Christ was not a Christian

[Nietzschean]

It occured to me that by the nature of what it takes to be a saved Christian, Jesus Christ himself is very likely bound for Hell. Since being saved requires that one be a Christian - and specifically not a Jew, which Christ was - it is not readily possible that Christ could have been saved. Now it's quite possible that, seeing the logical impossibility of His own Son saving Himself, YHVH created a loophole that allowed Jesus to re-ascend into Heaven. But as it stands, recorded in the Bible, Jesus was not a gentile; he was raised a Jew in both religion and in nationality. Had he been any other man than the Son of God, he would be hellbound.

But somewhere else in the Bible, I remember reading that God is no respector of persons. Sounds to me like he paid a special respect to his own Son, and allowed him to cheat the laws that were being formed.

I welcome responses. :)

[jjjg]

The logic of that one blows me away Nietz.

[Nietzschean]

In a good way, in a "too far gone to care" way, or in a bad way? :chuckle:

[jjjg]

A Christian is one who believes Christ is the son of God. Are you saying Christ himself didn't say and believe this.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Nietzschean
Since being saved requires that one be a Christian - and specifically not a Jew,

since when can't you be a Jew and a Christian at the same time?

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Since when can't you be a Jew and a Christian at the same time?
The Bible makes a distinction between Jew and Gentile. When I say Jew, you must understand that I refer to the religion and not the heritage; it's entirely possible for one to be of Jewish descent and not of the Jewish faith, and that is not what I have in question here. I have no qualm with seeing a person of Jewish heritage calling himself a Christian; but Jews - as in the faith - do not accept that Christ was the messiah.

When Christ came to Earth, there was a schism among God's people. Some of them followed Christ, and they became the gentiles, the Christians, or whatever you want to call them. Others, the Jews, maintained that Christ was not the messiah and as such they didn't change their ways. To this day, Jews are waiting for the first coming of the messiah, while Christians are waiting for the second coming.

With all that said, Christianity simply did not exist during Christ's time. Whether he was able to ascend back into heaven as per the will of God is irrelevant at this point, as is whether or not he was in fact the Son of God. What is relevant is that he held himself to the Jewish principles of law and order; he obeyed laws that the Christians do not, he had a different way of doing things than either Jews or Christians do now.

One could not look at Jesus, place him beside a fundie, and say that they believe in the same things. Jesus was simply not a Christian, in the present-day view of the word and its ideology as a religion. Jesus was a Jew. He was, in fact, a heretical Jew. But he was not a Christian, if for no other reason because the term had not yet been invented.

Besides, how absurd is it to think of Christ as following Christ, which is what a Christian does?

[Kronus]

The distinction for those who have been baptized into Christ between Jew and Gentile is done away with:

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29 KJV)

The emphasis is not on our race, whether we are free, nor our gender, but whether or not we are in Christ.

Historically the predominance of Jews in the early Church is not questioned, nor the change toward including Gentiles, or non-Jews with the ministry of Paul the Apostle.

The making of Christianity into a religion instead of a life force has kept the distinction between Jew and Greek, between master and slave, between male and female alive though both inappropriate and invalid.

In Christ we are none of those, we are members of Him and of one another. God looks and sees if we are in His Son, in Christ, not at our racial heritage, our culture, nor whether we are male or female.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Kronus

The distinction for those who have been baptized into Christ between Jew and Gentile is done away with:

For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Galatians 3:26-29 KJV)

I fail to see how that has to do with the people who are not Baptized, and who are therefore not of Christ. Jews are not of Christ, as it were; they believe he was not the messiah and all that.

[novice]

This is the dumbest thread I have ever read.

Isn't it funny when someone exposes his ignorance so clearly?

[Nietzschean]

Yes it is indeed funny.
Keep it up, you put on a good show. :)

[Kronus]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

I fail to see how that has to do with the people who are not Baptized, and who are therefore not of Christ. Jews are not of Christ, as it were; they believe he was not the messiah and all that.

The issue is not baptized per se, but baptized into Christ. And there is all the difference in the world between the two statements. One is a religious ceremony that may or may not be attended by God for all its noble intent. The other is an immersion into the Son of the Living God and, therefore hardly limited or made real by a ceremony.

You said: "The Bible makes a distinction between Jew and Gentile."

I replied with a passage indicating God's desire for that to end with His Son.

You said: "Since being saved requires that one be a Christian - and specifically not a Jew, which Christ was - it is not readily possible that Christ could have been saved."

I replied with the same passage that indicates its not whether one is member of a religion, i.e. a "Christian," rather it is whether one is or is not in Christ that is important.

You may not see the connection, or may not want to see the connection, but the end game is still the same. Being "in Christ" is the issue.

[Nietzschean]

So what you're saying is that Christianity as we know it is a load of bunk?

[Kronus]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

So what you're saying is that Christianity as we know it is a load of bunk?

I am not saying that at all.

However, I will not deny that some of what we perceive, believe, and and act upon in what Christianity the religion has historically become is based more on tradition and less on Scripture, in both nature and application, than we would like to admit.

And I am not the one who said: "It occured to me that by the nature of what it takes to be a saved Christian, Jesus Christ himself is very likely bound for Hell."

[Cyrus of Persia]

Somebody has lot of time in their hand to make "useless" threads like this. Of course with the logic you have shown, Christ couldnt been christian. And what was your point of making the thread?

1) boredom
2) trying to play with logic
3) trying to find out how stupid people can be ;oP

[Lighthouse]

Of course Christ wasn't a Christian. He's Christ! Hello! How ignorant are you? Christian is just a name. All one really needs is to believe in Christ, as all that He is. Christ knows what He is. And yes, He was a Jew, but believers in Christ can be Jews. You don't have to be a gentile to be a Christian. The first people to be called by that name, were Jews.

[Firestarter]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Of course Christ wasn't a Christian. He's Christ! Hello! How ignorant are you? Christian is just a name. All one really needs is to believe in Christ, as all that He is. Christ knows what He is.

Amen.

Christian translates into "little messiah". Orginally a derogatory term used for believers of the Way, believers began to wear the name with honor. Christ cannot call himself a little version of Himself.

Erisian logic results in frutility, Nietzschean.

[Zimfan]

I think we may all be overlooking something important. We need Christ as our savior because we have sin that we need saved from. Christ never sinned and thus does not need a savior.

[Lucky]

Thread Title

Christ was not a Christian
I agree.

Originally posted by Nietzschean

It occured to me that by the nature of what it takes to be a saved Christian, Jesus Christ himself is very likely bound for Hell. Since being saved requires that one be a Christian - and specifically not a Jew, which Christ was - it is not readily possible that Christ could have been saved. Now it's quite possible that, seeing the logical impossibility of His own Son saving Himself, YHVH created a loophole that allowed Jesus to re-ascend into Heaven. But as it stands, recorded in the Bible, Jesus was not a gentile; he was raised a Jew in both religion and in nationality. Had he been any other man than the Son of God, he would be hellbound.

But somewhere else in the Bible, I remember reading that God is no respector of persons. Sounds to me like he paid a special respect to his own Son, and allowed him to cheat the laws that were being formed.

I welcome responses. :)
Why would a perfect person, one who has never sinned, need salvation? Let alone a perfect person who is also God! :hammer:

[Lighthouse]

Good point, Zimfan and Lucky.

[Zimfan]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Good point, Zimfan and Lucky.

:) Somebody had to make it! Nietzchean started with a faulty premise(That Christ needed saving) and I figured I should call him on it.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by Zimfan

:) Somebody had to make it! Nietzchean started with a faulty premise(That Christ needed saving) and I figured I should call him on it.

Yeah, after reading comments after my own comment i must say that i totally missed this faulty assumption he made :doh:

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Somebody has lot of time in their hand to make "useless" threads like this. Of course with the logic you have shown, Christ couldnt been christian. And what was your point of making the thread?

1) boredom
2) trying to play with logic
3) trying to find out how stupid people can be ;oP

D) All of the Above. ;)

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Of course Christ wasn't a Christian. He's Christ! Hello! How ignorant are you?

It amazes me how long it took for someone to come up with this come-back; which is of course the correct answer that I was hoping for. Kudos to you lighthouse for saying it first.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Yeah, after reading comments after my own comment i must say that i totally missed this faulty assumption he made :doh:

I'm slippery like that; still it was a fun show, wasn't it?

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Firestarter

Erisian logic results in frutility, Nietzschean.

If by frutility, you mean a fascination with the various means by which species of Kingdom Plantae wrap their seeds within protective - and usually edible - membranes, then you are correct. Erisian logic does tend to result in a fascination with fruits of all sorts, especially apples of the golden persuasion.

If, however, you meant to say "futility," then you made a typo. :)

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Zimfan

I think we may all be overlooking something important. We need Christ as our savior because we have sin that we need saved from. Christ never sinned and thus does not need a savior.

Lighthouse pointed out the first problem with my argument; Christ was Christ, and thus cannot be a Christian by default. That's like saying a King cannot be a member of his own Kingdom; the master cannot in title be his own servant. You came up with the next problem; a lack of need for salvation. But others have argued that Jesus Christ wasn't completely sin-free in other threads, so I'll only give you half a point.

On the "Nietz-o-Meter," lighthouse gets a 1 and Zimfan gets a 0.5 and thus lighthouse wins!

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

I'm slippery like that; still it was a fun show, wasn't it?

True. A bit time consuming, but kinda fun anyway :D

[Nietzschean]

Thanks! :D

[Ya'nar#1]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

It occured to me that by the nature of what it takes to be a saved Christian, Jesus Christ himself is very likely bound for Hell. Since being saved requires that one be a Christian - and specifically not a Jew, which Christ was - it is not readily possible that Christ could have been saved. Now it's quite possible that, seeing the logical impossibility of His own Son saving Himself, YHVH created a loophole that allowed Jesus to re-ascend into Heaven. But as it stands, recorded in the Bible, Jesus was not a gentile; he was raised a Jew in both religion and in nationality. Had he been any other man than the Son of God, he would be hellbound.

But somewhere else in the Bible, I remember reading that God is no respector of persons. Sounds to me like he paid a special respect to his own Son, and allowed him to cheat the laws that were being formed.

I welcome responses. :)


:kookoo:

Your examination of this fails on one major point: you assume the Jews of Christ's day observed the law according to the way God originally gave it. They didn't. One of Christ's messages to the people of his day was to warn of the "leaven" of the Pharisees. Their hypocrasy in saying they represented God when in fact they deliberately broke His law, which was designed to reveal the love and justice of God toward man, proves they were out of step with the type of Jewish economy God had given them.

Christ's example served to restore to the people the love that God had for them. His teachings showed how far the religious leaders were from representing the true love and mercy and justice God desired for them.

Christ WAS a Christian, but without the name. If you look at the total Biblical story from Genesis to Revelation, what you have is a continuing unfolding story of the plan of salvation: how God has continued to reveal Himself to man in ever-unfolding ways, until here we are at the end of time, just before the second coming, with virtually the whole story laid out for us (or, that part of God that is necessary to restore us to Himself).

Names and identities came along long after. What we all were, before we were Gentile and Jew, was a people that God created and who went terribly wrong. Just because God saw fit to separate a certain group and to designate them "chosen" doesn't mean He threw away the rest of humanity, like garbage out the window.

God always intended for the Jewish nation to be a representative of Him; to be a light on a hill, shinning out to heathren nations who were lost in idol worship, and who would recognize the blessings of God in this nation of Israel. Just because the Jews failed in that, doesn't mean God's plan was faulty, or that Jesus came with the wrong message.

Jesus had the RIGHT message; it was the Jews that had it wrong!

God Bless,

--Ya'nar