Are Ouija Boards Evil?

[Prinny]

Is it evil to play with a Ouija board?

My friend and I were playing with one a few weeks ago and some really odd stuff happened. When I told my grandmother's pastor who was visiting about it he got really upset and said it is demonic. My parents don't really have an opinion, so I'm wondering what people here think. :confused:

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by Prinny

Is it evil to play with a Ouija board?

My friend and I were playing with one a few weeks ago and some really odd stuff happened. When I told my grandmother's pastor who was visiting about it he got really upset and said it is demonic. My parents don't really have an opinion, so I'm wondering what people here think. :confused:

So basically you called out the spirits, or wanted to communicate with them? And weird stuff happened?

I think what the pastor said was right. If you dont know how to handle those things (i even dare to say that we are not supposed to "play" with such things ), then it will be safer for you NEVER to try it again.

[Lucky]

I don't know much about ouiji boards, but they sure sound demonic.

[Greywolf]

This site may be helpful:

http://www.museumoftalkingboards.com/

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Prinny

Is it evil to play with a Ouija board?

My friend and I were playing with one a few weeks ago and some really odd stuff happened. When I told my grandmother's pastor who was visiting about it he got really upset and said it is demonic. My parents don't really have an opinion, so I'm wondering what people here think. :confused: A Ouija board is an inanimate object possessing no supernatural properties.

The conclusion to be drawn from this should be obvious...

[Zakath]

They're merely games.

The movement of the planchette is not due to paranormal forces but to unnoticeable movements by those controlling the pointer, known as the ideomotor effect. The same kind of unnoticeable movement is at work in dowsing...

In Thirty Years Among the Dead (1924), American psychiatrist Dr. Carl Wickland claims that using the Ouija board "resulted in such wild insanity that commitment to asylums was necessitated." Is this what happens when amateurs try to dabble in the occult? Maybe, if they are suggestible, not very skeptical and a bit disturbed to begin with. However, even very intelligent people who have not gone insane are impressed by Ouija board sessions. They find it difficult to explain the "communication" as the ideomotor effect reflecting unconscious thoughts. One reason they find such an explanation difficult to accept is that the "communications" are sometimes very vile and unpleasant. It is more psychologically pleasing to attribute vile pronouncements to evil spirits than to admit that one among you is harboring vile thoughts. Also, some of the "communications" express fears rather than wishes, such as the fear of death, and such notions can have a very visible and significant effect on some people.

- Ouija Board - by Robert Todd Carroll (The Skeptics Dictionary) (http://skepdic.com/ouija.html)

[NoHell]

Yes.

[Clete]

1Sa 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from king.


2Ch 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: [b]also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told [you] in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Easton's Bible dictionary says this...

"Witchcraft: ( 1Sa 15:23; 2Ki 9:22; 2Ch 33:6; Mic 5:12; Nah 3:4; Gal 5:20). In the popular sense of the word no mention is made either of witches or of witchcraft in Scripture.

The "witch of En-dor" ( 1Sa 28) was a necromancer, i.e., one who feigned to hold converse with the dead. The damsel with "a spirit of divination" ( Act 16:16) was possessed by an evil spirit, or, as the words are literally rendered, "having a spirit, a pithon." The reference is to the heathen god Apollo, who was regarded as the god of prophecy. "

The law concerning wichcraft...

Exodus 22:18 "You shall not permit a sorceress to live."

Leviticus 19:31 Give no regard to mediums and familiar spirits; do not seek after them, to be defiled by them: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:6 'And the person who turns to mediums and familiar spirits, to prostitute himself with them, I will set My face against that person and cut him off from his people. 7 Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 20:27 'A man or a woman who is a medium, or who has familiar spirits, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones. Their blood shall be upon them.'"


Any more questions?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[PureX]

The spelling of it is truly demonic. The rest of it is nonsense. Get an Eight Ball - they're more fun.

[Nietzschean]

An ouija board is a piece of wood. Unless you can convince me that the trees from which they're carved are somehow Evil Satanic Trees™ of Doom, then I cannot see how an ouija board could possibly be evil. But then again, knives aren't evil either. And neither is a length of rope. And neither is a soundproof basement. And neither is being attracted to women. But when people find out that you've been locking women in your basement, tying them down and slowly carving them into itty bitty screaming pieces for your own sadistic pleasure.. that's when things get into the gray area. Kinda like ouija boards, which are probably made from the same Evil Satanic Trees™ as the hilts of the knives doing the carving into the womanflesh.

'Cause ya know, it's Satan doing it.
No human or ambivalent being could be doing it.
Blame it all on Satan, he's a good scapegoat for anything.

[Sealeaf]

The thing itself can't be evil but can be an occasion of sin. The use of the board is sinful because it is an attempt at magic. That is if it is done with "seriousness". The ideomotor effect makes the talking board seem like it really works, this leads people to treat it seriously, and that is trying to preform real magic which is sinful.

I know of one case where a young girl played with a talking board and became convinced she was possessed. She was hospitalized for weeks at a top line psychiatric institution without a cure.

Don't take a chance on the things. Don't own one. Don't allow one in your home. Above all don't use one.

[Freak]

Originally posted by Sealeaf


Don't take a chance on the things. Don't own one. Don't allow one in your home. Above all don't use one. :up:

[LightSon]

Break it down.
Why are you playing this game?
Do you allow that something supernatural will happen?
If not, then why play? You might as well fingerpaint.
If yes, then whence comes this supernatural influence?
Does it come from God?
Clete has aleady given several good scriptures about this. God has indicated His displeasure with such devices and will not be communicating to you this way.
Hence if anything supernatural happens, it isn't from God.
Why would you want to have a evil spiritual force communicate to you? Do you you think it will be interested in your welfare?

To think you are asking for trouble is an understatement.

[Zakath]

Playing with a Ouija Board is no more intrinsically "evil" than playing any other board game. It's what you bring to it in the way of expectations, fears, religious brainwashing, etc. that makes it dangerous for a few people.

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Zakath

Playing with a Ouija Board is no more intrinsically "evil" than playing any other board game. It's what you bring to it in the way of expectations, fears, religious brainwashing, etc. that makes it dangerous for a few people.

Spoken like a true brainwasher who actually finds people who are willing to fork over their hard-earned dollars and say, in effect, "Please brainwash me, oh wise one."
:darwinsm:

[karstkid]

Originally posted by Zakath
Playing with a Ouija Board is no more intrinsically "evil" than playing any other board game. It's what you bring to it in the way of expectations, fears, religious brainwashing, etc. that makes it dangerous for a few people.

Zakath,

You really do not know what you are talking about. Ouija boards are an entrance into the occult in the same way that Astrology and Tarot cards are. It is nothing to fool around with. It is extremely dangerous for it opens one up to the demonic. The occult is a direct way to allow Satan into one's life.

BTW, my avatar is a Celtic cross. In that type of cross the cross portion is always superimposed over the circle. The circle represents the sun god and the occult practices of the Celts. The cross obviously represents Christ and His victory over the occult demonic forces. This is exactly what St. Patrick did to overcome the occultic forces that dominated ancient Ireland by preaching the Gospel and introducing the Irish to Christ.

[Nietzschean]

You can stick the paranoia with a fork!

[Zakath]

Originally posted by wholearmor

Spoken like a true brainwasher who actually finds people who are willing to fork over their hard-earned dollars and say, in effect, "Please brainwash me, oh wise one." I guess they don't take up collections at your church, eh? :chuckle:

[Zakath]

Originally posted by karstkid

Zakath,

You really do not know what you are talking about.Oh really? Perhaps you can educate me...

Ouija boards are an entrance into the occult in the same way that Astrology and Tarot cards are. It is nothing to fool around with. It is extremely dangerous for it opens one up to the demonic. The occult is a direct way to allow Satan into one's life.:think: Hmmm. Satan, eh? Another one of those invisible, imaginary, allegedly supernatural beings you people believe are responsible for human evil?

Darn, and I though I was going to learn something new. ;)
BTW, my avatar is a Celtic cross. In that type of cross the cross portion is always superimposed over the circle. The circle represents the sun god and the occult practices of the Celts. The cross obviously represents Christ and His victory over the occult demonic forces. This is exactly what St. Patrick did to overcome the occultic forces that dominated ancient Ireland by preaching the Gospel and introducing the Irish to Christ. The symbol you refer to as a Celtic cross pre-dates Christianity by quite a bit. There is one laid in standing stones at Callanish that is estimated to be about 4,000 years old. Stones found in caves in the Pyrennees (presumably painted by the ancestors of the Gallic Celts) dated to about 10,000 years ago are painted with similar symbols.

The older crosses have four equal legs allegedly representing the cardinal directions of the world or the four elements of earth, air, fire, and water coming together to form the circle (the world). Since a plain circle often represents the moon, a circle with rays may well represent the sun. Such designs have been found in many pre-Christian cultures. There appear to be no human cultures without some form of art and no human cultures without crosses and circles in their art.

When the Christians adopted the symbol, along with a variety of Celt deities who became Christian saints, they lenghtened the bottom leg to more closely resemble the Latin cross, popular at the time. One old story tells how Patrick marked a Latin cross through the circle of the moon goddess and then blessed the stone, making the first Celtic cross.

[Nietzschean]

Nice comeback Zak.

[brother Willi]

Are Ouija Boards Evil?

YES!!!

[Nietzschean]

Are 2x4s evil? No!
Are ouija boards, painted 2x4s, evil? No!

I mean, not that I use one or anything - I don't ascribe to a bunch of silliness - but the thought of an inanimate object being evil is just plain silly.

[brother Willi]

2 Chronicles 33:6
He made his sons pass through the fire in the valley of Ben-hinnom; and he practiced witchcraft, used divination, practiced sorcery and dealt with mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the sight of the LORD, provoking Him to anger.

[Nietzschean]

Ouija boards are mock divinition, as has been proven. There is no divination, and thus there is no sin.

[Zakath]

If divination were real, it would work.

No one has ever, to my knowledge, demonstrated accurate divination using a Ouija board under controlled conditions. Thus they have been demonstrated not to be actual divination tools, but toys.

[karstkid]

Originally posted by Zakath

Oh really? Perhaps you can educate me...

:think: Hmmm. Satan, eh? Another one of those invisible, imaginary, allegedly supernatural beings you people believe are responsible for human evil?

In addition to the demonic there is also our own sin nature (Jesus called us evil) and the world system that is responsible for human evil.

Zakath, if there is no God, what is your basis for your morality? Who sets the standard for your ethics? What is the purpose of life? Of your life? How do you justify your existence? Are you just an meaningless piece of matter condemned to death on a larger but equally meaningless piece of matter called Earth? Without God you and all of humanity has no significance. You are then as Solomon said in the book of Ecclesiates living a vain and meaningless existence.


Originally posted by Zakath
Darn, and I though I was going to learn something new. ;)
The symbol you refer to as a Celtic cross pre-dates Christianity by quite a bit. There is one laid in standing stones at Callanish that is estimated to be about 4,000 years old. Stones found in caves in the Pyrennees (presumably painted by the ancestors of the Gallic Celts) dated to about 10,000 years ago are painted with similar symbols.

The older crosses have four equal legs allegedly representing the cardinal directions of the world or the four elements of earth, air, fire, and water coming together to form the circle (the world). Since a plain circle often represents the moon, a circle with rays may well represent the sun. Such designs have been found in many pre-Christian cultures. There appear to be no human cultures without some form of art and no human cultures without crosses and circles in their art.

When the Christians adopted the symbol, along with a variety of Celt deities who became Christian saints, they lenghtened the bottom leg to more closely resemble the Latin cross, popular at the time. One old story tells how Patrick marked a Latin cross through the circle of the moon goddess and then blessed the stone, making the first Celtic cross.

Please read my post on St. Patrick in General Theology.

[Nietzschean]

My reply--

Existance justifies itself.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by karstkid
Zakath, if there is no God, what is your basis for your morality? My education, past experiences and the experiences of those I am familair with.

Who sets the standard for your ethics?Since I became an adult, I do.

What is the purpose of life?Of your life? How do you justify your existence? Are you just an meaningless piece of matter condemned to death on a larger but equally meaningless piece of matter called Earth? What does this have to do with Ouija boards???? :think:

I'm thinking this line of questioning belongs in the philosophy thread. It has little or nothing to do with the topic at hand...

Without God you and all of humanity has no significance. So you say. I, on the other hand, say you're incorrect. My life has great significance to me. :D

Please read my post on St. Patrick in General Theology. I did. Why, was there something interesting there? :think:

[OMEGA]

Regardless of Zak's Spiritual Ignorance,

Ouija boards invite demon participation.:devil:

[Nietzschean]

Omega.

If I believe that waving my hand in a certain way, or that twirling my pencil while it's in the pencil sharpener, invites demons, does that mean that it does? What if someone else (like you) thinks that it might, but I am sure that it doesn't? Does it still invite them?

:think::chuckle:

[firechyld]

If belief is what makes an activity "demonic", then I think your "God" is a bit hard on the mentally ill.

[SOTK]

Originally posted by Prinny

Is it evil to play with a Ouija board?

My friend and I were playing with one a few weeks ago and some really odd stuff happened. When I told my grandmother's pastor who was visiting about it he got really upset and said it is demonic. My parents don't really have an opinion, so I'm wondering what people here think. :confused:

You shouldn't be messing around with this stuff! Why would you want to invite evil into your life? As a Christian, I believe in the Spirt world and therefore believe in the daily battle which is going on around us as we speak. Demons are real. Don't mess with them!

[Nietzschean]

SOTK -- read my post, #30.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by firechyld

If belief is what makes an activity "demonic", then I think your "God" is a bit hard on the mentally ill. Christians thought the mentally ill were demonized for centuries...

It's only the last two hundred years or so, that Western thought has moved pretty uniformly to a mechanical model of disease and mental illness rather than a spiritual model.

Except for a few fundies, that is... :chuckle:

[Nietzschean]

You know, that reminds me of something I read once. According to what I read (and I can't for the life of me remember where I read it), the present practice of Western Medicine is horribly skewed. It alleges that about a hundred years ago the Phamaceuticals companies got together with the Medical Practicioners and cut a deal that benefits both of them. So long as the Medical Practicioners would lend their prognoses toward surgery and medicine, in lieu of holistic treatments and spritual cleansings such as acupunture and other things), the Pharmaceuticals companies would help pay for the research for new proceedures. This makes the pharmaceuticals lots of money from the drug prescriptions, and the doctors lots of money from the jobs for research.

Ya know, come to think of it..
I can't ever remember anyone I know of who has had acupuncture treatments having a bad result from it. I know that the majority of people are horribly skeptical of new age things (why is acupuncture, a millennia-old proceedure, considered new age?), but I can't remember a single case where the skepticism was shown to have been worth it.

:think::chuckle:

[Zakath]

If accupuncture actually works, then there is the possibility of malpractice using it...


Much of what is treated with accupuncture is not accurately diagnosed by a trained physician so it's difficult to tell what the person receiving treatment actually had to begin with...

That said, I've seen little evidence to support its effectiveness beyond what is referred to as the "placebo effect" which is mainly convincing the patient that things will get better, so they do.

Allopathic medicine (treating symptoms) as we do in the West has some good points, but there is still very much to learn about how the body works and how the mind interacts with the body and affects it. That is an area where a study of Eastern medicine can provide some insights.

[OMEGA]

Nietzschean

You obviously have never played with a Ouija Board.

Who do you think that these players are consulting

when they ask for answers ????

[Nietzschean]

Let me pose you a hypothetical situation Zakath.

Let us say that we have a patient, John Doe, who has an obscure inflamation of the stomach for which modern medicine has no viable remedy or cure. It could be any other sort of defect, for the purpose of this exercise, so long as it causes the patient noticeable pain. An inflamation of the stomach is just the first thing that came to mind.

Let us assume that John Doe is not a licenced medical practicioner, so he doesn't know that his stomach muscle is swollen; he just realizes that he has pain in it. By establishing that modern medical science has no viable remedy or cure for his condition, we have ruled out any possible betterment as a result of medication. This is important.

Possibility A.
John Doe goes to some sort of hollistic healer. Maybe he gets his chakras re-aligned, maybe he has some acupuncture. Maybe he just runs in circles for a little while, chanting the names of the Buddhas. Maybe he confesses all his sins to God, and asks for divine intervention. It doesn't matter really what sort of hollistics is done, for the purpose of this exercise, so long as it has no component in it that would logically lead to an effect, according to modern medical science.

Two weeks later, John Doe's stomach pain is gone, and the swelling of his stomach has gone down.


Possibility B.
John Doe goes to a licenced physician, and then is sent to a specialist. Medical science has no way of curing his ailment, so they just give him some pain releivers. The doctor also prescribes him an obscure-sounding drug, which turns out to be nothing more than a sugar pill or mild sedative, or some other thing that would have no compnent in it that would logically lead to an effect, according to modern medical science.

Two weeks later, John Doe's stomach pain is gone, and the swelling of his stomach has gone down.



In a situation such as this, which is the better medicine? In either case, the result was due either to the placebo effect or to some rule that modern medical science has not yet discovered. Perhaps even a bit of both. Or maybe Divine Intervention took place in both cases.

The point of this, sir, is what's so bad about the placebo effect?
People always talk down of it, as though it were some bad thing.
If it accomplishes its purpose, healing the patient, isn't it good?

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by OMEGA

Nietzschean

You obviously have never played with a Ouija Board.

Who do you think that these players are consulting

when they ask for answers ????

Omega

I will admit that most people who play with an Ouija Board hope to make contact with spirits, demons, apparitions, God, Satan, or some other metaphysical entity that cannot be proven to exist, much less be directly affecting the results. Despite the message that comes on the box of most Ouija Boards and other Talking Boards (i do happen to own one, with a pattern that's supposed to be symbolic of the Goddess Arianrhod), people still think this.

I will submit to you that the people are consulting nothing and no one other than perhaps their own subconscious. The placebo effect is a perfectly valid explination, as is the autonomic nerve explination. The subsconscious rules them both. Therefore, even if the players are specifically trying to make contact with a very specific being, it's still most likely the subconscious that is doing the talking.

If I sit down with an Ouija Board, and I try to make contact with Mickey Mouse, or perhaps with Dick Tracey or Superman, I will no doubt get just as good a result as someone trying to get into contact with Aunt Ingred, or the archeduke of tartarus.

The point I'm trying to make is this:
What you or I believe to be true, and what anyone else believes to be true, is completely irrelevant. Unless you ascribe to a very obscure metaphysical outlook known as Discordia, or believe in the existance of psychokinetic energy, then it is a given that what a person thinks to be true does not change what the truth really is. Therefore, if I think I am talking to Aunt Ingred, I am still just moving the piece subconsciously.

I could apply this to any number of things. Just because I think the sky is red, doesn't make it not blue. Just because I think that God is a crazy woman doesn't change whether he is or isnt. Just because I think that reincarnation is real doesn't change whether or not it is or isn't. You see what I'm saying?

What you THINK
Does not MATTER


fnord

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nietzschean
...The point of this, sir, is what's so bad about the placebo effect?
People always talk down of it, as though it were some bad thing.
If it accomplishes its purpose, healing the patient, isn't it good? There is nothing "bad" about the placebo effect, per se. The placebo effect is dependent on the human mind operating to override some physical condition.

Notably placebos are generally not effective for things like lost limbs, many genetic abnormalities, gunshot wounds, severe blood loss, massive trauma from physical injuries, organic brain disorders, etc.

Which might explain why you will seldom, if ever, see such things "cured" during religious "miracle rallies" or by "faith healers".

But the problem arises when it is misused... perhaps by promising someone they will be cured of something that placeboes are known not to be effective on and taking a fee or perhaps "an offering". :(

[Nietzschean]

Valid point.

[Zakath]

Thanks. :)

[OMEGA]

EAGLE said "

The point I'm trying to make is this:
What you or I believe to be true, and what anyone else believes to be true, is completely irrelevant. Unless you ascribe to a very obscure metaphysical outlook known as Discordia, or believe in the existance of psychokinetic energy, then it is a given that what a person thinks to be true does not change what the truth really is. Therefore, if I think I am talking to Aunt Ingred, I am still just moving the piece subconsciously.

I could apply this to any number of things. Just because I think the sky is red, doesn't make it not blue. Just because I think that God is a crazy woman doesn't change whether he is or isnt. Just because I think that reincarnation is real doesn't change whether or not it is or isn't. You see what I'm saying?

What you THINK
Does not MATTER
V
fiord
========

Interesting Concept NITS so, you Believe that

"what the truth really is" is what YOU Believe to be True.

OK, then , if someone puts a gun to your Head and pulls the

Trigger and puts a Bullet through your head.

It is only True if YOU Believe it to be True.

VERY INTERESTING INTELLECTUAL CONCEPT . :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

[Nietzschean]

...no, I said the exact opposite of it.

Let me give you more examples.

Let us assume that God is actually a walrus, and that it's not even the Judeo-Christian deity. If that is true, your belief that God is more or less a humanoid is irrelevant. It's also wrong, if God is actually a walrus. But if God is actually the humanoid omnideity that Judeo-Christian belief thinks it is, the belief that he is or isn't is still just as irrelevant. Belief is irrelevant. Whether you're right or wrong in your belief, what you believe is irrelevant in the greater scheme of things.

If I think that George Bush is going to get re-elected, that belief is irrelevant. If he doesn't get elected, I'm not only irrelevant but also wrong. If he does get re-elected, I'm just irrelevant. Can you not grasp the concept of what I'm hinting at? I am saying that, for all the emphasis we put on the ego and self-esteem and the glorification of self and the definition of things in regard to how humans perceive them, what we think and what we imagine is completely irrelevant.

That's all I'm saying.






But as for your question, I could argue that your mocking abstraction is true. There is a theory that Perception is necessary for Existance. If in some way you could shoot me without me perceiving the existance of the bullet (consciously or unconsciously), then I would be immune to its effects. Of course, to do this, you'd have to bend the rules of space-time in your favor so as to strike me before actually setting out to strike me, or you'd have to really manipulate quantum physics and thermodynamics.

But this is all irrelevant too.


When it comes down to it, our outlook on the world is inherently flawed because we are flawed. This is what we call the Von Neumann Catastrophe; a state of infinite regression. He came up with it when trying to overcome the Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle of quantum mechanics; in order to eliminate Uncertainty, the Uncertainty would first have to be eliminated. For any tool made to measure the level of uncertainty would have its own level of uncertainty that makes it unreliable. And any tool that measured that tool's uncertainty has its own uncertainty, ad infinitum.

I could compare this with the idea of neuro- anything. Neuro is a prefix that denotes "known to or mediated by the nervous system," if I remember correctly. All of human knowledge is knowledge that is known to or mediated by the nervous system. That means all science is actually neuro-science. There is no such thing as physics, just neuro-physics. And this becomes it's own infinite regress catastrophe when you realize that there is no such thing as neurology either; only neuro-neurology. But that neuro-neurology is known to the nervous system, so you have actually neuro-neuro-neurology. Ad infinitum, again. In theory, the only religion is neuro-neuro-neuro-neuro-(ad infinitum)-religion.

Confused?
Good!

Now stop skim-reading my posts (or twisting my words, whichever you did), or I'll turn your brain inside out and use it as a pin cushion!

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Omega

I will admit that most people who play with an Ouija Board hope to make contact with spirits, demons, apparitions, God, Satan, or some other metaphysical entity that cannot be proven to exist, much less be directly affecting the results. I

im gonna guess youre an atheist

[Nietzschean]

I've never claimed to be one. I'm actually one of the most gullible persons you can find, willing to accept all sorts of esoteric ideas without much need for proof to lend my support or belief. I just admit that, at present, there is no scientific way to prove that any of it exists. This is not to say that they cannot be scientifically proven to exist, or that they don't exist; it just means exactly what it says, that they cannot at this point in time be proven to exist. A thousand years ago, atoms couldn't be proven to exist. But we all know that they exist, don't we?

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

I've never claimed to be one. I'm actually one of the most gullible persons you can find, willing to accept all sorts of esoteric ideas without much need for proof to lend my support or belief. I just admit that, at present, there is no scientific way to prove that any of it exists. This is not to say that they cannot be scientifically proven to exist, or that they don't exist; it just means exactly what it says, that they cannot at this point in time be proven to exist. A thousand years ago, atoms couldn't be proven to exist. But we all know that they exist, don't we?

do you know why an ATOM is called an ATOM?

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by brother Willi

im gonna guess youre an atheist
Now that I've responded intelligently, I have two things to say:

"I know you are, but what am I?"
and
What in the name of Jesus H. Christ does my religious persuasion have to do with this?

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by brother Willi

do you know why an ATOM is called an ATOM?
It comes from the greek meaning smallest, or indivisible. Technically, the very word Atom is incorrect, since we have found sub-atomic particles, and sub-sub-atomic particles, and we have even split the atom.

Therefore, atom - meaning indivisible - is in fact divisible, and the name should be changed.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by brother Willi

do you know why an ATOM is called an ATOM?
I have to wonder sir, are you simply trying to discredit me? That's the only reason I can think of to rationalize your picking at what I've said, especially since you're choosing to nit-pick such totally irrelevant details that have nothing at all to do with the overall message of my posts.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Now that I've responded intelligently, I have two things to say:

"I know you are, but what am I?"
and
What in the name of Jesus H. Christ does my religious persuasion have to do with this?
come on now, think about it.

if you believe there are no fish in a pond, would you believe if i said i caught on in that pond?

[Nietzschean]

Read my other posts please.
Belief is completely and thoroughly irrelevant.

What's real is true. Period.
If I believe in the tooth fairy, and it's not real, then I am not only irrelevant, I am also wrong. If I believe in Jesus and he is real, then I am not only irrelevant, I am also (subject to arguability with Jews, and everyone else who isn't Christian) right. Obviously, if you caught fish in it, there were fish in it to be caught. At least, that's the case if you hold to a Universe that follows Aristotlean logic, which says "it is either A, or it is not-A." The real thing though, as we know in Quantum Theory, is that the Universe exists in a state of "maybe" at all times.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

I have to wonder sir, are you simply trying to discredit me? That's the only reason I can think of to rationalize your picking at what I've said, especially since you're choosing to nit-pick such totally irrelevant details that have nothing at all to do with the overall message of my posts.

not at all.

i point out the fact that a belief from the past, has been proven.

things are dividable into things that are not visable

http://education.jlab.org/qa/history_01.html

[Nietzschean]

Except that you didn't point that out. I pointed out that the reason atoms are called atoms is that at one time they were thought to be indivisible, or rather their name originated from the theoretical idea some greek had for something so small that it could not be divided any further. Technically, quarks are "atoms" in that sense. Until we find something smaller.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Read my other posts please.
Belief is completely and thoroughly irrelevant.

What's real is true. Period.
.

interesting
how many believed Democritus was correct in his day?

is hidden truth not real till it is found?

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Except that you didn't point that out. I pointed out that the reason atoms are called atoms is that at one time they were thought to be indivisible, or rather their name originated from the theoretical idea some greek had for something so small that it could not be divided any further. Technically, quarks are "atoms" in that sense. Until we find something smaller.

were quarks not real truth till they were discovered?

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by brother Willi

interesting
how many believed Democritus was correct in his day?

is hidden truth not real till it is found?

I am somehow conveying an opposite of what I am intending to you people. TRUTH is truth whether people believe it or not, is what I am saying. What you believe is completely irrelevant; what's true is what's real. If you think 2+2=5, well good for you. If you think 2+2=4, well good for you. Neither one matters a bit at all. 2+2=4, and that's what's 'real,' at least in this reality and assuming that absolutes can and do exist.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by brother Willi

were quarks not real truth till they were discovered?

Truth is real. Whether or not anyone realizes it or believes in it.

Unless you happen to be an omnipotent being, or at least potent enough to reshape the laws of quantum mechanics, the basic space-time fabric, or some other neat trick having to do with the basic inter-connectedness of the Universe as we know it.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

I am somehow conveying an opposite of what I am intending to you people. TRUTH is truth whether people believe it or not, is what I am saying. What you believe is completely irrelevant; what's true is what's real. If you think 2+2=5, well good for you. If you think 2+2=4, well good for you. Neither one matters a bit at all. 2+2=4, and that's what's 'real,' at least in this reality and assuming that absolutes can and do exist.
true

but my point is just that
you say there is no proof of God.
i say there is.

time will tell which of us believes 2+2=4

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Truth is real. Whether or not anyone realizes it or believes in it.

Unless you happen to be an omnipotent being, or at least potent enough to reshape the laws of quantum mechanics, the basic space-time fabric, or some other neat trick having to do with the basic inter-connectedness of the Universe as we know it.
as we know it.
important to remember that is today
what will tomorrow bring

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by brother Willi

true

but my point is just that
you say there is no proof of God.
i say there is.

time will tell which of us believes 2+2=4

The only proof that God exists (and a lack of proof does not mean that He doesn't exist any more than a lack of proof of a Universal Field Theory discounts its plausibility) is a collection of extremly old stories and heresay. That is the type of proof that in our modern civilization is not accepted as reputable. So there is no proof of any measureable kind that God exists. The only possible phenomena that can be ascribed to God are Uncertainty and Synchronicity; and even then, only because they have not yet been fully explored so far as we know.

I am not saying that God doesn't exist.
I am not saying that God is dead.
I am saying that there is no reputable solid proof that He does.

And this lack of proof doesn't mean he doesn't.

Capiscé?

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by brother Willi

as we know it.
important to remember that is today
what will tomorrow bring

Exactly!

What is not proven today may be proven tomorrow! God may, sometime in the future, be proven to exist. If you believe the New Testament to be true, then we will ALL know that he exists at the Second Coming.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean


I am not saying that God doesn't exist.
I am not saying that God is dead.
I am saying that there is no reputable solid proof that He does.

And this lack of proof doesn't mean he doesn't.

Capiscé?
yep

but this is not for all.
some see proof, some dont

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Exactly!

What is not proven today may be proven tomorrow! God may, sometime in the future, be proven to exist. If you believe the New Testament to be true, then we will ALL know that he exists at the Second Coming.

:thumb:

[Nietzschean]

Now.. back to Ouija Boards.

They're not evil. :)

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Now.. back to Ouija Boards.

They're not evil. :)
dont you see that everything we have just talked about is about the Ouija Boards?

the intent of the user

[Nietzschean]

Nono, I have been talking about the objective state of the universe as opposed to subjectivism. Illumination as opposed to schizoid delusions, that's what I've been talking about. As I have shown, intent and belief are completely irrelevant; if you mean to summon a demon (assuming that demon-summong rituals work, and that doing the ritual right is necessary to summon one), but in some way mess up your demon-summoning, the demon isn't summoned, whether you believe it or not. And whether you believe you're interacting with demons by way of the Ouija Board, you're not if the demons aren't interacting with you. Likewise, if you believe you're not interacting with them, but they are in fact causing the movement, then you are interacting witht hem whether or not you believe it to be so.

Only thing I've said is that an inanimate object can't be held to moral tenents, basically.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Nono, I have been talking about the objective state of the universe as opposed to subjectivism. Illumination as opposed to schizoid delusions, that's what I've been talking about. As I have shown, intent and belief are completely irrelevant; if you mean to summon a demon (assuming that demon-summong rituals work, and that doing the ritual right is necessary to summon one), but in some way mess up your demon-summoning, the demon isn't summoned, whether you believe it or not. And whether you believe you're interacting with demons by way of the Ouija Board, you're not if the demons aren't interacting with you. Likewise, if you believe you're not interacting with them, but they are in fact causing the movement, then you are interacting witht hem whether or not you believe it to be so.

can intent truely be seperated?



Only thing I've said is that an inanimate object can't be held to moral tenents, basically.

is wood evil, NO

can i make a club out of wood and hit a baseball YES

can i form wood to be something evil, YES

[Nietzschean]

I don't see how you allege that an inanimate object can be evil. I don't understand it at all. The only thing that makes an object evil or holy or whatever is because it represents something that the person perceiving it assumes is evil or holy. If you are raised to think that the peace symbol was evil because your father thought that hippies were a bunch of commie freaks, and were thus, because they opposed America, evil agents of Satan, then you would probably think that the peace symbol was an "evil" symbol, and that a medallion or amulet of one is an "evil" object. Someone raised today understands what the peace symbol is supposed to mean, and can see how it probably isn't one. Afterall, Jesus preached non-violence, what with the whole dyin' on the cross and "turn the other cheek" thing.

The point is that an object can't be good or evil, holy or unholy.

[LightSon]

Originally posted by OMEGA
... if someone puts a gun to your Head and pulls the

Trigger and puts a Bullet through your head.

It is only True if YOU Believe it to be True.

VERY INTERESTING INTELLECTUAL CONCEPT . :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle: :chuckle:

This actually happened!!!

In "Spectre of the Gun," Spock had to mindmeld with the rest of the landing party, so that they would believe the bullets were not real, and hence could not kill. :ha: That pretty much proves it. eh?

[Nietzschean]

Now they're catching on..
Now they're catching on..


Soon they will realize their psychokinetic potential.
We must eliminate them before they can respond!

[OMEGA]

I found this Old Philosophy on the Web for Nitz .

I think that this old Chestnut is what you are referring to .
-------------------
Web posted Thursday, April 2, 1998 5:45 a.m. CT

Man often makes god in his image


By JOHN LAWRENCE


My guess is that the most frequently ignored commandments is "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

How to apply this rule within the Christian tradition has been contentious at times.

The English Puritans, for example, attacked the stained glass and statuary of churches as their way of being faithful to the Bible command. When they migrated to the American colonies, their architecture favored plain exterior structures, accompanied by spare decoration within. Religious paintings or sculpture just did not match their sense of how to be worshipful.

I thought about this strand of our history when my wife and I visited Italy in March. One of Italy's extraordinary legacies is its collection of churches from the late middle ages and Renaissance. Many of the Christian cathedrals of Venice, Florence, and Rome were designed and embellished by great architects and artists. The popes and the church's patrons had the wealth and social authority to commission major buildings and employ geniuses like Michelangelo, Bernini and Raphael to design them and create the religious imagery.

After viewing hundreds of these sacred images from an earlier period in Christian history, one begins to sense the conventions that guided creators. The most popular emblems feature the virgin Mary and the baby Jesus. To indicate that Mary and Jesus had divine powers, artists gave Mary and Jesus halos. Sometimes they were faint rings of light, more often they appear to be golden plates with handsome burnished patterns. In many of the pictures, both Mary and Jesus wear crowns, often adorned with precious jewels. They can also wear handsome clothes and sit in what appear to be royal palaces.

The least familiar representations to me - and here I show my Protestant upbringing - showed the Coronation of Queen Mary in heaven by King Jesus. For the occasion, both wear wonderful, bejeweled golden crowns.

My brief immersion in this tradition confirmed my belief that the artistic vision draws much of its inspiration from the social mores of its own time. When kings and queens, dukes and duchesses held power in society, how could an artist convincingly suggest SUPREME power without bestowing the look of royalty? Could Jesus and Mary achieve parity with the mighty ones of their time if they lacked regal clothing and ornaments? Apparently many artists thought not.

It is always easy to look back historically and to notice how earlier generations project so much of themselves into what they worship. But without straining, we can probably detect the same tendencies hundreds of years later.

Bruce Barton's best selling book of 1925, "The Man Nobody Knew," told Americans that Jesus was actually one of the first great business executives. After all, he had taken a few disciples and built a worldwide enterprise.

The widely popular musical "Jesus Christ Superstar" of the 1960s turns Jesus into a rock performer. No one pretends that Jesus actually was an executive or rock star. The suggestion is merely that these are illuminating ways to see Jesus.

But how much can such comparisons really tell us? And rather than challenging people's complacency, do these "versions" of Jesus merely confirm what makes them feel comfortable about their own way of life?

Perhaps we can find here the point of the neglected commandment against graven images- the fear that pictures of the divine inevitably shade themselves in the direction of cultural self-portrait.

John Lawrence, an Amarillo native, has had a career in teaching philosophy.

[OMEGA]

A Gun is a Tool - it can be used for good or evil.

Money is a Tool - it can be used for good or evil.

A Hammer is a Tool - it can be used for good or evil.

A Ouija Board is a Tool - it CANNOT be used for good ONLY evil.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

I don't see how you allege that an inanimate object can be evil. I don't understand it at all. The only thing that makes an object evil or holy or whatever is because it represents something that the person perceiving it assumes is evil or holy. If you are raised to think that the peace symbol was evil because your father thought that hippies were a bunch of commie freaks, and were thus, because they opposed America, evil agents of Satan, then you would probably think that the peace symbol was an "evil" symbol, and that a medallion or amulet of one is an "evil" object. Someone raised today understands what the peace symbol is supposed to mean, and can see how it probably isn't one. Afterall, Jesus preached non-violence, what with the whole dyin' on the cross and "turn the other cheek" thing.

The point is that an object can't be good or evil, holy or unholy.

look at it as a baseball bat that cant hit a baseball unless picked up, and used to do so.

even just sitting there, it is still a baseball bat.

and thats exactly why intent can not be seperated in this case

[Gerald]

Originally posted by OMEGA
A Ouija Board is a Tool - it CANNOT be used for good ONLY evil. First you'll have to demonstrate that a Ouija board actually works.

The silly things have been tested in laboratories, and nothing even remotely paranormal has ever been demonstrated to occur.

Must be all those skeptics generating an "anti-paranormal" field...

:chuckle:

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by OMEGA


A Ouija Board is a Tool - it CANNOT be used for good ONLY evil.
:thumb:

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by OMEGA

A Gun is a Tool - it can be used for good or evil.

Money is a Tool - it can be used for good or evil.

A Hammer is a Tool - it can be used for good or evil.

A Ouija Board is a Tool - it CANNOT be used for good ONLY evil.

I don't see your logic at all. Explain to me what about a board with numbers and letters on it has about it that makes it a tool? It's not a tool, really; the thing you push around is the tool. The board is just the media upon which the tool does its work. That's been my point all along really, but no one has been able to notice it. An ouija board is no different from a book, or a chess board; it is the person using it who thinks it will mean something by moving a little glass around on it that has the potential to do evil. I have a nice-looking "talking board," that I use purely as an objet d'art, and in that way it is entirely good.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by brother Willi

look at it as a baseball bat that cant hit a baseball unless picked up, and used to do so.

even just sitting there, it is still a baseball bat.

and thats exactly why intent can not be seperated in this case

You can use a baseball bat for other things. As an objet d'art, for example. Or a trophy. And you needn't use it at all. Likewise, an Ouija Board, much like a chess board, can be used as a coaster, as a paper weight, as an inclined plane upon which to move little Hot Wheels cars, or any number of things. I maintain, the object is not evil.

[OMEGA]

An Atomic Bomb can be used as an object of Art sitting on a Table

in your Living Room near where your child crawls around the floor.

Make sure that your lovely little child does not BUMP that table

and knock that BOMB off that Table .

[Nietzschean]

..because if he does, he might hurt his foot.

An atomic bomb will not explode if dropped. It is incredibly difficult to set off a properly crafted atomic bomb. Even if you threw it into the sun, it wouldn't explode. You have to make sure that a bunch of tiny little explosions around that plutonium happen at exactly the same time; even a millisecond apart and they won't produce the right effect. And besides, an Atomic Bomb is a weapon, just as is a gun. And you have already decided that guns can be used for good or evil, so by that reasoning so too should Atomic Bombs.

King's Bishop to Queen Three

[OMEGA]

Exactly, Just like a Gun or a Quija Board;

If you have it around and if you know how to set it up etc. ,

the Temptation is there to use it for Evil Selfish Desires.

Black - 2 knights out


Knight from C-6 to B-4 attacking Bishop on Queen 3

[Nietzschean]

And likewise the temptation is there to not use it at all, or to use it for good purposes. If we are to throw out everything around us that can possibly cause Evil Selfish Desires or Temptations in us, then we would have to kill everyone around us (since people might cause us to covet what they have, to lust after their bodies or to feel vanity or pride about ourselves), destroy every tangible object around us (since food could cause gluttony, machines and tools could cause sloth, and literature could cause us to question the Bible), and lock ourselves away in a dark room to die. That's the extreme of what you are suggesting.

A better thing to do is this: if you think it's a sin, don't do it.
By the same token, shut up and mind your own business if someone else thinks it's fine.

[OMEGA]

Nitz said:

A better thing to do is this: if you think it's a sin, don't do it.
By the same token, shut up and mind your own business if someone else thinks it's fine.
--------------------------------------------------------------

So, if someone else thinks that Murder and Rape is just fine

and their Ouija Board tells spells out your Address

and you are sitting in your home with your lovely young

children just learning to walk and speak and saying Dadda

and Mamma and you are just minding your own business

and somebody breaks into your home and ties you up and

Rapes your Wife and Murders your Children in front of you.

You think that is Ok do you ?


[Knight takes Bishop = Check]

[Zakath]

Originally posted by OMEGA

A Ouija Board is a Tool - it CANNOT be used for good ONLY evil. A Ouija Board™ is a game, not a tool. It says so, right on the box. :chuckle:

[OMEGA]

Zak,

Life is a Game too .

[OMEGA]

Zak,

Life is a Game too .

Will you be a Winner or a Loser ?

[Zakath]

Originally posted by OMEGA

Zak,

Life is a Game too .

Will you be a Winner or a Loser ? I've won so far. But, in the end, we all lose to entropy. :chuckle:

[Kiwicottonball]

Here are my two cents:

Ouija Boards evil? This is, in my opinion, a silly notion. Ouija Boards are no more evil than say, a Magic 8 Ball or the like.

Whoever thought up the first Ouija Board was most likely thinking, "Hey, let's do one of those fortune teller thingies to sell to kids who have slumber parties! They'll pretend it's real!" It's a TOY, it's fake. Playing with a Ouija Board makes one about as evil as playing with a child's kitchenette makes them a 5 Star Chef.

I venture to say the only reason we are having this discussion over Ouija Boards is because of the hype it has recieved over the years due to stuff like ghost hunting and over eager teenagers who scare easily. I have played with Ouija Boards before, and find them incredibly boring. I feel no more evil using one than I do picking up a Magic 8 Ball, asking "Is my name Teri" and giving it a shake.

Things like this can only have negative (evil) conotations if people assist to make it so.

[OMEGA]

Zak,

(Heb 9:27 KJV) "And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment:"


(2 Cor 5:10 KJV) "For we must all appear before the judgment seat

of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body,

according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

[Gerald]

Originally posted by OMEGA
So, if someone else thinks that Murder and Rape is just fine

and their Ouija Board tells spells out your Address

and you are sitting in your home with your lovely young

children just learning to walk and speak and saying Dadda

and Mamma and you are just minding your own business

and somebody breaks into your home and ties you up and

Rapes your Wife and Murders your Children in front of you.
Is that one of those guys who's able to kick in solid oak doors and just laughs if you hit him or stab him, and when he's done doing his dirty work he walks unscathed through a hail a police gunfire, like the Terminator?

You really need to stop watching movies about Super Killers™; they don't reflect reality at all. :kookoo:

[OMEGA]

GERALD,

I SERIOUSLY THINK THAT YOU NEED PSYCHIATRIC HELP !!

[firechyld]

You're the one who thinks Satan used to live on Mars.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by OMEGA

Zak,

(Heb 9:27 KJV) "And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment:"


(2 Cor 5:10 KJV) "For we must all appear before the judgment seat

of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body,

according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." But I think that book is, how shall we say it, a slight bit inaccurate... :chuckle:

[Gerald]

Originally posted by OMEGA

GERALD,

I SERIOUSLY THINK THAT YOU NEED PSYCHIATRIC HELP !! OMEGA is, of course, quite oblivious to the irony of this statement.

Presumably, he is disputing my statement that movies about invincible super killers do not reflect reality...

:chuckle:

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by OMEGA

Nitz said:

A better thing to do is this: if you think it's a sin, don't do it.
By the same token, shut up and mind your own business if someone else thinks it's fine.
--------------------------------------------------------------

So, if someone else thinks that Murder and Rape is just fine

and their Ouija Board tells spells out your Address

and you are sitting in your home with your lovely young

children just learning to walk and speak and saying Dadda

and Mamma and you are just minding your own business

and somebody breaks into your home and ties you up and

Rapes your Wife and Murders your Children in front of you.

You think that is Ok do you ?


[Knight takes Bishop = Check]

If someone breaks into my house and attempts all of these things, I pull out the trusty S&W "Super" 500, a .50 caliber weapon that's guaranteed to leave at least a three-quarter inch hole in the human skull! And while I agree with the person's right to choose to sin, I agree with my own right to sin right back on him. In fact, it wouldn't even be sinful to kill the person in self-defense. And me, being the pacifist and humanist that I am alleged to be, would of course just plug his kneecaps or something so as not to kill him.

Pawn takes Knight.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Zakath

I've won so far. But, in the end, we all lose to entropy. :chuckle:

All hail Discordia! ;)

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Gerald

Is that one of those guys who's able to kick in solid oak doors and just laughs if you hit him or stab him, and when he's done doing his dirty work he walks unscathed through a hail a police gunfire, like the Terminator?

You really need to stop watching movies about Super Killers™; they don't reflect reality at all. :kookoo:

You obviously never saw Bulletproof Monk! :darwinsm:

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

All hail Discordia! ;) If you say so...

[Nietzschean]

Entropy, Chaos, Disorder; it wins.
As I've shown in posts elsewhere, most ancient belief systems came up with their "imaginary friends" and "invisible buddies" as a personification of some sort of natural phenomena. Discordia, for example (or Eris, by her Greek name), is the embodiment of entropy and Disorder. Thus, all hail Discordia.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Entropy, Chaos, Disorder; it wins.Not in the Christian worldview...

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Zakath

Not in the Christian worldview...
I find a very distinct relationship between Christian manichean logic and Greek Aristotlean logic; the second law of thermodynamics, which proves my point, was wrought from Aristotlean logic. Therefore I hold that anyone who wants to prove it wrong should have to re-work the entire Christian Worldview system of logic. But if they do that, they'd have to acknowledge that the Universe exists in a state of "maybe," and in so doing that would pretty much lose all chance of disproving anything. Nice how that works out, eh?

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

I find a very distinct relationship between Christian manichean logic and Greek Aristotlean logic; the second law of thermodynamics, which proves my point, was wrought from Aristotlean logic. Therefore I hold that anyone who wants to prove it wrong should have to re-work the entire Christian Worldview system of logic. But if they do that, they'd have to acknowledge that the Universe exists in a state of "maybe," and in so doing that would pretty much lose all chance of disproving anything. Nice how that works out, eh? Not really.

Manicheaism was denounced by the Church as heresy. Read Augustine...

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Zakath
Manicheaism was denounced by the Church as heresy. Read Augustine...

Satan was denounced by God as evil. Read the Bible.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck
Satan was denounced by God as evil. Read the Bible.
You have been denounced as a fool. Go soak your head.

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Gerald

:vomit:

Go wash your sock, puppet.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

Go wash your sock, puppet. Open your mouth, adulterer.

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Gerald

:vomit:

You and Satan's full army of sockpuppets can't touch this.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

You and Satan's full army of sockpuppets can't touch this. PM me your real name and address if you really believe that...
:chuckle:

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Gerald

PM me your real name and address if you really believe that...
:chuckle:

PM me yours if you dare.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

:vomit:
You've got PM.

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Gerald

You've got PM.

You've got voice mail.

[On Fire]

Take my poll....please.

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=494799

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Zakath

Not really.

Manicheaism was denounced by the Church as heresy. Read Augustine...

It may have been denounced by the Church of Rome, but quite a few Protestants still practice it. :)

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

It may have been denounced by the Church of Rome, but quite a few Protestants still practice it. :) If you look long enough you can find a few of the 33,000+ sects of Christianity that practice almost anything...

Does the fact that some professing Christians somewhere do something make that something correct? :think:

[firechyld]

You and Satan's full army of sockpuppets can't touch this.

Can't touch this! *doo doo doo...*

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Zakath

If you look long enough you can find a few of the 33,000+ sects of Christianity that practice almost anything...


Liar.

[Zakath]

Any proof for that assertion? :think:

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Zakath

Any proof for that assertion? :think:

After you....

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Zakath

If you look long enough you can find a few of the 33,000+ sects of Christianity that practice almost anything...

Does the fact that some professing Christians somewhere do something make that something correct? :think:

Well of course it does
That's what makes them right and you wrong.. :chuckle:

[On Fire]

Do you think :zakath: is typing out all 33,000+ sects?

[On Fire]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

Do you think :zakath: is typing out all 33,000+ sects?

I guess not. Perhaps he's just full of it.

[Zakath]

Oh ye of little faith...

"33,800 Christian Denominations" (http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/articles/154.htm)

Here is the completely updated and greatly expanded new edition of a classic reference source--the comprehensive overview of the world's largest religion in all its many versions and in both its religious and secular contexts. Now in two volumes, the Encyclopedia presents and analyzes an unmatched wealth of information about the extent, status, and characteristics of twentieth-century Christianity worldwide. It takes full account of of Christianity's ecclesiastical branches, subdivisions, and denominations, and treats Christianity in relation to other faiths and the secular realm. It offers an unparalleled comparative study of churches and religions throughout the modern world...

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Zakath

Oh ye of little faith...

"33,800 Christian Denominations" (http://www.pastornet.net.au/jmm/articles/154.htm)

You and the link provide NOTHING.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

You and the link provide NOTHING. Have you read the book to confirm that it is incorrect?

If not, you're merely blowing hot air (again.)

Ciao! :cool:

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Zakath

Have you read the book to confirm that it is incorrect?

If not, you're merely blowing hot air (again.)

Ciao! :cool:

No, idiot. I asked for a list of the 33,000 sects and I didn't even get 10. So let me set you straight.

There is only one "sect": Christianity.

There are many sinful humans.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

No, idiot. I asked for a list of the 33,000 sects and I didn't even get 10. So let me set you straight.Oh really? Where?

There is only one "sect": Christianity.Apparently your irritating personality is only exceeded by your ignorance. If you want a list, spring for the books. Your argument is with the authors definitions, not me. ;)

Try contacting them and see how much they care about what you think. :chuckle:

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Zakath

Oh really? Where?



http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=495455#post495455

My argument is with YOU, :zakath:. You're the one posting half-truths and lies.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=495455#post495455

My argument is with YOU, :zakath:. You're the one posting half-truths and lies. Too bad that all you can do about it is wring your hands and squeal like a piggie...
:chuckle:

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Gerald

Too bad that all you can do about it is wring your hands and squeal like a piggie...
:chuckle:


Ummmm.....I can make sure people see his lies.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Gerald

Too bad that all you can do about it is wring your hands and squeal like a piggie...
:chuckle: The pig-boy doesn't seem to have much use except for comic relief and boosting post counts.

[On Fire]

Liar.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck
Liar. Prove it.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

Ummmm.....I can make sure people see his lies. Around here, you're preachin' to the choir.

How about waltzing over here (http://www.iidb.org), and showing how manly you are?

Ya gotta go out amongst the sinners if you wanna make a difference...

[On Fire]

Originally posted by Gerald

Around here, you're preachin' to the choir.

How about waltzing over here (http://www.iidb.org), and showing how manly you are?

Ya gotta go out amongst the sinners if you wanna make a difference...

Looks like the sos....

[Zakath]

Speaking of excrement, it's nice of you to fertilize our gardens by your presence, AS.

[Timbo]

What's so bad about Astrology? For that matter, What's so bad about palmistry, ouija boards, channelers, automatic writing, tarot cards, tea leaf readings? The Bible doesn't specifically say "no" to most of these things.
The problem comes from submitting to the advice of another, which means you are indirectly submitting to that person or thing.
In Genesis, how did Adam & Eve give Satan authority over the world? They didn't bow down before him and make a vow that he could have it. They didn't sell it to him. No, what gave him the world was that they submitted to his dishonest advice; they who owned the world submitted to Satan in this way. Satan uses the world through his servants.
There are other scriptures, but I don't have the time to go into it.
In all the occultic things listed above, you are receiving advice that is coming second-hand from a demon. That legally puts you in indirect submission to the demon. That act will stand until you renounce that submission, either in a general renunciation or in a specific renunciation. Thus the demons have what I call a 'back door' into your mind and emotions that remains open until you close it.
In this spiritually dirty world, you can't help but run across demonic advice like this. What do you do? Every morning, part of my prayers is "I renounce Satan and all his ways and advice. I submit to God through Jesus and all His ways and advice." That sorta pushes the reset button.
What if you HAVE to read something demonic? It doesn't hit unless you receive it. When I come across good sounding advice from questionable sources, I figuratively hand it up to God. If I receive peace, I receive it -- on God's advice! If I don't get peace, I learn it for the test -- and immediately throw it away after the test.
What if something is received emotionally? A good cut free prayer canbe found at: http://www.resurrectionjax.org/teachings/workfree.htm

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Timbo
What's so bad about Astrology? For that matter, What's so bad about palmistry, ouija boards, channelers, automatic writing, tarot cards, tea leaf readings?You mean, other than that they don't work and are a waste of time?

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Timbo

What's so bad about Astrology? For that matter, What's so bad about palmistry, ouija boards, channelers, automatic writing, tarot cards, tea leaf readings? The problem comes from submitting to the advice of another, which means you are indirectly submitting to that person or thing.

Excellent point! This is why you should not submit to the rules of your nation (because in so doing you are indirectly submitting to the impotent Alpha Male ruling class instead of Jesus), why you should not submit to the rules of your job or of society (because if you do, you're worshiping the false idol of public acceptance), why you should not submit to taxation or interest on loans or wages (because the Bible is thoroughly against that), and most importantly why you should not go to church (because the church is an abomination of the teachings of Christ).

[smothers]

Originally posted by Timbo
What's so bad about Astrology? For that matter, What's so bad about palmistry, ouija boards, channelers, automatic writing, tarot cards, tea leaf readings?

Astrology. channelling, palmistry, ouja boards are not in and of themselves evil; they are just ineffective tools used to find truth. They are as effective in finding it as Christian prayer, speaking in tounges, reading Revelations to see the future, hoping for miracles and worship services.

Early Christian and Jewish leaders were against them because they didn't want the competition.

[LightSon]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Excellent point! This is why you should not submit to the rules of your nation (because in so doing you are indirectly submitting to the impotent Alpha Male ruling class instead of Jesus), why you should not submit to the rules of your job or of society (because if you do, you're worshiping the false idol of public acceptance), why you should not submit to taxation or interest on loans or wages (because the Bible is thoroughly against that), and most importantly why you should not go to church (because the church is an abomination of the teachings of Christ).

Nietzschean,
I'm struggling here to separate your sarcasm from sincerity.

In my view, there are Biblical lines of authority which should be adhered to within the context of Godly wisdom. It seems that you are trying to pit Biblical principles one against another; this will be a frustration to the naive mind, not unlike being put in a round room and told to spit in the corner.

There are several people I submit to.

I submit to God.
I submit to government authority, as unto the Lord.
I submit to pastoral authority, as unto the Lord.
I submit to Spirit-led Christians, as unto the Lord.
I submit to my employer, as unto the Lord.

When I am properly surrendered to God, my heart is single, and any apparent conflicts of interest can be resolved with prayer and Spirit-led discernment.

Don't know if you were looking for a serious reply, but there it is nevertheless.

Regards.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by LightSon

Nietzschean,
I'm struggling here to separate your sarcasm from sincerity.
I wasn't being sarcastic. Melodramatic perhaps. Do you believe that?

In my view, there are Biblical lines of authority which should be adhered to within the context of Godly wisdom. It seems that you are trying to pit Biblical principles one against another; this will be a frustration to the naive mind, not unlike being put in a round room and told to spit in the corner.
Now why on earth would I be trying to confuse people.. :chuckle:

Don't know if you were looking for a serious reply, but there it is nevertheless.
I was, and thanks.

[Evee]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

I have to wonder sir, are you simply trying to discredit me? That's the only reason I can think of to rationalize your picking at what I've said, especially since you're choosing to nit-pick such totally irrelevant details that have nothing at all to do with the overall message of my posts.

Ouija boards are evil and just plain spooky!:angel:

[Granite]

I'd say (for me anyway) that ouija boards are silly. But probably not evil.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by granite1010

I'd say (for me anyway) that ouija boards are silly. But probably not evil. I'd concur.

Their principle of operation has been demonstrated in controlled lab situations. Unfortunately for "believers" there's nothing psychic or spiritual necessary. It's all explainable by human physiology.

:shrug:

[Nietzschean]

Oh frabjuous day!

I had forgotten all about this thread. This was the Golden Age of my chaos-spreading. I've been too busy lately to do much of this, but boy was it ever so much fun. Just reading this most recent page brings a swelling pitter-patter to the cockels of my heart. Maybe even the bottom of the heart, or beyond—perhaps somewhere int he sub-cockel area. Maybe the liver, perhaps the kidneys—we don't know.

And I would still like an answer to this post (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=479482#post479482).

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by OMEGA

A Ouija Board is a Tool - it CANNOT be used for good ONLY evil.

I beg to differ. Find me the evilest man in the world, and I'll bet you I can do some good by beating the evil out of him with an Ouija board. Or.. beat the good into him. Or something like that.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Zakath

I've won so far. But, in the end, we all lose to entropy. :chuckle:
Hail Eris!
All hail Discordia!

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Gerald

Is that one of those guys who's able to kick in solid oak doors and just laughs if you hit him or stab him, and when he's done doing his dirty work he walks unscathed through a hail a police gunfire, like the Terminator?

You really need to stop watching movies about Super Killers?; they don't reflect reality at all. :kookoo:
Yes. The Agencyâ„¢ is not at this very moment working on the SuperSoldier program.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Sealeaf

The thing itself can't be evil but can be an occasion of sin. The use of the board is sinful because it is an attempt at magic. That is if it is done with "seriousness". The ideomotor effect makes the talking board seem like it really works, this leads people to treat it seriously, and that is trying to preform real magic which is sinful.

I know of one case where a young girl played with a talking board and became convinced she was possessed. She was hospitalized for weeks at a top line psychiatric institution without a cure.

Don't take a chance on the things. Don't own one. Don't allow one in your home. Above all don't use one.

I like this post. It has just enough rationality to make it sound, while at the same time deferring to the Christian worldview. It's a very balanced post, if you look at it from a neutral perspective. Very similar to the way the Kerry/Edwards ticket looks balanced and promising to the democrats, just because it's not George W. Bush.