ARGH!!! Calvinism makes me furious!!!

[Knight]

OK… I gotta vent.

I try to be calm and I try to be patient with those that credit bad things to God via Calvinistic theology. But there are some times I simply can’t be patient or cordial because this twisted sick, perverted theology is sometimes too much to handle.

Today I was listening to a Christian station on the radio. And there was a public service spot which featured a woman explaining a heart wrenching story. She explained that she was diagnosed with Leukemia on her child’s first birthday. She explained that she was treated with intense chemotherapy. She went on to say that she was comforted by God (which of course is fantastic). But then she said that God have given her the cancer so God would also give her the strength to get through it.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shocked:

Can you imagine that?

Can you imagine a women actual thinking that God had given her cancer???

That is just plain sick!

What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world? What ever happened to placing the responsibility for bad things with mankind? So now God is a disease dispenser? :confused:

People are just plain stupid.

:dunce:

[Knight]

P.S. Please note that this thread is in the "Exclusively Christian Theology" forum so if you are coming in here to mock God please think otherwise.

I would rather discuss this concept from a Christian or biblical stance.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.

[Melody]

What's to discuss?

I worked ICU for many years and 90 % of my patient's were there because of drug, alcohol, tobacco, or food abuse.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Melody

What's to discuss?

I guess nothing. :(

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Knight

What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world? Yeah, but the rebellion and sin were all part of the big plan.

But wait... if God's will was to force man to rebel, then the rebellion wasn't really a rebellion at all.

And sin (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sin) is defined as "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God." But Calvinists claim to know that all sin is God's will. :dizzy:

[Christine]

Originally posted by Turbo

Yeah, but the rebellion and sin were all part of the big plan.
Yep, they were. :)

But wait... if God's will was to force man to rebel, then the rebellion wasn't really a rebellion at all.
Huh? Man is still responsible for his actions, including sin.

And sin (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sin) is defined as "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God." But Calvinists claim to know that all sin is God's will. :dizzy:
The sin may have been predestined, but man is still held responsible for that sin.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Christine
The sin may have been predestined, but man is still held responsible for that sin.

Why?

Why would God want to have Jesus (through whom all things were made) experience such a horrible painful death? What was the point? Everything was going fine until Eve dropped the ball.

[Rolf Ernst]

Knight--concerning post #1 on this thread: I guess you never read the book of Job. it is filled with Job's afflictions, and numerous times through it, Job ascribes his toubles to God's determinations concerning him. "For He performs the thing that is appointed for me..." (this is only one of MANY references wherein Job confesses God's absolute, all encompassing providential rule over him)

Maybe you never read Ephesians either, because it says that God works ALL things after the counsel of His own will.

Oops! Must have missed Romans also, because what Paul speaks there is in strict accord with Job and Ephesians--"For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever"(11:36"

Oh no! You also missed Daniel: "He does according to His will in the army of heaven AND AMONG THE INHABITANTS OF THE EARTH, and none can stay His hand or say unto Him, what are you doing."

And the Psalms--"whatsoever the LORD pleased that did He in heaven and in earth, in the seas and all deep places."

And besides these, you missed a number of places in Scripture which state clearly that god afflicts people with illnesses.

Well, Knight, if you read the Bible carefully through again, maybe you won't miss so much next time.

[Granite]

"Bad things" happen on God's watch, because of him, and with his approval.

I don't know what's worse: the idea that such things such as cancer or the Holocaust take him by surprise, or being forced to acknowledge that such events are part of The Masterplan.

[Rolf Ernst]

Turbo--in post #5, you say, "...if God's will was to force man to rebel..."

That is a prime example of the way you arminians never dare deal with Scripture honestly as you struggle against God's sovereignty.

Let me see you back up your idea that God "forced" man to rebel. You won't find your arrogant ascription of such a thing to God in scripture, nor will you find such foolish prattle from a person of reformed persuasion.

EITHER BACK UP YOUR ABOMINABLE SPEECH OR ELSE APOLOGISE.

[Rolf Ernst]

A major problem with Arminians--they never stop trying to fit God into the small mold which they imagine for Him.

Any scripture which rebukes their foolishness is just overlooked. For some reason, they have never grown up enough theologically to desire a view of scripture which can reconcile all scriptures together without contradiction.

They are more like Job's three friends who blamed his illness on Job's wickedness than they are like Job who ascribed his afflictions to God.
Nevertheless, in the end, God rebuked Job's friends rather than Job.

[Clete]

Rolf Ernst,

Turbo and Knight are not Arminian.

Arminian's are too Calvinistic for them (and me, by the way)!

[Granite]

I just imagine both sides dying, going to heaven, and getting ushered into a classroom. "Hey! Hey, folks! New arrivals! Attention please. Yeeeah. Great. Hey, can I have a show of hands? You TULIP guys? Five pointers? Even four and a half pointers, yeah, over there. Form a line. Super. And you folks? Rest of you? Over here please. Yeeep. Yeah, see, we've got some explaining to do."

Either DEPROGRAMMING FOR FREEWILLERS or DECONSTRUCTING CALVIN. One way or another, SOMEONE will have some re-education to go through...

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world? What ever happened to placing the responsibility for bad things with mankind?
No one is saying that mankind has no responsibility, or that we do not do "bad things". Every Calvinists I know would agree with you on that one. And I think that's where a lot of confusion and "straw men" are drawn by the OV'ers/Arminians. They do not understand that we (Calvinists) believe man is responsible, and yet, God is absolutely Sovereign as well. Scriptures teach both.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Rolf Ernst,

Turbo and Knight are not Arminian.

Arminian's are too Calvinistic for them (and me, by the way)!
What's the difference? You both believe in free-will and that God can be "frustrated" and His will thwarted (although Scripture plainly tells us otherwise).

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Why?

Why would God want to have Jesus (through whom all things were made) experience such a horrible painful death? What was the point?
To display His glory and love. The act was done to self-exalt Himself. As a bonus, we who are chosen are saved. But that is done to glorify Himself as well.

Eph 1:5, 9
...having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ... having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself...

Php 2:13
...for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

Heb 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Romans 11:36
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen.

[Christine]

Zman, just curious, do you consider yourself a Calvinist?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Christine

Zman, just curious, do you consider yourself a Calvinist?
In the words of Jonathan Edwards, who said in the Preface to his great book on THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL:

"I should not take it at all amiss, to be called a Calvinist, for distinction's sake: though I utterly disclaim a dependence on Calvin, or believing the doctrines which I hold, because he believed and taught them; and cannot justly be charged with believing in every thing just as he taught."

By the way, I find your signature very amusing! :chuckle:

[Christine]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Why?

Why would God want to have Jesus (through whom all things were made) experience such a horrible painful death? What was the point? Everything was going fine until Eve dropped the ball.
The point of Jesus's death? To be a sacrifice for the elect.

[Christine]

Originally posted by Z Man

In the words of Jonathan Edwards, who said in the Preface to his great book on THE FREEDOM OF THE WILL:

"I should not take it at all amiss, to be called a Calvinist, for distinction's sake: though I utterly disclaim a dependence on Calvin, or believing the doctrines which I hold, because he believed and taught them; and cannot justly be charged with believing in every thing just as he taught."
So, does this mean you're a full 5-pointer? :)

By the way, I find your signature very amusing! :chuckle:
Thanks. He really said that, too.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Christine

The point of Jesus's death? To be a sacrifice for the elect.
Not only was His death a sacrifice, but it also saved! But here's a question: Why did He die for the elect? Why save anyone?

Answer: To display His glory. All things exist and are done for this exact purpose. It's the reason we exist and the reason all things happen; to glorify God.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Christine

So, does this mean you're a full 5-pointer? :)
Yes.
Thanks. He really said that, too.
That doesn't surprise me. And that's why it is funny... :D

[Christine]

Originally posted by Z Man

Not only was His death a sacrifice, but it also saved! But here's a question: Why did He die for the elect? Why save anyone?

Answer: To display His glory. All things exist and are done for this exact purpose. It's the reason we exist and the reason all things happen; to glorify God.
Z Man- You answer so much better than I. :thumb:

[Christine]

Originally posted by Z Man

Yes.

:thumb: So, am I. Hopefully, I can learn some from reading your posts.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Christine

The point of Jesus's death? To be a sacrifice for the elect.

Would there need to be an "elect" if Eve hadn't invited sin and death into the world?

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

What's the difference? You both believe in free-will and that God can be "frustrated" and His will thwarted (although Scripture plainly tells us otherwise).

Arminians do not believe this. And no the Scripture teaches just the reverse.

[Christine]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Would there need to be an "elect" if Eve hadn't invited sin and death into the world?
Did Eve invite sin and death into the world?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Would there need to be an "elect" if Eve hadn't invited sin and death into the world?
That's a moot point to argue. The fact is, it happened exactly the way God planned.

Revelations 13:8
All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

1Peter 1:20
He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man
To display His glory. All things exist and are done for this exact purpose. It's the reason we exist and the reason all things happen; to glorify God.

In what way does the act of raping a five year old boy who dies a week later due to a swollen brain that was caused by the severe violent shaking inflicted as his attacker performed his crime glorify God?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Arminians do not believe this.
What? In free-will?
And no the Scripture teaches just the reverse.
About God's will being thwarted??? :confused: In case you haven't read your Bible lately, may I show you the error of your words:

Job 42:1-2
Then Job answered the Lord: "I know that thou can do all things, and that no will of yours can be thwarted."

Psalm 115:3; 135:6
Our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.

Whatever the Lord pleases He does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Is 14:24,27; 46:9-11; 55:11
The Lord of Hosts has sworn: "As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand....For the Lord of Hosts has purposed, and who will make it void? His hand is stretched out, and who will turn it back?"


"Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My council shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose, calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my council from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it.' "


"So shall my Word be that goes forth from my mouth; it shall not return to me void, but is shall accomplish that which I purpose, and prosper in the things for which I sent it."

Jer 32:17
" ' Ah Lord God! It is thou who has made the heavens and the earth by thy great power and by thy outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for thee.' "

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing; and He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay His hand or say to Him, "What are you doing?"

Matt 19:26
...with God all things are possible.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Turbo

Yeah, but the rebellion and sin were all part of the big plan.

But wait... if God's will was to force man to rebel, then the rebellion wasn't really a rebellion at all.

And sin (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sin) is defined as "Deliberate disobedience to the known will of God." But Calvinists claim to know that all sin is God's will. :dizzy: Wow.... "JoBethian" theology to a "T". :D

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

In what way does the act of raping a five year old boy who dies a week later due to a swollen brain that was caused by the severe violent shaking inflicted as his attacker performed his crime glorify God?

Resting in Him,
Clete
Ask Job...

[Knight]

Did Rolf call me an Arminian?????

:chuckle:

[Z Man]

Arminian, Ov'ers.... What's the difference? You both believe in a God less glorified...

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

Arminian, Ov'ers.... What's the difference? You both believe in a God less glorified... Z Man did God give the woman on the radio her cancer?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Z Man did God give the woman on the radio her cancer?
Who else could it of been?

Did God give Job his afflictions? Did God give Egypt thier plagues? Did God blind Zach, the father of John? Did God blind Paul? Did God cripple all those people that Jesus had to heal? Does God not do these things to be glorified?

[Hilston]

Hi Knight,

I can sympathize with your frustration, but from a different perspective, of course.

Knight writes: I try to be calm and I try to be patient with those that credit bad things to God via Calvinistic theology.I also try to be calm and patient with those who seem to have no problem with God not stopping a couple of planes from killing thousands of people.

Knight writes: She went on to say that she was comforted by God (which of course is fantastic). But then she said that God have given her the cancer so God would also give her the strength to get through it.I agree that this is a horrible distortion, but not for the same reason. The reason the woman developed cancer is possibly genetic, or possibly environment, and most likely a combination of both. God did not give her cancer. She acquired it quite naturally, without any special divine intervention. However, God did in fact decree that she would have cancer, and that she would ignorantly distort the facts concerning Him. God also controls meticulously every cancer cell in her body, holding their atomic structure together, maintaining their existence and preventing them from obliterating.

Knight writes: What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world? What ever happened to placing the responsibility for bad things with mankind?Both are good points. But it should be said that the Calvinistic view does not (should not) assign responsibility to God for bad things, or for anything for that matter. Responsibility implies accountability, and God answers to no one for anything He does or for anything He has decreed.

Clete writes:In what way does the act of raping a five year old boy who dies a week later due to a swollen brain that was caused by the severe violent shaking inflicted as his attacker performed his crime glorify God?My question is how does the Open Theist worship a god who would not prevent this from happening?

Along those same lines, here's a question for the Open Theists: Surely God could see what was transpiring as the 9/11 terrorists prepared to kill thousands of people. Would it have been against your theology for God to have figured out some way to prevent them from getting on those planes? (e.g. traffic jam? food poisoning? falling-piano or guardrail?) If yes, why? If no, why wouldn't God do everything He could to stop that tragedy?

Thanks,
Jim

PS: Knight -- I (finally) have another editorial cartoon coming -- soon. Cheers.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

What's the difference? You both believe in free-will and that God can be "frustrated" and His will thwarted (although Scripture plainly tells us otherwise). Oh really?

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

"disdained all my counsel"??? How can that be Z Man? God's word contradicts your word plain and simple.

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Thwarting God's will is a theme that runs through the entire Bible Z Man. After all... that's why we need Jesus!

Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

How is that we could resist the Holy Spirit if we have no will of our own?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

Who else could it of been?

Did God give Job his afflictions? Did God give Egypt thier plagues? Did God blind Zach, the father of John? Did God blind Paul? Did God cripple all those people that Jesus had to heal? Does God not do these things to be glorified? Oh yea, yea... I forgot....

And God murdered 6 million Jews and He flew planes into the World Trade Center..... God did all of that to glorify Himself. :vomit:

John the Baptist, Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Mother Theresa they are all the same aren't they? All perfectly fulfilling God's will to glorify Himself right?

Right????

:rolleyes:

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Oh yea, yea... I forgot....

And God murdered 6 million Jews and He flew planes into the World Trade Center..... God did all of that to glorify Himself. :vomit:

John the Baptist, Adolf Hitler, Charles Manson, Mother Theresa they are all the same aren't they? All perfectly fulfilling God's will to glorify Himself right?

Right????

:rolleyes:
If you think you're any better than Hitler, you have a lot of spiritul "growing" to do....

[Knight]

Originally posted by Hilston

PS: Knight -- I (finally) have another editorial cartoon coming -- soon. Cheers. Hey Jim! Good to see ya!

I love your cartoons! Keep them coming! :D

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Oh really?

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

"disdained all my counsel"??? How can that be Z Man? God's word contradicts your word plain and simple.

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Thwarting God's will is a theme that runs through the entire Bible Z Man. After all... that's why we need Jesus!

Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

How is that we could resist the Holy Spirit if we have no will of our own?
Unless you figure out another way to interpret those Scriptures, you either

a) Believe the Word of God is contridictory (refer to the passages of Scriptures I presented earlier)

b) Totally ignore the passages that speak plainly and clearly about the soveriengty of God and how His will is never "frustrated", or thwarted

Which is it?

[Clete]

ZMan,

The whole Bible is filled with one story after another about people NOT doing what God wants them to do. In places it says explicitly that people reject the will of God.
To give just one example...
Luke 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.”

And Arminians do believe as do Calvinists that God cannot be frustrated or His will thrwarted. In this regard they are even less intellectually consistant than Calvinists.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. You know perfectly well that I have read my Bible and knew every one of you supposed proof texts. I know your own arguments better than you do. Nothing you posted requires a belief that God has predestined every single event that will ever occure. Every one of your verses, I freely accept as meaning what they say within their intended contect, and that they in no way conflict with the all the other hundreds of passages that directly indicate the reverse of what Calvinism teaches.
Can you say the same? Even for my one single verse?
Do you believe that Luke 7:30 means what it says? If not, please explain to our audience how Luke 7:30 doesn't mean what it clearly says but rather it means precisely the opposite of what it says. That of course it wasn't really God's will that the Pharsisees get baptized by John. That's clearly what the text says, but that's not what it means. Please, by all means, explain that to us.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

If you think you're any better than Hitler, you have a lot of spiritul "growing" to do.... You don't like responding directly do you Z Man?

That's OK, I can understand why. Your theology is embarrassing. To embarrassing to flaunt in public without skirting the issue.

But hey..... God asked me to defend Him against the likes of you and I will until my dying day.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.

"Let no one say...."

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Ask Job...


No sir! I am asking you!

You said, "All things exist and are done for this exact purpose. It's the reason we exist and the reason all things happen; to glorify God.", not Job!

I would like an answer!

In what way does the act of raping a five year old boy who dies a week later due to a swollen brain that was caused by the severe violent shaking inflicted as his attacker performed his crime glorify God?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Hilston]

By the way, gang, there's a difference between God's will being thwarted and someone resisting the Holy Spirit. The former refers to what He has decreed. The latter refers to rebellion in people. God decrees rebellion, and that decree cannot be thwarted. Judas could not resist the decrees of God, nor did he want to. We are all slaves to our natures, preferences, proclivities and circumstances -- and in some cases, slaves to the righteousness of Christ. You never choose what you do not want to choose. Ever.

Jim

[Hilston]

Clete, whilst you're awaiting Zman's answer, I wonder if you might take a stab at the questions I asked.

I wrotes: My question is how does the Open Theist worship a god who would not prevent this from happening?

And ...

Along those same lines, here's a question for the Open Theists: Surely God could see what was transpiring as the 9/11 terrorists prepared to kill thousands of people. Would it have been against your theology for God to have figured out some way to prevent them from getting on those planes? (e.g. traffic jam? food poisoning? falling-piano or guardrail?) If yes, why? If no, why wouldn't God do everything He could to stop that tragedy?

:j

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

You don't like responding directly do you Z Man?
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Z Man

Did God give Job his afflictions? Did God give Egypt thier plagues? Did God blind Zach, the father of John? Did God blind Paul? Did God cripple all those people that Jesus had to heal? Does God not do these things to be glorified?




Unless you figure out another way to interpret those Scriptures, you either

a) Believe the Word of God is contridictory (refer to the passages of Scriptures I presented earlier)

b) Totally ignore the passages that speak plainly and clearly about the soveriengty of God and how His will is never "frustrated", or thwarted

Which is it?
Why don't YOU directly respond? Eat your own words hypocrite...

[Knight]

Originally posted by Hilston

By the way, gang, there's a difference between God's will being thwarted and someone resisting the Holy Spirit. The former refers to what He has decreed. The latter refers to rebellion in people. God decrees rebellion, and that decree cannot be thwarted. Judas could not resist the decrees of God, nor did he want to. We are all slaves to our natures, preferences, proclivities and circumstances -- and in some cases, slaves to the righteousness of Christ. You never choose what you do not want to choose. Ever.

Jim Jim, the point you are making is irrelevant for IF God predestines EVERYTHING there is no will other than His.

Agreed?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

:rolleyes:

Why don't YOU directly respond? Eat your own words hypocrite... hypocrite????

Ouch!

OK.... I guess I am a hypocrite.

Is there anything I can do about it?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

ZMan,

The whole Bible is filled with one story after another about people NOT doing what God wants them to do. In places it says explicitly that people reject the will of God.
To give just one example...
Luke 7:30 "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.”

And Arminians do believe as do Calvinists that God cannot be frustrated or His will thrwarted. In this regard they are even less intellectually consistant than Calvinists.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. You know perfectly well that I have read my Bible and knew every one of you supposed proof texts. I know your own arguments better than you do. Nothing you posted requires a belief that God has predestined every single event that will ever occure. Every one of your verses, I freely accept as meaning what they say within their intended contect, and that they in no way conflict with the all the other hundreds of passages that directly indicate the reverse of what Calvinism teaches.
Can you say the same? Even for my one single verse?
Do you believe that Luke 7:30 means what it says? If not, please explain to our audience how Luke 7:30 doesn't mean what it clearly says but rather it means precisely the opposite of what it says. That of course it wasn't really God's will that the Pharsisees get baptized by John. That's clearly what the text says, but that's not what it means. Please, by all means, explain that to us.
Clete,

We've been over this before. Remember? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=517258#post517258)

[boogerhead]

quote: "Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

"disdained all my counsel"??? How can that be Z Man? God's word contradicts your word plain and simple."


proverbs 1:24 is refering to wisdom that calls aloud in the street (proverbs 1:20) and makes her speech: ...because i have called and you refused, i stretched out my hand and no one regarded..." this is WISDOM talking here and proverbs 1:20-33 is a warning against rejecting wisdom...

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

hypocrite????

Ouch!

OK.... I guess I am a hypocrite.

Is there anything I can do about it?
You're responsible for your own actions.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

You're responsible for your own actions. I am??? How so?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

I am??? How so?
What do you mean "how so"? As long as you are alive, you are responsible...

[Clete]

Jim!

Where the heck have you been? TOL is way less exciting without Hilston! Great to see you're back!


Originally posted by Hilston
Clete writes:My question is how does the Open Theist worship a god who would not prevent this from happening?

Along those same lines, here's a question for the Open Theists: Surely God could see what was transpiring as the 9/11 terrorists prepared to kill thousands of people. Would it have been against your theology for God to have figured out some way to prevent them from getting on those planes? (e.g. traffic jam? food poisoning? falling-piano or guardrail?) If yes, why? If no, why wouldn't God do everything He could to stop that tragedy?

The short answer is that if people could not do evil they could not do good either. If they could do evil but chose not to then that would be great but love requires volition and volition requires genuine freedom of choice (contingency). If the freedom to do hate and to do wrongly is removed then the ability of love and to do rightly goes with it. Even if the act that would otherwise be considered good is performed, the goodness or rightness of it is meaningless if freedom of choice is discounted.
We therefore worship a God who risks rejection in order to gain a real love relationship with His creation, which was the whole perpose of His creating us to begin with.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Knight]

Z Man says there is no difference between Hitler and John the Baptist after all, according to Z Man they are both equally fulfilling God's will. God is the orchestrator of 9/11 AND the Holocaust. God had James Byrd dragged to death behind a truck and He murdered 161 people in the Oklahoma City bombings.

Can you believe this????

Can you believe a person could think such wicked things about God???

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good, and good evil; Who put darkness for light, and light for darkness; Who put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

[boogerhead]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Knight

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Thwarting God's will is a theme that runs through the entire Bible Z Man. After all... that's why we need Jesus!


read john 5:39...this says "you diligently study the Scriptures because you think that be them you possess eternal life. these are the Scriptures that testitfy about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life." read it in context...Jesus is saying that here He is...that diligently studying doesn't equate eternal life...but through Him we can come to the Father...you can't just read one verse and that's that...you gotta look at it in context...

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

What do you mean "how so"? As long as you are alive, you are responsible... But what can I do within myself to change my ways?

What if God's will is that I be a hypocrite?

Can I thwart His will and repent?????

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

No sir! I am asking you!

You said, "All things exist and are done for this exact purpose. It's the reason we exist and the reason all things happen; to glorify God.", not Job!
Job 42:1-6
Then Job answered the Lord and said: "I know that You can do everything, And that no purpose of Yours can be withheld from You. You asked, 'Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?' Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, Things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, 'I will question you, and you shall answer Me.' "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

Job isn't the only one who realized that all things are done according to His purposes:

Romans 9:22-23
What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory
I would like an answer!

In what way does the act of raping a five year old boy who dies a week later due to a swollen brain that was caused by the severe violent shaking inflicted as his attacker performed his crime glorify God?

Resting in Him,
Clete
Who knows. I'm not God. And neither are you. I think it is very foolish and ignorant and extremely unwise of you to think that God cannot bring any good out of such an act of evil. He sees the big picture. He knows who's lives would be affected through such an ordeal. That's why I said, "Ask Job". I was implying that God put Job through such turmoil and affliction to show and display His glory. Jesus was killed to display the glory of God. God brought plagues upon Egypt (even killed the firstborn of everything, humans included) to display His glory. There are many, many, countless more examples in the Bible of God bringing about calamity to display His glory.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Clete,

We've been over this before. Remember? (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=517258#post517258)

Yes I do remember but we aren't talking about His "Ultimate will" you said that God cannot be frustated and that His will cannot be thwarted. Please explain how Luke 7:30 is consistant with this view or is it you who believe the Bible to be contradictory?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

I just imagine both sides dying, going to heaven, and getting ushered into a classroom. "Hey! Hey, folks! New arrivals! Attention please. Yeeeah. Great. Hey, can I have a show of hands? You TULIP guys? Five pointers? Even four and a half pointers, yeah, over there. Form a line. Super. And you folks? Rest of you? Over here please. Yeeep. Yeah, see, we've got some explaining to do."

Either DEPROGRAMMING FOR FREEWILLERS or DECONSTRUCTING CALVIN. One way or another, SOMEONE will have some re-education to go through...
I definitely have to agree with granite, on this. At least to a degree. I have a problem with people who are strictly one way or the other with Arminianism or Calvinism. I'm more of a middle ground. I do believe that God can afflict people. But I also don't believe God does afflict every disease. I do believe that all things work together for God's will. I believe that He sees bad things coming, but He's not responsible. God is good. He does nothing but good. As He is love, and does nothing but love. If God's going to afflict anyone with something, it's going to be someone that needs to be incapacitated.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

But what can I do within myself to change my ways?

What if God's will is that I be a hypocrite?

Can I thwart His will and repent?????
It's not God's will that you be a hypocrite; that would be your own will. It's not His will that we be filthy sinners; we sin because we want to. It's our will that keeps us from loving God. To repent is not to thwart God's will; rather, repenting is the act of God thwarting our own will, so that we may be free from our own bondage in sin...

[Hilston]

Knight,

You write:Jim, the point you are making is irrelevant for IF God predestines EVERYTHING there is no will other than His.

Agreed?I don't agree. Everyone has a will. The fact that God has decreed in advance every electrical signal in your brain and the reaction of every brain cell to every influence and circumstance in your existence does not preclude the fact that you actually weigh options and choose according to those multifarious influences.

Have you ever chosen an option you did not want to choose?

Jim

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Yes I do remember but we aren't talking about His "Ultimate will" you said that God cannot be frustated and that His will cannot be thwarted. Please explain how Luke 7:30 is consistant with this view or is it you who believe the Bible to be contradictory?

Resting in Him,
Clete
I really do not want to repeat myself. All the answers you look for are in that post I had supplied a link to.

[Hilston]

Knight writes: But what can I do within myself to change my ways?You could repent, if God decreed that for you.

Knight writes: What if God's will is that I be a hypocrite?You would not be able to thwart His will. Nor would you want to.

Knight writes: Can I thwart His will ...No; nor would you want to.

Knight writes:... and repent?????Only if He decreed that for you.

Knight writes:Z Man says there is no difference between Hitler and John the Baptist after all, according to Z Man they are both equally fulfilling God's will.Why didn't God expose Hitler to typhoid or come up with a way to stop him?

Knight writes:God is the orchestrator of 9/11 AND the Holocaust.Why didn't God let the landing gear snap off of one of those planes before takeoff?

Knight writes:God had James Byrd dragged to death behind a truck ...Why didn't God give those cretins a flat tire 5 miles before they even saw Byrd?

Knight writes:... and He murdered 161 people in the Oklahoma City bombings.Why didn't God make sure something happened to that Ryder van? Flat tire? Traffic jam?

According to the Open View, God sat idly by and did nothing, even though He could see it all happening before His very eyes. As the Master Chess Player, certainly He could see it coming, yet He did nothing.

Knight writes:Can you believe this????

Can you believe a person could think such wicked things about God???Indeed.

Jim

[boogerhead]

Originally posted by lighthouse

I definitely have to agree with granite, on this. At least to a degree. I have a problem with people who are strictly one way or the other with Arminianism or Calvinism. I'm more of a middle ground. I do believe that God can afflict people. But I also don't believe God does afflict every disease. I do believe that all things work together for God's will. I believe that He sees bad things coming, but He's not responsible. God is good. He does nothing but good. As He is love, and does nothing but love. If God's going to afflict anyone with something, it's going to be someone that needs to be incapacitated.

often our concept of what is "good" is what is "good for us" or what WE think is in our best interest...
we know from romans 8:28 that God works all things for the good of those who love Him...but what we think is "for our good" isn't really at all...we tend to have a pretty selfish outlook on what is "good"

[Z Man]

Originally posted by boogerhead

often our concept of what is "good" is what is "good for us" or what WE think is in our best interest...
we know from romans 8:28 that God works all things for the good of those who love Him...but what we think is "for our good" isn't really at all...we tend to have a pretty selfish outlook on what is "good"
Indeed. An excellent point BH! :thumb:

1Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

For some reason, many Christians believe that since we are the "children of God" that there is no way He would do us any "harm". How selfish! If He is not willing to spare His own Son from turmoil and afflicition, then why do so many people reject the notion that God afflicts sinful mankind???

[boogerhead]

Originally posted by Z Man

Indeed. An excellent point BH! :thumb:

1Peter 3:17
For it is better, if it is the will of God, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil.

For some reason, many Christians believe that since we are the "children of God" that there is no way He would do us any "harm". How selfish! If He is not willing to spare His own Son from turmoil and afflicition, then why do so many people reject the notion that God afflicts sinful mankind???

exactly...He didn't spare His own Son...and "now if we are chilldren, then we are heirs, heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." romans 8:17

[Lighthouse]

Yeah, I know that what we percieve to be good, is not always what is good. But someone who develops cancer, out of nowhere, and is a good person that lives a good life, then it is not good. God had no reason to give them cancer, therefore He did not give them cancer.

[okinrus]

God allowed the women to have cancer. It's kind of like Job. God did not destroy Job's house but he allowed Satan to. Perhaps this is what she is saying?

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

I really do not want to repeat myself. All the answers you look for are in that post I had supplied a link to.

You didn't explain then and you refuse to explain now.

No surprise really. It cannot be done is a logically coherent way.
The simple fact of the matter is that people do things that God does not want them to do every single day. And that Hell is reserved for those who refuse to glorify God.

I really cannot understand how you and other Calvinist are totally unable to see the totally inconsistent nature of your own belief system. Especially the Jim Hilston style of compatiblism, it is completely self contradictory and obviously so. It's truly as if there is something blinding you guys. Calvinism is so hopelessly self contradictory that it should be the easiest thing in the world to debunk and it is, but it as if there is this wall, or some sort of barrier that prevents many from seeing it. I really don't get it! It's not as if you guys are stupid, you're obviously not! So why is it that you can see that 2+2=7 is not correct but you can't understand that if Knight was hypocritical because there was no other option other than to be hypocritical then to say that he had a choice in the matter is self contradictory! Even if you say he wanted to be hypocritical then that is meaningless because the very fact that he wanted to is itself a predestined unalterable fact, right? It's not as if you guys can say that Knight's personal history has led him down a path that resulted in the evil desire within him that caused him to consciously decide to be hypocritical because you only compound your own logical problem. Everything that Knight has ever thought, or done, or said, or felt, or experienced in any way was not due to his own action but due to God's predestined will being performed. In a Calvinist worldview Knight is a puppet on strings as are we all and to insist that one repent in order to be within God's will is self contradictory and in fact could only be done if God Himself pulled the repent string in His cosmic puppet show. Knight would have no more culpability for his actions than Pinocchio would.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. By the way, I do not actually beleive that Knight was being hypocritical.

[Rolf Ernst]

Peiffer--I guess you never read that the things thatare done by the wicked in darkness should not even be mentioned.

Why do you delight in rolling their gross evils across your own tongue??

[Knight]

Originally posted by Hilston

Knight,

You write:I don't agree. Everyone has a will. The fact that God has decreed in advance every electrical signal in your brain and the reaction of every brain cell to every influence and circumstance in your existence does not preclude the fact that you actually weigh options and choose according to those multifarious influences.

Have you ever chosen an option you did not want to choose?

Jim We have been down this road before and for all intents and purposes your theory is the same as not having a will of our own.

Your idea of "weighing options" is simply for show and the "options" aren't really options at all.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Hilston
Why didn't God expose Hitler to typhoid or come up with a way to stop him?

Why didn't God let the landing gear snap off of one of those planes before takeoff?

Why didn't God give those cretins a flat tire 5 miles before they even saw Byrd?

Why didn't God make sure something happened to that Ryder van? Flat tire? Traffic jam?

According to the Open View, God sat idly by and did nothing, even though He could see it all happening before His very eyes. As the Master Chess Player, certainly He could see it coming, yet He did nothing.
God isn't the magic babysitter in the sky.

God created a reality and a universe for us that allows us to succeed and fail. It allows us to either follow His will or reject His will. When we follow His will we are rewarded and He guides our steps. When we reject His will we are not guided and and He dopes not direct our steps.

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. 7 Do not be wise in your own eyes; Fear the LORD and depart from evil.

With this design we are free to love God with our will which is a true love which is the ultimate purpose of creation in the first place.

Joshua 24:15 “And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”

[beanieboy]

If someone says that "God gave me cancer to give me strength", you can take that a lot of ways.

God created Satan. He didn't have to. If he was all knowing, he wouldn't have done it, and everything would be perfect all the time.

Technically, God gives someone cancer simply because everything exists because of God. And when bad things happen, you can witness the love of God.

But I don't think he infects you to show what a good God he is when you are healed.

It's more complicated than that.

For example, when are you moved the most in a friendship, when they are sitting around with you watching TV, or when you really need someone to talk to, and they say they will meet you? It's usually when bad things happen that you truly demonstrate your love for one another. I think it is the same with God, because we are a reflection.

Whaddya think?

[Ya'nar#1]

Originally posted by Knight

P.S. Please note that this thread is in the "Exclusively Christian Theology" forum so if you are coming in here to mock God please think otherwise.

I would rather discuss this concept from a Christian or biblical stance.

Thanks in advance for your consideration.


Knight, you are absolutely right!

It IS very disconcerting when people blame God for the evil that is in the world through sin. I have heard people say God is responsible for all kinds of things, from evil, to just plain physical or emotional "pain" as a result of the outworkings of sin in our bodies and minds.

But whatever goes wrong in this world, IT IS NOT GOD'S FAULT!

It was our older brother and sister, Adam and Eve, that brought rebellion against God into this world, and that act began the development of sin. Sin's malignant effects have devastated this planet and all it's inhabitants--animals and plants included. We suffer because of sin. Yet God, in His benevolent mercy and justice, has helped us all along the way--or none of us would long survive. One of the beneficial effects of the flood was the shortening of man's life span, in order that we would not have to suffer this life for a thousand years. It is your righteous indignation, Knight, that objects so strongly to these wrong-headed people.

Sin brings pain and death. Not God.

Thanks Knight for this reminder!

:thumb:


May God Bless!

--Ya'nar :Princess:

[beanieboy]

Hm. Some of it we bring upon ourselves.

If you get lung cancer and smoke a lot, well, blaming God is silly.

But my Grandmother died of a cyst the size of a grapefruit on her ovary. She never smoked.

So, sometimes these things happen, and they work for God.

[smaller]

OK… I gotta vent.

I try to be calm and I try to be patient with those that credit bad things to God via Calvinistic theology. But there are some times I simply can’t be patient or cordial because this twisted sick, perverted theology is sometimes too much to handle.

Today I was listening to a Christian station on the radio. And there was a public service spot which featured a woman explaining a heart wrenching story. She explained that she was diagnosed with Leukemia on her child’s first birthday. She explained that she was treated with intense chemotherapy. She went on to say that she was comforted by God (which of course is fantastic). But then she said that God have given her the cancer so God would also give her the strength to get through it.

Of course Mr. Knight would prefer to think that God could not make a body that was NOT susceptible to cancer OR that cancer was created by MANKIND or that THE DEVIL has these special ANTI-creative powers, ALL OF WHICH exist OUTSIDE of the WILL OF GOD.

Mr. Knight would also overlook the FACT that HE HIMSELF will not escape this temporal life, but ridicules others in their attempts to RECONCILE these issues and BLAME IT ON THEIR SUPPOSED ignorace and rest upon his OWN strength and knowledge when facing this FACT OF SICKNESS and DEATH.

surprise surprise.....

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can you imagine that?

Yes, SURELY it is ALL THEIR FAULTS....he says in typical accuser fashion...

Can you imagine a women actual thinking that God had given her cancer???

That is just plain sick!

Yes ALL THESE THINGS just popped up in CREATION all on THEIR OWN without any CONSENT of God.

What ever happened to understanding that it was man’s sin (our rebellion) that brought sickness and death into the world? What ever happened to placing the responsibility for bad things with mankind? So now God is a disease dispenser?

Yes, sickness and death simply MATERIALIZED out of THIN AIR. ALL the responsibility for ANY bad thing is MAN'S PROBLEM and MAN must get themselves OUT OF IT.

What absurdity.

People are just plain stupid.

Of which because of the WAY YOU THINK you are BETTER....

lol

You need a FASTER CHARIOT my friend. Yours is more than ANTIquated. One made of LIGHT. Can you MAKE LIGHT??? Maybe lend a sympathetic EAR? Comfort someone in SUFFERINGs???

I doubt it. You will do just as you are COMPELLED to do.

Blame and ACCUSE.

smaller

[Knight]

Originally posted by beanieboy
God created Satan. He didn't have to. If he was all knowing, he wouldn't have done it, and everything would be perfect all the time.

Beanie you are aware that God did not create Satan as a evil creature right?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Ya'nar#1
Sin brings pain and death. Not God. Isn't that one of the major themes of the Bible?

P.S. Great post!

[smaller]

Beanieboy ET AL

Here is what Jesus said about SATAN:

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Mr. Knight thinks that because satan was PERFECT in all his ways that satan was PERFECT, but he overlooks that SATAN was a PERFECT DEVIL eh???

Satan was even closer to God then, but God finally got FED UP with the STINK and cast him down to EARTH....guess WHICH EARTH he landed IN???

smaller

[Knight]

Originally posted by smaller

Beanieboy ET AL

Here is what Jesus said about SATAN:

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Mr. Knight thinks that because satan was PERFECT in all his ways that satan was PERFECT, but he overlooks that SATAN was a PERFECT DEVIL eh???

Satan was even closer to God then, but God finally got FED UP with the STINK and cast him down to EARTH....guess WHICH EARTH he landed IN???

smaller Uh... so you don't think Satan fell?

Would you like me to prove you wrong?

[smaller]

It is only how YOU read it Knight. When you start from a suppositional position all that is reflected is YOUR OWN HEART...

get it?

You say to yourself SATAN WAS PERFECT except for the INIQUITY that was FOUND IN HIM which you conveniently OVERlook.

You think SATAN created HIMSELF??? and FELL completely of his OWN accord...

All I can say is HE MUST HAVE HAD A POOR MANUFACTURER

or

Your premise is FLAWED severely...(a much more likely case)

So when you say WATCH MY PROOF all I will see is YOUR REFLECTION of THE WORDs and I do not call REFLECTIONS as REAL "proof." They disappear by stirring the WATERs...

enjoy!

smaller

[Hilston]

Hi Knight,

Something's weird about the way you quoted me in your last post. Each of the paragraphs say "Knight writes" but then is followed by my words. Could you kindly edit your for post? I'd hate for lurkers to get confused.

Knight writes:God isn't the magic babysitter in the sky.If you could have stopped the tragedy of 9/11, would you? Would that make you a "babysitter"? If you could have stopped the Byrd murder, would you have? If you could have stopped Hitler and McVeigh, would you have? Is that being a babysitter?

God could have done any number of things, without overriding man's "free will," to stop these widescale atrocities. But He didn't. Why?

Knight wrote:Can you believe a person could think such wicked things about God???Again I say: Indeed.

Jim

[Rolf Ernst]

Response to Knight, post #38 and Clete, post #43

Knight, your use of Prov. 1:24, Jn. 5:40 and Acts 7:51 do not in anyway point out an error in Reformed theology. To the contrary, they are proofs of the Reformed view of man's total depravity.

All three of the texts you mention are rebukes of unbelievers. As a consequence of man's fall in Adam, all men are incapable, apart from God's effectual grace, of doing that which is proper in response to God's counsels, though they are very clear and plainly spoken.

Therefore we see many instances wherein men distain God's counsel, are unwilling to come to Christ; will NOT come to Christ, and are ALWAYS stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears.

God has a right to rebuke them for their impenitence. The fact that God had not to that point been pleased to regenerate them does not excuse them. The fact that they, in themselves, could not do what God counseled them to do does not in anyway relieve them of accountabilty to respond positively to God's directives.

Since men share a REAL guilt and legal accountability for EVERY inability which came upon them through their identification with Adam in his rebellion, we are--all of us-- therefore accountable to God for EVERY lack of conformity to the will of God.

Since we are legally accountable for every lack of conformity, it is God's rightful place as governor over His creation to press His just laws upon man's conscience and rebuke failures to conform.

Until He is pleased to regenerate rebels, they can do nothing BUT
rebel against His counsel, but their violation of His expressed will does not in anyway mean that they are successfully frustrating God's secret counsel concerning them. If He has not been pleased to regenerate them, they are in the circumstance of being left in their sin--with a positive inclination to rebellion and worthy of rebuke.

Clete, the same truth applies to your post #43.

[Greywolf]

Lamentations 3:38

Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Hilston

Hi Knight,

Something's weird about the way you quoted me in your last post. Each of the paragraphs say "Knight writes" but then is followed by my words. Could you kindly edit your for post? I'd hate for lurkers to get confused.Fixed it!

That happens because when you quote me you first state... "Knight writes" and then when I quote you in return it includes the phrase "Knight Writes" but not my actual quote because my actual quote was in the quote code. Kinda strange. I will be more careful next time.

If you could have stopped the tragedy of 9/11, would you? Would that make you a "babysitter"?I am not God. I do not have authority or power over the wills of men.

God COULD have created a reality where it was impossible for anyone to do anything bad. But to do so would have required God removing our freedom and God didn't want to imprison His creation. God deemed that freedom was a necessary risk to allow us the REAL choice to choose Him or reject Him.

God could have done any number of things, without overriding man's "free will," What could have God done to prevent these things without altering mans freewill?

[Rolf Ernst]

Greywolf--your post #87: God performs His will by the power of His word, so it is out of His mouth that good and evil proceed. Your post is therefore a good and valid response to Knight's position in starting this thread. Bravo!

[smaller]

God COULD have created a reality where it was impossible for anyone to do anything bad. But to do so would have required God removing our freedom

So INSTEAD God BINDS all people to DISOBEDIENCE, then plants them in WEAKNESS, HUMILITY, CORRUPTION, DECAY, and eventually DEATH, and gives them all a FREEWILL that is ONLY CAPABLE OF PRODUCING SIN????

Then Knight comes along and calls this FREEDOM???

and God didn't want to imprison His creation.

What a joker you are...really. Your supposed "freewill" cannot see past the end of it's own NOSE...>

God deemed that freedom was a necessary risk to allow us the REAL choice to choose Him or reject Him.

This is only what BLINDED BOUND AND GAGED FREEDOM thinks it sees. Said "freedom" is obviously incapable of SEEING REALITY...

smaller

[Knight]

Originally posted by smaller
What a joker you are...really. :wave2:

[Hilston]

Knight writes: I am not God. I do not have authority or power over the wills of men.That's not required to stop a terrorist. If you could have stopped them, wouldn't you have done it? Use your imagination. Let's say you overheard them talking at Taco Bell and you called the authorities. Let's say one of them defected at the last minute and he told you about it. Would you have done everything you could to stop them?

Knight writes: What could have God done to prevent these things without altering mans freewill?He could have withdrawn His hand from holding the atoms in the landing gear together on one of the planes and stopped the flight from ever leaving the ground. He could have withdrawn His hand from holding the brain cells together in the hijackers cranium and caused the plane to crash into the ocean, killing only a fraction of the number of people who died on 9/11. He could have brought a microburst along at the right moment and caused the plane to plunge into the bay, saving thousands of lives. None of these override anyone's freewill.

Again, God could have done any number of things to stop these things from happening. Why didn't He?

And again, I quote Knight: Can you believe a person could think such wicked things about God???Indeed.

Have you ever chosen an option you did not want to choose?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Hilston

That's not required to stop a terrorist.In the context of our discussion it is.

You continue... If you could have stopped them, wouldn't you have done it? Use your imagination. Let's say you overheard them talking at Taco Bell and you called the authorities. Let's say one of them defected at the last minute and he told you about it. Would you have done everything you could to stop them?Answer = Yes.

You continue...He could have withdrawn His hand from holding the atoms in the landing gear together on one of the planes and stopped the flight from ever leaving the ground. He could have withdrawn His hand from holding the brain cells together in the hijackers cranium and caused the plane to crash into the ocean, killing only a fraction of the number of people who died on 9/11. He could have brought a microburst along at the right moment and caused the plane to plunge into the bay, saving thousands of lives. None of these override anyone's freewill.Yea... I suppose that is true. He could have done something supernatural to stop these evil actions. But that has not been God's MO. God has occasionally intervened to thwart evil but only in certain circumstances.

Again, God could have done any number of things to stop these things from happening. Why didn't He?As I have stated before... God isn't our cosmic babysitter. God allows us to freely follow His will or reject His will.

He wants us to choose Him without making the choice for us (coerced).

This decision of Gods has the consequence that men may choose evil.

You continue....Have you ever chosen an option you did not want to choose? As I have answered you dozens of times on this question OF COURSE! Of course I have chose an option I didn't want to choose. Who hasn't?

I am not going down this road again with you Jim, your MATRIX logic is frankly too weird for me to waste my time on again. I will however be glad to continue the other part of the discussion.

[Hilston]

Jim asked: Would you have done everything you could to stop them?

Knight replies: Answer = Yes.Knight, what would you think of someone who had a chance to do something very simple to thwart the attacks, and knowing fully was about to transpire, nonetheless did not do what he could to stop it?

Jim wrote: He could have brought a microburst along at the right moment and caused the plane to plunge into the bay, saving thousands of lives. None of these override anyone's freewill.

Knight writes:Yea... I suppose that is true. He could have done something supernatural to stop these evil actions.This is different. This is not intervention. God holds everything together; every atom in the universe is supernaturally sustained by His omnipresent power. I'm merely suggesting that He relax His grip on the atomic structure of some part of the plane. Surely God could do this without a full-blown supernatural intervention. It would just be a very natural increase of entropy in one small part of the universe. E.g. the landing gear could simply fracture, set off a sensor in the cockpit, and bam -- no flight. One less missile to hit the WTC and hundreds of lives are saved.

Knight writes:But that has not been God's MO. God has occasionally intervened to thwart evil but only in certain circumstances.If God truly wants everyone to have ample opportunity to get saved, why would He sit by and watch thousands of people die, many of whom were probably unsaved, and would have had a chance to believe in Christ?

Jim wrote: Again, God could have done any number of things to stop these things from happening. Why didn't He?

Knight writes:As I have stated before... God isn't our cosmic babysitter. God allows us to freely follow His will or reject His will.OK, He's not a babysitter. You're not answering the question. I'm not suggesting that God should act like a babysitter. How about just being aware of what's going on and caring enough for those human beings to stop a terrible tragedy, just as you yourself would have done if you had a chance. God had a chance and myriad simple options at His disposal by which to thwart the attacks. Why didn't He do it? You would have. Are you nicer than God?

Knight writes:This decision of Gods has the consequence that men may choose evil.Is He helpless to mitigate it? Or is He just unwilling?

Jim asked: Have you ever chosen an option you did not want to choose?

Knight writes:As I have answered you dozens of times on this question OF COURSE! Of course I have chose an option I didn't want to choose. Who hasn't?I haven't. I've never chosen an option I did not want to choose. I can't think of a single one. Do you have an example of one? Anyone? It doesn't have to be Knight. Anyone can answer.

What "Matrix" logic are you referring to?

Jim

[Rolf Ernst]

Knight--In post #93 you say that God has "occassionally intervened to stop evil but only in some circumstances"

Why not define those circumstances, Knight? If you really believe the whole Bible, then act on that belief. Stand upon what it says; because the Bible DOES define the circumstances in which He intervenes--"Even the wrath of man shall praise you, and the remainder of wrath you will restrain."

That is, He restrains the evil which men would of themselves do WHEN He has not purposed good from it it in accord with His holy and just ways.

For some reason, OVers and Arminians just cannot grasp the fact that in that which men do with evil intent, God's motivation in the same event can be for good.

Motivation is the key word--motivation, and final outcome of an action.
Many times, when men intend nothing but evil, the final outcome of their action is altogether different from what they intended.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Hilston

I haven't. I've never chosen an option I did not want to choose. I can't think of a single one. Do you have an example of one? Anyone? It doesn't have to be Knight. Anyone can answer. I strongly suspect that your assertion that one cannot choose an option that one does not want to choose is unfalsifiable, because you would define "what one truly wants to choose" as "what one ultimately chooses."

For instance:

He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will." Matthew 26:39

And He was withdrawn from them about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and prayed, saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup away from Me; nevertheless not My will, but Yours, be done." Luke 22:41-42

I could take Jesus at his word and recognize that Jesus wanted to not have to suffer and be killed, but nevertheless submitted to the Father's will, putting aside his own will ("not my will").

But then I would bet that you would say that Jesus wanted to submit to the Father more than he wanted to avoid his torturous execution. How do you know? The very fact that Jesus chose to submit to the Father is the proof. Right?

[Hilston]

Hi Turbo

Knight writes: ...No, actually, Jim wrote ...

I haven't. I've never chosen an option I did not want to choose. I can't think of a single one. Do you have an example of one? Anyone? It doesn't have to be Knight. Anyone can answer.

I strongly suspect that your assertion that one cannot choose an option that one does not want to choose is unfalsifiable, because you would define "what one truly wants to choose" as "what one ultimately chooses."It's falsifiable if you can show me an occasion where you chose an option that you did not want to choose.

<Snip quotes Mt 26:39 Lu 22:41-42>

But then I would bet that you would say that Jesus wanted to submit to the Father more than he wanted to avoid his torturous execution. How do you know? The very fact that Jesus chose to submit to the Father is the proof. Right?No, I know because the Bible says so:

John 12:27 "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, 'Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour."

Don't be deceived by traditional theology or the English translations. The Greek is emphatic. Jesus rhetorically asks if He should ask the Father to save him out of this hour. The answer is no. So that is not what Jesus is asking the Father in the Garden. He was asking the Father to save Him from permanent death -- i.e. the dregs of the cup, not the cup itself. Jesus prayed that the cup be removed, and His prayer was heard (Heb 5:7). In Matthew 26:42, the Greek says "Since this cup may not pass from me unless I drink it, thy will be done." That is, the cup passes after He drinks it. It is a prayer to be saved from the grave, that His body would not be left to decay in the tomb, and the Father answered: Yes.

What a glorious truth!

Jim

[Knight]

Originally posted by Hilston
Knight, what would you think of someone who had a chance to do something very simple to thwart the attacks, and knowing fully was about to transpire, nonetheless did not do what he could to stop it?Again comparing man to God in this instance is not a fair analogy.

If God were to stop every bad or evil action it would defeat God's own desires for us.... for two (at least two) reasons.

1. God would have to intervene in our lives on almost a constant basis. From stopping murderers to stopping adulterers to stopping shoplifters and neighborhood bullies. Our lives would be radically different and we would have little respect for the big bully in the sky who was constantly grabbing us before we fell off our bike.

2. God realizes that His miraculous intervention more often than not turns men away from Him which thwarts His will that we choose Him. I am sure you are very aware that while some chose God after His miraculous interventions and miracles many more rejected Him for these miracles. It seems the more God showed His hand the more men turned away.

Matthew 12:39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of the prophet Jonah.

Therefore God wanting men to choose Him walks a thin line of giving man enough evidence to choose Him yet not being so overbearing that men rebel against Him.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Turbo

I strongly suspect that your assertion that one cannot choose an option that one does not want to choose is unfalsifiable, because you would define "what one truly wants to choose" as "what one ultimately chooses." Bee... eye... en... gee... oh.

[Hilston]

Again comparing man to God in this instance is not a fair analogy.I totally concede that point. I just want to know what you would think of a person who could have stopped the tragedy but didn't.

1. God would have to intervene in our lives on almost a constant basis. From stopping murderers to stopping adulterers to stopping shoplifters and neighborhood bullies. Our lives would be radically different and we would have little respect for the big bully in the sky who was constantly grabbing us before we fell off our bike.Of course. I'm not talking about every mundane instance, just the heinous ones where evil men take the lives of innocent others. Why doesn't God just stop those? He could do it, right? Why doesn't He, especially the murders of unsaved people who will now have no chance at salvation?

2. God realizes that His miraculous intervention more often than not turns men away from Him which thwarts His will that we choose Him.I'm not asking for miraculous (see below), so this point is moot.

Therefore God wanting men to choose Him walks a thin line of giving man enough evidence to choose Him yet not being so overbearing that men rebel against Him.That's why I suggested surreptitious action. Something undetectable by humans. Surely God is creative enough to come up with ways to save children from being brutally raped, tortured and murdered without making it an obvious miraculous intervention. Like this: Say the homicidal pedophile has done this before, and now God has learned what this guy is capable of. So let's say a mother has prayed that God would protect her child (so we have the prayer request made). Now the the man sets his sights to abduct that woman's child. In answer to prayer, God relaxes His hold on the atomic structure of gastrointenstinal organs of the pedophile, causing severe abdominal pain, requiring him to find a restroom. The child is safe, the pedophile is sufficiently distracted. That just one quick example. This would be so easy for God to do, and no one would be the wiser.

On the Open View, wouldn't you expect God to be a healthy and compassionate God and do whatever He could to (secretly) stop this, and not a sick voyeuristic God who would idly stand by while such an evil act occurred?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Hilston
Of course. I'm not talking about every mundane instance, just the heinous ones where evil men take the lives of innocent others. Why doesn't God just stop those? He could do it, right? Why doesn't He, especially the murders of unsaved people who will now have no chance at salvation?Why stop at only the heinous events? If your argument holds God should be protecting us from hurting each other all the time!

You continue....That's why I suggested surreptitious action. Something undetectable by humans. Surely God is creative enough to come up with ways to save children from being brutally raped, tortured and murdered without making it an obvious miraculous intervention. Like this: Say the homicidal pedophile has done this before, and now God has learned what this guy is capable of. So let's say a mother has prayed that God would protect her child (so we have the prayer request made). Now the the man sets his sights to abduct that woman's child. In answer to prayer, God relaxes His hold on the atomic structure of gastrointenstinal organs of the pedophile, causing severe abdominal pain, requiring him to find a restroom. The child is safe, the pedophile is sufficiently distracted. That just one quick example. This would be so easy for God to do, and no one would be the wiser. Uhm.... Jim.... your story begs the question.... why didn't God prevent the first homicidal rape? Why only stop the second one? :confused:

On the Open View, wouldn't you expect God to be a healthy and compassionate God and do whatever He could to (secretly) stop this, and not a sick voyeuristic God who would idly stand by while such an evil act occurred? LOL.... ah you mean you would rather have the God that is BEHIND all of the evil in the world right??? :chuckle:

You complain about voyeurism but preach evil mastermind!

Not that is rich indeed.

[Hilston]

Knight,

You write: Why stop at only the heinous events? If your argument holds God should be protecting us from hurting each other all the time!Just those events that would most benefit God's desire to save as many people as possible. A heinous evil murder of an innocent person prevents the salvation of that person forever. The stubbing of a toe does not.

Uhm.... Jim.... your story begs the question.... why didn't God prevent the first homicidal rape? Why only stop the second one?I'm starting from the Open View. On the Open View, God might not have seen it coming. I'm cutting God some slack, Knight. That's not "question-begging." Do you agree that it would be an easy thing for God to do, and that He could do it without anyone knowing that He was behind it?

Jim wrote: On the Open View, wouldn't you expect God to be a healthy and compassionate God and do whatever He could to (secretly) stop this, and not a sick voyeuristic God who would idly stand by while such an evil act occurred?

LOL.... ah you mean you would rather have the God that is BEHIND all of the evil in the world right???No, I'm talking about the Open View, Knight. Wouldn't you, as an Open Theist, expect God to be a healthy and compassionate God and do whatever He could to (secretly) stop this?

[Yorzhik]

Hilston writes:No, I'm talking about the Open View, Knight. Wouldn't you, as an Open Theist, expect God to be a healthy and compassionate God and do whatever He could to (secretly) stop this?
No. I would expect God to be consistant with His character and leave the atoms the way He said He would, and let people have free will in the way He said He would.

[Hilston]

Yorzhik,

Didn't I already concede that God would leave free will alone? Let's further assume He doesn't alter the atoms (He can't "leave them alone" -- He holds them together!). Couldn't God come up with myriad creative ways to prevent evil people from murdering innocent people who might someday get saved?

Wouldn't a healthy God do something to stop the premature deaths of people who might otherwise have become believers?

Jim

[Lighthouse]

Clete-
Hell is not reserved for those who reject Christ. Hell was made for Satan, and all the angels that followed him, in their rejection of God. Yes, people go there too, but it was not made for them. It is not reserved for them, but they go ther if they reject Christ's death [and therefore accept their own].

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

I really cannot understand how you and other Calvinist are totally unable to see the totally inconsistent nature of your own belief system. It's truly as if there is something blinding you guys. Calvinism is so hopelessly self contradictory that it should be the easiest thing in the world to debunk and it is, but it as if there is this wall, or some sort of barrier that prevents many from seeing it. I really don't get it! It's not as if you guys are stupid, you're obviously not!
To me, the Calvinistic view of God is of one who is more glorified than in your view. I've experienced both sides of the fence; the grass is much greener over here...
So why is it that you can see that 2+2=7 is not correct but you can't understand that if Knight was hypocritical because there was no other option other than to be hypocritical then to say that he had a choice in the matter is self contradictory! Even if you say he wanted to be hypocritical then that is meaningless because the very fact that he wanted to is itself a predestined unalterable fact, right? It's not as if you guys can say that Knight's personal history has led him down a path that resulted in the evil desire within him that caused him to consciously decide to be hypocritical because you only compound your own logical problem. Everything that Knight has ever thought, or done, or said, or felt, or experienced in any way was not due to his own action but due to God's predestined will being performed. In a Calvinist worldview Knight is a puppet on strings as are we all and to insist that one repent in order to be within God's will is self contradictory and in fact could only be done if God Himself pulled the repent string in His cosmic puppet show. Knight would have no more culpability for his actions than Pinocchio would.
So what if God predestines? Why is that such a "stumbling block" to you? Why can't you just understand the simple fact that man has reponsibility and God is absolutely sovereign? The Bible teaches both, yet you find that hard to believe. To you, it's gotta be one or the other.

[Z Man]

Knight,
Originally posted by Z Man

Did God give Job his afflictions? Did God give Egypt thier plagues? Did God afflict the Israelites with much turmoil in the desert after fleeing from Egypt? Did God blind Zach, the father of John? Did God blind Paul? Did God cripple all those people that Jesus had to heal? Does God not do these things to be glorified?

Also, your horrible Bible interpreting skills were caught red-handed by boogerhead in posts #52 and #58. I find it amusing how you run away from your 'problems'...

[Hilston]

Z Man, I'm still waiting to see if Clete is going to answer my questions. If you see him, please give him a nudge.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Hilston

Z Man, I'm still waiting to see if Clete is going to answer my questions. If you see him, please give him a nudge.
Roger doger. :thumb:

Hey, did you add me to your yahoo instant messenger?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

To me, the Calvinistic view of God is of one who is more glorified than in your view. I've experienced both sides of the fence; the grass is much greener over here...

So what if God predestines? Why is that such a "stumbling block" to you? Why can't you just understand the simple fact that man has reponsibility and God is absolutely sovereign? The Bible teaches both, yet you find that hard to believe. To you, it's gotta be one or the other.

let's suppose i have a friend named bob. bob has a son named joe. now one day, bob sees something he wants in a store but can't afford. so he takes joe to the store, grabs both his hands and forces him (joe) to grab the item he (bob) wants and put it in his (joe's) pocket. now please tell me, who is responsible for the theft? joe, or bob?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

let's suppose i have a friend named bob. bob has a son named joe. now one day, bob sees something he wants in a store but can't afford. so he takes joe to the store, grabs both his hands and forces him (joe) to grab the item he (bob) wants and put it in his (joe's) pocket. now please tell me, who is responsible for the theft? joe, or bob?
Ummmm......both?

How's that story have anything to do with this discussion? Do you believe God is sovereign, or that man is sovereign? Can you understand that the Bible tells us that there is a mystery concerning man's responsibility, yet God is absolutely sovereign at the same time?

[Hilston]

God_is_truth writes:let's suppose i have a friend named bob. bob has a son named joe. now one day, bob sees something he wants in a store but can't afford. so he takes joe to the store, grabs both his hands and forces him (joe) to grab the item he (bob) wants and put it in his (joe's) pocket. now please tell me, who is responsible for the theft? joe, or bob?If Bob is God and Joe is His Son, then neither are responsible, because, as God, He answers to no one.

God_is_Truth, have you ever chosen something you did not want to choose?

Jim

[Big Finn]

Do you believe God is sovereign, or that man is sovereign?

Do you Calvinists believe that the earth is the entirety, or vast majority, of God's creation? Do you believe it is the center of God's creation? That mankind is God's only sentient creation?

[Turbo]

For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. Romans 7:14-16

[Clete]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Clete-
Hell is not reserved for those who reject Christ. Hell was made for Satan, and all the angels that followed him, in their rejection of God. Yes, people go there too, but it was not made for them. It is not reserved for them, but they go ther if they reject Christ's death [and therefore accept their own].
Don't be stupid.
I was not writing a precise theological tretise when I wrote that post. My meaning was clear. Such nit-picking is a waste of everyones time.
The fact is that people who refuse to glorify God will go to Hell.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Hilston

Z Man, I'm still waiting to see if Clete is going to answer my questions. If you see him, please give him a nudge.

See post 56

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

Ummmm......both?

How's that story have anything to do with this discussion? Do you believe God is sovereign, or that man is sovereign? Can you understand that the Bible tells us that there is a mystery concerning man's responsibility, yet God is absolutely sovereign at the same time?

you would honestly hold joe responsible for something he was forced to do? something he had absolutely no say in whatsoever?

i'll tie in the relevence shortly.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Hilston

God_is_truth writes:If Bob is God and Joe is His Son, then neither are responsible, because, as God, He answers to no one.

God_is_Truth, have you ever chosen something you did not want to choose?

Jim

you are partly right in your answer. but ignoring what they may stand for, just in this example, who would you hold responsible for the crime? bob or joe?

have i ever chosen something i didn't want to? good grief yes! i may have wanted to wear my blue shirt with a hole in it to chruch when i was a kid but my parents would have made my choose another one. so, i would have had to choose to wear a shirt i didn't want to wear. i chose something i didn't want to choose. i had to choose it.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Z Man

Ummmm......both?

How's that story have anything to do with this discussion? Do you believe God is sovereign, or that man is sovereign? Can you understand that the Bible tells us that there is a mystery concerning man's responsibility, yet God is absolutely sovereign at the same time?

How does the freedom to choose equate to being soveriegn?

Are you saying that God does not have the ability to soveriegnly delegate to us the authority to choose on our own the way we live our lives? If the authority to live our lives is granted to us by God wouldn't that mean our ability to freely choose is based upon God's soveriegnty?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Knight]

Originally posted by Hilston

Just those events that would most benefit God's desire to save as many people as possible. A heinous evil murder of an innocent person prevents the salvation of that person forever. The stubbing of a toe does not.It's strange you keep saying this.

Why doesn't a 26 year old person have a chance to become saved?

How on earth do you define "chance"?

When people are murdered or killed in a car crash or die quickly or a heart attack or brain aneurism do you view them as not having a chance for salvation? I sure don't!

Every person with a reasonable mental capacity has a chance and or responsibility to choose life. There is no guarantee that any of us will live to any specific age. It is all of our own responsibilities to make wise choices.... any day could be our last day.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

Knight,


Also, your horrible Bible interpreting skills were caught red-handed by boogerhead in posts #52 and #58. I find it amusing how you run away from your 'problems'... Z Man you can think whatever you like.

But as far as I can tell boogerheads post(s) only further proved my point that we have the ability to reject God's will.

I wasn't going to argue against a post that agree's with my own point.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Big Finn

Do you Calvinists believe that the earth is the entirety, or vast majority, of God's creation? Do you believe it is the center of God's creation? That mankind is God's only sentient creation?
That's the exact opposite of what we believe. Personally, I believe that God Himself is the center of His "universe"; we are just the mere 'public display' of His own infatuation with Himself. In other words, God 'went public' with His own glory when He created everything.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

you would honestly hold joe responsible for something he was forced to do? something he had absolutely no say in whatsoever?
Look, bottom line, God predestines and is absolutely sovereign, yet He still holds us accountable. You seem to have a big problem with this, but don't take it out on me or my 'doctrine'; it's totally biblical that God predestines and is absolutely sovereign, yet He still holds us accountable for our actions.

Romans 9:18-20 (NLT)
So you see, God shows mercy to some just because he wants to, and he chooses to make some people refuse to listen. Well then, you might say, "Why does God blame people for not listening? Haven't they simply done what he made them do?" No, don't say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to criticize God?

Romans 9:18-20 (The Message)
All we're saying is that God has the first word, initiating the action in which we play our part for good or ill. Are you going to object, "So how can God blame us for anything since he's in charge of everything? If the big decisions are already made, what say do we have in it?" Who in the world do you think you are to second-guess God? Do you for one moment suppose any of us knows enough to call God into question?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

How does the freedom to choose equate to being soveriegn?

Are you saying that God does not have the ability to soveriegnly delegate to us the authority to choose on our own the way we live our lives? If the authority to live our lives is granted to us by God wouldn't that mean our ability to freely choose is based upon God's soveriegnty?

Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete,

God did that in Genesis, remember? And look what happened...

The fact is, if God just threw us the "keys" to do whatever we wish and to choose to do whatever we please, we'd take them and run with them. Like the parable of the prodigal son, we'd use that freedom to please ourself, not to glorify God. We are slaves to sin. We are not free and do not have free wills. Our will is to do what we can for ourself, not to do anything for God.

That's why He needs to save, or free us from our bondage in sin. He chooses whom He wills to do this too. It's called election. He chooses based upon His good will and pleasure, not on anything we have done.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Z Man you can think whatever you like.

But as far as I can tell boogerheads post(s) only further proved my point that we have the ability to reject God's will.

I wasn't going to argue against a post that agree's with my own point.
Ummmm.... on the contrary, if you actually read those posts, you would of noticed that she unveiled the true context of Proverbs 1:24 that you used to support your fanatical view that men can thwart God's will. Those verses were not in reference to God's will, but rather, in rejecting "wisdom". Surely, you know the difference, no?

BTW, you have yet to reply to this:
Originally posted by Z Man

Did God give Job his afflictions? Did God give Egypt thier plagues? Did God afflict the Israelites with much turmoil in the desert after fleeing from Egypt? Did God blind Zach, the father of John? Did God blind Paul? Did God cripple all those people that Jesus had to heal? Does God not do these things to be glorified?
If God inclined these afflictions upon all of these people (and trust me, there are several, numerous more examples), then what makes you think that a woman declaring that God gave her cancer is a bad thing? If God willed the suffering and death of His own Son, why is it wrong for Him to do it to a simple, sinful human being? Are we not His creation? Can He not do to us as He pleases? Who are you to tell Him He's wrong?

[Big Finn]

That's the exact opposite of what we believe. Personally, I believe that God Himself is the center of His "universe"; we are just the mere 'public display' of His own infatuation with Himself. In other words, God 'went public' with His own glory when He created everything.

Huh? What does your answer have to do with what I asked?

Amazing that you actually believe that God is infatuated with Himself. I find this to be incredible. The picture you have of God is one that portrays Him about as negatively as is humanly possible.

Infatuate from Merriam Webster's Online Dictionary:
Main Entry: 2in·fat·u·ate
Pronunciation: -"wAt
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): -at·ed; -at·ing
Etymology: Latin infatuatus, past participle of infatuare, from in- + fatuus fatuous
1 : to cause to be foolish : deprive of sound judgment
2 : to inspire with a foolish or extravagant love or admiration

In your eyes God is inspired with a foolish and extravagant love and admiration for Himself. In other words He is a spoiled brat with omnipotent power. That is nothing more than blasphemy as far as I'm concerned. I don't know how many other people will see it that way, but I certainly do. That you would worship someone that you see as being that way being speaks volumes about you.

It does, however, explain your insistence upon Calvinistic theology. I don't know if you had this idea of God before you heard of Calvinism and that's why you became a Calvinist, or if you developed this picture of God from Calvinism itself, but from what I can see of Calvinism it is either one or the other.

I didn't think I'd ever see a Calvinist actually admit to worshipping this kind of God, but I now have. Thank you Zman. You have proven everything I have ever suspected about Calvinism to be true.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Big Finn

Huh? What does your answer have to do with what I asked?
I assumed your question to be asking "is creation/mankind the center of God's universe", to which I replied, no.
Amazing that you actually believe that God is infatuated with Himself. I find this to be incredible. The picture you have of God is one that portrays Him about as negatively as is humanly possible.

In your eyes God is inspired with a foolish and extravagant love and admiration for Himself. In other words He is a spoiled brat with omnipotent power. That is nothing more than blasphemy as far as I'm concerned. I don't know how many other people will see it that way, but I certainly do. That you would worship someone that you see as being that way being speaks volumes about you.
If God loved anything more than Himself, why would we even bother worshipping Him?

[Big Finn]

If God loved anything more than Himself, why would we even bother worshipping Him?

I guess you find self-infatuation, which is nothing more than selfishness, worthy of emulation and to be the motivating factor in God. I am simply amazed and could hardly believe my eyes as I have read your last couple of posts.

Funny how the definition of sin, selfishness, is the root of your picture of God isn't it? Don't you find that to be disturbing in the least? You believe God is sinful. ***shakes head in amazement***

Paul said that there would come a time when people would not accept sound doctrine, and that men hold the knowledge of God in unrighteousness. Are his words ever true.

If God was truly a self-absorbed, self-infatutated being He wouldn't have sacrificed His Son to save a small portion of an ungrateful world. He would have just wiped out His mistake and started over. He would have cared less about the beings He had created. He wouldn't have lifted a finger to help them.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Big Finn

I guess you find self-infatuation, which is nothing more than selfishness, worthy of emulation and to be the motivating factor in God. I am simply amazed and could hardly believe my eyes as I have read your last couple of posts.

Funny how the definition of sin, selfishness, is the root of your picture of God isn't it? Don't you find that to be disturbing in the least? You believe God is sinful. ***shakes head in amazement***
God loving Himself is far from being selfish; in fact, it's the very thing we find our joy in - His glory.

Revelations 4:11
"You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created."
If God was truly a self-absorbed, self-infatutated being He wouldn't have sacrificed His Son to save a small portion of an ungrateful world.
Why do you think Christ came to die? For our glory? HAHA! Yeah right...

Isaiah 48:11
For My own sake, for My own sake, I will do it ... And I will not give My glory to another.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by Hilston
Knight, what would you think of someone who had a chance to do something very simple to thwart the attacks, and knowing fully was about to transpire, nonetheless did not do what he could to stop it?

Jim wrote: He could have brought a microburst along at the right moment and caused the plane to plunge into the bay, saving thousands of lives. None of these override anyone's freewill.



I think all this talk about God preventing what we view as terrible catastrophies seems to ignore that all things should have consequences.

Sin has consequences. And because the world is a VAST interwoven network of everybody's actions, the consequences are all interdependent.

If we interrupt that network at any point, we are being unfair to the consequences.

Basically, if we follow that way of thinking, then God should have let go of the atoms holding one of the tree trunks in Eden together so it would fall on Eve and kill her before she was able to eat the fruit.

But God doesn't do that sort of thing. God allows us to suffer the consequences of our disobedience. That seems to be the main lesson in life. For God to intervene in the manner Hilston suggests might not violate "free will." But it certainly violates what God seems to want for our lives: the learning experience of consequences. It would make no sense for Him to apply it to events like 9-11 if He wasn't going to apply it to Adam and Eve's disobedience.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man
Those verses were not in reference to God's will, but rather, in rejecting "wisdom". Surely, you know the difference, no?LOL... :chuckle: Z Man... IF God programs us in every way..... th