Nicer than God!

[Clete]

There are those of you that think people like me are too harsh, that I and others like me should be nicer.
Well I say noway Jack!
When I am not harsh or abusive it is not without cause or for frivolous reasons but is measured and intentional. Not that I am incapable of making mistakes but for the most part I say what mean and say it in a particular way for a reason. But for some this sort of thinking just will not do and it is for those that I post the following article by Bob Enyart.
It is posted in its entirety on Enyart.com (http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/nicer.shtml).




Nicer Than God


Christians today are nicer than God.

Or at least they are trying to be so. In the Church there is a standard of niceness that Jesus failed to reach while on earth. Comparing God’s attitude and behavior with that of the Church today shows that believers are far more polite, tolerant, understanding and respectful to the wicked than God is.

The Church is also less offensive, rude and sarcastic than God’s men in the Bible were. And no Christian would ever be caught dead mocking the wicked, as God’s men in the Bible sometimes did.

Bob Enyart Live is an occasionally harsh, always confrontational, news-talk show. The program does not cater to what Christians expect, but to what non-Christians will listen to. And it turns out that non-Christians will listen to straight talk, including appropriate harshness and offensiveness. Yes, sometimes the show is intentionally offensive. But then, so was Jesus.

Jesus was offensive. Most people were offended by him. The proof for John the Baptist that Jesus was the Christ was that the blind see, the lame walk and the majority are "offended" by Him (Mat. 11:2-19). As Jesus said, "Blessed is he who is not offended because of Me" (Mat. 11:6; Luke 7:23). In Galilee, Jesus did not plead with his neighbors to understand Him when "they were offended at Him" (Mat. 13:57; Mark 6:3). If unbelievers are offended, so be it (cf. Luke 14:3-4; John 5:8-16). "Shake off the dust from your feet" (Mat. 10:14). But alas, that is no longer a Christian attitude.

Christ’s apostles asked Him, "Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard [Your] saying?" (Mat. 15:12). What is the accepted Christian response today after an offense is taken? Quick, apologize! Ask for forgiveness! Tell them you are sorry. How did Jesus respond? He said to ignore the complaints of the unbelievers: "Let them alone. They are blind," (Mat. 15:14). Today, many Christians condemn Christ’s attitude as unloving.

Jesus promised his followers, "you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended" (Mat. 24:9-10). When a Canadian started his call with a vicious, "Bob, I hate you..." The immediate and (super-) natural response was "Cool. Great! Because Jesus taught that ‘if they hated Me, they will hate you’" (see John 15:18-19; 17:14; Mat. 10:22; Luke 21:17). Today Christians think if the world hates them, they have failed. The reverse should be true. It is not that a Christian wants to be hated; it is simply an occupational hazard.

Jesus is the Rock. Most believers are unaware, however, that Jesus used this metaphor to issue a graphic threat against the unrepentant. For Christ said that on whom that Rock "falls, it will grind him to powder" (Mat. 21:44; Luke 20:18). Even the Father said that the Son is the "rock of offense" (Isa. 8:14; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8). Offending unbelievers is Christlike in the deepest sense.

God utterly forbid drinking blood (Lev. 3:17; 17:14). Israelites, from priests, to Pharisees, to average citizens, were at least superficially obsessed with "keeping the law." Thus when Jesus said whoever "drinks My blood has eternal life," (John 6:54) He was being extremely offensive, and intentionally so. Further, He made no effort whatsoever to clarify Himself. Rather, He let the offense work its ministry. Jesus knew He even offended His own followers. As He said to "His disciples" immediately afterward, "does this offend you?" (John 6:61).

Bob Enyart Live ‘turns off’ some believers, but more non-believers ‘turn it on’ than any other Christian show in a recent Nielsen ratings report. Why are so many folks, including unbelievers, tuning in to a show that some have called rude? Perhaps it is because the loving but mushy, "Brother, bless you for calling," is missing from the program. Many Christians expect that approach, which is an absolute turn off to 95% of the population. That surely is one reason heathens do not listen to Christians. There is only so much niceness a person can stand. And all along, everyone thought the unbelievers were tuning out because they were unspiritual. But it turns out that many tune out Christians because we are unspiritual, or overly spiritual.

Nielsen TV ratings for July 1996 show that Bob Enyart Live is able to draw a larger audience than NBC’s Conan O’Brien on at least a couple nights each week. Nielsen compiled this data from the Notre Dame TV market in South Bend, Indiana which is one of the top 100 markets in America. At times, the program also outperformed Tom Snyder on CBS. The show also did well against Entertainment Tonight and Fox’s Northern Exposure and Married with Children, and it blew away Masterpiece Theater on PBS.

Being rough with the wicked does not automatically turn off unbelievers. An Indianapolis Star columnist, Steve Hall, wrote (Dec. 1, 1994): "But he’s cheerful. Oddly, despite the rigidity of his views, Enyart does not come across as a dour, puritanical type." A harsh style is difficult for more sensitive Christians to appreciate. However the biblical approach to communicating with the world includes not only compassion, but harshness as well.

The Bible sometimes ministers through ridicule, humor, sarcasm and even mocking. For example, God mocked the Midianites when He defeated them after sending a nightmare to them that they were being attacked by a loaf of bread (Jud. 7:13-14). Elijah, just prior to executing 450 prophets of Baal, "mocked them" as the Bible says, telling them to yell louder to their god so that Baal could hear their prayers since he was either on a trip, sleeping or in the restroom (Hebrew, "private place," 1 Ki. 18:27; and 2 Ki. 6:8-20).

When the Ad Council airs anti-drug public service announcements (PSAs) that mock "pot heads on Jeopardy" who cannot even remember their names, they are not motivated out of hatred, but out of love. Ridicule can and does save lives. "Why do you think they call it dope?" Ad Council spots run on Christian stations and get no criticism for being unloving or unkind. Why is it that Christians never rise up against the effort to stigmatize drug users? If a pagan brings peer pressure against "pot heads," that is accepted. Let a believer, however, use mockery to stigmatize fornication or sodomy, and the Church rises in condemnation. God, however, does not condemn those who "rebuke the wicked" (see Prov. 24:25).

God mocked Jeroboam, who "stretched out his hand from the altar" and ordered the prophet arrested. "Then his hand, which he stretched out toward him, withered, so that he could not pull it back to himself" (1 Ki. 13:4). God mocked the Philistines when they found Dagon their god "fallen on its face before the ark of the Lord. So they took Dagon and set it in its place again" (1 Sam. 5:3). The next morning they found Dagon toppled again, but this time he had lost his head (1 Sam. 5:4). God mocked the idolaters who cut down a branch, and with half of it they make a god to worship and with the other half, they make a fire to cook lunch (Is. 44:14-17). Another carves an idol of stone and says to it "wake up" (Hab. 2:18-19).

When a harsh word is needed God uses a harsh word. This is true in the Old and New Testaments. Herod beheaded John the Baptist for "rebuking" the king for "all the evils which Herod had done" (Luke 3:19) and for condemning the tetrarch for incestuous adultery (Mat. 14:3-4; Mark 6:17-18; Lev. 18:16; 20:21) with "Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife" (Luke 3:19). Jesus warned of "the leaven of Herod" (Mark 8:15). When notified that "Herod wants to kill You," (Luke 13:31), Christ responded without respect, "Go, tell that fox, ‘I cast out demons’…" (Luke 13:32).

The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).

Gentiles (as symbols of the godless) and sodomites are called "dogs" in the Bible (Mat. 7:6; 15:26; Deut. 23:17-18; Ps. 22:16; 59:5-6; Phil. 3:2; Rev. 22:15). And Jesus was harsh (not only to the Pharisees, as some believers wrongly assume but) to all the unrepentant (see His use of "hypocrite"). Jesus instructs Christians to not "cast your pearls before swine" (Mat. 7:6). Yet the silly dilemma now is, "Who could Christ possibly have meant by that, for we are too loving, tolerant, polite and respectful to refer to any human being by that mean-spirited term."

In the King James Version, the seductive women among the people of God are worse than "whores" (Ezek. 16:33). That crude term appears in the Bible dozens of times. The men who use those women are "whoremongers" (1 Tim. 1:10; Heb. 13:4; Rev. 21:8; 22:15), which is the most raw term in the English language to describe promiscuous men. God describes other sinners in terms of filthy excrement (Isa. 64:6) and even worse (2 Ki. 18:27; Isa. 36:12). Sinners truly are repulsive, regardless of how men may try to sanitize them.

The Bible does not say, "Hate the sin, love the sinner." It says, "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" (Prov. 23:7). And that God hates "all workers of iniquity" (Ps 5:5). "The Lord abhors the bloodthirsty and deceitful man" (Ps 5:6). Also "the wicked and the one who loves violence [God] hates." (Ps 11:5). Further, "The face of the Lord is against those who do evil" (Ps 34:16). God "loves righteousness and hate[s] wickedness (Ps. 45:7).

There are six things "the Lord hates," including "a heart that devises wicked plans… a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren" (Prov. 6:16-19). And God reminds us "All their wickedness is in Gilgal, for there I hated them. Because of the evil of their deeds I will drive them from My house; I will love them no more" (Ho 9:13). As Moses wrote of God, "if you do not obey Me... My soul shall abhor you" (Lev. 26:27-30).

Even in the New Testament, Paul wrote, "Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil" (Rom. 12:9) introducing the concept of hypocritical love. What is hypocritical love? "Should you… love those who hate the Lord? Therefore the wrath of the Lord is upon you" (2 Chr. 19:2). Warning the wicked of the coming judgment is harsh, but is a necessary component of acceptable love. A love that is not hypocritical rebukes and condemns, and then points the way to God.

God uses different methods to communicate the Gospel to people at different depths of depravity. At times, a Christian can pray with an unbeliever. At other times, a believer might ridicule the unrepentant in hopes of waking him up. Painful communication though is in no way reserved just for non-Christians.

Paul uses dripping sarcasm telling the Corinthians that they do not need his counsel because they are full, rich, wise, strong and distinguished. They are even like kings, and all that without Paul’s help (1 Cor. 4:8, 10). Sarcasm stigmatizes destructive behavior and prods people toward righteousness (1 Cor. 4:14). Paul also fell short of today’s compassionate Christianity when he wrote that the government should minister terror, wrath and vengeance against the evildoer and that the sword should be used against them (Rom. 13:3-4). The Apostle also erred by today’s standards calling unbelievers fools (Rom. 1:22) and the Galatians fools (Gal. 3:1, 3). Incidentally, Jesus also called men fools (Mat. 23:17, 19; 25:2-8; Luke 11:40; 12:20) when appropriate but never "without a cause" (Mat. 5:22) according to His teaching. As King David wrote, "The fool has said in his heart, ‘There is no God.’" (Ps. 53:1). Thus, atheists are fools and it is cruel to withhold this knowledge from them.

Christians enjoy quoting, "No weapon formed against you shall prosper." However many shudder at the rest of the verse. For thus says the Lord, "Every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn" (Isa. 54:17). Jesus taught that human beings will condemn the wicked. "The men of Nineveh will rise in the judgment with this generation and condemn it" (Mat. 12:41). Jesus said, "For God so loved the world." Then two verses later He added, "but he who does not believe is condemned already" (John 3:18). By today’s Christian standard, no unbeliever would know that he is condemned, because most believers will not communicate this vital truth. John 3:16 is nice. John 3:18 is not nice.

Some have called Bob Enyart Live rude. Jesus was rude. He was asked a question that goes to the very heart of His ministry. "Who gave you this authority?" (Mat. 21:23). Within the answer to that question lies eternal life, yet Christ was not inclined to answer them. Rather, He asked them a question, which they failed to answer (Mat. 21:24-27). Therefore He said to them that neither would He answer their question (Mat. 21:27; see also Luke 22:67 and John 12:34-36).

When people misunderstood Jesus He often made no effort to explain Himself. Quite to the contrary, He often purposely let His hearers misconstrue His words (John 2:18-22). Jesus let people walk away in unbelief without running after them. The Bible does not record Him as saying, "I’m sorry, did you misunderstand me?" He is the "stumbling block," and if men wanted to stumble, He let them. For those who want to hang themselves, He invites them (Rev. 22:11). Jesus made the rope available. He is that rope (Rom. 9:33).

Jesus was a man, not a girl. Christianity today has been emasculated. Men and women are different and they communicate differently. Women are softer and nicer than men, and thank God that they are. However, men are not supposed to be women. Today, Christian ministers are expected to behave like women. That foolishness is a death sentence for many unbelievers. Strength, confidence, conviction and tough love appeal to those who are searching. Thus Jesus is a beacon to real seekers. But for those wanting to get lost, Christ is like a street sign that has been reversed by a troublemaker.

Today we are way nicer than God. It is tragic. This spiritual plateau that the Church has reached conveniently reduces the chances for confrontation. Nice people rarely rebuke, judge, confront, accuse or condemn. Nice people have less stress. It seems the only ones that Christians are quick to judge and condemn are fellow believers who judge and condemn the wicked. Go figure.

[Lucky]

We should be nice to everyone at all times. :cloud9:

j/k

[Clete]

Originally posted by Lucky

We should be nice to everyone at all times. :cloud9:

j/k

That's a VERY nice signature you have there! :chuckle:

[Nietzschean]

I seem to recall a certain long-haired pacifist saying "this is my commandment, love eachother." :think:

[Clete]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

I seem to recall a certain long-haired pacifist saying "this is my commandment, love eachother." :think:

What is the most loving thing you can say to a homo?

You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!


Or something along those lines.

And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[beanieboy]

What is the most loving thing you can do to a person who does not believe in God?

Drown them. Yeah. Like The Cell.

That's what God did. And we want to be God-like, don't we?

It's illogical.

And you are hated so you have a closer walk with God?
Hitler is hated.
Pol Pot is hated.
John Wayne Gacy is hated.

Are they walking hand in hand with God?

The way that Enyart takes a relatively beautiful religion and turns it into venom is in lines with that of a serpent.
I don't say that of many people, but I believe he is truly evil in his twisting of the Bible, as well as leading others away from God.

Christ said, "you make your converts twice as fit for hell as you are yourselves" when speaking to the Pharissees."

For his sake, I pray that his God truly is merciful.

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

What is the most loving thing you can say to a homo?

You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!


Or something along those lines.

And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Is this how Jesus treated Zacheus?
Is this how he treated the adultress?
Is this how he treated the woman at the well?

Or is he "nicer than God"?

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy
For his sake, I pray that his God truly is merciful.
God is only merciful to those who repent. Those who don't, He throws into hell forever.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

What is the most loving thing you can say to a homo?

You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!


Or something along those lines.

And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

The problem with gay bashing or any sort of extermination of sin is that it defeats its own purpose. If you're honestly offended by the very presence of the person or the way of life in question, then good for you. If you can remain civil and try to convince people about it (as in only using words), then great! But most people, when they see something they don't like, are not rational. I'm referring to America not too long ago, and even now in some places, where homosexuals are actively beaten and killed. That's not exactly giving them a chance to repent, is it? I would liken this much to the Inquisition. All you'll get from screaming and beating on people is for them to claim your thoughts as their own just to get you off of their backs.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Is this how Jesus treated Zacheus?
Is this how he treated the adultress?
Is this how he treated the woman at the well?

Or is he "nicer than God"?

:thumb:

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Is this how Jesus treated Zacheus?
Is this how he treated the adultress?
Is this how he treated the woman at the well?

Or is he "nicer than God"?

I'm waiting for your answer.

[Chileice]

Wow! Clint. You are a prime example of what a true Christian should NOT be. Jesus didn't call down fire on the unrepentant cities like his disciples desired. Matthew 13 teaches the wheat and the tares should grow together. Yes, there will come a time of judgement but you may be judges more harshly than those you are judging. Vengeance belongs to the Lord... not to Clete.

It was this kind of stuff that made me start the Neither Victims nor Victimizers thread. I think you better re-read the New Testament with an open heart.

[Chileice]

Hey Clete, sorry I called you Clint. It was a mistake but might have been a Freudian slip for all I know. "Go ahead, make my day!"

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

What is the most loving thing you can say to a homo?

You make me sick! I want to vomit when you get near me or my family! You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert! God is your enemy and so am I! Get away from me! You don't deserve to see God's sun light reflecting off my face!


Or something along those lines.

And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Further, I would like you to explain to me this approach, using the actions of Jesus.

Now, Jesus didn't need to come for the saved. That would be preaching to the choir.

So what did he do?
In your "this is how you do it," you say that you should tell someone that they disgust you, to be killed, that they don't deserve God, etc.

Not once do you offer an out, a solution, the truth of God, the grace and mercy or forgiveness of God.

You simply damn them.

And this is the way to go?

And if someone came up to you, and started yelling, "You aren't worshipping Shiva! You disgust me! If it was legal, I would kill you with a crowbar right now, in the name of Shiva!"

Would YOU want to convert?

You don't offer God.
You offer your own condemnation.

I'm sure that makes the one you serve very happy.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Chileice

Wow! Clint. You are a prime example of what a true Christian should NOT be. Jesus didn't call down fire on the unrepentant cities like his disciples desired. Matthew 13 teaches the wheat and the tares should grow together. Yes, there will come a time of judgement but you may be judges more harshly than those you are judging. Vengeance belongs to the Lord... not to Clete.

It was this kind of stuff that made me start the Neither Victims nor Victimizers thread. I think you better re-read the New Testament with an open heart.

:thumb:

[Scottb]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

The problem with gay bashing or any sort of extermination of sin is that it defeats its own purpose. If you're honestly offended by the very presence of the person or the way of life in question, then good for you. If you can remain civil and try to convince people about it (as in only using words), then great! But most people, when they see something they don't like, are not rational. I'm referring to America not too long ago, and even now in some places, where homosexuals are actively beaten and killed. That's not exactly giving them a chance to repent, is it? I would liken this much to the Inquisition. All you'll get from screaming and beating on people is for them to claim your thoughts as their own just to get you off of their backs. People here are not beating and killing homo`s, or you would hear about it every minute on the new`s, just like the mathew shepard story.

[Scottb]

We are to rebuke the wicked, are we not.

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer
You deserve execution you filthy discusting perfert!
And no I am not kidding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

You deserve to be put to death.

You were saying, Scott?

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Is this how Jesus treated Zacheus?
Is this how he treated the adultress?
Is this how he treated the woman at the well?

Or is he "nicer than God"?

<cough>

[Kiwicottonball]

Originally posted by Scottb

People here are not beating and killing homo`s, or you would hear about it every minute on the new`s, just like the mathew shepard story.

We don't hear about these things anymore because there is probably just too much violence in the US/World to fit it all in an hour segment. Matthew Shephard isn't the only person, no way.

Or perhaps it's that we don't want to give violent bigots any more publicity, since the majority of the time these loud hateful spewings are just attention getting behavior.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

<cough> See post #8.

[beanieboy]

1Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. 4So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.
5When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, "Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today." 6So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
7All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.' "
8But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
9Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. 10For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost."

Did Jesus first condemn him, call him a thief, as the tax collectors were?

Or did he first show kindness, and in his kindness, also changed the heart of Zaccheus?

And the judgement of the non-sinners?
That Jesus was a fool going to the house of a sinner.
They thought he was being "Nicer than God", I imagine.

So, again, I ask you, how is this attack on people in following with your Christ?
And what can it possibly gain?

[Turbo]

beanieboy,

Zacchaeus was clearly had a repentant and humble heart. Jesus could plainly see it. Any third-grader reading the story should be able to see it, too. He was seeking after the Lord, and he ever is recorded calling Him "Lord."

Jesus called sinners to repent. You can't tell someone they need to repent without calling him a sinner, which is offensive to most people (like you).

To those who were repentant, those with humble attitudes toward Him, He was gentle.

To those who were hard-hearted toward Him, putting their own beliefs above His commandments which were revealed through the prophets, He was quite harsh.

You, beanieboy, are among the latter. You reject the truth of God in favor of what is right in your own eyes.

If you think Clete is harsh, wait until you meet God. He is not merciful toward those who reject His mercy.

[beanieboy]

1Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. 4So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

Where exactly is he repentant?
He wanted to see Jesus.
Where was Jesus harsh to the sinner?

You are adding things that aren't there.
I read nowhere "Jesus could see Zaccheus' heart..."

Personally, I think the point was to show the high and mighty that he came for the sinners, so they should put down their stones and self righteousness, and reach out in kindness.

Jesus is Nicer than God.

As for me?
You don't know my heart.

Nor to YOU listen to your own holy text.
Christ spoke of an arrogant Pharissee, thanking God he was not like the adulterers, the thieves, and THAT tax collector...
But the tax collector was humble before God, and said, "Have mercy on me, a sinful man."

You do not know my heart.
Although I have shown the fruit of it.

I would be careful on damning people to hell, because that is how you will be judged.
If you look coldly on others, and condemn them, so shall you be judged.
But if you look upon people with mercy, so shall you have mercy.

But what arrogance to be forgiven of God, and then walk around calling others sinners in a haughty manner.
How foul that must smell before God.

[Kiwicottonball]

Originally posted by beanieboy


But what arrogance to be forgiven of God, and then walk around calling others sinners in a haughty manner.
How foul that must smell before God.

I can only imagine.

[beanieboy]

The story of the man who owed a great sum, and was forgiven his debt, but refused to forgive the debt owed to him, which was much smaller?

It's so surreal coming here, and not believing the Bible is the word of God, necessarily, but having to use it to point it out to Christians, who more or less, contradict it.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

1Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. 2A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. 3He wanted to see who Jesus was, but being a short man he could not, because of the crowd. 4So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way.

Where exactly is he repentant?
He wanted to see Jesus.
Where was Jesus harsh to the sinner?He had no reason to be harsh to Zacchaeus. Zacchaeus sought after Jesus and called Him Lord.

You are adding things that aren't there.
I read nowhere "Jesus could see Zaccheus' heart..."It is obvious that Jesus was able to perceive such things.

Personally, I think the point was to show the high and mighty that he came for the sinners, so they should put down their stones and self righteousness, and reach out in kindness.You're interpretation "adds things" just as much as mine.

Did Jesus speak against the death penalty altogether? No. Jesus upheld all of God's commandments. They were His commandments, after all. He didn't come to testify against Himself.

Jesus is Nicer than God.No. Jesus IS God.

As for me?
You don't know my heart.You boast about your perversion and claim that it is not sinful.

Nor do YOU listen to your own holy text.
Christ spoke of an arrogant Pharissee, thanking God he was not like the adulterers, the thieves, and THAT tax collector...My holy text says to warn the wicked.

But the tax collector was humble before God, and said, "Have mercy on me, a sinful man."How I wish you were like him! You are not humble before God. You deny your sin. You need to humble yourself before the Lord Jesus Christ, repent of your sinful ways, and ask Him for mercy.

You do not know my heart.
Although I have shown the fruit of it."You will know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:16


I would be careful on damning people to hellI don't have the authority to damn you to hell. But because you reject Christ, you are condemned already (John 3:18 note the red lettering).


because that is how you will be judged. If you look coldly on others, and condemn them, so shall you be judged.
But if you look upon people with mercy, so shall you have mercy.

But what arrogance to be forgiven of God, and then walk around calling others sinners in a haughty manner.
How foul that must smell before God.Now you are judging my heart, hypocrite.

Does God grant mercy to the unrepentant? No!

If I were cold toward you, I would remain silent while you wallow in your sin. I'm trying to get you to wake up so that you might repent... so that God can be merciful toward you.

I was a sinner until three years ago when I accepted Christ as my Lord and the mercy He offers through the blood He shed on the cross. Now though I still frequently sin in my flesh, I am identified in Christ and His righteousness. I have no righeousness of my own.

[Lovejoy]

This is an interesting "discussion". Perhaps gays do deserve death, but then so do we all, do we not? If the harshness of your approach stumbles one who might come, where are you? Christ says that He did not come to judge, but to save. Otherwise He would have destroyed to world, not His own life. On the otherhand, if we are so soft that we end up as the Corinthians did, we are under judgement. The episcopalians and united methodists are in trouble, for sure. Can we be soft of heart and yet have an unyielding sense of right and wrong? Can we judge someone worthy of death and yet lay down our life that they might be saved? Christ did. I plan on beating my breast and asking "why I am worthy, a sinner?"

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

God is only merciful to those who repent. Those who don't, He throws into hell forever. It is self evident that you're a novice in regards to understanding God's Word for it declares...

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

God's kindness first upon a sinner brings them to Him.

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo


Does God grant mercy to the unrepentant? No!

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

I was a sinner until three years ago when I accepted Christ as my Lord and the mercy He offers through the blood He shed on the cross. Now though I still frequently sin in my flesh, I am identified in Christ and His righteousness. I have no righeousness of my own. As a baby believer, who still feeds off milk, stop making anti-Christ statements such as this:

Does God grant mercy to the unrepentant? No.

God's Word militates against you:

Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance.

God's kindness to the sinner (those who were unrepentant) brings them to Him.

[Turbo]

Freak,
Do unrepentant homosexuals who reject Christ go to Heaven when they die?

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Is this how Jesus treated Zacheus?
Is this how he treated the adultress?
Is this how he treated the woman at the well?

Or is he "nicer than God"?

Did you even read the article?

All three of these were repentent! And even if that could be argued (which it can't) Jesus was hardlt sweet and friendly to the woman at the well. It may be no big deal to be accused of sleeping around today but I assure it was then. Jesus was very direct and didn't pull any punches with the truth, if people responded rightly then He was quick to forgive if not then He was equally quick to condemn and to be intentionally offensive.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Chileice

Wow! Clint. You are a prime example of what a true Christian should NOT be. Jesus didn't call down fire on the unrepentant cities like his disciples desired. Matthew 13 teaches the wheat and the tares should grow together. Yes, there will come a time of judgment but you may be judges more harshly than those you are judging. Vengeance belongs to the Lord... not to Clete.

It was this kind of stuff that made me start the Neither Victims nor Victimizers thread. I think you better re-read the New Testament with an open heart.

Did you even read the article?

Who said anything about taking vengeance?
Are you suggesting that we should be tolerant of homo's and adulterers? If so it is you who need to reread the New Testament. We are taught that we (the governing authorities) should execute such criminals.

Are you also saying that it is wrong to judge?
Please, tell me you not judging me for judging people because if so then we know what that makes you, right?


Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

The problem with gay bashing or any sort of extermination of sin is that it defeats its own purpose. If you're honestly offended by the very presence of the person or the way of life in question, then good for you. If you can remain civil and try to convince people about it (as in only using words), then great! But most people, when they see something they don't like, are not rational. I'm referring to America not too long ago, and even now in some places, where homosexuals are actively beaten and killed. That's not exactly giving them a chance to repent, is it? I would liken this much to the Inquisition. All you'll get from screaming and beating on people is for them to claim your thoughts as their own just to get you off of their backs.

What are you talking about?
Did you even read the article?
Who said anything about extermination?
By your logic we shouldn't even execute murders!

And frankly I don't really care if they repent or not? I would prefer that they do but that's not the reason for stigmatizing them or at least not the primary one.
They are criminals and as such they are dangerous in many ways to everyone around them. Homosexuality should be recriminalized, restigmatized and preached against in that order. The criminal code teaches the entire society what is right and what is wrong, stigmatization of a behavior offers strong peer pressure toward the prevention of such behavior wherever it stigmatized, and local preaching and other form of personal persuasion are effective in one on one situations when the perpetrators intentions and attitudes can be specifically determined.
When I am in a public forum, the only one of these three forces that I can personally bring to bear is the second and so I do not hesitate to do so. My intent is not primarily to engender repentance in the homo's case but to impact those around him and myself in such a way as to cause them to think twice before associating or participating with homo's.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Further, I would like you to explain to me this approach, using the actions of Jesus.

Now, Jesus didn't need to come for the saved. That would be preaching to the choir.

So what did he do?
In your "this is how you do it," you say that you should tell someone that they disgust you, to be killed, that they don't deserve God, etc.

Not once do you offer an out, a solution, the truth of God, the grace and mercy or forgiveness of God.

You simply damn them.

And this is the way to go?

And if someone came up to you, and started yelling, "You aren't worshipping Shiva! You disgust me! If it was legal, I would kill you with a crowbar right now, in the name of Shiva!"

Would YOU want to convert?

You don't offer God.
You offer your own condemnation.

I'm sure that makes the one you serve very happy.

Did you even read the article?

See previous post. My intent is not specifically to casue them to repent. To plant a seed of guilt perhaps but that is all. They will not repent anyway unless their guilt is communicated. You would have me try to get them saved before they even understand that they're lost.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy

You deserve to be put to death.

What crime have I committed? Homo's commit what God defines as a capital crime everyday and brag about it! I do not say that they should be executed lightly or flipantly! I mean precisely what I say and have Scripture to back it up.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Turbo

beanieboy,

Zacchaeus was clearly had a repentant and humble heart. Jesus could plainly see it. Any third-grader reading the story should be able to see it, too. He was seeking after the Lord, and he ever is recorded calling Him "Lord."

Jesus called sinners to repent. You can't tell someone they need to repent without calling him a sinner, which is offensive to most people (like you).

To those who were repentant, those with humble attitudes toward Him, He was gentle.

To those who were hard-hearted toward Him, putting their own beliefs above His commandments which were revealed through the prophets, He was quite harsh.

You, beanieboy, are among the latter. You reject the truth of God in favor of what is right in your own eyes.

If you think Clete is harsh, wait until you meet God. He is not merciful toward those who reject His mercy.

Thanks Turbo! I was getting behind on responding! I guys gotta work sometime ya know!

GREAT Avatar! I love it! :thumb:

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy
But what arrogance to be forgiven of God, and then walk around calling others sinners in a haughty manner.
How foul that must smell before God.

I was not forgiven by God until I repented and I am likewise willing and happy to forgive if and when someone repents, not before.

Further, it is you who is being haughty not me! I do what I do with measured intent and purpose and my harshness is reserved for those who have shown cause to deserve it. You on the other hand misrepresent or don't understand what you are even ranting about! You don't mind giving me a hard time but heaven forbid that we hurt a homo's feelings.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy

The story of the man who owed a great sum, and was forgiven his debt, but refused to forgive the debt owed to him, which was much smaller?

It's so surreal coming here, and not believing the Bible is the word of God, necessarily, but having to use it to point it out to Christians, who more or less, contradict it.

Do you even understand what REPENTANT means?

[Clete]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

This is an interesting "discussion". Perhaps gays do deserve death, but then so do we all, do we not? If the harshness of your approach stumbles one who might come, where are you? Christ says that He did not come to judge, but to save. Otherwise He would have destroyed to world, not His own life. On the otherhand, if we are so soft that we end up as the Corinthians did, we are under judgement. The episcopalians and united methodists are in trouble, for sure. Can we be soft of heart and yet have an unyielding sense of right and wrong? Can we judge someone worthy of death and yet lay down our life that they might be saved? Christ did. I plan on beating my breast and asking "why I am worthy, a sinner?"

We are not talking about sin in general we are talking about criminal behavior. Homo's should be executed because they have committed a capital crime.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Freak,

As usual, you are wrong.

Job 5:17 Behold, happy [is] the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pro 3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Isa 26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer [when] thy chastening [was] upon them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hbr 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hbr 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hbr 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psa 139:21 Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Lovejoy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

We are not talking about sin in general we are talking about criminal behavior. Homo's should be executed because they have committed a capital crime.

Resting in Him,
Clete

I got nothin' to match the wrath that an unrepentant gay will face, and as such, will spend my life seeking their repentance. As well, I will not keep fellowship with a Christian who refuses to repent of sexual sin, including homosexuality. What else can I do? I would willing die for the Name, so I don't see execution as much of a threat. I think persecution of gays just makes them more militant anyway.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

I got nothin' to match the wrath that an unrepentant gay will face, and as such, will spend my life seeking their repentance. As well, I will not keep fellowship with a Christian who refuses to repent of sexual sin, including homosexuality. What else can I do? I would willing die for the Name, so I don't see execution as much of a threat. I think persecution of gays just makes them more militant anyway.

Who cares? Let them be militant! It's a better thing for them to be as evil as can be than for them to be able to assimilate into your community without the slightest resistance! Stop worrying so much about the homo's state of mind and worry more about YOUR family that they are working to destroy.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Aussie Thinker]

Clete cut straight to the point of his hatred… HOMOS..

A psychologist would have a field day with you Clete !

If ever I have heard the rantings of a closet homosexual.. YOURS ARE IT !

I hope you confess all your illicit evil homosexual thoughts .. its is so clear you HATE them so much because they get to act on their desires.. while you have to chaff and itch and suffer… because God says you must..

Give in Clete.. there is no God anyway.

[Turbo]

:shocked: Uh-oh, Clete! He figured you out. :rolleyes:

[Aussie Thinker]

Yep.. why else would you give a rats behind about what fags want to do with their lives !

[Granite]

If Enyart wants people to be really harsh, perhaps he should explain his child abuse charges and three marriages.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Yep.. why else would you give a rats behind about what fags want to do with their lives ! Then you must be a closet Creationist. :hammer:

[Clete]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Clete cut straight to the point of his hatred… HOMOS..

A psychologist would have a field day with you Clete !

If ever I have heard the rantings of a closet homosexual.. YOURS ARE IT !

I hope you confess all your illicit evil homosexual thoughts .. its is so clear you HATE them so much because they get to act on their desires.. while you have to chaff and itch and suffer… because God says you must..

Give in Clete.. there is no God anyway.

:darwinsm:

[Clete]

Originally posted by granite1010

If Enyart wants people to be really harsh, perhaps he should explain his child abuse charges and three marriages.

The only reason you know anything about it in the first place is almost certainly because he has told his own story about a million times on national T.V. and radio.
Why do you take pleasure in throwing around accusations about a Godly man in defense of perverts?

[helmet84]

Originally posted by granite1010

If Enyart wants people to be really harsh, perhaps he should explain his child abuse charges and three marriages.

Do you have a link where I can read about this?
-- helmet84

[Lucky]

Originally posted by granite1010

If Enyart wants people to be really harsh, perhaps he should explain his child abuse charges and three marriages.
:noway:

[Aussie Thinker]

Turbo,

Then you must be a closet Creationist.

TOUCHE ! Good one !

I only have fixation with YECers as I feel they attempt to undermine learning and education.

I am not sure how homosexuals effect us in any way ?

[Turbo]

Originally posted by helmet84

Do you have a link where I can read about this?
-- helmet84 It's no secret. Call him on air or off, and he'd probably tell you all about it. In fact, he might even put you on the line with his stepson he "abused." He's done that before.

[Crow]

Originally posted by granite1010

If Enyart wants people to be really harsh, perhaps he should explain his child abuse charges and three marriages.

He has. Numerous times on his TV shows, tapes, etc.

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Clete cut straight to the point of his hatred… HOMOS..

A psychologist would have a field day with you Clete !

If ever I have heard the rantings of a closet homosexual.. YOURS ARE IT !

I hope you confess all your illicit evil homosexual thoughts .. its is so clear you HATE them so much because they get to act on their desires.. while you have to chaff and itch and suffer… because God says you must..

Give in Clete.. there is no God anyway.

:darwinsm:

This from an Aussie "Thinker!"

:darwinsm:

[Aussie Thinker]

How does Enyart defend his 3 marriages.

I have NO religious belief yet I hold the vows I made in my marriage to be sacred.

I would forgive 1 mistake but not 2 (or 3).

I made a fair dinkum commitment to someone else and it would be pissweak of me to bail out on it.

It a true sign of the man’s poor character !

[wholearmor]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

How does Enyart defend his 3 marriages.

I have NO religious belief yet I hold the vows I made in my marriage to be sacred.

I would forgive 1 mistake but not 2 (or 3).

I made a fair dinkum commitment to someone else and it would be pissweak of me to bail out on it.

It a true sign of the man’s poor character !

Do you even know one iota of Enyart's story?

[Granite]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The only reason you know anything about it in the first place is almost certainly because he has told his own story about a million times on national T.V. and radio.
Why do you take pleasure in throwing around accusations about a Godly man in defense of perverts?

Uh, Clete? Time out. I didn't accuse him of anything. These are the facts: Enyart was convicted of child abuse and has been married three times.

Show me an instance where I've defended perversion and I'll call it a day. Unless criticism of Enyart is somehow an attack on morality.
:granite:

[Clete]

Originally posted by granite1010

Uh, Clete? Time out. I didn't accuse him of anything. These are the facts: Enyart was convicted of child abuse and has been married three times.

Show me an instance where I've defended perversion and I'll call it a day. Unless criticism of Enyart is somehow an attack on morality.
:granite:

I didn't say that you accused him; I said that you threw the accusations around. Besides, it doesn't matter if the accusations are true or not, does it? You don't bother to give any of the details surrounding the child abuse charges and make no reference to the fact that he doesn't like that he destroyed his own family any more than you do. In other words, it makes no difference to you that he has clearly repented of that which destroyed his family and wasn't guilty of child abuse in the first place. All you care about is smearing the reputation of a Godly man specifically for the purpose of scoring points against me in a discussion about whether it is right or wrong to stigmatize homo's.
So I say it again! You take pleasure in throwing around accusations about a Godly man in defense of perverts.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I know that Bob was convicted in a court of child abuse. I also know that he was acquitted on the same charge. He has two son’s that he had spanked. He had two separate trials both with the same evidence, the same testimony, same prosecutor and same judge. In one he was acquitted the other he was convicted. The only difference was the juries; one was more liberal than the other. In any case, spanking is not child abuse regardless of what the law says and I therefore say that he was not guilty of child abuse in the first place.

P.P.S. Do you have anything that is on topic to bring to bear against my position? Or is attacking Bob Enyart the best that you can do?

[Granite]

I'm saying that Enyart's put himself in a position of judgment. Criticizing him shouldn't be beyond the pale. Especially when he would have qualified for public stoning before he found wife number three.

[Clete]

Originally posted by granite1010

I'm saying that Enyart's put himself in a position of judgment. Criticizing him shouldn't be beyond the pale. Especially when he would have qualified for public stoning before he found wife number three.

Which he would tell you himself!

You act as if he's being disengenuous or something.
He would also tell you that if this country did execute adulterers as they should then the circumstances that led to his families distruction would never have happened in the first place
WHICH IS THE WHOLE POINT!

[beanieboy]

Do you mind if we go back to Zaccheus?

It says that Zaccheus was very wealthy because he cheated people.
He wanted to see who Jesus was, so he climbed a tree to see, because he was very short.

Then, Jesus asked if he could eat with him. This was a big deal, because the people were murmuring, "what kind of man would eat with sinners." In fact it offended the Pharisees.

After that act, (after, mind you), Zaccheus chooses to give his money.
He had a change of heart after Christ reached out in kindness.

Now, Clete says any 8 year old would know that Jesus looked at Zaccheus' heart and knew he was changed.

But I was told this story when I was a kid. In the story, Zaccheus was still a theif until after eating with Jesus. He didn't have a change of heart first. He had one afterward. Can I get an amen to back me up on the fact that this is what you were told?

So I walked home, and talked it over with the Universe, God, the Great Spirit, whatever. And this is the answer I got:

If Zaccheus had a change of heart and was repentant before Jesus was even there, what was the point of Jesus at all? Why would Jesus come and dine only with the saved? That was never the point. He came to cure the sick, to find the lost.

Can anyone back me up on this?

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Did you even read the article?

Who said anything about taking vengeance?
Are you suggesting that we should be tolerant of homo's and adulterers? If so it is you who need to reread the New Testament. We are taught that we (the governing authorities) should execute such criminals.

Are you also saying that it is wrong to judge?
Please, tell me you not judging me for judging people because if so then we know what that makes you, right?


Resting in Him,
Clete

I'm not saying that you can't judge.

But if you judge on appearances, well, that is the measure that you will be judged on.

If you judge quickly, so will you be judged.

But if you carefully weigh things, you will be judged with careful weight of all things.

That's all I'm saying.

I probably can't judge you because I don't know you.
But I can judge what you have said.

And I did.
You offered only condemnation, "You make me sick! You don't deserve God!" but offer nothing more.
No mercy.
No hope.
Not even suggestion for change.
Simply a dead end.

I see a very angry, wrathful person who wishes others dead according to Lev. Law.

I see someone who is more a diciple of Enyart than Christ.
Enyart is very good at twisting the bible to make it into anything he wants, and then he gets converts, like you.

That is why I think he is so evil. He cuts people off from God.

Matthew 23

13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[1]

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Do you mind if we go back to Zaccheus?

It says that Zaccheus was very wealthy because he cheated people.
He wanted to see who Jesus was, so he climbed a tree to see, because he was very short.

Then, Jesus asked if he could eat with him. This was a big deal, because the people were murmuring, "what kind of man would eat with sinners." In fact it offended the Pharisees.

After that act, (after, mind you), Zaccheus chooses to give his money.
He had a change of heart after Christ reached out in kindness.

Now, Clete says any 8 year old would know that Jesus looked at Zaccheus' heart and knew he was changed.

But I was told this story when I was a kid. In the story, Zaccheus was still a theif until after eating with Jesus. He didn't have a change of heart first. He had one afterward. Can I get an amen to back me up on the fact that this is what you were told?

So I walked home, and talked it over with the Universe, God, the Great Spirit, whatever. And this is the answer I got:

If Zaccheus had a change of heart and was repentant before Jesus was even there, what was the point of Jesus at all? Why would Jesus come and dine only with the saved? That was never the point. He came to cure the sick, to find the lost.

Can anyone back me up on this?

First of all it was Turbo that mentioned the 8 year old not me. It's okay though, I agree with Turbo!

Secondly, it simply doesn't matter. No one is saying that being harsh is appropriate in every situation. It's perfectly legitimate to be nice if one feels that it will get you somewhere by doing so. What is being said is that one should not be nicer than God and that being harsh is a very effective means of getting people to open their eyes as well as an effective way of deterring sin in others and that this tactic was used frequently by several if not all of the prophets and by God Himself.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[beanieboy]

Agreed.

Now can you point out where Jesus was harsh?
He was pretty out of hand with the moneychangers, but that was in the Temple.
He was pretty harsh with his disciples, but they were followers.
He was very harsh with the Pharisees, but they were teachers of the law.

But I have yet to find a passage where Jesus was harsh to the sinners to call them to him.

[Chileice]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The only reason you know anything about it in the first place is almost certainly because he has told his own story about a million times on national T.V. and radio.
Why do you take pleasure in throwing around accusations about a Godly man in defense of perverts?


You would think that if he is a true believer and if he has been forgiven, he would be the first to preach grace and tolerance and the opportunity Christ has given him to be a new creation, rather than being harsh and unloving. It reminds me of this parable from Matthew 18:

The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22J esus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."


This doesn't bode well for the likes of Enyart. One who is forgiven much should love much if he is truly forgiven. It seems like he wants others to do penance for him. No one needs to do that. He should certainly not expect other humans to be more godly than himself was not.

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Agreed.

Now can you point out where Jesus was harsh?
He was pretty out of hand with the moneychangers, but that was in the Temple.
He was pretty harsh with his disciples, but they were followers.
He was very harsh with the Pharisees, but they were teachers of the law.

But I have yet to find a passage where Jesus was harsh to the sinners to call them to him.

See post #1

Read the article!

[Clete]

Originally posted by Chileice

You would think that if he is a true believer and if he has been forgiven, he would be the first to preach grace and tolerance and the opportunity Christ has given him to be a new creation, rather than being harsh and unloving. It reminds me of this parable from Matthew 18:

The Parable of the Unmerciful Servant

21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"
22J esus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
23 "Therefore, the kingdom of heaven is like a king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 As he began the settlement, a man who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him. 25 Since he was not able to pay, the master ordered that he and his wife and his children and all that he had be sold to repay the debt.
26 "The servant fell on his knees before him. 'Be patient with me,' he begged, 'and I will pay back everything.' 27 The servant's master took pity on him, canceled the debt and let him go.
28 "But when that servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii. He grabbed him and began to choke him. 'Pay back what you owe me!' he demanded.
29 "His fellow servant fell to his knees and begged him, 'Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.'
30 "But he refused. Instead, he went off and had the man thrown into prison until he could pay the debt. 31 When the other servants saw what had happened, they were greatly distressed and went and told their master everything that had happened.
32 "Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?' 34 In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."


This doesn't bode well for the likes of Enyart. One who is forgiven much should love much if he is truly forgiven. It seems like he wants others to do penance for him. No one needs to do that. He should certainly not expect other humans to be more godly than himself was not.

We are NOT to forgive people who are unrepentent!

See post #1

READ THE ARTICLE!!!

[Granite]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

We are NOT to forgive people who are unrepentent!

See post #1

READ THE ARTICLE!!!

That doesn't address the point Chil's trying to make: Enyart is long on wrath and flogging, short on mercy.

[Clete]

Originally posted by granite1010

That doesn't address the point Chil's trying to make: Enyart is long on wrath and flogging, short on mercy.

No! You're wrong! You don't know Enyart from Adam!

We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either. I think it's interesting how seldom people with such attitudes are placed in positions where they have to put their actions where their mouths go.

If you discovered two of your employees engaging in homosexual activity in the supply closet, would you flog them or kill them because the Bible says so?

If you discovered two of your married employees engaging in heterosexual liaison (i.e. adultery) in the rest room, would you kill them because the Bible says so?

:think:

[beanieboy]

I have read the article.
Many times.
It's been on the site for years.

The especially harsh term hypocrite is used in the Gospels twenty-three times. Christ often insulted the scribes, Pharisees and lawyers. He even called the Pharisees blind guides (Mat. 23:16, 24) and sons of hell (Mat. 23:15). Jesus spoke unkind words unacceptable today. He said to Peter "Get behind me, Satan" (Mat. 16:23). He told the Pharisees "You are of your father the devil" (John 8:44), and made a whip and cleared "thieves" from the temple (Mat. 21:12-13; Mark 11:15-17; Luke 19:45-46; John 2:14:15).

All of these are followers of Jesus, or teachers of the law.
Not sinners.

Can you describe what not showing mercy means to you?
Please describe it in detail.
Give examples how how one should treat the unrepentant.

One of your suggestions is to execute them, so that God can then send them to hell.
That's the harsh judgement I was talking about.
It seems that more than that, you would want the person to enter heaven by praying for a change of heart, not seal their fate.

So, I'm confused.
Can you explain how one should act?

[beanieboy]

46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

[beanieboy]

But I tell you: Love your enemies[ 5:44 Some late manuscripts enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you] and pray for those who persecute you,

This is following with the practices of Buddha.

[Clete]

If you've read the article so thoroughly, how could you be so upside down on this?

We are not talking about just someone next door who dislikes you and has his kids paper your house. A person like that would be more appropriately dealt with in a more diplomatic manner.

That, however, is not at all the way you should treat people who are not only your enemies but enemies of God and criminals! Homosexuals will destroy your ability to raise your kids the way you see fit. That may seem like an outrageous claim but I assure you that if they succeed in destroying the family that will be the result and it will effect you. This is why God said it is a crime not simply a sin. The same is true of adultery for many of the same reasons.
I do not suggest that we take the law into our own hands and start lynching people. Criminal justice is the pervue of the governing authorities and if they do not live up to their responsibilities then we will be harmed and they will answer to God for that. But the recriminalization of adultery and homosexuality is only the first tier of a three-pronged strategy in the fight against immorality. The social stigma is the next most important and we are equipped to implement such a stigma and are therefore responsible for doing so.
So, in answer to your question, if you catch someone in your employ who is a homo, or an adulterer then fire them. In some places doing so may cost you your business, in which case be patient and wait to find some other reason to fire them. Either way, do not tolerate it. If you don't have the authority to fire them, then dislike them in such a way as they know that they are disliked. If need be quit and work somewhere else. The point being, do what you can to communicate that their behavior is repulsive to both you and to God and that you will not tolerate their presence then allow the offense to work its ministry.
The end goal is to have them repent, and the best way to do that is to have the country you live in, execute the criminal through due process of law. Baring that however, we must get them as close to that as we are able even if the closest we can come is to hurt their feelings and separate ourselves from them.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Duder]

Homosexuals will destroy your ability to raise your kids the way you see fit.

Oh, yes. I see a future where government forces invade our homes and drag the children off to fag farms.

I assure you that if they succeed in destroying the family that will be the result and it will effect you.

I learned about the secret Let's Destroy the Family meetings that are attended by every gay person from watching Jerry Falwell. How'd you hear about this ?

But the recriminalization of adultery and homosexuality is only the first tier of a three-pronged strategy in the fight against immorality. The social stigma is the next most important and we are equipped to implement such a stigma and are therefore responsible for doing so. . . . So, in answer to your question, if you catch someone in your employ who is a homo, or an adulterer then fire them.

I think this is an admirable strategy. To be effective, we are going to have to expose the lies of our opponents, such as the one who said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" - you know, that guy who broke bread with publicans and sinners and who rebuked those who were offended? This public enemy must be discredited, for we must, as you say, "communicate that their (sinners) behavior is repulsive to both you and to God and that you will not tolerate their presence . . ."

In some places doing so may cost you your business, in which case be patient and wait to find some other reason to fire them.

Brilliant! Fire them for being fags, but hide the real reason and claim it was for another reason. Of course, that means we're going to have to discredit the one who said, "Thou shalt not bear false witness . . ."

The end goal is to have them repent, and the best way to do that is to have the country you live in, execute the criminal through due process of law.

What insight! How I have longed for a return to the days of forced confession, and the sweet incense of scorched flesh as the repentant fag is sent by us to his eternal reward in heaven

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

If you've read the article so thoroughly, how could you be so upside down on this?

We are not talking about just someone next door who dislikes you and has his kids paper your house. A person like that would be more appropriately dealt with in a more diplomatic manner.

That, however, is not at all the way you should treat people who are not only your enemies but enemies of God and criminals! te

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

I've read the article.
I've pointed to places in the bible where it explains that it is the antithesis of what Jesus says.

Do you put Enyart above the Bible?
Remember, Satan quoted the bible when tempting Jesus.
You can twist it for any purpose.
Including justifying hatred for other people.

[beanieboy]

10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[1] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Not exactly tough love, huh?

[Granite]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

No! You're wrong! You don't know Enyart from Adam!

We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either.

Nice attitude. You and the Spanish inquisitors would have gotten along famously.

Why is it that Enyart's defenders get hysterical and froth at the mouth the minute someone takes him to task? This guy sticks his neck out every single day. He's going to get some flak. Deal with it.

[Nietzschean]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

If you've read the article so thoroughly, how could you be so upside down on this?

One can read and fully understand something very thoroughly, and can come out of it "upside down," (read: in disagreement) in relation to what you think it should be. This is called disagreement. A Christian could read and fully understand the Quran, or the Satanic Bible, or any other religious text, and still disagree with it. An atheist can read and understand the Holy Bible and disagree with it. It's a basic logic system that most people tend to have. If everyone who read and understood something automatically agreed with it, then you'd all be atheists by now if you'd read any of Zakath's posts.

[beanieboy]

And I would be happy to go over it piece by piece and point out the flaws of logic.

He's good, Enyart.
"Even the devil quotes scriptures for his purpose."
For Enyart, it is a call to mistreat anyone who he deems unworthy.

It's the antithesis of christianity. It's much more along the lines of Pharisee thinking.

I still can't figure out how loving someone as much as you love another translates into yelling at them, wishing them to be executed, saying they make you sick, and turning on your heels.

I have yet to understand how, despite the numerous posts from different posters, saying that if you are forgiven, how treating others in condemnation for being sinners is in contradiction with the words of Christ.

We all keep asking you questions, and you have no answers.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

10While Jesus was having dinner at Matthew's house, many tax collectors and "sinners" came and ate with him and his disciples. 11When the Pharisees saw this, they asked his disciples, "Why does your teacher eat with tax collectors and 'sinners'?"
12On hearing this, Jesus said, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 13But go and learn what this means: 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.'[1] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners... ...to repentence. See Luke 5:32

(or see Mark 2:17 or Matthew 9:13 in a translation based on the majority text.)

[Turbo]

beanieboy, do you agree that according to the Bible, homosexual acts and lusts are sinful?

[Nietzschean]

Turbo: I do. :)
But not same-sex attraction, which is different.
So thus, not all homosexuals are damned to hellfire.

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Turbo

beanieboy, do you agree that according to the Bible, homosexual acts and lusts are sinful?

Biblical Scholars, who studied who spoke, to whom, look at translation, and look at it responsibly are unable to say for sure.
Half say it definitely condemns it.
The other half say that it was referring to idol practices of pagan temples.
So, if those studying that much and believing in it differ, then, no, I don't.

And those who say that it is black and white don't study it that intensely.

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

Turbo: I do. :)
But not same-sex attraction, which is different.
So thus, not all homosexuals are damned to hellfire.

The thing that always sticks with me it the strange insinuation that if only I become heterosexual, I will make it into heaven.

[Chileice]

Originally posted by granite1010

That doesn't address the point Chil's trying to make: Enyart is long on wrath and flogging, short on mercy.

You are right about my point. But what worries me more is that Clete and the writer of the article don't get the point of the Bible. Yes, Clete, I read the whole painful article. It is written by someone with some kind of complex.

You and he are not READing scripture, you are reading INTO it. So many of the verses quoted are so out of context. So many times the writer asserts sarcasm when one would have to be present to determine such an attitude. A sarcastic jaded hateful person might be able to read sarcasm into some passages, but it is a refection of their own pain rather than a reflection of God's grace.

If anyone should understand grace, it should be one forgiven. Jesus' harshest comments (as you point out) were for the Pharisees... self-righteous religious bigots. He WAS gracious and kind to the hurting and to the sinful. He even healed people for whom we have no record of repentance. He even healed ungrateful people like 9 out of the 10 lepers. I have no doubt he would heal AIDS patients whether they were likely to be thankful or repentant or not.

You are missing the whole point of the incarnation. God became man, yet without sin. He was the only one not to sin. He only came out of MERCY. A word sadly lacking in your vocabulary. MERCY and GRACE. If you are based on the law, you are a judaizer, not a Christian. If you think we are here to harrang people into the kingdom... I don't think we are headed for the same kingdom. To say the Bible does not teach us to love the sinner but hate the sin is an outright lie. Go read Jude 22 and 23. You are doing Christianity a GREAT disservice by spouting off inane stuff like we ought to be out flogging and killing people. Jesus died for those very people and HE said: "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." I pray that you will experience forgiveness as well and that you will be able to love in the way we are exhorted to love in Col. 3.

I do not hate you or despise you, but I do pity you. I feel you have missed out on the joy of the eternal life Christ has promised to those who believe. Pray for those who persecute you for those who are lost and trust that Christ will bring them to his throne of grace. Please re-examine the New Testament with a heart that is not full of judgement and bitterness. Look through the Spirit´s eyes and not through Bob's mouth.
Blessings.

[Clete]

Originally posted by granite1010

Nice attitude. You and the Spanish inquisitors would have gotten along famously.

Why is it that Enyart's defenders get hysterical and froth at the mouth the minute someone takes him to task? This guy sticks his neck out every single day. He's going to get some flak. Deal with it.

What are you talking about?

When have gotten hysterical. You bring up accusations and I defend against them, you say something that is wrong, I say so. It seems that it is you who cannot stand the heat. You deal with it! I can do this all day long! Just keep in mind that you will give an account for every idol word you speak. I recommend that you make sure you know what you are talking about before proceeding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

One can read and fully understand something very thoroughly, and can come out of it "upside down," (read: in disagreement) in relation to what you think it should be. This is called disagreement. A Christian could read and fully understand the Quran, or the Satanic Bible, or any other religious text, and still disagree with it. An atheist can read and understand the Holy Bible and disagree with it. It's a basic logic system that most people tend to have. If everyone who read and understood something automatically agreed with it, then you'd all be atheists by now if you'd read any of Zakath's posts.

You missunderstood what I meant when I said that. I know he disagrees with Bob's position. What I don't understand is how he get Bob's position so backward! He is arguing against things that neither I nor Bob have said or advocate. It is literally as if he hasn't read the article.

[lost anomaly]

Great Article Clete! I agree taht at times harshness is needed there is a line that should not be crossed. Softness robs people of the true meaning of Chrisitanity. It dilutes the truth.

But.... From most of the people I have talked to they would rather listen to some one who is respectful and at times harsh then down right rude.

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy

And I would be happy to go over it piece by piece and point out the flaws of logic.

He's good, Enyart.
"Even the devil quotes scriptures for his purpose."
For Enyart, it is a call to mistreat anyone who he deems unworthy.

It's the antithesis of christianity. It's much more along the lines of Pharisee thinking.

I still can't figure out how loving someone as much as you love another translates into yelling at them, wishing them to be executed, saying they make you sick, and turning on your heels.

I have yet to understand how, despite the numerous posts from different posters, saying that if you are forgiven, how treating others in condemnation for being sinners is in contradiction with the words of Christ.

We all keep asking you questions, and you have no answers.

You have not asked a single question that I have not answer numerous times!

You keep asking the same questions I keep giving the same answers and will continue do so.

Yelling at someone can very easily be the most loving thing that can be done if the situation is appropriate.

And it is interesting that you condemn Bob and I for being condemning. And you think I am contradicting Christ?

Jesus said to let not you love be hypocrisy, HATE what is evil!

You could say to God, "I love you."
He might ask in response, "Oh is that right? Well, what do you think of the devil?"
If you responded, "Lord, I do my best to love everyone!"
then I can guarantee you that God would say "In that case, I don't want anything to do with your love, hypocrite!"

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by beanieboy

The thing that always sticks with me it the strange insinuation that if only I become heterosexual, I will make it into heaven.

Are you a HOMO?

[Clete]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

Great Article Clete! I agree that at times harshness is needed there is a line that should not be crossed. Softness robs people of the true meaning of Christianity. It dilutes the truth.
Finally! Someone who gets it!

But.... From most of the people I have talked to they would rather listen to some one who is respectful and at times harsh then down right rude.

It all depends. When the situation calls for it then respect is appropriate. At other times, like dealing with people who are engaged in or defending what God calls capital crimes then respect is the last thing one should show both for their sake and for yours and everyone else around.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Duder]

I have it on good authority that BeanieBoy is member of the homo sapien sapiens species. Shocking, but true.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Chileice
You are doing Christianity a GREAT disservice by spouting off inane stuff like we ought to be out flogging and killing people. Jesus died for those very people and HE said: "Father forgive them for they do not know what they are doing." I pray that you will experience forgiveness as well and that you will be able to love in the way we are exhorted to love in Col. 3.
You are a liar!
You could not possibly have read the article and said anything like this statement right here. No one has even suggested that we should be out flogging and killing people! In fact I have said the reverse three times now myself!
If I am wrong and you have read it then I consider your having made this statement an intentional lie.
I recommend reading it again. And this time try taking your own advice and don't read into it, just read it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Duder

I have it on good authority that BeanieBoy is member of the homo sapien sapiens species. Shocking, but true. Not only that, but he has sex with other men.

And for some reason, he's afraid to admit that the God of the Bible, in whom he doesn't even believe, plainly calls such behavior as grievously sinful.

[lost anomaly]

Originally posted by Nietzschean

The problem with gay bashing or any sort of extermination of sin is that it defeats its own purpose. If you're honestly offended by the very presence of the person or the way of life in question, then good for you. If you can remain civil and try to convince people about it (as in only using words), then great! But most people, when they see something they don't like, are not rational. I'm referring to America not too long ago, and even now in some places, where homosexuals are actively beaten and killed. That's not exactly giving them a chance to repent, is it? I would liken this much to the Inquisition. All you'll get from screaming and beating on people is for them to claim your thoughts as their own just to get you off of their backs.

I got to agree Nietzschean on this. The most loving thing you can do is show them the way.

[Aussie Thinker]

Clete,

You have to get a grip on reality son.

You advocate that the law should punish those who transgress YOUR interpretation of religious laws.

Islamic State anyone !

Has it ever dawned on you that people like me KNOW your stupid God does not exist.. if you try and force me to live by your ridiculous religious laws you better bring a big gun !

I don’t give a rats about what fags do to other consenting fags.. but I DO care about nuts like you who want ME to live in a Fundamentalist State !

[Chileice]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Did you even read the article?

Who said anything about taking vengeance?
Are you suggesting that we should be tolerant of homo's and adulterers? If so it is you who need to reread the New Testament. We are taught that we (the governing authorities) should execute such criminals.

Are you also saying that it is wrong to judge?
Please, tell me you not judging me for judging people because if so then we know what that makes you, right?


Resting in Him,
Clete

You wrote this. You appear to be supporting the killing of homosexuals (by the government, of course, that you elect and support) Would YOU pull the trigger?

I did reread the article as you asked. It still is a far cry from the New Testament I have read dozens of times in my 30 years as a Christian. If I had thought Jesus was meaner than the Devil; I probably wouldn't have asked him to forgive my sins and come into my life because he would have been a bigger clod than I was.

To say uncategorically that Jesus was rude is bunk. He himself said at least three times that the greates commandment in the Bible was to love God with all your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbour as yourself. We don't hang ourselves for our own sins because we love ourselves enough not to. We should let GOD be God. Maybe if we stopped trying to usurp his role the world could see more clearly what he is up to. If I have to defend God, how big is He? I do not have to defend him. I love him and trust him... including his judgement.

[Clete]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

I got to agree Nietzschean on this. The most loving thing you can do is show them the way.

The most loving thing would be for the government to execute them! That way people would stop being homo's in the first place.
Right now, that is unfortunately not an option. However, imposing a strong social stigma very definitely is an option and it is by far the most effective thing we can do to mitigate their destructive influence on our society and on our own families. The point being is that there are more important issues than the salvation of a particular homo. Being nice is not only not in the Bible it is dangerous.
Oh and by the way, before everyone goes nuts quoting scriptures about kindness and love, neither of those things are the same as being 'nice'. 'Nice' is not in the Bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Chileice]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

I got to agree Nietzschean on this. The most loving thing you can do is show them the way. :thumb:

[lost anomaly]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

The most loving thing would be for the government to execute them! That way people would stop being homo's in the first place.
Right now, that is unfortunately not an option. However, imposing a strong social stigma very definitely is an option and it is by far the most effective thing we can do to mitigate their destructive influence on our society and on our own families. The point being is that there are more important issues than the salvation of a particular homo. Being nice is not only not in the Bible it is dangerous.
Oh and by the way, before everyone goes nuts quoting scriptures about kindness and love, neither of those things are the same as being 'nice'. 'Nice' is not in the Bible.

Resting in Him,
Clete

This is where i have to disagree with you because it goes against the law. Plus, what if some of the homosexuals you put to death could have been saved if allowed to live? Wouldn't allowing them to live worth that one soul. Also, it doesn't matter if the governement does kills them or not, they are dead any ways. The government just kills their bodies, not their soul.It is God's place to pose judgement. Not mine, not yours, and not the governement.

[Aussie Thinker]

Clete,

The most loving thing would be for the government to execute them! That way people would stop being homo's in the first place.
Right now, that is unfortunately not an option.

You are one mixed up loon.

Can you stop being a heterosexual.

I would LOVE for you to be given the power and the right to personally execute these “criminals”.. I would LOVE to see you stand there and blow some poor dudes brains out because YOU think what he does is wrong.

YOU wouldn’t do it.. yet you expect society to “deal” with the “problem”

You fail as human on so many levels it’s a Joke…

Society would be far better of without you than a million fags !

[Clete]

Originally posted by Chileice

You wrote this. You appear to be supporting the killing of homosexuals (by the government, of course, that you elect and support) Would YOU pull the trigger?
I do not support the election of governing officials. And actually, in cases wher it would apply, the family of the offended party gets first dibs of not only choosing the method of execution but participating in it if they wish. Baring that, there would be no shortage of volunteers in a society were the laws were of such a nature.

I did reread the article as you asked. It still is a far cry from the New Testament I have read dozens of times in my 30 years as a Christian. If I had thought Jesus was meaner than the Devil; I probably wouldn't have asked him to forgive my sins and come into my life because he would have been a bigger clod than I was.
You still don't get it! No one is suggesting that one should be meaner than God! Just that we should not be afraid of intentionally offending people if the situation calls for it which it often does! As things are now, homo's and the like are running toward hell and most Christians wave as they pass and say "We love you...want to come to church with us?" It's discusting! I would prefer that we tackle them and break their legs (figuratively speaking)! They would like it at the time, but the swift decent into hell might at least be slowed.

To say uncategorically that Jesus was rude is bunk. He himself said at least three times that the greates commandment in the Bible was to love God with all your heart, mind and soul and to love your neighbour as yourself. We don't hang ourselves for our own sins because we love ourselves enough not to. We should let GOD be God. Maybe if we stopped trying to usurp his role the world could see more clearly what he is up to. If I have to defend God, how big is He? I do not have to defend him. I love him and trust him... including his judgement.
Then you agree! Homo's should be executed upon conviction in a public and painful way. That's God's perscription for the homo, not mine!
Have the guts to do and say what is right and stop worry about who's feeling you're going to hurt! Or as Bob would say, do right and risk the consequences.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Aussie Thinker

Clete,



You are one mixed up loon.

Can you stop being a heterosexual.

I would LOVE for you to be given the power and the right to personally execute these “criminals”.. I would LOVE to see you stand there and blow some poor dudes brains out because YOU think what he does is wrong.

YOU wouldn’t do it.. yet you expect society to “deal” with the “problem”

You fail as human on so many levels it’s a Joke…

Society would be far better of without you than a million fags !

God says otherwise. I think I'll stick with Him.
Having you as an enemy suggests that I'm on the right track.

And by the way, I would never shoot a homo in order to execute him. Stoning is far more painful as would having him drawn and quartered or any number of other things. Simple torture would be unjust but shooting is too painless. And yes I would participate if called upon to do so, or if the criminal had victimized a member of my family.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

Plus, what if some of the homosexuals you put to death could have been saved if allowed to live? Wouldn't allowing them to live worth that one soul... It is God's place to pose judgement. Not mine, not yours, and not the governement. Do you advocate the same strategy for dealing with murderers?

[lost anomaly]

Clete,

I'm not understanding your over violent approach to homosexuals. I think that yes they should be punished, but that's God's right, not ours.

[lost anomaly]

Originally posted by Turbo

Do you advocate the same strategy for dealing with murderers?


do I advocate the same strategy for dealing with murders? Hmmm.....yes. I do. I would look pretty stupid if I didn't.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

do I advocate the same strategy for dealing with murders? Hmmm.....yes. I do. I would look pretty stupid if I didn't. So I take it you are against capital punishment altogether.

You also said, "It is God's place to pose judgement. Not mine, not yours, and not the governement."

Just to clarify, should the government punish any criminals in any way?

Should the government even categorize any actions as "criminal?"

[Clete]

Originally posted by lost anomaly

This is where i have to disagree with you because it goes against the law. Plus, what if some of the homosexuals you put to death could have been saved if allowed to live? Wouldn't allowing them to live worth that one soul. Also, it doesn't matter if the government does kills them or not, they are dead any ways. The government just kills their bodies, not their soul.It is God's place to pose judgment. Not mine, not yours, and not the government.

Anomaly,

I have the feeling that you are a new Christian and so will walk through this with you but please try to think this through carefully.

First of all, I said that executing the homo is not an option at this time. That is precisely because it is against the law.

Secondly, as to your question concerning their having additional opportunities to be saved, that is not our concern. God commanded that we execute murders, adulterers, homos, and a selection of other criminals. It is not our place to question God's judgment in these matters. We are commanded not to show mercy in the execution of criminal justice. Further, half the people who are executed justly in the Bible repented before they died. That’s a way higher percentage than we have repenting today!

Thirdly, as for judging others, we are commanded over and over to judge. We are to judge with righteous judgment not as the hypocrites do. The quickest possible way to become a hypocrite is to judge someone for judging.
Here, read this...
"Judge Rightly" Is Not Some Guy's Name (http://www.enyart.com/features/writings/judge.shtml)

Resting in Him,
Clete

[lost anomaly]

You've got me. I am young which you may have already figured out. I got to now so i'll reply later.

[Duder]

Beanieboy -

Not only that, but he has sex with other men.

And for some reason, he's afraid to admit that the God of the Bible, in whom he doesn't even believe, plainly calls such behavior as grievously sinful.

I have no idea what your sexual orientation is - but in responce to attacks and accusations against alleged homosexuals . . . well, I feel like drawing such ridiculous attacks on myself - not out any martyr wish, but out of sympathy for the attacked. So, I believe that the gay community will not mind too much if I declare myself an honorary homosexual.

As an honorary homosexual, I will stand with my brothers when the Sozos and the Jeffersons and the Cletes attack them. Heck, I might even take my wife and kids and go down to the next Gay Pride parade. And I will offer prayers on behalf of the homophobes, who don't know what they are doing.

I call upon all good Christian and non-Christian men to join me in becoming honorary homosexuals. For "inasmuch as you do it unto them, you do it unto me."

[Aussie Thinker]

Clete,

God says otherwise. I think I'll stick with Him.

So you think he says.. I don’t think he even exists.. why should I abide by your primitive ideas of law ?

Having you as an enemy suggests that I'm on the right track.

Yet most of society thinks YOU are the criminal not the fags

And by the way, I would never shoot a homo in order to execute him. Stoning is far more painful as would having him drawn and quartered or any number of other things. Simple torture would be unjust but shooting is too painless. And yes I would participate if called upon to do so, or if the criminal had victimized a member of my family.

That is the biggest load of Bull I have ever heard. I have seen someone getting stoned (on film).. it was sickening… if you could throw a stone and watch it smash someone’s head and the blood fly you would regret it for the rest of your miserable life.

But factor in this.. who is the Victim you would be defending.. the member of your family who participated in consensual relations ?

They would be the next in the stoning ring !! YOU IDIOT !

Besides WHO decides on the guilt ????? Ever heard of Salem ???

Duder,

..well, I feel like drawing such ridiculous attacks on myself - not out any martyr wish, but out of sympathy for the attacked. So, I believe that the gay community will not mind too much if I declare myself an honorary homosexual.

I am with you bro… I never thought I’d say it but I am homosexual too.. (just don’t tell the missus)

[Granite]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

What are you talking about?

When have gotten hysterical. You bring up accusations and I defend against them, you say something that is wrong, I say so. It seems that it is you who cannot stand the heat. You deal with it! I can do this all day long! Just keep in mind that you will give an account for every idol word you speak. I recommend that you make sure you know what you are talking about before proceeding.

Resting in Him,
Clete

"We are not to be merciful toward those who are unrepentent either."

This was the rationale used by the inquisition to torture and execute so-called heretics. Hopefully this clears up any confusion.

[Duder]

Aussie -

Thanks, and welcome aboard.

Ya know, you're kind of cute when you get angry!

[Freak]

Originally posted by Turbo

Freak,
Do unrepentant homosexuals who reject Christ go to Heaven when they die?

Anyone who rejects Christ goes to eternal hell. Now, let's get back to the Bible...

So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment? Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

Is it God's kindness towards sinners (those who are unrepentant) that leads to repentance?

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Freak,

As usual, you are wrong.



Resting in Him,
Clete Hardly, especially when I line up my life with the Lord Jesus who declared:

Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

Did God send His Son to condemn the world (the unrepentant) or to save the world, in light of this passage?

[Freak]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Or as Bob would say, do right and risk the consequences.

Resting in Him,
Clete This is your problem, Clete, you'd rather quote