How do you view God?

[Poly]

Here is a post by Clete from another thread, describing his view of God.
Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

If you think I'm a right wing extremist, wait till you meet God. If you have a problem with me, you're not going to like God at all! I'm just a lame little Teddy bear compared to God. All I can do is post on this web site and shun as many homos as I come in contact with. The awesome living God, on the other hand, not only is the one who created the universe by the power of His spoken word and has the power to throw your soul into eternal fire, but He also happens to be the ultimate right wing conservative wacko extremist of the universe! And He does not like people who try to ride fences.
I suggest you pick a side and get on it!

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.



I agree with Clete's view. I'm sick of Him being made out to be a wimp or a good ol' grandpa in the sky. Yes His is loving but He is also rightous, just and holy. He cannot look upon sin and expects the same from us.
So let's get off the fence. What is your view of God? Do you agree or disagree with Clete? Give reasoning or scripture for your vote.

[Melody]

My God is also long-suffering and patient, not willing that any should perish.

[Aimiel]

The fact that He cleansed formerly 'un-clean' beasts, that we're now allowed to eat doesn't mean that He's going to endorse queers or apologize to Sodom and Gommorah.

[beanieboy]

Mark Twain used to refer to God as a boy who sat by a campfire with a daddy longlegs on a stick, and threatened to drop him in the fire if he did not love the boy.

[On Fire]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Mark Twain used to refer to God as a boy who sat by a campfire with a daddy longlegs on a stick, and threatened to drop him in the fire if he did not love the boy.

Beanie, keep asking atheists "Who is God?" and you'll go far. :kookoo:

[beanieboy]

The verse in Revelation speaks to those who neither oppose God, nor love God, but simply go through the motions, more out of habit than anything else, and as long as they make it into heaven, they really don't care about their earthly spirituality.

Why would Clete quote this?

Because God spit something out?

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by AtheistsSuck

Beanie, keep asking atheists "Who is God?" and you'll go far. :kookoo:

I think it is a good analogy to the preachers who used to scare and threaten people with hell and brimstone.

[smaller]

ALL people have what is called a "subjective view" of God or of "Christ."

The only ACCURATE view of God is contained with Himself as only HE is capable of providing any sort of definition.

His definition is that there IS NO definition that BINDS HIM or CONTAINS HIM.

Even the word eternal does not CONTAIN the position of ETERNAL.

GET IT? I doubt it.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Mark Twain used to refer to God as a boy who sat by a campfire with a daddy longlegs on a stick, and threatened to drop him in the fire if he did not love the boy. Sounds like you agree with this analogy. We (mankind, namely Adam and Eve) once enjoyed God's Presence and Company, in person. That relationship with Him was lost, due to sin. Jesus came to seek and to save that relationship. He said that 'whosover will' may come to Him, and have that relationship restored. That is what He came to do. That is what is offered to you. That is how we can come to know God. That is why He is knocking on your heart's door.

[Melody]

Originally posted by beanieboy

Mark Twain used to refer to God as a boy who sat by a campfire with a daddy longlegs on a stick, and threatened to drop him in the fire if he did not love the boy.

My view of God is one of a spider sitting on a burning log and the boy put his own hand in the fire to rescue him.

[smaller]

Aim meals god is a capitalist marketing effort....

BUY NOW and SAVE

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Sounds like you agree with this analogy. We (mankind, namely Adam and Eve) once enjoyed God's Presence and Company, in person. That relationship with Him was lost, due to sin. Jesus came to seek and to save that relationship. He said that 'whosover will' may come to Him, and have that relationship restored. That is what He came to do. That is what is offered to you. That is how we can come to know God. That is why He is knocking on your heart's door.

No. I agree with Melody's.
But that is how she represents God - as a rescuer, instead of a sadistic punisher.
Very cool image, btw. I'm going to think about that today.

[smaller]

That's what Melody says, but she still drops the spider in the fire.

[Melody]

No, but sometimes the spider bites the hand that is trying to rescue it.

[smaller]

You can type, but you cannot hide eh?

So when the SPIDER BITES then the HAND DROPS it into the fire...smashed to pieces too I'd bet.

Melodies REAL version! No surprise.

[Melody]

That still does not detract from the boy's attempt to rescue the spider.

[Poly]

Originally posted by beanieboy

No. I agree with Melody's.
But that is how she represents God - as a rescuer
And yet here you are not willing to be rescued? :kookoo:

[beanieboy]

Originally posted by Poly

And yet here you are not willing to be rescued? :kookoo:

I never said that.

But that is not what you represented.
You represented a boy with me on the stick, and threatening me that if I don't do what he says, I will burn, and he will dance around the fire.

I can't love someone who puts a gun to my head, and says, "Love me, or I'll put a bullet in your head. Don't make me do it."

That isn't love. That's threat, and fear.

[Poly]

Originally posted by beanieboy

I can't love someone who puts a gun to my head, and says, "Love me, or I'll put a bullet in your head. Don't make me do it."

That isn't love. That's threat, and fear.
You hold a gun to your own head. You don't see that we all deserve condemnation and are condemned already if we don't accept Christ. He desires that you accept Him and loves you enough not to force you. Does He have to be with those that don't want to be with Him? If you don't want to be with Him then He won't make you.
You live with your choice to not let Him save you from your distruction.

[On Fire]

Originally posted by smaller

You can type, but you cannot hide eh?

So when the SPIDER BITES then the HAND DROPS it into the fire...smashed to pieces too I'd bet.

Melodies REAL version! No surprise.

The truth hurts you, doesn't it tiny one?

[Aimiel]

We gain from Christ's demonstration of The Father's Love, which cost Him His Life, after being tortured, simply to rescue us, the depiction of The Greatest Love: His Hand extended to us, who are destined to burn, as soon as this log heats up just a little bit more. He can rescue anyone who will take His Hand.

[smaller]

Most of your "christs" DEMONstration of love is that The Mighty Hand of God cannot even rescue a little spider off a twig...IF there were 100 spiders needing to be RESCUED how many would YOUR CHRIST save????

4, maybe 6?

go figure...

[Poly]

Originally posted by smaller

Most of your "christs" DEMONstration of love is that The Mighty Hand of God cannot even rescue a little spider off a twig...IF there were 100 spiders needing to be RESCUED how many would YOUR CHRIST save????

4, maybe 6?

go figure...
Isn't it about time for mommy to put you down for your nap? :rolleyes:

[smaller]

Isn't is about time for you to tell the TRUTH?

Oh that's right, YOU CANNOT because THE TRUTH is not IN YOU.

Almighty God, MASTER AND CREATOR OF ALL THAT THERE IS cannot RESCUE a spider unless THE SPIDER assists Him.

Without the ASSistence of THE SPIDER God is COMPELLED to BURN IT, not only til death, but IN ETERNAL WRITHING TORTURE.

What a God!

not.....

Of course NONE of you will understand this BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS NOT IN YOU.

You have been BEHEADED for your previous testimony of JESUS CHRIST.

Where is THE MIND OF CHRIST?

It's in HIS WORD. HIS WORD is TRUTH.

[Melody]

Originally posted by smaller

Most of your "christs" DEMONstration of love is that The Mighty Hand of God cannot even rescue a little spider off a twig...IF there were 100 spiders needing to be RESCUED how many would YOUR CHRIST save????

4, maybe 6?

go figure...

As many as were willing to be rescued. God wants to rescue all and he went beyond being a boy reaching out, He became a spider to show the way to the boy.

[Aimiel]

All whom The Father has given Him. Each and every one whose name is written in The Lamb's Book of Life. Whosoever drinks of The Water of Life. Whosoever will; but not 'every single soul,' as smaller believes.

[Poly]

Originally posted by Melody

As many as were willing to be rescued. God wants to rescue all and he went beyond being a boy reaching out, He became a spider to show the way to the boy.
Well said! :up:

[Clete]

I voted, "I agree with Clete's description."

Imagine that! :chuckle:

I don’t really see what in world there is there to disagree with. It obviously isn't a complete description of God but in what way could it be said to be inaccurate.

God created the universe by the power of His spoken word; if you dispute this then you aren't even a Christian so what do we care what you think about the rest of the post?

He has the power to throw your soul into hell. Again, if you disagree with this, why should anyone care what you think about the rest of what I said? When you die, you'll discover the truth.

I personally cannot do either of the above things. If you disagree with that, well, then you’re insane and once again, nobody cares about what you think.

God is the ultimate right wing conservative wacko extremist of the universe.
I really like that! It just flows nicely off the tongue! Here, let's read that again...
God is the ultimate right wing conservative wacko extremist of the universe!
Beautiful! Isn't it great to have a God that isn't anything at all like Bill Clinton!
If you disagree with this, I suggest that you read the Bible, lest you become one that the Chief Corner Stone falls upon and crushes into powder.

And finally, God doesn't like those who ride fences.
Well, there isn't really much to say on this. If you disagree, again, read the Bible! It pretty much comes right out and says that you either do things God's way or you go to Hell. There’s not really much gray area there. Like I said to Cyrus of Persia, pick a side and get on it!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[smaller]

Only WILLING spiders can SAVE THEMSELVES from ETERNAL TORTURE by GOD????

The WILL of the SPIDER reigns SUPREME...

HEY! I thought I saw your "god" there for a minute....go figure...

God remains INEFFECTIVE....over the will of the SPIDER.

you guys are really SOOOO funny....

but it is kinda sad that people really believe such things about God.

So we have the 5 POINT Calvinists

and the 4 SPIDER freewillers.....or are you a SIX SPIDER freewiller?

lol

[smaller]

Jesus BECAME A SPIDER and SHOWED THE WAY to the 100 spiders, unfortunately only 4-6 of them figured it out. Too bad He wasn't a better example eh?

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

And finally, God doesn't like those who ride fences.I don't believe that there is a fence. I believe that the dividing line between good and evil is The Word of God, and that it is so sharp, that if anyone tries to sit on it, they get a surprise.

[Melody]

Too bad the spiders were so blinded by their own agendas that they could not see.

[Clete]

Aimiel,

You have just been a veritable fountain of good posts lately! :thumb:

[Cyrus of Persia]

I voted "disagree".

Not because he is not getting his ideas from the Bible. Even Jehowah Witnesses and any sect gets their ideas from the Bible. There is even nothing wrong with his description of God, EXCEPT the basic mistake any sectant makes: their teaching is UNBALANCED. I could quote scriptures as much that they would fill many A4 sheets about verses that disagree with Clete's interpretations, but i will spare time and give you only one to meditate upon - 1 Cor 13.

Good luck!

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

You have just been a veritable fountain of good posts lately!Well, thank you very much. :Popup:

[Aimiel]

I think it has to do with my new title, "Emperor-for-Life of Sinners."

[smaller]

God cannot save BLIND spider either huh Melody???

What a joker you are.

[Melody]

Originally posted by smaller

God cannot save BLIND spider either huh Melody???

What a joker you are.

And posting this made you feel better?

It obviously was not meant to enlighten me to a different viewpoint.

If you have a different idea post it and let it stand on its own merit and be proven.

But shooting down others ideas without evidence against them just makes you look petty.

And making derogatory statements against individuals just makes you look spiteful

[1Way]

Clete is right, God is right, really ,,, right, far right!

As to all the fire and brimstone stuff, the idea wasn't invented by man you know... Balance and perspective is right, but the lake of fire is way more horrible than talking about it will ever be, and the broken record that “God loves you” is played a thousand times more often than “if you are not for Him, you are against Him.”

[1Way]

Cyrus - Clete did not suggest a full depiction of who God is. He simply focused on one aspect that people tend to ignore or disbelieve and even violate.

So you say that Clete spoke the truth about God ”There is even nothing wrong with his description of God,” yet you reject it on a basis of your own expectation that he should have spoke about other aspects of God and not just one. Where is it stated to reject a particular view of who God is if it does not explain it all?

Then you said I could quote scriptures as much that they would fill many A4 sheets about verses that disagree with Clete's interpretations (which he just earlier said were biblical), but i will spare time and give you only one to meditate upon - 1 Cor 13. The love chapter, that is a hoot. You just set all of the bible’s depictions of God that are like what Clete highlighted harsh and judgmental and righteously judgmental and abhorring against evil, against godly love as though the two contrasts are not in agreement, even though you said they were biblical!

Loving goodness and abhorring wickedness are both just as “good and godly”. Godly love is not autonomous. Ro 12:9 says that granting “agape” love to start with, you end up with the sin of hypocrisy if you do not abhor evil. So necessarily, and without any disagreement, a godly love abhors evil. You should not see the disagreement you think exists, it does not exist at all.

[smaller]

Greetings Melo

And posting this made you feel better?

No, but you typify the nonsense that is perpetrated as God's Wisdom.

It obviously was not meant to enlighten me to a different viewpoint.

No, it was posted to show the utter failure of some pathetic god that people have trumphed up in their heads.

If you have a different idea post it and let it stand on its own merit and be proven.

You know my position. God can, will, and is ABLE to save 100 out of 100 people regardless of "their" position.

But shooting down others ideas without evidence against them just makes you look petty.

I do very much like making fun of IDOLS and also of BURNING them.

And making derogatory statements against individuals just makes you look spiteful

I don't care what you think, your position would be the same as most here and it remains pathetically and inherently stupid.

smaller

[Knight]

Originally posted by smaller

I don't care what you think, your position would be the same as most here and it remains pathetically and inherently stupid.

smaller Well then... maybe you should find another online forum to participate on.

You would be happier..... as would all of us. :kookoo:

[smaller]

You must be one of those "God will save 6 spiders out of 100" eh?

If the logic of the exercise escaped you perhaps a casual review of the spider posts would be in order.

Then you can tell how smart you are.

I know you can pull the trigger on me anytime.

I am surprised you have tolerated THE GOOD NEWS as long as you have. Most people who damn others to fry in hell forever gnash their teeth and rush in to condemn me as quickly as possible when they hear that GOD IS INDEED THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MANKIND just LIKE HE SAID He IS. What a surprise!

Kudos for a few thinkers here who post in honesty and apart from fear of retribution and the fact that they are allowed to but WHATEVER.

enjoy!

smaller

[Lighthouse]

I can't say that I agree or disagree completely with Clete's description. I do agree that God is a right wing extremist. But I think Clete should have left out the "wacko" part. I know clete doesn't think god is a wacko, and he was only saying that because that's what leftsits think of right wingers, but it just didn't look right. God's love for us is not that He will just accept us as filthy as we are...it is that He doesn't want us to be that way. He wants to cleanse us and make us pure and holy in His sight. Anyone who refuses that will have to die with their choice. And Aimiel is right, the Word of God is the dividing line, and Jesus is the Word fo God.

[Melody]

Originally posted by smaller

You know my position. God can, will, and is ABLE to save 100 out of 100 people regardless of "their" position.



Actually, I didn't understand your position. And I agree with you on 2 out of 3 of your points.

God can and is able to save 100 out of 100 people.

But, he does make exception of who he will save.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If you have a problem with this then take it up with God, these are his words, not mine.

As for your so-called tearing down of Idols, you are doing nothing by making yourself mirror your own posting name, Smaller, and damage your own message by linking it disrespectful and rude behaviours.

[smaller]

Greetings Melody

Actually, I didn't understand your position. And I agree with you on 2 out of 3 of your points.

Well surprise surprise. Most here tell me that they cannot stand to hear it any longer, so I assumed you knew THE GOOD NEWS as well. My apologies.

God can and is able to save 100 out of 100 people.

But He WILL not be ABLE TO right? For all the reasons that the SPIDER cannot SAVE itself. The spiders WILL, the spiders SIN, the spiders BLINDNESS etc. etc. all USURP the GOD OF ALL CREATION.

I don't think so. Sorry. Such a god is not GOD.

But, he does make exception of who he will save.

You see exceptions as PEOPLE. This is because you do not understand.

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I agree completely with EVERY TEXT and have NO PROBLEM with anything that you posted. It will always be YOUR SUBJECTIVE VIEW OF MOST OF THE TEXT that I will take issue with, as I do not SEE in the same way YOU do.

If you have a problem with this then take it up with God, these are his words, not mine.

Already said I AGREE WITH THE WORD, but not your selective, self serving, self justifying, self righteous subjective VIEW point. You are neither GOD or His Word.

As for your so-called tearing down of Idols, you are doing nothing by making yourself mirror your own posting name, Smaller, and damage your own message by linking it disrespectful and rude behaviours.

I happen to think it is VERY RUDE and HATEFUL to falsely condemn OTHER PEOPLE to burn in fire forever. This position makes you the rudest person on the planet. go figure....

smaller

[Melody]

Originally posted by smaller

Greetings Melody


Well surprise surprise. Most here tell me that they cannot stand to hear it any longer, so I assumed you knew THE GOOD NEWS as well. My apologies.


But He WILL not be ABLE TO right? For all the reasons that the SPIDER cannot SAVE itself. The spiders WILL, the spiders SIN, the spiders BLINDNESS etc. etc. all USURP the GOD OF ALL CREATION.

I don't think so. Sorry. Such a god is not GOD.


You see exceptions as PEOPLE. This is because you do not understand.


I agree completely with EVERY TEXT and have NO PROBLEM with anything that you posted. It will always be YOUR SUBJECTIVE VIEW OF MOST OF THE TEXT that I will take issue with, as I do not SEE in the same way YOU do.


Already said I AGREE WITH THE WORD, but not your selective, self serving, self justifying, self righteous subjective VIEW point. You are neither GOD or His Word.


I happen to think it is VERY RUDE and HATEFUL to falsely condemn OTHER PEOPLE to burn in fire forever. This position makes you the rudest person on the planet. go figure....

smaller

From my viewpoint I am not the condemner but the watchman warning of the river and pointing others to the bridge over that river.

I don't have the abilty to force people to use that bridge, that is their choice.

How do you see the scriptures that I posted? You claim that My viewpoint is wrong, clarify yours.

[smaller]

Uh huh...that's what all people who condemn their neighbors to eternally burn say...

I see your spiders have usurped your god. No surprise

[Knight]

Originally posted by smaller

Uh huh...that's what all people who condemn their neighbors to eternally burn say...

I see your spiders have usurped your god. No surprise :kookoo:

[Melody]

Originally posted by smaller

Uh huh...that's what all people who condemn their neighbors to eternally burn say...

I see your spiders have usurped your god. No surprise

Now see you are doing it again, rather than sharing your interpretation you are reverting to making fun of mine.

Again I am asking to share your understanding of the scriptures that I posted. You claim that you accept them as the word of God then explain how they fit in your understanding of God.

[1Way]

Lighthouse – You said I can't say that I agree or disagree completely with Clete's description. I do agree that God is a right wing extremist. But I think Clete should have left out the "wacko" part. I know clete doesn't think god is a wacko, and he was only saying that because that's what leftsits think of right wingers, but it just didn't look right. I say it looks great. God is a very socially interconnected God that doesn’t mind making the hearer of His message work a little in order to understand His views. He is intensely concerned with our dealings with each other, especially in matters for and against evil.

For example, God did not simply make Pharaoh’s heart hard, if any one person did, Pharaoh did it himself. God saw the hardness of Pharaoh’s heart a thousand times as he tormented Israel and probably in many other ungodly ways as well. Yet, God thought it ironically couth to identify Himself at the root of Pharaoh’s anti-godly heart, even though God tempts no one with sin! When it came to,,, saving the world, :) God, who is completely without sin, ,,, says of Himself, that concerning all the sin of the world, He,,, became,,, sin(!!!), which sentiment taken simply by itself is blasphemy as God is anything but sin, yet because we are expected to well know the wider context of such an ironic statement, we know God was speaking generally and relationally about substitution and atonement and becoming sin “for us”, and it was certainly not that God was the most sin-full (sin filled) being ever. I hope the point is clear, God is big and good enough to be viewed as a right winged extremist “wacko”, which is a very mild idea compared to the one’s God made for Himself.

But, I think instead of your view, if God heard about Him being called an extremist wacko, He would be a bit miffed at us for calling Him that. He might say something like, Me? a wacko!?! Are you kidding, I am not a wacko, I invented wacko, I wacko with perfect form of wackoism, I am not just “a” wacko,,, I am the. :D

[smaller]

Sorry Melody, I can't help making fun of a god who only saves 4-6 out of 100 spiders. Does this god happen to be Polish? (just KIDDING Poles)

All damnation texts were written to the devil and his messengers for whom the fires are prepared. There is not one named example in the entire text of any of mankind being burned alive forever, so it is poor interpretation on the part of the majority. They have merely found the broad path that leads to destruction.

[Melody]

Luk 16:22 .... the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

What of the rich man in the flames of hell?

[smaller]

A single name is all you need Melody.

Here's a HINT: Though the DEVIL and his messengers are disclosed by Jesus Christ as being SLATED FOR ETERNAL DESTRUCTION there is not a SINGLE NAMED INDIVIDUAL of mankind in the entire bible to support your view.

Any logical person COULD suppose that such a HORRIBLE FATE would deserve at least ONE NAMED EXAMPLE from the entire history of MANKIND???? But no, there is not a one sheep as listed for the eternal roaster.

I see the "rich man" or the "rich men" as the owners of the mortal flesh. The "men" or "man" of "sin." The same one(s) that Paul called NOT I or NO LONGER I in Romans 7:17,20-21. Most other writers in the text will confirm this position.

John for example says that SIN is OF THE DEVIL and that the one who sins does not know God nor have they known God.

Jesus Word was very often spoken to entites THAT WE in our FLESH cannot SEE.

Much of His Word was directed AT THEM and is MISTAKEN to be directed to MANKIND since these things dwell IN THE FLESH of MANkind.

Now you know, but I suspect that which owns your mortal flesh will continue to falsely condemn others to burn in fire forever and justify yourself. This activity is common among "the blind."

smaller

[1Way]

Re 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Re 20:10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Re 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Re 21:8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

[smaller]

My KINGDOM for a SINGLE NAMED EXAMPLE of MANkind for this OH SO IMPORTANT doctrine (that I do not deny....)

[1Way]

smaller – Since everyone who fits God's word about who will be eternally damned will do, you may understand any such name therein. But no one here is claiming God's word has a list of specific individuals who will be damned, wake up oh delusional one.

[smaller]

Ah, but you miss the point (surprise) 1Way...

When someone such as yourself or Melody claims that God cannot save 94-96 out of 100 people one should be responsible in making such an eternal judgment about this MAJORITY.

A single piece of evidence from the text such as A NAMED example should be in order because of the DISCLOSED EXAMPLES given are only the devil and his messengers and BECAUSE the texts you "universally apply" to OTHERS (of course) could be "universally applicable" only to the DISCLOSED parties to the ETERNAL TORTURE.

get it? too complex? Oh well...

[1Way]

Here’s more about the exclusive rights to entering into the kingdom of God for eternity.

Don’t be deceived, only the righteous of God will be saved. 1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Many, not all will be made righteous. Ro 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. You must be found in Him. Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; God is our salvation, you must be found in Him 1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God——and (righteousness and sanctification and redemption —— Or you are without Him for eternity, alone with the pain and guilt and never ending damnation of your un-forgiven sin and wickedness.

I don’t miss the non point. We do not say that God can not save even 100%, we say He can, but we also say He will not because God is true, His word is clear on the matter that only the few will be saved. You argue as though beating the air, vainly.

[1Way]

Knight was right, if you honestly find us so dumb and so unfit and wrong, then why stoop to our level, why not promote your self made ideas where people are smart enough to believe in you?

[smaller]

I only observe the ineffectiveness of your "god" in "saving" 4-6 out of 100 people. This is a fair observation.

Here’s more about the exclusive rights to entering into the kingdom of God for eternity.

Don’t be deceived, only the righteous of God will be saved.

1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Many, not all will be made righteous.
Ro 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.
You must be found in Him.
Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
God is our salvation, you must be found in Him
1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God——and (righteousness and sanctification and redemption ——
Or you are without Him for eternity, alone with the pain and guilt and never ending damnation of your un-forgiven sin and wickedness.

But you see 1Way, I do not DISAGREE with ANY of the text. Only the FALSE INTERPRETATIONS of them that are used to CONDEMN OTHERS. I do not find such ETERNAL CONDEMNATION OF OTHERS (your neighbors) as SOUND. When the SAME STANDARD of your own judgment is APPLIED to you, you ALSO FAIL. This too is a fair observation.

I don’t miss the non point. We do not say that God can not save even 100%,

Well BRAVO for your little squeak of TRUTH.


we say He can,

No you DO NOT. You perpetually give your PLAINLY SUBJECTIVE AND SELECTIVE interpretations of WHY God CANNOT and you place nearly ALL of the CANNOTs upon YOUR NEIGHBORS.

I would find my neighbors largely NOT ABLE to TURN GOD from His Intentions.

but we also say He will not because God is true, His word is clear on the matter that only the few will be saved.

You only are consistent in your IGNORANCE of the texts that CONTRADICT your view making your view SUBJECTIVE nonsense.

You argue as though beating the air, vainly.

And your god is as observed, a PATHETIC LOOSER and a LIAR to boot.

Far from THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD which HE represented He IS.

Knight was right, if you honestly find us so dumb and so unfit and wrong, then why stoop to our level, why not promote your self made ideas where people are smart enough to believe in you?

The Good News is for ALL PEOPLE. Even you ETERNAL DAMNATION OF OTHERS people. I see you as beheaded for the testimony you HELD (past tense.)

By "beheaded" I mean GOD'S WORDS do not RULE your mind, but the accuser of others and the one who seeks to destroy others DOES rule your mind, that is also as obvious as the looser god you present.

As such you are a beheaded slave. I simply feel sorry for you.

smaller

[1Way]

I can just see the smaller now. Police officer asks smaller for his driver’s license and vehicle registration
smaller says, what is the problem officer,
the officer says, I clocked you speeding 7 over the limit,
smaller says, but I don’t think my name is specifically listed for that limit, so I think I am excepted from the rule, may I have my license and registration back please.
Police officer says, step away from the car, are you currently taking any medications or hallucinogens? ... smaller is so wise and reasonable.

[1Way]

Don’t be deceived 1Co 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God. Many be made righteous. Ro 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. Be found “in Him”. Php 3:9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which [is] from the law, but that which [is] through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; God is our salvation, you must be found in Him 1Co 1:30 But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God——and (righteousness and sanctification and redemption —— Or you are without Him and His righteousness and redemption.

[smaller]

How relevent and exacting you are in engagement you rookie debate tactic abuser...

[BChristianK]

quote:
Originally posted by smaller

Uh huh...that's what all people who condemn their neighbors to eternally burn say...

I see your spiders have usurped your god. No surprise

I can see Smaller hasn't expanded his horizons since I put him on my ignore list. :chuckle:

[Melody]

Smaller, you obviously have a very different concept of God than I do. But how has that viewpoint made you different from those you apparently disagree with.

Has it made you less judgemental than others, more accepting.

You claim to know a God that is all-forgiving, do you think that you are exhibiting the spirit of that God?

Have you yourself submitted in obedience to the commands of this non-judgemental God?

[!!!!First]

The idea of how we view God - I was thinking on this the other day and became aware that if in the Bible where every time God shows mercy to us - and does not take action agaisnt us when we did something wrong - we would probably read a few thousand or million examples of where God seems to ignor our sin, simply forgives it outright - this is the case in my life anyways, and is aparent from talking with other Christians - that God has spared us His Wrath - allowing us to repent - but the Bible tends to record more of the events where God does not spare His Wrath - and people are punished on the spot for their sins - this I think needs to be taken into account when trying to understand the Nature of God.

!!!!First

[BChristianK]

Clete, I respectfully disagree..

You said:
[quote]
God is the ultimate right wing conservative wacko extremist of the universe.
I really like that! It just flows nicely off the tongue! Here, let's read that again...
God is the ultimate right wing conservative wacko extremist of the universe!
Beautiful! Isn't it great to have a God that isn't anything at all like Bill Clinton!
If you disagree with this, I suggest that you read the Bible, lest you become one that the Chief Corner Stone falls upon and crushes into powder.


He isn’t at all like bill Clinton or George Bush, I don’t know why we try to create God in our own image, as if God were our petty political puppet or our mascot. God isn’t a an elephant or an ***, He is bigger than the right wing or the left. I would agree that He looks at the left and wonders why they are so quick to tolerate the sins He hates. And I would bet that He looks at the right and wonders why they make fun of environmentalists when the first command He gave Adam was a command of dominion over something that doesn’t belong to us.




[quote]
All I can do is post on this web site and shun as many homos as I come in contact with.


Which is what God did to us, just as filthy as homos gentile sinners right?

No.

He humiliated himself by becoming a human and hanging out with prostitutes and sinners.

Jesus hung out with them and then called from their sin to follow Him, the right wingers shun them and the left wingers accept everything even the sin. Sounds like neither side is very Christ like to me.




And finally, God doesn't like those who ride fences.

And He likewise doesn’t like people defining where the fences are for him.



Well, there isn't really much to say on this. If you disagree, again, read the Bible!

Have, am, will continue to, and still disagree with ya ;)


Grace and Peace

[1Way]

!!!!First – There’s a world of difference between

God has spared us His Wrath

-- verses --

God ignoring our sin 1Th 5:9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

-- verses --

1Co 3:11 For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. Salvation means no condemnation in terms of where you will stay, but in terms of your reward, God’s fire consumes ungodliness, even saints can not sin and expect God to ignore it.

[!!!!First]

1 Way there is a world of difference in God seems to ignor our sin,

and God ignoring our sin

but granted what you posted God has spared us His Wrath

is much better phrased

I wonder though if I phrased what I was trying to say - That if every time God spared us His Wrath - if it was recorded in the Bible - would we have to go through a few thousand verses - or even a million verses before we read anything about God's Wrath - the point of the post I made is that most of God sparing His Wrath - the individual accounts are not proportionately mentioned in the text - that there are more accounts of God sparing His Wrath to His People, that are not recorded - than accounts of God's Wrath - agree or disagree but do you understand what I was posting about - and how this Wrath of God - as written in the Bible, paints a portrait of God that is a little unbalanced?

!!!!First

[1Way]

BChristianK – You quoted Clete saying All I can do is post on this web site and shun as many homos as I come in contact with. and then you said Which is what God did to us, just as filthy as homos gentile sinners right?

No.

He humiliated himself by becoming a human and hanging out with prostitutes and sinners.

Jesus hung out with them and then called from their sin to follow Him, the right wingers shun them and the left wingers accept everything even the sin. Sounds like neither side is very Christ like to me. Shunning the sexually immoral is the godly response, yet you judge against Clete for his goodness in obeying God. Pr 6:16 These six [things] the LORD hates, Yes, seven [are] an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.

1Co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner——not even to eat with such a person. Don’t be nicer than God. Shun sexual immorality, abhor evil, cling to what is good.

[1Way]

!!!First – You said - that there are more accounts of God sparing His Wrath to His People, that are not recorded - than accounts of God's Wrath - agree or disagree but do you understand what I was posting about - and how this Wrath of God - as written in the Bible, paints a portrait of God that is a little unbalanced? I understand, even that this issue can be viewed from several vantage points,

how many actual accounts total
how many were recorded
how many were not recorded
how many were of wrath
how many were of wrath withheld
etc etc.

But by logical extension, we can know much. When one single good event happens like the saving of a lost sole, the heavens rejoice. Lu 15:7 "I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Likewise, when the wicked get theirs, the righteous seeks vengeance even rejoices in it. Ps 58:10 The righteous shall rejoice when he sees the vengeance; He shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked,

Re 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" So it’s godly to rejoice over a saved soul, and to rejoice when the wicked are avenged. If your love is not for both things, it risks hypocrisy. Ro 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. So it’s not about how many examples do we find, it’s about what is right and what is wrong, good and evil are mutually exclusive.

[Poly]

Originally posted by 1Way

!!!First – You said I understand, even that this issue can be viewed from several vantage points,

how many actual accounts total
how many were recorded
how many were not recorded
how many were of wrath
how many were of wrath withheld
etc etc.

But by logical extension, we can know much. When one single good event happens like the saving of a lost sole, the heavens rejoice. Lu 15:7 "I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Likewise, when the wicked get theirs, the righteous seeks vengeance even rejoices in it. So it’s godly to rejoice over a saved soul, and to rejoice when the wicked are avenged. If your love is not for both things, it risks hypocrisy. Ro 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. So it’s not about how many examples do we find, it’s about what is right and what is wrong, good and evil are mutually exclusive.

1Way's brilliance strikes again! :up:

[!!!!First]

1Way

You make a good point - Though it is very easy for me to rejoice when the wicked perish, I for myself have to curb this type of blood lust - and try very hard to sincerely pray for God to hold back His Wrath on the wicked, so the wicked will repent; something that does not come naturally - but I do find this as being taught of the Lord - to pray for, and bless those - whom we would of otherwise as children of wrath - only cursed and hurt.

!!!!First

[1Way]

The finality of justice and wrath upon the wicked

verses

The temporal opportunity to repent


God takes no pleasure even in the death of the wicked. Eze 33:11 "Say to them: ‘[As] I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ Why, because God desires that all be saved, so sin and evil hurt God even though He is willing to forgive for all eternity if you will only trust in Him. So this godly appreciation for vengeance is not just general, it is specifically for those who are unrepentantly evil, and ultimately for those who oppose God and His righteousness. So it is not simply a “blood lust”, it is a desire for righteousness and justice, vengeance against the wicked, often because they have a general blood lust. We should “never” stop wanting vengeance against evil. But we should also always want evil people to repent. These are two separate issues that should not be confused.


Thank you closed minded Poly of exclusive biblical clarity.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by 1Way

Cyrus - Clete did not suggest a full depiction of who God is. He simply focused on one aspect that people tend to ignore or disbelieve and even violate.



Sorry, but i cannot agree with anyone who like Clete wishes certain group of people to be executed even if they do not use violence toward others (like murderers, or rapists do). And Clete is one of the leading figures in those boards who justifies his hatred toward homos by mis-using the Scripture. Instead the Gospel of Grace that calls everyone to repentance, he is advocating Gospel of Sword for certain people (and this time - homos).

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by Knight


You would be happier..... as would all of us. :kookoo:

All of us?

I do not have any problems with Smaller. But i do have problems with hatred some people's posts contain. And i do not mean you.

[1Way]

Cyrus - You have no problem with smaller, i.e. vile gross even gratuitously violent slander and personal strife central, ...

but you have a problem with people who oppose such things.

Sounds pretty much like you are trying to be nicer than God to me.

[1Way]

Cyrus - You said Sorry, but i cannot agree with anyone who like Clete wishes certain group of people to be executed even if they do not use violence toward others (like murderers, or rapists do). So in your view, God was wrong for making homosexuality a capitol offense. Homosexuality is harmful and promotes death by denying procreation (the creation of new life) and greatly advancing early death. Not to mention that it is immoral and sinful and evil.

I think God was right, so does Clete. You should learn to become loving instead of being a sinful hypocrite. Ro 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. You have one option, abhor what is evil and cling to what is good, or be a leaven promoting hypocrite by defending the evil of homosexuality.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by 1Way

Cyrus - You have no problem with smaller, i.e. vile gross even gratuitously violent slander and personal strife central, ...

but you have a problem with people who oppose such things.

Sounds pretty much like you are trying to be nicer than God to me.

Have you ever bothered to think deeply about Smaller's point he is trying to make with every message he posts?

Although i gave up discussing with him, because we got different views about some things, he is never filled with thoughts of killing some people just because their sex-orientation is different. You see - sinner is sinner - but if someone justifies killing someone, because his sin is so "special" i see it evil.

That is why i do not have problems with Smaller, but i do have a big problem with Christian Reconstructivists.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by 1Way

Cyrus - You said So in your view, God was wrong for making homosexuality a capitol offense. Homosexuality is harmful and promotes death by denying procreation (the creation of new life) and greatly advancing early death. Not to mention that it is immoral and sinful and evil.

I think God was right, so does Clete. You should learn to become loving instead of being a sinful hypocrite. Ro 12:9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good. You have one option, abhor what is evil and cling to what is good, or be a leaven promoting hypocrite by defending the evil of homosexuality.

One way,

You are either not read what i have wrote SO MUCH about homosexuality in different threads, or you are just ignoring my words.

1. God was not wrong, but His law against homos was bound in certain time in certain place, because it violated fertility principle.

2. You have still to come up with facts what say that homosexuality is more harmful than heterosexual sex. BTW, i'm sure you know that we live in times of demographical explosion, so talking about feritility in our world today is not an argument against homosexualism.

3. If i act like Jesus who did not promoted death for anybody, but called sinners to recieve new life, am is sinful hypocrite? I do not see Jesus ANYWHERE going around and wishing homos to be dead as i see Clete and his disciple Poly, and their spiritual son Dread Helm doing in those boards.

So maybe you think once again before you try to insult me about hypocricy. People with such mentality mock Gospel of Jesus what called people to recieve God's grace, and not to be killed by handing because someones sin happens to be SO SPECIAL.

The fact that your country is struggling with homo marriages now does not justify your hatred against homos. EVERY MAN is sinful and needs repentance, and homos are NO DIFFERENT.

If you reply in polite manner, i might bother to discuss this theme with you. If not, i will not let satan to take me over into same hatred, insult, and unpoliteness what is as big sin as any sexual sins.

[Smackdab]

I agree with Clete's description

Hi Cyrus you said"1. God was not wrong, but His law against homos was bound in certain time in certain place, because it violated fertility principle."

Where did you get this from?When did God repeal his law against homos?

Then you said"2. You have still to come up with facts what say that homosexuality is more harmful than heterosexual sex."

The facts are in,homos die way younger than straight people.If you care about homos you'll warn them to turn from their wicked ways.

"EVERY MAN is sinful and needs repentance"

I agree,but"the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ"and you want to do away with the law.

[1Way]

Cyrus – (Smackdab –) When God said that homosexuality is an unnatural sexually immoral abomination deserving harsh condemnation on the order of fire and brimstone for the self destructive dogs, yet somehow we should translate all that as meaning homosexuality is only wrong if the world needs more population. Like as though only having a million people worldwide represents a moral dilemma or something.

The fact is that homosexuality is sexual immorality, it is gross sin and allows for no support, only opposition. The way I see it, the only issue of reasonable contention is whether or not the law against it has been repealed. But on that note, should murder be legitimized too since the world does have a much larger population? Rhetorical question, murder and homosexuality should remain illegal.

[1Way]

Cyrus - Even if homosexuality was a capitol offense instead of being a high society social status issue, my first response for dealing with a suspected homo would not be to seek their death, but to warn them that if they are worthy of death, to repent before it’s too late. Wanting to save someone is not to be confused with a lust to see them die.

Eze 33:11 "Say to them: ‘[As] I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

So your accusations to the contrary are only false, God and those who promote His ways seek life and having it more fully, that is why we oppose wickedness, because we care.

[Poly]

Originally posted by Smackdab

When did God repeal his law against homos?


I'm guessing it's when He started realizing He had an attitude problem. He took some anger management classes. He got some counceling and is in group therapy with those Christians who are "nice" enough to point out where He had been wrong in the Old Testament. He finally realized this and took back everything He said.

But it makes you wonder how much trust you can put in a God who was wrong in His attitude?

[Smackdab]

1Way
"yet somehow we should translate all that as meaning homosexuality is only wrong if the world needs more population. Like as though only having a million people worldwide represents a moral dilemma or something."

So true,and not only that but God wasn't worried about the population when he flooded the world destroying everyone except for the eight
on Noah's ark.

"should murder be legitimized too since the world does have a much larger population?"

Thats exactly what Baby killers do, using the myth of overpopulation to further their agenda.

[temple2006]

Hi Poly...Is that a pic of you?

[Smackdab]

Poly
"I'm guessing it's when He started realizing He had an attitude problem. He took some anger management classes. He got some counceling and is in group therapy with those Christians who are "nice" enough to point out where He had been wrong in the Old Testament. He finally realized this and took back everything He said."

Ahh yes i forgot about that.
But the counseling obviously didn't take because Jesus said" But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me."
The new testament is where Jesus sends the majority of all people who ever lived to the lake of fire.

[Poly]

Originally posted by Smackdab


Ahh yes i forgot about that.
But the counseling obviously didn't take because Jesus said" But bring here those enemies of mine, who did not want me to reign over them, and slay them before me."


:up:

[Freak]

God isn't wacko. He is the wise King of kings, Lord of lords.

[1Way]

Freak - God is not wacko as in unwise, as in nuts, but of course that is not the context of the use intended. God isn't sin, and God doesn't even tempt to sin, yet God said that concerning all the sins of the word, He “became” sin (for us), and He hardened Pharaoh’s heart which was a figure of his sinful rebellion against God. I do not believe that God "actually became sin", He paid the price for sin “for us” (substitution), and I’m sure God would have been happy if Pharaoh’s heart would have yielded to miracles and demands to let Israel go.

God is a big time activist, subverting evil plans even on a national scale. You say “God is not a wacko, He is the wise King of kings, Lord of lords” but He had no problem calling Himself a heart hardener (as though He directly caused Pharaoh to rebel against God) and that “He became sin” (for us) making it sound as though He became the most sin-filled person ever. So given the context of the idea, “the ultimate right wing conservative wacko extremist” seems mild in comparison. God was wise and Lord of lords when He took on these and other similar distinctions in the bible.

I would agree that “wacko” has negative connotations that would not normally be fitting to what it means to be God. Yet “becoming sin” and “hardening a hard heart against God”, also seems a stretch too. God is healthy and has a good reputation, He can handle a little irony and hyperbole now and then.

[Clete]

I do not fear homos and yet I readily except the label 'homophobe' and do so proudly.

I characterize myself, and those who know me characterize me as a careful and thoughtful person and yet at the same time I am pleased when someone calls me a fanatic.

Many people on TOL and elsewhere consider me to be a nutcase because of the positions I hold too, and yet no one would ACTUALLY try to have me institutionalized as a mental patient.

God is a wacko in the same sense that I am a homophobic fanatic nutcase. The homos consider me a homophobe and evil people (homos in particular) think that God is a wacko. I can guarantee you that God wears the Wacko of the Universe badge very proudly, as it is good thing when evil people hate you.
As Jesus said repeatedly...

Jhn 7:7b (The world) hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil.

Jhn 15:18 If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[1Way]

Excellent stuff Clete, relationships matter greatly. He is the rock of offense, and also, the cornerstone of our faith. You can either stand securely on the rock, or get destroyed by it. God not only can handle the use of relational irony attached to Himself, He nearly seems to promote it. It’s like He’s daring us to understand Him rightly and deeply instead of superficially and wrongly. Pr 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a matter, But the glory of kings [is] to search out a matter.

Pr 12:23 A prudent man conceals knowledge, But the heart of fools proclaims foolishness.

Pr 2:1 My son, if you receive my words, And treasure my commands within you, 2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom, And apply your heart to understanding; 3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment, And lift up your voice for understanding, 4 If you seek her as silver, And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD, And find the knowledge of God.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Hey, Smackdab!

Originally posted by Smackdab

Hi Cyrus you said"1. God was not wrong, but His law against homos was bound in certain time in certain place, because it violated fertility principle."

Where did you get this from?When did God repeal his law against homos?


If you look carefully you see some differences between what laws are commanded to keep even under NT, and what not. For example NT Christians are not commanded to aviod eating certain animals. Also you see nowhere in NT where someone justifies death penalty for homos like it was in OT Law. Of course homosexualism continues to be sin even in NT times (fertility was still important matter and you know how much cultural traditions lead our reasonings even after some norms have ceased to be imperative). But have you ever wondered if there was change between OT and NT due to socio-cultural changes, then what makes us to think that no more changes will be during 2k years after NT was written?


Then you said"2. You have still to come up with facts what say that homosexuality is more harmful than heterosexual sex."

The facts are in,homos die way younger than straight people.If you care about homos you'll warn them to turn from their wicked ways.


Please link some scientifical data, so i can check it out. And hopefully this data links early death directly with homosexual activity. And if you give links, i mean honest scientifical study, not what some preacher has said.


"EVERY MAN is sinful and needs repentance"

I agree,but"the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ"and you want to do away with the law.

My sentence was made to defend the position that homosexuals should not be dealt differently than other sinners. If you pick on homos only and want them to be killed instead of preaching them Gospel of grace like you do with all other people, then your behaviour becomes sinful.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by 1Way

Cyrus - Even if homosexuality was a capitol offense instead of being a high society social status issue, my first response for dealing with a suspected homo would not be to seek their death, but to warn them that if they are worthy of death, to repent before it’s too late. Wanting to save someone is not to be confused with a lust to see them die.

Eze 33:11 "Say to them: ‘[As] I live,’ says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

So your accusations to the contrary are only false, God and those who promote His ways seek life and having it more fully, that is why we oppose wickedness, because we care.

Oneway,

seems that besides of utter lack of seeing my other posts about homosexuality, you havent read Clete's posts either. He supports the idea that homos should not let into the church, but they need to be put into death instead.

I'm arguing that everyone needs Gospel, so they can repent. And all sins are equally worthy of death in the eyes of God.

Care to do some study into Clete's posts next time before you reply? You would save our time. Thanks.

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by Smackdab


The new testament is where Jesus sends the majority of all people who ever lived to the lake of fire.

Yeah, and He does it without preaching His gospel of grace first. He just takes homos and kills them first, because he cannot be nicer than Clete.

byebye

[Clete]

Cyrus,

You are truly being an idiot. And I say that as a point of fact, not simply to be insulting.

Do you really think that I am apposed to giving the Gospel message to anyone who is lost, including homos? If so you are wrong and have not gotten that from anything that I have posted.
I do think that homos should be executed through due process of law just as I believe that murderers should be and rapist and child molesters and abortionists (oh wait I already listed murderers) and whomever else is guilty of what the Bible clearly teaches is a capital crime.
I also do not believe that anyone guilty of such crimes should be welcomed in our churches. The church is not the only place the gospel is preached you know. And if someone repents and is able to demonstrate that he has repented then he would be welcome in the church by any and all means but such a person needs a great deal of accountability as I'm sure you would agree, as would he if he were truly repentant.

So please get off you high horse and give me a break. All I want is for the criminal to be brought to justice. Not simply for justice sake but also for the sake of the criminal as well. There is, after all, nothing like an impending execution to get a criminal to think about God.


Resting in Him,
Clete

[1Way]

Cyrus – Right, I have not read other posts and threads despite your general and somewhat unrealistic expectation and request that I should. I prefer getting a solid understanding from God prior to making my views known. The most important issue is to find out the truth from God’s word on the matter and submit to it.

As to me getting Clete’s posts wrong, I don’t think so. You said Oneway,

seems that besides of utter lack of seeing my other posts about homosexuality, you havent read Clete's posts either. He supports the idea that homos should not let into the church, but they need to be put into death instead. Supposed homosexuals should be confirmed that they are sexually immoral, and then excommunicated because of it (given no laws against homosexuality like in the USA). The bible does not lend an exception to prompt excommunication for the case of homosexuality.

So I agree with the shorthand version of Clete’s view, but not at the expense of the redemptive message imparted by saying why they are being excommunicated. And I don’t believe Clete is suggesting such a thing. Before or at the same time as excommunication the reason is given for it and most likely the purpose as well, to buffet the sinner unto repentance for future acceptance back into the church. The way you are reacting to Clete’s views, I think you have it wrong, also, and ask Clete if he agrees or not, I bet he does. During the course of implementing new laws, you do not create a new law secretly and then the first person caught doing it gets put to death, you inform the people of the land of the new law(s) so that the nation legal notice of what is no longer legal. But after fair notice is given, offenders should be promptly executed.

The desire is not to catch and kill the first ignorant homo, it is to dissuade all such capitol offenses in a godly and redemptive way. Just as the death penalty is at the heart of the gospel, so to is the death penalty at the heart of a godly justice system. As speedy execution of criminal punishment is the best deterrence of criminal activity and protects people from lawlessness and promotes righteousness and morality instead.

The NT says that as the governing authorities are God’s ministers of wrath, executing vengeance against the evil doer, not holding the sword in vein. Jesus affirms putting the son or daughter to death upon parental assault (Matt 15), and Paul affirms it (Acts 25:11), the pro-Jesus thief on the cross who rightly said they (the two thieves/murderers) deserved to be put to death while Jesus did not, Jesus did not correct this assumed righteous statement, and instead said he was saved. The adulterous woman who Jesus let go without stoning was a demonstration of repealing the death penalty as shown by the examples that He still supports it, God alone can forgive on an individual basis (David for example) and Israel had no authority to execute based upon their own laws, they might be committing murder in the eyes of Rome, so that case is no support against the death penalty. The point is that the NT teaches the death penalty, it does not do otherwise.

The death penalty execution is to be carried out by the authority of the government, not the church or family or individual. This is life giving and redemptive both for the one deserving to die because there will never be a better time for him or her to repent and get right with God. As they say, there are no atheists in foxholes, many men find God is their deepest darkest hour. And for those who might otherwise think they should try it out, the righteous execution would send a clear message that homosexuality is an abomination to God and should never be practiced.

God says that a swift execution of punishment against criminals including a swift death penalty is a deterrent. Ec 8:11 Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. As to your response to smackdab about the supposed shift between the OT and NT, I see no such shift at all. As for arguing from the negative, you are being ridiculous. What then? Since God has not restated the love teachings in the last 2000 years, they are supposedly nullified because the times are more evil now? You need to give a clear indication that the law did change, and I submit that you will not find it because it did not change, even despite your socio-cultural expectations that it somehow must have.

[1Way]

Clete - Great timing(!), I was just saying that I did not think you simply want death to all homos first and foremost. The gospel should be preached, and the law should convict and swiftly execute all capitol offenders, which is redemptive in “and of” itself.

If Cirus seems uneasy or "unbalanced" shall we say, such may be expected while opposing God and the truth of a matter in such an important issue. Maybe he will be able to come up with something a bit more substantial than socio-cultural norms and arguments from negation, but I seriously doubt it.

[smaller]

So Inquisitors Clete and 1Way would do WHAT to "unbelieving sinners???"

Preach the GOOD NEWS to them and those who do not "repent" are then "promptly and swiftly executed???"

and they say CoP is a little "unbalanced?"

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Cyrus,

You are truly being an idiot. And I say that as a point of fact, not simply to be insulting.

Do you really think that I am apposed to giving the Gospel message to anyone who is lost, including homos? If so you are wrong and have not gotten that from anything that I have posted.
I do think that homos should be executed through due process of law just as I believe that murderers should be and rapist and child molesters and abortionists (oh wait I already listed murderers) and whomever else is guilty of what the Bible clearly teaches is a capital crime.
I also do not believe that anyone guilty of such crimes should be welcomed in our churches. The church is not the only place the gospel is preached you know. And if someone repents and is able to demonstrate that he has repented then he would be welcome in the church by any and all means but such a person needs a great deal of accountability as I'm sure you would agree, as would he if he were truly repentant.

So please get off you high horse and give me a break. All I want is for the criminal to be brought to justice. Not simply for justice sake but also for the sake of the criminal as well. There is, after all, nothing like an impending execution to get a criminal to think about God.


Resting in Him,
Clete

You state it as "fact", not as insult that i am idiot? Oh, is it another "fact" among those "facts" you bring up to justify your hatred toward homos? Is this "fact" been taught to you by your Christian Reconstructivist morons? Oh, you are just violent crap to waste my times and nerves.

If you think that you are better than Jesus who would welcomed gays to Church (i mean buiding, btw, not congregation if you are still too silly to understand the difference), so they could hear the gospel even there, then good for YOU.

I have nothing to do with your reconstructivist christianity. thanks and byebye

[Cyrus of Persia]

Originally posted by smaller

So Inquisitors Clete and 1Way would do WHAT to "unbelieving sinners???"

Preach the GOOD NEWS to them and those who do not "repent" are then "promptly and swiftly executed???"

and they say CoP is a little "unbalanced?"

Seems that they want to do that yes. That's why it's pretty pointless to argue with them, because seems that they know SO MUCH about God and His will BY THEIR OWN TWISTED INTERPRETATIONS OF THE BIBLE, that using the word "discussion" with such fundies is the same as banging the head against wall :bang:

You cannot argue with people who are not open for different interpretation, because they think their violent intentions are actually from God. But let the blind lead the blind, i will wash my hand from such pointless and unjustified hate, and talk better with people who got some brains :kookoo:

[smaller]

IF we ran a survey of how many gay people are born of christian fundamentalists it would show that christian fundamentalists are the SUPERIOR SPAWNERS of gays.

Perhaps God is trying to tell them something????

like...

If you can't love your neighbors or your enemies TRY THIS

[1Way]

Cyrus - You are being a hypocrite. If Clete is wrong because he called you an idiot but gave a just cause and was reasonable in answering your questions and false charges against him, and your treatment of Clete is that he is a spiritual moron, only you withhold using that title, but lavish in substantiating the same claim, so you do what you say should not be done.

Clete showed how you were wrong in making so many charges against him, the “fact” that you chose to ignore his righteous defense only to slander him the more, shows where your heart is all the more. If you were being objective about all this, you should have been happy to see Clete does not teach as you falsifyingly charged he did.

So Clete wants the gospel to be spread to everyone, he wants all to have the best opportunity to come to Christ, but you think that he is still worthy of your personal contempt, because he is catching you being a false accuser and ill willed.

Jesus would never lead a homosexual to church, he would minister the truth and if it was not accepted, off to the gallows it would be. Stop promoting evil, stop opposing God’s minister for wrath executing vengeance upon the criminal for the sake of righteousness and goodness. It is foolish to oppose what you claim you support. Or are you not a Chrisian? If so, I suggest you find better grounds for dismissing a bible teaching than socio-cultural differentiation and arguments from negation. As stated, Jesus did not repeal the death penalty according to NT sources.

[LightSon]

Originally posted by smaller

IF we ran a survey of how many gay people are born of christian fundamentalists it would show that christian fundamentalists are the SUPERIOR SPAWNERS of gays.


Wouldn't it be better to actually do the survey before you proclaim the "answer"? :bang: This is just spurious garbage smaller.

How woulld you feel if I concluded from my survey of 1, that all universalists are morons?

enjoy

[BChristianK]

I Way said:

Shunning the sexually immoral is the godly response, yet you judge against Clete for his goodness in obey God.


So you assert.

Was not this also the response Jesus had to answer in Mark 9:4?

Matthew 9:10-11 Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"


Then you quote:




Pr 6:18 These six [things] the LORD hates, Yes, seven [are] an abomination to Him: 17 A proud look, A lying tongue, Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies, And one who sows discord among brethren.


First, if what you mean by quoting this verse is that I, by disagreeing with Clete Phipher, have sown discord among the brethren. Then I would say that we need to apply this verse equitably and without bias.

If what you mean by this verse is that anytime anyone who is a Christian disagrees with someone else who is a Christian, that is tantamount to sowing discord among the brethren, then you should beg Knight to shut down all debate on TOL between Christians and use the forums previously used for healthy debate for posting apologies, since every Christian who has ever disagreed with another Christian is guilty, according to your interpretation of this verse, of sowing discord among the brethren. And a cursory look at the interchanges between you and Freak show that you aren't exempt from this.

If this isn’t what you mean, but rather you are operating under the assumption that you are absolutely right in your assessment of the treatment of all homosexuals, and then, based upon your conclusion, feel as it if is your duty to straighten a brother out using Proverbs 6:19 as the rod, then you must be consistent and admit that if it is you who are incorrect, in your interpretation of the verse you are about to use as a proof text, then it is you who are sowing discord among the brethren.

Se before we start using proverbs 6:16 as a billy-club, why don’t we engage in some healthy discussion regarding your proof text.


1Co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner——not even to eat with such a person.
Don’t be nicer than God. Shun sexual immorality, abhor evil, cling to what is good.

Notice that this verse has a qualifier.

First, it says do not keep company with any brother who is sexually immoral. Lets take add a little context, shall we?


I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. (1 Corinthians 5:9-10, NIV)

Paul says he did not mean that we are to shun the immoral people of this world completely for then we would have to go out of the world. He is saying that for those who claim to be brothers, but who are in willful rebellion to the standards of Christian behavior regarding sexuality, they should not be included in the fellowship of the believers.

It is quite possible, and likely in my opinion due to verse 7, that what Paul is saying isn’t, don’t “you ever be eatin’ in the same room with no homo’s!” But rather, that the customary meal that followed the gatherings of the saints is in view (verse 7), during which the Lord’s Supper was practices. This supper should not be accompanied by believers who practice homosexual behavior. Which makes sense to me, Paul didn’t want the outside world to be confused on where Christians stand on issues of moral purity. But that is a point of interpretation.


However, what is not a point of interpretation was Paul’s admonition about judging those outside the church?

For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges.

So if Clete meant that he only refused to associate with a homosexual who claim to be Christian who, despite the admonition of fellow brothers for him to reconsider his behavior, persists in homosexual behavior. Then Clete is totally in the right to disassociate with such a person and exclude him from the Lord’s Supper, and possibly, to refuse to be around him at all.

If that is what Clete mean't, then I have misunderstood his point, and applogize for that misunderstanding.

But based on his statement:


All I can do is post on this web site and shun as many homos as I come in contact with.

It doesn't appear as if I have misunderstood him.

It appears that Clete is passing judgment on all homosexuals, even those outside the church. If that is the case, then he, or you since you have taken up the cause of defending him, needs to explain why Paul clearly doesn't as is evident by verse 10 and verse 13.
Finally, I would ask that you not count your chicken before they are hatched and refrain from using Proverbs 6:19 as a judgement text against others until you can remove all doubt that you have not overshot the aim of 1 Corinthians 5:11, and find that it is pointed at you.


Grace and Peace

[Clete]

Originally posted by Cyrus of Persia

You state it as "fact", not as insult that i am idiot?


Actually, what I said was...
You are truly being an idiot. And I say that as a point of fact, not simply to be insulting."

I meant it to be both. It is, after all, difficult to call someone an idiot without insulting them. In fact, the "point of fact" remark did very little except to make it even more insulting. I suppose that this post has also had a similar effect.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Cyrus of Persia]

1Way,

i'm sorry, but if you lack of understanding what i write, i cannot help you.

[prufrock]

God is the best that can be. It is what each of us wants to be someday. We aspire to flourish and to have ultimate influence. Over time this aspiration has led to feelings of guilt, because humans realize that their lifes are fleeting and they won't always have influence. So in hopes to extend this influence, they have concieved of eternal gods which also possess their aspirations. These God concepts have developed with communities and Become representations of the moral code of a tribe, society, nation, etc.

This is all that can be known about god through speculation. You will say that your God has been revealed. This may be so, but to me that is only speculation. Until God reveals God to me in a way that I can understand, It will not be a revelation to me. Only heresay. You are free to pray for me that God would reveal God to me in a way I can understand. Maybe he already has and I just havne't realized it yet, so there is hope, i suppose.

As for this thread, perhaps our mistake is taking the Bible to be the Word of God...hmmm.

I'm not trying to flame here, but I think that everyone is using not the bible as their moral absolute, but their own moral code? How else does everyone come to such discordant thoughts?

Now you will say that what "I think" doesn't really matter. The bible matters. No actually, you think the Bible matters. I think it's just a tool to satisfy what your moral compass has already set its sights on. You will tell me I am wrong. I say that you are only telling me that you think I am wrong. you will say I'm a relativist.

I will say this about myself and what I believe: I hope that a good exists and that I may live it...but I have no idea what this means and maybe I just hope that I will exist so that I may experience what is good. Of course I may not have a choice in the matter and find myself chained in hell when I die, but if I do, I will do my best to get the hell out of there. If I know one thing, it's that burning sucks.

[smaller]

Well thanks for PAYING ATTENTION Lightson. I am not inclined to do the reasearch but would expect that someone already has. Perhaps beanieboy KNOWs such things...

Those "fundies" who DO have "gay" children MIGHT be inclined to "change" their minds on this particular issue eh? I know many fundie brothers and sisters of "gay" people who LIGHTENED up on this issue when it was DROPPED into their LAPS...

We'll also NEVER KNOW the real answer to the supposed "survey" 'cause every MaN is a liar in his own behalf...

I'd also bet that there are more GAY in the Catholic Clergy than in all other clergy in all other denominations combined....wanna bet?

Anyway WHILE you bothered to READ the post DID the observation go WITHOUT NOTICE???

That a FIRST HAND experience with such "issues" forces changes usually to the LIBERAL side???

I'd like to see more "christians" take a little dip in the Lake O...you know...give 'em a taste of their own "medicine."

I have always been of the opinion that if I was TOO opinionated against something that it could possibly come home to rest upon me as well...just for good measure.

therefore I try to tread LIGHTly...

enjoy!

smaller

[servent101]

Smallertherefore I try to tread LIGHTly...

This is appreciated, and for a Bible Only kind of guy - you do well in your interpretation of the closed canon of Christian Scripture.

You do not suffer the nerousis of other Christians who have to somehow deal with the God of the Hell Fire and Brimstone eternal flesh searing painful - and I mean painful hurt people who do not hold to the same apologetics as the fundies do - how do they deal with that? - well you don't have to have your psychie disturbed by such lunacy - lucky you, and you do not defame the Good and Holy Name of the Father... again lucky you... and blessed are those who hear the Good News from you.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Clete]

Originally posted by prufrock
Now you will say that what "I think" doesn't really matter. The bible matters. No actually, you think the Bible matters. I think it's just a tool to satisfy what your moral compass has already set its sights on. You will tell me I am wrong. I say that you are only telling me that you think I am wrong.

Actually, you are wrong, but not for the reason you suggest.
The fact is that the Bible either matters or it is completely total worthless insanity. Your wishy-washy in the middle crap is not an option.
The entire Bible from front to back is about Jesus Christ who said things like you have to forsake you mother and father and follow me. He was a man who claimed to be God. The Bible reports that Jesus was murdered and then He rose from the dead and ascended to the Father to sit at His right hand. These things and several others leave no middle ground for you to stand upon. They are either true or they are not. If these things are not true then Jesus was a liar and a lunatic and needs very much to be forgotten. If, on the other hand, they are true then you are in fact hell bound, the lunatic ranting of smaller not withstanding and I can assure you that Hell does a lot more than suck. How does burning forever in solitary confinement strike you?
Oh, and as for trying to get out, one of your fellow unbelievers once rightly observed…
(Hell) “…is programmed to receive;
You can check out any time you like but you can never leave.”

Resting in Him,
Clete

[smaller]

Well Clete, you SINLESS GOD ACTIVATORS have nothing to be concerned about eh?

The trouble is you should be able to stand up to your own ridiculous doctrines...fortunately you CANNOT.

Were I to even try to HONESTLY use you "SINLESS GOD ACTIVATORS" doctrines honesty could force me to acknowledge that ALL PEOPLE are going to burn in hell forever and YOU would be the FIRST in line.

go figure....

Yet you cling to what logically destroys ALL. Doctrines of devils for SURE...

double figures...

[LightSon]

Originally posted by smaller

.... you SINLESS GOD ACTIVATORS have nothing to be concerned about eh?


Our hope is built on nothing less,
than Jesus' blood and righteousness.

In Christ and Him alone is life eternal. I pray that someday you will stop trampling on Jesus' finished work to save us.

[smaller]

Trampling Jesus' finished work???

Who's leg are you pulling?

How many people have you damned to eternal punishment TODAY in your HEAD or HEART? You don't think He did a THING except for you and a "few" in the "pew" IF they happened to agree with you. (fat chance)

Face up to the TRUTH light(is darkness)son. Your "god" is only as good as YOU are.

and HEY, don't forget to condemn me to eternal torture Mr. Chicken. If you're gonna "live" in your junk doctrines THEN own up to them.

[Duder]

Profruck -
God is the best that can be. It is what each of us wants to be someday. We aspire to flourish and to have ultimate influence. Over time this aspiration has led to feelings of guilt, because humans realize that their lifes are fleeting and they won't always have influence. So in hopes to extend this influence, they have concieved of eternal gods which also possess their aspirations. These God concepts have developed with communities and Become representations of the moral code of a tribe, society, nation, etc.

This is all that can be known about god through speculation. You will say that your God has been revealed. This may be so, but to me that is only speculation. Until God reveals God to me in a way that I can understand, It will not be a revelation to me. Only heresay. You are free to pray for me that God would reveal God to me in a way I can understand. Maybe he already has and I just havne't realized it yet, so there is hope, i suppose.

As for this thread, perhaps our mistake is taking the Bible to be the Word of God...hmmm.

I'm not trying to flame here, but I think that everyone is using not the bible as their moral absolute, but their own moral code? How else does everyone come to such discordant thoughts?

Now you will say that what "I think" doesn't really matter. The bible matters. No actually, you think the Bible matters. I think it's just a tool to satisfy what your moral compass has already set its sights on. You will tell me I am wrong. I say that you are only telling me that you think I am wrong. you will say I'm a relativist.

I will say this about myself and what I believe: I hope that a good exists and that I may live it...but I have no idea what this means and maybe I just hope that I will exist so that I may experience what is good. Of course I may not have a choice in the matter and find myself chained in hell when I die, but if I do, I will do my best to get the hell out of there. If I know one thing, it's that burning sucks.

Yes, I do the same myself when I read the Bible. I find what I expect to find based on my preconceptions of what the Book has to say. The Bible is like those, wudduya -call-em, ink blots that psychologists use. What you see when you look at it is largely a matter of temperment.

[prufrock]

Well, I actually like reading some C.S. Lewis. His thoughts on pride seem to have more sense to them than much of the bible, which goes in one direction for a book and then changes it's mind in the next. However, his Lord, Liar, Lunatic trilemma is not complete. For instance, what about misrepresentation? could he not have been a great teacher whose teachings were manipulated and deified by some dissatisfied Jews? It is possible.

Oh and thanks for the veiled threat wishing to do away with me forever in hell. I'm glad you are not God. Of course I don't believe it as you do, what with the torture pits and fire. If there are souls, they will have to go somewhere, but it's purely conjecture as far as I'm concerned to describe such a place.

[prufrock]

And what's so bad about the middle? Moderation, dear fellow, moderation.

[Lighthouse]

Cyrus-
Homosexuality is a sin. And sin is sin. It doesn't matter what time period, or what the birth rate is. It is a sick, disgusting, vile, putrid, perverted [I could go on for a long time] act. And God has called it exactly what it is, an abomination! That's the bottom line. And I agree that those who commit abominations deserve to die for such acts, but I also know that repentance can save them. All they have to do is accept the grace God has given. If they do not, it is their funeral.

[1Way]

BChristianK – You quoted me saying Shunning the sexually immoral is the godly response, yet you judge against Clete for his goodness in obeying God. and you responded saying So you assert.

Was not this also the response Jesus had to answer in Mark 9:4?
Matthew 9:10-11 Then it happened that as Jesus was reclining at the table in the house, behold, many tax collectors and sinners came and were dining with Jesus and His disciples. 11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?" It’s what the bible says, I hardly call that an assertion like a claim, I call in an observation or fact. If you disagree that it is a godly response to obey what God teaches according to my reference, then please say why instead of just raising attention to some other teaching. My citation is most suitable for was those who self profess to be within the body of Christ yet are grossly immoral. Your example is assumed to be among unsaved people. You need to consider the context better, the differences matter.

Then you quote me quoting the Proverbs passage where God explains what He hates, you say First, (1) if what you mean by quoting this verse is that I, by disagreeing with Clete Phipher, have sown discord among the brethren. Then I would say that we need to apply this verse equitably and without bias.

(2) If what you mean by this verse is that anytime anyone who is a Christian disagrees with someone else who is a Christian, that is tantamount to sowing discord among the brethren, then you should beg Knight to shut down all debate on TOL between Christians and use the forums previously used for healthy debate for posting apologies, since every Christian who has ever disagreed with another Christian is guilty, according to your interpretation of this verse, of sowing discord among the brethren. And a cursory look at the interchanges between you and Freak show that you aren't exempt from this.

(3) If this isn’t what you mean, but rather you are operating under the assumption that you are absolutely right in your assessment of the treatment of all homosexuals, and then, based upon your conclusion, feel as it if is your duty to straighten a brother out using Proverbs 6:19 as the rod, then you must be consistent and admit that if it is you who are incorrect, in your interpretation of the verse you are about to use as a proof text, then it is you who are sowing discord among the brethren.

(4) Se before we start using proverbs 6:16 as a billy-club, why don’t we engage in some healthy discussion regarding your proof text.

(1) No, it’s because of disagreeing with God and or the truth of a matter that I would site causing strife and such. You tried to contradict the excommunication passage by referencing the “Jesus ate with the sinners and tax collectors” passage. But God’s word does not contradict itself, both passages are true for their own separate reasons. Yes, we should be consistent with our judgments, as well as be right with them too.

(2) That is just ridiculous. You are dragging the conversation below reasonable and intellectual levels.

(3) That is an unreasonable assumption. The tenor of this debate from both sides of the discussion is that God’s word is right and authoritative and as such invokes the reasonable assumption that both parties are (to some extent) adherents thereof. So I am simply addressing the grossly immoral who include themselves as having a righteous belief in the word of God (believers in God) and needs to be excommunicated because of it.

(4) No, I used it as God intended, as one who is offering the truth from God. As for proof texting, I dispatched your false notion of trying to contradict my reference with another. You have no standing to charge me with proof texting, I accept the entire word of God as being His word and that it does not have problem texts. As such, I am simply offering God’s word, no proof texting need apply. Your misuse of God’s word fairly evident in that tried to void the meaning of the excommunication teaching by the “Jesus ate with sinners” teaching. You are the one who needs to stand corrected for mishandling what you think is a proof text for you view, but was not.

You sited the following 1Co 5:9 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat. and then you said: (5) It is quite possible, and likely in my opinion due to verse 7, that what Paul is saying isn’t, don’t “you ever be eatin’ in the same room with no homo’s!” But rather, that the customary meal that followed the gatherings of the saints is in view (verse 7), during which the Lord’s Supper was practices. This supper should not be accompanied by believers who practice homosexual behavior. Which makes sense to me, (6) Paul didn’t want the outside world to be confused on where Christians stand on issues of moral purity. But that is a point of interpretation.

(5) I wouldn’t insert homosexuality or any other capitol offense in there. God is clear to put them to death, so shunning would not apply to the homo. Shunning only applies if you do not have the option of capitol offense.

(6) God, not just Paul, wanted everyone, not just the outside world to not be confused about absolute right and wrong. Everything is a point of interpretation if you can place any doubt about the truth of a matter.

You go on to say However, what is not a point of interpretation was Paul’s admonition about judging those outside the church? For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13 But those who are outside, God judges. So if Clete meant that he only refused to associate with a homosexual who claim to be Christian who, despite the admonition of fellow brothers for him to reconsider his behavior, persists in homosexual behavior. Then Clete is totally in the right to disassociate with such a person and exclude him from the Lord’s Supper, and possibly, to refuse to be around him at all.

If that is what Clete mean't, then I have misunderstood his point, and applogize for that misunderstanding.

But based on his statement: All I can do is post on this web site and shun as many homos as I come in contact with. It doesn't appear as if I have misunderstood him.

It appears that Clete is passing judgment on all homosexuals, even those outside the church. If that is the case, then he, or you since you have taken up the cause of defending him, needs to explain why Paul clearly doesn't as is evident by verse 10 and verse 13.
Finally, I would ask that you not count your chicken before they are hatched and refrain from using Proverbs 6:19 as a judgement text against others until you can remove all doubt that you have not overshot the aim of 1 Corinthians 5:11, and find that it is pointed at you. Misjudging God’s word again. All capitol offenders are to be rejected and excommunicated, they are worse than just being sexually immoral, in fact, they are supposed to be excommunicated from life for good.

Secondly, God’s word is teaching through the writings of Paul by drawing a distinction over what issue? It’s over who to accept as being a professing believer, and it is concerning that issue that Paul eliminates the rest of the world from this type of personal judgment because they are not “accountable” to the brethren for their morality in the same way that fellow believers are, the unsaved world is accountable just as everyone ultimately is, to God. But believers have an extra layer of accountability, which is the issue at hand, not otherwise.

There are many of other teachings that do not impose restrictions upon believers in Christ to righteously judge against the world. In fact, that is step one for a righteous evangelization of the lost, the message of God’s condemnation against them unless they repent and get saved, and that you as a personal representative of God also judge against them that they should go to hell unless they repent and get saved.

God is the ultimate judge, yet God thought it wise and good to delegate all judgment unto Jesus Christ, and Jesus Christ and the Word of God says that the saints will judge the world and that if you are spiritual, you judge all things. Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn [who are] registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Joh 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,

1Co 6:1 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world will be judged by you, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?

1Co 2:15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is [rightly] judged by no one.

Joh 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment." Again we see in 1Co that God is teaching a teaching for how to judge within the brethren, yet this time, as part of the reasoning for why we should do so within ourselves, God teaches that it is partly because the unbelieving world is so bad off, that they should be disqualified to judge such matters, after all, we will be judging them and the angels, and how much more so Christians should be judging the things in this life. So by taking in a wider context, it is plain that believers are to judge “everything” with righteous judgment, but when it comes to gross immorality, we hold “professing believers” to an unique accountability that the rest of the world does not share between Christians.

Christians, nor anyone who assumes or grants the name of Jesus for righteousness (i.e. trust in the scriptures for righteousness) are not islands unto themselves who can do and say whatever they please, we are subject to each other in terms of moral accountability. At the same time, we are to judge against sin and evil and wickedness and immorality, those are matters of absolute right and wrong, everyone is included.
Shunning is challenged in favor of acceptance and a call to repent//shunning is right to the extent that the immoral one assumes faith or righteousness in God
Homosexuality should be assumed in the excommunication teaching//it should be assumed as a capitol offense
You suggested that believers are only supposed to judge against (excommunicate) other believers//but you who are spiritual are to judge all things with righteous judgment, we will judge the unsaved world and the angels, so how much more we should be judging things in this life. I agree that not all homo’s should be treated the same. If you are a homo that is a self professing believer in God (site God and His word for righteousness), you should be personally rejected for