Who's Replying?

[Balder]

People in many religions have the experience of having their prayers answered, and of feeling the "hand of providence" in their affairs.

What's happening here? Who is answering the prayers of Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists?

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Balder

People in many religions have the experience of having their prayers answered, and of feeling the "hand of providence" in their affairs.

What's happening here? Who is answering the prayers of Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists? Haven't you heard? The Devil™ answers those prayers.

Lulls 'em into a false sense of security and all that...
:chuckle:

[smaller]

Yeah, just before HE pulls the TRAPDOOR on 'em.

The real "devils" captives are the supposed "christians."

They would rather CONDEMN their fellow MANkind to BURN FOREVER IN FIRE than believe THIS:

1 John 4:

7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

or this

16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

THEY would rather BURN others instead...all the while proclaiming IT IS GOD that does this or THEY do it to themselves....etc.etc.etc.

AND most of them will have the GALL to say I WOULD NOT WISH THIS TO HAPPEN, but GOD SAYS...so who am I to say????

not SEEING that their own hearts ARE BIGGER than their own "gods" when they say that....

It really is a sickness.

They have been captured by the very entity they are warning others about.....

[the Sibbie]

Originally posted by smaller

Yeah, just before HE pulls the TRAPDOOR on 'em.

The real "devils" captives are the supposed "christians."

They would rather CONDEMN their fellow MANkind to BURN FOREVER IN FIRE than believe THIS:

1 John 4:

7
Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

or this

16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

THEY would rather BURN others instead...all the while proclaiming IT IS GOD that does this or THEY do it to themselves....etc.etc.etc.

AND most of them will have the GALL to say I WOULD NOT WISH THIS TO HAPPEN, but GOD SAYS...so who am I to say????

not SEEING that their own hearts ARE BIGGER than their own "gods" when they say that....

It really is a sickness.

They have been captured by the very entity they are warning others about..... So the moral of this story is that we should stop warning others.

[Balder]

Hey, Smaller,

I'm enjoy!ing your Biblical universalism. Like others, I'm not convinced it's really in the big book, but I'd sure like it to be!

How do you respond, Biblically, to the apparent exclusivity of texts such as John 14:6, which people often use to back up their claim that all non-Christians are (sadly) doomed?

Best wishes,
Balder

[Duder]

Balder -

How about this? Simply supply some punctuation what was not available to John's Greek:

"I" am the way, the truth and the Life. No one comes to the father but by "me".

The puctuation signifies that "I" and "me" are more general than supposed. Jesus may not have meant "myself personally" (ie, Jesus of Nazereth exclusively), but rather "the self" in general. In other words, the way to the father is through the deepest self of the seeker.

This would be bolstered by Jesus teaching that we are in Him and He is in us - just as He is in the father.

We also find something similar in the Gospel of Thomas:

If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you . . .

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him.

Those who have found themselves, of them the world is not worthy.

[Turbo]

Oh, brother! :rolleyes:

[Balder]

Duder,

I see it that way too. Jesus claimed identity with the I AM, and of course mystical teachings around the world point to the "I AM" (the ground of awareness or consciousness) as the reflection of or the door to ultimate reality...

But I haven't found many Christians willing to accept that.

Peace,
Balder

[smaller]

Peace Balder

I can assure you that there are a great number of "christian" universalists....not the "unitarian" brand, but those who do adhere to the text...every WORD of it, to extract the position that God is INDEED the Saviour of ALL people

whether they like it or not....

Obviously this does not sit well with the DAMN YOUR NEIGHBOR TO ETERNAL FIRE crowd, but NONE can stand against THIS TRUTH and do it with GOD'S WORD.

The Jews did not believe in ETERNAL TORMENT. Funny how quickly CHRISTIANS fell into it....????

Regarding John 14, 6- we KNOW from the text that if a person DOES NOT BELIEVE, that A. Jesus or The Father JUDGES THEM NOT!

and

we know that such people are BLINDED by the "god" of this world, satan-and his messengers. An ANTI-spiritual working that is in ALL PEOPLE but is not the SAME AS them (as Children of God.)

When anyone DIES they are RELEASED FROM sin (Romans 6:7)

As being FREED FROM IT they are obviously able to SEE MUCH BETTER eh?

The DENIAL that the Eiffel Tower is there does not make it disappear eh?

If The Truth is TRUTH there is NO DENIAL of it.

There are other examples as well.

One of my favorites is that ALL OF ISRAEL shall be saved...EVEN THE ENEMIES OF THE GOSPEL....found in Romans 11:26-32

Others are 1 Tim. 4:10, 1. Cor. 15:28, etc. etc.

There are literally HUNDREDS of "proof texts" for the position.

Christianity has been largely hoodwinked on the matter....It is not as "profitable" to run a "business" without the threat of "eternal damnation" hanging over OTHERS heads...

Then there is also the factor that THE WORD is intended to show US what is IN OUR OWN SELVES...

So these SO CALLED "believers" who are DAMNING THEIR NEIGHBORS TO BURN IN FIRE FOREVER are merely REFLECTING what is IN THEM...

scary huh?

enjoy!

smaller

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by Balder

People in many religions have the experience of having their prayers answered, and of feeling the "hand of providence" in their affairs.

What's happening here? Who is answering the prayers of Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists?

God.

Duder, btw, thanks for quoting Thomas. That's wonderful text, and book overally :thumb:

[Duder]

Originally posted by Turbo:
Oh, brother!

Do I detect the faintest note of skepticism?

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by Balder
(snip)
How do you respond, Biblically, to the apparent exclusivity of texts such as John 14:6, which people often use to back up their claim that all non-Christians are (sadly) doomed?
Best wishes,
Balder



Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.


Heh.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

Jhn 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Heh.

John 5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son

[Balder]

That's more like it, God_Is_Truth!

I was beginning to think I'd been imagining things...

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Balder

That's more like it, God_Is_Truth!

I was beginning to think I'd been imagining things...

JosephofMessiah will do that to you.

always take what he says with a BIG grain of salt.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

John 5:22
Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son


The "not judge" comes last...

Heh.

Also, you can't believe anything God_Is_Truth says, for he/she worships the mangod of Rome's myth.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

The "not judge" comes last...

Heh.


John 5:30
By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Matthew 12:37
For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

Matthew 23:33
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Matthew 5:29
If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.

Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Matthew 18:9
And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.

hell is a very real place where many people will go. i am not glad they are going there in the least, but it is where they choose to go by not choosing to believe in the Son whom God has sent.

by the way, JosephofMessiah, have you been able to try out the bible search engines i suggested to you?


Also, you can't believe anything God_Is_Truth says, for he/she worships the mangod of Rome's myth.

:D talk about passing the buck.

by the way, instead of using the term "mangod of Rome's myth" i would prefer you call him "Jesus". thanks.

[smaller]

The fires are stated CLEARLY to be meant for THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS only.

They happen to "occupy" the SAME PLACE as people, that is THE FLESH, so it is understandable that MOST "christians" will not SEE THEM so they will JUDGE FALSELY.

There is not a SINGLE NAMED PERSON in the entire text, Old and New that is SAID TO BE GOING TO THE FLAMES.

Yet this is the ONLY DOCTRINE (the eternal torture of PEOPLE) that the "mother church" has in common with her "children"

This speaks loud enough for me.

They are the very ones who have found THE BROAD PATH THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION AND THEY ARE MANY eh?

They represent that rather than SAVE THE WORLD, God saves only a pathetic handful and TORTURES THE BALANCE OF MANKIND forever in FIRE.

It is a SICKNESS that is IN THEM and PROOF of the existence of THE DEVIL that speaks THROUGH THEM ALL.

That is precisely why THE DEVIL will suffer the consequences and NOT mankind.

In classic fashion though the devil has TURNED THE TABLES and these DUPES who DO NOT LOVE THEIR NEIGHBORS are his allies.

[BChristianK]

Duder said:


Balder -

How about this? Simply supply some punctuation what was not available to John's Greek:

"I" am the way, the truth and the Life. No one comes to the father but by "me".

The punctuation signifies that "I" and "me" are more general than supposed. Jesus may not have meant "myself personally" (ie, Jesus of Nazereth exclusively), but rather "the self" in general. In other words, the way to the father is through the deepest self of the seeker.

This would that we are in Him and He is in us - just as He is in the father.

Accept, regardless of the punctuation, the concept that the word ego is used as a personal pronoun exclusively throughout the N.T. I can’t think of one instance where it doesn’t mean “I” in the sense that it refers to the person speaking or doing the action of the verb.

The only way I can think of for the Greek to have carried this meaning is if it said, “no one comes to the Father if not through themselves (eautois).

In other words, John would have had to use a different word to carry the meaning you suggest...

Now you said:




We also find something similar in the Gospel of Thomas:
:
If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you . . .

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

Whoever drinks from my mouth will become like me; I myself shall become that person, and the hidden things will be revealed to him.

Those who have found themselves, of them the world is not worthy.

The Oxyrhynchus Greek Fragment of this saying, Saying 3, helps me to prove my point.
The fragment uses the word eautou when it says, “Those who have found themselves.”
The word Ego, isn’t used here to describe the “inner self.”

Secondly, the Gospel of Thomas is quite obscure and open to almost any interpretation one can bring to it. That is why it makes more sense, at least to your’s truly, to let the Johanine Text stand alone apart from a re-interpretation from the Gospel of Thomas.

Grace and Peace

[Melody]

Originally posted by smaller

The fires are stated CLEARLY to be meant for THE DEVIL AND HIS MESSENGERS only.

They happen to "occupy" the SAME PLACE as people, that is THE FLESH, so it is understandable that MOST "christians" will not SEE THEM so they will JUDGE FALSELY.

There is not a SINGLE NAMED PERSON in the entire text, Old and New that is SAID TO BE GOING TO THE FLAMES.

Yet this is the ONLY DOCTRINE (the eternal torture of PEOPLE) that the "mother church" has in common with her "children"

This speaks loud enough for me.

They are the very ones who have found THE BROAD PATH THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION AND THEY ARE MANY eh?

They represent that rather than SAVE THE WORLD, God saves only a pathetic handful and TORTURES THE BALANCE OF MANKIND forever in FIRE.

It is a SICKNESS that is IN THEM and PROOF of the existence of THE DEVIL that speaks THROUGH THEM ALL.

That is precisely why THE DEVIL will suffer the consequences and NOT mankind.

In classic fashion though the devil has TURNED THE TABLES and these DUPES who DO NOT LOVE THEIR NEIGHBORS are his allies.

the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

[jaguar_prince]

It's the power of thought itself. St John of Kronstadt, a Russian Orthodox saint who lived in the 19th century, said that when we are in the state of deep prayer we should be very careful not to let any thought cross our minds, otherwise God will make it materialize.

This naive view of an undiscerning God indirectly shows that what we have in the response to our prayers is an impersonal law. Jesus, I think, alluded to this by his extensive use of a passive form to describe God's response to our prayers:"...and it will be granted to you...".

See also the episode of the woman who had been losing her blood for 12 years. Jesus' power ofleaves his body mechanically as it were in response to the woman's faith.

[Mark in Toronto]

Surely God hears the sincere soul upreach of a person from any religion, and his response in unerringly perfect in the spirt. As reliable as law as I think Jaguar Prince said.

Still, Jesus *is* the way the truth and the life, whether one happens to believe that or not. One does not have to believe in DNA to have one's body work according to plan.

Everyone on the other side eventually becomes conscious that Jesus is indeed the representation of God to the universe and the one through whom all things (in our neck of the woods ) were made. You'll encounter Him personally waaay before you do the Father.

Bets? :)

Mark