How did ancient Israel "know" God?

[cur_deus_homo]

Curiously enough, this spins off from a thread about evolution:

When I was addressing tseeker, I said:

"And, besides, where did you get this idea that one of the purposes of the Bible is to "compete" with scientific theories like evolution? The Hebrew Bible is a theological narrative of the people of Israel being called out of paganism and foreign oppression to worship the one and only God."

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

Let me ask you something. How did the people of Israel know about the one true God? Did they just make Him up, or did He reveal Himself to them in some fashion? Or does it even make any difference to you?

When we use a phrase like "the people of Israel" we have to define just who are the people we mean by that phrase. In the context of my remark I hope it was clear that I meant the rather variegated group of people that claim descent from Jacob, namely the people that came from Egypt in the exodus, entered Canaan, established a fragile united kingdom under Saul, David, and Solomon and then later split into the two main kingdoms of Israel and Judah. This is a complex history, and even the Bible itself testifies to the inter-marriages of the "Hebrews" and their descendants with their "non-Hebrew" neighbors. So let's not think naively that the people of Israel were some kind of homogenous group called by God to show all the "pagan" peoples that they were worshipping false gods and that they, Israel, had the one true God. If we keep this in mind we will not shy away from the reality of so-called pagan influence on the religio-cultural milieu of ancient Israel.

How did the people of Israel know about the one true God?

That's a loaded question and a vague one at that. Truth be told, the overwhelming majority of the people of ancient Israel probably had no concept of there being one and only one God in the way that you and I conceive of God today.

Did they just make Him up, or did He reveal Himself to them in some fashion?

False dichotomy.

You mean the idea of pure monotheism? Or the idea that God is really just a Feuerbachian/Freudian projection of self? Religious concepts don't just get "made up," they gradually take shape, sometimes slowly, sometimes explosively like Christianity. But even the example of Christianity depends heavily on its Judeo-religious background, of course.

Yes, I believe that God reveals himself to everyone in some way, shape, or form. And since I hold to this view I must admit that God's revelation is not scientifically testable, when did/does it happen and when did/did not it happen. Revelation is always happening to everyone, everywhere. Even if God "withholds" his Spirit from someone that is still, in some sense, God revealing himself to that person, that is he reveals his "withdrawl." It's difficult to pin down with words, mind you, but you get the idea, I hope.

Do I think God's revelation finds special particularity and pre-eminent "power" in the Bible? Yes, certainly. And that's why we need to do our best to understand as much as we can the nature and meaning of the Bible because to misunderstand it and to misuse it can lead to some very dangerous outcomes.

Or does it even make any difference to you?

That should seem obvious now.

[smaller]

God's Word is without LIMITs as HE is ETERNAL.

When the FINITE picks up the INFINITE strange things happen eh?

[Duder]

CDH -

That was a most insightful post, and my spirit agrees with most of what you said.

my one question is, if "God's revelation finds special particularity and pre-eminent 'power' in the Bible", might it also find special particularity and pre-eminent power in the Tao Te Ching, in the Upanishads or in the the Sutras?

PM me if it's a little too sensative.

[Ya'nar#1]

How did the people of Israel know of God?

He walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden . . .

He communicated with Enoch, before the Flood . . .

He instructed righteous Noah to build an ark . . .

He talked with Abraham, and called him out to be a separate people because of Abraham's faith . . .

He blessed Jacob with twelve sons, who became the fathers of the twelve tribes of Israel . . .

Shall I go on?

Better still, if you really want to understand God's marvellous and loving works on the earth BEFORE the time of Christ, you can read about it in the Bible.

I recommend the New International Version for beginners.

God Bless!

--Ya'nar

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by Duder

my one question is, if "God's revelation finds special particularity and pre-eminent 'power' in the Bible", might it also find special particularity and pre-eminent power in the Tao Te Ching, in the Upanishads or in the the Sutras?

I'm kind of an "old-school" liberal on "revelation" in other religions. Yes, I think God's glory and grace is so pervasive that it will not be contained in the box of evangelical Christianity or even Christendom in general. Is God's grace and glory "coherent" and "consistent" in and of itself? Yes. Do the wildly varying human communities throughout history and the present day have different and even contradictory understandings of the "ultimate," the "one," the "many," the "transcendent?" Yes, this is because the greater good of human freedom, which is a gift from God (admittedly Christian langauge), makes it possible for humans to impart meaning to "God's" grace and glory. These very differences are what renders love meaningful. If we were all exactly like everyone else and understood the "one" unified or diverse reality in exactly the same way, then how would we "know" anything at all? and how would "love" have any meaning when all love would essentially be self-love?

When I say "God's revelation finds special particularity and pre-eminent 'power' in the Bible" I mean that from a Christian point of view. Buddhists and Hindus certainly have a different take on the Bible and their own respective sources of religious authority.

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by Ya'nar#1

How did the people of Israel know of God?

He walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden . . .

He communicated with Enoch, before the Flood . . .

He instructed righteous Noah to build an ark . . .

He talked with Abraham, and called him out to be a separate people because of Abraham's faith . . .

And the people of Israel, hundreds of years later, "knew" God because he had direct contact with the individuals you list?

Heck, the Israelites couldn't even remember who God was when he had just delivered them from Egypt (Ex 32:8)

"They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, 'These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.'"

The forefathers of the Israelites even worhsipped other gods (Josh 24:14-15)

"Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD."

Even if one concedes that God directly and literally communicated with certain individuals that does not mean that the ancient Israelites "knew" God in the same way.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by cur_deus_homo
(snip)
Even if one concedes that God directly and literally communicated with certain individuals that does not mean that the ancient Israelites "knew" God in the same way.


When you say "know God" I am wondering if we are taking into account God's ability to exist beyond human conception. The (for lack of better term) Infiniteness of YHVH vs. the finiteness of humanity.

Israel (the people) had reason to believe upon El, Yah, YHVH. There are many instances when beliefs of other people merged with the traditions of the Israelites but the prophets brought (time and again) warnings unto the people to return unto YHVH, the True God of Israel. Mostly the prophets are screaming and warning Israel to repent and turn unto their God, turning away from all the corruptions of the peoples around Israel which many fell into (even Solomon in his later years).

That Israel fell away from God does not necessarily mean that they did not know of God. Which is what any human can say, they know OF God. No human can claim to know God, for God is Infinite. In trying to claim that they (as a finite human) "know" God they have just made God a finite concept which fits into their finite mind, they have a non-god god. A false god.

While humanity cannot know God, they can know OF God, and what their God requires of them, for this reason the Tanakh was given unto Israel that they may know of their God...

Let me give you an example of knowing of God vs knowing God.

Rome's mystery religion includes the trinity which is an unexplained blasphemy to the God of Israel. Christianity teaches they know their god....all the while, they know of Israel's God and if they were to expand their learning they would see that the Torah's laws directly and without equivocation outlaw all forms of human vicarious atonement.

In such a manner, we have the majority of Christianity being much like that of Israel in the days when the prophets' words were not well known, in other words, they know of the God of Isreal but are following the false teachings of a false church, because they have never found reason to research their particular take on God and are willing to follow the corruption of Persian dualism over that of the One True God of Israel.

But again, we as humans know of God, none of us know God. For knowing is something a finite cannot do with an Infinite.

[cur_deus_homo]

Amen, Joseph.

And that's why Jesus came ... so we could "know" God and not just know "of" God.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by cur_deus_homo

Amen, Joseph.

And that's why Jesus came ... so we could "know" God and not just know "of" God.


Maybe you don't get it yet.

You cannot (as a finite limited in knowledge human) grasp and know all that God is by definition.

Your argument that the man Yehshua of Nazareth gave you the ability to "know" the Infinite is self delusional at best. Emotional context to a given subject is meaningless. No matter how emotionally tied to your mangod you are, you should read the stories of the false prophets of BAAL and how they danced around the altar.

You know of the God of Israel, and it would behoove you to research the godman of Rome indepth.

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

You cannot (as a finite limited in knowledge human) grasp and know all that God is by definition.
Of course not. No one of "us" can "know" God fully in his essence. But the "mangod," as you call him, can and does know God fully, and we "know" that person through faith. Do I "know" Jesus totally and completely? No. That's what faith is for.

Pick a loved one. Do you "know" that person completely and totally? No, of course not. We don't even know ourselves completely and totally. But that doesn't mean that I can't have a meaningful and deep relationship with that person. The same applies to Jesus.

Is Christology perfectly coherent and crystal clear and full of scientific rationality? No, again, of course not. The doctrine of the trinity is what it is. There's something deeply humbling about conceiving of God in paradox. You have your immanent/transcendent paradox; I have my trinity. I see little difference in their ability to humble us before God.