Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." This is a radical indictment of all natural "virtue" that does not flow from a heart humbly relying on God's grace.

The terrible condition of man's heart will never be recognized by people who assess it only in relation to other men. Romans 14:23 makes plain that depravity is our condition in relation to God primarily, and only secondarily in relation to man. Unless we start here we will never grasp the totality of our natural depravity.

Man's depravity is total in at least four senses.

(1) Our rebellion against God is total.

Apart from the grace of God there is no delight in the holiness of God, and there is no glad submission to the sovereign authority of God.

Of course totally depraved men can be very religious and very philanthropic. They can pray and give alms and fast, as Jesus said (Matthew 6:1-18). But their very religion is rebellion against the rights of their Creator, if it does not come from a childlike heart of trust in the free grace of God. Religion is one of the chief ways that man conceals his unwillingness to forsake self-reliance and bank all his hopes on the unmerited mercy of God (Luke 18:9-14; Colossians 2:20-23).

The totality of our rebellion is seen in Romans 3:9-10 and 18. "I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: None is righteous, no not one; no one seeks for God....There is no fear of God before their eyes."

It is a myth that man in his natural state is genuinely seeking God. Men do seek God. But they do not seek him for who he is. They seek him in a pinch as one who might preserve them from death or enhance their worldly enjoyments. Apart from conversion, no one comes to the light of God.

Some do come to the light. But listen to what John 3:20-21 says about them. "Every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."

Yes there are those who come to the light -- namely those whose deeds are the work of God. "Wrought in God" means worked by God. Apart from this gracious work of God all men hate the light of God and will not come to him lest their evil be exposed -- this is total rebellion. "No one seeks for God...There is no fear of God before their eyes!"

(2) In his total rebellion everything man does is sin.

In Romans 14:23 Paul says, "Whatever is not from faith is sin." Therefore, if all men are in total rebellion, everything they do is the product of rebellion and cannot be an honor to God, but only part of their sinful rebellion. If a king teaches his subjects how to fight well and then those subjects rebel against their king and use the very skill he taught them to resist him, then even those skills become evil.

Thus man does many things which he can only do because he is created in the image of God and which in the service of God could be praised. But in the service of man's self-justifying rebellion, these very things are sinful.

In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that no good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." This is a radical confession of the truth that in our rebellion nothing we think or feel is good. It is all part of our rebellion. The fact that Paul qualifies his depravity with the words, "that is, in my flesh," shows that he is willing to affirm the good of anything that the Spirit of God produces in him (Romans 15:18). "Flesh" refers to man in his natural state apart from the work of God's Spirit. So what Paul is saying in Romans 7:18 is that apart from the work of God's Spirit all we think and feel and do is not good.

*NOTE: We recognize that the word "good" has a broad range of meanings. We will have to use it in a restricted sense to refer to many actions of fallen people which in relation are in fact not good.*

For example we will have to say that it is good that most unbelievers do not kill and that some unbelievers perform acts of benevolence. What we mean when we call such actions good is that they more or less conform to the external pattern of life that God has commanded in Scripture.

However, such outward conformity to the revealed will of God is not righteousness in relation to God. It is not done out of reliance on him or for his glory. He is not trusted for the resources, though he gives them all. Nor is his honor exalted, even though that's his will in all things (1 Corinthians 10:31). Therefore even these "good" acts are part of our rebellion and are not "good" in the sense that really counts in the end -- in relation to God.

(3) Man's inability to submit to God and do good is total.

Picking up on the term "flesh" above (man apart from the grace of God) we find Paul declaring it to be totally enslaved to rebellion. Romans 8:7-8 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

The "mind of the flesh" is the mind of man apart from the indwelling Spirit of God ("You are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you," Romans 8:9). So natural man has a mindset that does not and cannot submit to God. MAN CANNOT REFORM HIMSELF.

Ephesians 2:1 says that we Christians were all once "dead in trespasses and sins." The point of deadness is that we were incapable of any life with God. Our hearts were like a stone toward God (Ephesians 4:18; Ezekiel 36:26). Our hearts were blind and incapable of seeing the glory of God in Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). We were totally unable to reform ourselves.

(4) Our rebellion is totally deserving of eternal punishment.

Ephesians 2:3 goes on to say that in our deadness we were "children of wrath." That is, we were under God's wrath because of the corruption of our hearts that made us as good as dead before God.

The reality of hell is God's clear indictment of the infiniteness of our guilt. If our corruption were not deserving of an eternal punishment God would be unjust to threaten us with a punishment so severe as eternal torment. But the Scriptures teach that God is just in condemning unbelievers to eternal hell (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29f; 10:28; 13:49f; 18:8f; 25:46; Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10). Therefore, to the extent that hell is a total sentence of condemnation, to that extent must we think of ourselves as totally blameworthy apart from the saving grace of God.

In summary, total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.

It is hard to exaggerate the importance of admitting our condition to be this bad. If we think of ourselves as basically good or even less than totally at odds with God, our grasp of the work of God in redemption will be defective.

But if we humble ourselves under this terrible truth of our total depravity, we will be in a position to see and appreciate the glory and wonder of the work of God's amazing grace.

- John Piper

God_Is_Truth

March 17th, 2004, 06:31 PM

Really? Where does it say this?

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Even more than willingly, but irresistably love Him.

if it's irresistible then it's not willingly. that's a contradiction in terms. willingly implies its NOT irresistible.

And never will either.

anyone who asks will.

But remember, that faith in you is from God, not something developed by you, lest any man should boast.

nope. faith comes by hearing the word. Romans 10:17.

So, you're just semi-depraved? How much? 10%? 50%?

Try 100%. For ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God Romans 3:23

you're using Romans 3:23 to establish total depravity? lol that's a good one. all Romans 3:23 says is that every one of us has sinned at least one point in our life and thus have fallen short of God's glory which is perfection.

I hate to break it to you, but you and I both are 100% sinners. Nothing less. It isn't fair that either one of us goes to heaven. We don't deserve it. And it wasn't your very first sin that doomed to you hell. You were destined for hell before that. A born sinner. The only perfect one was Jesus. Everyone else is just sinners. So, you're either Totally Depraved or Perfect.

that's really sad when you believe in a doctrine that destines many unborn babies to hell just for being born. :shocked:

God_Is_Truth

March 17th, 2004, 06:35 PM

But if we humble ourselves under this terrible truth of our total depravity, we will be in a position to see and appreciate the glory and wonder of the work of God's amazing grace.

lol i had to laugh when i read that. you just established that one cannot submit to God's will in any way, shape, or form and then you try to send out this message of "humbling yourself".

the irony of this is truly remarkable :D

Swordsman

March 18th, 2004, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

John 3

16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

You're talking about free will and you bring up John 3:16? This verse is one used by the Limited Atonement camp. The ones who believe attain eternal life. He gave His son "that whoever believes". You see? He gave Him up for us, the redeemed.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
if it's irresistible then it's not willingly. that's a contradiction in terms. willingly implies its NOT irresistible.

Sure it is, just not by my will, but thine O Lord. His will preceds ours always. If I were ever able to turn to God on my own (willingly, as you call it) then I have a reason to boast. That's called salvation by works. And that is not Biblical. Ask Sozo.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
anyone who asks will.

True, but ultimately it is He who chooses us. No one comes unto me, but the Father draw him No where does this imply that we can DO anything to come to Christ. Salvation by grace. Irresistable grace.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
nope. faith comes by hearing the word. Romans 10:17.

Exactly. His Word builds our faith. Which is what I meant when I said God creates our faith. It isn't developed BY us, but by His Word.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
you're using Romans 3:23 to establish total depravity? lol that's a good one. all Romans 3:23 says is that every one of us has sinned at least one point in our life and thus have fallen short of God's glory which is perfection.

No it doesn't. It implies we are all born sinners. Your first sin did not condemn you. The original sin condemned you thousands of years ago. (oh, and its good that I'm seeing your emotions in here by your "lol". I'm happy to entertain you.)

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
that's really sad when you believe in a doctrine that destines many unborn babies to hell just for being born. :shocked:

Mark 7:21-23 says For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

You do not have to teach a child how to sin (lie, steal, deceive, etc..) It is their nature.

It isn't a doctrine that destines people to hell. It is their sinful nature. Man is Totally Depraved. Not perfect, which is the only other state of being.

Z Man

March 18th, 2004, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

lol i had to laugh when i read that. you just established that one cannot submit to God's will in any way, shape, or form and then you try to send out this message of "humbling yourself".

the irony of this is truly remarkable :D
That sentence wasn't in reference to non-believers; it was talking about people like you. If you, and other's who believe salvation is up to men, would humble yourselves and realize man's total depravity, then God's grace will become so much more amazing and appreciative.

Besides, that's all you could think of for a reply to Piper's description of Total Depravity? Lame.... :rolleyes:

God_Is_Truth

March 18th, 2004, 11:36 AM

You're talking about free will and you bring up John 3:16? This verse is one used by the Limited Atonement camp. The ones who believe attain eternal life. He gave His son "that whoever believes". You see? He gave Him up for us, the redeemed.

there are other verses i can use to establish free will but i kinda like John 3:16. i like it because of the word "whosever". in the calvinist reading, there is no "whosever". instead it's replaced with "your special elect forechosen from eternity past who you gave irresistible grace so that they have to believe".

on the other hand, the other view of "whosoever" means just that. it means it's completely open to literally "whosoever believes" meaning it's a choice available to everyone. THAT is why we can't boast. we didn't do anything "special" that everyone else can't do. everyone can do it if they want to, they just choose not to.

Sure it is, just not by my will, but thine O Lord. His will preceds ours always. If I were ever able to turn to God on my own (willingly, as you call it) then I have a reason to boast. That's called salvation by works. And that is not Biblical. Ask Sozo.

then it's not OUR willingly. it's GOD's willingly. and as i already explained, there is ZERO room to boast BECAUSE ALL are capable. and no, it's not works because faith is self emptying, the exact opposite of works. it's about trusting in God's works, not our own.

True, but ultimately it is He who chooses us. No one comes unto me, but the Father draw him No where does this imply that we can DO anything to come to Christ. Salvation by grace. Irresistable grace.

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

Exactly. His Word builds our faith. Which is what I meant when I said God creates our faith. It isn't developed BY us, but by His Word.

i believe that we all have faith in something. some have faith in evolution, some in the idea that we can't know if God exists or not, some in that all that exists is what exists, some that there are a plurality of Gods, some that you must do a, b, and c to get to heaven etc. thus, to me, Romans 10:17 is stating that one can't have faith in Jesus UNTIlL they hear about Jesus. and i haven't found anywhere else in the bible that states a reason to think otherwise.

No it doesn't. It implies we are all born sinners. Your first sin did not condemn you. The original sin condemned you thousands of years ago. (oh, and its good that I'm seeing your emotions in here by your "lol". I'm happy to entertain you.)

the original sin condemned my thousands of years ago? talk about injustice! no, God condemns me for my sin and my sin alone. the result of adam's sin is the sinful nature which is inherited by everyone and causes the sinning of all people such that none are perfect and all fall short of the glory of God.

ah yes, emotions. gotta love those :D seriously though, this place gets kinda boring if one doesn't use humor or other forms of expression in their posts.

Mark 7:21-23 says For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.

You do not have to teach a child how to sin (lie, steal, deceive, etc..) It is their nature.

it's their NATURE. i agree. the sinful NATURE. they are not born sinners though. they are born with a natural propensity towards sin. they are not born condemned.

It isn't a doctrine that destines people to hell. It is their sinful nature. Man is Totally Depraved. Not perfect, which is the only other state of being.

calvinism is a doctrine that teaches that men are unconditionally predestined to hell. total depravity does NOT mean the same as not perfect.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

5Solas=Truth

March 18th, 2004, 11:36 AM

God is truth, you wrote
no problem about that source. i was not implying that calvinists think of themselves as the "special chosen" so to speak, only that it's possible for them to boast about it if they wanted to. it certainly seems to be what their doctrine of unconditional election teaches.

If what I posted re there being nothing inherent within a particular believer that leads to their being elected does not answer your it certainly seems to be what their doctrine of unconditional election teaches", I confess I do not know what will. But hey, here are a few other references saying the same thing:

The Belgic Confession of Faith, Article XVI
Eternal Election
We believe that, all the posterity of Adam being thus fallen into perdition and ruin by the sin of our first parents, God then did manifest Himself such as He is; that is to say, merciful and just: merciful, since He delivers and preserves from this perdition all whom He in His eternal and unchangeable counsel of mere goodness has elected in Christ Jesus our Lord, without any respect to their works; just, in leaving others in the fall and perdition wherein they have involved themselves.

The Canons of Dort, First Head of Doctrine
Divine Election and Reprobation - Articles of Faith
Article 7
Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He has out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault from their primitive state of rectitude into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect and the foundation of salvation. This elect number, though by nature neither better nor more deserving than others, but with them involved in one common misery, God has decreed to give to Christ to be saved by Him, and effectually to call and draw them to His communion by His Word and Spirit; to bestow upon them true faith, justification, and sanctification; and having powerfully preserved them in the fellowship of His Son, finally to glorify them for the demonstration of His mercy, and for the praise of the riches of His glorious grace; as it is written: Even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love: having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved (Eph. 1:4, 5,6). And elsewhere: Whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified (Rom. 8:30).

The Heidelberg Catechism, Lord's Day 23

Q60: How are you righteous before God?
A60: Only by true faith in Jesus Christ:[1] that is, although my conscience accuses me, that I have grievously sinned against all the commandments of God, and have never kept any of them,[2] and am still prone always to all evil;[3] yet God, without any merit of mine,[4] of mere grace,[5] grants and imputes to me the perfect satisfaction,[6] righteousness and holiness of Christ,[7] as if I had never committed nor had any sins, and had myself accomplished all the obedience which Christ has fulfilled for me;[8] if only I accept such benefit with a believing heart.[9]

1. Rom. 3:21-25; Gal. 2:16; Eph. 2:8-9; Phil. 3:9
2. Rom. 3:9-10
3. Rom. 7:23
4. Titus 3:5
5. Rom. 3:24; Eph. 2:8
6. I John 2:2
7. I John 2:1; Rom. 4:4-5; II Cor. 5:19
8. II Cor. 5:21
9. John 3:18; Rom. 3:28; 10:10

Q61: Why do you say that you are righteous by faith only?
A61: Not that I am acceptable to God on account of the worthiness of my faith, but because only the satisfaction, righteousness and holiness of Christ is my righteousness before God;[1] and I can receive the same and make it my own in no other way than by faith only.[2]

1. I Cor. 1:30; 2:2
2. I John 5:10; Isa. 53:5; Gal. 3:22; Rom. 4:16

The Thirty-nine Articles of Religion, Article XI
Of the Justification of Man
We are accounted righteous before God, only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by Faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by Faith only, is a most wholesome Doctrine, and very full of comfort, as more largely expressed in the Homily of Justification.

The Savoy Declaration of Faith and Order, Chapter III
Of God's Eternal Decree
V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ unto everlasting glory, out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions or causes moving him thereunto, and all to the praise of his glorious grace.

Blessings

God_Is_Truth

March 18th, 2004, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Z Man

That sentence wasn't in reference to non-believers; it was talking about people like you. If you, and other's who believe salvation is up to men, would humble yourselves and realize man's total depravity, then God's grace will become so much more amazing and appreciative.

Besides, that's all you could think of for a reply to Piper's description of Total Depravity? Lame.... :rolleyes:

you should have clarified the sentence then. it sure sounded like it was still towards non believers. salvation is up to God. he is the only one who saves us. it's up to us to decide if we want God to save us or not. we can either say yes, accept the forgivness of sins and God will forgive us, or we can say no, and give God the finger so to speak.

and no, that's not all i could think of to reply to Pipers description of total depravity. it's just that we've been through that topic before and i didn't feel like repeating myself.

God_Is_Truth

March 18th, 2004, 11:45 AM

5Solas=Truth,

i think i understand the doctrine of unconditional election pretty well. if you'll notice though, i even dropped the point out of discussion between me and Z Man because he made some good points.

however, that point was not the reason i find it to be so horrible. it's the other part that is undeniable if one affirms unconditional election; that is the unconditional predestining to hell and damnation of every other individual who was not "elected".

Calvin himself acknowledged this:

All men are not created for the same end; but some are fore-ordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. So according as every man was created for the one end or the other, we say, he was elected, that is, predestined to life, or reprobated, that is, predestined to damnation (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 21, section 1).

Many indeed (thinking to excuse God) own election, and yet deny reprobation; but this is quite silly and childish. For without reprobation, election itself cannot stand; whom God passes by, those he reprobates. It is one and the same thing (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 23, section 1).

THAT is what i find so horrible about the doctrine. the idea of a loving, merciful, forgiving, wants everyone to be saved, died for all, all good God unconditionally predestining many, many men to hell. i cannot believe in such.

Z Man

March 18th, 2004, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

salvation is up to God. he is the only one who saves us. it's up to us to decide if we want God to save us or not.
Make up your mind. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's one or the other; God saves us, or we save ourselves. Now which one is it? Is salvation up to God, or up to us? It can't be both.

Z Man

March 18th, 2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

5Solas=Truth,

i think i understand the doctrine of unconditional election pretty well. if you'll notice though, i even dropped the point out of discussion between me and Z Man because he made some good points.

however, that point was not the reason i find it to be so horrible. it's the other part that is undeniable if one affirms unconditional election; that is the unconditional predestining to hell and damnation of every other individual who was not "elected".

Calvin himself acknowledged this:

All men are not created for the same end; but some are fore-ordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. So according as every man was created for the one end or the other, we say, he was elected, that is, predestined to life, or reprobated, that is, predestined to damnation (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 21, section 1).

Many indeed (thinking to excuse God) own election, and yet deny reprobation; but this is quite silly and childish. For without reprobation, election itself cannot stand; whom God passes by, those he reprobates. It is one and the same thing (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 23, section 1).

THAT is what i find so horrible about the doctrine. the idea of a loving, merciful, forgiving, wants everyone to be saved, died for all, all good God unconditionally predestining many, many men to hell. i cannot believe in such.
My friend and I were discussing the same issue last night. When I was first introduced to this doctrine, I too felt that there wasn't something right; as if it was "sad". I thought to myself, "But what about all those that go to hell? Isn't God being unfair to them?"

But that's when it hit me; God's not being unfair for sending people to hell. On the contrary, it can be questioned if God is unfair in saving me! How can God even consider saving mankind period, knowing full well that we are nothing more than sinners? Thus, it's wrong to consider God unfair for damning; but rather, it's amazing to think that God could even consider salvation to men! Isn't He being unfair in saving us despite our sins? Thank God He chose to! And I will continue to be in astonishment and amazement at His wonderful and amazing grace that has saved me from my sins.

Futhermore, the emotion produced in discovering our depravity and God's election does conjur up feelings of "sadness". My heart goes out to all those who do not know Christ. Like Paul, I too would give up my salvation for one lost soul, that they may know God and His TRUTH. I don't deserve what God has freely given me, and my heart is forever grateful for His eternal gift. And I am more than willing, and even desire, to tell other's, to let them know what God has done in my life and what He can do in theirs as well, if they will believe.

God_Is_Truth

March 18th, 2004, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Z Man

Make up your mind. You can't have your cake and eat it too. It's one or the other; God saves us, or we save ourselves. Now which one is it? Is salvation up to God, or up to us? It can't be both.

God had declared to save everyone who puts their faith in Jesus. so, based on this, it is God who saves us.

however, because he has given this opportunity to all people, it's up to us on whether or not we want God to save us. so in this sense, it's up to us, but only because God has give us the opportunity to do so.

apart from God, we are completely lost and could never be saved.

God_Is_Truth

March 18th, 2004, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by Z Man

My friend and I were discussing the same issue last night. When I was first introduced to this doctrine, I too felt that there wasn't something right; as if it was "sad". I thought to myself, "But what about all those that go to hell? Isn't God being unfair to them?"

But that's when it hit me; God's not being unfair for sending people to hell. On the contrary, it can be questioned if God is unfair in saving me! How can God even consider saving mankind period, knowing full well that we are nothing more than sinners? Thus, it's wrong to consider God unfair for damning; but rather, it's amazing to think that God could even consider salvation to men! Isn't He being unfair in saving us despite our sins? Thank God He chose to! And I will continue to be in astonishment and amazement at His wonderful and amazing grace that has saved me from my sins.

God is all loving. God is all good. God is holy and just and perfect. NONE of these give any reason whatsoever for God to UNCONDITIONALLY PREDESTINE a person to hell. the ONLY reason that could possibly be is that he is sovereign and can do as he pleases. but think, IS GOD GOING TO DO THAT WHICH IS COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO HIS CHARACTER IN EVERY WAY?

Z Man

March 18th, 2004, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

God is all loving. God is all good. God is holy and just and perfect. NONE of these give any reason whatsoever for God to UNCONDITIONALLY PREDESTINE a person to hell. the ONLY reason that could possibly be is that he is sovereign and can do as he pleases. but think, IS GOD GOING TO DO THAT WHICH IS COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO HIS CHARACTER IN EVERY WAY?
Who is man that they should deserve anything more than damnation??? We are nothing more than God's creation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing in His sight! He is the Almighty God who can do anything; we are mere dust! He is not obligated to do anything for us.

God_Is_Truth

March 18th, 2004, 12:03 PM

Originally posted by Z Man

Who is man that they should deserve anything more than damnation??? We are nothing more than God's creation; all the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing in His sight! He is the Almighty God who can do anything; we are mere dust! He is not obligated to do anything for us.

please answer my question:

IS GOD GOING TO DO THAT WHICH IS COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO HIS CHARACTER IN EVERY WAY?

Z Man

March 18th, 2004, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

please answer my question:

IS GOD GOING TO DO THAT WHICH IS COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO HIS CHARACTER IN EVERY WAY?
Of course not! But you talk as if man is holding God in check of His character! As if He is suppose to love us in order to be of character!

God_Is_Truth

March 18th, 2004, 12:08 PM

Originally posted by Z Man

Of course not! But you talk as if man is holding God in check of His character! As if He is suppose to love us in order to be of character!

thank you. God is going to do things were are consistent with his character. i am glad that we agree on that. now please tell me which aspect of his character is related to "unconditionally predestining many, many men to hell".

and by the way, i'm not attempting to keep God in check so to speak, rather i'm attempting to keep our doctrine in check with what we know about God's character.

Z Man

March 18th, 2004, 12:11 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

now please tell me which aspect of his character is related to "unconditionally predestining many, many men to hell".
JUSTICE

smaller

March 18th, 2004, 12:19 PM

"Mercy triumphs OVER justice" James

Of course neither side believes this...

Z Man

March 18th, 2004, 12:41 PM

Originally posted by smaller

"Mercy triumphs OVER justice" James

Of course neither side believes this...
For those who believe. Since Jesus came and died for us, those who believe shall now recieve mercy instead of justice. But those who do not believe, justice still prevails.

God_Is_Truth

March 18th, 2004, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by Z Man

JUSTICE

now remember, your doctrine says "unconditional" predestination. you yourself admitted that God doesn't send people to hell because of their sins but because of God's own pleasure. so, justice cannot be the reason why men are sent to hell based on your doctrine. try again.

Z Man

March 18th, 2004, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

now remember, your doctrine says "unconditional" predestination. you yourself admitted that God doesn't send people to hell because of their sins but because of God's own pleasure.
Where?
so, justice cannot be the reason why men are sent to hell based on your doctrine. try again.
If you don't like justice, then how bout for God's glory. That's His ultimate purpose; self-exhaltation. You may ask, "How can sending people to hell glorify God?". Well, how would you know what salvation was unless you knew about damnation?

smaller

March 18th, 2004, 03:31 PM

So when Jesus said love your enemies and bless those who persecute you he was only kidding eh Z?

What Jesus really meant was YOU have to love your enemies and bless those who persecute you BUT I get to burn my enemies forever in fire?

And when Jesus asked God to forgive His murderers He was only saying wait until you die and I'll burn you forver you scum, eh Z?

Romans 11:32 is only "believers" and not ALL eh Z?

etc.etc.

God_Is_Truth

March 18th, 2004, 03:59 PM

Where?

taken from post #54 by Z Man

God destines people wherever He wishes. Not according to man's actions or will does He consider His deceisions and purposes; rather, according to His pleasure and purposes do all things happen and are all things created (emphasis mine)

If you don't like justice, then how bout for God's glory. That's His ultimate purpose; self-exhaltation. You may ask, "How can sending people to hell glorify God?". Well, how would you know what salvation was unless you knew about damnation?

and what part of his character would that be? what part of his character motivates him to do something SOLELY for his own glory?

helmet84

March 18th, 2004, 10:20 PM

Proverbs 16:4

"The LORD hath made all things for himself : yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

Z Man

March 18th, 2004, 11:06 PM

Originally posted by smaller

So when Jesus said love your enemies and bless those who persecute you he was only kidding eh Z?

What Jesus really meant was YOU have to love your enemies and bless those who persecute you BUT I get to burn my enemies forever in fire?

And when Jesus asked God to forgive His murderers He was only saying wait until you die and I'll burn you forver you scum, eh Z?

Romans 11:32 is only "believers" and not ALL eh Z?

etc.etc.
Yeah, yeah, yeah... You're a universalist, and I'm not. We get the picture...

Z Man

March 18th, 2004, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

and what part of his character would that be? what part of his character motivates him to do something SOLELY for his own glory?
His love for Himself.

The reason God created us wasn't for redemption, or for us to live happy lives, or to benefit us in any way; the sole purpose for God creating anything was for His pleasure and His glory alone. Everything He does and has purposed is meant to self-exhalt Himself, not to make man "feel" happy, blessed, and loved.

LightSon

March 18th, 2004, 11:52 PM

Originally posted by Z Man

Yeah, yeah, yeah... You're a universalist, and I'm not. We get the picture...

:chuckle:

:darwinsm:

I think you are safe Zee. Had you dismissed Sozo like that, he'd tell you to go to hell.

smaller will be frustrated by not having that option. ;)

God_Is_Truth

March 19th, 2004, 01:28 AM

Originally posted by Z Man

His love for Himself.

The reason God created us wasn't for redemption, or for us to live happy lives, or to benefit us in any way; the sole purpose for God creating anything was for His pleasure and His glory alone. Everything He does and has purposed is meant to self-exhalt Himself, not to make man "feel" happy, blessed, and loved.

the nature of love is to give, not receive. love would not be just about receiving because it's the exact opposite of it's nature.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Love is also NOT self seeking.

1 Cor 13
4Love is patient, love is kind . It does not envy, it does not boast , it is not proud . 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hope, always perseveres.
8Love never fails.

thus, you cannot use love as the part of God's character that would motivate him to unconditionally predestine many,many people to hell solely for his own glory. please try again.

Z Man

March 19th, 2004, 09:40 AM

Originally posted by LightSon

:chuckle:

:darwinsm:

I think you are safe Zee. Had you dismissed Sozo like that, he'd tell you to go to hell.

smaller will be frustrated by not having that option. ;)
:chuckle:

Z Man

March 19th, 2004, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

the nature of love is to give, not receive. love would not be just about receiving because it's the exact opposite of it's nature.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Love is also NOT self seeking.

1 Cor 13
4Love is patient, love is kind . It does not envy, it does not boast , it is not proud . 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hope, always perseveres.
8Love never fails.

thus, you cannot use love as the part of God's character that would motivate him to unconditionally predestine many,many people to hell solely for his own glory. please try again.
God_is_Truth,

God's love is self-seeking. If it weren't, where would we place our happiness? If God didn't love Himself, then how can we be happy in Him? God is the only being in the universe in which self-exaltation is a good thing. In fact, it's neccessary.

The description of love in Corinthians is meant for us, not God. He doesn't follow the same rules we do. He's not constricted, or limited by the commands that we must follow. For God to love Himself is to love what matters most. To glorify Himself and self-exalt Himself forever is what makes us truely happy. We find our upmost joy in God, and when we are most satisfied in Him, He's most glorified in us.

He didn't create man to "give" out love to them; He created man for His own purpose and for His own glory. His love is for Himself, and that's what makes us happy. He created us with a weakness that longs to know Him and love Him, and the only way to do that is if God glorifies Himself. If we are selfish and love ourselves, we are depriving ourself of the only love that matters; God. But for God to love and self-exalt Himself is to selfishly give Himself and to display His love among His creation. Our desire is to see Him exalted.

smaller

March 19th, 2004, 10:50 AM

Interesting how Z shuns the obvious problems with turning ALL into APHEW...

and Hey Z and lightson,,,

that which speaks through you is destined to hell...and you are it's slaves...

but at least some have hope, even for you who represent the greatest SIN and the greatest EVIL

LightSon

March 19th, 2004, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by smaller

Interesting how Z shuns the obvious problems with turning ALL into APHEW...

and Hey Z and lightson,,,

that which speaks through you is destined to hell...and you are it's slaves...

but at least some have hope, even for you who represent the greatest SIN and the greatest EVIL
Right.
I know you are not speaking to me, but to the evasive badguy within. Thanks.

(incidentally, speaking for me and not at all for "them", I am a willing slave of Jesus Christ. He must increase; I must decrease.)

Z Man

March 19th, 2004, 11:42 AM

God_Is_Truth

March 19th, 2004, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Z Man

God_is_Truth,

God's love is self-seeking. If it weren't, where would we place our happiness? If God didn't love Himself, then how can we be happy in Him? God is the only being in the universe in which self-exaltation is a good thing. In fact, it's neccessary.

The description of love in Corinthians is meant for us, not God. He doesn't follow the same rules we do. He's not constricted, or limited by the commands that we must follow. For God to love Himself is to love what matters most. To glorify Himself and self-exalt Himself forever is what makes us truely happy. We find our upmost joy in God, and when we are most satisfied in Him, He's most glorified in us.

He didn't create man to "give" out love to them; He created man for His own purpose and for His own glory. His love is for Himself, and that's what makes us happy. He created us with a weakness that longs to know Him and love Him, and the only way to do that is if God glorifies Himself. If we are selfish and love ourselves, we are depriving ourself of the only love that matters; God. But for God to love and self-exalt Himself is to selfishly give Himself and to display His love among His creation. Our desire is to see Him exalted.

Z Man,

what does it mean then when it says "God is love". please explain why love becomes a contradictory thing (not self seeking for us and self seeking for God). do you believe that God follows the "rules" of his own character? do you believe that the "love" part of his character is the same "love" we know of or do you think it's a contradictory one? please explain why you think Paul meant just the love that we are to display and why he would've thought it different from the "love" God has as a part of his character. what part of the passage indicates that Paul was not talking about love for what love is and is instead just talking about the ways "we are to love" being different from "God's love"?

lots of questions as you can see. i guess just cause your explanation doesn't make too much sense to me. when Paul talks about love i see him actually talking about what love really is. i got no indiciation that it was different from the love God has as a part of his character. how then could we be like him in love if he's different in love than us?

also, i think i missed the part in your post where you talked about the nature of love. did you cover it and i missed it? if not please forgive my overlooking and correctly point me to where you did.

however, my point was that God redeemed us out of love. now, is love partial or impartial? or even better, is God's love partial or impartial? if impartial, then wouldn't it mean that he died for the whole world? if partial, then why kind of love is that? does love keep a vaccine from being used on someone who needs it and wants it?

in summary, i just don't see how love, in nature being not self seeking as what Paul was describing and the fact that God is love, as being the part of God's character that would do something completely contrary to the rest of his character JUST for his glory.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 19th, 2004, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Z Man,

what does it mean then when it says "God is love". please explain why love becomes a contradictory thing (not self seeking for us and self seeking for God). do you believe that God follows the "rules" of his own character? do you believe that the "love" part of his character is the same "love" we know of or do you think it's a contradictory one? please explain why you think Paul meant just the love that we are to display and why he would've thought it different from the "love" God has as a part of his character. what part of the passage indicates that Paul was not talking about love for what love is and is instead just talking about the ways "we are to love" being different from "God's love"?

lots of questions as you can see. i guess just cause your explanation doesn't make too much sense to me. when Paul talks about love i see him actually talking about what love really is. i got no indiciation that it was different from the love God has as a part of his character. how then could we be like him in love if he's different in love than us?

also, i think i missed the part in your post where you talked about the nature of love. did you cover it and i missed it? if not please forgive my overlooking and correctly point me to where you did.

however, my point was that God redeemed us out of love. now, is love partial or impartial? or even better, is God's love partial or impartial? if impartial, then wouldn't it mean that he died for the whole world? if partial, then why kind of love is that? does love keep a vaccine from being used on someone who needs it and wants it?

in summary, i just don't see how love, in nature being not self seeking as what Paul was describing and the fact that God is love, as being the part of God's character that would do something completely contrary to the rest of his character JUST for his glory.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth
That's a lot of questions! :D

What helped me to understand this better was a reading from John Piper's book Desiring God. He does a great job of using scripture and common sense/logic to give an explanation for the answers to your questions. I'll quote some of it here, and I hope you find it a blessing and as rewarding and helpful as I did:
Desiring God by John Piper
Chapter 1 - The Happiness of God

The chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy himself forever.

The reason this may sound strange is that we are more accustomed to think about our duty than God's design. And when we do ask about God's design we are too prone to describe it with ourselves at the center of God's affections. We may say, for example, his design is to redeem the world. Or to save sinners. Or to restore creation. Or the like.

But God's saving designs are penultimate, not ultimate. Redemption, salvation, and restoration are not God's ultimate goal. These he performs for the sake of something greater: namely, the enjoyment he has in glorifying himself. The bedrock foundation of Christian Hedonism is not God's allegiance to us, but to himself.

If God were not infinitely devoted to the preservation, display, and enjoyment of his own glory, we could have no hope of finding happiness in him. But if he does in fact employ all his sovereign power and infinite wisdom to maximize the enjoyment of his own glory, then we have a foundation on which to stand and rejoice.

"Love Seeks Not Its Own" -- Except In The Joy Of Others.
God does all things for his own sake. "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it . . . my glory I will not give to another."(Isaiah 48:11)

This is love, because in pursuing the praise of his name in the hearts of his people, he commands the very thing that completes our joy.

God is the one being in the universe for whom self-exaltation is the highest virtue and the most loving act

The rules of humility that belong to a creature cannot apply in the same way to its Creator.

Ultimate self-denial would be idolatry in God.

By upholding his own glory he upholds the groud of our joy. And that is love.
[One] reason people stumble over the teaching that God exalts his own glory and seeks to be praised by his people is that the Bible teaches us not to be like that. For example, the Bible says that "Love seeks not its own" ( 1 Corinthians 13:5). How can God be loving and yet be utterly devoted to "seeking his own" glory and praise and joy? How can God be for us if he is so utterly for himself?

The answer I propose is this: Because God is unique as an all-glorious, totally self-sufficient Being, he must be for himself if he is to be for us. The rules of humility that belong to a creature cannot apply in the same way to its Creator. If God should turn away from himself as the Source of infinite joy, he would cease to be God. He would deny the infinite worth of his own glory. He would imply that there is something more valuable outside himself. He would commit idolatry.

This would be no gain for us. For where can we go when our God has become unrighteous? Where will we find a Rock of integrity in the universe when the heart of God has ceased to value supremely the supremely valuable? Where shall we turn with our adoration when God himself has forsaken the claims of infinite worth and beauty?

No, we do not turn God's self-exaltation into love by demanding that God cease to be God. Instead we must come to see that God is love precisely because he relentlessly pursues the praises of his name in the hearts of his people.

Delight Is Incomplete Until It Is Expressed.

Consider this question: In view of God's infinite power and wisdom and beauty, what would his love to a human being involve? Or to put it another way: What could God give us to enjoy that would prove him most loving? There is only one possible answer: himself! If he withholds himself from our contemplation and companionship, no matter what else he gives us, he is not loving.

Now we are on the brink of what for me was a life-changing discovery. What do we all do when we are given or shown something beautiful or excellent? We praise it! We praise new little babies: "Oh, look at that nice round head! And all that hair! And her hands, aren't they perfect!" We praise a lover after a long absence: "Your eyes are like a cloudless sky! Your hair like forest silk!" We praise a grand slam in the bottom of the ninth when we are down by three. We praise the October trees along the banks of the St. Croix.

But the great discovery for me, as I said, came when reading "A Word about Praise" in C. S. Lewis's Reflections on the Psalms. His recorded thoughts-born from wrestling with the idea that God not only wants our praise but commands it--bear looking at again, in fuller form:

But the most obvious fact about praise-whether of God or any thing-strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honor. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless (sometimes even if) shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise-lovers praising their mistresses, readers their favorite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favorite game-praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. I had not noticed how the humblest, and at the same time most balanced and capacious, minds, praised most, while the cranks, misfits and malcontents praised least . . .

I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise what ever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: "Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?" The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value.

I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation. It is not out of compliment that lovers keep on telling one another how beautiful they are; the delight is incomplete till it is expressed.

There is the solution! We praise what we enjoy because the delight is incomplete until it is expressed in praise. If we were not allowed to speak of what we value, and celebrate what we love, and praise what we admire, our joy would not be full. So if God loves us enough to make our joy full, he must not only give us himself; he must also win from us the praise of our hearts-not because he needs to shore up some weakness in himself or compensate for some deficiency, but because he loves us and seeks the fullness of our joy that can be found only in knowing and praising him, the most magnificent of all Beings. If he is truly for us he must be for himself!

God is the one Being in all the universe for whom seeking his own praise is the ultimately loving act. For him, self-exaltation is the highest virtue. When he does all things ``for the praise of his glory," he preserves for us and offers to us the only thing in all the world which can satisfy our longings. God is for us! And the foundation of this love is that God has been, is now, and always will be, for himself.

Summary
The happiness of God in God is the foundation of our happiness in God.

If God did not joyfully uphold and display his glory the ground of our joy would be gone.

God's pursuit of praise from us and our pursuit of pleasure in him are in perfect harmony.

For God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him.
God is absolutely sovereign. "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases!" (Psalm 115:3). Therefore he is not frustrated. He rejoices in all his works when he contemplates them as colors of the magnificent mosaic of redemptive history. He is an unshakably happy God.

His happiness is the delight he has in himself. Before creation he rejoiced in the image of his glory in the person of his Son. Then the joy of God "went public" in the works of creation and redemption. These works delight the heart of God because they reflect his glory. He does everything he does to preserve and display that glory, for in this his soul rejoices.

All the works of God culminate in the praises of his redeemed people. The climax of his happiness is the delight he takes in the echoes of his excellence in the praises of the saints. This praise is the consummation of our own joy in God. Therefore God's pursuit of praise from us and our pursuit of pleasure in him are the same pursuit. This is the great gospel!

God_Is_Truth

March 19th, 2004, 05:17 PM

Z Man,

wow, what a long quote! :D

ok, so God is about seeking his own glory because he's the highest good, the supreme highness, the ultimate power etc. and to do otherwise would be idolatry. but i'm confused on where love ties in to it. he mentioned it once or twice but it was kinda fuzzy. can you give me a clear summary statement of how what he was talking about is love?

Z Man

March 20th, 2004, 12:22 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Z Man,

wow, what a long quote! :D

ok, so God is about seeking his own glory because he's the highest good, the supreme highness, the ultimate power etc. and to do otherwise would be idolatry. but i'm confused on where love ties in to it. he mentioned it once or twice but it was kinda fuzzy. can you give me a clear summary statement of how what he was talking about is love?
Are you serious? I don't know what to tell you other than maybe to re-read the quote. The whole passage is dedicated precisely in answering your question! If for some reason that passage did not clarify or answer your question concerning "love", then you need to expound on what "love" you are talking about. Anyways, here's a brief statement taken from the Piper's quote:

God does all things for his own sake. "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it . . . my glory I will not give to another."(Isaiah 48:11). This is love, because in pursuing the praise of his name in the hearts of his people, he commands the very thing that completes our joy. By upholding his own glory he upholds the groud of our joy. And that is love.

God_Is_Truth

March 20th, 2004, 12:43 AM

Originally posted by Z Man
God does all things for his own sake. "For my own sake, for my own sake, I do it . . . my glory I will not give to another."(Isaiah 48:11). This is love, because in pursuing the praise of his name in the hearts of his people, he commands the very thing that completes our joy. By upholding his own glory he upholds the groud of our joy. And that is love.

ok, that's the part that confuses me. i read the statement there and i don't see how that is love. i don't see how "pursuing the praise of his name in the hearts of his people, he commands the very thing that completes our joy. By upholding his own glory he upholds the groud of our joy." is love.

perhaps i'm just overlooking it. i read through it and see good things, to be sure. but i don't see the connection of how it's love. how is "by upholding his own glory he upholds the ground of our joy" love?

Z Man

March 20th, 2004, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

ok, that's the part that confuses me. i read the statement there and i don't see how that is love. i don't see how "pursuing the praise of his name in the hearts of his people, he commands the very thing that completes our joy. By upholding his own glory he upholds the groud of our joy." is love.

perhaps i'm just overlooking it. i read through it and see good things, to be sure. but i don't see the connection of how it's love. how is "by upholding his own glory he upholds the ground of our joy" love?
What's the one thing that makes us happy? It's Himself! For God to command us to praise Him, and for Him to display His glory is what true love really is. Job understood this when he was shown God's absolute sovereignty and glory. He was given something better than riches and worldly possessions; he was shown the glory of God! And Job was a better, happier man because of it.

Here's some more from the same chapter of the book from Piper that I did not include in the first passage I used earlier. Maybe it can shed some light on your confusion. I also re-instated a passage that Piper quotes from C.S. Lewis that explains the idea behind praise, just in case you didn't see it earlier or whatever. Hope it helps. God bless.
Desiring God by John Piper
Chapter 1 - The Happiness of God

Is He Vain Or Loving To Command Our Praise?

The Bible is replete with commands to praise God. God commands it because this is the ultimate goal of all he does-"to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed" (2 Thessalonians 1:10). Three times in Ephesians 1 this great aim is proclaimed: God "predestined us in love to be his sons . . . to the praise of the glory of his grace!" ( 1:5-6); "We . . . have been predestined and appointed to live for the praise of his glory" (1:12); the Holy Spirit "is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory" ( 1:14).

All the different ways God has chosen to display his glory in creation and redemption seem to reach their culmination in the praises of his redeemed people. God governs the world with glory precisely that he might be admired, marveled at, exalted and praised. The climax of his happiness is the delight he takes in the echoes of his excellence in the praises of the saints.

But again and again I have found that people stumble over this truth. People do not like to hear that God is uppermost in his own affections, or that he does all things for his own glory, or that he exalts himself and seeks the praise of men.

Why? There are at least two reasons. One is that we just don't like people who are like that. The other is that the Bible teaches us not to be like that. Let's examine these objections and see if they can apply to God.

Is God A Second-Hander?

First, we just don't like people who seem to be enamored by their own intelligence or strength or skill or good looks or wealth. We don't like scholars who try to show off their specialized knowledge, or who recite for us all their recent publications. We don't like businessmen who talk about how shrewdly they have invested their money and how they stayed right on top of the market to get in low and out high. We don't like children to play one-upmanship (Mine's bigger! Mine's faster! Mine's prettier!). And unless we are one of them, we disapprove of men and women who dress not functionally and simply, but to attract attention with the latest style.

Why don't we like all that? I think at root it's because those people are inauthentic. They are what Ayn Rand calls "second-handers." They don't live from the joy that comes through achieving what they value for its own sake. Instead, they live secondhand from the compliments of others. They have one eye on their action and one on their audience. We simply do not admire second-handers. We admire people who are secure and composed enough that they don't need to shore up their weaknesses and compensate for their deficiencies by trying to get compliments.

It stands to reason, then, that any teaching that puts God in the category of a second-hander will be unacceptable to Christians. And for many the teaching that God seeks to show off his glory and get the praise of men does in fact put him in the category of a second-hander. But should it?

One thing is certain: God is not weak and has no deficiencies. "All things are from him and through him and to him" (Romans 11:36). "He is not served by human hands as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all men life and breath and everything" ( Acts 17:25). Everything that exists owes its existence to him, and no one can add anything to him which is not already flowing from him. Therefore God's zeal to seek his own glory and to be praised by men cannot be owing to his need to shore up some weakness or compensate for some deficiency. He may look, at first glance, like one of the second-handers, but he is not like them, and the superficial similarity must be explained another way.

Delight Is Incomplete Until It Is Expressed.

Consider this question: In view of God's infinite power and wisdom and beauty, what would his love to a human being involve? Or to put it another way: What could God give us to enjoy that would prove him most loving? There is only one possible answer: himself! If he withholds himself from our contemplation and companionship, no matter what else he gives us, he is not loving.

Now we are on the brink of what for me was a life-changing discovery. What do we all do when we are given or shown something beautiful or excellent? We praise it! We praise new little babies: "Oh, look at that nice round head! And all that hair! And her hands, aren't they perfect!" We praise a lover after a long absence: "Your eyes are like a cloudless sky! Your hair like forest silk!" We praise a grand slam in the bottom of the ninth when we are down by three. We praise the October trees along the banks of the St. Croix.

But the great discovery for me, as I said, came when reading "A Word about Praise" in C. S. Lewis's Reflections on the Psalms. His recorded thoughts-born from wrestling with the idea that God not only wants our praise but commands it--bear looking at again, in fuller form:

But the most obvious fact about praise-whether of God or any thing-strangely escaped me. I thought of it in terms of compliment, approval, or the giving of honor. I had never noticed that all enjoyment spontaneously overflows into praise unless (sometimes even if) shyness or the fear of boring others is deliberately brought in to check it. The world rings with praise-lovers praising their mistresses, readers their favorite poet, walkers praising the countryside, players praising their favorite game-praise of weather, wines, dishes, actors, motors, horses, colleges, countries, historical personages, children, flowers, mountains, rare stamps, rare beetles, even sometimes politicians or scholars. I had not noticed how the humblest, and at the same time most balanced and capacious, minds, praised most, while the cranks, misfits and malcontents praised least . . .

I had not noticed either that just as men spontaneously praise what ever they value, so they spontaneously urge us to join them in praising it: "Isn't she lovely? Wasn't it glorious? Don't you think that magnificent?" The Psalmists in telling everyone to praise God are doing what all men do when they speak of what they care about. My whole, more general, difficulty about the praise of God depended on my absurdly denying to us, as regards the supremely Valuable, what we delight to do, what indeed we can't help doing, about everything else we value.

I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment; it is its appointed consummation. It is not out of compliment that lovers keep on telling one another how beautiful they are; the delight is incomplete till it is expressed.

There is the solution! We praise what we enjoy because the delight is incomplete until it is expressed in praise. If we were not allowed to speak of what we value, and celebrate what we love, and praise what we admire, our joy would not be full. So if God loves us enough to make our joy full, he must not only give us himself; he must also win from us the praise of our hearts-not because he needs to shore up some weakness in himself or compensate for some deficiency, but because he loves us and seeks the fullness of our joy that can be found only in knowing and praising him, the most magnificent of all Beings. If he is truly for us he must be for himself!

God is the one Being in all the universe for whom seeking his own praise is the ultimately loving act. For him, self-exaltation is the highest virtue. When he does all things ``for the praise of his glory," he preserves for us and offers to us the only thing in all the world which can satisfy our longings. God is for us! And the foundation of this love is that God has been, is now, and always will be, for himself.

God_Is_Truth

March 20th, 2004, 11:23 PM

Z Man,

ok. i think i understand Pipers point in that God giving of himself to us is the most loving thing he can do because he is the ultimate thing. and thus, our praising him is the most glorious thing as possible.

this is the passage that makes the clearest sense to me.

Consider this question: In view of God's infinite power and wisdom and beauty, what would his love to a human being involve? Or to put it another way: What could God give us to enjoy that would prove him most loving? There is only one possible answer: himself! If he withholds himself from our contemplation and companionship, no matter what else he gives us, he is not loving.

so i think i'd agree with you that the most loving thing for God to give us would be himself.

There is the solution! We praise what we enjoy because the delight is incomplete until it is expressed in praise.

i'm a little confused about this statement though. is Piper talking about our delight or God's? if God's then doesn't that show that God is lacking something and thus in need? if us, then i don't have a problem. the statement though was unclear which it was.

God is the one Being in all the universe for whom seeking his own praise is the ultimately loving act.

ok, so now back to what we were previously discussing. this statement tells us that for God, the ultimate loving act is to seek his own praise because he is love right?

ok, but how does unconditionally predestining someone to hell bring God praise except perhaps in making us very grateful that we are not one of them?

also note that the article is about the praise of God being that which is the result of God's love. not just the glory. in other words, God giving himself is the act of love. so how is God giving himself to those people whom he unconditionally predestined to hell?

God Bless.

In Christ

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 21st, 2004, 01:35 AM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

i'm a little confused about this statement though. is Piper talking about our delight or God's? if God's then doesn't that show that God is lacking something and thus in need? if us, then i don't have a problem. the statement though was unclear which it was.
Piper was talking about our delight and how it only becomes complete in God when we praise Him.
ok, so now back to what we were previously discussing. this statement tells us that for God, the ultimate loving act is to seek his own praise because he is love right?
Correct.
ok, but how does unconditionally predestining someone to hell bring God praise except perhaps in making us very grateful that we are not one of them?
The same way He sought for His glory in Egypt by hardening Pharaoh's heart and destroying not only him, but his land and his people; not to mention killing his first-born son. The same reason He destroyed nations of people, wiped out whole cities, and caused famine and death in many places during many times. All things are done to glorify Himself.

Because of man's depravity and their sins, God is most just for sending men to hell. We both agree that men deserve hell. Thus, there should not be any problem with the notion that God damns men to hell. It's the just thing to do. In doing that act alone, He is showing the universe that sin and evil will not be tolerated; that His glory shall stand, and His holiness and righteousness is TRUTH and will reign supreme forever more! So again, it should not be stated or portrayed that God is being unfair in leaving men in their sins and sending them to hell, but rather, we should consider the unfairness of our salvation! Who are we to render God's love and affection and grace when we have done nothing to earn it or deserve it? Is not God being unfair in saving us? I think that sometimes. His grace blows me away, and I will forever be grateful for it!
also note that the article is about the praise of God being that which is the result of God's love. not just the glory. in other words, God giving himself is the act of love. so how is God giving himself to those people whom he unconditionally predestined to hell?
He's not. But is He obligated to?

The difference between what I believe and what you believe is simply this: Those that believe in freewill believe that God created us to have an intimate relationship with Him, so that in turn we would worship Him and glorify Him. I, on the other hand, along with many other TULIP believers, believe that God created us solely for His good pleasure and purposes. We were created soley for God's self-exaltation. And because His ulitmate purpose is to glorify Himself, we then can be happy and joyful in that fact. I believe that men benefit from His self-exaltation and His displayed glory, where as you believe God benefits and is glorified from His relationship with us.

I believe that a lot of people do not like the doctrine of "predestination" (and I'm speaking from experience here) because of a simple thing called pride. I once believed that my purpose on earth was because God desired a relationship with me. And when someone came along and told me that God predestines according to His absolute sovereignty, I was shocked. I thought, "How dare He? God would never do such a thing. I am a man. I am of high value to God. He can never do such a thing as "predestination" to me, or create some for destruction." In my mind, I had thought that God saw men as some sort of "supernatural being" or on some sort of pedestal or something. And for someone to say that God predestines and destroys and creates according to His purposes and pleasures baffled me. I thought it was absurd to consider that I was not the reason that God existed, sort of speak. In short, people do not like "predestination" and "absolute sovereignty" because it shatters their idea that man holds some sort of high value or special spot in the eyes of God; as if His world revolves around us. People do not like to see that image of themselves "lowered", or brought down to pretty much nothing in the sight of God. It's their pride...

Once I learned this, my mind snapped, my heart dropped, and my humulity and humbleness was greatly magnified. My thoughts on who I thought I was to God were shattered, and I was brought to a spirit of lowliness. O Lord, who am I that you are mindful of me? I am nothing in your sight! Yet, you still chose to save me!

smaller

March 21st, 2004, 09:52 AM

Now we get closer to the dark heart of "calvinism."

Because of man's depravity and their sins, God is most just for sending men to hell. We both agree that men deserve hell.

The above statement is fallacy #1 in the TULIP anti-spirit parade.

GOD LOVES HIS CREATION

Genesis 1:31
And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Psalm 8
4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world

Thus, there should not be any problem with the notion that God damns men to hell.

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

and of course the words that calvinists HATE

1 Timothy 4
10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

TWO DISTINCT CLASSES above....

1 Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

and of course Jesus' Own Representation of Himself:

John 4:42
And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.

1 John 4:14
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

According to calvinists God is nearly a COMPLETE FAILURE...

It's the just thing to do. In doing that act alone, He is showing the universe that sin and evil will not be tolerated;

He Himself created ALL THINGS including EVIL. Using your logic God should only be DAMNING HIMSELF...since ALL THINGS came from HIM.

Calvinism represents a very strange god. Evil comes from Him. He condemns IT, and in doing so CONDEMNS HIMSELF...

God is NOT able to OVERCOME evil with GOOD, nor PROVE that LOVE is greater....

that His glory shall stand, and His holiness and righteousness is TRUTH and will reign supreme forever more! So again, it should not be stated or portrayed that God is being unfair in leaving men in their sins and sending them to hell, but rather, we should consider the unfairness of our salvation!

pathetic grovel...

Who are we to render God's love and affection and grace when we have done nothing to earn it or deserve it? Is not God being unfair in saving us? I think that sometimes. His grace blows me away, and I will forever be grateful for it!

You are right in that GRACE is an UNMERITED position. One that is ATTRIBUTED FREELY by GOD to ALL of mankind.

I believe that a lot of people do not like the doctrine of "predestination" (and I'm speaking from experience here) because of a simple thing called pride.

The objection to predestination to eternal torture is multifold. It represents only J. Calvin's LIMITED VIEW of God.

Once I learned this, my mind snapped, my heart dropped, and my humulity and humbleness was greatly magnified. My thoughts on who I thought I was to God were shattered, and I was brought to a spirit of lowliness. O Lord, who am I that you are mindful of me? I am nothing in your sight! Yet, you still chose to save me!

Yeah, pat pat on the back, all the while holding others sins against them and damning them to be tortured for eternity...

Typical Pharisee nonsense...

smaller

Z Man

March 21st, 2004, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by smaller

Calvinism represents a very strange god. Evil comes from Him. He condemns IT, and in doing so CONDEMNS HIMSELF...

God is NOT able to OVERCOME evil with GOOD, nor PROVE that LOVE is greater....
Your logic baffles me sometimes.

The difference between "calvinists" and "armenians/OV'ers" is simply a matter of God's purpose for us. Freewill thinkers would say that God created us to love us - all of us. I, on the other hand, believe that God created us out of love for Himself. He didn't create us to love us as if He was lonely or deficient. He created us for Himself, so that in His self-exaltation, we may find joy and love. He does not benefit from our glory or glorification, but rather, we benefit from His glory and self-exaltation.

The problem with you is that you hold true the same doctrine of predestination as that of a calvinist, yet you still beleive as the armenians do in that somehow God is obligated to love men since you believe He created them for that specific reason.

Your feet are in both rivers....

God_Is_Truth

March 21st, 2004, 03:59 PM

Piper was talking about our delight and how it only becomes complete in God when we praise Him.

ok, good. that's a relief.

The same way He sought for His glory in Egypt by hardening Pharaoh's heart and destroying not only him, but his land and his people; not to mention killing his first-born son. The same reason He destroyed nations of people, wiped out whole cities, and caused famine and death in many places during many times. All things are done to glorify Himself.

but he did all these things to them AFTER they had sinned remember? we are talking about unconditional predestination in which a judgement is sentenced upon someon BEFORE they sin.

Because of man's depravity and their sins, God is most just for sending men to hell. We both agree that men deserve hell. Thus, there should not be any problem with the notion that God damns men to hell. It's the just thing to do. In doing that act alone, He is showing the universe that sin and evil will not be tolerated; that His glory shall stand, and His holiness and righteousness is TRUTH and will reign supreme forever more! So again, it should not be stated or portrayed that God is being unfair in leaving men in their sins and sending them to hell, but rather, we should consider the unfairness of our salvation! Who are we to render God's love and affection and grace when we have done nothing to earn it or deserve it? Is not God being unfair in saving us? I think that sometimes. His grace blows me away, and I will forever be grateful for it!

i never said God was not just. but justice is only applied AFTER one sins. to find someone guilty of something that they have not done is unjust wouldn't you say? thus, if someone is condemned to hell for something they did not do, it would be unjust? don't you agree?

for God to send someone to hell for sins they did not commit would be unjust. so if you want to say that he unconditionally predestines people to hell then it can't be because of sins they committed, that would make God injust.

He's not. But is He obligated to?

i thought that was your point of how it was loving to do it! you were making the point that it's love because it brings him glory and that which brings him the most glory is when people praise him. that being the case, wouldn't it make sense to just predestine us all to heaven so we would praise him? is God inefficient? is he going to do things that bring him less glory instead of those which bring him MORE glory?

The difference between what I believe and what you believe is simply this: Those that believe in freewill believe that God created us to have an intimate relationship with Him, so that in turn we would worship Him and glorify Him. I, on the other hand, along with many other TULIP believers, believe that God created us solely for His good pleasure and purposes. We were created soley for God's self-exaltation. And because His ulitmate purpose is to glorify Himself, we then can be happy and joyful in that fact. I believe that men benefit from His self-exaltation and His displayed glory, where as you believe God benefits and is glorified from His relationship with us.

there is nothing written there which i don't believe. to God be ALL the glory.

I believe that a lot of people do not like the doctrine of "predestination" (and I'm speaking from experience here) because of a simple thing called pride. I once believed that my purpose on earth was because God desired a relationship with me. And when someone came along and told me that God predestines according to His absolute sovereignty, I was shocked. I thought, "How dare He? God would never do such a thing. I am a man. I am of high value to God. He can never do such a thing as "predestination" to me, or create some for destruction." In my mind, I had thought that God saw men as some sort of "supernatural being" or on some sort of pedestal or something. And for someone to say that God predestines and destroys and creates according to His purposes and pleasures baffled me. I thought it was absurd to consider that I was not the reason that God existed, sort of speak. In short, people do not like "predestination" and "absolute sovereignty" because it shatters their idea that man holds some sort of high value or special spot in the eyes of God; as if His world revolves around us. People do not like to see that image of themselves "lowered", or brought down to pretty much nothing in the sight of God. It's their pride...

Once I learned this, my mind snapped, my heart dropped, and my humulity and humbleness was greatly magnified. My thoughts on who I thought I was to God were shattered, and I was brought to a spirit of lowliness. O Lord, who am I that you are mindful of me? I am nothing in your sight! Yet, you still chose to save me!

yes, it sure does make you feel special that God "chose" you doesn't it :rolleyes:

i guess i just don't see it as the right thing to do to only elect so few people when we are all the same. God is all good and doesn't want any to perish. if it was just up to God then it seems kinda contradictory. but if you have total depravity then it makes sense. if i were you Z Man, i'd try to establish total depravity to others. once you have that, the rest all follow.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 21st, 2004, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

but he did all these things to them AFTER they had sinned remember? we are talking about unconditional predestination in which a judgement is sentenced upon someon BEFORE they sin.
All men sin; it's inevitable. To state that there is a time before and after a person sins, as if they are innocent before, and then guilty after, is irrelevant.

God has a purpose for every single human on this planet, whether they are saved or not. He didn't harden Pharaoh's heart in punishment for sinning; He hardened Pharaoh's heart because God wanted to display His glory. His purpose in anything is to display His glory/self-exaltation. He's not a referee in the sky who rewards people for not sinning, and punishes those who do. He has a plan for each and every one of our lives and creates us to carry out those plans, whether it involves hardening our hearts, or enlightening us to His TRUTH and grace.
i never said God was not just. but justice is only applied AFTER one sins. to find someone guilty of something that they have not done is unjust wouldn't you say? thus, if someone is condemned to hell for something they did not do, it would be unjust? don't you agree?

for God to send someone to hell for sins they did not commit would be unjust. so if you want to say that he unconditionally predestines people to hell then it can't be because of sins they committed, that would make God injust.
People go to hell because God did not save them from their sins. I don't know why you call it unconditional predestination, because there is no such thing. I believe that God unconditionally elects souls to salvation, in that He saves people not according to what they've done. It cannot be applied the same way towards those who are left in their sins. They weren't unconditionally elected to damnation; they were just elected to be left in their sins, which damns them.

God is just in any decision.
i thought that was your point of how it was loving to do it! you were making the point that it's love because it brings him glory and that which brings him the most glory is when people praise him.
I never implied, nor was it my intent to say that God was showing love towards those who are damned by sending them to hell. That's ludicris! He's showing them wrath and justice. To the universe and all that is, He is displaying His glory. He is self-exalting Himself by erradicating evil and sin. His glory is displayed in the destruction of the wicked.

In knowing that mankind is evil and wicked, yet that God has chosen to save us in our sins by sending His Son as a sacrifice for us, is also a display of His glory on those whom He has shown mercy. Realizing that God hates sin and pours out His wrath on those whom are wicked shows those who are called to grace just how merciful our God is to us.

What I'm trying to say is how would we really know how much our salvation is worth if there was no such thing as damnation? How would we know what was good and glorious in God if there was no evil and wicked for God to judge? How do you know what love is unless you've seen hate?
that being the case, wouldn't it make sense to just predestine us all to heaven so we would praise him? is God inefficient? is he going to do things that bring him less glory instead of those which bring him MORE glory?
Hardening Pharaoh's heart brought God more glory to Egypt than just allowing Pharaoh to set the Israelites free. If God did not predestinate and man had freewill, then Judas could've perhaps never betrayed Christ. Then what "greater" glory of God would have come out of that? God had created Judas for one purpose - to betray Christ which lead to Judas's destruction. God's glory was displayed greater in the destruction of Judas than it would have been otherwise.
yes, it sure does make you feel special that God "chose" you doesn't it :rolleyes:
More like humbled. The doctrine of election brings upon an individual great sorrow and heart-ache. Realizing that I'm just as sinful as anyone else and have done absolutely nothing to earn my salvation shatters my heart and mind. It always brings me to my knees. Many times, like Paul said in Romans 9:3, I say to myself that I would willingly have myself cutoff from Christ in the hopes of having some other soul come to know Him and take my place in His election. This type of attitude and humulity is what sparks evangelism and witnessing. Gotta tell one more about Jesus...
I guess i just don't see it as the right thing to do to only elect so few people when we are all the same.
Well, it's not just "so few people" that God has elected. There are millions and millions and millions of believers that have lived, past, present, and future. But yeah, I understand what you're saying. To me, it seems so unfair for God to save. I should be going to hell. I owe my life to God forever. His grace is sooooooo amazing.
God is all good and doesn't want any to perish. if it was just up to God then it seems kinda contradictory. but if you have total depravity then it makes sense. if i were you Z Man, i'd try to establish total depravity to others. once you have that, the rest all follow.
Let me get this straight; you're saying finally that I'm making sense if it follows that total depravity is true? If that's the case, what is it in your mind that will not allow you to believe in total depravity to it's fullest? What is it that I have not gone over well enough for you to understand?

Ok, let's get our cards in order here and see where we all stand for now. So far, what have I stated that you now have a better understanding about and what is it that you believe/don't believe? Is any of this debate makiing any more sense to you?

I think, and I'm just speaking from what I know was the most bothersome thing for me, I think that the problem that sits in the back of your mind and will not allow you to "cross over" into the "darkside" ( :D ) with me is the notion that if God is absolutely sovereign and predestines whom He wills to salvation, then He is "mean" and not loving.

But I ask, why is it that you may believe man holds such a special spot in the eyes of God? We are mere dust. God is not obligated to love anyone. He didn't create us just to "love us"; we were created not for our purpose and pleasure, but for His. To believe that God created mankind solely for an intimate relationship is false. He's not lonely or ineffecient in that He needs our company or love. He didn't need someone to love. He simply created us to glorify Himself. And He is allowed to do whatever He pleases to man. He is not obligated to love us simply because He created us! Since when did man define the character of God's love? If God creates someone for destruction, it does not mean that God is no longer a God of love! He's still love, regardless what He does to His creation. Man does not hold God accountable to His character of love. We are not the definition of God's character of love by His actions towards us and through His purposes of creating us.

I really hope God is blessing you tremendously through all of this. I'm not trying to brainwash you, or tell you you're wrong and I'm right; I simply hope you understand and come to see the glorification and exaltation of God's tremendous glory and sovereignty as I have. And also that the grace of God becomes of unsurpassable measure to you and that your spirit is humbled beyond what words could ever express in realizing the mercy of God that save you despite your sinful depravity.

God bless.

God_Is_Truth

March 22nd, 2004, 03:53 PM

All men sin; it's inevitable. To state that there is a time before and after a person sins, as if they are innocent before, and then guilty after, is irrelevant.

all men will sin. it does not mean all men are born condemned. it means that no one can live a life without sin. at some point they will sin. but do you really believe that little 1 month babies are sinners?

God has a purpose for every single human on this planet, whether they are saved or not. He didn't harden Pharaoh's heart in punishment for sinning; He hardened Pharaoh's heart because God wanted to display His glory. His purpose in anything is to display His glory/self-exaltation. He's not a referee in the sky who rewards people for not sinning, and punishes those who do. He has a plan for each and every one of our lives and creates us to carry out those plans, whether it involves hardening our hearts, or enlightening us to His TRUTH and grace.

where does the bible say that God has a purpose for every single human on this planet? God hardened pharoahs heart as a form of judgement upon him for refusing to let his people go out of Egypt. God's glory was displayed in this judgement and he was exalted by it, but it was still judgement. i never said that God was some sort of referree up in the sky who rewards us for not sinning and punishes us for sinning. but please show me where the bible teaches that God has a individual plan for each of our lives.

People go to hell because God did not save them from their sins.

but earlier you stated that the reason man goes to hell has absolutely nothing to do with a persons sins. they go there because God predestined them there.

I don't know why you call it unconditional predestination, because there is no such thing

All men are not created for the same end; but some are fore-ordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation. So according as every man was created for the one end or the other, we say, he was elected, that is, predestined to life, or reprobated, that is, predestined to damnation (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 21, section 1).
(bolding mine).

calvin himself made the claim and since your doctrine is unconditional election then the contrast of it must also be unconditional, otherwise it doesn't make sense.

I believe that God unconditionally elects souls to salvation, in that He saves people not according to what they've done. It cannot be applied the same way towards those who are left in their sins. They weren't unconditionally elected to damnation; they were just elected to be left in their sins, which damns them.

Many indeed (thinking to excuse God) own election, and yet deny reprobation; but this is quite silly and childish. For without reprobation, election itself cannot stand; whom God passes by, those he reprobates. It is one and the same thing (Calv. Inst., book 3, chapter 23, section 1).

if the election is unconditional and predestined then so is the reprobation. one without the other cannot stand.

God is just in any decision.

:thumb:

I never implied, nor was it my intent to say that God was showing love towards those who are damned by sending them to hell. That's ludicris! He's showing them wrath and justice. To the universe and all that is, He is displaying His glory. He is self-exalting Himself by erradicating evil and sin. His glory is displayed in the destruction of the wicked.

then what was your whole spiel about love?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD , I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'

this verse alone should destroy the doctrine of God purposefully and unconditionally condemning people to hell for no other reason than his pleasure. it states here that God takes NO pleasure in the death of the wicked.

remember what you stated in post 54?

God destines people wherever He wishes. Not according to man's actions or will does He consider His deceisions and purposes; rather, according to His pleasure and purposes do all things happen and are all things created

you yourself admitted that God destines people "according to his pleasure". well, he takes NO pleasure in the death of the wicked. so, he CANNOT by your own statement predestine people to hell because he only does that which is according to his pleasure and God has told us that he takes NO pleasure in the death of the wicked.

What I'm trying to say is how would we really know how much our salvation is worth if there was no such thing as damnation? How would we know what was good and glorious in God if there was no evil and wicked for God to judge? How do you know what love is unless you've seen hate?

i'm not arguing against damnation. i'm arguing against unjust condemnation to hell of men before they ever did anything wrong. wouldn't you agree that it's wrong to punish a child for something they haven't done? wouldn't it be better to say "if you do this, then i'll punish you" instead of "you're going to be punished whether you do it or not"?

Hardening Pharaoh's heart brought God more glory to Egypt than just allowing Pharaoh to set the Israelites free. If God did not predestinate and man had freewill, then Judas could've perhaps never betrayed Christ. Then what "greater" glory of God would have come out of that? God had created Judas for one purpose - to betray Christ which lead to Judas's destruction. God's glory was displayed greater in the destruction of Judas than it would have been otherwise.

hardening pharaohs heart was an act of justice so of course it brought him glory. but it was not just some abitrary thing JUST so God could get glory. God did it as a judgement itself which always brings God glory.

who says it had to be judas? and who's to say God didn't do the same thing he did to pharoah to judas: namely a act of judgement for not having believed and repented?

More like humbled. The doctrine of election brings upon an individual great sorrow and heart-ache. Realizing that I'm just as sinful as anyone else and have done absolutely nothing to earn my salvation shatters my heart and mind. It always brings me to my knees. Many times, like Paul said in Romans 9:3, I say to myself that I would willingly have myself cutoff from Christ in the hopes of having some other soul come to know Him and take my place in His election. This type of attitude and humulity is what sparks evangelism and witnessing. Gotta tell one more about Jesus...

while i'm glad that it brings you a sense of humility and such i'm afraid that i find personally just a sense of disgust, confusion, and reason to boast.

Well, it's not just "so few people" that God has elected. There are millions and millions and millions of believers that have lived, past, present, and future. But yeah, I understand what you're saying. To me, it seems so unfair for God to save. I should be going to hell. I owe my life to God forever. His grace is sooooooo amazing.

but God only needed to do it 1 person to make us understand how lucky we would be to be saved. not billions!

Let me get this straight; you're saying finally that I'm making sense if it follows that total depravity is true? If that's the case, what is it in your mind that will not allow you to believe in total depravity to it's fullest? What is it that I have not gone over well enough for you to understand?

i'm saying that calvinism is a system such that once you accept total depravity then unconditional election becomes a necessity and then limited atonement follows and irresistible grace also becomes necessary and then perseverence of the saints also makes sense. however, if one denies the first one then the rest don't follow at all.

Ok, let's get our cards in order here and see where we all stand for now. So far, what have I stated that you now have a better understanding about and what is it that you believe/don't believe? Is any of this debate makiing any more sense to you?

you helped me to better understand why God focusing on himself is a good thing.

I think, and I'm just speaking from what I know was the most bothersome thing for me, I think that the problem that sits in the back of your mind and will not allow you to "cross over" into the "darkside" ( ) with me is the notion that if God is absolutely sovereign and predestines whom He wills to salvation, then He is "mean" and not loving.

that seems to be part of it at least. the idea of God unconditionally predestining billions of people to hell for his own pleasure seems contradictory to his good, perfect, and loving character in every conceivable way.

lol......darkside :chuckle:

But I ask, why is it that you may believe man holds such a special spot in the eyes of God? We are mere dust. God is not obligated to love anyone. He didn't create us just to "love us"; we were created not for our purpose and pleasure, but for His. To believe that God created mankind solely for an intimate relationship is false. He's not lonely or ineffecient in that He needs our company or love. He didn't need someone to love. He simply created us to glorify Himself. And He is allowed to do whatever He pleases to man. He is not obligated to love us simply because He created us! Since when did man define the character of God's love? If God creates someone for destruction, it does not mean that God is no longer a God of love! He's still love, regardless what He does to His creation. Man does not hold God accountable to His character of love. We are not the definition of God's character of love by His actions towards us and through His purposes of creating us.

cause every one of us is made in God's own personal image. we are not "just" dust. we are each made in his image. to what else in creation did God make in his image? nothing. that ALONE puts us above everything else in creation. i agree that God didn't create us for his sake, but instead i believe that it was for love sake. the nature of love is to give and so God gave. it's like God is this big circle of love (trinity) and he wanted others to be able to join it so he created man in his own image so that they could join in and feel the love, so to speak. we find our purpose and full joy and ultimate love in God, who is love.

I really hope God is blessing you tremendously through all of this. I'm not trying to brainwash you, or tell you you're wrong and I'm right; I simply hope you understand and come to see the glorification and exaltation of God's tremendous glory and sovereignty as I have. And also that the grace of God becomes of unsurpassable measure to you and that your spirit is humbled beyond what words could ever express in realizing the mercy of God that save you despite your sinful depravity.

nah, i don't feel like you are trying to brainwash me at all. i think your doctrine is incorrect that's all and you see mine as incorrect.

i hope that you are getting at least a better understanding of why i reject calvinism and problems i see in it.

God bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

Z Man

March 22nd, 2004, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

nah, i don't feel like you are trying to brainwash me at all. i think your doctrine is incorrect that's all and you see mine as incorrect.

i hope that you are getting at least a better understanding of why i reject calvinism and problems i see in it.
The differences in what we believe lie in what we believe about God's purpose for creating us. You don't like predestination because it makes God seem "mean". You believe that man was created to be loved by God.

I, on the other hand, believe God created man not for the sole purpose of loving them, but that He could glorify and love Himself. He created us to display His glory to us, so in turn we may come to know He is Holy and Love.

In your view, it's easy to believe in freewill. God loves every single human being, and created them because He desires a relationship with them. Thus, there is no way He would ever harm one of His beloved children whom He dearly loves.

In my view, however, I do not believe God is worried about our comfort and "love". He doesn't need anything from us, or "desire" a relationship from us, as if He was lonely. Men were created by God for God; that's it. Thus, if God has purposed that creating one man for destruction allows His glory to be displayed in one area, and that to create another man for mercy displays His glory in another area, that's what He will do. If betrayal is what it took to have Jesus crucified, then God is going to create a man for destruction to carry out that purpose. If God sees fit to display His glory through another man's stubborness and hard-heartedness, He will create that man for exactly that purpose.

Daniel 4:35
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Z Man

March 22nd, 2004, 06:09 PM

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

where does the bible say that God has a purpose for every single human on this planet? ... please show me where the bible teaches that God has a individual plan for each of our lives.
Are you serious? Do you believe that there are "accidents" walking around, and God is saying, "Well where did that guy come from? I have no purpose for him."? Do you really believe that there are people running around on earth without a purpose of existence?

You've got to be kidding me! I thought this was a common belief among all christians; that every thing serves a purpose on this earth. Well, to answer your question, here is scriptural evidence:

Colossians 1:16-17
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for His purpose.

Revelation 4:11
You [God] created everything, and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created!

Rolf Ernst

March 22nd, 2004, 06:22 PM

Good answer, Z Man. It is awash in scriptures which make your point, BUT--"a man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven." So don't be discouraged when the scriptural points are not understood.

God_Is_Truth

March 22nd, 2004, 07:32 PM

The differences in what we believe lie in what we believe about God's purpose for creating us. You don't like predestination because it makes God seem "mean". You believe that man was created to be loved by God.

i don't like predestination that condemns men of things before they do them. i don't mind predestination in general.

I, on the other hand, believe God created man not for the sole purpose of loving them, but that He could glorify and love Himself. He created us to display His glory to us, so in turn we may come to know He is Holy and Love.

i don't believe that God created us just for the purpose of him loving us. i totally agree that God did it to bring himself glory because everything brings him glory because he is the source of everything.

In your view, it's easy to believe in freewill. God loves every single human being, and created them because He desires a relationship with them. Thus, there is no way He would ever harm one of His beloved children whom He dearly loves.

i believe that free will exists because that's what reality tells me.

In my view, however, I do not believe God is worried about our comfort and "love". He doesn't need anything from us, or "desire" a relationship from us, as if He was lonely. Men were created by God for God; that's it. Thus, if God has purposed that creating one man for destruction allows His glory to be displayed in one area, and that to create another man for mercy displays His glory in another area, that's what He will do. If betrayal is what it took to have Jesus crucified, then God is going to create a man for destruction to carry out that purpose. If God sees fit to display His glory through another man's stubborness and hard-heartedness, He will create that man for exactly that purpose.

God never gets lonely. i gave you an analogy of why God created us and it had nothing to do with God being lonely. the circle of love that God exists in is perfect, not needing anything.

i guess i also hold a higher view of the love God has for man than you do because i believe that he died for them all, created them all in his image, wants to see them all saved, and does not predestine any of them to hell and certainly not unconditionally.

Are you serious? Do you believe that there are "accidents" walking around, and God is saying, "Well where did that guy come from? I have no purpose for him."? Do you really believe that there are people running around on earth without a purpose of existence?

You've got to be kidding me! I thought this was a common belief among all christians; that every thing serves a purpose on this earth. Well, to answer your question, here is scriptural evidence:

Colossians 1:16-17
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made everything for His purpose.

Revelation 4:11
You [God] created everything, and it is for your pleasure that they exist and were created!

i believe that each man has a general purpose, to bring praise and glory to God through our good works and to share the gospel with whoever is willing to listen. i have yet to come accross a verse in the bible that say we are each created with a specific purpose in this life and none of the ones you provided right there are support of it either.

God Bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth