Do Calvinists believe dangerously?

[Swordsman]

I like how A.W. Pink defends the doctrine of God's Sovereignty:

"Here then is the refutation of the wicked charge that this doctrine is a horrible calumny upon God and dangerous to expound to His people. Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" that gives God His true place, that maintains His rights, that magnifies His grace, that ascribes all glory to Him and removes every ground of boasting from the creature? Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" which affords the saints a sense of security in danger, that supplies them comfort in sorrow, that begets patience within them in adversity, that evokes from them praise at all times? Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" which assures us of the certain triumph of good over evil, and which provides a sure resting-place for our hearts, and that place, the perfections of the Sovereign Himself? No; a thousand times, no! Instead of being "horrible and dangerous" this doctrine of the Sovereignty of God is glorious and edifying, and a due apprehension of it will but serve to make us exclaim with Moses, "Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like Thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?" (Exo. 15:11)."

To know what grace means - unmerited favor in God's eyes - is understanding through all my impurities God accepts me and wants me. And NOTHING can pluck me out of His hand. What a glorious thought! God is almighty! He is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Amen!

[Clete]

Originally posted by Swordsman

I like how A.W. Pink defends the doctrine of God's Sovereignty:

"Here then is the refutation of the wicked charge that this doctrine is a horrible calumny upon God and dangerous to expound to His people. Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" that gives God His true place, that maintains His rights, that magnifies His grace, that ascribes all glory to Him and removes every ground of boasting from the creature? Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" which affords the saints a sense of security in danger, that supplies them comfort in sorrow, that begets patience within them in adversity, that evokes from them praise at all times? Can a doctrine be "horrible" and "dangerous" which assures us of the certain triumph of good over evil, and which provides a sure resting-place for our hearts, and that place, the perfections of the Sovereign Himself? No; a thousand times, no! Instead of being "horrible and dangerous" this doctrine of the Sovereignty of God is glorious and edifying, and a due apprehension of it will but serve to make us exclaim with Moses, "Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like Thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?" (Exo. 15:11)."

Great defense! Too bad it's not a Biblical one!

This argument basically amount to "Well, gee wiz! Calvinism must be true because it makes me feel so warm and fussy inside about who God is and all."

The truth is that your warm fussies come at the cost of making God the author of evil and a stone idol unable to think or move or change in any way whatsoever.

If you would like to defend such a belief Biblically I invite you to make the atempt.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[smaller]

Calvinism might THINK it gives God a Sovereign position, but that position is largely derived by a man who is woefully short of same call J. Calvin.

As such we are merely seeing the thoughts of A MAN applied to THE WORD.

This is a typical way that most people come to a deeper understanding of God's Word. They hear ARGUING about it and DIG IN.

The fact is even within Calvinism and Arminianism there are so many forms and alternatives it is beyond the grasp of anyone.

Each man bows down to his own "god." The "god" that each man has carved out in his own HEAD.

It is no different than what the children of Israel did in the desert when Aaron formed the golden calf.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Great defense! Too bad it's not a Biblical one!

This argument basically amount to "Well, gee wiz! Calvinism must be true because it makes me feel so warm and fussy inside about who God is and all."

The truth is that your warm fussies come at the cost of making God the author of evil and a stone idol unable to think or move or change in any way whatsoever.

If you would like to defend such a belief Biblically I invite you to make the atempt.

Resting in Him,
Clete

tHIS IS AN ANSWER to a question not even spoken.

and what WAS said is BIBLICAL .

The UNPALATABLE truth to many that God IS soveriegn is because they are in such a REBELIOS state that the very thought that HE IS LORD of ALL is irksome hatefull and dangerous!
And BECAUSE He IS LORD OF ALL then there is NOTHING that is NOT UNDER HIS authority.
na das such then men can ONLY be saved IF HE wills it!
and they are WILLING to submit to His RIGHTFULL and LAWFULL AUTHORITY!
THAT is REPENTANCE!

AND IT IS BECAUSE He IS soverien then we ARE in truth saved BY HIS GRACE!
and NOT of our works!
and BECAUSE He IS sovereign OVERALL and GOD ALMIGHTY that HIS salvation IS BOTH sure and CERTAIN to be FULLFILLED.

Now to any who have still a hidden desire to save themselevs in SOMEWAY by thier own good works then they of course will submit to those doctrins of devils that give them a 'wayout' of thier predicament of needing to submit to the WILL of God.
To be saved.
if then there is just a 'little' soemthing they can do then they can 'save face' and glory a little in themselves.

But who is man?
is he not like the grass? that springs up and when the sun comes up withers away?
Is he not of the dust?
Who then can measure himself against God or save Him from His hand?
No.
God do God and it was HE who created man and not we ourselves.

God is THE ROCK or the UNCHANGING ONE as He has so declared of Himself.
"I change not"

it is MAN who has changed.
and it is MAN who needs to RETURN to His fathers house.
Not the FATHER to go to where his son finds himself.

The SUN does not revolve around the earth.
But the earth around the sun.
Man still would like it to be the other way around.
and have God dance at his tune and be at HIS beck and call.
But in truth it is for US to move when HE moves AND TO STOP when HE STOPS for that is the LAW of CHRIST.
Even as it was under the law of MOSES.

"For I do nothing of Myself,That which I see the father DO; THAT DO I"

and God's progressive purposes have NEVER CHANGED COURSE or NOT PROGRESSED one IOTA.

The REAL question is are we walking "according to His purpose"s or not?

If we are not then it is WE who will be 'left behind'

[oliverdread]

I don't know any calvinists who say or think "Well, gee wiz! Calvinism must be true because it makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside about who God is and all." Calvinists look to scripture, not feelings. Feelings can be tricky- afterall, they come from out of the heart....

If you would like to defend such a belief Biblically I invite you to make the atempt.

Where do we begin? You will soon realize calvinist beliefs aren't based on any preconcieved notion of 'freedom'.

in HIS grip,
O.D.

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by oliverdread

I don't know any calvinists who say or think "Well, gee wiz! Calvinism must be true because it makes me feel so warm and fuzzy inside about who God is and all." Calvinists look to scripture, not feelings. Feelings can be tricky- afterall, they come from out of the heart....

Where do we begin? You will soon realize calvinist beliefs aren't based on any preconcieved notion of 'freedom'.

in HIS grip,
O.D.

O.D. my friend. You'll notice on these boards those that are from the open theist and Arminians schools of thought lash out at Calvinists who "blatently take the Scriptures out of context." We've been called "sons of Satan", "haters of Christ", among others.....

Doctrines aside, as Christians, we should have the Love of Christ flowing through our thoughts and words.

And honestly, I've been doing some soul-searching about one of the 5 points of Calvinism - Limited Atonement. I'm praying for wisdom on that one. 2 Peter 3:9 came up on another thread, and I've been mulling over it for about a week now.

So, I'm still not sold yet on it. I may be more of a 4-point Calvinist.

[oliverdread]

Swordsman,

2Peter 3:9 does not disprove Limited atonement.

2 Peter 3:7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
2 Peter 3:8 But do not let this one [fact] escape your notice, BELOVED, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward YOU, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up.

Notice the personal use of 'YOU' and 'BELOVED'...

God is holding back his wrath for the sake of the elect. Let me ask a question, if Jesus had come back before a time when you had made a profession in Christ, would you be saved? No. God is patient and waiting for the full number of elect. God is patient with us, holding back his wrath so than none of those who are elected to salvation aren't lost in unbelief. I ask sometimes, "Could Paul have died before Jesus met him on the road to Damascus?" If so, it seems God's great plan would have been thwarted. No, God's mercy for Paul endured and he kept him till his work was done.

But, John Owens was right when he said 2Peter 3 pertains to the wrath of God against Jerusalem which took place in AD70. God was holding back his wrath so that all the elect jews and gentiles within the land could be saved.

You can see the extreme urgency in the commission of the disciples:
Matthew 10:23 "But whenever they persecute you in one city, flee to the next; for truly I say to you, you will not finish [going through] the cities of Israel until the Son of Man comes.

The Gospel was to be spread, God's wrath was already stored up!

With that said- Limited atonement is a domino in the Doctrines of Grace. The critics are right when they say if you remove one point, then they all fall. Like wise, if you remove Limited Atonement then you have said that Jesus died for all- but for what purpose? Total depravity and unconditional election don't really make sense inlight of the fact that Jesus died for all, knowing not all would be saved.

But, I also understand there is a balanced perspective that allows a person to affirm the limited/unlimited aspect of the atonement. I understand that certain benefits flow from the cross-act of Christ, one being common grace. So, I guess some would say the cross-act was more than just a sin bearing/atoning, vicarious sacrifice- in so much as certain things are granted to the non-elect.

God saves HIS PEOPLE: Isaiah 53:8; Matthew 1:21; Luke 1:68,77
Jesus died for MANY: Isaiah 53:11-12; Matthew 20:28,26:28; Mark 14:24; Hebrews 9:28
Jesus died for his SHEEP: John 10:11,14-16)
Jesus died for the elect: Romans 8:32-33
The list goes on...

in HIS grip,

O.D.

[Swordsman]

Those are all the points that I already know O.D. Thank you. I'm just saying that I'm not yet 100% sure in my mind about it. I'm not questioning my faith at all. Because all that really matters is that Christ has saved me by His grace.

My point is - I really never will have it all figured out. But that's the beauty of studying His Word. God is Sovereign. He has opened my eye in the past to things such as the Doctrine of Grace. I'm praying He shows me the way with the Limited Atonement point.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Swordsman

I've been doing some soul-searching about one of the 5 points of Calvinism - Limited Atonement. I'm praying for wisdom on that one. 2 Peter 3:9 came up on another thread, and I've been mulling over it for about a week now.

So, I'm still not sold yet on it. I may be more of a 4-point Calvinist.
If Christ died for everyone, then no one would go to hell. Jesus said in John that He came to die for His sheep only. And then He turns around and tells a few Jews that they are not His sheep. That means Christ did not die for them. If there is no "limited atonement", or if Christ did not die for just the elect, but for everyone, then His sacrifice is a failure since some people still go to hell.

[God_Is_Truth]

If Christ died for everyone, then no one would go to hell.

does not follow just from that sentence. you need to explain more deeply WHY you believe that statement and the reasoning behind it.


Jesus said in John that He came to die for His sheep only. And then He turns around and tells a few Jews that they are not His sheep. That means Christ did not die for them.

please quote the scripture for the sake of those who have not seen them yet.


If there is no "limited atonement", or if Christ did not die for just the elect, but for everyone, then His sacrifice is a failure since some people still go to hell.

OR, he in fact did die for everyone but it only applies or is credited to those who have faith in him. faith has always been the requirement for salvation going all the way back to abraham. and no, faith is not a work.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

If Christ died for everyone, then no one would go to hell.
does not follow just from that sentence. you need to explain more deeply WHY you believe that statement and the reasoning behind it.
Hey GIT.

My post was for Swordsman, and I just assumed he already knew all these things. I'm sorry for not thinking about the other's who may have read my post and yet know nothing of the sorts. Ok, here's my attempt to answer your question.

If Christ died for everyone, then no one would go to hell.

That's assuming that you believe Christ's sacrifice is what actually saves people. If not, then of course His sacrifice did not accomplish salvation, but only made it possible. Then of course everyone in the whole world can be saved, if they somehow manage to fulfill the requirements from God in order to obtain salvation of themselves, since Christ's work on the cross does not grant this. I like what John Piper says about this issue:

Originally from John Piper

The term "limited atonement" addresses the question, "For whom did Christ die?" But behind the question of the extent of the atonement lies the equally important question about the nature of the atonement. What did Christ actually achieve on the cross for those for whom he died?

If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. In the first case you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God.

For if Christ died for all men in the same way then he did not purchase regenerating grace for those who are saved. They must regenerate themselves and bring themselves to faith. Then and only then do they become partakers of the benefits of the cross.

In other words if you believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren't. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to save ourselves from the bondage of sin, the hardness of heart, the blindness of corruption, and the wrath of God.

Therefore it becomes evident that it is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement. It is the Arminian, because he denies that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need -- namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. The Arminian limits the nature and value and effectiveness of the atonement so that he can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.
Jesus said in John that He came to die for His sheep only. And then He turns around and tells a few Jews that they are not His sheep. That means Christ did not die for them.
please quote the scripture for the sake of those who have not seen them yet.
Yeah.. sorry 'bout that. Here ya go:

John 10:14-16, 24-28
"I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
If there is no "limited atonement", or if Christ did not die for just the elect, but for everyone, then His sacrifice is a failure since some people still go to hell.
OR, he in fact did die for everyone but it only applies or is credited to those who have faith in him. faith has always been the requirement for salvation going all the way back to abraham. and no, faith is not a work.
In other words, Christ only made all men savable. We have to somehow save ourselves from our own sins, since Christ's death didn't accomplish that. Read the quote above from John Piper for more explanation.

I know this isn't what you truely mean, but that is the truth whenever someone says that Christ did in fact die for every human being in the world, yet believe that some people still go to hell. They're practically saying Christ's sacrifice was not meant to save, whether they mean to or not.

[God_Is_Truth]

Hey GIT.

My post was for Swordsman, and I just assumed he already knew all these things. I'm sorry for not thinking about the other's who may have read my post and yet know nothing of the sorts. Ok, here's my attempt to answer your question.


i know it was for Swordsman and i didn't mean to intrude, it was just that your post came off as rather quick and seemed like it needed some more explanation. i knew what you were talking about, but that's cause we've dialogued before with each other. it was just trying to see that Swordsman didn't jump to any conclusions about what you meant.


That's assuming that you believe Christ's sacrifice is what actually saves people. If not, then of course His sacrifice did not accomplish salvation, but only made it possible. Then of course everyone in the whole world can be saved, if they somehow manage to fulfill the requirements from God in order to obtain salvation of themselves, since Christ's work on the cross does not grant this. I like what John Piper says about this issue:


the requirement for salvation has always been faith in God. everyone is capable of putting their faith in God because they are not totally depraved. thus, Christ died for all so that those who put their faith in him would be saved.


Originally from John Piper

The term "limited atonement" addresses the question, "For whom did Christ die?" But behind the question of the extent of the atonement lies the equally important question about the nature of the atonement. What did Christ actually achieve on the cross for those for whom he died?

If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. In the first case you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God.

For if Christ died for all men in the same way then he did not purchase regenerating grace for those who are saved. They must regenerate themselves and bring themselves to faith. Then and only then do they become partakers of the benefits of the cross.

In other words if you believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren't. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to save ourselves from the bondage of sin, the hardness of heart, the blindness of corruption, and the wrath of God.

Therefore it becomes evident that it is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement. It is the Arminian, because he denies that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need -- namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. The Arminian limits the nature and value and effectiveness of the atonement so that he can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.

what Piper says follows if one affirms Total Depravity and Irresistible grace. since i deny both, i can allow Christ to die for all so that all have the opportunity to be saved by putting their faith in Jesus.


Yeah.. sorry 'bout that. Here ya go:

John 10:14-16, 24-28
"I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

Then the Jews surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."

Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.


no problem. i'm sure you already know how i interpret the verses you used so we won't get back into that.


In other words, Christ only made all men savable. We have to somehow save ourselves from our own sins, since Christ's death didn't accomplish that. Read the quote above from John Piper for more explanation.

I know this isn't what you truely mean, but that is the truth whenever someone says that Christ did in fact die for every human being in the world, yet believe that some people still go to hell. They're practically saying Christ's sacrifice was not meant to save, whether they mean to or not.

Christ provided a means of salvation for all who put faith in him. i'm sure you have heard of the bridge analogy sometimes used in witnessing.

there are two cliffs. on one side is man and on one side is God and in the middle is a huge divide that no one can get accross no matter what he or she does. no work of their own will get them to God.

however, Jesus came and died for all men and thus becomes a bridge between us and God. all men are now able to cross over to God not of their own works, but God's. however, God won't make them cross over the bridge. it's up to each person to put their faith in Jesus and thus, find God.

we each are fully capable of crossing the bridge (faith) of Jesus and going to God. before Jesus, it was impossible. because we are each capable, we can truly be found guilty for not choosing God. if God only died for some, then we shouldn't be found guilty for not doing something we couldn't do. that would be injustice.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

the requirement for salvation has always been faith in God. everyone is capable of putting their faith in God because they are not totally depraved. thus, Christ died for all so that those who put their faith in him would be saved.
You just stated an obvious contridiction. You just said:

the requirement for salvation has always been faith in God.

But then you turn around and say that:

Christ died for all so that those who put their faith in him would be saved.

Ok, so which one is it? Does Christ's death save us, or our faith?what Piper says follows if one affirms Total Depravity and Irresistible grace. since i deny both, i can allow Christ to die for all so that all have the opportunity to be saved by putting their faith in Jesus.
Then you agree with what he said then? You...

...believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith...
no problem. i'm sure you already know how i interpret the verses you used so we won't get back into that.
What's there to interpret? Jesus said He came to die exclusively for His sheep, and then He told some Jews that they did not believe because they were not His sheep. Therefore, Christ did not die for them. That's exactly what the text says. There's no other way around it.
Christ provided a means of salvation for all who put faith in him.
So if no one believed in Christ, He died in vain. You limit Christ's sacrifice to only providing a means of salvation, not providing salvation itself. If that's the case, how does one become saved? If Christ's death didn't accomplish it, what does?
Jesus came and died for all men and thus becomes a bridge between us and God. all men are now able to cross over to God not of their own works, but God's.
Agree.
however, God won't make them cross over the bridge. it's up to each person to put their faith in Jesus and thus, find God.
What?! You just contridicted yourself. You're not making any sense here. Ok, earlier you just said that we are saved by God's work through Jesus Christ. Then you turn around and say that it's up to each person to "put their faith in Christ and find God".

Is salvation of us, or God? Make up your mind.
we each are fully capable of crossing the bridge (faith) of Jesus and going to God.
Then no man in their right mind would ever go to hell. Saying that all are capable of crossing the bridge means that you are boasting in the fact that you crossed, yet other's have not.

In the military, all are capable of recieving awards and ribbons. But only those who actually did a "good work" recieved such a reward. Therefore, those who had a bigger rack earned it. And those who did not have that many medals and ribbons were obvious "slackers". It was obvious that those with more awards and ribbons earned more respect because they were "better" in what they did than those who lacked the same medals and awards, since all are equally capable of recieving the same.

Get the picture? If all are capable of salvation, yet only some attain it means that it has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with us. It allows for boasting. Christ's sacrifice does not save us, but rather our efforts to believe in Him do.

:nono:

[God_Is_Truth]

You just stated an obvious contridiction. You just said:

the requirement for salvation has always been faith in God.

But then you turn around and say that:

Christ died for all so that those who put their faith in him would be saved.

Ok, so which one is it? Does Christ's death save us, or our faith?

Christ died SO that our faith in him would save us.


Then you agree with what he said then? You...

...believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith...


new birth is not a requirement. everyone already has faith but they need to hear the gospel in order to put it in Christ. so, no. i don't agree with the statement.


What's there to interpret? Jesus said He came to die exclusively for His sheep, and then He told some Jews that they did not believe because they were not His sheep. Therefore, Christ did not die for them. That's exactly what the text says. There's no other way around it.


the sheep are those who have put their faith in Jesus. obviously those who don't believe what Jesus tells them don't believe because they don't have faith in him. however, it does not mean that they can't at some point put their faith in him, thus becoming sheep and then they would easily believe everything else Jesus said.


So if no one believed in Christ, He died in vain. You limit Christ's sacrifice to only providing a means of salvation, not providing salvation itself. If that's the case, how does one become saved? If Christ's death didn't accomplish it, what does?


the requirement has always been and will always be FAITH. however, without Jesus, our faith is useless and we are still in our sins just as 1 Corinthians 15 says:

1 Cor 15
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.


Agree.


but probably not of the same understanding :D


What?! You just contridicted yourself. You're not making any sense here. Ok, earlier you just said that we are saved by God's work through Jesus Christ. Then you turn around and say that it's up to each person to "put their faith in Christ and find God".

Is salvation of us, or God? Make up your mind.


Jesus is the WAY to salvation. our part is FAITH in Jesus. God is always the one who saves us. however, it's up to each one of us, as to whether we choose to enter into that salvation. offered to all, accepted by only a few.


Then no man in their right mind would ever go to hell. Saying that all are capable of crossing the bridge means that you are boasting in the fact that you crossed, yet other's have not.


no, some men would STILL choose hell. open your eyes. some people would still reject God even if he descended out of the clouds with might power.

my deciding to cross the bridge is certainly nothing i can boast about! it's saying that i myself cannot do anything to get to God apart from faith in Christ! it is complete abandonement of any of my own works. it's saying "i cannot get to God on anything of my own so i will throw myself at Jesus' feet and trust in him to save me".


In the military, all are capable of recieving awards and ribbons. But only those who actually did a "good work" recieved such a reward. Therefore, those who had a bigger rack earned it. And those who did not have that many medals and ribbons were obvious "slackers". It was obvious that those with more awards and ribbons earned more respect because they were "better" in what they did than those who lacked the same medals and awards, since all are equally capable of recieving the same.


salvation is not given to any on the basis of one's own good works but through Faith in Jesus and trusting COMPLETELY in him alone. there is no "I" or "me" or self-accomplishment. it's about what Christ has done and the hope one has through him for salvation.

Get the picture? If all are capable of salvation, yet only some attain it means that it has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with us. It allows for boasting. Christ's sacrifice does not save us, but rather our efforts to believe in Him do.


Jesus paid the price for ALL. he is our bridge for anyone and everyone who chooses to cross it. the problem is that choosing that path means you can't trust in any of your own efforts. most people don't like that. there's your hang up and why many people say no to the free gift: pride.

God Bless you Z Man.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Christ died SO that our faith in him would save us.
Moses never heard of the gospel message of Christ. Niether did David, or Noah, or Abraham. So how does thier faith save them if they did not believe in the Jesus we know of? Did Christ die for them? Or did they not need Christ's sacrifice, since their faith was "accounted as righteousness"?
new birth is not a requirement.
Oh yeah? That's not what Jesus taught:

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
everyone already has faith...
Where did you read that? I've never heard of such a thing. And if that was the case, everyone would be saved. You said it yourself; the requirement for salvation is faith.
everyone already has faith but they need to hear the gospel in order to put it in Christ.
Again, Moses and David and all those in the Old Testament never heard about Jesus. Were they saved?
the sheep are those who have put their faith in Jesus. obviously those who don't believe what Jesus tells them don't believe because they don't have faith in him. however, it does not mean that they can't at some point put their faith in him, thus becoming sheep and then they would easily believe everything else Jesus said.
Wrong. Jesus didn't say "You're not my sheep because you do not believe", but rather, "You don't beleive BECAUSE you are not my sheep."
the requirement has always been and will always be FAITH.
Where does faith come from?
Jesus is the WAY to salvation. our part is FAITH in Jesus.
Again, which one saves us? Our faith, which is our part, or Jesus's sacrifice, which is God's part?
God is always the one who saves us. however, it's up to each one of us, as to whether we choose to enter into that salvation.
:rolleyes: .....

Contridiction. You claim that God saves us, then turn around and state that it's of ourselves; salvation is up to us. Make up your mind.
[salvation is] offered to all, accepted by only a few.
Why? Why do only some accept it?
my deciding to cross the bridge is certainly nothing i can boast about! it's saying that i myself cannot do anything to get to God apart from faith in Christ! it is complete abandonement of any of my own works. it's saying "i cannot get to God on anything of my own so i will throw myself at Jesus' feet and trust in him to save me".
Where do you think that humility came from? Are you and other's who choose to believe some sort of special race that are capable of believing in Christ? Do you guys magically create faith out of thin air, or was it heriditary in that maybe one of your parents had faith?

Who grants you the ability to make the first step across that bridge? Who opened your eyes to the TRUTH?
salvation is not given to any on the basis of one's own good works but through Faith in Jesus and trusting COMPLETELY in him alone. there is no "I" or "me" or self-accomplishment. it's about what Christ has done and the hope one has through him for salvation.
Amen. As long as saving, believing faith comes from God and not man, this statement is free of contridictions and 100% accurate.
Jesus paid the price for ALL.
Then His sacrifice was a failure, since some still burn in hell for their sins.
he is our bridge for anyone and everyone who chooses to cross it.
Only those who He allows to cross will ever do so.
the problem is that choosing that path means you can't trust in any of your own efforts. most people don't like that. there's your hang up and why many people say no to the free gift: pride.
Does not every man posses pride? Are we not all filthy sinners, just alike in the eyes of God? Then why put yourself on such a high pedestal and claim that you have no pride, and that you are able to please God through your obediance, although many men cannot do such a thing. Not to mention the Bible even declares that no man is good or accpetable before our God; that the carnal mind of men are enmity against God and cannot please Him. The bible tells us that the only way a person can ever claim Jesus Christ as their savior is if they have the Holy Spirit.

Since all men are equally sinful, how is it that you are able to come to Christ? Who removed your "blinders"? Who took away your pride?

:think:

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Swordsman

O.D. my friend. You'll notice on these boards those that are from the open theist and Arminians schools of thought lash out at Calvinists who "blatently take the Scriptures out of context." We've been called "sons of Satan", "haters of Christ", among others.....

Doctrines aside, as Christians, we should have the Love of Christ flowing through our thoughts and words.

And honestly, I've been doing some soul-searching about one of the 5 points of Calvinism - Limited Atonement. I'm praying for wisdom on that one. 2 Peter 3:9 came up on another thread, and I've been mulling over it for about a week now.

So, I'm still not sold yet on it. I may be more of a 4-point Calvinist.

Can I make a sugestion?

WHERE did Calvin make ANY sugestion in a SUSTAINED 'argument' EXCLUDING all other scripture?
I would 'argue' that he did NO such thing as to say that God's atonement is limited.
and that what he DID say is that not ALL would be saved!
But carnal men notwishing either to START at the scriptures nor willing to be LED by him in his 'argument' through them.
To either justyfy themselves in thier own rightousness by sayin thier the 'elect'(they claim) or to justyfy themselves by rejecting the truth by an manufactured lie derived from it.

Therefore the 'limited atonement' 'argument is a RED HERRING and a snare of the devil to take us FROM the scriptures and arguing over CALVIN! and not even so much then but as to what MEN have presumed to understand of his words.
and to 'argue' over the extremes of a doctrin that are neither adequately represented or taught.
But which those "SOUND doctrins" which pertain to "THE faith that was once and for all delivered unto the saints"
can be found in the SCRIPTURES even as we are LED by Him "who will LEAD us into all truth" and by thier knowledge are made free and by thier keeping are KEPT free.

So my sugestion is either to read CALVIN himself from START to the finish of his 'argument' and NOT jump to ANY conclusion BUT FOLOW his 'argument ' from it foundation to its conclusion.

and if then the FOUNDATION was in and upon the scriptures and his 'argument' was as he was so led himself by THE Spirit of truth.
Then if you areven so led as well and by him through his 'argument'
you will arrive at the same conclusion as he was.

If you cannot nor are unwilling to.
Then draw NO CONCLUSION from such 'arguments' that so ABUSE HIS!~and misrepresent him.
But rather "search the scriptures".
NOT to discover mens doctrins by which they have by carnal reasoning.
But le the scriptures speak for themselves as the HOLY SPIRIT would have us know.
For if men have so misrepresented him and by thier carnal minds have come to such error how much more then will they of scripture.
For it cannot be said that Calvin had NO argument that could not be folowed.
But i have never YET found any that refute him bring a adequate 'answer' in as thorough a way as he did.
Not that in itself that it is proof either of his error or thier beign right.
But to surfice to say that when they only quote but PART of his 'argument' and argue from a sentence here and another there.
which though on the FACE of it would confirm what they say.
Yet are we as children of God to so LIGHTLY cast OFF such a man who is without doubt on eof the pillars of the reformation which brought us the liberty in which we still now stand.
Not that this too is proof of him being right.
But whadoes the scriptures say about bringing a charge agains an elder?
Not that any can lay a charge againts him now but in the minds of some who are weak it can move them from the truth.
So for the truths sake and the gospel and before God let NO man LIGHTLY and with such LITTLE EVIDENCE so present him as to cast doubt on the truth.
For in truth that is of the devil rather than God even as it was in the begining!

Leave off then the foolish 'arguments' of the varios 'schools' of theology.
But rather seek HIM of which the scriptures speak.
For in truth if we would know HIM in any measure beyond our being BORNagain we would know for a truth how foolish some are.but who profess themselves wise.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Z Man

If Christ died for everyone, then no one would go to hell. Jesus said in John that He came to die for His sheep only. And then He turns around and tells a few Jews that they are not His sheep. That means Christ did not die for them. If there is no "limited atonement", or if Christ did not die for just the elect, but for everyone, then His sacrifice is a failure since some people still go to hell.

This is a FALSE 'argument' based not on the scriptures but by a 'theological 'reasoning' on an interlectual level.

For God so loved the WORLD. that is ALL.
That out of them ALL whosoever would believe would not perish but haveverlasting life.
God is NOT willing that ANY(that is ALL) should perish but that ALL should come to a knowledge of the truth"
You say then that if then that is Gods will then ALL should come to a knowledge of truth?
Not so all.
For by mens obedience to the truth men are saved.
By mens refusal the are not.
THAT too IS GODS will.
"For it has pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to sav them tha beleive"
Just because you may not understand God in a matter does NOT mean we can ignore and dismiss scripture that does not fit OUR understanding.
The scriptures are there so thawe may become SUBJECT to them and be "conformed"to them and renewed in the SPIRIT of our minds.
Not for us to subject the scriptures to OUR reasoning.
The scriptures where the you PARTLY quote the Lord in John rightly shows the Lord came to the ONLY the los sheep of the household of ISREAL.
But we are to go INTO ALL THE WORLD!


Why do you say His death was a failure!!
You are so QUICK to judge God??!!
Surely we should go more slowly in our thinking?
Gods purpose in calvalry was to deal with SIN and REMOVE it. and to reconcile the world unto Himself.
Thus His the SWORD which DIVIDES those who LOV E THE light or DARKNESS.
For the CROSS is the ONLY place where men who by NATURE are SINNERS can come to God who by NATURE is HOLY.
God CANNOT nor HAS not nor DOES not nor EVER will COMPRIMISE WITH sin.
and the CROSS MANIFESTS that.
There is MORE to the WORK that was "FINISHED" THERE THAN MEETS THE EYE.
one thing of it is that NOW men do not go to hell so much because they have sinned but because they have not repented "and believed not on Him who He sent"
Therefore the cross and HIS DEATH was in ALLways the greatest victory imaginable.
So GREAT in fact tha even DEATH will be swallowed up in it in the fullness of times.

We were once ALL 'children of the devil'
More than children of God!
and were ALL bound lost and without hope.
Perhaps there arsome who are not saved simply because the CHURCH is not TELLING IT right!
nor going out into all the world and PREACHING the gospel!
But is rather staying indoors hoping to "make a name for itself"

The GOSPEL is FOR ALL.
He DIED for ALL.
and GOD is CAPABALE of saving all.
and IF all came HE would!!!!!!!

But when HE calls WHO will ANSWER?

" If ANY man HUNGER and THIRST after rightousness,HE SHALL be filled."
The questuion then is are YOU hungry?

[God_Is_Truth]

Moses never heard of the gospel message of Christ. Niether did David, or Noah, or Abraham. So how does thier faith save them if they did not believe in the Jesus we know of? Did Christ die for them? Or did they not need Christ's sacrifice, since their faith was "accounted as righteousness"?


http://www.carm.org/questions/otsaints.htm


Oh yeah? That's not what Jesus taught:

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."


new birth is a requirement for seeing the kingdom of God. it is NOT a requirement for placing one's faith in Christ. new birth comes after one does that.


Where did you read that? I've never heard of such a thing. And if that was the case, everyone would be saved. You said it yourself; the requirement for salvation is faith.


everyone has faith in something. some have faith that God does not exist, some have faith in a false God like Allah, and some have faith that it can't be known. everyone has faith in something. the only one who might not have faith would be someone with a severe intelligence handicap.

the requirement is Faith in the TRUE GOD. faith in a false god won't save you one bit because that god can't save you from your sins against the true God.


Again, Moses and David and all those in the Old Testament never heard about Jesus. Were they saved?


http://www.carm.org/questions/otsaints.htm


Wrong. Jesus didn't say "You're not my sheep because you do not believe", but rather, "You don't beleive BECAUSE you are not my sheep."


one won't believe what Jesus is saying until they put their faith in him. so yes, they don't believe because they're not his sheep (haven't put their faith in him).


Where does faith come from?


Romans 10:17
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.


Again, which one saves us? Our faith, which is our part, or Jesus's sacrifice, which is God's part?


God is the only one who saves us. he decides who to save though based on who has put their faith in him. so, God is our savior. we do not save ourselves. however, it's up to us to put our faith in Christ so that we will be saved by God.


Contridiction. You claim that God saves us, then turn around and state that it's of ourselves; salvation is up to us. Make up your mind.


God saves us through Jesus Christ on the basis of our faith in him.


Why? Why do only some accept it?


pride.


Where do you think that humility came from? Are you and other's who choose to believe some sort of special race that are capable of believing in Christ? Do you guys magically create faith out of thin air, or was it heriditary in that maybe one of your parents had faith?

Who grants you the ability to make the first step across that bridge? Who opened your eyes to the TRUTH?


all have faith. the gospel opens the eyes of the person to the truth. at that point they have the option to either accept it or reject it. many people reject it. they do so out of pride or perhaps some other reason. i can't tell you why because there doesn't necessarily have to be a reason. they have free will and in the end they make a decision from that for whatever reason (assuming there is one) they choose.


Amen. As long as saving, believing faith comes from God and not man, this statement is free of contridictions and 100% accurate.

Romans 10
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Then His sacrifice was a failure, since some still burn in hell for their sins.


only according to your theology.


Only those who He allows to cross will ever do so.


all are allowed to because he died for them all. many simply choose not to.


Does not every man posses pride? Are we not all filthy sinners, just alike in the eyes of God? Then why put yourself on such a high pedestal and claim that you have no pride, and that you are able to please God through your obediance, although many men cannot do such a thing. Not to mention the Bible even declares that no man is good or accpetable before our God; that the carnal mind of men are enmity against God and cannot please Him. The bible tells us that the only way a person can ever claim Jesus Christ as their savior is if they have the Holy Spirit.


i NEVER said i have NO pride. i admit that i still do. but the gospel has taken it down enough for me to see the truth that i'm a sinner. at that point i decided that i wanted and needed to be forgiven. so i got down on my knees and accepted the free gift of forgiveness and salvation that comes through Jesus Christ.

i put myself on no pedestal. faith itself is self-emptying. it denies anything of yourself and puts ALL hope in God and Jesus on the cross. to boast in faith is a contradiction. you'd be boasting that you trust in yourself for nothing and have put all hope in God. faith is self-denying.

by faith, i make myself out to be nothing and consider all others greater than myself. i want them to also hear the gospel and to put their faith in Christ. all are capable after hearing the gospel, but many decide not to for reasons of their own free will.


Since all men are equally sinful, how is it that you are able to come to Christ? Who removed your "blinders"? Who took away your pride?


all men are NOT equally sinful. they are all sinners and thus have sin in their lives but they are NOT equally sinful. some men sin much more than others. the gospel reveals the truth and leads me to faith. but faith is something each person decides for themselves to put in Christ. the gospel condemns, shows the way to forgiveness but in the end, each person is held responsible for putting their faith in Christ. they are ALL CAPABLE of doing this because God has enabled all to do so. many though refuse it for reasons that they choose.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

http://www.carm.org/questions/otsaints.htm
If faith is all we need, what was the purpose for Christ?
Romans 10:17
17Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Yes. We all know that verse. But it still doesn't answer the question, "Where does faith come from". By your answer, are we suppose to assume that faith is produced in a person by the words spoken of by a preacher who is reading out of the Bible? Exactly what does this verse mean?

We know that God has chosen the means of preaching to spread the gospel message, because it destroys the mighty wisdom of men (1Co 1:21). So, in other words, God has chosen the means of preaching to distrubute faith. But since not everyone believes when they hear the gospel message, exactly how does one recieve believing faith? People can't just expect to hear the gospel and "bam", be saved. It doesn't work that way. Where does faith come from?

The Bible gives us a better understanding of this in

1 Corithians 2:8-16
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.

Faith does not come from man. It comes from God.

Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Man cannot even discern the things of the Spirit; it's foolishness to him. In 1Co 1:21, Paul tells us that the cross is also foolishness to man. Whenever a person hears the gospel message, they do not automatically recieve faith. They will detest and hate God, and continue in disbelief until God saves them. Until He grants them mercy and repentance through saving faith. All of it is God's doing. Man has nothing to do with their salvation. Glory be to God that it is that way!
God is the only one who saves us. he decides who to save though based on who has put their faith in him. so, God is our savior. we do not save ourselves. however, it's up to us to put our faith in Christ so that we will be saved by God.
Contridiction.

"we do not save ourselves. however, it's up to us to put our faith in Christ so that we will be saved..."

Do you not see the confusing statement you just made? Who is our savior? Ourselves, or God?

According to you, it's ourselves, because it's an atrocity to believe that God would save anyone! Oh no, there's no way He'll force everlasting life, granted by His love, on anyone! Far be it from Him! Noooo.. it's not that way at all. But rather, God just sits back and waits for us to save ourselves and somehow conjur up our own saving faith in Him so that we can recieve eternal life. Only after we take the first step will God finally step in our lives and take over, according to you.

And according to the bible, you're wrong.
God saves us through Jesus Christ on the basis of our faith in him.
In other words, salvation is based upon ourselves. Gotcha. Don't agree, but I understand.
all have faith. the gospel opens the eyes of the person to the truth. at that point they have the option to either accept it or reject it.
If someone knows the truth, they can't dis-believe in it anymore. If I know red is red, I can't say red is green and actually believe that, because I know red is red. If anyman knows the TRUTH, they can't and won't reject it. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and they follow Me."
many people reject it. they do so out of pride or perhaps some other reason. i can't tell you why because there doesn't necessarily have to be a reason. they have free will and in the end they make a decision from that for whatever reason (assuming there is one) they choose.
I'll tell you why they reject it. Because it's foolishness to them. Because God has not granted them salvation. Because God has not opened their hearts and their eyes to the TRUTH of His Son Jesus Christ. That's why.

It has nothing to do with freewill. Man really does not have freewill anyways until they're saved. After a person is saved, then and only then do they have the choice to sin. Before salvation, that's all men know and do.
Jesus paid the price for ALL.
Then His sacrifice was a failure, since some still burn in hell for their sins.
only according to your theology.
Only according to Truth! You mean to tell me you believe that Christ's payment on the cross for sins to all does not really mean all? I don't understand? If Christ died for everyone's sins, then why on earth would anyone have to go to hell to pay for them still? That could only mean 2 things:

1) that Christ did not actually die for everyone's sins,
2) or that His death was not 100% efficient; it was a failure.

You must agree with one of these statements. Or do you have a 3rd option?
all men are NOT equally sinful.
Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

2 Chronicles 19:7
Now therefore, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes.

You seriously think that there are "better" men out there, or more "sinful" ones? HA! You've got to be kidding me?

God could care less if you're Hitler or Mother Teresa. All have sinned and are worthy of death just the same. I know it's hard for people to be on the same level as Hitler, but that's just the way it is, like it or not. We are all slimeballs, full of sin and evil, and never worthy of God's love, no matter what we've done or haven't done in life. ALL ARE EQUALLY SINFUL! It's biblical. To say otherwise is to indicate that certain men find favor in the sight of God based on their actions.
they are all sinners and thus have sin in their lives but they are NOT equally sinful. some men sin much more than others.
No such thing as "some men sin more than others". You think that matters? If you told one simple lie in your whole life, you'd still go to hell. God could care less if you've killed a million people or stole one candy bar; ALL ARE EQUALLY DISGUSTINGLY EVIL AND SINFUL AND DESERVING OF DEATH!

[God_Is_Truth]

If faith is all we need, what was the purpose for Christ?


Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.


Yes. We all know that verse. But it still doesn't answer the question, "Where does faith come from". By your answer, are we suppose to assume that faith is produced in a person by the words spoken of by a preacher who is reading out of the Bible? Exactly what does this verse mean?


everyone already has faith, like i said. however, one can only put it in Jesus once they hear about Jesus. so, faith is able to be put in God by hearing the message of Christ. one can't have saving faith in something they don't know about-that would be absurd.

We know that God has chosen the means of preaching to spread the gospel message, because it destroys the mighty wisdom of men (1Co 1:21). So, in other words, God has chosen the means of preaching to distrubute faith. But since not everyone believes when they hear the gospel message, exactly how does one recieve believing faith? People can't just expect to hear the gospel and "bam", be saved. It doesn't work that way. Where does faith come from?


quite right, it does indeed destroy the wisdom of men because in order to be saved they must have faith in Jesus alone. this is self-emptying and thus deprives them of any of their own wisdom to get them anywhere.

when people hear the gospel, they have two options. they can either accept it and thus put their faith in Christ and repent of their sins; or they can reject and keep their faith in whatever else it was already in and not repent of their sins.


The Bible gives us a better understanding of this in

1 Corithians 2:8-16
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor have entered into the heart of man the things which God has prepared for those who love Him." But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For "who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


that passage speaks not of salvation, but of maturing things. it speaks of what wisdom is gained AFTER one is in Christ. THAT is why the unspiritual cannot understand it. It DOES NOT MEAN that the GOSPEL is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.


Faith does not come from man. It comes from God.


you haven't given me any scripture to support this yet.


Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God


it is NOT the faith that is the gift. but, it is the SALVATION that is the gift. one cannot earn salvation on the merit of their own works. instead, it comes by grace, through faith, to whoever accepts it.


Man cannot even discern the things of the Spirit; it's foolishness to him. In 1Co 1:21, Paul tells us that the cross is also foolishness to man. Whenever a person hears the gospel message, they do not automatically recieve faith. They will detest and hate God, and continue in disbelief until God saves them. Until He grants them mercy and repentance through saving faith. All of it is God's doing. Man has nothing to do with their salvation. Glory be to God that it is that way!


there you go again with that total depravity stuff :rolleyes:

man cannot discern the mature spiritual things. the gospel is NOT included in this. instead, the gospel is preached to everyone and AFTER they accept it, then they begin to discern the spiritual.

furthermore, if God is completely and utterly the only one who determines every factor of salvation, down to the smallest detail, and if he has decided to only save a few when he is fully capable of saving all people, then by definition, he is NOT GOOD. this is a stumbling point for you calvinists though. i'll repeat myself and maybe you'll see it this time:

IF GOD IS FULLY CAPABLE OF SAVING EVERYONE BUT PURPOSELY AND DELIBERATELY DECIDES NOT TO FOR HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE, THEN HE IS NOT GOOD.

thus, calvinism serves a God who is not good. :chuckle:


Contridiction.

"we do not save ourselves. however, it's up to us to put our faith in Christ so that we will be saved..."

Do you not see the confusing statement you just made? Who is our savior? Ourselves, or God?


i think you are missing what i mean when i say save. when someone is saved, they are forgiven of all their sins, they are justified, declared righteous, made clean and have found favor in the eyes of God. ALL OF THIS IS GOD'S WORK.

now the part that we play is in placing our faith in God SO that he will save us. we each have a part to play BUT IT IS GOD WHO SAVES.


According to you, it's ourselves, because it's an atrocity to believe that God would save anyone! Oh no, there's no way He'll force everlasting life, granted by His love, on anyone! Far be it from Him! Noooo.. it's not that way at all. But rather, God just sits back and waits for us to save ourselves and somehow conjur up our own saving faith in Him so that we can recieve eternal life. Only after we take the first step will God finally step in our lives and take over, according to you.


God saves people. we don't save ourselves. we come to God through faith and then HE SAVES US.


And according to the bible, you're wrong.


lol not the last time i read it :D


In other words, salvation is based upon ourselves. Gotcha. Don't agree, but I understand.


how did you get "salvation is based upon ourselves" from "God saves us "? :confused:


If someone knows the truth, they can't dis-believe in it anymore. If I know red is red, I can't say red is green and actually believe that, because I know red is red. If anyman knows the TRUTH, they can't and won't reject it. Jesus said, "My sheep hear my voice, and they follow Me."


but you CAN suppress it. just because you know there is a God, doesn't mean you must follow him. just because you know you've sinned doesn't mean you must repent. just because you've offended God doesn't mean you must ask for forgiveness.

Romans 1:18
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness


I'll tell you why they reject it. Because it's foolishness to them. Because God has not granted them salvation. Because God has not opened their hearts and their eyes to the TRUTH of His Son Jesus Christ. That's why.

It has nothing to do with freewill. Man really does not have freewill anyways until they're saved. After a person is saved, then and only then do they have the choice to sin. Before salvation, that's all men know and do.


it has EVERYTHING to do with free will. to deny we have free will is just ignorance.


Only according to Truth! You mean to tell me you believe that Christ's payment on the cross for sins to all does not really mean all? I don't understand? If Christ died for everyone's sins, then why on earth would anyone have to go to hell to pay for them still? That could only mean 2 things:

1) that Christ did not actually die for everyone's sins,
2) or that His death was not 100% efficient; it was a failure.

You must agree with one of these statements. Or do you have a 3rd option?


here is why Christ died on the cross:

Romans 3
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

God saves anyone who comes to him through faith. he is able to do this BECAUSE he demonstrated the justice they SHOULD have gotten ON JESUS. anyone who does not come to God through faith has not had their sins forgiven and justice will be done upon them instead of what was on Jesus.

it's kinda like this. imagine that we are in a courtroom where God is the judge and prosecutor. he has presented the case, we are guilty, and about to be sentenced. but wait! Jesus has come to our defense. he has agreed to have the sentence taken on him! all we have to do is sign the dotted line and we will be forgiven our sins, justice will be done and life will be good.

now in this illustration, faith is signing the dotted line. that's our part. Jesus is what saves us and the penalty for our sins would be the sentence from the judge-death. many people, no matter that they know the consequences, will still refuse to sign the dotted line. sad, but true.


Romans 3:23
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

James 2:10
For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

2 Chronicles 19:7
Now therefore, let the fear of the Lord be upon you; take care and do it, for there is no iniquity with the Lord our God, no partiality, nor taking of bribes.

You seriously think that there are "better" men out there, or more "sinful" ones? HA! You've got to be kidding me?


Romans says that we are all sinners. James says we're all guilty of breaking the law in it's entirety because to break one is to break them all. and 2 Chronicles says there is no partiality with God. however, nowhere does it say that all men have committed the same amount of sins. yes, James does say we have all broken the law in it's entirety but that does not mean we are all at the same amount of times we have broken it. it just means all of us have broken it all BECAUSE WE BROKE IT ONCE.

a person who rapes 100 women for pleasure is more sinful than someone who steals a candy bar. to deny this is just wrong. ask any jury (even one of all christians) which person is more sinful. 10 times out 10 it will be the person who rapes 100 women. why? because that's how it is.

i do not think there are "better" men out there because "better" implies you are already "good". there is no one good without Jesus. we BOTH agree on that ;) however, you can be more sinful than another person. in other words, to be more sinful just means you've committed more sins. it does not change the status between you and God. you are still seperated no matter how many times you sin. however, the more you sin the more sinful you become. that's just common sense.


God could care less if you're Hitler or Mother Teresa. All have sinned and are worthy of death just the same. I know it's hard for people to be on the same level as Hitler, but that's just the way it is, like it or not. We are all slimeballs, full of sin and evil, and never worthy of God's love, no matter what we've done or haven't done in life. ALL ARE EQUALLY SINFUL! It's biblical. To say otherwise is to indicate that certain men find favor in the sight of God based on their actions.


do you think all people will have the same punishment in hell? i think that some will have it worse than others, because that's what justice does. you don't give a 5 year old who stole a candy bar the same sentence that a man who rapes 100 women gets. that would be massive INJUSTICE. even the bible agrees with this:

Romans 2:6
God "will give to each person according to what he has done."

Revelation 22:12
"Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.


No such thing as "some men sin more than others". You think that matters? If you told one simple lie in your whole life, you'd still go to hell. God could care less if you've killed a million people or stole one candy bar; ALL ARE EQUALLY DISGUSTINGLY EVIL AND SINFUL AND DESERVING OF DEATH!


no, all are NOT equally evil and sinful. you just think they are because of Total Depravity which i reject.

God bless.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

that passage (1 Corithians 2:8-16) speaks not of salvation, but of maturing things. it speaks of what wisdom is gained AFTER one is in Christ. THAT is why the unspiritual cannot understand it. It DOES NOT MEAN that the GOSPEL is SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED.
1Co 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Man in the flesh cannot have faith, then be saved and become spiritual. It's quite the opposite. The Holy Spirit of God must regenerate a man before he is able to beleive and confess that Jesus is Lord.

Still don't believe scripture? Maybe this passage will change your mind:

John 12:36-41
These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE, because Isaiah said again: "GOD has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should UNDERSTAND with their hearts and TURN, So that I should heal them." These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

John 6:35-36, 44
And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

NO ONE can come to Me UNLESS the Father who sent Me draws him...


it is NOT the faith that is the gift. but, it is the SALVATION that is the gift. one cannot earn salvation on the merit of their own works. instead, it comes by grace, through faith, to whoever accepts it.
Salvation is by grace, through faith. All of that is from God, faith included.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Salvation by grace through faith is not of ourselves. Faith is not of ourselves. It's a gift from God. The faith that allows us to believe in His grace is from God. How much simpler could this verse get? If faith was from ourselves, we'd have something to boast in.
there you go again with that total depravity stuff :rolleyes:

man cannot discern the mature spiritual things. the gospel is NOT included in this. instead, the gospel is preached to everyone and AFTER they accept it, then they begin to discern the spiritual.
I already went over this earlier. Man cannot believe in Christ unless the Holy Spirit allows them to believe and is indwelling inside them. Jesus Himself said no one could go to Him unless the Father draws them unto Him; grants them access. That's why Paul told Timothy

2 Timothy 2:25-26
those who are in opposition, may God perhaps grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

This verse alone defeats the argument that unbelievers have freewill. How can they, if they are captive of the devil's will? How can man have freewill when Jesus stated that:

Joh 8:34
Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
IF GOD IS FULLY CAPABLE OF SAVING EVERYONE BUT PURPOSELY AND DELIBERATELY DECIDES NOT TO FOR HIS OWN GOOD PLEASURE, THEN HE IS NOT GOOD.
Why? Who are you to declare God unrighteous? You're just a man! Far be it from God that He save anyone, let alone millions of people! And you have the audacity to declare God not good because He does not save some people??? Who are you to declare such a thing? You are literally pointing a finger at God and declaring that if He does save as I believe, and it's all in His hands, that He is totally obligated to save everyone, lest He be a "bad God".

That's despicable. A sinful, evil being such as yourself telling God what is right and what is wrong.

:down::(
God saves people. we don't save ourselves. we come to God through faith and then HE SAVES US.
Thus salvation rest in our hands, not Gods. It's us who saves ourselves. God's waiting on us. He has nothing to do with it.

You don't get on a plane unless you go get a ticket. The only reason you get to fly anywhere is because you took the initiative to get the ticket. You're on the plane because YOU got a ticket yourself.

That's the way you believe about salvation. You're saved because YOU grabbed a ticket. You're going to heaven only because YOU took the first step. Has nothing to do with God.
it has EVERYTHING to do with free will. to deny we have free will is just ignorance.
You calling Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, and many, many other's ignorant?
anyone who does not come to God through faith has not had their sins forgiven and justice will be done upon them instead of what was on Jesus.
Thus, Jesus did not die for them, since they will be paying for their own justice. Exactly what I've been saying!
now in this illustration, faith is signing the dotted line. that's our part. Jesus is what saves us and the penalty for our sins would be the sentence from the judge-death. many people, no matter that they know the consequences, will still refuse to sign the dotted line. sad, but true.
Your arrogance is sickening. If you continue to believe that you are not as "sinful" as some, that you are better, or "less sinful" than other's, you will never fully understand the grace of God.
Romans says that we are all sinners. James says we're all guilty of breaking the law in it's entirety because to break one is to break them all. and 2 Chronicles says there is no partiality with God. however, nowhere does it say that all men have committed the same amount of sins. yes, James does say we have all broken the law in it's entirety but that does not mean we are all at the same amount of times we have broken it. it just means all of us have broken it all BECAUSE WE BROKE IT ONCE.

a person who rapes 100 women for pleasure is more sinful than someone who steals a candy bar. to deny this is just wrong. ask any jury (even one of all christians) which person is more sinful. 10 times out 10 it will be the person who rapes 100 women. why? because that's how it is.

i do not think there are "better" men out there because "better" implies you are already "good". there is no one good without Jesus. we BOTH agree on that ;) however, you can be more sinful than another person. in other words, to be more sinful just means you've committed more sins. it does not change the status between you and God. you are still seperated no matter how many times you sin. however, the more you sin the more sinful you become. that's just common sense.
Before God, you are just as vile and evil as Hitler. He could care less what atrocities you've done, or how many times you've done them; a sin is a sin is a sin, and they all lead to one thing - death.

A lot of people have trouble with "total depravity" because they do not like to look at themselves as "evil". They figure that they are generally "good" people, and that somehow God could find more favor and acceptance in them than someone else who sins more. No one likes to be thought of as the same as Hitler, but that's reality. As soon as you realize this simple truth, your humility will shatter new depths, and the realization of God's grace will explode beyond what you could ever imagine it to be. It will leave you speechless. It did me...
do you think all people will have the same punishment in hell?
Yes. Hell is seperation from God. I believe the only torment people will recieve there is from their own grief from a lack of all that is Life and Love; which is only found in God. Total seperation from Life/God is eternal death. That's hell.
i think that some will have it worse than others, because that's what justice does.
Would someone go to hell for only stealing one candy bar in life, or telling one little white lie? If so, what kind of "small punishment" would they recieve for all eternity?

You can't put sin on a scale. Doesn't matter how "much" or how "little" of it in your life you have; when placed on the scale before God it always equals a big fat DEATH wage. All who do not know Christ will forever be seperated from Him. There are no degrees of "badness".
you don't give a 5 year old who stole a candy bar the same sentence that a man who rapes 100 women gets.
Of course you wouldn't. Not on earth anyways. In real life however, no man is just guilty of one sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Our thoughts are nothing but evil continually. We reak with sin; even our righteousness before God is like a used toilet tissue on the floor of a public bathroom. Mankind is vile and evil and disgusting before the Holy, Almighty, Glorious, Perfect Creator of All.
no, all are NOT equally evil and sinful. you just think they are because of Total Depravity which i reject.
I have tons of biblical evidence to support my position. Where's yours?

[God_Is_Truth]

1Co 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Man in the flesh cannot have faith, then be saved and become spiritual. It's quite the opposite. The Holy Spirit of God must regenerate a man before he is able to beleive and confess that Jesus is Lord.


that is not what that verse is saying. it means that by the power of the holy spirit we declare Jesus to be our Lord. the only point at which this is going to happen is once a person has decided to put their faith in Christ. the holy spirit helps us in this by convicting us of our sins. once that happens, then we are able to accept the gospel, should we choose to, and thus, by the power of the holy spirit we declare Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. you however seem to think that it's ONLY by the Holy Spirit that we can declare it when it's a both action. through him, we can declare Jesus as Lord.

Still don't believe scripture? Maybe this passage will change your mind:

John 12:36-41
These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE, because Isaiah said again: "GOD has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should UNDERSTAND with their hearts and TURN, So that I should heal them." These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.


this was a very specific passage intended towards the people who were in power and in essence got him crucified. IT IS NOT intended for every single believer in all of time. that would be misapplying it.


John 6:35-36, 44
And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

NO ONE can come to Me UNLESS the Father who sent Me draws him...


that's simply explaining God's part in salvation. God draws people to himself. this is certainly not the only thing that occurs to bring a person to salvation. so stop jumping to conclusions. also:

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

thus, by YOUR reasonsing, all men should be saved! i'll bet smaller would become your best friend if you said that :chuckle:


Salvation is by grace, through faith. All of that is from God, faith included.

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God

Salvation by grace through faith is not of ourselves. Faith is not of ourselves. It's a gift from God. The faith that allows us to believe in His grace is from God. How much simpler could this verse get? If faith was from ourselves, we'd have something to boast in.


no, it does not say that the faith is from God. Romans 10:17 CLEARLY says faith comes BY HEARING. it cannot come BOTH by hearing and as a gift from God. that's like saying my toy came from both from a friend as a gift and as something i found on the street. it CAN'T be both. thus, your interpretation is incorrect.


I already went over this earlier. Man cannot believe in Christ unless the Holy Spirit allows them to believe and is indwelling inside them. Jesus Himself said no one could go to Him unless the Father draws them unto Him; grants them access. That's why Paul told Timothy

2 Timothy 2:25-26
those who are in opposition, may God perhaps grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

This verse alone defeats the argument that unbelievers have freewill. How can they, if they are captive of the devil's will? How can man have freewill when Jesus stated that:

Joh 8:34
Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.


grant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grnt)
tr.v. grant·ed, grant·ing, grants
To consent to the fulfillment of: grant a request.
To accord as a favor, prerogative, or privilege: granted the franchise to all citizens.

To bestow; confer: grant aid.
To transfer (property) by a deed.
To concede; acknowledge: I grant the genius of your plan, but you still will not find backers.

grant means to allow. God allows them to repent. it does not mean he supernaturaly empowers them to repent because they could not before. as for being a slave to sin, that's about the sinful nature and how we desire for things of it. but now, through Christ, we are a new creation and put the sinful nature to death.


Why? Who are you to declare God unrighteous? You're just a man! Far be it from God that He save anyone, let alone millions of people! And you have the audacity to declare God not good because He does not save some people??? Who are you to declare such a thing? You are literally pointing a finger at God and declaring that if He does save as I believe, and it's all in His hands, that He is totally obligated to save everyone, lest He be a "bad God".

That's despicable. A sinful, evil being such as yourself telling God what is right and what is wrong.


everything God does is good. it's good because he is good. thus, anything that is not good is something that God will not do. since what i stated is not good, it's clear that God will not do it. but you seem to uphold the sovereignty of God above his goodness so it doesn't really matter to you if God does something that is clearly not good :doh:


Thus salvation rest in our hands, not Gods. It's us who saves ourselves. God's waiting on us. He has nothing to do with it.

You don't get on a plane unless you go get a ticket. The only reason you get to fly anywhere is because you took the initiative to get the ticket. You're on the plane because YOU got a ticket yourself.

That's the way you believe about salvation. You're saved because YOU grabbed a ticket. You're going to heaven only because YOU took the first step. Has nothing to do with God.


God is the only one who saves. but, the decision of whether or not to be saved is in the hands of anyone who has heard the gospel.

as for your analogy, God is handing out tickets to whoever wants on the plane. he has enough for everyone and it's free for all. i'm saved because he offered me a ticket and i decided to take it (faith). God took the first step, not me. it has EVERYTHING to do with God.


You calling Jesus, Peter, Paul, John, and many, many other's ignorant?


no, they had free will too :D


Thus, Jesus did not die for them, since they will be paying for their own justice. Exactly what I've been saying!


Jesus paid their price, but it must be combined with faith. this is why the bible says we are saved by "faith in Jesus Christ". he alone saves us through our faith. this isn't hard stuff. you just don't see it cause you read everything with a calvinistic lens.


Your arrogance is sickening. If you continue to believe that you are not as "sinful" as some, that you are better, or "less sinful" than other's, you will never fully understand the grace of God.


arrogance? by stating that faith is SELF EMPTYING i am arrogant? what part of "Self Emptying" is arrogant? faith means trusting in nothing of yourself. it's the ones without faith in God who are arrogant because they are relying on their own works to save them.

as for grace, i find it hilarious that calvinists try to say God is MORE gracious in unconditionally (in other words, for absolutely no reason whatsoever) predestining (before they were born and probably from all eternity) only a FEW people to heaven when he's perfectly capable of doing this to all!

and this is where the funniest part of calvinism comes in. because of unconditional election (believers are unconditionally predestined to heaven from eternity past), there also exists unconditional reprobation. reprobation is damnation, the sentencing to hell. in other words, everyone not unconditionally elected is unconditionally reprobated! in other words, they are unconditionally (for absolutely no reason whatosever, if there was any reason it'd be a condition) predestined (destined before they were ever born and probably before eternity) to hell!

simply put:

CALVINISM SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL, NOT FOR THEIR SINS, BUT FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON!

wow, that sounds like a God of love :doh:


Before God, you are just as vile and evil as Hitler. He could care less what atrocities you've done, or how many times you've done them; a sin is a sin is a sin, and they all lead to one thing - death.


now come on. not all sins are alike. look at the justice system. different crimes, different penalties. i see this as the same for hell. every crime gets at least the penalty of eternal seperation from God, but i think that if you were more sinful in this life then you will have more torment in the afterlife. that is justice.


A lot of people have trouble with "total depravity" because they do not like to look at themselves as "evil". They figure that they are generally "good" people, and that somehow God could find more favor and acceptance in them than someone else who sins more. No one likes to be thought of as the same as Hitler, but that's reality. As soon as you realize this simple truth, your humility will shatter new depths, and the realization of God's grace will explode beyond what you could ever imagine it to be. It will leave you speechless. It did me...


there are different levels of evil, that's what i'm saying. i agree that we are all evil but to different degrees. that's what you don't like. you like to put all men into one group-evil-with the same measure of punishment despite the difference in crimes. do you seriously believe that Hilter should suffer exactly the same fate as the boy who lied one time to his mom about if he'd taken a cookie from the cookie jar? :nono: :down:

as for grace, would that be the same grace that unconditionally predestines people to hell for no good reason? :p


Yes. Hell is seperation from God. I believe the only torment people will recieve there is from their own grief from a lack of all that is Life and Love; which is only found in God. Total seperation from Life/God is eternal death. That's hell.


hell is personal. i believe it's a personal torment that's unique to each person based on the degree of the sins they committed. i can't say that this is what hell is for sure or from the bible, but that's how i imagine it and i haven't seen any bible verse that states otherwise. perhaps you know of one?



Would someone go to hell for only stealing one candy bar in life, or telling one little white lie? If so, what kind of "small punishment" would they recieve for all eternity?

You can't put sin on a scale. Doesn't matter how "much" or how "little" of it in your life you have; when placed on the scale before God it always equals a big fat DEATH wage. All who do not know Christ will forever be seperated from Him. There are no degrees of "badness".


once you sin, you're guilty of hell. that much we agree on. however, where does the bible say that no matter how much you sin you still get the same penalty?


Of course you wouldn't. Not on earth anyways. In real life however, no man is just guilty of one sin. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Our thoughts are nothing but evil continually. We reak with sin; even our righteousness before God is like a used toilet tissue on the floor of a public bathroom. Mankind is vile and evil and disgusting before the Holy, Almighty, Glorious, Perfect Creator of All.


i wouldn't because it's unjust. and since God is just, i fail to see why he would either.


I have tons of biblical evidence to support my position. Where's yours?

you have verses that you twist to use to fit your preconceived notion of total depravity. my support is the rest of the bible, specifically where it calls on ALL men to repent and seek God-an injust and cruel thing to do if it's impossible for them to do.

God Bless You.

In Christ,

God_Is_Truth

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

that is not what that verse is saying. it means that by the power of the holy spirit we declare Jesus to be our Lord. the only point at which this is going to happen is once a person has decided to put their faith in Christ. the holy spirit helps us in this by convicting us of our sins. once that happens, then we are able to accept the gospel, should we choose to, and thus, by the power of the holy spirit we declare Jesus to be our Lord and Savior. you however seem to think that it's ONLY by the Holy Spirit that we can declare it when it's a both action. through him, we can declare Jesus as Lord.
The verse says specifically that no one can declare Jesus Lord UNLESS it's by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit must possess a man to make such a comment, because this verse tells us so. No man in their carnal mind can make such a statement. Paul tells us in Romans 8 that the carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot please Him. Repentance pleases God, thus there is no possible way that man in their carnal mind can ever do such a thing. They don't desire too. It must take a change of heart and mind, from carnal to spiritual, before man ever accepts and declares Christ as King. Does everyone do this? Of course not, thus the Holy Spirit seems to be selective in who He chooses to regenerate.

Jesus said in John:

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

In other words, like the wind, the Holy Spirit "blows" where HE wishes. It's not a choice by man, but rather a choice by God who does and does not receive salvation.
John 12:36-41
These things Jesus spoke, and departed, and was hidden from them.

But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they COULD NOT BELIEVE, because Isaiah said again: "GOD has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should UNDERSTAND with their hearts and TURN, So that I should heal them." These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.
this was a very specific passage intended towards the people who were in power and in essence got him crucified. IT IS NOT intended for every single believer in all of time. that would be misapplying it.
The point still stands that they did not believe BECAUSE God would not allow them to. That's why people today do not believe; God has not granted them repentance. He has not opened their eyes or their hearts to His truth. He has His reasons.

In those days, God did not allow them to believe because He knew His Son had to die to bring salvation to many. The end result is to ultimately glorify Himself. Same reasons today that He does not allow some to believe - to glorify Himself.

You said you did not understand why some people do not accept Christ after hearing the message. Well, this passage answers that question for you.
John 6:35-36, 44
And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

NO ONE can come to Me UNLESS the Father who sent Me draws him...
that's simply explaining God's part in salvation. God draws people to himself. this is certainly not the only thing that occurs to bring a person to salvation. so stop jumping to conclusions.
Ahhh.. but did you read the rest of the passage? Christ continues with:

John 6:36, 44
All that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Therefore, Christ was talking about salvation. Those whom God does draw to Christ WILL go to Him. Jesus didn't say, "Well, they might come to me". Nope; He specifically says that no one can come to Him UNLESS God the Father allows them too, and those who He draws WILL go to Him, and Christ will not cast them out; He WILL raise them up at the last day.
also:

John 12:32
But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

thus, by YOUR reasonsing, all men should be saved! i'll bet smaller would become your best friend if you said that :chuckle:
I just proved through scripture that those whom God draws to Christ WILL go to Him (irresistable grace), and Jesus said He would raise them up on the last day. Since we agree that not all are saved, then this verse must not be implying everyone on the planet, from past to present. All simply means Jews and Gentiles alike. As Jesus said in John 10:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

I believe that Christ died for anyone, not everyone.
no, it does not say that the faith is from God. Romans 10:17 CLEARLY says faith comes BY HEARING. it cannot come BOTH by hearing and as a gift from God. that's like saying my toy came from both from a friend as a gift and as something i found on the street. it CAN'T be both. thus, your interpretation is incorrect.
No it's not. God has chosen the means of giving His free gift through the hearing of the gospel message. It's like if your friend was to choose to give you your gift by placing it on the street.

God doesn't just spontaneously save people; He chose to do it through the hearing and preaching of the gospel message. All who hear the gospel message have seeds planted within their souls, but nothing will grow unless God gives it increase. Just as Paul stated:

1Co 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.
grant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (grnt)
tr.v. grant·ed, grant·ing, grants
To consent to the fulfillment of: grant a request.
To accord as a favor, prerogative, or privilege: granted the franchise to all citizens.

To bestow; confer: grant aid.
To transfer (property) by a deed.
To concede; acknowledge: I grant the genius of your plan, but you still will not find backers.

grant means to allow. God allows them to repent. it does not mean he supernaturaly empowers them to repent because they could not before.
The verse still stands: UNLESS God allows people to repent, they never will on their own. It's not up to us whether we recieve salvation or not; it's up to God. This verse proves that.
as for being a slave to sin, that's about the sinful nature and how we desire for things of it. but now, through Christ, we are a new creation and put the sinful nature to death.
Of course; because we're saved! But before Christ saved us, we had no freewill. We were slaves to sin and the devil's will. People who are saved only sin by a willful choice. Non-believer's do not have that option. They are slaves to sin.
everything God does is good. it's good because he is good. thus, anything that is not good is something that God will not do.
God murdered a whole city, killed thousands of babies, even David's son, wiped out nearly the whole population of man, and even killed His own Son. Are these things "good"?

Because God did them for a righteous purpose, of course they are good. But do you think it would be right for a man to murder nearly all of mankind? Of course not. What we consider "good" and "bad" is not necessarily the same rules God must follow. Whatever He does is for good. That includes saving or not saving whom He wishes.

Romans 9:15-16
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.
God is the only one who saves. but, the decision of whether or not to be saved is in the hands of anyone who has heard the gospel.
I already presented scripture that proves that no man can be saved unless God grants them permission and give them His Holy Spirit; unless God draws them to Christ in whom will never cast them out and will raise them up on the last day. Only by the Spirit can man declare Jesus as Lord.
no, they had free will too :D
Only because they were believers.
Jesus paid their price, but it must be combined with faith.
Thus salvation is not all God. We must add to it, according to you.
arrogance? by stating that faith is SELF EMPTYING i am arrogant?
No. I underlined what I was referring to. Because you said it was sad how other's do not accept the gospel message.

It's arragont to believe that you were able to accept what they cannot, for their own inabilitating reasons which you claim to not posses because you believed.
as for grace, i find it hilarious that calvinists try to say God is MORE gracious in unconditionally (in other words, for absolutely no reason whatsoever) predestining (before they were born and probably from all eternity) only a FEW people to heaven when he's perfectly capable of doing this to all!

and this is where the funniest part of calvinism comes in. because of unconditional election (believers are unconditionally predestined to heaven from eternity past), there also exists unconditional reprobation. reprobation is damnation, the sentencing to hell. in other words, everyone not unconditionally elected is unconditionally reprobated! in other words, they are unconditionally (for absolutely no reason whatosever, if there was any reason it'd be a condition) predestined (destined before they were ever born and probably before eternity) to hell!

simply put:

CALVINISM SENDS PEOPLE TO HELL, NOT FOR THEIR SINS, BUT FOR ABSOLUTELY NO REASON!

wow, that sounds like a God of love :doh:
You speak ingnorance of my beliefs when you make such an irrational statement. People go to hell to pay for their sins since Christ did not pay for them on the cross. And they deserve that. All men do. Christ didn't have to die for anyone. God's not mean for not saving them; on the contrary, it can be argued that He is wrong for saving people period.
now come on. not all sins are alike. look at the justice system. different crimes, different penalties.
To us they seem different, but before God all men are equally sinful. No one can find "more favor" in His sight based on their "good works". All sin and have fallen short of His glory. We all have missed the mark.
there are different levels of evil, that's what i'm saying. i agree that we are all evil but to different degrees. that's what you don't like. you like to put all men into one group-evil-with the same measure of punishment despite the difference in crimes. do you seriously believe that Hilter should suffer exactly the same fate as the boy who lied one time to his mom about if he'd taken a cookie from the cookie jar? :nono: :down:
No person is guilty of only one sin. I don't like your "theory" that there are varying degrees of evil because it implies that there must also be varying degrees of "goodness", obvously. If you are less evil than someone who commits more sin, then you are better than they. I hate that notion. No man is better than any other man before the eyes of God. No one can find favor in His eyes through their works. It's contrary to scripture, and it nulls/takes away from what Christ did on the cross. It lessens grace, and that's why I hate any doctrine that does not agree with "total depravity".
as for grace, would that be the same grace that unconditionally predestines people to hell for no good reason? :p
God has His reasons. It's ironic how you, a vile and disgustingly evil human can boldly declare what is righteous for God to do and what is not. He does whatever He pleases, and your thoughts do not matter. His plans will not be thwarted. May all things be done to glorify God, even if it means that some must be destroyed. It's His "garden"; can He not do with it what He pleases?
you have verses that you twist to use to fit your preconceived notion of total depravity. my support is the rest of the bible, specifically where it calls on ALL men to repent and seek God-an injust and cruel thing to do if it's impossible for them to do.
No one has twisted scripture; you know that. To declare that I am obviously and blatantly trying to twist scripture to fit some sort of preconceived notion of mine - to fit my agenda - is a flat out lie. I only read and interpret scripture the way I see it. May it glorify God in all things.

I present the scriptures, but lately, all I've seen you do is say, "Well, that's not what it really means...", without presenting any kind of evidence that could suggest otherwise. I could care less how you feel about it; prove to me scripturally that God has left salvation in the hands of man.

[God_Is_Truth]

The verse says specifically that no one can declare Jesus Lord UNLESS it's by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit must possess a man to make such a comment, because this verse tells us so. No man in their carnal mind can make such a statement. Paul tells us in Romans 8 that the carnal mind is enmity against God and cannot please Him. Repentance pleases God, thus there is no possible way that man in their carnal mind can ever do such a thing. They don't desire too. It must take a change of heart and mind, from carnal to spiritual, before man ever accepts and declares Christ as King. Does everyone do this? Of course not, thus the Holy Spirit seems to be selective in who He chooses to regenerate.


are you suggesting that the holy spirit takes possession of a person so that they lose control whenever they say Jesus is Lord? but i thought you said they had free will? can't have it both ways, better reinterpret one of them.

it does say that the carnal MIND is emnity to God. however, does it say that the man can't change his mind and repent of the carnal mind he had? no, it doesn't. and that's exactly what each man is fully capable of doing: repenting.


Jesus said in John:

John 3:8
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

In other words, like the wind, the Holy Spirit "blows" where HE wishes. It's not a choice by man, but rather a choice by God who does and does not receive salvation.


wherever be blows is about jews and gentiles. he is not obligated to just one group, but blows wherever he wishes. this does not NECESSARILY mean he goes to individual persons and regenerates them and thus they are saved. that would be reading far too much into that passage of scripture than it says.


The point still stands that they did not believe BECAUSE God would not allow them to. That's why people today do not believe; God has not granted them repentance. He has not opened their eyes or their hearts to His truth. He has His reasons.


God blinded them from seeing what was truly there UNTIL everything had been accomplished. THEN they saw what was really there. this is not a universal doctrine of all unbelievers.


In those days, God did not allow them to believe because He knew His Son had to die to bring salvation to many. The end result is to ultimately glorify Himself. Same reasons today that He does not allow some to believe - to glorify Himself.


God does not allow some to believe in order to glorify himself? PLEASE! that is so contradictory to the bible that it makes my ears hurt! if i EVER heard a preacher say something to that effect i would probably switch churches.


You said you did not understand why some people do not accept Christ after hearing the message. Well, this passage answers that question for you.


they don't accept it because they choose not to. no reason is required or necessary. they simply choose no too. there usually is a reason, but it varies from person to person. could be a bad experience growing up, friend gone wrong with religion. could be anything.


Ahhh.. but did you read the rest of the passage? Christ continues with:

John 6:36, 44
All that the Father gives Me WILL come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Therefore, Christ was talking about salvation. Those whom God does draw to Christ WILL go to Him. Jesus didn't say, "Well, they might come to me". Nope; He specifically says that no one can come to Him UNLESS God the Father allows them too, and those who He draws WILL go to Him, and Christ will not cast them out; He WILL raise them up at the last day.


all that the father GIVES. who will the father give? all those who put their faith in God! all those who repent of their sins and wish to be forgiven, those are who the father will give to the Son. but before the father gives them to the Son, he draws them.


I just proved through scripture that those whom God draws to Christ WILL go to Him (irresistable grace), and Jesus said He would raise them up on the last day. Since we agree that not all are saved, then this verse must not be implying everyone on the planet, from past to present. All simply means Jews and Gentiles alike. As Jesus said in John 10:

John 10:16
And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

I believe that Christ died for anyone, not everyone.


that is NOT irresistible grace as i have just shown. Jesus is drawing all (really all, not just some of each group, but ALL) men to himself through the father.


No it's not. God has chosen the means of giving His free gift through the hearing of the gospel message. It's like if your friend was to choose to give you your gift by placing it on the street.

God doesn't just spontaneously save people; He chose to do it through the hearing and preaching of the gospel message. All who hear the gospel message have seeds planted within their souls, but nothing will grow unless God gives it increase. Just as Paul stated:

1Co 3:6
I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase.


look, mormons have faith. jehovas witnesses have faith. muslims have faith. if faith comes from God then they also got their faith from God. are you going to say that God now gives false faith to people? does he do THAT for his glory as well? :nono:


The verse still stands: UNLESS God allows people to repent, they never will on their own. It's not up to us whether we recieve salvation or not; it's up to God. This verse proves that.


do you really believe that God won't let someone repent if they want to? come on! would a God of love stop someone from repenting of their sins! get real! it's up to us to repent while God is still allowing us to because once we die, God no longer will grant us repentence.


Of course; because we're saved! But before Christ saved us, we had no freewill. We were slaves to sin and the devil's will. People who are saved only sin by a willful choice. Non-believer's do not have that option. They are slaves to sin.


do slaves have free will? certainly! can slaves not run away from their masters to someone who will protect them? surely they can! being a slave to someone means that you serve them and do their work for them. it DOES NOT mean that one doesn't have free will.


God murdered a whole city, killed thousands of babies, even David's son, wiped out nearly the whole population of man, and even killed His own Son. Are these things "good"?


if they were a form of judgement upon a city then it was justice and justice is good, so yes, they were good.


Because God did them for a righteous purpose, of course they are good. But do you think it would be right for a man to murder nearly all of mankind? Of course not. What we consider "good" and "bad" is not necessarily the same rules God must follow. Whatever He does is for good. That includes saving or not saving whom He wishes.


wow, so you believe that not saving everyone is a GOOD thing? ok, let's make sure i got this. you, Z Man are saying:

GOD NOT SAVING EVERYONE, BECAUSE HE DECIDES NOT TO, IS A GOOD THING

that's really sad Z Man. God wants EVERYONE to be saved because being saved is a good thing. is it good to let someone drown when you are perfectly capable of saving them and they want to be saved? NO! is it good to let someone stand next to a bomb that is about to blow up when you are fully capable of defusing it and they want you to? NO!

1 Timothy 2:4
who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth

the bible says God wants all men to be saved. it doesn't say men from all groups i.e. jews and gentiles, but ALL MEN. ALL MEN MEANS ALL MEN without exception. thus, your statement that God only wishes to save a few cannot be correct.


Romans 9:15-16
For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion." So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.


God has the right to make the basis of salvation on faith and not of works. he is sovereign and retains that right. THAT'S the context of the passage. here's a link that explains this in full.

http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/Custom/4/Documents/beltstudies.htm


I already presented scripture that proves that no man can be saved unless God grants them permission and give them His Holy Spirit; unless God draws them to Christ in whom will never cast them out and will raise them up on the last day. Only by the Spirit can man declare Jesus as Lord.


you made it sound like a believe become possessed by the Spirit each time he or she says it. one may certainly come to Christ, ask for forgiveness of sins, and then, having his sins forgiven, declare Jesus as Lord through the Holy Spirit. it is not necessary to be taken control of by the Spirit so as to lose control every time one declares Jesus as Lord.


Thus salvation is not all God. W