Saved from what, exactly?

[Poly]

Many Christians, when witnessing, ask the question "Are you saved?" but saved from what? Vote on how how you feel this question is best answered and feel free to expand if you voted "other".

[Turbo]

Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. Romans 5:9


...but I don't object if someone says "saved from my sins."


"Saved from Satan" isn't accurate.

[BillyBob]

Saved from 'myself'.

[Mateo]

Other,

You ain't saved until you're saved and the Bible says you ain't saved until Jesus shows back up.

[Poly]

Originally posted by BillyBob

Saved from 'myself'.
That's a pretty good answer.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Poly

That's a pretty good answer. Too bad he isn't saved.

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight

Too bad he isn't saved. :chuckle:

[Poly]

Originally posted by Freak

:chuckle:
I actually think it's quite sad that he's not saved.

[BillyBob]

Oh, that's right. Some people need to elevate themselves by pretending that they have something other people don't have.

Be my guests, fellas. After all, it is Fellowship Week.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Poly

I actually think it's quite sad that he's not saved. It's bad enough that he isn't saved but his utter hatered for Jesus Christ is tragic.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Poly

I actually think it's quite sad that he's not saved.

Don't worry about me Poly, I'm fine.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Knight

It's bad enough that he isn't saved but his utter hatered for Jesus Christ is tragic.

Wow, I am amazed by your lies tonight. What is your problem?

[Freak]

Originally posted by Poly

I actually think it's quite sad that he's not saved. It's his decision. He has rejected Christ, now God will laugh at Him and I think I'll join in with the Lord.

[Knight]

Originally posted by BillyBob

Wow, I am amazed by your lies tonight. What is your problem? You mock Christ.

You hate Christ.

You want nothing to do with Him.

You admit it, why even argue the point?

[Freak]

Originally posted by BillyBob to Knight

Wow, I am amazed by your lies tonight. What is your problem? :down: You're a pathetic man who hates Christ.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Knight

You mock Christ.

No I don't, I mock people like you.

You hate Christ.

No I don't, I hate commies.

You want nothing to do with Him.

More lies.

You admit it, why even argue the point?

You have been wrong all night, Knight. Why do you feel the need to falsely accuse someone?

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Freak

:down: You're a pathetic man who hates Christ.

You are a pathetic liar. I guess that makes two of you.

:knight: :freak:

[BillyBob]

Happy Fellowship Week.

What a crock! :down:

[BillyBob]

Typical Christian hypocrites.

:down:

[Mateo]

A...a....a... .ahem! Fellow
ship week and all .....remember?

[Knight]

You call Jesus just a "enlightened man".

You reject Him as the creator of all that exists and therefore you mock him.

You reject the Bible as the inspired word of God.

You reject that Jesus is the only Way and that everyone needs Him or they will spend an eternity with the burden of their own sin pressing down upon them.

You reject just about everything regarding the gospel of Christ.

Do you disagree?

[Mateo]

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mateo

A...a....a... .ahem! Fellow
ship week and all .....remember? I am loving BillyBob enough to remind him he needs to repent.

You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. - Leviticus 19:17

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mateo

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) That's a lot of smilie faces!

[Mateo]

"I am loving BillyBob enough to remind him he needs to repent.

You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. - Leviticus 19:17 "


Hangin' yer hat on the law are you?




;)

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Knight

You call Jesus just a "enlightened man".

Ah finally, a real dialogue. Do you deny that Jesus was a human?

You reject Him as the creator of all that exists and therefore you mock him.

Of course I reject Jesus as the Creator, he was a human! :doh: That does not mean that I hate Jesus.

You reject the Bible as the inspired word of God.

No I do not! I have always maintained that the Bible was inspired by God.


You reject that Jesus is the only Way and that everyone needs Him or they will spend an eternity with the burden of their own sin pressing down upon them.

Yes, that is correct. It does not, however, mean that I hate Jesus!

You reject just about everything regarding the gospel of Christ.

Do you disagree?

C'mon, I have stated that I am doubtful about some of the claims in the Gospels, but that does not mean I hate Jesus. This is ridiculous.

Ironically, I was trying to answer Poly's poll in an honest fashion and you TOL Fellowshippers decide to derail her thread unnecessarily.

[Poly]

Originally posted by Mateo



Hangin' yer hat on the law are you?

Looks more like he's making sure his love is not hypocritical.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mateo

"I am loving BillyBob enough to remind him he needs to repent.

You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. - Leviticus 19:17 "


Hangin' yer hat on the law are you?




;) Do you reject it?

Which is more loving?

Telling your friend he is fine as he walks off the edge of a cliff?

Of screaming, yelling and even tackling him before he walks of the edge of the cliff?

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Knight

I am loving BillyBob enough to remind him he needs to repent.

I would like to believe that your statement is true, Knight, but all I have seen tonight is hostility directed towards me. I don't mind being on the firing line, but it's hard to understand your motives sometimes. People at TOL look to you as a sort of leader here, if you know what I mean.

You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. - Leviticus 19:17

OK, I consider myself rebuked, you can stop now.

[Mateo]

Otay girls and boys,

Knight quotes the law to substanciate his actions... sounds to me like someone is going to be acountable for the whole of the law.... whadda ya think?

[Freak]

Originally posted by BillyBob

You are a pathetic liar. I guess that makes two of you.

:knight: :freak: You're the one who denies the essentials of the Christian Faith. Why are you even here?

[Knight]

You reject that Jesus is the only Way and that everyone needs Him or they will spend an eternity with the burden of their own sin pressing down upon them.

BillyBob Responds...Yes, that is correct. It does not, however, mean that I hate Jesus!John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 4:12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

There are two options....

A. BillyBob is right and therefore Jesus is a liar.
B. BillyBob thinks Jesus is a liar.

You decide.

[Freak]

Originally posted by Knight

I am loving BillyBob enough to remind him he needs to repent.

You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. - Leviticus 19:17 :up:

[Turbo]

You know what's fun? Imagining Barney's voice and demeanor as you read Knight's posts. Especially posts like this.

Originally posted by Barney

You call Jesus just a "enlightened man".

You reject Him as the creator of all that exists and therefore you mock him.

You reject the Bible as the inspired word of God.

You reject that Jesus is the only Way and that everyone needs Him or they will spend an eternity with the burden of their own sin pressing down upon them.

You reject just about everything regarding the gospel of Christ.

Do you disagree?

[Freak]

Originally posted by BillyBob



Of course I reject Jesus as the Creator, he was a human! :doh: That does not mean that I hate Jesus. BB, this confession tells me you're heading to eternal hell. Jesus is Creator.

Read Colossians 1

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mateo

Otay girls and boys,

Knight quotes the law to substanciate his actions... sounds to me like someone is going to be acountable for the whole of the law.... whadda ya think? Not eveything in the old Testament is of the "law".

The concept I brought up is a theme that runs through the entire Bible.

1Timothy 5:20 Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.

2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Turbo

You know what's fun? Imagining Barney's voice and demeanor as you read Knight's posts. Especially posts like this. :chuckle:

[Knight]

Originally posted by Freak

BB, this confession tells me you're heading to eternal hell. Jesus is Creator.

Read Colossians 1

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Awesome! :up:

[Mateo]

"You reject that Jesus is the only Way and that everyone needs Him or they will spend an eternity with the burden of their own sin pressing down upon them.

BillyBob Responds...

quote:
Yes, that is correct. It does not, however, mean that I hate Jesus!

John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 4:12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

There are two options....

A. BillyBob is right and therefore Jesus is a liar.
B. BillyBob thinks Jesus is a liar.

You decide. "


I would suggest that there is another alternatative:


1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
17 ¶ Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
24 For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.
25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

[Lucky]

I think it's pretty serious when Knight and Freak are in agreement ( :noway: ) about you not being saved.

[Knight]

Mateo... try making a point.

[Mateo]

"Not eveything in the old Testament is of the "law".

Oh, really? Exactly which part is not? (Before you answer heed Behira's advise and look the word up in the Hebrew)

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Knight

You reject that Jesus is the only Way and that everyone needs Him or they will spend an eternity with the burden of their own sin pressing down upon them.

BillyBob Responds...John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

John 3:18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Acts 4:12 “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

There are two options....

A. BillyBob is right and therefore Jesus is a liar.
B. BillyBob thinks Jesus is a liar.

You decide.

There are many more options.

1. Jesus never said that and the authors of the Bible made it up.

2. Your understanding of the concept of salvation is incorrect.

I could go on, but there is no point.....:nono:

[Freak]

Originally posted by Lucky

I think it's pretty serious when Knight and Freak are in agreement ( :noway: ) about you not being saved. Knight and I agree on much. See this: http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13700&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Freak

BB, this confession tells me you're heading to eternal hell. Jesus is Creator.



:kookoo:

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Lucky

I think it's pretty serious when Knight and Freak are in agreement ( :noway: ) about you not being saved.

Freak is just 'Brown Nosing'.

[BillyBob]

Sorry about your thread, Poly.

[Crow]

Originally posted by Mateo

Otay girls and boys,

Knight quotes the law to substanciate his actions... sounds to me like someone is going to be acountable for the whole of the law.... whadda ya think?

I think Knight is using the law as it is intended to be used--as a tutor.

I seriously doubt that Knight is using the law in an attempt to earn his own salvation.

[Freak]

Originally posted by BillyBob

:kookoo: This coming from a guy who denies these truths...

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. 17He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

[Freak]

Originally posted by BillyBob

Freak is just 'Brown Nosing'. That's laughable. :crackup: You're just hoping to change the topic.

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Freak

Knight and I agree on much.
I believe you. It's just that it's a lot more noticeable when yall are in disagreement. ;)

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Freak

That's laughable. :crackup: You're just hoping to change the topic.

Not at all. Even Lucky noticed your splendor while agreeing with Knight. I have seen the same type of response from another poster. He is no longer around.....

[Mateo]

"Post #48 of 49

quote:
Originally posted by Mateo

Otay girls and boys,

Knight quotes the law to substanciate his actions... sounds to me like someone is going to be acountable for the whole of the law.... whadda ya think?



I think Knight is using the law as it is intended to be used--as a tutor.

I seriously doubt that Knight is using the law in an attempt to earn his own salvation. ":

One man's tutor is another man's Boss. Who's your boss?

[Crow]

Originally posted by Mateo

"Post #48 of 49

quote:
Originally posted by Mateo


One man's tutor is another man's Boss. Who's your boss?

Knight has stated that he feels that BillyBob is unsaved. So although Christ is his boss, and mine, it is appropriate to remind one who one feels is unsaved and still under the law of the law, as it exists for them.

Galatians 3

23But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

[BillyBob]

This whole thing is ridiculous. I answered Poly sincerely.

[Freak]

Originally posted by Lucky

I believe you. It's just that it's a lot more noticeable when yall are in disagreement. ;) True. :chuckle:

[Sozo]

Though I have little time these days to respond to posts (or even to take the time to read them). I have come to only one absolute conclusion after reading this entire thread...














Mateo is still an idiot.

[Mateo]

"Knight has stated that he feels that BillyBob is unsaved. So although Christ is his boss, and mine, it is appropriate to remind one who one feels is unsaved and still under the law of the law, as it exists for them."


Oh... I see now. Sorry... I didn't know Billy Bob was Jewish.

[Mateo]

Sozo,

I am honored that you would take time out of what I am sure is avery busy life right about now to fellowship with me.


God Bless You

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Mateo

"Knight has stated that he feels that BillyBob is unsaved. So although Christ is his boss, and mine, it is appropriate to remind one who one feels is unsaved and still under the law of the law, as it exists for them."


Oh... I see now. Sorry... I didn't know Billy Bob was Jewish.

Get a clue, Mateo...

Galatians 3:19-25

Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

[Mateo]

Sozo,

Are you saying Billy Bob is not Jewish?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Mateo

Sozo,

Are you saying Billy Bod is not Jewish?

All I said is that you need to "get a clue". However, Paul clearly states that the Law proves that all men are under sin. Using the Law as a "tutor" is an important aspect of showing all men that they need a savior.

Get it?

[Mateo]

:chuckle:


Too late. You took the bait... might as well play it out. Is he not Jewish?

[BillyBob]

:checks his pants:

"I am a follower of the Gospel of the Circumcised"

:regrets getting back into this discussion: :noid:

[Mateo]

":checks his pants:

"I am a follower of the Gospel of the Circumcised"

:regrets getting back into this discussion: "

So you're going to be coy too... golly, a guy can't have any fun around here.

[BillyBob]

I'm having a great time!

:checks his pants...again: :D

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Mateo

:chuckle:


Too late. You took the bait... might as well play it out. Is he not Jewish?

I understand your exigency for attention because of your exiguous existence. However, unless you choose to know the Christ of the bible, any attempt on my part to reveal even the minutest modicum of wisdom toward you is nugatory.

[Mateo]

:shocked:


Okay, I'm outa here.... definately time to go to work.


zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzip

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mateo

"Not eveything in the old Testament is of the "law".

Oh, really? Exactly which part is not? (Before you answer heed Behira's advise and look the word up in the Hebrew) Ok... so we are going off track aren't we?

But my curiosity is killing me....

Is any random sentence or explanation of what was happening in the Old Testament part of the law?

Or.....

Do you think the part of the Old Testament before the law was given to Abraham is part of the law??????? :confused:

[Mateo]

knight,

08451 hrwt towrah to-raw' or hrt torah to-raw'

from 03384; TWOT-910d; n f

AV-law 219; 219

1) law, direction, instruction
1a) instruction, direction (human or divine)
1a1) body of prophetic teaching
1a2) instruction in Messianic age
1a3) body of priestly direction or instruction
1a4) body of legal directives
1b) law
1b1) law of the burnt offering
1b2) of special law, codes of law
1c) custom, manner
1d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law



One of the things we loose sight of as Americans is that the meaning of the word that is (for the most part) mistranslated as "law" also means instruction and prophetic teaching. In this respect every jot and title of the Bible is "Law" hence Jesus' remark.

The new testament, and in particular the writings of Paul build upon this earlier instruction and teaching... they do not replace or do away with them. The New Testament is essentially God's word 202, if I may be so bold.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Mateo

knight,

08451 hrwt towrah to-raw' or hrt torah to-raw'

from 03384; TWOT-910d; n f

AV-law 219; 219

1) law, direction, instruction
1a) instruction, direction (human or divine)
1a1) body of prophetic teaching
1a2) instruction in Messianic age
1a3) body of priestly direction or instruction
1a4) body of legal directives
1b) law
1b1) law of the burnt offering
1b2) of special law, codes of law
1c) custom, manner
1d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law



One of the things we loose sight of as Americans is that the meaning of the word that is (for the most part) mistranslated as "law" also means instruction and prophetic teaching. In this respect every jot and title of the Bible is "Law" hence Jesus' remark.

The new testament, and in particular the writings of Paul build upon this earlier instruction and teaching... they do not replace or do away with them. The New Testament is essentially God's word 202, if I may be so bold. So then answer my question....

There was a time before the law was given to Abraham was that time of the law as well? :confused:

[Poly]

Originally posted by Turbo

You know what's fun? Imagining Barney's voice and demeanor as you read Knight's posts.
I love you, you love me, some are headed for hell eternally.

:D ;)

[Dread Helm]

Before Abraham was the Covenant of Grace, Conscience, and (something else in the Garden that I forget :D ) Then Law, Then Grace again (here we are :D ) until GoD reactivates the Covenant of Circumcision. ( :cool: )

[Dread Helm]

Originally posted by Poly

I love you, you love me, some are headed for hell eternally.

:D ;)

That's Good! I ilke the John Lennon spoof (to the tune of "Imagine all the people":
"Imagine all the Liberals, burning up in hell..." :D

But oh yah it is Fellowship Week.... :D

[Poly]

Originally posted by Dread Helm

That's Good! I ilke the John Lennon spoof (to the tune of "Imagine all the people":
"Imagine all the Liberals, burning up in hell..." :D

But oh yah it is Fellowship Week.... :D
Oh yeah, what was I thinking? :D ;) :angel:

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Poly

I love you, you love me, some are headed for hell eternally.
:crackup:

Nice one!

[Poly]

Originally posted by Lucky

:crackup:

Nice one!
Aww.. you're too kind.

[Freak]

Originally posted by Dread Helm

Before Abraham was the Covenant of Grace, Conscience, and (something else in the Garden that I forget :D ) Then Law, Then Grace again (here we are :D ) until GoD reactivates the Covenant of Circumcision. ( :cool: ) God reactivating the Covenant of Circumcision? Better get your Bible out and read this:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

[Dread Helm]

Originally posted by Freak

God reactivating the Covenant of Circumcision? Better get your Bible out and read this:

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

No, none can be rightous in the law. What about Moses and all those in the OT that walking in the sight of the LORD? Are they going to hell?

[Dread Helm]

What I meant by reactivating the Circumcision is that the Tribulation is yet to come but we will not go through it be be Raptured from it before. (I know this is a pretty big debate and I'm just stating my position.)

[Mateo]

'So then answer my question....

There was a time before the law was given to Abraham was that time of the law as well? "


Yep.



(Sozo, please take note. See how easy this is?)

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Mateo

'So then answer my question....

There was a time before the law was given to Abraham was that time of the law as well? "


Yep.



(Sozo, please take note. See how easy this is?)

Apparently it's not "easy" for you!

Romans 5:13

...for until the Law sin was in the world; but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

[Mateo]

"Apparently it's not "easy" for you!"


I was talking about simply answering a direct question, bro.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Mateo

"Apparently it's not "easy" for you!"


I was talking about simply answering a direct question, bro.

Unfortunately your answers, direct or not, are mostly incorrect.

[Mateo]

:sozo2:





:chicken:

[Sozo]

You're rambling, Mateo. What is your point?

I have easily destroyed your convoluted anti-Christ doctrines, so what else do you want to attempt to debate?

[Mateo]

(Mateo, furiously thumbing through the past posts that Sozo also has acess to unearths the following)

"Sozo,

Are you saying Billy Bob is not Jewish?"

[Clete]

Interesting that at this point, from "my sins" and "God's wrath" are split 50-50. It seems to me that they are the same thing.

[Clete]

89 posts and only 14 votes. :think:

[Mateo]

"Interesting that at this point, from "my sins" and "God's wrath" are split 50-50. It seems to me that they are the same thing."

Careful Clete, you're getting real close to cause and effect... which leads us to sowing and reaping...which
leads us to works and salvation...



:shut:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Mateo


Are you saying Billy Bob is not Jewish?"

Asked and answered.

Does everything have to be spelled out for you?

[Mateo]

Yeah... a simple yes or no would be reeeeeeel nice.


(Dang, I wish we had a good nose picker smilie)

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Mateo

Yeah... a simple yes or no would be reeeeeeel nice.



The point, Mateo, is that it is irrelevant.



You certainly have a knack for chasing the wind, don't you?

:dizzy:

[Mateo]

Ah rekin that's a purdy good sumation of any edeavor to get you to answer a simple yes or no question.

[JosephofMessiah]

What, exactly, are Christians saved from?
You have already voted on this poll.
other (explain)


The idea of "saved" is of Christian doctrine which incorporates a Persian dualism to the doctrine of corrupted Judaism. There are many ideas which involve a mistranslation of Isaiah's morning star reference (what was Lucifer in one translation) and some would claim being saved from such a fallen demi-god due to the persian corruption, the dualism found in the ideal of a "trinity" and "satan" (which can be an ideology of Yin/Yang, pagan).

Judaism teaches a very different take of course (as is to be understood when you have monotheism and not duality) inthat YHVH set before mankind the life and the good, and the death and the evil. That YHVH is the creator of all things and a part from Him is no savior. That you do not need to be saved from a demi-god fallen angel because all eternal entities are directly commanded by the Single God (YHVH) and a cursory reading of the Tanakh can demonstrate who sent "evil" (from a human perspective) messengers when it was required, and it was not a fallen angel, it was the LORD.

However, I digress to build a standard which many people do not think about much, inthat it is not so much "belief in something" which denotes an atoning path to YHVH. This is in totality a Christian belief that a mere stance can be your salvation. This is also directly and repeatedly anti-thetical to the teachings of the prophets of the Tanakh.

The path of salvation of Solomon is exceedingly clear and simple:


{Edited for impact and clarity}
2 Chronicles 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;
[14] If my people, which are called by my name, shall:
-humble themselves,
-and pray,
-and seek my face,
-and turn from their wicked ways;
then will I [the LORD]:
-hear from heaven,
-and will forgive their sin,
-and will heal their land. (KJV)


Note I even use the KJV to demonstrate the ignorance of the Christian faith. Solomon's path to atonement was not indictative to any bloody murder of a human innocent. It involves neither any version of blood in any way. Contrary to the teachings of many peoples, YHVH never asked for sacrifice to clear/atone for mankind's sins.

The prophet David tells us clearly in the Psalm:


Psalms 40:6 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. (KJV)


This is one single scripture which Christianity has a hard time with, in fact, there is little answer to this statement which is so clearly presented that YHVH does not require a blood offering to forgive. Taken in context of the rest of the Tanakh it is demonstrated that God takes honor in very specific offering types, limited by act, defined under law, and limited by what can be offered in direct statements of the law, but that any human at any time can be an offering is a blasphemous lie. Neither can any human be atonement, neither has nor shall be any human a form of atonement unto Hashem, an abomination cannot be your salvation by definition.

Back on topic however, I answer "other" because you cannot by the Tanakh answer "Devil/Satan" because there is but One True God, a single Commander of all things. You may perhaps say sin, but then again I believe that is still a weak answer.

I believe a very good answer to this question is pride. We are saved by the prophet's words from our pride of thinking that we cannot make errors. We are saved from the pride of not seeking atonement and a righteous path. We are saved through being humbled to seek our God and know Him, and in doing so realizing that there is nothing that separates us from Him, except pride (or perhaps the worship of a false god).

But my answer is fairly complex for while "sin" is perhaps a good answer I believe that Ezekiel's path of atonement teaches us exactly what happens when the wicked man turns unto a righteous path...


But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.


This path of salvation is so clear and so innocently simple (yet requiring of us to turn from a wicked path unto a righteous path which is not easy for us as finite hedonistic creatures) that the prophet repeats himself (which is not exactly common) to ensure it is understood clearly...


Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.


Some Christian appologists attempted to take Ezekiel's words of justice and salvation and apply them to this realm maintaining that "eternal" atonement was only allowed through their demi-mangod, however this clearly denotes that "the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness and doeth that which is lawful and right he shall save his soul alive." It does not get any more clear than that and it is a wonderful discovery that God is not a blood god but simply desires of us to seek a righteous path in order to find atonement. And with atonement of your sins, you have nothing to be saved from...for "All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him."

I just wanted to put a more Judaic standpoint in this listing because TOL tends to be heavy pagan, err, I mean, Christian in argumentation when this dogma of the false church of rome is easily defeated by the words of the prophets of the Tanakh.

YHVH's mercy endureth forever, but his wrath is temporal.

[nomik]

I voted other (explain):
Christians are saved from the payment or debt of are sin's. Thats why Jesus had die for are sins.

[Living4Him]

Originally posted by Crow

I think Knight is using the law as it is intended to be used--as a tutor.

I seriously doubt that Knight is using the law in an attempt to earn his own salvation.

I know I am late with this post but I had to reply

VERY WELL SAID OF YA!!!!!:thumb:

[Living4Him]

I voted 'God's wrath' but I don't believe that thats all we are saved from. Guess I should have voted other:doh:

First I believe when God opens our eyes to the truth we are first saved from blindness of the truth. Or from our limited/wordly/fleshly thinking.

Second I believe we are saved from being Fatherless.

Third I believe we are saved from a hard heart.

Then from our own lust/ desires

Then from sin or the action we would take from our lust/desires

Then from the wrath that comes from the action of sin. Which also includes the Law. Because the Law is what shows us what sin is and therefore it is by that Law that God's wrath is stirred and our sins are stirred up all well.

I could write many other things that I believe the Lord saves us from when we come to Him. But I will stop..;)

[prodigal]

I find it disconcerting that "salvation" relies so heavily on the threat of eternal damnation. It almost makes me feel like I have no choice but to "get saved". The idea of hell, in my own opinion negates the grace and mercy of God, and makes salvation a certain necessity that we have to take whether we like it or not. An offer we can't refuse in other words.
Anyone interested at all in attempting to answer my questions has to keep in mind that I don't accept the validity of the bible the way christians do. I consider the bible to be full of spiritual truth, and that's what I look for when I read it, but I don't think the christian discipline and label are necessary for "salvation." So keep that in mind. I doubt any christians would want to debate me on spirituality and God without their precious bibles. But if they'd care to be objective and would like to speak with me about God that would be great. I believe that there is no one, and nothing that can teach me more about God than what I can, and have learned on my own.
I don't believe in hell. I find it insulting that no one has come back from the dead to tell us about the other side, but a bible beater can tell me that my grandmother is buring in eternal fire, relying on nothing but blind faith. But please, don't get me wrong. I find the bible, and the life of Jesus to be a fascinating model to live my life by. But I don't call myself a christian. I guess the title "christian" is the most important part of believing in God.
I voted other because I find christianity, or at least what it has become, to be completely ridiculous. It's just another example of power-hungry humans toting the name of God around as though they have the exclusive rights to him just because they call themselves "christians".
I voted other because I don't feel as though I need to be saved from anything.

[Sozo]

We are saved from wrath, sin, law, and death... Romans - chapters 5, 6, 7, & 8

[Berean Todd]

Originally posted by Living4Him

I voted 'God's wrath' but I don't believe that thats all we are saved from. Guess I should have voted other:doh:

First I believe when God opens our eyes to the truth we are first saved from blindness of the truth. Or from our limited/wordly/fleshly thinking.

Second I believe we are saved from being Fatherless.

Third I believe we are saved from a hard heart.

Then from our own lust/ desires

Then from sin or the action we would take from our lust/desires

Then from the wrath that comes from the action of sin. Which also includes the Law. Because the Law is what shows us what sin is and therefore it is by that Law that God's wrath is stirred and our sins are stirred up all well.

I could write many other things that I believe the Lord saves us from when we come to Him. But I will stop..;)

:thumb: Good post!

I also voted "wrath", but would also give assent to most of what you said above there.

[beanieboy]

I agree with Prodigal.
Why would you want to spend eternity with someone whose wrath you have avoided?

It's like spending eternity with an abusive partner who decides you he's not going to beat. As for everyone else...
And you are going to laugh, and say, "See! Told you so!"

And that's how it sounds. Like God sits and holds you over a flame like a spider, and says, "Do you love me, or do I drop you? Bwah-hah-hah!"

I don't want to spend eternity with that kind of being.
I don't want to spend eternity delighted in others burning in hell.
Why would anyone gloat about another's eternal damnation?
Why would anyone suggest that one is going to hell, when their life is still a work of progress?
Paul used to kill Christians, but that changed, so if you are gong to say, "Please be patient with me, God is not through with me yet", you have to give others a little slack.

I said, "Other" because I have found that you are saved from the responsibility of realizing that you are human, that you can do evil to another, that you are fallible, that you will die one day.

And instead, you believe you are going to live forever in perfect bodies, and can look down others, and say, "You're going to hell! Well, y'are!" You can feel free to call people names, and think there is no consequence for it, and back it up with a book where you twist the verses to justify it. You can wish death upon people, and think you are doing good. You do a bad thing, but it wasn't you, it was the devil.

You are "saved" from being a good human being, basically.

The rest of us are taking the harder road.
We spend time helping one another, listening to someone who is hurting, feeding someone who is living on fumes, being with someone who is lonely, doing good for no reason other than it makes us feel good, and makes the world a better place to live. We spend time edifying one another.
We learn, and tell ourselves that true knowledge comes from knowing you don't know everything.

And if many "christians" are going to heaven, yelling at each other, judging each other (YOU aren't a REAL christian) and taunting the people cast in the lake of fire,

and people like me our going to hell, hell is going to be wonderful.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

I agree with Prodigal.
Why would you want to spend eternity with someone whose wrath you have avoided?

It's like spending eternity with an abusive partner who decides you he's not going to beat. As for everyone else...
And you are going to laugh, and say, "See! Told you so!"

And that's how it sounds. Like God sits and holds you over a flame like a spider, and says, "Do you love me, or do I drop you? Bwah-hah-hah!"

I don't want to spend eternity with that kind of being.
I don't want to spend eternity delighted in others burning in hell.
Why would anyone gloat about another's eternal damnation?
Why would anyone suggest that one is going to hell, when their life is still a work of progress?
Paul used to kill Christians, but that changed, so if you are gong to say, "Please be patient with me, God is not through with me yet", you have to give others a little slack.

I said, "Other" because I have found that you are saved from the responsibility of realizing that you are human, that you can do evil to another, that you are fallible, that you will die one day.

And instead, you believe you are going to live forever in perfect bodies, and can look down others, and say, "You're going to hell! Well, y'are!" You can feel free to call people names, and think there is no consequence for it, and back it up with a book where you twist the verses to justify it. You can wish death upon people, and think you are doing good. You do a bad thing, but it wasn't you, it was the devil.

You are "saved" from being a good human being, basically.

The rest of us are taking the harder road.
We spend time helping one another, listening to someone who is hurting, feeding someone who is living on fumes, being with someone who is lonely, doing good for no reason other than it makes us feel good, and makes the world a better place to live. We spend time edifying one another.
We learn, and tell ourselves that true knowledge comes from knowing you don't know everything.

And if many "christians" are going to heaven, yelling at each other, judging each other (YOU aren't a REAL christian) and taunting the people cast in the lake of fire,

and people like me our going to hell, hell is going to be wonderful.

Carefully reading beanieboy's signature line...

:think:

Are you deliberately saying these things, beanie?

[beanieboy]

What's the matter?
A little too close to home?

[servent101]

Good posting beanieboy - I just hope you do not actually think the Bible actually says that - it just is the literalist or fundamentalist way of interpreting it - they all insist on not leaning on their own understanding - just let the chips fall where they may... Bible Idolatry.

It just is that there is actually a good message in the Bible, please don’t get too confused by the orthodox mindset, and what it does to people. PS did you catch my last post in Why I am not a Christian thread?

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

[beanieboy]

I was just following the tone of the thread, actually.

I see a lot of, "Look how great I am! I'm a christian, and you aren't, and I'm going to heaven, and you're not! So there! And one day you will burn, and I will laugh!"

It's really twisted.

Jesus leaves the 99 in search for 1 who is lost, not tells the lost sheep, "You're going to get eaten, and when you do, I will laugh!"
No. He goes and finds it, and returns it to the flock.
He has compassion. He cares.

I don't think one who is arrogant can enter the Kingdom of Heaven, and one who claims to be christian should know better.
And when I see someone who arrogantly thinks they have saved themselves, or acts as if they accomplished being saved, I laugh.
It's ridiculous.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

What's the matter?
A little too close to home? Are you still planning to be a faggot in hell?

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Sozo

Are you still planning to be a faggot in hell?

You understand that your body stays here, right?
No one is married in heaven.
No one has sex in heaven.
You have spirits.

But I'm sure you'll still be as obsessed about it there as you are down here.

[servent101]

beanieboy Jesus leaves the 99 in search for 1 who is lost, not tells the lost sheep,

In the book I am reading on Buddhism there is something about entering the stream - that this is the only comparable experience to what we will have as to what heaven is like. Entering the stream - when we decide to follow a true path after wandering after the desires of our false ego.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

salvation is so clear and so innocently simple
Yes it is. Strive after righteousness through keeping the law or strive after righteousness by having faith in the Righteous One, Jesus the Christ.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

You understand that your body stays here, right?
No one is married in heaven.
No one has sex in heaven.
You have spirits.

But I'm sure you'll still be as obsessed about it there as you are down here.

That's my point, beanie.

You don't have a clue about who we are here, nor there. You say we are spiritual beings, and then attempt to attribute physical characteristics and thoughts to those who are in hell and in heaven. Why would you think that anyone would obsess with anything relating to the flesh in heaven or hell?

If you are going to make "silly" claims, try using your "fleshly" brain to come to logical conclusions.

[beanieboy]

Obsession:
Compulsive preoccupation with a fixed idea or an unwanted feeling or emotion, often accompanied by symptoms of anxiety.

We are talking about "saved by what."
I make some commentary.

You bring up homosexuality, even though no one was talking about it.

I'm happy that I will be saved - from small c christians.

[beanieboy]

tolerant: showing respect for the rights or opinions or practices of others.

Sozo, I see that you brag about being intolerant.
And you think you are the Glory Train?

Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

tolerant: showing respect for the rights or opinions or practices of others.


Isaiah 5:20
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

God is intolerant, but YOU are tolerant. That makes YOU anti-God, and thus anti-Christ. God shows no respect for anyone's "opinions", and a true Christian has no rights. YOU lie against the truth, and repeatedly call evil good and good evil.

YOU are the one who has taken what God has proclaimed through the gospel of Jesus Christ and perverted it to justify your own behavior. You are dead to God, and alive to your own lusts and desires, a hater of truth, and a blasphemer.

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by Sozo

God is intolerant, but YOU are tolerant. That makes YOU anti-God, and thus anti-Christ. God shows no respect for anyone's "opinions", and a true Christian has no rights. YOU lie against the truth, and repeatedly call evil good and good evil.

YOU are the one who has taken what God has proclaimed through the gospel of Jesus Christ and perverted it to justify your own behavior. You are dead to God, and alive to your own lusts and desires, a hater of truth, and a blasphemer.
Hey, I thought Casper was the "friendly" ghost?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by cur_deus_homo

Hey, I thought Casper was the "friendly" ghost?

:chuckle:

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Sozo

God shows no respect for anyone's "opinions", and a true Christian has no rights.

That is one of the saddest things I'm ever read here.

That's what you worship?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

That is one of the saddest things I'm ever read here.

That's what you worship?

I worship THE God who created all things and is the source of Truth.

It is "sad" to you, because you do not trust God to do what is right, but prefer that God do what YOU think is right. YOU have a God of your own imagination whom YOU want to bow down to your desires, when, the fact is, YOU are deceived about how incredibly evil your heart is.

[beanieboy]

If only I could be a perfect good person like you...

Darn, where is that down elevator???

Have fun in heaven worshipping your God who doesn't care what you think, and who gives you no rights. Sounds like a blast.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by beanieboy

If only I could be a perfect good person like you...

You can! Simply repent (change your mind) about your own righteousness and "opinions", and receive His!Have fun in heaven worshipping your God who doesn't care what you think, and who gives you no rights. I believe that God has a better idea about what is best for me than I do. YOU believe that YOU know what is best, but YOU are wrong. YOU are trusting in your self, while I trust in Him. It's not difficult, beanie, but YOU have got to decide whom YOU will put your faith in... YOU or God.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by cur_deus_homo

Yes it is. Strive after righteousness through keeping the law...


The law is not your salvation neither is your keeping the law. The Tanakh never teaches that one must keep the law in perfection for humanity is an imperfect creation under the law. While the law is not far from us and is given to us that we may do it, there are enough examples of the men of God and men after God's own heart (David) which fail the law horribly and yet return unto a righteous path.

What I find wonderful is that in order to be servant to your false mangod of abomination for salvation you have to discredit and edit out the prophets words which were represented clearly to you in my post, and you used only a portion of my statement in order to mislead others to your false mangod.


...or strive after righteousness by having faith in the Righteous One, Jesus the Christ.

There are none righteous, no not one.

But this to the side, no man's death is atonement for another, and all vicarious atonement is outlawed directly through Ezekiel's justice. The prophet David, Solomon, Hosea, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all speak to the path of atonement and that is the path you should follow, servitude to the mangod of Rome's false church leds only to blasphemy, and in doing so you are as the prophets of BAAL once were in the belief that an abomination can be your salvation against everything the Tanakh teaches you clearly and without equivocation, listening to an "angel of light" because it is a teaching of your youth is no excuse for ignoring the simple clarity of the voice of the prophets who scream at you to not accept the injustice taught in the dogma of Rome's church.

Hosea tells us clearly that when the temple is gone we shall give the offerings of our lips as the fat of rams.

Jeremiah tells us that YHVH never spoke to our forefathers reguarding sacrifice.

David directly tells us that no sacrifice is required (which outright denies directly the claims of the church of rome).

Ezekiel's denial that vicarious atonement can take place (18:20) is a direct theological denial of the teachings of the false doctrine of rome and stands directly against the injustice of this doctrine of Pauline Christianity and against the injustice of the Original Sin Doctrine.

The law of Moses tells us that YHVH accepts both flour and charity as atonement for sins. This in no way involves nor requires blood. Neither does Jonah's Ninevah require blood to find forgiveness of the LORD, they fasted and prayed and humbled themselves before YHVH which is directly in line with the path of Solomon.

All you have to do to believe the ignorance and injustice of the church of rome, is deny Solomon, Jonah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hosea, and David are prophets....for they do not agree with your false godman's abomination as salvation in any way.

YHVH is not the blood god of rome by any means, and you are not saved through a "stance/belief" by any means what-so-ever.

[Living4Him]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

The law is not your salvation neither is your keeping the law. The Tanakh never teaches that one must keep the law in perfection for humanity is an imperfect creation under the law. While the law is not far from us and is given to us that we may do it, there are enough examples of the men of God and men after God's own heart (David) which fail the law horribly and yet return unto a righteous path.

What I find wonderful is that in order to be servant to your false mangod of abomination for salvation you have to discredit and edit out the prophets words which were represented clearly to you in my post, and you used only a portion of my statement in order to mislead others to your false mangod.



There are none righteous, no not one.

But this to the side, no man's death is atonement for another, and all vicarious atonement is outlawed directly through Ezekiel's justice. The prophet David, Solomon, Hosea, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel all speak to the path of atonement and that is the path you should follow, servitude to the mangod of Rome's false church leds only to blasphemy, and in doing so you are as the prophets of BAAL once were in the belief that an abomination can be your salvation against everything the Tanakh teaches you clearly and without equivocation, listening to an "angel of light" because it is a teaching of your youth is no excuse for ignoring the simple clarity of the voice of the prophets who scream at you to not accept the injustice taught in the dogma of Rome's church.

Hosea tells us clearly that when the temple is gone we shall give the offerings of our lips as the fat of rams.

Jeremiah tells us that YHVH never spoke to our forefathers reguarding sacrifice.

David directly tells us that no sacrifice is required (which outright denies directly the claims of the church of rome).

Ezekiel's denial that vicarious atonement can take place (18:20) is a direct theological denial of the teachings of the false doctrine of rome and stands directly against the injustice of this doctrine of Pauline Christianity and against the injustice of the Original Sin Doctrine.

The law of Moses tells us that YHVH accepts both flour and charity as atonement for sins. This in no way involves nor requires blood. Neither does Jonah's Ninevah require blood to find forgiveness of the LORD, they fasted and prayed and humbled themselves before YHVH which is directly in line with the path of Solomon.

All you have to do to believe the ignorance and injustice of the church of rome, is deny Solomon, Jonah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hosea, and David are prophets....for they do not agree with your false godman's abomination as salvation in any way.

YHVH is not the blood god of rome by any means, and you are not saved through a "stance/belief" by any means what-so-ever.

Perhaps you have not the faith which is of Abraham? The father of our faith?


Gen 22:10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

Gen 22:11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here [am] I.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son] from me.

Gen 22:13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind [him] a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.

Gen 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said [to] this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.

Gen 22:15 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,

Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]:

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mat 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.

Luk 11:31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon [is] here.

[JosephofMessiah]

Originally posted by Living4Him

Perhaps you have not the faith which is of Abraham? The father of our faith?


Abraham did not require the death of a mangod to find righteousness this (the ideology of a mangod who dies and is resurrected to save only those who believe upon him) only came about centuries later after mankind was forced to follow the teachings of rome's church without question for centuries.

Abraham (it is stated) believed upon the LORD and it (his belief in YHVH) was accounted unto him for righteousness. This is an action which could not take place in any way according to the blood-centric mangod-for-death-payment dogma of rome's church. You must also ignore the teachings of all the other prophets I listed above which you so easily dismiss somehow.

I will snip the rest, for the LORD sparing the life of Abraham's son is not akin to the LORD requiring the murder of an innocent simply to forgive and any theological argument to such an effect is only for the ignorant and unlearned...try a third world country.

[Living4Him]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

Abraham did not require the death of a mangod to find righteousness this (the ideology of a mangod who dies and is resurrected to save only those who believe upon him) only came about centuries later after mankind was forced to follow the teachings of rome's church without question for centuries.

Abraham (it is stated) believed upon the LORD and it (his belief in YHVH) was accounted unto him for righteousness. This is an action which could not take place in any way according to the blood-centric mangod-for-death-payment dogma of rome's church. You must also ignore the teachings of all the other prophets I listed above which you so easily dismiss somehow.

I will snip the rest, for the LORD sparing the life of Abraham's son is not akin to the LORD requiring the murder of an innocent simply to forgive and any theological argument to such an effect is only for the ignorant and unlearned...try a third world country.

What you are looking over is that the prophets desired to know such things but they did not. Did not God through the prophets say He would do a NEW THING?

Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them].


He gave His life for us

Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
Jhn 10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Jhn 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, [and] one shepherd.
Jhn 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Jhn 10:19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.
Jhn 10:20 And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?


Why Christ laid down His life for His sheep:


Hbr 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Was not a priest part of the teachings of most prophets? How does that go against the prophets when they testified about Christ?

[servent101]

JosephofMessiahmurder of an innocent simply to forgive and any theological argument to such an effect is only for the ignorant and unlearned...

As much as the atonement is painted in this light - and I agree that it does not do justice to what actually happened - but what did actually happen?

In reality God knew that when He was to deliver the Children of Abraham out of their sins - that they would take His son and kill Him, God though was willing to send His Son - and His Son willing to go through the humiliation and suffering of not only His crucifixion but also his suffering through our misinterpretations. This was simply the reality of the time, and of the condition of the people in that isolated geographical location. The facts were foreshadowed in the Law - that by Christ's death - through the life and example, teachings etc./ the promise of the Holy Spirit - that the Children of Abraham would be saved - and that the Blessing to all Nations would be fulfilled.

The literalist or fundamentalist does no justice to articulating the Cross - or it's significance. Hopefully I did slightly better - but in reality the Cross is something that can only be understood in the quietness of the heart, with the help of the Holy Spirit - there is much wisdom and insight, very hard to articulate properly.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[beanieboy]

Can you expound on what you just said, servant?

[servent101]

beanieboyCan you expound on what you just said, servant?


I can repeat a little and think about what I will post - if anything

but in reality the Cross is something that can only be understood in the quietness of the heart, with the help of the Holy Spirit

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[cur_deus_homo]

Originally posted by JosephofMessiah

The law is not your salvation neither is your keeping the law.
I never said it was. God alone is the redeemer.
What I find wonderful is that in order to be servant to your false mangod of abomination for salvation you have to discredit and edit out the prophets words which were represented clearly to you in my post, and you used only a portion of my statement in order to mislead others to your false mangod.
I wasn't addressing your whole post. I was addressing only that one snippet about "salvation."
There are none righteous, no not one.
Amen. Of course that's referring to mere mortal humans. God alone is righteous, and we "take on" righteousness by following the Righteous One.
no man's death is atonement for another
Bingo! In the words of Anselm: Cur deus homo.
servitude to the mangod of Rome's false church leds only to blasphemy
Christians don't serve your "mangod," they serve the Righteous One of Israel.
YHVH is not the blood god of rome by any means, and you are not saved through a "stance/belief" by any means what-so-ever.
Amen. We are saved by God's grace; we are not saved by our belief.