ARCHIVE: Danger, Public School Ahead (Written April 24, 1999)

[Prisca]

Article to Theologyonline.com following the Columbine Shooting.
Written and originally posted April 24, 1999
By Becky

Several years ago, when my oldest daughter was just learning how to ride a bike, a frightening and unusual accident was prevented by the quick action of her father. As she was struggling to peddle and steer the bike, a driverless car rolled slowly down the street directly toward her. Imagine her surprise when she glanced up to see this empty car, gaining speed as it came down the hill, headed straight for her. Fortunately, her father saw what was about to take place and rushed forward in time to push her to safety. Afterward, while our hearts were still pounding, the inevitable "what if" questions came to mind: "What if he hadn't been close enough to save her," "What if he hadn't been outside with her". But most of all, we were relieved that she was safe and had lived to ride again.

Tuesday afternoon, we had a similar experience. After returning from a weekend trip in the mountains, we were puzzled by phone messages from relatives who had called to see if we were okay. Then there was a message from my husband's lieutenant telling him to be prepared to assist in an emergency situation (he's a local deputy sheriff). We had no idea what was going on, so we turned on the news. Reports were coming in that an area high school was under attack. We listened in shock when we heard that it was Columbine High School. We live less than two miles away from that school.

A frightening realization set in. My daughter, who is now 16 and a junior, would have been in that school if it hadn't been for a decision we had made five years ago. When she was about to enter the seventh grade, we decided that public school was no longer a safe environment for her or her siblings. We pulled them all out of public school and began homeschooling them. We had many reasons for doing this, but school violence was one of the main reasons (we were not Christians at the time).

As the terrible details began to unfold, I went to my daughter and hugged her as though I would never let go. I felt as though she had barely escaped this tragedy. Why? Because so many times, when I first began homeschooling, I had thought maybe I was overreacting. So many times I had been ridiculed for my decision. So many times I had doubted my ability to teach her and had considered sending her back to school. Now, I can't help but to ask, "What if I had given in to my reservations?" "What if I had given in to social pressure?" "What if I had given in to self doubt?"

Over the years, it has become increasingly clear that we made the right decision. Now it is painfully clear. My entire community is filled with grief and despair over this tragedy. My heart goes out to all those parents who are on the other side of these "what if" questions. The public school system reminds me of that driverless car, hurtling out of control. For most parents, there is still time. It is not to late to push your kids out of its path before they, too, become its victims.

[Knight]

The idea of being "phyically pushed" to some, might not seem like a "loving action".

Great story, thanks!

And with a happy ending! (http://www.theologyonline.com/photopost/index.php?photo=53)

[Prisca]

Thanks Knight!

I’ll admit I was very emotional at the time that I wrote the article. It is hard to put into words how you feel when you discover that you have just escaped one of your worst nightmares.

The truth is, though, there have been so many positive outcomes from our original decision to homeschool that even I probably don’t realize what some of them are. Our children have been spared the exposure to drug abuse, under-age drinking, smoking, pregnancy, profanity, etc., etc.

I’m so proud of my kids, and so close to them. There was a time when I began to feel estranged from my oldest daughter. It seemed as though we clashed with one another nearly every day. Shortly after I began homeschooling her, I began to notice that things were changing. One day, while standing in line at Burger King, I noticed she was looking at me with a beautiful smile on her face. Suddenly she said to me, “Mom, you’re the greatest person I know.” I can’t begin to describe what that felt like!

It has not always been easy, it has not always been fun – but I wouldn’t have had it any other way. There is no way to measure the long-term advantages my children have gained by being at home with each other and with us.

In Christ,
Becky

[Knight]

Becky writes… Our children have been spared the exposure to drug abuse, under-age drinking, smoking, pregnancy, profanity, etc., etc.You mean you are going to let your children miss out on all those great social skills????

You continue… One day, while standing in line at Burger King, I noticed she was looking at me with a beautiful smile on her face. Suddenly she said to me, “Mom, you’re the greatest person I know.”
I thought you said your kids were smart? ;)

Just kidding!

Actually you are one of the greatest persons I know as well!

[Prisca]

You said, "You mean you are going to let your children miss out on all those great social skills???"
I can't tell you how many people have given us a hard time about the social issues. Usually they bring up Prom Night. I just have to laugh, because even though I did attend public school, I never went to Prom. Not once have ever I felt as though I “missed out on something”.
You said “I thought you said your kids were smart?”
http://www.gifs.net/animate/laff.gif
Very funny! When did I ever say they were smart?

[beanieboy]

With all due respect, do you no longer go to the post office, because of Post Office violence?

[Nineveh]

Thank you for opening this thread Becky :)

I have pondered home schooling for my future kid(s) ever since I was serving my 12 year sentance in pullik skool (and I never miss not going to prom either :) ). Unfortunatly I caved and send her to a Christian School. Where by the age of 7 she has learned about Mardi Gras, Candlemas, and Diwali.

To me, "socialization skills" were about the only arguement against homeschooling that held any merit to me. But, it is obvious to me, pullik skool is *not* the place, (and I am beginging to understand the same holds true for the private Christian school my daughter attends), to learn: respect, kindness, helpfulness, or develop a good attitude.

Since this is something you do successfully, could you please point me to some resources I might use to get me on the road to homeschooling our Blessing?

Good point beanie, I wonder how many of those postal workers who murder are pullik skool grads? You know, I would love to see some stats about the backgrounds of criminal's educational type. I certainly wouldn't take my daughter to get stamps at the post office if as many kids were losing their lives as at pullik skools.

[beanieboy]

ninevah - I think you missed my point because of your personal beef against public schools. My point was, if you want to insulate your child from everything, you might as well lock them up in a tower. I was exposed to drug abuse, alcoholism, teen pregnancy, etc., in public school, but I learned vicariously what not to do. I was exposed to things, and made decisions, seeing the results of those who chose to do them.

I went to a private school the first 2 years of college, and then to a state U my last years. The state U was much better in terms of education and atmosphere, and prepared me much better for adult life.

I think a lot of it is personal opinion, and your personal experience. I had a good public school education. Many of the teachers changed my life. We didn't wear school uniforms, and some people were popular because they wore expensive clothes. A lot like people wearing Armani suits now. There was a division between the classes, rich and poor, just as there is now. There was cruelty among popular and unpopular, the same as I see now. And as awful as that sounds, I learned how to deal with it, and it made my life better. And no one was ever shot.

[Nineveh]

I went to 2 pullik skools. One was a AirforceBrat/Farmer pullik skool (talk about colliding classes), and the other was a city pullik skool. Both stank. I learned the most important lesson in my life at pullik skool, that being: Peer Pressure only exists *inside* of that Godless institution. No one was ever shot in the skools I attended either, does that mean I should take that chance with my daughter? Becky could have, thank Jesus she didn't :)

So you understand that bullies are bullies no matter what. Why do you think it has gotten worse instead of better, even with all the millions of dollars and "be nice" programs dumped into it?

[beanieboy]

I saw the same thing in church.

In public school, i learned to take a concept, and then try to apply it in other ways.

In church, there were wealthy people who showed up in name brand clothes. They had that nose-in-the-air attitude, walking in, and i once overheard a woman talking smack about the family that sat near the back in their jeans. I think god cares more that you are there, and what's in your heart, that what's on your body. That family was much poorer than those they ridiculed.

I see it everywhere. As I said, I learned from it.
I'm sorry your experience was bad, ninevah, but I don't think that makes all public schools bad. My was challenging, and i learned a lot about myself and other people.

Violence happens everywhere. Should you allow your child to go to McDonalds? Do you remember the guy that opened fire there? Or allow your child to go on an airplane, for fear that it will be flown into a building? Or travel in a car, since 1000s of people die everyday in car accidents? Where is a truly "safe" place, except living in a yert?

[Projill]

I'm a pretty good example of a sentient thinking person who has graduated from public schooling. I might be dense, but I'm not dumb. :D

Becky, I can hear you on the fear. I have a lot of family in Colorado...they could have easily wound up at Columbine.

On a happier note, I have a very good friend now (who is currently obsessed with "Lord of the Rings") who went to Columbine and was there the day of the shootings. I'm happy that he wasn't hurt. He's a very very sweet guy.

[Prisca]

You said, “With all due respect, do you no longer go to the post office, because of Post Office violence?”

Well, I don’t work at one, that’s for sure. LOL.

The point is that we made and lived with a difficult decision that eventually spared our family immense tragedy. As I mentioned, school violence was only one of the reasons we took our kids out of school.

Even though I had fears concerning school violence, I realized that the chances of something actually happening were quite remote. But how thankful I now am that we held up against all the pressure we were under from well meaning friends and relatives.

[Prisca]

As far as the socialization skill are concerned, I must tell you that my two youngest children, the ones who spent the least time in public schools, are much more comfortable around other people than my two older children. They are far less shy than my older girls and they have lots of friends around the neighborhood. (Our house has become “the place to be” for many of the neighborhood children.) It could just be personality type - we may never know for sure.

When we first started homeschooling, we really didn’t know where to start. My husband knew someone from work whose wife was homeschooling their children, so we met with her. She lent us a pile of books and introduced us to a local homeschool newsletter called CHEC (Christian Home Educators of Colorado) http://www.chec.org/cgi-bin/chec.pl?/index.xml

From the newsletter, I learned of a certified teacher who did homeschool consultations. We met with her and she gave us lots of advice to get us started. Although we took a lot of her advice, we eventually developed our own style that fits well with our schedule.

We have settled into a comfortable routine using mostly A Beka books. We also use Saxon Math and some Modern Curriculum Press. If you want specifics, let me know.

One system we have also used is the Switched on School House computer program from Alpha Omega. When we first tried this, it was a brand new program and there were things that I didn’t like about it. I have since heard that the system has been greatly improved. One of my nephews and two of my nieces are currently using this system and they are all doing very well. It automatically plans all of the lessons for you and is self grading.

Well, that’s a beginning anyway. There is so much I could tell you, but just to get you started, you might want to check out this little quiz: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/6823/Test1234.htm

I took this quiz last fall after having already homeschooled for eight years and I found that the results matched quite well with our style of homeschooling. Perhaps it will give you some insight as to what would work best for you and your family. In the meantime, here are some links to helpful resources:

http://www.abeka.com/
http://www.home-schooling.com/flash.html
http://mcschool.com/
http://saxonmath.com/

[Prisca]

I, too, graduated from a public school as well as a public university. I know first hand what it is like to receive this kind of education. When I reflect on my own personal experience with the public school system, I am more thankful than ever that my children are no longer a part of it. ;)

[Nineveh]

Thank you Becky :)

[beanieboy]

What are the disadvantages of homeschool?

[Knight]

My wife and I homeschool 3 of our 5 children. We have a 3 year old who thinks she is in school as well! We also have a 2 month old who will someday attend school in our house.

Many of the people I discuss homeschooling with raise the “social skills issue” and I want to comment on that. More specifically… when you inform someone that you homeschool your children they often say… “what about their social skills”? What they are actually asking is, how are homeschool kids going to learn to interact with other children if they are not around other children all day long. I think that is a fair question, but I also feel that homeschooling offers a fantastic answer!

I feel that social skills are exactly that… SKILLS!

A skill is something you are taught. And if taught properly you become proficient at that skill.

Think of math skills.

Ask yourself… what is the best way for your children to attain a skill in math? Should you have a teacher teach your children math? Or should you let your children learn their math skills by hanging around other children and hoping that they “pick up” proper math skills?

Of course the answer is you should have a teacher teach your children math skills. Because simply hoping that your children will develop proper math skills by hanging around other children would likely end up in TOTAL failure.

Likewise, if you are counting on your children learning proper social skills by hanging around other children whom you know very little about will only result in your children learning their social skills from other children, that likely have no social skills or worse yet BAD social skills!

How are your children going to become proficient at social skills if they are being taught by other children?

We teach our children at home how to treat others, how to talk to others and how to respect others, and when they use these social skills they are more prepared to interact with others in a intelligent and respectful way.

Furthermore…
Our homeschooled children get plenty of interaction with other children through their sporting activities, other activities, and all of their neighborhood friends. This type of interaction is more limited and less likely results in our children learning bad social skills from their public school friends.

As a hockey coach I am around alot of kids, and I can tell you that most public school kids are indeed learning social skills at school… unfortunately they are learning BAD social skills!

[Knight]

Originally posted by beanieboy
What are the disadvantages of homeschool? Homeschooling is somewhat time consuming and you must be dedicated and patient.

There is no doubt that homeschooling has its trials and tribulations.

[Prisca]

You said, "A skill is something you are taught. And if taught properly you become proficient at that skill.

Very well said!

As I mentioned in my original article, while my oldest daughter was attending public school, I began to have daily confrontations with her. There was, and is, a lax attitude toward respect that runs rampant through public-school classrooms. However, the school atmosphere was not solely responsible for her attitude - I too, was to blame. I was a product of my own public-education. As a psych-minor, I took a very humanistic approach to childrearing. I was not very good at commanding respect or setting reasonable boundaries.

Once I began to homeschool, the authority structure changed. My daughter began to look to me for more structure. I learned that when I demanded respect, my daughter became more respectful. As I set safe boundaries, she began to feel more secure. We grew closer by the day. As with the Columbine shooting, am exceedingly thankful that my daughter was saved from the destructive social aspects of public schooling.

Recently, a cousin of mine began to voice familiar concerns about her daughter. She complained that her daughter was becoming disrespectful and that the two of them were fighting constantly. My cousin, who has a MA in psychology from the same university I graduated from, will sadly be faced with a different outcome. She pushed my advice aside, insisting she could never homeschool her own children. It makes me sad to think that she may never have the close bond with her girls (she has two) that I now have with my four kids. Parents have been led to think that they are not competent enough to educate their own children – even as they watch them fall apart before their very own eyes.:cry:

In Christ,
Becky

[Prisca]

You said, “What are the disadvantages of homeschool?”

Well, all of what Knight said was true. But also; sometimes you worry that you are not doing a good enough job, sometimes you worry that you are getting a little behind, sometimes you worry that you could be using a better curriculum.

Fortunately, we test our kids every odd year with tests like the ITBS (Iowa Test of Basic Skills). I also test them every six months using a computer assessment test. From these tests, we can see where our kids rank compared with other kids. The results of these test usually put our minds at ease. (Keep in mind, I did say usually.) But here’s the difference, if our child is having trouble, say in math, we are in control.

Two years ago, my youngest daughter tested poorly in math. She had been using the Modern Curriculum Press math program at that time. I got some good advice and immediately switched to Saxon Math. Now, math is one of her strongest subjects. Had she been in public school, I would not have had that option.

PS. We still use Modern Curriculum Press for spelling. The math program just wasn’t right for us.:down:

[beanieboy]

While I understand what people are saying about the "social skills" thing, most people that I have talked to set up social interaction with other homeschoolers (after first frisking them for guns ;) ). But I've always thought, sure, the kids are homeschooled, but it's not like they aren't going to interact with other kids in church, or in their neighborhood, or little league team. There are a lot of opportunities. It's not like homeschoolers are separatists or anything.

[Prisca]

You’re right; the idea is not to totally separate our kids from other kids. We simply want the ratio of their interactions to shift from being mostly peer oriented to being more family oriented.

In the past we have been involved with some very large homeschool groups. We would meet every couple of weeks for games, field day, parties, field trips, and special presentations. We have now formed our own group of about 10 to 12 children of varying ages. Our children participate in team sports, performing arts groups, and other social activities.

The goal is to give them a healthy balance of both family and peer group activities.

http://www.gifs.net/animate/ani-sled.gif

[beanieboy]

Can homeschool kids get college scholarships for sports? And if so, how do you have to demonstrate that?

[Atheist_Divine]

I find the idea of homeschooling intriguing - I don't think we are legally allowed - or at least encouraged - to do that over here in the UK. Perhaps it might have been better for me if we could, as I went to the most apalling primary school I've ever had the misfortune to hear about!

[Projill]

It's always entertaining to me that with as heated as TOL can get at times, at least we have threads like this that are more about sharing information and don't degrade into "my god can beat up your god" or "my the lord smite you". :)

[Prisca]

You asked, “Can homeschool kids get college scholarships for sports? And if so, how do you have to demonstrate that?”

Apparently, by law, the public schools (at least in Colorado) must allow homeschool students to participate in their sports programs. After all, we are still paying our taxes like everyone else. I imagine that these students have as good a shot at sports scholarships as any other public school student.

[Prisca]

You said, “I find the idea of homeschooling intriguing - I don't think we are legally allowed - or at least encouraged - to do that over here in the UK. Perhaps it might have been better for me if we could, as I went to the most apalling primary school I've ever had the misfortune to hear about!”
What are your main complaints against the school you attended?

I don’t know if you have any children yet, but here are some helpful resources:

http://www.heas.org.uk/
http://www.education-otherwise.org/legal/summ_law.htm
http://www.education-otherwise.org/legal/deregistration.htm
http://www.schoolhouse.org.uk/
http://www.gomilpitas.com/homeschooling/regional/UK.htm
http://www.home-ed.co.uk/inform9.html
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Lake/3262/heglimpses.htm
http://www.silencingthebell.btinternet.co.uk/parentsstb.html
http://home.att.net/~bandcparker/forms.html

[Atheist_Divine]

Becky,
My primary school was extremely progressive. They did not believe in formal teaching - the idea was, you lead your four-year old to a bookcase, and get them to pick out any book from there that takes their fancy. From that book, without any help from a teacher, they will learn to read and write, and they will also learn maths.
Ludicrous, isn't it?
The school was also full of bullying, and fighting in the classrooms, and it was quite common for parents who didn't agree with the marks their child had got to come in and beat up the headteacher.
Unfortunately I was 7 before my parents realised how bad the school was, and moved me - I had managed to learn to read and right, but knew no maths and had to have special tuition in the private school I moved to. If it had been possible to move to another state school we would have - private schools are expensive - but that school was the only state school in my area! It got closed down a little later, and the staff changed. Apparently its ok now, but it was dreadful when I was there.
I don't have children yet (I'm only 21), but thanks for the urls anyway! :)

AD

[Prisca]

Thanks for your story. It reminds me a bit of an experience we had when my oldest daughter was in 2nd grade. During a parent-teacher conference one afternoon, the teacher pulled out a paragraph our daughter had written. We could barely read a word of it, but the teacher was raving over it. She said, “Look how she’s trying to sound out all these words! Isn’t that wonderful?” She told us that she was using the “whole language” approach. The idea was to avoid correcting student errors because that tends to inhibit creativity.

We were young parents who had been taught to trust our educational system. At the time, this approach seemed reasonable. But for years, my daughter had difficulty spelling certain words because the incorrect information had been imprinted into her mind. That is a difficult thing to overcome. I now have my children correct everything they spell immediately and they seem as creative as ever.

Analogy:

If you are going to teach someone to sew, you don’t just throw him a piece of cloth. You show him how to thread the needle and how to form each stitch. Once he has learned properly, his clothes will not come apart at the seams. LOL.

[Projill]

Becky, I'm sorry your daughter had such an experience. My elementary years were probably more like yours: do it like they taught it repeatedly until you do it right. I can honestly say, despite the overall poor quality of my state's schools, I grew up with a pretty good grasp of grammar and spelling. But with the poorest quality math education money couldn't buy.

[Atheist_Divine]

Thanks for your story. It reminds me a bit of an experience we had when my oldest daughter was in 2nd grade. During a parent-teacher conference one afternoon, the teacher pulled out a paragraph our daughter had written. We could barely read a word of it, but the teacher was raving over it. She said, “Look how she’s trying to sound out all these words! Isn’t that wonderful?” She told us that she was using the “whole language” approach. The idea was to avoid correcting student errors because that tends to inhibit creativity.

Yes, I've heard about that method of teaching. Phonetic spelling was supposed to make it easier, but it didn't, in the end. It was part of a whole raft of progressive new teaching methods which, while created with the best of intentions, were disastrous for the children involved. I was lucky from the kids in my school - I was naturally attracted to reading and actually wound up ahead of my contemporaries in it once I moved schools, though with tremendously poor maths - but some of the other kids will probably have remained illiterate, or semi-illiterate simply because it is harder to teach an adult these things. What really made me annoyed is that the Councillor who was in charge of my school on the Local Authority went on to become the Government Minister in charge of school standards! :rolleyes:

When was your daughter in school? As far as I know the really progressive stuff was popular in the 1980's, when I was in primary school. I was actually among the last set of kids to get sex ed lessons about homosexuality, before it was (technically) made illegal - we got taught about it at 6, as I remember. That was about the only thing that school did right - though you may well not agree with me on that!

[missedmarks]

My public school education was horrible.

I had ADD before it was "Fashionable" and no one knew what it was. Teachers, Parents and myself had a hard time figuring out why I tested in the top end of my class, but accademicaly lagged behind.

Plus I was horribly bored. I taught myself to read in kindergarten and was a step ahead for the first few years of school. Things never did get straightened out although they 'discovered' ADD while I was in High School. At least I had an explanation.

I considered homeschooling my son, but we managed to find a good 'alternative' school for him. He is really doing well there. Im not sure what we will do when he gets older (He's 5 right now) but Im sure God will take care of us.

[lucybelle]

Well that's all very nice and interesting...but I see that no one has touched on the fact that homeschooled students are NOT lacking in "social skills." I ought to know...for my last two years of highschool I was homeschooled. I know what you're thinking..."wow, her last two years of school! that had to have been no fun, she missed prom and lots of parties..poor thing" But you are wrong. I can honestly say, I engaged in more activites with peers outside of the public school than I did inside it. I learned more, studied at my own pace, (while others my age were still learning things I had mastered) and I got to have just as much fun. For example, did you know that there are homeschool societies that nurture the fine arts, or athletic societys that build positive Christian atmospheres for homeschooled students. Or...for that matter, there are complete societies themselves that are specifically support groups for homeschooled students to have interaction with others. Homeschooling really gives kids a heads up in the world, while the other kids my age were putting condoms on bananas in sex education classes I was learning something that is far more important...I was learning to love my family and respect my parents. How many highschool kids can you think of who would call their parents their best friends? Now that I am older, I thank my parents daily for not sending me back to school where 3 of the 10 girls on my cheerleading squad got pregnant in less than 2 months. I don't know about you, but I believe that it is my job to ensure that when I have kids, they learn the important things, stuff that they don't teach in the public school, love and respect.
Lucybelle

[Prisca]

You said, “When was your daughter in school? As far as I know the really progressive stuff was popular in the 1980's, when I was in primary school.”

My daughters were in public school from 1986 – 1994. As far as I can tell, things have not changed all that much. I occasionally tutor my neighbor’s 13 year-old daughter in math. The book her school is using is a piece of garbage! The questions are vague, there are no constructive examples on how to perform the equations, and much is left up to the students “intuition.” Her mother, who is a special-ed teacher at another school, can’t even help her with her homework.

As an example of how messed up the school system can be, read the following and try to guess what the local school board decided to do:

About 4 years ago, a few schools in my district were using Saxon math. It became apparent that the students from those schools were receiving higher math scores on the standardized tests than those at other schools. Something had to be done to make things more “fair.” What do you think they decided to do?

the answer (http://www.edfreefoundation.org/newsletters/98/may.htm)

[Prisca]

You said, “I was actually among the last set of kids to get sex ed lessons about homosexuality, before it was (technically) made illegal - we got taught about it at 6, as I remember. That was about the only thing that school did right - though you may well not agree with me on that!”

What could they possibly teach a 6 year old about homosexuality? Never mind. I don’t want to know. :(

[Prisca]

You said, “I don't know about you, but I believe that it is my job to ensure that when I have kids, they learn the important things, stuff that they don't teach in the public school, love and respect.”

Thank you, Lucybelle! Your entire post was a great example of what homeschooling is all about.

You also said, “Now that I am older, I thank my parents daily for not sending me back to school where 3 of the 10 girls on my cheerleading squad got pregnant in less than 2 months.Your cheerleading squad reminded me of what happened at one of the schools here in Colorado:

Abstinence-only advocates point to another study to support their case. In Adams City High in Commerce, Colorado, the first in the U.S. to hand out condoms, the birth rate soared to 31 percent above the national average after three years of the program, according to USA Today. For the abstinence advocates, this finding confirms one of their greatest criticisms of the safe-sex programs. Says Sex Respect's Sullivan: "They have been implementing their sex-education programs stressing birth control for 30 years, and during the same time teenage pregnancies and teenage STDs have increased exponentially." According to government figures between 1970 and 1987, teen pregnancies have increased from 300,000 to 750,000 a year, even though more teens are using contraceptives. (http://loritapia.com/andrestapia/HTML/spirituality/sexed.htm)

Thanks again,
Becky

[Atheist_Divine]

Becky,
My daughters were in public school from 1986 – 1994. As far as I can tell, things have not changed all that much.

I don't know how things are in the US, you understand, but the UK's big period of progressive teaching methods was in the 80's. I don't quite understand why it was the 80's, as we were under a Conservative government at the time, but that seemed to be the period of a huge explosion in political correctness. I remember being forbidden to read Enid Blyton books, for example, because they are sexist. I remember how irritating that was - as we weren't stupid, we were aware they were sexist, but we ignored that!
In the late 80's - early 90's our compulsory National Curriculum came in, which stopped some of the inequalities in education. Now every school has to follow the same curricula, whether private or public - because pupils are examined on that curricula. If the schools do badly because they have continued to teach in a stupid way, then they are closed down (as my school was), and new staff are appointed, or a government task force is sent to sort it out. Also, of course, the kids who did badly under the old system have gone on to do badly in the exams, and people have noticed that that system was badly flawed.
There are still problems - now because it is government ministers and civil servants who set the curriculum and exams - with input from teachers - but they are not teachers themselves. The only ministers who have had teaching experience tend to be university lecturers, and that is an entirely different method of teaching. Its getting better, though, but there are still problems.

About 4 years ago, a few schools in my district were using Saxon math. It became apparent that the students from those schools were receiving higher math scores on the standardized tests than those at other schools. Something had to be done to make things more “fair.” What do you think they decided to do?

Thats ridiculous. The article said the maths program was withdrawn because of political correctness - but how can maths be politically incorrect?
Wierd.

What could they possibly teach a 6 year old about homosexuality? Never mind. I don’t want to know.

I don't remember all that well. I do know that the school I went to was an example of the schools that eventually moved the government to institute "Clause 28" - which prohibited the promotion of homosexuality. This clause has since been repealed in Scotland - I took part in the campaigns leading up to it being repealed. They were claiming gay pornography was being given to primary school children (which wasn't, in fact, the case). I rather think we were just told that some people loved members of the same sex, I doubt they would have given us anything stronger, not at the age of 6. I do know that when I was reading a biography of a scientist, when I was 7, and it mentioned that he was persecuted for being gay, I understood what that was and couldn't understand why he would be attacked for it. So evidently I remembered something of what I had been taught!

~AD~

[Atheist_Divine]

Becky,

Abstinence-only advocates point to another study to support their case. In Adams City High in Commerce, Colorado, the first in the U.S. to hand out condoms, the birth rate soared to 31 percent above the national average after three years of the program, according to USA Today. For the abstinence advocates, this finding confirms one of their greatest criticisms of the safe-sex programs. Says Sex Respect's Sullivan: "They have been implementing their sex-education programs stressing birth control for 30 years, and during the same time teenage pregnancies and teenage STDs have increased exponentially." According to government figures between 1970 and 1987, teen pregnancies have increased from 300,000 to 750,000 a year, even though more teens are using contraceptives.

We had a lot of teenage pregnancies at one of the schools I went to - but we also had little sex ed. What we did have was someone who told us not to have sex - because it was bad...as I recall - I don;t think the two things are necessarily linked. We got all the old myths circulating - you know the ones, you can't get pregnant if you do it standing up, if its your first time blah blah blah.
Fortunately, my mother used to buy me good sex ed books for my age group, so I at least had correct information - but others did not. To my mind, it was their ignorance which caused the teenage pregnancies, as they were taught abstinence.

[1013]

Beanieboy asked about how social skills are developed for homeschoolers.

I went to public school, and as a geek, there was nothing sociallizing about it. kids are jerks.

Not all of school was so bad though. I eventually joined both choir and band and somehow, that scheduals you away from the morons destined for jail. not only that, alot of those guys ended up going to vocational school.

aside from that, I'd say that my school was a pretty good public school. the typical steriotype is that most teachers are flkey liberals. At my school, we had a mixture of liberal and conservative teachers. BUt even some of the liberals were in name only and in fact closet conservatives.

on sex ed, I had really flaky teacher promote safe sex, "condoms only have a failure rate of 5% (it was something like that)" :rolleyes:

our school also invited the toledo crisis pregnancy center to come in and promote abstinence.

There was a lot of good and bad.

I'd recomend that homeschoolers do a combination for some things. For example, if your in a district with a good choir program, that is priceless. church choir is absolutely no substitute and the training a good choir teacher can offer simply cannot be reproduced in the home unless you have a degree in music.

some of the higher level science and math coarses also might be good to take at public. and of coarse, sports programs are nonexistent in the home compared to what you could have at public.

I know of a family that had there kid at a private christian school but switched to a combination of public and hoemschooling. they used the school's sports programs and there higher science coarses.

On the music issue, we have alot of homeschoolers at my church, many of whom are good at piano, but the singing skills they acquire cannot compare to the kids who recieved a music education at public school.

of coarse this all depends on whether your district will allow such a thing and they may have crappy programs in music and other areas

[Prisca]

You said, “Thats ridiculous. The article said the maths program was withdrawn because of political correctness - but how can maths be politically incorrect?
Wierd.”
What the article actually said was:
The schools had been using the program which the parents like, because their children have been scoring above the district and national averages on math tests. It seems that successful results are not enough for some school board members and that political correctness outweighs high test scores. I say political correctness is a factor here because the Saxon Math program has been in use for some time now by home school parents and it looks bad for the same program to be outperforming the public school's official programs. The students at all three schools scored above the district and national average on the Iowa Test of Basic Skills.
So, it wasn’t that the Saxon Math program was “politically incorrect” in and of itself, but that it seemed “politically incorrect” for some schools to be using a program that was outperforming other programs, especially because it was also being used by homeschool families.

[Prisca]

You said, “We had a lot of teenage pregnancies at one of the schools I went to - but we also had little sex ed. What we did have was someone who told us not to have sex - because it was bad...as I recall - I don’t think the two things are necessarily linked.”
Let me ask you this, where there more teen pregnancies before the schools began sex education programs or after they began sex education programs?

Now I know you’re pretty young, so you may not know the answer right away. But what do you think?

Let me just add this, when I was in fifth grade (in about 1968) our schools where just beginning to add sex education to the curriculum. It was a bit of a controversy and many parents were not sure what they should do. But in the end, most trusted the education system to do what they thought was right.

[Prisca]

You said, “On the music issue, we have alot of homeschoolers at my church, many of whom are good at piano, but the singing skills they acquire cannot compare to the kids who recieved a music education at public school. ”
There may be some truth to this, as my kids are not interested in singing at all. They would hate it if I signed them up for choir. I, on the other hand, truly enjoyed choir when I was in school.

But in defense of homeschoolers, I must tell you that we have a homeschooled girl on our worship team at church. She has a beautiful voice and she isn’t afraid to use it. Her family seems to place a high value on the performing arts, and it shows. I suppose it all depends on the families and individuals involved.

[Atheist_Divine]

Becky,
Let me ask you this, where there more teen pregnancies before the schools began sex education programs or after they began sex education programs?

We never had a proper sex ed class. We just got told not to do it. Teenage pregnancies started rising around the same time as the rest of the region had an increase in teenage pregnancies. Most of the other schools did have sex ed classes, with free condoms etc, but we didn't.

[Prisca]

You said, “We never had a proper sex ed class. We just got told not to do it.
How did you know what "not to do"? The more detailed the sex ed programs seem to get, the worse the teen pregnancy problem becomes. I’m not saying kids shouldn’t be taught anything – just that there should be better judgment on the part of educators. When I was in school, we mostly learned about our own bodies and what to expect from maturation. When I reached high school, there was only one teen pregnancy that became public knowledge, from my graduating class. There was still a stigma attached to teen pregnancy that helped to protect many young people from engaging in risky behavior.

Just as with the drug awareness programs, which have only produced more drug abuse, sex education programs have produced more sexual promiscuity

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Becky

The more detailed the sex ed programs seem to get, the worse the teen pregnancy problem becomes...

Just as with the drug awareness programs, which have only produced more drug abuse, sex education programs have produced more sexual promiscuity You appear to be committing a logical fallacy here, Becky. You are attributing a percieved change in a complex set of behaviors (sexual practices, illicit drug use) to a single cause.

I'd suggest that this is overly simplistic. There is not a single peer-reviewed study that indicates that teaching kids about avoiding drug abuse increases the likelihood that the youngsters will abuse drugs sometime during their lives.

Remember there are many other contributing factors to drug abuse and sexual activity among minors, including: a larger selection of drugs is available now than was available thirty years ago
drug prices have gone down (per dose) compared to thirty years ago
innumerable public figures (politicians, sports stars, clergy, police, etc.) have been arrested and prosecuted for possessing and using illegal drugs or engaging in illegal sexual activity and received minimal sentences
funds from illegal drug trade has well-documented ties to supporting a number of national governments
"selling with sex" is a staple tradition of American advertising over the last fifty or so years

Hardly an exhaustive list, but it illustrates the tip of the iceberg that sexuality and illegal drug use forms in our society.

[lucybelle]

Oh yeah...about the music thing...I am a voice major now.. I was homeschooled and believe it or not I learned how to sing through being homeschooled. We have a group that does musicals...everything from Joesph and the Amazing Techincolor Dreamcoat to The Sound of Music...Homeschoolers can sing, and not to brag, but some of us are pretty darn good. So...yea, we sing, and we have plenty of opportunities to.
Lucy

[Atheist_Divine]

Becky,
When I was in school, we mostly learned about our own bodies and what to expect from maturation.

Our sex ed teacher was a little strange...I don't recall her telling us anything at all. Except that rape is always a woman's fault, and sex is bad. We got told nothing of what to expect from puberty, nothing about what sex is, how its done etc etc.

There was still a stigma attached to teen pregnancy that helped to protect many young people from engaging in risky behavior.

Doesn't do much for those who became pregnant though. To be stigmatised for a mistake, and these things tend to pass on to the children too.
Most unpleasant.

~AD~

[Prisca]

You said, “You are attributing a perceived change in a complex set of behaviors (sexual practices, illicit drug use) to a single cause.”
Actually, I would agree that there are many factors that contribute to the problems of teen drug use and sexual promiscuity, but there is a historical relationship between the rise of these problems and the educational programs used by the schools.

"Basically, we have found again and again that drug education in schools causes kids to take on drugs and alcohol sooner than they would without the education." Richard H. Blum, Stanford University School of Medicine. (http://www.familywatch.org/library/v98.n1117.a03.html)

For example, the DARE program, which began in LA during the 1980’s and eventually spread throughout the country, is aimed primarily at 5th graders, but according to a 1996-97 PRIDE (National Parents' Resource Institute for Drug Education) survey, the rate of drug use among 6th, 7th, and 8th graders reported significant increases in the use of marijuana, cocaine, uppers, downers, hallucinogens, and heroin abuse. Coincidence or evidence?

[Prisca]

You said, “Our sex ed teacher was a little strange...I don't recall her telling us anything at all. Except that rape is always a woman's fault, and sex is bad. We got told nothing of what to expect from puberty, nothing about what sex is, how it’s done etc, etc.”
Well, your experience with one “strange” teacher doesn’t add much to the argument at hand. I have presented evidence that demonstrates relationships between educational programs and increases in sexual promiscuity (page 3) and drug abuse (above). It seems as if you are attempting to avoid the real issue.
You said, “Doesn't do much for those who became pregnant though. To be stigmatised for a mistake, and these things tend to pass on to the children too.
Most unpleasant.
You miss the point. The stigma helps to prevent the “mistake.” It is not 100% foolproof, but it does work. In the end, what does society (and the individual) gain from this type of stigma? Where do we start? Take a moment to contemplate the problems that could be avoided if individuals, on a large scale, were discouraged from engaging in these risky behaviors. The sociological use of stigmas, in regard to dangerous or risky behavior can, and does, have a positive impact on the community at large.

P.S. to Zakath - I am not advocating ALL types of stigmas.;)

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Becky

Actually, I would agree that there are many factors that contribute to the problems of teen drug use and sexual promiscuity, but there is a historical relationship between the rise of these problems and the educational programs used by the schools. There's an old saw used when teaching statistics and probability in undergrad school that everyone who tries to use statistics should be aware of:

Correlation does not equal causation.

Just because two or more events occur close to each other in time, there does not need to be a causitive relationship.

For example, there has been a traditional relationship presented by certain religious groups asserting that the banning of prayer in public schools is responsible for the rise in disorder and crime in those schools. Yet when we look at the data for the years prior to 1963 and graph it along side the post prayer-banning data, it is easily seen that the rise is merely the continuation of an existing trend which began in the early 1950's. The banning of prayer was merely an incident which people use to "sell their point".

Comparing a study group to a control group (a group where the variable or suspected cause did not change) is sometimes helpful to determine whether the cause is really a cause or just a co-related event. In the case described above, one might compare the problem rates in schools which did not ban prayer, the Roman Catholic parochial schools, to see if they rose over the same period. Their problem rate shows a similar rise (though not as steep).

For example, the DARE program, which began in LA during the 1980?s and eventually spread throughout the country, is aimed primarily at 5th graders, but according to a 1996-97 PRIDE (National Parents' Resource Institute for Drug Education) survey, the rate of drug use among 6th, 7th, and 8th graders reported significant increases in the use of marijuana, cocaine, uppers, downers, hallucinogens, and heroin abuse. Coincidence or evidence?

Remember: correlation does not equal causation. Did PRIDE do any studies comparing the drug use rates in similar schools that did not use the DARE program over the same period of time?

If not, then whoever designed the study is doing what is called "cherry picking" the data to prove a political point.

I found PRIDE's annual survey press release for 2000-2001 school year and their statistics were interesting... (see http://www.pridesurveys.com/press/2000-01/2001prl.pdf )

There was a 0.1 % (yes, that one-tenth of one percent) rise in 2000-2001 admissions of drug use by the jr. high kids surveyed.

This follows a steady drop in the rate of admitted use for the same group every year for the preceding four years.

So, if we were ignorant of scientific and mathematical judgement, we could say that electing a Republican to the White House produced a rise in junior high drug abuse. But, in reality, that would not be a valid conclusion to draw without other corraborating information, because correlation does not equal causation.

I hope that illustrates my point...

[Atheist_Divine]

Becky,
Well, your experience with one “strange” teacher doesn’t add much to the argument at hand. I have presented evidence that demonstrates relationships between educational programs and increases in sexual promiscuity (page 3) and drug abuse (above). It seems as if you are attempting to avoid the real issue.

As I see Zakath is bringing out surveys and whatnot, I'll not go scouring the net for more. I present my experience where advocating abstinence did absolutely nothing to decrease the level of teenage pregnancies. We followed every other school - there had been few to no teenage pregnancies before I and my contemporaries came to school, and we had a fair few while we where there. The teaching had not changed, abstinence was still advocated. Girls still got pregnant. Possibly people were more promiscuous - but in my school at least, this had absolutely nothing to do with abstinence being taught. I think you must look for other factors.

You miss the point. The stigma helps to prevent the “mistake.” It is not 100% foolproof, but it does work. In the end, what does society (and the individual) gain from this type of stigma? Where do we start? Take a moment to contemplate the problems that could be avoided if individuals, on a large scale, were discouraged from engaging in these risky behaviors. The sociological use of stigmas, in regard to dangerous or risky behavior can, and does, have a positive impact on the community at large.

The good of the many outweighs the good of the few?

[Evangelion]

The title of this thread was "Danger, Public School Ahead."

But the author of the original article was actually discussing the Colombine massacre - an incident which has nothing to do with public schools, and everything to do with gun control.

Could it be that this is just another way of passing the buck, so as to preserve the oh-so-precious 2nd Amendment?

I mean, what's the point of getting on your high horse and teaching your kids at home, if at the same time you're brainwashing those kids to believe that they have an inalienable right to keep and bear arms?

It's a moral contradiction.

[Pilgrimagain]

Evangelion, I can't help but agree. The idea that it was Public School that caused the tragedy and not lax gun control is simply absurd.

Peace,
Pilgrim

PS I know that there was personal responsability on the parts of the kids and parents involved but ultimately it is the human inability to take responsability the requires adequate gun control laws.

[Evangelion]

I knew there was a reason I liked you, Pilgrim.

Thanks for the support.

:up:

[me again]

I used to be a school resource officer, so I am very familiar with all the new protocols on how to handled an emergency crisis in a school. At Columbine, the sheriff’s office was criticized for not being swifter (for not going into the school quickly to stop the student-shooters). As a result, the Columbine incident has been studied extensively and "responce techniques" are changing.

A growing philosophy among law enforcement agencies is to go directly into the school when the first three or four patrol officers arrive on-scene (that is, if you have an “active shooter” in the school). We have now been trained in such methods. Naturally, the officers have no idea who the good students are and who the bad students are, unless weapons are seen, particularly in the larger public schools.

We have been trained to enter any school in three man teams using urban combat techniques, sort of like going door-to-door in WWII combat movies. Every officer on my agency has received this type of training to prepare for the worst. The goal is to ”stop the threat” by any means necessary (shoot to kill).

In the old days (prior to the Columbine incident), patrol officers were trained to encircle the perimeter and to wait for the SWAT team to arrive. This methodology was implemented at Columbine, but the political backlash of ”waiting” while students were possibly being shot has changed the philosophy of many agencies.

FYI

[Evangelion]

The very fact that the Religious Right is opposed to any form of gun control should tell you that American Christianity is wildly astray from the Biblical model.

The very fact that your police have been forced to establish an official response policy for high school shootings should tell you that your society is more perverted than you could possibly imagine.

The very fact that Australia (along with every other nation in the developed West) has never found any need for such a policy, should tell you that we are getting it right where you are getting it wrong.

[me again]

Posted by Evangelion
The very fact that the Religious Right is opposed to any form of gun control should tell you that American Christianity is wildly astray from the Biblical model.

The very fact that your police have been forced to establish an official response policy for high school shootings should tell you that your society is more perverted than you could possibly imagine.

The very fact that Australia (along with every other nation in the developed West) has never found any need for such a policy, should tell you that we are getting it right where you are getting it wrong.
Hi Evangelion,

I differ from almost everyone that I associate with in that I am pro gun control. I would like to see the second amendment abolished, but I may not have to do this because the courts interpretation of it is doing it for me.

For example, at the inception of the United States, the second amendment guaranteed that an American citizen could take his ”ball and musket” anywhere in this country, to include through cities and across state lines. I dare anyone to try that today!!! Ordinances and laws have been created that restrict (alter) the second amendments right to keep and bear arms.

Another explicit example is the state of Hawaii where all firearms must be registered. The right wingers don’t know about this statewide law!!! Does it abridge the second amendment? For example, you can keep and bear arms as long as you register them with the state....

I believe in Jesus, but I have seen too many gun nuts to the point that I think that guns should be highly controlled items. However, I do believe that my opinion is in the minority. Contrarily and nonetheless, guns will someday be outlawed with the stroke of a pen.

[Evangelion]

Amen!

:)

[firechyld]

There has actually been a huge outcry in the news about gang violence in Sydney schools following an incident a few days ago in a school in Western Sydney.

It involved a boy with a machete. Two other boys were hospitalised with minor injuries and are both doing fine.

This made national news, and is considered grounds for major examination of gangs in Australian schools.

Now, I'm not saying that a boy with a machete is necessarily better than several boys with shotguns..... oh wait, yes I am. ;)

While I agree that people are responsible for the violence they perpetrate, I also feel that saying "No, actually, you're not allowed to have a gun" is a good step towards preventing them from acting on those violent urges in a murderous, massacre-type fashion.

[Evangelion]

Of course, gang violence of the type you describe is not the result of social problems, but merely a foreign import which has no place in our otherwise peaceful country.

Over here in Wesern Australia, we have several small gangs - two Chinese, one Vietnamese, and one Lebanese - who occasionally attack each other outside nightclubs on the weekend.

All of them are openly condemned by their respective ethnic communities.

And rightly so.

[Prisca]

Evangelion, you said, “The very fact that Australia (along with every other nation in the developed West) has never found any need for such a policy, should tell you that we are getting it right where you are getting it wrong. ”

My aunt and uncle are currently visiting Australia and sent an email about a memorial they visited in Port Arthur. They said they visited a site where a gunman killed 35 people in 1996. A rare incident in your country, but we see that it can happen almost anywhere.

Don’t misunderstand me, I realize that Australia has an incredibly low homicide rate (somewhere around 2.1 per 100,000 compared with the current US rate of 5.5 per 100,000.) They point is, “monsters” can be created almost anywhere. It could be that Australia, with its small population of only 18.5 million (in 2000) just hasn’t “caught up” demographically with the US and its population of 287 million (POPClock (http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html)).

[Evangelion]

Becky -

They point is, “monsters” can be created almost anywhere.

Agreed. I was in Tasmania at the time when the Port Arthur massacre took place.
I have friends who were personally affected by it - friends who lost friends and business colleagues of their own.

It could be that Australia, with its small population of only 18.5 million (in 2000) just hasn’t “caught up” demographically with the US and its population of 287 million (POPClock).

It's tempting to think that demographics is the only factor at work here. But history proves otherwise. (Compare the US homicide record with a nation of comparable size, and you'll see what I mean.)

The bottom line is that Australia does not have a gun culture (and doesn't want one!), while America does.

This is the most significant factor. Before you address anything else, this issue must first be dealt with.

[Prisca]

I was sorry to hear that your friends were affected by the 1996 shooting. That incident must have been very painful to your otherwise peaceful country. No community expects such a terrible thing to happen. I know that from first hand experience. The cross that hangs in our church was made by the father of one of the victims of the Columbine High School shooting. It was very difficult to witness the pain this family went through following the loss of their son.
You said, “It's tempting to think that demographics is the only factor at work here. But history proves otherwise. (Compare the US homicide record with a nation of comparable size, and you'll see what I mean.)”
I in no way meant to imply that demographics were the only factor. It seemed worth noting that there is a huge population difference between our two countries that could contribute to the difference in murder rates. Certainly there are many factors involved that we have not even considered.

In 1840 the US population was 16,987,946. That’s as close as I could get to the Australia’s current population. A lot has changed in the US since then, so it is almost impossible to make a comparison based on population alone. We will just have to wait and see. You might check out the info at: http://www.agd.nsw.gov.au/bocsar1.nsf/pages/media160699
The info is a few years old but still worth noting.

[Sozo]

:think: