Any other progressive or liberal Christians here? [Archive] - Theology Forum

Sozo

March 1st, 2004, 01:50 PM

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

This site has a good explanation of progressive/liberal Christianity:
http://www.geocities.com/lib_christian_2000/liberal.htm

"Indeed, liberal Christians are quick to point out that the falleness and imperfection of its human authors gives the Bible an imperfect quality and authority."

"For many liberal Christians, social justice is a central concern, and the transformation of society, rather than that of the individual, is more typically stressed. Equality for racial minorities, women, homosexuals, and the economically disadvantaged is seen as an essential part of the Gospel message. A concern for the environment, and other typically liberal social issues, also find a great deal of support among liberal Christians."

"First of all let me say that I do think that the Resurrection was real"

I think "liberal christians should be gathered up and placed on a nuclear testing site

Ross

March 1st, 2004, 01:55 PM

Sozo,

I'm sorry you feel like that. I'll pray for you tonight that God will allow the scales to drop from your eyes and you can see the truth.

Ross

Lucky

March 1st, 2004, 01:58 PM

Wow, Ross is insanely brave.

Sozo

March 1st, 2004, 02:00 PM

Originally posted by Ross

Sozo,

I'm sorry you feel like that. I'll pray for you tonight

Will you be holding your boyfriends hand at the time?

Knight

March 1st, 2004, 02:06 PM

GreenPartyVoter, easy on the links OK?

We get the picture... you want traffic for your site.

Knight

March 1st, 2004, 02:06 PM

:troll:

GreenPartyVoter

March 1st, 2004, 02:07 PM

Sozo, I did ask for folks who believed differently not to put their two cents in. I, too, will be praying for you on this subject.

Ross, I am trying to get my agnostic dad to read Borg's books, if for nothing else but to really show him that there are other ways to perceive God and Jesus.

Duder, yes we are out there. Quiet, but out there. I have a list of denoms on my site. Maybe you could check out one of those churches in your area sometime?

Lucky, thanks for those links. That's pretty much the sort of thing I was trying to avoid in THIS thread. :P

Sozo

March 1st, 2004, 02:08 PM

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

NOT looking for a debate from folks who believe differently, just want a headcount of those who consider themselves progressives.
:BillyBob:

GreenPartyVoter

March 1st, 2004, 02:09 PM

There, have removed most of the links in question, Knight. :)

Knight

March 1st, 2004, 02:12 PM

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

There, have removed most of the links in question, Knight. :) No big deal... I just didn't want you to get too carried away. :)

GreenPartyVoter

March 1st, 2004, 02:12 PM

Out of curiosity, what denom of church do you guys attend (if any)?

I actually don't go to a liberal church. Hubby is not a liberal Christian so we go to his church of choice.

GreenPartyVoter

March 1st, 2004, 02:13 PM

Knight, sorry, I'm just excited. *g*

Ross

March 1st, 2004, 02:17 PM

Don't attend. Althought I haven't looked that hard. Was raised as a Missouria Synod Lutheran, so I went a Evangelical Lutheran CHurch a couple of times. Not bad. I've been thinking about Church of Christ or Episcopalaen.

GreenPartyVoter

March 1st, 2004, 02:22 PM

All of those denoms sound good to me. I know the UCC is very liberal. I know Pastors from both the Episcopalian and UCC churches and I just love them. Very gentle and warm folks. (Actually I played D & D for years with the Episcopalian ministers before I even realized that they WERE ministers.) *lol*

Knight

March 1st, 2004, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

Out of curiosity, what denom of church do you guys attend (if any)?

I actually don't go to a liberal church. Hubby is not a liberal Christian so we go to his church of choice. http://www.denverbiblechurch.org/

GreenPartyVoter

March 1st, 2004, 02:54 PM

Knight, your church seems similar in some way to the one we go to. (Hubby was raised Nazarene, which is a fairly conservative charismatic evangelical denom. But they get a big thumbs up from me because they let women: wear make up, wear pants, and be pastors. :D )

Lucky

March 1st, 2004, 03:02 PM

Women shouldn't be pastors.

GreenPartyVoter

March 1st, 2004, 03:11 PM

Lucky, well we're going to have to agree to disagree on that. :)

Jabez

March 1st, 2004, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Lucky

Women shouldn't be pastors. :thumb:

Sozo

March 1st, 2004, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

... well we're going to have to agree to disagree on that. :)

Will this be the same comment you use when God says that He never knew you?

Granite

March 1st, 2004, 03:43 PM

Jeez. Everybody lighten up...

Sozo

March 1st, 2004, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by granite1010

Jeez. Everybody lighten up...

Are you a closet liberal?

GreenPartyVoter

March 1st, 2004, 03:47 PM

Hi Granite. Love your sig quotes!

It would seem they just can't do it. Some of those conservative Christians are so irked by liberals they just can't keep from sticking their oars in, even after being asked nicely not to. *l*

Granite

March 1st, 2004, 04:19 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

Are you a closet liberal?

What's the point of a stupid question like that? Anyway, you should know better. I'll spell it out so everybody can understand: I'm conservative in my politics (and if I was liberal, given my temperment, you'd have no doubt; none of this "closet" nonsense).

Nobody's going to hell over women being ministers, that was my point. I don't agree with the ordination of women but it's not a hellfire issue. That's all.

P.S. Welcome to TOL, Green.

Sozo

March 1st, 2004, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by granite1010

What's the point of a stupid question like that?

I think you need to do more research of the evil men that you are giving your support.

Do you approve of the ordination of homos?

Freak

March 1st, 2004, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Sozo to Granite

I think you need to do more research of the evil men that you are giving your support.

Do you approve of the ordination of homos?

Sozo, you have aligned yourself with the homosexual community, by hating the Passion movie. Perhaps, you're a closet homosexual. Are you?

Originally posted by Freak

Sozo, you saw the movie. Were you deceived?

Originally posted by Sozo

Yes.

I had honestly hoped that the movie would give the message of the gospel, but it fell short.

Maybe some good will come of it, but I doubt it.

A movie that presents the death and resurrection of Christ is denounced by someone (Sozo) who claims Christ. Go figure.

OMEGA

March 1st, 2004, 05:04 PM

GreenPartyVoter

What do you guys think about Gay Marriages ???

Granite

March 1st, 2004, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

I think you need to do more research of the evil men that you are giving your support.

Do you approve of the ordination of homos?

Mmm? What was that?

Oh yes: the sound of this hackjob being banned.:D

Dave Miller

March 1st, 2004, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Duder

I am liberal and progressive.

I have refused, however, to call myself a Christian. I could chage my mind about that if there are really Christians such as you describe on your site.

Come on back, Duder. Don't let the "meaner than God" crowd
fool you by saying you are "nicer than God." I think just that
accusation lets you knowwhose in the right.

That is a good website by the way.

My distinctions between liberal and conservative (besides
right and wrong ;) ) are

1. Liberals emphasize the Grace of God over the Judgement of
God. Both are Scriptural

2. Liberals view God in terms of Infinity, while conservatives
view God in terms of a singularity, i.e. single source of all
truth and justice.

Without liberal Christianity, we would still have slavery in the US.
However, Liberalism went off the deep end when social justice
programs left God behind.

Its easy to shout judgements and quote scripture. Its a little
harder to love first. Its probably the most difficult to love
first and still maintain scriptural integrity, i.e. fulfill scripture,
but that's exactly what Christ did, so ti seems that the hard,
narrow path is the right one...

Dave

Cyrus of Persia

March 1st, 2004, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

This site has a good explanation of progressive/liberal Christianity:
http://www.geocities.com/lib_christian_2000/liberal.htm

According this site i'm liberal christian in most parametres showed there.

Progressive? If you mean progress in my spiritual journey and not wanting to keep my mind, my spirit and my actions in religious kindergarten level, then i'm progressive, yes.

But one of those things i hate with great hatered is to give myself any label. So no, im not liberal, nor conservative :mad:

Cyrus of Persia

March 1st, 2004, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

I think "liberal christians should be gathered up and placed on a nuclear testing site[/b]

Wow. Is this the expression that identifies "conservative christians"?

/me feels scared and hopes that Holy Spirit Sozo believes in will lead him one day to passages where Jesus talks about love, so Sozo hopefully never repeats what his forefathers did around inquisition fires

:help:

Cyrus of Persia

March 1st, 2004, 08:10 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

You are a faggot and your wife is a whore.

Your kids are bastards.

Hmm, i thought that somebody might hacked to Sozo's account, because i didnt never seen anybody who claims to be good christian (and he is exalting himself over "bad" liberal christians) using such expressions. But seeing his title "intolerant"....

Well, i learned a lot about you in this thread :noway: but i hope you will get rid with this habit one happy day :angel:

Anyway, i'm from babtist-evangelical christian freechurch as somebody asked about denomination.

Dave Miller

March 1st, 2004, 08:20 PM

Liberal or conservative, either way being Christian means
accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. Everything else
is just squabbling over details.

Dave

GreenPartyVoter

March 2nd, 2004, 06:46 AM

Omega, I personally don't have a problem with gay civil unions or marriages, but I think it is up to the individual states or cities and individual denominations to decide rather than the federal gov't. (At this point I think many folks are hiding behind the purity codes of Leviticus so that they have a "right" to hate someone different from themselves. But I figure if they've eaten shellfish despite that book telling them not to, well then they are just as screwed as the folks they love to hate. But that's just my interpretation of the situation.)

CyrusOfPersia: I understand about not liking labels; they are both freeing and confining all at once.

Dave, I agree that a lot of good has been done by liberals. I'm all for separation of church and state though, so it would be hard to work God back into the social programs. (I'm not an advocate for dropping those programs, though, by any means.)

And I agree with your sentiment about what it means to be a Christian. Everything else is academic. Which is what I keep telling my far more traditionally conservative hubby, but he's not so sure about that. He's sure I am going to say something in Sunday School class to embarass him or worse, teach our children "the wrong things". :(

Granite

March 2nd, 2004, 07:12 AM

Both conservative and liberal Christians seem to think they happen to represent the mainstream. Interesting conclusion.

While I don't identify myself as liberal I think it's possible to have a rational discussion with those we disagree with and it's very likely we have a thing or two to learn as well as share.

GreenPartyVoter

March 2nd, 2004, 07:29 AM

Granite, it's true that it's not good for us to sequester ourselves away from people who think differently. Partly because challenges to our way of thinking help us to grow, but also so we can practice having love, compassion, and tolerance.

Jabez

March 2nd, 2004, 08:03 AM

GreenPartyVoter
Omega, I personally don't have a problem with gay civil unions or marriages

How can a Christian say that?

Dave Miller

March 2nd, 2004, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Jabez

GreenPartyVoter

How can a Christian say that?

By placing the values of love, commitment, and fidelity over
those of hate and mistrust.

Dave

GreenPartyVoter

March 2nd, 2004, 12:57 PM

Jabez, it is my understanding that "A Place at the Table" by Bawer and "The Good Book" by Gomes both deal with that question in detail. You might try reading them to see what they say.

Knight

March 2nd, 2004, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by Dave Miller

By placing the values of love, commitment, and fidelity over
those of hate and mistrust.

Dave Or more accurately... by placing ones OWN moral's and value's over those of God Almighty.

Dave Miller

March 2nd, 2004, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Knight

Or more accurately... by placing ones OWN moral's and value's over those of God Almighty.

Or, more accurately, by placing BIBLICALLY SOUND MORAL
PRECEPTS like love, fidelity, and commitment over
those of hate and mistrust, also found in the bible.

Dave

Cyrus of Persia

March 2nd, 2004, 05:48 PM

Originally posted by Jabez

GreenPartyVoter

How can a Christian say that?

Hmm, i dont have the problem either. I'm not gay, nor do i approve what they do. But i dont have problem with them either, because we dont live in theocratical society (at least most posters here i assume, dont live in Iran, or in some similar country). What right do i have to say to person who is gay that he needs to repent from it? His problem is not that he is gay. His problem is that he hasnt yet found salvation by Jesus. This is his "sin" if we can say so.

Notice: i dont want here to take discussion over those who are gays and christians in same time. It probably belongs to some other thread.

Dave Miller

March 2nd, 2004, 07:09 PM

many many other threads to choose from :)

Dave

Ezekiel

March 2nd, 2004, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

Jabez, it is my understanding that "A Place at the Table" by Bawer and "The Good Book" by Gomes both deal with that question in detail. You might try reading them to see what they say.

Perhaps, he should just read the bible?

Yes, we are to love others.. But can you show me where Christ taught that we should condone sin?

Perhaps I am wrong here, but isn't accepting something very similar to condoning it?

I suppose in the name of love we should except anything that society can throw at us regardless of any moral implications they have on children and ultimately on our society as a whole!

Shalom Elohim

Dave Miller

March 2nd, 2004, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by Ezekiel

Perhaps, he should just read the bible?

Yes, we are to love others.. But can you show me where Christ taught that we should condone sin?

Not condone sin, but accept sinners

Perhaps I am wrong here, but isn't accepting something very similar to condoning it?

Not unless you participate in it yourself. Like the difference
between discerning and judging. Discerning is how you
think it applies to you personally, judging is how you think
others should act.

I suppose in the name of love we should except anything that society can throw at us regardless of any moral implications they have on children and ultimately on our society as a whole!

Shalom Elohim

In the name of Love we need to discern which values have more
weight: promiscuity or fidelity, hate or love, fear or
understanding.

To reject homosexual commitments leaves no alternatives but
celibacy, less likely, or promiscuity, more likely. Promiscuity in
the H community often leads to death. We have a moral
responsibility to the physical well being of people in the gay
and hetero communities to promote lifestyles of exclusive
commitment, they save lives, both homo and heterosexual.

Hate is used most often in scripture as a verb of rejection.
Rejection is hatred.

Fear is what motivates most hatred. Come to know a homosexual
person personally, you will find that they are worthy of God's
Grace as well.

Dave Miller

crunchie

March 2nd, 2004, 08:42 PM

Are WE not to tell them to 'Go, & sin no more?' Or 'Go, & do it until you're saved?' There are not many things that God called an 'abomination,' but homosexuality was one of them.

Ezekiel

March 2nd, 2004, 09:05 PM

In the name of Love we need to discern which values have more
weight: promiscuity or fidelity, hate or love, fear or
understanding.

:confused: Discern which values have more Weight? You joking right?

To reject homosexual commitments leaves no alternatives but
celibacy, less likely, or promiscuity, more likely. Promiscuity in
the H community often leads to death.

So based on this logic, we, as Christians should just except deviant behaviour because some ppl are too weak to control themselves.

Is this what you believe Jesus taught?

We have a moral
responsibility to the physical well being of people in the gay
and hetero communities to promote lifestyles of exclusive
commitment, they save lives, both homo and heterosexual.

Uhmm... No we don't!

We do however have an obligation to Christ Jesus to speak the truth regarding the requirements for not only salvation, but a life that is pure according to his word.

Hate is used most often in scripture as a verb of rejection.
Rejection is hatred.

Fear is what motivates most hatred. Come to know a homosexual
person personally, you will find that they are worthy of God's
Grace as well.

Dave Miller

I do know many Homosexuals Dave. An I can tell you honestly that I am not afraid of any of them.. Why should I be?

I don't hate homosexuals. But I don't beleive in condoning sin either..

Thank the Most High that he has placed ppl in my life who have the courage & strength to hold me accountable for my actions..

Which has been why I have made some of my greatest gains in the faith.

But, Just so we are clear on this..No one is worthy of GOD'S Grace. Hence, why it is called Grace!

Shalom

brother Willi

March 2nd, 2004, 09:23 PM

I have a question
why do gay folks need to get married?
its not like they are gonna raise kids.

Is this an idea the layers came up with?
think of all the extra work they would get when the gay folks want a divorce.

I dont hate gay folks, Daisy has an uncle who is gay.
I love him just as I love all her family.
but he wount be baby sittin our young one

Chileice

March 3rd, 2004, 05:49 AM

Originally posted by granite1010

Both conservative and liberal Christians seem to think they happen to represent the mainstream. Interesting conclusion.

While I don't identify myself as liberal I think it's possible to have a rational discussion with those we disagree with and it's very likely we have a thing or two to learn as well as share.

YES!!!:thumb:

Chileice

March 3rd, 2004, 06:36 AM

Originally posted by Ezekiel

So based on this logic, we, as Christians should just except deviant behaviour because some ppl are too weak to control themselves.
I think, Ezekiel, the difference between morality and ethics is where we are having a communication breakdown. I believe in the morality taught by the Bible. I believe homosexuality is a deviant behaviour and is not God's ideal plan. I expect Dave believes that too. The problem is that not everyone does. They choose to behave in a way that is not consistent with the morality of the Bible. So in an an ethical way we must determine what is worse for them as people and for the society as a whole. Is promiscuous homosexual sex worse for society (ethically, not morally) than monogamous homosexual sex? I would say yes. It is far worse because it promotes the spread of AIDS, causes more hurt and heartache in general and spreads the chance that more people will act in an immoral way as they seek other partners.

Originally posted by Ezekiel
We do however have an obligation to Christ Jesus to speak the truth regarding the requirements for not only salvation, but a life that is pure according to his word.
I also agree with you on this statement. We can and should be clear to proclaim what the morality of the Bible is and to set it as the ideal standard of behaviour. We should do that in every area, not just sexuality. What is God's standard regarding anger, lust, gossip, hatred, drunkenness, etc.? We should proclaim those standards and live by them. But we also have to admit not all will live by all the standards (including you and me) because of our sinful nature or, in rare instances, because of circumstances beyond our control.

Therefore, in a pluralistic society we try to establish laws that will promote an ethic that will not condone sin but that will not condemn every sin lest we all be in prison. Somehow, we have deemed that gossip is not a punishible offense in spite of the fact it is hurtful. It is only punishible if it is completely flase and malicious in which case we call it slander. Either way, morally, God calls it sin. Ethically and legally, one is illegal and the other is not.

Originally posted by Ezekiel
I don't hate homosexuals. But I don't beleive in condoning sin either..

Thank the Most High that he has placed ppl in my life who have the courage & strength to hold me accountable for my actions..

Which has been why I have made some of my greatest gains in the faith.

But, Just so we are clear on this..No one is worthy of GOD'S Grace. Hence, why it is called Grace!
You are so right. Grace is grace whether to a drunk, a gossip, an adulterer, a homosexual or to a fighter. God's grace is made manifest in Jesus. His grace is sufficient for one and for all. To each one who will yield to him there is forgiveness and strength to help in time of need.

Cyrus of Persia

March 3rd, 2004, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by crunchie

Are WE not to tell them to 'Go, & sin no more?' Or 'Go, & do it until you're saved?' There are not many things that God called an 'abomination,' but homosexuality was one of them.

IMO we are not called to say anything about their habits, we are called to proclaim Gospel of Peace to them.

And this Gospel doesnt start with: "DO NOT!", but with something else.

Frank Ernest

March 3rd, 2004, 06:49 AM

And so we have "Christians" who trump one part of God's Word (label: hate and mistrust) with another part of God's Word (label: love, commitment, etc.)

Christians who follow God's Word are guilty of hate.
Christians who follow only that part of God's Word they agree with are loving etc.

Interesting mix. Self-serving, but interesting. But, Please, inform this terminally conservative (non-progressive) Christian how one decides which part of God's Word encourage one to love (acceptable) and which part of God's Word encourage one to hate (unacceptable).

GreenPartyVoter

March 3rd, 2004, 07:02 AM

Frank, we can't tell you that. No one can tell another how to believe. We can only tell you what we feel the Spirit has laid on our own hearts. It's up to you to find out what the Spirit is telling you.

Ezekiel

March 3rd, 2004, 10:59 AM

For what it's worth,

It is out of love that we correct or children, and hold each other accountable..

Indeed, dying form Aids is hellish. (I have had family memebers die from Aids).

But what should concern us most isn't the physical death that ppl die but the eternal.

It's is because of God's love & Grace in our own lives that we must speak the truth..

Shalom Elohim Adonai,

Ezekiel

Jabez

March 3rd, 2004, 11:21 AM

1 Corinthians 6:9 (KJV)
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Corinthians 6:9 (NIV)
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders

Frank Ernest

March 4th, 2004, 04:02 AM

No one can tell Frankie how to believe? 'Course not, but there doesn't seem to be a shortage of folks who can tell Frankie WHAT to believe.

Especially when it comes to ensnaring arguments about "relative" truth and personal politics trumping God's Word. And suggesting that God Teaches hate one place and love another. And suggesting that to love a sinner carries with it a Christian obligation to approve of and confirm the sin.

God's Word is God's Word. It doesn't change to suit the times or because someone thinks it is outmoded because of some scientific, sociological, or political nuance. Doesn't change because an "enlightened" someone, somewhere decides to worship trees and animals.

If one doesn't like the rules, one should not play the game.

Dave Miller

March 4th, 2004, 04:57 AM

The moral core of sin is to harm one's self and / or others. God's
interest in our sinfullness or righteousness is on our own
behalf, He wants us to be happy children.

No one has yet convinced me that

a. Scripture regarding homosexuality applies to exclusive committed
relationships,
b. Exclusive, committed, loving relationships between consenting
adults of any kind harm anyone.

All NT references to H behavior seem to be in the context of
promiscuity. It seems to me that the better fight for saving
humanity would be for exclusive relationships, and against
promiscuity. That's a fight that is scriptural, and we can all
come together on, conservative and liberal alike.

Dave

Ezekiel

March 4th, 2004, 10:43 AM

Originally posted by Dave Miller

The moral core of sin is to harm one's self and / or others. God's
interest in our sinfullness or righteousness is on our own
behalf, He wants us to be happy children.

No one has yet convinced me that

a. Scripture regarding homosexuality applies to exclusive committed
relationships,
b. Exclusive, committed, loving relationships between consenting
adults of any kind harm anyone.

All NT references to H behavior seem to be in the context of
promiscuity. It seems to me that the better fight for saving
humanity would be for exclusive relationships, and against
promiscuity. That's a fight that is scriptural, and we can all
come together on, conservative and liberal alike.

Dave

Come on man!!

Can you show any of us in the bible or perhaps even in Jewish traditions Where homosexual marriage was approved of?

Gods word is clear regarding sex outside of marriage being sinfull.

Would even the Jews of today tolerate Homosexual marriage... Is there some historical basis for such a thing..?

Why is it that in the bible Marriage is ALWAYS between a man and a woman? Even when Jesus spoke of it, it was this way..

No one has yet convinced me that

a. Scripture regarding homosexuality applies to exclusive committed
relationships,
b. Exclusive, committed, loving relationships between consenting
adults of any kind harm anyone.

You wouldn't be convinced regardless of what anyone shows you Dave... You clearly beleive what want.

As far as the harm goes... I would think that would be obvious..

It seems to me that the better fight for saving
humanity would be for exclusive relationships, and against
promiscuity. That's a fight that is scriptural, and we can all
come together on, conservative and liberal alike.

The better fight for saving humanity? Jesus is our only hope Dave!

Asking people to adhere to the teachings of our Savour and the Most High God seem to me to be the best fight. Not shaping our doctrine around our fear of hurting peoples feelings..

The moral core of sin is to harm one's self and / or others. God's
interest in our sinfullness or righteousness is on our own
behalf, He wants us to be happy children.

Your right Dave, God does want us to be happy... This is way we have rules to follow... Rules make our lives easier and happier..

Some people seem to want to shpae those rules to justify their deviance.

Out of Curiousity Dave, are you gay?

Frank Ernest

March 5th, 2004, 07:14 AM

Here's how to make a seemingly cogent argument for justifying sin.

1. Take a settled issue and make it into a "gray" area. The modern euphemism for this is the word "controversial."
2. Take the newly-discovered gray area and engage in a "debate" using all the self-serving, hair-splitting legalisms one can find or dream up.
3. At some point, declare the settled issue (gray area) at best, unreliable, at worst, wrong.
4. Then come down firmly on the side of those who would justify the sin as a champion of the poor, oppressed, minority, civil rights, discriminated against, etc.

As a sample, we can find that while homosexual behavior is condemned in scripture (settled issue), homosexual "marriage" is not explicitly and specifically condemned. Now we have our gray area.

Now we engage in endless "debates" about "no one can tell you whom to love", gays oppressed and discriminated against (civil rights), What marriage is (another settled issue now gray area) etc.

And so, scripture becomes unreliable at best, wrong, at worst.

Emerge now the "champions": "I'm not gay, BUT ...

In 2 Timothy 2:15 Paul advises Timothy to study the Word and rightly divide it. He did not mean to divide it by zero, so one could come up with any conclusion that would fit one's personal prejudices.

Isa:5:21: Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

Dave Miller

March 5th, 2004, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Ezekiel

Come on man!!

Can you show any of us in the bible or perhaps even in Jewish traditions Where homosexual marriage was approved of?

Gods word is clear regarding sex outside of marriage being sinfull.

Would even the Jews of today tolerate Homosexual marriage... Is there some historical basis for such a thing..?

Why is it that in the bible Marriage is ALWAYS between a man and a woman? Even when Jesus spoke of it, it was this way..

Jewish tradition is very steeped in family and procreation.
The cleanness laws seemed to be set up to ensure that every
union between man and woman resulted in pregnancy.

Yes, if one morning every member of the human race woke up
gay, there' wouldn't be a human race for very long. But
that's not going to happen.

You wouldn't be convinced regardless of what anyone shows you Dave... You clearly beleive what want.

As far as the harm goes... I would think that would be obvious..

Not true, I'm pretty open minded, generally. Show me what's
obvious, I'm listening...

The better fight for saving humanity? Jesus is our only hope Dave!

Asking people to adhere to the teachings of our Savour and the Most High God seem to me to be the best fight. Not shaping our doctrine around our fear of hurting peoples feelings..

Jesus is our only hope, I agree. More than
feelings get hurt here, people are dieing of Aids, suicide,
and being beaten to death by good Christians who have their
best interests in mind.

And the demise of the modern family structure has nothing to
do with homosexuality. It has to do with lack of commitment
and fidelity and love. By not supporting those values for
everyone, we are continuing the destruction.

Your right Dave, God does want us to be happy... This is way we have rules to follow... Rules make our lives easier and happier..

Some people seem to want to shpae those rules to justify their deviance.

Out of Curiousity Dave, are you gay?

The right rules make it easier for everyone. Love, commitment,
fidelity, these are the Christians rules that work for everyone.

Gal 5:22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

Perhaps no one lives up to verse 24, but we can strive for that
through living in the Spirit, which bears these good fruits.

Use the damnation texts for discernment in your own life, bear
the good fruits as a witness to the rest of the world.

No, I'm not gay.

Dave

Chileice

March 5th, 2004, 10:49 AM

Ezekiel,
I would still like to get your thoughts about my post (63) regarding the distinction between Christian morality and human ethics. Can you see how separating the two might avoid lots of heated arguments. There would still be debate, and there would still be right and wrong, but each issue would not be life or death.

Dave Miller

March 5th, 2004, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Here's how to make a seemingly cogent argument for justifying sin.

1. Take a settled issue and make it into a "gray" area. The modern euphemism for this is the word "controversial."
2. Take the newly-discovered gray area and engage in a "debate" using all the self-serving, hair-splitting legalisms one can find or dream up.
3. At some point, declare the settled issue (gray area) at best, unreliable, at worst, wrong.
4. Then come down firmly on the side of those who would justify the sin as a champion of the poor, oppressed, minority, civil rights, discriminated against, etc.

As a sample, we can find that while homosexual behavior is condemned in scripture (settled issue), homosexual "marriage" is not explicitly and specifically condemned. Now we have our gray area.

Now we engage in endless "debates" about "no one can tell you whom to love", gays oppressed and discriminated against (civil rights), What marriage is (another settled issue now gray area) etc.

And so, scripture becomes unreliable at best, wrong, at worst.

Emerge now the "champions": "I'm not gay, BUT ...

In 2 Timothy 2:15 Paul advises Timothy to study the Word and rightly divide it. He did not mean to divide it by zero, so one could come up with any conclusion that would fit one's personal prejudices.

Isa:5:21: Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!

There are no gray areas when people are dieing, children are
raising themselves in homes riddled with addiction and abuse.

Restore the family. Support commitment and fidelity in
relationships. Maybe if we focus on restoring love, commitment,
and fidelity as core values in our society, fewer people in future
generations will find that hetero relationships are such a
disaster and feel forced to seek alternatives.

This H marriage debate shouldn't even be an issue among
Christians. The debate should be how to best save lives.
The man rescued by the Samaritan was left in the ditch by
"the good people" on principle. Any principle not backed by
real acts of love are empty pontifications.

djm

Ezekiel

March 5th, 2004, 10:58 AM

Hi Dave,

Thx for getting back to me :)

Just so we're clear..

I am not a gay basher...

Just trying to make the point that to engage in a homosexual life style is a sin. As is theft, adultery, murder etc etc.

Heck, I even beleive one can be born with a predisposition to homosexuality..

If we are "born" sinners due to the fall, and "all" of creation fell, then that suggests to me that it is possible. Just like it is possible to be born with any sin..

However, it is then up to us to try and fight our sinful nature..

I think the bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin Dave. Unless you know of some scriptures that say otherwise.

That being said, are we not to teach ppl out of our love for the Most High that this homosexual lifestyle can not only kill them physically, but spiritually as well. Just like we should tell the theif, or the adulterer the same thing.

Your arguement that we should tolerate sin because ppl who engage in that sin will come to physical harm or die of aids if we don't promote loving manogamus [spelling?] relationships amonst homosexuals seems to me to be confusing at best..

This type of argument is why abortion is legal. Do you support this too?

Basic question for you Dave; Do you or don't you beleive it is a sin to be engaged in a homosexual relationship?

Ezekiel

March 5th, 2004, 11:27 AM

Originally posted by Chileice

Ezekiel,
I would still like to get your thoughts about my post (63) regarding the distinction between Christian morality and human ethics. Can you see how separating the two might avoid lots of heated arguments. There would still be debate, and there would still be right and wrong, but each issue would not be life or death.

Sorry, didn't realise you were looking for a response my friend.

I think the distinction between human ethics and God's law is what has gotten us in the position we're in now..

Our desire to be loving and compationate is what drives human ethics, however God's love is what drives God's law.

I fully understand (I think) where Dave is trying to come from), but should human ethics suppersied [spelling?]God's law?

To me the bible is very black & white.

sin is sin..

It seems to me that we have a responseability to tell people God's truth..

Dave Miller

March 5th, 2004, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by Ezekiel

Hi Dave,

Thx for getting back to me :)

Just so we're clear..

I am not a gay basher...

Just trying to make the point that to engage in a homosexual life style is a sin. As is theft, adultery, murder etc etc.

Heck, I even beleive one can be born with a predisposition to homosexuality..

If we are "born" sinners due to the fall, and "all" of creation fell, then that suggests to me that it is possible. Just like it is possible to be born with any sin..

However, it is then up to us to try and fight our sinful nature..

I think the bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin Dave. Unless you know of some scriptures that say otherwise.

That being said, are we not to teach ppl out of our love for the Most High that this homosexual lifestyle can not only kill them physically, but spiritually as well. Just like we should tell the theif, or the adulterer the same thing.

Your arguement that we should tolerate sin because ppl who engage in that sin will come to physical harm or die of aids if we don't promote loving manogamus [spelling?] relationships amonst homosexuals seems to me to be confusing at best..

This type of argument is why abortion is legal. Do you support this too?

Basic question for you Dave; Do you or don't you beleive it is a sin to be engaged in a homosexual relationship?

Have you ever experienced romantic love, not necessarily
physical, with a woman for a first time? If not, I can tell you
its about the most joyful thing a human being can experience,
loving intimate contact with another human being. The biggest
joy in the relationship is realizing that the other human
being freely accepts and returns that love to you. And that
joy actually grows through the bonds of commitment and
fidelity, which for the luckiest few of us can turn into a
lifetime commitment.

I do not have the moral wisdom or fortitude to deny another
human being that experience, that joy. My experience and
knowledge of God as a Being of Grace, who love's all
humanity, even us sinners, infinitely, precludes my even
attempting to represent God's Will as one which would
deny another human being this joy. God wants us to
experience such joys.

True, scripture can easily be read to be saying just that, that
certain people with homosexual dispositions are not allowed
to experience that particular joy in life. But that interpretation
goes against my own fundamental understanding and
experience of who God is, witnessed through Jesus Christ.

So what do we do with that? We either drop Christianity
altogether, which the world and the USA are coming to, or
we try to seek a deeper understanding of Scripture that
makes some sense in a world filled with broken families and
broken lives. An understanding that preserves the both
the admonition against sin and the Grace of God as well,
which are both within scripture.

I've done that. I believe there is a significant connection in
Paul's writings regarding homosexual behavior to tie the
behavior he speaks of to promiscuity, Roman orgies and such.

I'm not going to give up my relationship with Christ over this
issue. I cling to it. Caring about the well being of others
requires us to at least try to see the world through their
eyes, and do what we can to bring about healing where
possible.

If homosexuality is sin, and I'm not denying that it can be
considered as such, then Christians must look at it with the
understanding that for some at least, its like an incurable
disease. For those that argue its curable, I would
argue that its possible that any cure will kill the patient in the
process, through great despair leading to suicide. What do we
do with incurable diseases? Do we deny people comfort? No!
We help them to be as comfortable as possible without
hurting others.

Ever see personal adds where Herpes patients seek out others
with the same affliction? Not to endorse sexual contact, but to
provide the possibility of a long term loving relationship which can
include sexual contact without bringing more harm. Maybe
that's the approach Christians who are totally revolted
by the whole idea can take with this.

Its a tough question, one I've been struggling with for as long
as I've been a Christian, as as such have been called to love and
care for the well being of others.

Dave

Ezekiel

March 5th, 2004, 12:44 PM

Have you ever experienced romantic love, not necessarily
physical, with a woman for a first time? If not, I can tell you
its about the most joyful thing a human being can experience,
loving intimate contact with another human being. The biggest
joy in the relationship is realizing that the other human
being freely accepts and returns that love to you. And that
joy actually grows through the bonds of commitment and
fidelity, which for the luckiest few of us can turn into a
lifetime commitment.

Hi Dave, I am married with 5 children. So, yes I continue to experience this love daily..

I do not have the moral wisdom or fortitude to deny another
human being that experience, that joy. My experience and
knowledge of God as a Being of Grace, who love's all
humanity, even us sinners, infinitely, precludes my even
attempting to represent God's Will as one which would
deny another human being this joy. God wants us to
experience such joys.

Of coarse we lack the wisdom Dave. This is precisly why The Father provided us with the answer to such things in the Holy Book.

True, scripture can easily be read to be saying just that, that
certain people with homosexual dispositions are not allowed
to experience that particular joy in life. But that interpretation
goes against my own fundamental understanding and
experience of who God is, witnessed through Jesus Christ.

So what do we do with that? We either drop Christianity
altogether, which the world and the USA are coming to, or
we try to seek a deeper understanding of Scripture that
makes some sense in a world filled with broken families and
broken lives. An understanding that preserves the both
the admonition against sin and the Grace of God as well,
which are both within scripture.

That "Joy" that you are speaking of Dave with regards to homosexuals is based on cunfused emotions..

It may well go against your own understanding of God, but that doesn't negate the fact that The Most High considers it a sin. Those that refuse to acknowledge the sin in thier lives can hardly repent of such sin can they.

Why would their be a need to drop Christianity because some ppl can't deal with the expectations? We all have our cross to bare.

I've done that. I believe there is a significant connection in
Paul's writings regarding homosexual behavior to tie the
behavior he speaks of to promiscuity, Roman orgies and such.

Oh really! So you can find reference in the bible or Jewish tradition for God ordained Gay marriage?

Perhaps you would be so kind as to post these scritpures..

If homosexuality is sin, and I'm not denying that it can be
considered as such, then Christians must look at it with the
understanding that for some at least, its like an incurable
disease. For those that argue its curable, I would
argue that its possible that any cure will kill the patient in the
process, through great despair leading to suicide. What do we
do with incurable diseases? Do we deny people comfort? No!
We help them to be as comfortable as possible without
hurting others.

OK, so we are agreed in saying that Homosexuality is a sin..

All sin is incurable. It is only with the help of Christ that we can overcome this sin.. Does it mean that we no longer sin, obviously not. But clearly we need to acknowledge the sin in our lives..

And yes we do deny ppl the 'Comfort" of living a sinfull life if we truely love love them and want to live eternally with the Most High.

As far as hurting other, I think your missing the point here. They are hurting themselves... Not just in this life, which is here and gone in the blink of an eye.. But in the life to come, which is far more important..

Its a tough question, one I've been struggling with for as long
as I've been a Christian, as as such have been called to love and
care for the well being of others.

I am happy to hear this Dave. However, we need to prepare them for the life to come..

Dave Miller

March 5th, 2004, 02:08 PM

"I am happy to hear this Dave. However, we need to prepare them for the life to come.. "

The "Preparation" Christianity gives people now is a life of
misery and despair. I think we can do better than that.

Dave

Dave Miller

March 5th, 2004, 02:11 PM

"OK, so we are agreed in saying that Homosexuality is a sin.."

Not quite. Can we agree that promiscuity of any orientation
is sinful? All I'm saying is if we can back off to common ground,
we may be able to actually do some good in this world.

Dave

Ezekiel

March 5th, 2004, 02:28 PM

Ok, time for me to bow out for a bit here. Clearly this is only going to get even more circular then it is now..

Shalom

Frank Ernest

March 6th, 2004, 06:00 AM

From Dave:

There are no gray areas when people are dieing, children are
raising themselves in homes riddled with addiction and abuse.

Restore the family. Support commitment and fidelity in
relationships. Maybe if we focus on restoring love, commitment,
and fidelity as core values in our society, fewer people in future
generations will find that hetero relationships are such a
disaster and feel forced to seek alternatives.

This H marriage debate shouldn't even be an issue among
Christians. The debate should be how to best save lives.
The man rescued by the Samaritan was left in the ditch by
"the good people" on principle. Any principle not backed by
real acts of love are empty pontifications.

Frrom FrankiE:

Dave, get real. People die from various causes, conditions and accidents every day. If that is the focus of your thinking, then it's clear why you have no faith and are filled with hopelessness and despair. Are you concerned only with one particular group of people who are dying?

Restore the family? Exactly how, Dave? What are your proposals for doing so? What you are saying, perhaps without realizing it, is that homosexual behavior results from us bad heteros who have screwed up relationships. Always nice to blame someone else. There has always been homosexual behavior and I seriously doubt that any hard-core homosexual is going to reflect on the error of his ways if he should encounter a wonderful hetero relationship. Seems to me from the homosexual propaganda that would be the last item on the agenda, if it's there at all.

Even the suggestion that homosexual behavior is a result of bad heterosexual behavior and that homosexuals are "forced" to seek an alternative is laughable to me. Let's do some logic: It's as if one justified bank robbery because the guy next door maxed out a credit card.

Good news, though! I agree with you that "H" marriage shouldn't be a debatable item among Christians. First of all, there is no such thing as an "H" marriage. God has defined what marriage is. Settled issue. Secondly, God has defined homosexual behavior as an abomination. Settled issue. Those who would argue differently are outside the Word of God and cannot truthfully be called Christian. Settled issue.

Galatians 5:22-26, Romans 13:12-14

Leo Volont

March 6th, 2004, 06:22 AM

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

God has defined homosexual behavior as an abomination.

You have a Murderer who hates queers -- is that what you mean when you say that "God" has defined homosexual behavior as evil. Paul was not God. paul was a man who was published in the Bible because he won a Civil War and had all the Real Apostles killed in a power grab. That would make him more Satan than God in my Book.

As for the Judaic prohibitions concerning homosexuality. A tribal law of a most bigoted people.

Are we Christians? Remember that Christ was often blamed by the Pharisaical Jews of partying with the Tax Collectors and Prostitutes. Now, just think about it for a second. How could there NOT have been homosexuals at these parties. Yet in the 4 Gospels Christ never badmouths the gays even once.

Who badmouths the gays? Paul, the former Pharisee who also complained about the prostitutes. Paul never changed his story. Paul hated everybody while Jesus was alive, and then hated everybody after Jesus was dead. Christianity should get rid of the hate and get rid of paul.

Ezekiel

March 6th, 2004, 02:40 PM

Originally posted by Leo Volont

You have a Murderer who hates queers -- is that what you mean when you say that "God" has defined homosexual behavior as evil. Paul was not God. paul was a man who was published in the Bible because he won a Civil War and had all the Real Apostles killed in a power grab. That would make him more Satan than God in my Book.

As for the Judaic prohibitions concerning homosexuality. A tribal law of a most bigoted people.

Are we Christians? Remember that Christ was often blamed by the Pharisaical Jews of partying with the Tax Collectors and Prostitutes. Now, just think about it for a second. How could there NOT have been homosexuals at these parties. Yet in the 4 Gospels Christ never badmouths the gays even once.

Who badmouths the gays? Paul, the former Pharisee who also complained about the prostitutes. Paul never changed his story. Paul hated everybody while Jesus was alive, and then hated everybody after Jesus was dead. Christianity should get rid of the hate and get rid of paul.

Your Paul hating Tripe is so old it's dusty Leo.

What Christianity doesn't need is advice from a heretic like you!

Frank Ernest

March 7th, 2004, 04:57 AM

Nice try, St. Leo!

The nuanced "Jesus never specifically condemned homosexual behavior." Implication: He must have been ok with it. Seems that Matthew 5:18 doesn't agree with you.

Plus the added bonus of the usual vicious accusations against the character of Paul (the truth of which you have never been able to prove, by the way).

Haven't heard the "A tribal law of a most bigoted people" canard for some time. Refreshing. Seems that Genesis 19:1-29 disputes what you're saying.

Homosexual behavior is condemned In Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Isaiah as well as Romans, 1 Corinthians, 1 Timothy and Jude.

Yes, Leo, some of us are Christians. Some of us would like to be (working on it), and some of us claim to be and are not. Then there are those who can't handle the truth as in Mark 4:9, Leo.

Chew on this one, St. Leo. Jesus never specifically condemned nuclear war either.

Leo Volont

March 7th, 2004, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Nice try, St. Leo!

The nuanced "Jesus never specifically condemned homosexual behavior." Implication: He must have been ok with it. Seems that Matthew 5:18 doesn't agree with you.

Plus the added bonus of the usual vicious accusations against the character of Paul (the truth of which you have never been able to prove, by the way).

Haven't heard the "A tribal law of a most bigoted people" canard for some time. Refreshing. Seems that Genesis 19:1-29 disputes what you're saying.

Homosexual behavior is condemned In Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Isaiah as well as Romans, 1 Corinthians, 1 Timothy and Jude.

Yes, Leo, some of us are Christians. Some of us would like to be (working on it), and some of us claim to be and are not. Then there are those who can't handle the truth as in Mark 4:9, Leo.

Chew on this one, St. Leo. Jesus never specifically condemned nuclear war either.

Have you read Leviticus and Deuteronomy? Look at some of those laws. Its a code to keep order among the basest barbarians. Check out the Law about Bar Fighting -- if a man's wife interfers in a brawl and grabs the other guy by the balls then they are to immediately cut her arms off "showing no mercy". How about the laws governing rape and pillage when you invade another country? Do you honestly think that God allows for the Large Sins while regulating only the details of secondary sins. Obviously God had nothing to do with the Mosaic Law. It is simply obvious on first Enlightened Evaluation that either Man has evolved way beyond those abominable laws or God has.

Oh, and the next time someone tells me that I'm full of hate, I'll have to remind them that I'm not even in the same league as other people I know.

Frank Ernest

March 7th, 2004, 05:51 AM

"Enlightened Evaluation?" That's a new one! Is that the latest euphemistic terminology for your pick-and-choose theology?

Oh, yes, I have read Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Nice of you to ask. :)

Large sins and secondary sins? Where did that Pharisaic legalism come from? I know about laws, statutes and ordinances. Never heard of large sins and secondary ones. However, it seems that God was instructing His chosen people about civilization so they could do well in the Promised Land. I suspect you don't like that part, so it goes away, just for Leo.

I really don't believe that God asked, either largely or secondarily, for your opinion on what He does. Nor do I believe that man has evolved beyond or God has evolved beyond anything. Seems to me that you're trying to manufacture your own salvation here. :confused:

Isa:55:8: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Leo Volont

March 7th, 2004, 05:55 AM

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

"Enlightened Evaluation?" That's a new one! Is that the latest euphemistic terminology for your pick-and-choose theology?

Oh, yes, I have read Leviticus and Deuteronomy. Nice of you to ask. :)

Large sins and secondary sins? Where did that Pharisaic legalism come from? I know about laws, statutes and ordinances. Never heard of large sins and secondary ones. However, it seems that God was instructing His chosen people about civilization so they could do well in the Promised Land. I suspect you don't like that part, so it goes away, just for Leo.

I really don't believe that God asked, either largely or secondarily, for your opinion on what He does. Nor do I believe that man has evolved beyond or God has evolved beyond anything. Seems to me that your trying to manufacture your own salvation here.

Isa:55:8: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

Do you really need all that reasoning to be a Gay Basher?

Frank Ernest

March 7th, 2004, 06:12 AM

Leo, Leo, Leo
(Insert hearty belly-laugh here)

Gay-bashing? Is that your stunning and overwhelming accusation and argument? Is that the crushing blow that will make me shamefully whimper for Absolution and Forgiveness from St. Leo?

OR, is it that you have been reduced to the rubble of simple ad hominem attack since you cannot prove one single point you have made?

Thanks for a good laugh, Leo.

BillyBob

March 7th, 2004, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by GreenPartyVoter

NOT looking for a debate from folks who believe differently, just want a headcount of those who consider themselves progressives.

Thanks! :D

'Progressive' is just a cryptic way of saying 'Commie', at least politically. Are you a commie, GPV?

Ezekiel

March 8th, 2004, 10:35 AM

Was that your attempt at being unbias?

I think it's a pretty basic question...

Do you or don't you beleive it is a sin to live a homosexual/Trans lifestyle?

If not, why not?

Ross

March 8th, 2004, 11:35 AM

BillyBob,

"'Progressive' is just a cryptic way of saying 'Commie', at least politically. Are you a commie, GPV?"

I thought you were going to behave yourself.

Ross

BillyBob

March 8th, 2004, 06:45 PM

I'm not misbehavin'. [reminds me of a song :singer:]

I didn't accuse 'RedPartyVoter' of being a commie, I simply asked if she was. I already know the answer, of course, but maybe she doesn't.

Dave Miller

March 9th, 2004, 06:21 PM

I've heard it said in TOL that the sign of a true Christian is to be
persecuted.

If you want to experience Christian persecution in this modern
age, try standing up and saying that war is wrong.

Try standing up and saying that you love Iraq, and you love Saddam
Hussein, and that you love Osama Bin Laden.

Try standing up and saying that we should forgive terrorists,
comfort our enemies, do good to those that would do us harm.

That's the controversial message Christ had for the modern world.
Its easy to form a bloody brutal crowd and curse gay people to
eternal damnation. Easy to curse confused, unwed mothers to
eternal damnation too.

Not so easy to stand up to the world when you really are the lone
voice crying in the wilderness...

Dave

Ezekiel

March 9th, 2004, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by Dave Miller

I've heard it said in TOL that the sign of a true Christian is to be
persecuted.

If you want to experience Christian persecution in this modern
age, try standing up and saying that war is wrong.

Try standing up and saying that you love Iraq, and you love Saddam
Hussein, and that you love Osama Bin Laden.

Try standing up and saying that we should forgive terrorists,
comfort our enemies, do good to those that would do us harm.

That's the controversial message Christ had for the modern world.
Its easy to form a bloody brutal crowd and curse gay people to
eternal damnation. Easy to curse confused, unwed mothers to
eternal damnation too.

Not so easy to stand up to the world when you really are the lone
voice crying in the wilderness...

Dave

Dave, I for one am not arguing with anything you've just said :)

I am suggesting that part of loving someone is the ability to share the truth with them even if that truth is offensive to them..

Shalom

curious

March 10th, 2004, 01:33 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

I think "liberal christians should be gathered up and placed on a nuclear testing site

Are you a Christian?
Wait, I mean, do you consider yourself a follower of Christ, and if so, how do you explain a comment like that?
I really hope that was some sort of sick joke. May God have mercy on your soul.

Cyrus of Persia

March 10th, 2004, 03:10 AM

Originally posted by curious

Are you a Christian?
Wait, I mean, do you consider yourself a follower of Christ, and if so, how do you explain a comment like that?
I really hope that was some sort of sick joke. May God have mercy on your soul.

Note the title what is given to Sozo - Intolerant - and you get the clue why he says such stupid things. I was puzzled at first too, because i dont recall any who claims to be christian to say something like that, but then i looked to the title...

Asking my opinion - Sozo is not a christian if we define christian as follower of Christ :(

Frank Ernest

March 10th, 2004, 06:21 AM

Joshua 8:1-8 God orders Joshua and the Israelites to war.

If anyone wishes to say as a sweeping generality that "war is wrong", then one must be prepared to say that God is wrong.

Or, one must be prepared to say that God didn't do what scripture says he most emphatically did. One might argue that Joshua was lying about what God said.

Or, one might argue that it wasn't God, but Satan who ordered the war and Joshua was deceived.

Or, one might surmise that God erred when he commited Joshua and Israel to war.

Does scripture recount faithfully to us the Word of God or is there wiggle-room for "noble causes?"

Cyrus of Persia

March 10th, 2004, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Joshua 8:1-8 God orders Joshua and the Israelites to war.

If anyone wishes to say as a sweeping generality that "war is wrong", then one must be prepared to say that God is wrong.

Or, one must be prepared to say that God didn't do what scripture says he most emphatically did. One might argue that Joshua was lying about what God said.

Or, one might argue that it wasn't God, but Satan who ordered the war and Joshua was deceived.

Or, one might surmise that God erred when he commited Joshua and Israel to war.

Does scripture recount faithfully to us the Word of God or is there wiggle-room for "noble causes?"

There can be wars that are justified. But my question to you is:

How do you solve the "problem" that in one side Jesus claims: "Who has seen me has seen my Father", and in other side we see God who is war-monger and very human-like in His emotions in certain pages of OT?

Frank Ernest

March 12th, 2004, 06:43 AM

Dear Cyrus of Persia,

Sorry it took me a while to get back on this one. The answer is:

Genesis 1:26-27
Ge:1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge:1:27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Isaiah 55:8-11
Isa:55:8: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa:55:9: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa:55:10: For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa:55:11: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 38 1-41 and Job 39 1-30 are too lengthy to post, but I'm sure you have a Bible.

Frank Ernest

March 12th, 2004, 08:28 AM

Really am tired of Jesus being modernistically protrayed as some sort of wandering flower-child and God in the Old Testament being portrayed as some kind of ill-willed tyrant.

Exodus 20:5
Deuteronomy 6:15
Matthew 21:12 and 23:35
John 3:16-21
John 11:33
Revelations 2:27, 12:5, and 18:15

Jesus said that those who had seen Him have seen the Father.

Cyrus of Persia

March 12th, 2004, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Dear Cyrus of Persia,

Sorry it took me a while to get back on this one. The answer is:

Genesis 1:26-27
Ge:1:26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Ge:1:27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Isaiah 55:8-11
Isa:55:8: For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa:55:9: For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isa:55:10: For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa:55:11: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Job 38 1-41 and Job 39 1-30 are too lengthy to post, but I'm sure you have a Bible.

Ok, lets start with a Genesis. So you are saying that God invented war, hatred, scisophrenical states of mind, jelousy, etc and put them into the human being when creating him into His image?

Reading OT and NT i'm pretty sure that human created the god into his own image to justify the evil what was done in the pages of OT.

Dave Miller

March 13th, 2004, 05:17 AM

Peace and love, dude. But no drugs, hopefully we've all learned
better than that.

Dave

Dave Miller

March 13th, 2004, 05:20 AM

I think the point of the Joshua wars was that they were God's wars.
Since Christ, and knowing Christ's Words and example, there's no
justification for calling any war holy, or jihad, or God's war.

I read somewhere that Nazi SS daggars had inscribed "Gott mit Uns"
God with us... Everyone in war thinks God is on there side, when
God is weeping over the death and destruction, and working within
the lives of individuals to bring peace.

Dave

Frank Ernest

March 13th, 2004, 06:30 AM

From Cyrus of Persia:

"Ok, lets start with a Genesis. So you are saying that God invented war, hatred, scisophrenical states of mind, jelousy, etc and put them into the human being when creating him into His image?"

FrankiE:

Didn't say any of that, nor did I imply it. Merely stated what's in God's Word. I think 20th-century psychoanalysis and modern sociology would be inappropriately applied here as they are irrelevant.

From Cyrus of Persia:

"Reading OT and NT i'm pretty sure that human created the god into his own image to justify the evil what was done in the pages of OT."

FrankiE:

If you really conclude that, then there is nothing to discuss. If you believe that man created God, then, in my view, you have it exactly backwards and we are definitely not on the same page.

Logically, if man created God to justify his own actions, then good and evil are reducible to differing opinions of equal merit. Darwinianly put, the stronger victorious are good; the weaker defeated are evil.

Leo Volont

March 13th, 2004, 07:14 AM

Originally posted by Dave Miller

I think the point of the Joshua wars was that they were God's wars.

Dave

Dave,

Think about it. Is the Demiurge that would order the slaughter of every man, woman and child of Canaan the same God the Father who is one with Christ? Let's look at the complexities. We know that Moses did not lead the Invasion and slaughter of the innocent People of Canaan. We are given the excuse that Moses was told to bide in the desert for 40 years. That is what we are told by a Race of Lawyers who we know will say anything to win their case. Every story they tell is 'based on the truth' but is never fully there, is it? What we know is that after Moses died while leading a Nomadic People where they couldn't hurt anybody, Joshua turned them into a murderous horde of barbarians that swept down on a Civilized People and slaughtered them. And then they wrote the History so that they could make themselves the Good Guys.