Is God the upholder of all things as well as the creator?

[helmet84]

"God is not only the creator but the upholder of all things (Heb. 1:3). In him we live, and move, and have our being. He not only bestowed upon men their faculties, but He gives them the ability to use them. He preserves those powers when they are employed in opposition to him, no less than when they are employed in his service."
-- PREDESTINATION and the SAINTS' PERSEVERANCE, STATED AND DEFENDED by Patrick Hues Mell

I'm interested to see what kind of discussion this will generate. I've met very few Christians that have thought deeply about God constantly preserving (or upholding) all of creation.

So discuss away!

BTW, I hate using the word 'debate'.

[helmet84]

Originally posted by helmet84
"He preserves those powers when they are employed in opposition to him, no less than when they are employed in his service."
-- PREDESTINATION and the SAINTS' PERSEVERANCE, STATED AND DEFENDED by Patrick Hues Mell


Moreoever, what are your thoughts on the above statement in particular?
-- helmet84

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by helmet84

Moreoever, what are your thoughts on the above statement in particular?
-- helmet84

i don't understand what it's saying.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

i don't understand what it's saying.

Me neither. Does he just states those sentences without explaining what he meant? If so, then maybe reading his books can maybe give some overall picture of his certain theology in that matter.

[helmet84]

"God is not only the creator but the upholder of all things (Heb. 1:3). In him we live, and move, and have our being. He not only bestowed upon men their faculties, but He gives them the ability to use them. He preserves those powers when they are employed in opposition to him, no less than when they are employed in his service."

You did see all this at the very top (above), right?

Here's the link, if you want more context . . .
http://www.founders.org/library/mell1/sect2.html

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by helmet84

"God is not only the creator but the upholder of all things (Heb. 1:3). In him we live, and move, and have our being. He not only bestowed upon men their faculties, but He gives them the ability to use them. He preserves those powers when they are employed in opposition to him, no less than when they are employed in his service."

You did see all this at the very top (above), right?

Here's the link, if you want more context . . .
http://www.founders.org/library/mell1/sect2.html

yes, i saw it but i wasn't sure what the point trying to be made was. kinda hard to agree or disagree with something when you don't know what is being said.

just like if someone said "4" and asked me "do you agree or disagree?" well, i don't understand his/her point so how can i agree or disagree?

as for that link, good night! that thing is LONG! :shocked:

perhaps it'd be easier if you could paraphrase what your OP said.

[Rolf Ernst]

Helmet 84--Jesus said, "all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..." to primarily, no doubt, encourage His followers to have full confidence in His ability to strengthen them and defend them as they went about fulfilling the great commission; but it goes far beyond that level to include ALL things.
As for preservation of the creation, Christ is "upholding all things by the word of His power," and "in Him, ALL things consist."
Heb. 1:3; Col.1:17. The word "consist" means to adhere, or maintain strength. The nature of the atom is such that it should, theoretically, fly apart; but it is bound together, its existence being maintained by a force which has puzzled many scientists. They have not identified the souce of that power, but they have conveniently given it a name, calling it (get this) a "gluon." Glue. Get it? Not that they have through the laboratory proven the science of it, but since they know by evidence such a force DOES exist, they give it a name so their ignorance does not appear naked before men. The Bible does better. It IDENTIFIES that power.
Paul taught as much to the athenians on Mars Hill--"...for in Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28 All these texts are teaching the real meaning of Christ's omnipotence--that His omnipotence is not a power which is at times idle but could, if He chose, perform any great feat of might which He pleased, no! But His omnipotence is an absolute, all encompassing power which continually energizes all of creation; apart from which there is neither life, power, motion, nor existence. How far wrong those are who think they have no need of Christ! Their very existence is CONTINUALLY dependent upon Him. Their refusal to acknowledge that fact and give unto Him the glory due Him for their preservation will one day be required of them.
"Oh that men would praise the LORD for His goodness and for His wonderful works to the children of men." Ps.107:8

[helmet84]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Helmet 84--Jesus said, "all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..." to primarily, no doubt, encourage His followers to have full confidence in His ability to strengthen them and defend them as they went about fulfilling the great commission; but it goes far beyond that level to include ALL things.
As for preservation of the creation, Christ is "upholding all things by the word of His power," and "in Him, ALL things consist."
Heb. 1:3; Col.1:17. The word "consist" means to adhere, or maintain strength. The nature of the atom is such that it should, theoretically, fly apart; but it is bound together, its existence being maintained by a force which has puzzled many scientists. They have not identified the souce of that power, but they have conveniently given it a name, calling it (get this) a "gluon." Glue. Get it? Not that they have through the laboratory proven the science of it, but since they know by evidence such a force DOES exist, they give it a name so their ignorance does not appear naked before men. The Bible does better. It IDENTIFIES that power.
Paul taught as much to the athenians on Mars Hill--"...for in Him we live and move and have our being." Acts 17:28 All these texts are teaching the real meaning of Christ's omnipotence--that His omnipotence is not a power which is at times idle but could, if He chose, perform any great feat of might which He pleased, no! But His omnipotence is an absolute, all encompassing power which continually energizes all of creation; apart from which there is neither life, power, motion, nor existence. How far wrong those are who think they have no need of Christ! Their very existence is CONTINUALLY dependent upon Him. Their refusal to acknowledge that fact and give unto Him the glory due Him for their preservation will one day be required of them.
"Oh that men would praise the LORD for His goodness and for His wonderful works to the children of men." Ps.107:8

Rolfe, you're talking right down my alley ;)

Here's some further elaboration by Mell:
1st. He upholds all things by the word of His power (Heb. 1:3). We suppose it susceptible of demonstration, were it necessary, that it requires as great an exertion of almighty power to preserve, as originally to have called into existence the universe; and that, if His upholding and sustaining power were removed, it would instantly fall back into the nothingness from whence it sprang. By Him, all inanimate matter, in the aggregate, and, therefore, in its minutest parts is preserved. In Him, the tallest Archangel and the most degraded descendant of Adam, live and move and have their being. "Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth with all things that are therein, the seas, end all that is therein, and thou preservest them all" (Neh. 9:6).

And again, the point I'm trying to make is that Christ preserves men and devils even when their efforts are employed against Him (i.e. the crucifixion). And the fact that He does so shows that He is absolutely sovereign over all. Even the actions of evil men and devils are completely in His control.

So even for those who view that God does not know all the future, or that if He does, He certainly doesn't 'decree' it, have a dilemma if they admit to the truth of Christ upholding all things by the word of His power.

-- helmet84

[Rolf Ernst]

Thanks, helmet 84, for quoting what Mel said. I had not read him before. He is sharp, and speaks the truth clearly. Treasure the faith God has given you concerning His sovereignty. Be grateful and bless His holy name, remembering that "a man can receive nothing except it be given him from heaven." Remember the time when Jesus said (in response to Simon saying that Jesus was the Son of the living god.)
"Blessed art thou Simon Barjonah! Flesh and blood has not revealed it unto you, but my Father who is in heaven." Yes, remember that also, Helmet 84, and again,----"be ye thankful!"

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

i don't understand what it's saying.

Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

Me neither. Does he just states those sentences without explaining what he meant? If so, then maybe reading his books can maybe give some overall picture of his certain theology in that matter.

Possibly because it doesn't fit into your theology...

Job 38:36
Who has put wisdom in the mind? Or who has given understanding to the heart?

God has.

God upholds all things ultimately to glorify Him. Its all about Him. Our faith, salvation, knowledge, and all other things are held together by Him. How can one deny God's sovereignty?

[Zakath]

I think it raises serious questions that you believe that your deity supports evil and those who perpetrate it.

[helmet84]

Originally posted by Zakath

I think it raises serious questions that you believe that your deity supports evil and those who perpetrate it.


If by "support" you mean "approves of" then you are drawing a false conclusion. But if by "support" you mean "decree" or "permit", then yes, the Bible very clearly teaches that The Lord "decrees" (and/or permits) evil and those who perpetrate it.

A pertinent question would be, can God be "predestinate" evil and those who perpetrate it, without approving of evil or those who perpetrate it? And again, the biblical answer is yes.

I do appreciate your input.

-- helmet84

[Swordsman]

Originally posted by Zakath

I think it raises serious questions that you believe that your deity supports evil and those who perpetrate it.

Interesting....... So then how does He even allow evil to exist in this world? Did God create Satan?

Proverbs 16:4 says
4The LORD has made all for Himself, yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

All things were created for His glory and His purpose.

Revelation 4:11 says:
You are worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and by Your will they exist and were created.

[helmet84]

Originally posted by helmet84

If by "support" you mean "approves of" then you are drawing a false conclusion. But if by "support" you mean "decree" or "permit", then yes, the Bible very clearly teaches that The Lord "decrees" (and/or permits) evil and those who perpetrate it.

A pertinent question would be, can God "predestinate" or permit evil and those who perpetrate it, without approving of evil or those who perpetrate it? And again, the biblical answer is yes.

I do appreciate your input.

-- helmet84

Fixed some typos. Sorry. :chuckle:

[Zakath]

Well, the OT does say that YHWH created evil... :think:

The argument presented is not only did he create, but he nurtures and sustains it as well.

What does that say about the nature of good and evil, or at least human understanding of the concepts?

[helmet84]

Originally posted by Zakath

Well, the OT does say that YHWH created evil... :think:

The argument presented is not only did he create, but he nurtures and sustains it as well.

What does that say about the nature of good and evil, or at least human understanding of the concepts?

Ahh... Now you are paying attention, aren't you? That is one of the reasons I bring this thread up. Many do believe that God 'permits' (and/or Predestinates) evil and the perpetrators thereof, but when you really think things out, at least along biblical lines, you realized that everything is being upheld by God also.

So indeed there is a seeming dilemma, and I do not claim to have an answer as to how the Lord can be the sustainer of all things and not approve the evil that transpires. Surely it is beyond our comprehension.

Nevertheless, I do believe both: that He is the sustainer of all things (animate and inanimate) and yet, does not approve of evil -- in fact, He hates it and condemns it, and will also punish the perpetrators. And even for His own elect, sin does not go unpunished, but He sacrifices His own Son, who willingly gives Himself.

And all of this is foolishness to the 'natural' man -- the man without the Spirit of God indwelling Him. How can I believe such contradictory nonsense, you might ask? Because the Lord has revealed Himself to me personally (as He does to every true believer), and I trust Him, even if I cannot understand how these things reconcile. As the scripture says, "yeah let God be true, but everyman a liar."

-- helmet84

[Rolf Ernst]

The theodicy "problem," the fact that God is both infinitely good and also sovereign and yet "evils" occur is not, in truth, a problem at all.
First, men begin to think they see a problem when in reality they do not give proper consideration to the fact that "as the heavens are high above the earth" so God's ways are above our ways, and His thoughts are above our thoughts. For men so limited to think that they have within themselves the ability to search the depths of God's ways and weigh His counsel--well, we might think that is a mite arrogant.

Secondly, men seldom give full regard to the consequences of sin. How can a man understand God's ways or subject Him to the judgment of his own thoughts when that man has not even reconciled himself to the fact of God's right to exercise justice against transgressors, or when that man is ignorant of the ways in which God exercises that judgment ? The man who does not really understand God's justice in "the wages of sin" being "death" could never be expected to understand the death of all but eight during the flood, or any other display of the wrath which destroys--"our God is a consuming fire." Far from being able to comprehend the way of God in His justice, such a man is capable only of wailing, "If God is so good, and if God is so powerful, then why...?!"

Shall God withold His due vengeance lest such a man be angered, or upset? Would the thought that such a man might fault Him for His judgment deter the execution of some due vengeance? "Vengeance is mine, says the LORD. I will repay." Or can such a man even dare attempt to search out God's motives? His ways are unsearchable. Perhaps what men look upon as vengeance against an evil done may, in reality, only be God testing His beloved servant to prove that servant's faithfulness
under some fiery trial, as happened with Job, or as spoken of by Peter--"...your faith, much more precious than gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, may be found unto praise and honor and glory..." 1 Pet.1:7

Thirdly, motivation is all important. Whatever men see as evil
and rail against, though it be done through the instrumentality of wicked men, falls out according to God's providence, which is the outworking of His decree. What wicked men intend as evil, God intends as, and does work out as, good. There are a vast host of such occurences in Scripture.

In short, the problem of theodicy is only illusory. In truth, it does not exist. It is only imagined by men who do not understand God's ways and are more ready to call God to account than to say with Job, "the LORD has given and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."

After seven times had passed over Nebuchanezzar--not until then--he was willing to say, "he does according to His will in the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and no one can stay His hand or say unto Him, 'what are you doing?' "

Let us all gain from him the knowledge which Nebuchadnezzar had to serve time for in the pasture with the beasts of the earth.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by helmet84

Ahh... Now you are paying attention, aren't you?I'm wounded. :cry:

I always pay attention. It's just that some topics (and individual posts) are so irrelevant or ridiculous that I don't reply. :D

That is one of the reasons I bring this thread up. Many do believe that God 'permits' (and/or Predestinates) evil and the perpetrators thereof, but when you really think things out, at least along biblical lines, you realized that everything is being upheld by God also. OK.

So indeed there is a seeming dilemma, and I do not claim to have an answer as to how the Lord can be the sustainer of all things and not approve the evil that transpires. Surely it is beyond our comprehension.Possibly. It could also be, if one is not a scriptural interrantist, that the authors got it wrong.

Nevertheless, I do believe both: that He is the sustainer of all things (animate and inanimate) and yet, does not approve of evil -- in fact, He hates it and condemns it, and will also punish the perpetrators. And even for His own elect, sin does not go unpunished, but He sacrifices His own Son, who willingly gives Himself.That is an internally contradictory position. When a human being does such a thing we call them "conflicted" or possibly even "schizophrenic".

And all of this is foolishness...Yes, we agree on this much. :chuckle:

How can I believe such contradictory nonsense, you might ask? Because the Lord has revealed Himself to me personally (as He does to every true believer), and I trust Him, even if I cannot understand how these things reconcile. As the scripture says, "yeah let God be true, but everyman a liar."OK. So you've seen the big guy, eh? What's he look like? Do you chat with him often? Who's he backing for the NCAA March Madness?

[Rolf Ernst]

Zakath--Who is He backing during the NCAA March madness? I guess we will know that after it is finished. Easy question, easy answer.

[helmet84]

Thirdly, motivation is all important. Whatever men see as evil
and rail against, though it be done through the instrumentality of wicked men, falls out according to God's providence, which is the outworking of His decree. What wicked men intend as evil, God intends as, and does work out as, good. There are a vast host of such occurences in Scripture.

I didn't mention this above because I didn't think of it at the time, but I am well aware of this and agree with you totally. Allow me to quote again from Mell, because he also stated this so well:

" It follows from the above that if God knows that any thing will result in infinite good (as the wicked crucifixion of Christ, for instance), it is not unworthy in Him to decree that it should occur; on the contrary, it is infinitely worthy in Him to do so. Calvinists, therefore, divide the will of God into secret and revealed -- the revealed to govern His creatures, the secret to govern Himself; and the latter will be attained, whether men regard or disregard the former. But here two other objections are started. 1st. "Does not this imply an inconsistency in God; as His secret will is sometimes one thing, and His revealed another?" and 2nd. "Is this not saying that God does evil, that good may come?"

1st. To the first, we answer that God's revealed will is always consistent with itself, and His secret will is always consistent with itself. The former is given in His precepts, and all the commands, warning, threatening, persuasions, &c, are consistent therewith. He never commands anything without sincerely requiring it; and, having commanded it. He never authorizes anything that conflicts with it. His revealed and His secret will have reference to objects that are entirely distinct, and cannot, therefore, be compared together. Thus, as we have shown, His revealed will may be entirely opposed to the violence offered to the Saviour and to the motives and feelings that influenced the Jews in that transaction; and yet His secret will, having another object in view, decreed that event in order that the glorious blessings and results that flow from the atonement of Christ might be secured.

2nd. "Is this not saying that God does evil that good may come?"

God is not the doer of evil -- the most that can be said, therefore, is that He permits evil that good may come. Substitute, therefore, for the word `does', the word `permits', and the question will stand: "Does God permit evil that good may come?" That He does permit evil is indisputable. Only three suppositions, therefore, can be made in the case: Either He permits it without any objection in view and for no reason at all; or He permits it that evil may come; or He permits it that good may come. The first, if we understand them, is the Arminian view (and the Open View -- helmet84); but which is the most honoring to God? Let the reader judge."
PREDESTINATION and the SAINTS' PERSEVERANCE, STATED AND DEFENDED -- Patrick Hues Mell

[helmet84]

In short, the problem of theodicy is only illusory. In truth, it does not exist. It is only imagined by men who do not understand God's ways and are more ready to call God to account than to say with Job, "the LORD has given and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD."

After seven times had passed over Nebuchanezzar--not until then--he was willing to say, "he does according to His will in the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and no one can stay His hand or say unto Him, 'what are you doing?' "

Let us all gain from him the knowledge which Nebuchadnezzar had to serve time for in the pasture with the beasts of the earth.


Amen and amen.
-- helmet84

[helmet84]

That is an internally contradictory position. When a human being does such a thing we call them "conflicted" or possibly even "schizophrenic".
Nevertheless, this is the teaching of scripture. And yes, I know you're an atheist.



OK. So you've seen the big guy, eh? What's he look like? Do you chat with him often? Who's he backing for the NCAA March Madness?
No I have not seen Him. :nono:
As I understand it, no man has yet, except Jesus Christ. And yes, I do speak with Him often.

I know some say never quote scripture to an atheist, but . . . oh well :chuckle:



And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

[Rolf Ernst]

Helmet 84--concerning Zakath's presence on the forum with us--
it reminds me of one of the proverbs: "as iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."

[helmet84]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Helmet 84--concerning Zakath's presence on the forum with us--
it reminds me of one of the proverbs: "as iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens the countenance of his friend."

Do you mean him sharpening me, or vice versa?
-- helmet84