Should we pay tithes to be bless and free?

[c.moore]

I do believe in tithes myself ; and we teach this doctrine time after time.

I just got through reading this link about tithes and it gave me second thoughts.

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=161

So many people say it is not in the new testament and can`t be found , plus it is the old law and we are not under the OT , but the 10% is finished paid at the cross through Jesus .

What is you opinion or belief on this??

I might be confussed on this but I do stand on what the bible say`s here :Mal:3:8: Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal:3:9: Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation.
Mal:3:10: Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Mal:3:11: And I will rebuke the devourer for your s

So when I don`t pay my tithes I feel condemned and curse, and my prayers are stoped and not answered, and I am not blessed and can`t bless others.
A matter of fact some people in my church say they are not even allowed to seat with me because I am a thief if I don`t pay tithes, or any one else who doesn`t pay tithes can`t preach at our church even as a pastor or leader.

I need help on this because i HAVE A big heritance will coming from my father death, so I want to pay tithes on this to my church but have a hard time trying to pay over $40.000 for tithes to my church in peace.
My wife has a greater problem and is in disagreement and lack of faith in giving tithes so it is a problem in my family as one in agreement in giving tithes.

if someone has more proof on this we need all the proof we can get.


God Bless

[Sozo]

Why do you keep rehasing this subject over and over ad nauseam?

Jesus is our tithe.

The tithe has been paid!

[Crow]

c.moore--

Personally, I equate paying tithes with baptism. Are we, as Christians, chained to works and the Law? No.

That does not mean that we don't support our churches. It means that we should support our churches as we relate to each other. Not by a set of rules, but out of the Spirit working through us, guiding us.

Tithes were a requirement of the circumcision. You and I are dead to the Law. If you observe the way funds are gathered by the apostles after the crucifixion, it was done by freewill offerings. And that is how we should support our churches.

[Crow]

c.moore--

If you pay tithes, you might as well add in that baptism and circumcision and adherence to the dietary laws are necessary--all are of the circumcision and the Law.

Certainly we should support our churches, but through freewill offerings, not by clinging to a Law that is not applicable to those of us dead to the Law by grace.

We should support our churches because of the Spirit working through us.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Crow

c.moore--

If you pay tithes, you might as well add in that baptism and circumcision and adherence to the dietary laws is necessary--all are of the circumcision and the Law.

Certainly we should support our churches, but through freewill offerings, not by clinging to a Law that is not applicable to those of us dead to the Law by grace.

We should support our churches because of the Spirit working through us.

What :crow: said :thumb:

...and the fact that Jesus is our tithe; the tithe has been paid!

[c.moore]

Why do Charismatic churches teach this , and claim those who don´t pay it is cursed , and they are thieves?

Also they say it is not a law it is a way of showing your love to God , and´the tithes belong to God in the first place.

Why people fall under condemnation when the tithes are not payed??

[Lighthouse]

Thank you. I needed this.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by c.moore

Why do Charismatic churches teach this , and claim those who don´t pay it is cursed , and they are thieves?


Because the heirarchy of the "Charismatic" churches are in the business of being blessed by those whom they choose to control through their false teachings.

Also they say it is not a law it is a way of showing your love to God , and´the tithes belong to God in the first place.

If ever there were an evil form of manipulation, what you just said is it!

btw... Just so you know, "manipulation" is just another word for witchcraftWhy people fall under condemnation when the tithes are not payed?? Because the people in the charismatic chrurches (for the most part), are under the mind control of those whom they listen to, rather than the Holy Spirit. However, it is their own fault, because the majority of people in the charismatic churches are there because they want something from God, and are not there for God.

[BillyBob]

I once talked with a guy who was a Pentecostal. He walked me through his house and showed me what God had 'bought' for him. He said that it was his reward and if I wanted to improve my monetary status, I had to go to church with him and learn more. I went to his church on my own....once. It was a trip! The 'Pastor' talked mainly about money, tithes and rewards from God. The people were whipped into a frenzy, stood up and started chanting and caterwauling. It sounded just like an 'Indian War Party' preparing for battle.

I got the hell out of there as fast as I could.

[elected4ever]

Tithing under the law was 22.5% and not 10 % So the idea of a tithe in todays churches is a figment of someones imagination. It is just designed to get you to give a certain amount so that they can keep there books easer. Using the law to put someone on a guilt trip so he will give is coercion.

The giving to get heresy is just that heresy. What is it that God the Father will not give to his children that He would give if they tithe. God loves His children. I have three grand children that I love. I buy thinks and feed them because of who they are not for what I require from them. I am sure the blessings of God are based on my relationship to Him. Not what he requires of me. I am His child.

My grand children don't have anything I need so why require it of them? Where would they get it anyway? What do they have that they did not receive from me. What do I have that I did not receive? My grandchildren do give me things but they give them to me because they love me because I first loved them I give things to God because I love Him . I love Him because He first loved me.

Did you ever see a child's face when you make a fuse over some little effort they made to make you happy. I'm sure the Father is the same way. The children's effort was not given by demand but because of love. They just had a bad case of I wont too and it is the same with God.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

Why do you keep rehasing this subject over and over ad nauseam?

Jesus is our tithe.

The tithe has been paid!


Paul taught systematic and proportionate giving in 2 Cor. 8 and 9

Jesus did not pay our tithe. Only we can give to the ministry of the Gospel. If we quit giving, there would be no missions, leadership, churches, Bibles, etc.

Giving more than a tip to God reflects stewardship and His Lordship in our lives. It is an act of worship and an important step of obedience. The principles of giving and the law were not rescinded in the NT. We should still honor our parents, not steal, not lust, etc. The moral law of God was not dissolved on the cross. Much of the ceremonial law for Jews is not applicable for us.

The tithe predated the Law (Genesis= Melchizedek). It is a solid guideline for all believers. It is not a legalism, but something we do cheerfully with a motive of love for God and others. We do not give to get (wrong motive). It is not a formula, but an expression of love and obedience.

One of my profs did a doctoral thesis on tithing. The evidence and final conclusion pointed to the reasonableness of tithing as a guideline for NT believers.

God is not broke. He does not need our money. There is no use giving to Him (we are not giving to man) if we do not have the right motive. It is unfortunate that ministry is hindered by the selfishness of believers. Let us not be like the churches that need bingos and bake sales to keep afloat (non-tithers), while cults like Mormons (tithers) grow and thrive.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Paul taught systematic and proportionate giving in 2 Cor.



Verse, please.Jesus did not pay our tithe The portion, sanctifies the whole. Jesus is our tithe. Maybe not yours, however.

Only we can give to the ministry of the Gospel. If we quit giving, there would be no missions, leadership, churches, Bibles, etc. Nobody said anything about not giving. Giving more than a tip to God reflects stewardship and His Lordship in our lives Verse, please.

It is an act of worship and an important step of obedience. Verse, please.

The principles of giving and the law were not rescinded in the NT. So when was the last time you sacrificed a goat for your sins?

The moral law of God was not dissolved on the cross. Much of the ceremonial law for Jews is not applicable for us. You have no biblical support for such a stupid comment.The tithe predated the Law (Genesis= Melchizedek). It is a solid guideline for all believers.

The only other time "tithe" is referred to is the incident where Abraham paid a tenth of his goods to Melchizedek. However that was a one time gift Abraham gave of his own free will as a public act of thanksgiving for a military victory, not as an act of obedience to a command of God. Furthermore, the fact that something was practiced before the Law does not make it a permanent command of God. If we use Abraham as an example for tithing then we need to follow him in other areas as well, such as circumcision and animal sacrifice. It's funny that those last two areas are rarely mentioned along with tithing. (Gen. 14, 15 & 16) The real point of this incident as quoted in the New Testament is to show the supremacy of our priesthood in Christ represented by Melchizedek over the priesthood of Levi, a descendent of Abraham. (Hebrews 7:1-10)

...Bob George
It is not a legalism A phrase commonly used by legalists.

[c.moore]

But what does the New Testament say about tithes

Not a lot. In fact the only references to tithing in the New Testament are Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42, Luke 18:12 and Hebrew 7: 5 - 9.



1. Who was the first person to tithe?
2. Who told Abraham to tithe?
3. What is the relationship between tihes and offering?
4. What does the law have to do with tithing?
5. What were tithes used for in the Old Testament?
6. Do we still have these needs in the body of Christ today?
7. What do 'first fruits' and 'tithes' have in common?
8. What does the New Testament say about tithing?
9. Should a Christian give money to the work of God?
10. How much should a Christian constantly give to God's work?
11. What blessings are there to giving money to God's work?
12. Should we give less or more than they did in the Old Testament?
13. If we give ten percent of our income, could we, even with God's grace, still manage to survive on the rest?
14. Is God's work worth ten percent?
15. Can you explain Luke 16: 13 - 16 ?
16. Why do some Christians find it hard to give to God's work

also here are some question we should think about or that we are left with to study and know.


God Bless

[godrulz]

Originally posted by c.moore

I do believe in tithes myself ; and we teach this doctrine time after time.

I just got through reading this link about tithes and it gave me second thoughts.

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=161


The churches represented by this link deny the Deity of Christ. They quote Unitarian websites to deny this and the Trinity. They may have connections with the old Way International (cult).

There are better academic sources about tithing from a Christian perspective than the ramblings of a non-Christian group.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

The churches represented by this link deny the Deity of Christ. They quote Unitarian websites to deny this and the Trinity. They may have connections with the old Way International (cult).

There are better academic sources about tithing from a Christian perspective than the ramblings of a non-Christian group.

Yeah, you could try the cult that godrulz is a member!

[c.moore]

Originally posted by godrulz

The churches represented by this link deny the Deity of Christ. They quote Unitarian websites to deny this and the Trinity. They may have connections with the old Way International (cult).

There are better academic sources about tithing from a Christian perspective than the ramblings of a non-Christian group.

Do you know some good links on this subject it is very important for me and my family.

I am at the same time asking God to show me in truth the understanding of giving tithes in a deeper level without being under a law or legalism doctrine.


God Bless

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Sozo

Yeah, you could try the cult that godrulz is a member!

:confused: what cult does he belong too??:think: :confused:

Is he catholic, Mormon, JHW, SDA or Muslim or Budda?

[godrulz]

2 Cor. 8 and 9 PRINCIPLES of giving (e.g. not under compulsion, systematic, etc.)

I Cor. 16:2 "On the first day of the week (systematic), each one of you should set aside a sum of money (systematic) in keeping with his income (proportionate), saving it up (purposeful)..."

If you put together ALL the relevant verses on tithing and properly understand the atonement, the Law, principles vs legalisms, etc....tithing comes out as a reasonable guideline for the explicit principle of giving.

Check you heart and mind...this is between the individual conscience and God.

"Not how much of MY money will I give to GOD, BUT, how much of GOD'S money will I keep for myself?" - missionary statesman Oswald J. Smith

It is the Lord's tithe and my offerings. Alms are the last category and go beyond this. Generosity honors God; greed dishonors God. Seek first and invest in His kingdom more than this life (Mt. 6).

Acts 20:35 "It is more blessed to give than to receive."

Legalistic questions about tithing (gross vs net; does it have to be 10%, etc.) miss the stewardship and heart of the matter.

If you do not tithe as a minimum to God, what do you use as a guideline? Do you drop $1 in the plate (this is not proportionate to income...remember the little lady Jesus commended and the Pharisees that He rebuked?) at Christmas only (this is not systematic= beginning of the week).

There is an academic issue here: what does the Bible teach on giving by way of principles?

There is a discipleship issue here: Do I have the selfish mentality of the pagan culture, or do I honor God even with my time, talents, AND treasures?

[elected4ever]

Should we pay tithes to be bless and free? c. moore, what makes you think that a child of God is not blessed and free? What makes you think that we need to pay tithes in order to be blessed and free? What blessings and what freedoms should we expect to gain by titheing that is not ours at present?:confused:

[godrulz]

Originally posted by c.moore

:confused: what cult does he belong too??:think: :confused:

Is he catholic, Mormon, JHW, SDA or Muslim or Budda?

Evangelical, Protestant Christian.

Conservative Pentecostal (in belief and experience). (equivalent of U.S. Assemblies of God)

Would agree with most statements of faith (essentials) by traditional Christian groups like Baptist, Anglican, Lutheran. Agree with great creeds of the Christian church.

Do not deny the Deity of Christ, etc. like cults do.


Sozo, what church, cult, religion do you identify with and is the understanding of giving principles a salvific issue (hint: NO!).

[godrulz]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Should we pay tithes to be bless and free? c. moore, what makes you think that a child of God is not blessed and free? What makes you think that we need to pay tithes in order to be blessed and free? What blessings and what freedoms should we expect to gain by titheing that is not ours at present?:confused:


Ephesians 1:3 "...who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with EVERY spiritual blessing IN CHRIST."

We do not give to get (wrong motive), but give as an expression of love, worship, obedience, stewardship to meet practical needs, (love relationship) etc. (principles support this...sozo, the Bible is not a systematic book of proof texts).

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

(principles support this...sozo, the Bible is not a systematic book of proof texts).

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ."

[elected4ever]

godrulz, did you read post #7

[Crow]

c.moore

My best advice is do what the Spirit leads you to do, and take into account your responsibilities as a Christian man. I do not believe that you can "buy" prosperity or blessings from God by giving, as some evangelists suggest. That is an evil "teaching" which has no place in the Body of Christ.

You have a responsibility to take care of your family. In 1 Timothy, we read:

8 If anyone does not provide for his relatives, and especially for his immediate family, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

This is worded very strongly. God has delegated the suport of your wife and children to you. Spending money to provide for their necessities is not stealing from God, even if it takes your last cent.

You also have a responsibility to your church, but I do not believe that it is tithing.

You alone among people know how much income it takes to feed and house your family, how likely or unlikely you are to have health problems that would decrease or end your earnings, and a host of other situations that would impact your finances. I would say look at the whole financial picture, with an eye to the responsibility that God has given you to provide for your family and the needs of your church.

Here's a link (http://www.straightistheway.com/economics/churchgiving.html) to a site that has a good essay on economics from a Biblical standpoint. I hope this is of help.

[elected4ever]

godrulz, I seem to detect a legalest wrapped in sheep clothing. I ask you, what blessing are we to expect if we tithe and what blessing are we to be denyed if we do not tithe? I have known rich people that did not tithe and pore people that did and guess what the rich remained rich and the poor remained poor. Is God therefore unjust? Are the poor in some manner cursed by God?

[godrulz]

Originally posted by elected4ever

godrulz, I seem to detect a legalest wrapped in sheep clothing. I ask you, what blessing are we to expect if we tithe and what blessing are we to be denyed if we do not tithe? I have known rich people that did not tithe and pore people that did and guess what the rich remained rich and the poor remained poor. Is God therefore unjust? Are the poor in some manner cursed by God?

Tithing is not a formula/technique that produces blessings or curses. It is not legalistic to worship, love and obey God in relationship. Is going to church legalism? Is giving legalism? Is praying legalism. They may or may not be depending on motive.

Phil. 4:10 ff is in a context of finances. Paul learned to be content in any circumstance, rich or poor. Why? "I can do everything through him who gives me strength." This does not mean he can leap tall buildings like superman. In context, it means he relies on God whether rich or poor. He meets our needs, not our greeds. Paul is thanking the Philippians for their generous support. The Bible probably talks more about money and stewardship than heaven and hell. There are everlasting priniciples in Scripture than should not be dismissed as legalism. Find the principles and stop looking for ways to be cheap with the things of the Kingdom. I have tithed for over 20 years and still struggle with debt, etc. I do not regret this expression of love and worship and helping advance the gospel despite not getting 100 fold in this life (this is a misinterpretation of the principle...we do not give to get $).

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

I have tithed for over 20 years and still struggle with debt, etc. I did not assume that you give to get from God, but there is no biblical support for tithing under the New Covenant.

Everyone, who attends a church, should give to support the church and it's ministries, the same as I would give to my neighbor who has need.

[elected4ever]

Tithing may very will be right for you. I do not object to tithing. What I do object to is bringing a person under a charge of poor stewardship if he does not. That is legalism. Such arguments have been used by the church for years to extort money from there members. I frankly would like to be like JC Penney and be able to give 90% and keep the 10% but for me to do so would be poor stewardship. In many cases for an individual to tithe would be poor stewardship. These people that cannot should not be placed under the burden of false guilt because of the greed of the church.

[c.moore]

Should also the tithes go only to my currect church or can I give it in other Godly work like missinary works or to the homeless, and etc?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by c.moore

Should also the tithes go only to my currect church or can I give it in other Godly work like missinary works or to the homeless, and etc?

I would say that this may be the perfect timing for the first smilie survivor...

:hammer:

[elected4ever]

What difference does it make? Do You keep tabs on all your charitable giving? You don't give after 10% when you have the ability to help someone in need? You use your so called tithe for tax purposes and you don't give if it is not reimbursed by the government? Why should such a thing concern you?

[godrulz]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Tithing may very will be right for you. I do not object to tithing. What I do object to is bringing a person under a charge of poor stewardship if he does not. That is legalism. Such arguments have been used by the church for years to extort money from there members. I frankly would like to be like JC Penney and be able to give 90% and keep the 10% but for me to do so would be poor stewardship. In many cases for an individual to tithe would be poor stewardship. These people that cannot should not be placed under the burden of false guilt because of the greed of the church.

Our motive should be to give as unto God. The church will be accountable for how they steward the funds. I do not perceive that Bible-based churches are greedy. They are often generous with other ministries as well as attending to their own needs.


1+1+1=3 in reality (this represents Mormon tritheism).

Do you mean 1x1x1=1 as a limited analogy of the Trinity?

[godrulz]

Originally posted by c.moore

Should also the tithes go only to my currect church or can I give it in other Godly work like missinary works or to the homeless, and etc?

The Malachi 'storehouse' principle could be used as a guideline. Support your local church first, since this is where you are fed. TV ministries that encourage the tithe to be given to them are undermining the local church, God's main instrument for growing His family and army.

[Sozo]

Don't sugarcoat it, godrulz! Either tithing is a command of God that requires strict obedience or there is punishment.

or

It is not a command, and God works in the hearts of each individual to give as he sees need.

[elected4ever]

godrulz Do you mean 1x1x1=1 as a limited analogy of the Trinity?

One God the Father plus One God the Son plus One God the Holy Spirit equals one God. There is no devision of the three and all exist in perfect harmony with each other. This is foreign to human thinking and defies Human logic. Nothing like this exist on earth that can demonstrate this principle. Our futile attempts to explain this logical has raised more questions than they have answered. I just discern the truth and accept it. I will know when I get home as we all will and our questions will all be answered.

[godrulz]

God is a compound unity. 3 in 1 and 1 in 3. I just think 1x1x1=1 is a better illustration since it shows how 3 things can be 1.

[elected4ever]

We are strangers in a foreign land. While we are here we see great need and the Father has given each of us the ability to minister in some way. It is normal for a citizen of a foreign country to use that which he has to improve the lives of those around him and to demonstrate the goodness of his homeland.

[c.moore]

But is Malachi for us Christians today or was the giving only to the Israelites?

Was the tithes for only the priest to give??

[godrulz]

Originally posted by c.moore

But is Malachi for us Christians today or was the giving only to the Israelites?

Was the tithes for only the priest to give??

We must interpret Malachi in context for the correct understanding. What did it mean to the original hearers? Check a commentary like Keil-Delitzsch.

If we apply it to the church, it would be by way of application and principle only. What does it mean to us (is there an application for all believers?) This is reasonable, but not the primary interpretation/application.

If the law required 10% +, then why is everyone trying to give less under grace? It seems to me we would at least give what the law required since we have the abundance and grace of Christ in our lives i.e. perhaps we should exceed what the law required. I think there is a reflection on the heart if everyone is trying to give the bare minimum to God. It is not the amount as much as the motive and heart that God values.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

We must interpret Malachi in context for the correct understanding. What did it mean to the original hearers? Check a commentary like Keil-Delitzsch.

If we apply it to the church, it would be by way of application and principle only. What does it mean to us (is there an application for all believers?) This is reasonable, but not the primary interpretation/application.

If the law required 10% +, then why is everyone trying to give less under grace? It seems to me we would at least give what the law required since we have the abundance and grace of Christ in our lives i.e. perhaps we should exceed what the law required. I think there is a reflection on the heart if everyone is trying to give the bare minimum to God. It is not the amount as much as the motive and heart that God values.

Do you just make things up as you go?

:nono:

[Turbo]

Jesus identified the tithe as part of the law, and a lesser matter at that:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Matthew 23:23

[cravescheese]

But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.

Pay tithes to yourself if you want.

You as a priest do not need to pay tithes to any other priests.

These full time pastors that preach tithing need to get a job and support themselves.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

Do you just make things up as you go?

:nono:

I suppose, but it is based on years of study. These are merely my reasonable opinions that have support from other believers or teachers.

What do you not understand about these basic hermeneutical principle?

i) Interpret Scripture in light of the historical, contextual, grammatical, theological context of the original audience (revelation was given centuries ago, not for the 21 st century). We must find the one intended meaning for the original audience.

e.g. Corinthians was written to first century believers in Corinth. It is issue literature. What did it mean to them?

ii) Once we know the one correct interpretation of a passage, we find the eternal principles and make applications for believers of all generations. There may be more than one application.

Sozo, you still have not identified what religion or denomination you identify with. Perhaps you are the subjective standard of truth?

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Turbo

Jesus identified the tithe as part of the law, and a lesser matter at that:

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Matthew 23:23

He still commended tithing, but their motive and lack in other areas was rebuked. Jesus did not rescind tithing or murder or adultery laws, but expanded on them (heart/motive vs externals).

[Turbo]

Originally posted by godrulz

He still commended tithing, but their motive and lack in other areas was rebuked. Jesus did not rescind tithing or murder or adultery laws, but expanded on them (heart/motive vs externals). (Actually, I think it would be more accurate to say He clarified them.)

He preached obedience to the whole Law, for He ministered to Israel. But the Body of Christ is not under the law. We are not required to tithe any more than we are require to circumcise or keep the sabbath.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by cravescheese

But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.

Pay tithes to yourself if you want.

You as a priest do not need to pay tithes to any other priests.

These full time pastors that preach tithing need to get a job and support themselves.

Nice twisting of Scripture. We pay tithes to God, not to priests and certainly not to ourselves (let's all rationalize selfless giving away and use God's $ to buy toys for ourselves?!).

Pastors that preach tithing and stewardship are trying to be faithful to Scripture as they understand it. They will be accountable for what they teach. Many leaders are bi-vocational. The Pauline principle is that leaders are worthy of support (do not muzzle the ox). He voluntarily gave up his right to support so no one would question his motives. Many cults do not pay their front line leaders (hierarchy is paid). This is not as effective as full-time equippers.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

I suppose, but it is based on years of study. These are merely my reasonable opinions that have support from other believers or teachers.

What do you not understand about these basic hermeneutical principle?

i) Interpret Scripture in light of the historical, contextual, grammatical, theological context of the original audience (revelation was given centuries ago, not for the 21 st century). We must find the one intended meaning for the original audience.

e.g. Corinthians was written to first century believers in Corinth. It is issue literature. What did it mean to them?

ii) Once we know the one correct interpretation of a passage, we find the eternal principles and make applications for believers of all generations. There may be more than one application.

Sozo, you still have not identified what religion or denomination you identify with. Perhaps you are the subjective standard of truth?

Again, you cannot water down the Law! Either tithing is a command of God that cannot go unpunished unless you follow it perfectly...

or

We are to give freely without compulsion as we see need.


I am a bible believing, spirit filled, child of the living God. I occasionally attend a Bible Baptist Church, and unfortunately spent 10 years in a Charismatic Assembly which I left 12 years ago. I managed an evangelical radio station, and have been teaching home bible studies for 15 years.

[godrulz]

Sorry about your negative charismatic experience. These groups include everything from conservative evangelicals to the lunatic fringe. I would not throw the baby out with the bath water, but search Scripture for an understanding of the person and work of the Holy Spirit.

We do not keep the Law in order to be saved. I am merely suggesting that the tithe is a reasonable guideline or starting point for our giving. People who subjectively give what they feel, tend to give a token amount hindering ministry. The stats on believer's level of giving show that most give very little to God (in contrast to the Mormon empire).

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

Nice twisting of Scripture. We pay tithes to God, not to priests and certainly not to ourselves (let's all rationalize selfless giving away and use God's $ to buy toys for ourselves?!).


How is that a twist. Are we not priests? Tithes were paid to support the priesthood. And I am not saying we should not be giving, but paying for these lazy CEO's of Church-corporations to have nice homes, cushy lifestyles and go on book signing tours, is not paying tithes to God. Don't kid yourself.

You want to righetously manage your money. Do what Jesus said. Sell all you have and give your money to the poor. Jesus didn't tell the man to give 10% of his money to a 501.3(c).

Originally posted by godrulz
Pastors that preach tithing and stewardship are trying to be faithful to Scripture as they understand it. They will be accountable for what they teach. Many leaders are bi-vocational. The Pauline principle is that leaders are worthy of support (do not muzzle the ox). He voluntarily gave up his right to support so no one would question his motives. Many cults do not pay their front line leaders (hierarchy is paid). This is not as effective as full-time equippers.

Leaders are worthy of support, but they shouldn't be a burden on their congregations if they have means to support themselves.

In other words, if they have a skill and can earn money to support themselves, they should. The church can take a collection to make up a difference if there is a valid reason for it.

I see many pastors that are fat, obviously gluttonous sloths who would be far better off earning a living instead of leeching off their hardworking brothers and sisters.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz


We do not keep the Law in order to be saved. I am merely suggesting that the tithe is a reasonable guideline or starting point for our giving. People who subjectively give what they feel, tend to give a token amount hindering ministry. The stats on believer's level of giving show that most give very little to God (in contrast to the Mormon empire).

But, you can't build doctrine around "reasonable guidelines"... ugh!

Those who do, are practicing Nicolaitanism... which is establishing control over people without any substantive support.

Teaching Christians to tithe has absolutely no biblical support.

[godrulz]

The legitimate support of godly, hard-working leaders should not be confused with the poor work ethic of a few. Our principles of giving should be fleshed out from Scripture and not our anecdotal observations of the hypocrites.

Unbelievers reject Christianity based on poor examples of Christians. They are still without excuse since the Word of God and person of Christ are the issues they must wrestle with.

Rejecting biblical principles is not excused by pointing fingers at those whom God will accurately judge.

I have no more patience for leeches than you do.

Early leaders gave themselves to prayer and the Word. Serving the flock full time is a legit occupation, but it must be done with integrity and accountability.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Unbelievers reject Christianity based on poor examples of Christians. If that is what you think, then I sincerely believe that you are in a cult.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

If that is what you think, then I sincerely believe that you are in a cult.

This is an arrogant, ignorant comment. Your credibility has taken another hit.

SOME unbelievers reject Christianity with the EXCUSE that there are hypocrites in the church. This is basic apologetics and easily refuted. The issue is the truth and one's relationship with/to Christ, not the imperfections of man.

What cult teaches that unbelievers reject Christ based on poor examples of Christians? NONE.

Do you always jump to conclusions and judge people's relationship with God based on misunderstanding statements out of context with no knowledge of their beliefs or heart?

I would not be surprised if you attend a narrow, legalistic church that thinks it is the only one with understanding. I have no basis for this other than your quirky comments.

[cravescheese]

It never fails to amaze me that the churches that push the law of tithing the most, almost always seem to be the nicer than God, don't judge anyone churches.

In other words, they throw out the law except the one that pays their salaries.

Makes sense actually, that way you can have the largest possible flock to fleece, since you have alienated no one...homos, adulterers, your all welcome, just ante up when the collection plate comes around.

Anyone else see a pattern amongst these kinds of churches?

[godrulz]

One should be open to the possibility that tithing is a principle (not a legalistic law) in the Word of God.

One should be careful of crass skepticism about the motives of churches that demonstrate excellent stewardship and are accountable with the money of God's people (channel it to ministry and advancing the kingdom). There may be abuse by some leaders, ministries, churches. God will judge them (and we can too if there is evidence).

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

One should be open to the possibility that tithing is a principle (not a legalistic law) in the Word of God.


One should be open to the possibility that tithing is a tradition of men (not required by God) which are condemned by the Word of God.

Originally posted by godrulz
One should be careful of crass skepticism about the motives of churches that demonstrate excellent stewardship and are accountable with the money of God's people (channel it to ministry and advancing the kingdom). There may be abuse by some leaders, ministries, churches. God will judge them (and we can to if there is evidence).

One should be careful of willful ignorance about the workings of the enemy wolves in sheeps clothing that God's Word proclaims will and have come amongst God's people. There is abuse by many leaders, ministries and churches. God will judge them and so must we. He that is spiritual judges all things.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

This is an arrogant, ignorant comment. Your credibility has taken another hit.

My credibility is with God, and you have ZERO to say about it.

As far as my comment appearing to be ignorant, it is indeed you that are ignorant as to why people reject Christ. YOU are not the example, Christ is! We testify concerning Him, and not ourselves. We are witnesses of who He is, what He has done, and the message concening Him!

SOME unbelievers reject Christianity with the EXCUSE that there are hypocrites in the church. Have you ever read Romans Chapter 2? It is not the example of the behavior of "Christians" that keeps the unbelievers opposed to God, but the fact that "Christians" teach that they are an example because of their behavior. That is what a cult does, and that is what YOU claimed.

Do you always jump to conclusions and judge people's relationship with God based on misunderstanding statements out of context with no knowledge of their beliefs or heart? It is a rather short step to conclude that anyone who teaches tithing as applicable today is either in a cult, or attending a church that is foreign to the message of Christ. It is not hard to spot a counterfeit when you are so familiar with the real thing.

[godrulz]

The majority of evangelical churches support tithing as a guideline. They do not tie it to salvation. The alternative is bingos and bake sales and garage sales, etc. to fund ministry.

Why the aversion to giving systematically and proportionately of our income? Greed? Selfishness? This is a principle established early for the people of God. There is no reason to think there are no principles (especially doing less under grace than the law) for NT believers. I would expect a billionaire should give more than 10% and a person on welfare no more? This does not have to be binding or a compulsion. If we encourage people to support a missionary, this does not mean we are under the Law.


Cheese: what church, religion, denomination do you identity with? Do they have any standards or guidelines on belief and practice? Let each decide based on the Word and their relationship with God.

I would rather give significantly as unto God than tip Him and blow the rest on my needs and wants.

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

The majority of evangelical churches support tithing as a guideline. They do not tie it to salvation. The alternative is bingos and bake sales and garage sales, etc. to fund ministry.



Broad is the road that leads to destruction.

Originally posted by godrulz


Why the aversion to giving systematically and proportionately of our income? Greed? Selfishness? This is a principle established early for the people of God. There is no reason to think there are no principles (especially doing less under grace than the law) for NT believers. I would expect a billionaire should give more than 10% and a person on welfare no more? This does not have to be binding or a compulsion. If we encourage people to support a missionary, this does not mean we are under the Law.



Why the non-aversion to it? How about simple mathmatics.

If every family gave 10% of their income then, it would take 9 families to give one pastors family the average income of the 9 families (assuming he was not to tithe himself, 10 if he was to tithe)

So now you have these mega churches and denoms. You have one head pastor and maybe 5 or 6 paid assistant pastors. They would only need 70 or so families to support them.

But they aren't satisfied with that. They want to hve big buildings with leases and mortgages. They need a christian bookstore to sell sugar coated precious moments cliche-theology plaques to hang in your bathroom. They need to always collect more and more. There is never enough. Talk about GREED and SELFISHNESS.

Where do you find authorization in the NT for the church to own any property? Where does it say they had buildings, schools or anything like what the multi-level-christians proclaim that God wants the church to have?

Open your eyes, most of these so called pastors are far more concerned with fleecing the sheep than feeding the sheep.

Originally posted by godrulz

Cheese: what church, religion, denomination do you identity with? Do they have any standards or guidelines on belief and practice? Let each decide based on the Word and their relationship with God.

I would rather give significantly as unto God than tip Him and blow the rest on my needs and wants.

I identify as a Christian, a follower of Christ not any man made "demon-ination" or religion. There is only one church.
I currently attend a church that is a Calvary chapel (Chuck Smith)affiliate, but trust me, I don't agree with all the ear-tickling sermons that they preach.

Now answer me:


How are you giving to God? Jesus didn't say to give money to the apostles and let them administer it, He said give it to the poor.

If you want to give, great, but don't be fooled you aren't giving it to God. You would be much wiser to give it to the poor directly, at least you would know they got it.

Of course then you might not get a tax deduction....

[Lovejoy]

"Ear-tickling" huh? 2Timothy 4:3 is one of my favorite verses, or at least one of the ones that I take most to heart. It is a very clear warning about what we have to deal with.

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

"Ear-tickling" huh? 2Timothy 4:3 is one of my favorite verses, or at least one of the ones that I take most to heart. It is a very clear warning about what we have to deal with.

I am not happy when the ear-tickling occurs, but I am not naive enough or willfully ignorant enough to believe or convince myself that it doesn't happen.

I like the parable of the 10 virgins. Half were unprepared and had no oil so they didn't get to come in to the wedding. I think that is well taught, but I think it is often neglected that they all fell asleep (became drowsy)

If the virgins represent churches (denoms) as many teach, I think it is interesting that they all fell asleep.

In other words, no denom/church is perfect so to think yours is, is self centered and foolish.

[Lovejoy]

An excellent perspective, and one that I hold as well. I attend a Foursquare church, because I respect the pastor, but my studies are my own.

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by Lovejoy

An excellent perspective, and one that I hold as well. I attend a Foursquare church, because I respect the pastor, but my studies are my own.

Right-on!

[Sozo]

Originally posted by cravescheese

Broad is the road that leads to destruction.



Why the non-aversion to it? How about simple mathmatics.

If every family gave 10% of their income then, it would take 9 families to give one pastors family the average income of the 9 families (assuming he was not to tithe himself, 10 if he was to tithe)

So now you have these mega churches and denoms. You have one head pastor and maybe 5 or 6 paid assistant pastors. They would only need 70 or so families to support them.

But they aren't satisfied with that. They want to hve big buildings with leases and mortgages. They need a christian bookstore to sell sugar coated precious moments cliche-theology plaques to hang in your bathroom. They need to always collect more and more. There is never enough. Talk about GREED and SELFISHNESS.

Where do you find authorization in the NT for the church to own any property? Where does it say they had buildings, schools or anything like what the multi-level-christians proclaim that God wants the church to have?

Open your eyes, most of these so called pastors are far more concerned with fleecing the sheep than feeding the sheep.



I identify as a Christian, a follower of Christ not any man made "demon-ination" or religion. There is only one church.
I currently attend a church that is a Calvary chapel (Chuck Smith)affiliate, but trust me, I don't agree with all the ear-tickling sermons that they preach.

Now answer me:


How are you giving to God? Jesus didn't say to give money to the apostles and let them administer it, He said give it to the poor.

If you want to give, great, but don't be fooled you aren't giving it to God. You would be much wiser to give it to the poor directly, at least you would know they got it.

Of course then you might not get a tax deduction....

POTD :first:

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by Sozo

POTD :first:

I am honored!

[godrulz]

Do you suggest that churches meet in a park? We would freeze here in Canada. Culturally, it is not unreasonable to meet in buildings and have a physical presence in the community. Scripture would not prohibit this. If it is not explicit, then neither are cars and airplanes. The temple or house churches were not imaginary. Different cultures or eras can have different expressions of the Church. Extravagant buildings are unnecessary and poor stewardship. Much of North American Christianity is off track, but this does not mean that all of it is.

Our church gives away much of what it takes in. It gives to missions, colleges, the poor, etc. There is more accountability and efficiency for a local church to administer funds (confidential needs, etc.) than individuals randomly giving with no wisdom or accountability (individuals can give, but larger projects like building third world churches often require pooling of funds, ETC.).

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Do you suggest that churches meet in a park? We would freeze here in Canada. Culturally, it is not unreasonable to meet in buildings and have a physical presence in the community. Scripture would not prohibit this. If it is not explicit, then neither are cars and airplanes. The temple or house churches were not imaginary. Different cultures or eras can have different expressions of the Church. Extravagant buildings are unnecessary and poor stewardship. Much of North American Christianity is off track, but this does not mean that all of it is.

Our church gives away much of what it takes in. It gives to missions, colleges, the poor, etc. There is more accountability and efficiency for a local church to administer funds (confidential needs, etc.) than individuals randomly giving with no wisdom or accountability (individuals can give, but larger projects like building third world churches often require pooling of funds, ETC.).

In other words... we should not only tithe, but we should tithe to YOUR church

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

Do you suggest that churches meet in a park? We would freeze here in Canada. Culturally, it is not unreasonable to meet in buildings and have a physical presence in the community. Scripture would not prohibit this. If it is not explicit, then neither are cars and airplanes. The temple or house churches were not imaginary. Different cultures or eras can have different expressions of the Church. Extravagant buildings are unnecessary and poor stewardship. Much of North American Christianity is off track, but this does not mean that all of it is.


I suggested nothing of the sort. Culturally, as a Christian your "culture" is not determined by where you live or in what era, but by what you believe. Christian culture should be based on the Word of God. Meeting in a public building such as Solomon's Portico in the Temple is far different than owning a building. Since we have no temple, other public buildings seem appropriate, libraries etc.

Meeting in private houses or inns (rented spaces?) seems to be in line with the scripture. You can have a physical presence in the community without creating "Church-corporations" that own property and continually have fundraisers for building projects. If you outgrow a private house or rentable spaces then plant a new church instead of creating 19,000 member mega churches where the pastor cannot possibly know his sheep and the sheep know their pastor.

Please give me a scriptural example of the church becoming a corporate entity so it could purchase property.

Originally posted by godrulz

Our church gives away much of what it takes in. It gives to missions, colleges, the poor, etc. There is more accountability and efficiency for a local church to administer funds (confidential needs, etc.) than individuals randomly giving with no wisdom or accountability (individuals can give, but larger projects like building third world churches often require pooling of funds, ETC.).

Who says there is more accountability? Are you saying you are not accountable to yourself? Your reasoning is circular. Lets raise money to build properties for third world churches so they can raise money for other building projects. Where does this end?

The primary example of the NT is house churches. It doesn't take much "pooling of funds" to buy some bibles and send them to a Christian convert in a poor country so he can start a church in his home. You seem to be obsessed with having buildings.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

In other words... we should not only tithe, but we should tithe to YOUR church


Are you serious? Support the local church you are fed at. I was merely giving a positive example of the church.

Maybe some of you should search the Scriptures to develop a more cogent ecclesiology. The church is God's primary instrument in the world. We are part of the Body of Christ with local expressions. It is the family and army of God.

Start here: "...Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..." Eph. 5:25

I would be slower to slander and judge the church and its leaders in a stereotypical way. It the the Lord of the Church who accurately commends and rebukes it (Revelation 2 and 3= local churches were commended and rebuked by the Head and Cornerstone).

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

Are you serious? Support the local church you are fed at. I was merely giving a positive example of the church.

Maybe some of you should search the Scriptures to develop a more cogent ecclesiology. The church is God's primary instrument in the world. We are part of the Body of Christ with local expressions. It is the family and army of God.

Start here: "...Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..." Eph. 5:25

I would be slower to slander and judge the church and its leaders in a stereotypical way. It the the Lord of the Church who accurately commends and rebukes it (Revelation 2 and 3= local churches were commended and rebuked by the Head and Cornerstone).

Were they not rebuked for leaving their first love?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Are you serious? Support the local church you are fed at. I was merely giving a positive example of the church.

Maybe some of you should search the Scriptures to develop a more cogent ecclesiology. The church is God's primary instrument in the world. We are part of the Body of Christ with local expressions. It is the family and army of God.

Start here: "...Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..." Eph. 5:25

I would be slower to slander and judge the church and its leaders in a stereotypical way. It the the Lord of the Church who accurately commends and rebukes it (Revelation 2 and 3= local churches were commended and rebuked by the Head and Cornerstone).



YOU are the one who criticized the majority of the churches in America for not operating in the same fashion as your own.

In any case, the church is not a building, or an organization. It is people.

You have lost your argument in support of tithing, and this discussion has become a pointless devotion to organized religion, and not to Christ.

[godrulz]

Having buildings is one model of meeting. I started a church that met in schools, office buildings, etc. This would not have precluded eventual land or building purchase. This does not have to become a corporate empire sucking the funds out of people.

Is it wrong for believers to OWN homes or is it more spiritual to rent? Perhaps both are valid? Get a grip.

Ownership leads to mortgage burning which leads to NO payments or rent. Ultimately this is an appreciating asset that results in better stewardship. In our culture, a physical presence in the community can be a lighthouse and place of hope. Leaving buildings for nominal churches gives them credibility in our culture and raises cultic suspicion for the little huddles that are underground. Home cell groups are great, but it is hard to fit a large church in a home. There is a place for large celebration and small cells. Mega-churches can have mega-impact.

It is simplistic and short sighted to say renting is the only valid model. Your wooden literalism would not allow us to live in the 21st century. Apply principles since not every modern contingency is dealt with in Scripture.

The above is reasonable and not a pathological obsession with buildings. Your knowledge of ecclesiology and church history is lacking.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

YOU are the one who criticized the majority of the churches in America for not operating in the same fashion as your own.

In any case, the church is not a building, or an organization. It is people.

You have lost your argument in support of tithing, and this discussion has become a pointless devotion to organized religion, and not to Christ.

The church is people that may or may not meet in buildings. There is a distinction between the church universal and the local church (both are valid). Thousands of churches operate as my church does (accountability, efficiency, stewardship, glorifying to God, etc.). Your focus is on the minority or nominal churches that are not alive.

Tithing can flow out of devotion to Christ or bondage to organized religion. It is both/and, not either/or. This is similar to what day of worship we choose (Pauline argument). If someone gives 10% and another 30% and another 1%...it is between them and God. All days of the week are as unto God (not just Sunday or Sabbath). Likewise, all giving may be either as unto God or in a merely religious manner.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by cravescheese

Were they not rebuked for leaving their first love?

Only 1/7 churches had that indictment. Each local church has different strengths or weaknesses. What is your point? He did not negate the validity of the ministry of the Church. He desired to exhort and edify believers to greater Christlikeness.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

If someone gives 10% and another 30% and another 1%...it is between them and God. All days of the week are as unto God (not just Sunday or Sabbath). Likewise, all giving may be either as unto God or in a merely religious manner.

YOU ARE MAKING THIS UP IN YOUR OWN MIND!!!!



Are you demon possessed? Becuase no one can be as completely dense as you are.

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

Having buildings is one model of meeting. I started a church that met in schools, office buildings, etc. This would not have precluded eventual land or building purchase. This does not have to become a corporate empire sucking the funds out of people.


Yes it is one model. It is not a model we have an example of. We do have examples of small home fellowhips and churches meeting in public places where unbelievers congregate.

Here would be a good place to meet. Meet at your local Jehovah's witness kingdom hall. That way you could witness to and convert them. If they kick you out, oh well. Or meet at a synagogue, buddhist temple, mormon temple or hindu ashram.

Just as the early church would go to the synagogues as a witness to the jews. Makes sense...thats where the unbelievers are!

When asked why he robbed banks a famous bankrobber said "Thats where the money is"

Once you have your own building "sanctuary" you lose out on the opportunity to engage the unbelievers. Hindus usually aren't going to come to your church. If you go to their places they will have to deal with you.

Originally posted by godrulz
Is it wrong for believers to OWN homes or is it more spiritual to rent? Perhaps both are valid? Get a grip.


Please don't attribute words to me. Where did I say any such thing? You grip is the one that seems loose.

Originally posted by godrulz

Ownership leads to mortgage burning which leads to NO payments or rent. Ultimately this is an appreciating asset that results in better stewardship. In our culture, a physical presence in the community can be a lighthouse and place of hope. Leaving buildings for nominal churches gives them credibility in our culture and raises cultic suspicion for the little huddles that are underground. Home cell groups are great, but it is hard to fit a large church in a home. There is a place for large celebration and small cells. Mega-churches can have mega-impact.


Where does it say the church is to have assets? Does store up your treasure in heaven ring a bell to you? You can most easily have a physical presence in the community by going out into the community, not hiding in comfy pews in a sanctuary. Why does a church have to or want to become large? Once you get big how can the pastor and the members really get to know eachother and have true fellowship? Mega churches tend to be places where mega amounts of carnal christians can hide from their responsibility to go out into the world and be salt and light. It is easier to be lost in a large crowd than a small one.

Originally posted by godrulz
It is simplistic and short sighted to say renting is the only valid model. Your wooden literalism would not allow us to live in the 21st century. Apply principles since not every modern contingency is dealt with in Scripture.

The above is reasonable and not a pathological obsession with buildings. Your knowledge of ecclesiology and church history is lacking.


I didn't say renting is the only valid model. You are again attributing words to me that I did not say. Wooden literalism or following God's Holy Word? Let's see, back in the NT early church days..did they have concepts of public and private property? YES. Did they have concepts of renting spaces like at inns? YES Did they have private homes? YES.

What modern contingency relative to this discussion does the bible not deal with?

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

Only 1/7 churches had that indictment. Each local church has different strengths or weaknesses. What is your point? He did not negate the validity of the ministry of the Church. He desired to exhort and edify believers to greater Christlikeness.

Maybe leaving their first love was an indictment of leaving their love for spreading the Gospel to the world by hiding in a sanctuary in a mega church.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by cravescheese

Here would be a good place to meet. Meet at your local Jehovah's witness kingdom hall. That way you could witness to and convert them. If they kick you out, oh well. Or meet at a synagogue, buddhist temple, mormon temple or hindu ashram.

We use to have our bible study in the local tavern. We would put some tables together, pull out our bibles, and order a couple of pitchers and some appetizers!

Is it okay with you, godrulz, if we "tithe" to the local pub?

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by Sozo

We use to have our bible study in the local tavern. We would put some tables together, pull out our bibles, and order a couple of pitchers and some appetizers!

Is it okay with you, godrulz, if we "tithe" to the local pub?

Assuming you are not being facetious, think of what a witness that would be.

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by Sozo

YOU are the one who criticized the majority of the churches in America for not operating in the same fashion as your own.

In any case, the church is not a building, or an organization. It is people.



I think that is the real problem, people are all about buildings and top-down hierarchies. This goes back at least to the tower of Babel. It seems to be a big part of the sin nature.

Originally posted by Sozo
You have lost your argument in support of tithing, and this discussion has become a pointless devotion to organized religion, and not to Christ.

You have hit the nail on the head.

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

Tithing can flow out of devotion to Christ or bondage to organized religion. It is both/and, not either/or. This is similar to what day of worship we choose (Pauline argument). If someone gives 10% and another 30% and another 1%...it is between them and God. All days of the week are as unto God (not just Sunday or Sabbath). Likewise, all giving may be either as unto God or in a merely religious manner.

Then why call it tithing? Doesn't tithing literally mean a tithe or a tenth?

Why not call it give all, some, or none? Why misuse the OT laws regarding giving a tenth to support the priesthood to mean give all some or none to support some building project?

Why not admit that the laws of tithing a tenth of your increase (we can discuss if wages that many families can barely survive on are "increase" separately) do not apply to the church?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by cravescheese

Assuming you are not being facetious, think of what a witness that would be.

I was being honest!

I was a DJ in the night-club scene throughout the "Disco" era, and after I became a Christian it was the best place to find people whom I knew and share what Christ has done for them.

[Brent2]

If you have a problem paying tithes on a large sum of money, you should pray the sum of money would become a smaller amount.....

Brent

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Brent2

If you have a problem paying tithes on a large sum of money, you should pray the sum of money would become a smaller amount.....

Brent

It's funny what stupid things some people will say, uh Brent?

[elected4ever]

Brent2If you have a problem paying tithes on a large sum of money, you should pray the sum of money would become a smaller amount.....

efe ---------:shocked: :noid: :kookoo: :darwinsm: :bang: :vomit:

Sozo

It's funny what stupid things some people will say, uh Brent?

e4e -----:up: :box: :sozo2:

[Brent2]

Hey.... I'm just trying to help out. (hehehehe)

Brent

[elected4ever]

Brent2Hey.... I'm just trying to help out.

e4e ---- It would help if you made sense. Its like saying the poor shall inherit the earth so quit you job. :freak:

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by Sozo

I was being honest!

I was a DJ in the night-club scene throughout the "Disco" era, and after I became a Christian it was the best place to find people whom I knew and share what Christ has done for them.

I apologize for posting something that appeared to question your honesty. I don't doubt your honesty. When I first read your post I thought you said, what if we met in a tavern, not that we did meet in one. My mistake.

BTW, I think that is one of the coolest things I have heard in a while.

I am tired of Ivory Tower Christianity. Jesus went to the sinners not the saved. Jesus would have a bible study anywhere and everywhere.

The Son of God owned no property and had no where to lay His head.

Yet His ministry was the most effective. No buildings, or fundraisers required. I don't know of Jesus ever taking a collection.

Since this was about tithing, we should discuss the tithe-feast. You never hear the tithe-preachers talk about that.

Enyart is correct to bring it up.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

YOU ARE MAKING THIS UP IN YOUR OWN MIND!!!!



Are you demon possessed? Becuase no one can be as completely dense as you are.

Sorry if I am not clear. The Sabbath question was addressed by Paul to those who were bickering over the old and new covenant. Some issues must be based on principles, since Scripture does not give prescriptions for every issue. Within God's moral law is an area of freedom and conscience on some issues (weaker, stronger brother, etc.).

Do you not think it slanderous (a sin) to say someone is cultic and demon possessed based on a few personal thoughts? Do you think the Spirit is impressed that you call Him an evil spirit indwelling a child of God?

sozo lacks credibility and integrity....this is not slanderous...

[godrulz]

Originally posted by cravescheese

Yes it is one model. It is not a model we have an example of. We do have examples of small home fellowhips and churches meeting in public places where unbelievers congregate.

Here would be a good place to meet. Meet at your local Jehovah's witness kingdom hall. That way you could witness to and convert them. If they kick you out, oh well. Or meet at a synagogue, buddhist temple, mormon temple or hindu ashram.

Just as the early church would go to the synagogues as a witness to the jews. Makes sense...thats where the unbelievers are!

When asked why he robbed banks a famous bankrobber said "Thats where the money is"

Once you have your own building "sanctuary" you lose out on the opportunity to engage the unbelievers. Hindus usually aren't going to come to your church. If you go to their places they will have to deal with you.



Please don't attribute words to me. Where did I say any such thing? You grip is the one that seems loose.



Where does it say the church is to have assets? Does store up your treasure in heaven ring a bell to you? You can most easily have a physical presence in the community by going out into the community, not hiding in comfy pews in a sanctuary. Why does a church have to or want to become large? Once you get big how can the pastor and the members really get to know eachother and have true fellowship? Mega churches tend to be places where mega amounts of carnal christians can hide from their responsibility to go out into the world and be salt and light. It is easier to be lost in a large crowd than a small one.




I didn't say renting is the only valid model. You are again attributing words to me that I did not say. Wooden literalism or following God's Holy Word? Let's see, back in the NT early church days..did they have concepts of public and private property? YES. Did they have concepts of renting spaces like at inns? YES Did they have private homes? YES.

What modern contingency relative to this discussion does the bible not deal with?

Who said unbelievers are supposed to come to church for an evangelistic message?

The church is a gathering for worship, instruction (edification/equipping), fellowship, equipping for evangelism, and service. We are to GO to the world and form relationships with people in our community (GOspel; Great Commission= Go ye). If an unbeliever comes to church, so be it. The church is primarily the family and army of God, not an evangelistic center (secondary, alternate model of ministry for some services).

[godrulz]

Originally posted by cravescheese

Maybe leaving their first love was an indictment of leaving their love for spreading the Gospel to the world by hiding in a sanctuary in a mega church.

Nice eisegesis (reading meaning into text that is not primary interpretation based on context, etc.). Try exegeting the real meaning and situation before making your applications (what did it mean to them (interpret)? What does it mean to us (apply)?)

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Do you not think it slanderous (a sin) to say someone is cultic and demon possessed based on a few personal thoughts?

Nope... and neither did Jesus or Paul.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

We use to have our bible study in the local tavern. We would put some tables together, pull out our bibles, and order a couple of pitchers and some appetizers!

Is it okay with you, godrulz, if we "tithe" to the local pub?

I commend you for being where the people are. This is 'church'. It would lack wisdom and integrity to tithe to the pub, since funds could be used to advance sin (strippers, drunkeness, gambling, etc.). The Malachi principle could have application where we give our $. There is no Old or New Testament practice for giving to ungodly institutions. I will assume you are being sarcastic.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by cravescheese

Then why call it tithing? Doesn't tithing literally mean a tithe or a tenth?

Why not call it give all, some, or none? Why misuse the OT laws regarding giving a tenth to support the priesthood to mean give all some or none to support some building project?

Why not admit that the laws of tithing a tenth of your increase (we can discuss if wages that many families can barely survive on are "increase" separately) do not apply to the church?

I would rather be faithful, obedient and generous than robbing God of a reasonable fruit of my time and labors. If poor people tithe, God will be faithful to meet their needs. This is not giving to get, but submitting to His Lordship and trusting the providential Father-heart.

OK, let's call it a tithe...a reasonable starting point for NT giving. I give net vs gross income...it would be legalistic to argue which is more accurate.

cf. some people feel the Bible condemns drinking alcohol...for them, it may be a sin to drink, while others might have a clear conscience. I believe the Bible teaches moderation and did not forbid alcohol. However, in our culture, other biblical principles could be used for abstinence. This would be a principle of wisdom.

The principle of tithing could be similar. It may not be obvious that NT believers should tithe (or drink or abstain), but you cannot condemn me for using it as a guideline (not explicitly rescinded in the NT) with the motive to obey, worship, love, please God and further the Kingdom.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

Nope... and neither did Jesus or Paul.

You have neither the wisdom, credibility, authority of Jesus nor Paul. You know a fraction of who I am, yet you make sweeping judgments on things you misunderstand:doh:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

You have neither the wisdom, credibility, authority of Jesus or Paul. You know a fraction of who I am, yet you make sweeping judgments on things you misunderstand:doh:

Am I "misunderstanding" that you believe and teach that Christians should tithe?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

You have neither the wisdom, credibility, authority of Jesus nor Paul. You know a fraction of who I am, yet you make sweeping judgments on things you misunderstand:doh:

btw... are you judging me as not having wisdom, credibility, or authority?

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

Who said unbelievers are supposed to come to church for an evangelistic message?

The church is a gathering for worship, instruction (edification/equipping), fellowship, equipping for evangelism, and service. We are to GO to the world and form relationships with people in our community (GOspel; Great Commission= Go ye). If an unbeliever comes to church, so be it. The church is primarily the family and army of God, not an evangelistic center (secondary, alternate model of ministry for some services).

Interesting...you didn't deal with any of my points and then proceed to try and claim that I said "unbelievers are supposed to come to church for an evangelistic message".

We were talking about the church needing property. Right? The church building as you are discussing it can be a place to have evangelical outreaches. Or are you saying that it can't.

Anyway you are still missing the mark. The church IS NOT THE BUILDING.

We believers are the church. We can meet anywhere at anytime.

The church primarily did four activities according to the book of acts. Fellowship, Studying the Apostles teaching, Breaking of Bread, and Prayer. And they did this in eachothers homes.
Not in mega churches where they barely knew eachother and had phonyship, but at eachothers house where they could really know eachother and have true fellowship.

How much true fellowship happens in large churches? Not much, which is why even the mega-churches will encourage their members to join home fellowships or mini-churches. It is because it is obvious that if you only attend the services at the church building you can just be a face in the crowd where no one really knows who you are.

Sure, you turn around and shake hands and smile when the preacher asks you to, but no one really knows eachother. Hanging out with the brethren and getting to know eachother (fellowship), eating meals together at eachothers houses (breaking bread), studying the Word together (the Apostles teachings) and praying together is how Christian churches should really conduct themselves.

Your list "worship, instruction (edification/equipping), fellowship, equipping for evangelism, and service" is a start but leaves out breaking bread, studying the word together as opposed to being instructed in a one way top-down, sermonistic style and arguably most importantly praying together. I would also question how true the fellowship is especially if it is only one or twice a week for a one hour or so service.

I see it at large churches frequently. The have some elders who will pray with you after the service if you "need prayer" Like who doesn't need prayer? The problem is that praying with someone who doesn't know you is not as effective as praying with someone who you are in true fellowship with. It is also a barrier to many people because they have to go up to the front of the church after the service and may be shy. They might need prayer for something they aren't comfortable talking to a mere acquaintance about.

Bottom line:

Mega churches are essentially big productions where little true fellowship takes place, prayers are likely to be shallow and the breaking of bread consists of a broken piece of matzoh and a thimble of grape juice. Believers can easily be just a face in the crowd and never grow spiritually, but fall away when the world attacks, which it always does.

Do you honestly think that is what the church is supposed to be?

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz
I would rather be faithful, obedient and generous than robbing God of a reasonable fruit of my time and labors. If poor people tithe, God will be faithful to meet their needs. This is not giving to get, but submitting to His Lordship and trusting the providential Father-heart.



Robbing God? That is ludicrous. According to Jesus, you cannot rob from a strong man let alone God unless you bind him first. It is impossible to steal from God. Submitting to God means doing His will. How is following a law that was intended to support a priest class that no longer exists doing His will?

The veil was torn in two from top to bottom.

Their is no priest class anymore. All believers are priests in a royal priesthood. If you were to claim that tithing was applicable then pay it to the priests. In other words, tithe to yourself.


Originally posted by godrulz
OK, let's call it a tithe...a reasonable starting point for NT giving. I give net vs gross income...it would be legalistic to argue which is more accurate.



It is legalistic to require anyone to tithe at all. Tithing was a LAW to support a priest class that was abolished.

Originally posted by godrulz
cf. some people feel the Bible condemns drinking alcohol...for them, it may be a sin to drink, while others might have a clear conscience. I believe the Bible teaches moderation and did not forbid alcohol. However, in our culture, other biblical principles could be used for abstinence. This would be a principle of wisdom.



I could give a rip about what some people feel. What does the Word say? Do not lean on your own understanding.


Originally posted by godrulz
The principle of tithing could be similar. It may not be obvious that NT believers should tithe (or drink or abstain), but you cannot condemn me for using it as a guideline (not explicitly rescinded in the NT) with the motive to obey, worship, love, please God and further the Kingdom.

Tithing is not a principle. It was a law that was very specific and is no longer applicable. It was rescinded in the NT when all believers became priests. Are you saying that the priests in the OT would tithe? If so to whom? Likewise who are we NT priests to tithe to? Why do you pick just this law to judaize about? Why not the laws regarding mixing threads in fabric? Do you avoid cotton/poly blends?

It sounds to me that you are a materialistic money focused person who has not really studied the bible yourself but repeats whatever the johnny pulpit you listen to spews forth in a sermon.

[c.moore]

Originally posted by godrulz

We must interpret Malachi in context for the correct understanding. What did it mean to the original hearers? Check a commentary like Keil-Delitzsch.

If we apply it to the church, it would be by way of application and principle only. What does it mean to us (is there an application for all believers?) This is reasonable, but not the primary interpretation/application.

If the law required 10% +, then why is everyone trying to give less under grace? It seems to me we would at least give what the law required since we have the abundance and grace of Christ in our lives i.e. perhaps we should exceed what the law required. I think there is a reflection on the heart if everyone is trying to give the bare minimum to God. It is not the amount as much as the motive and heart that God values.

For some people this is a process to give 10%, and they give maybe 5% now , but everytime they hear about them being disobedient in giving 10% a great wrath of condemnation will fall on them and this will not encourage them to give anything any more.

My wife has a problem with this now and she say she can give because she don`t give in faith or love and is not cheerful about it at this time so what should she do??

Should she give out of legalism, and stress??

[c.moore]

Originally posted by godrulz

Sorry about your negative charismatic experience. These groups include everything from conservative evangelicals to the lunatic fringe. I would not throw the baby out with the bath water, but search Scripture for an understanding of the person and work of the Holy Spirit.

We do not keep the Law in order to be saved. I am merely suggesting that the tithe is a reasonable guideline or starting point for our giving. People who subjectively give what they feel, tend to give a token amount hindering ministry. The stats on believer's level of giving show that most give very little to God (in contrast to the Mormon empire).

This is what I mean , we would like to give but when you are giving a large sum like me 30.000 because of my father will to me, and the church demands that 10% it is hard to do, specially when you know your church waste money and get themselves in big depth because of lack of wisdom.

What should I do here so I can still be bless??

What about the favor of the Lord is that cancelled out also because of the tithes, and what about God Mercy is that also of no effects???:confused:

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Sozo

I was being honest!

I was a DJ in the night-club scene throughout the "Disco" era, and after I became a Christian it was the best place to find people whom I knew and share what Christ has done for them.

I didn`t know you were a DJ also praise the Lord.

You need to read my testamony on my Revival disco for christians and sinners.
You can also watch me spin online on the web site.

freak was many times our guess and speaker, and even have him live casting out demons , and binding , and loosing.

www.revivaldisco.com

[c.moore]

My church preaches if a person don`t pay tithes they are a thief and anyone who if caught being a leader or belong to the gospel team who doesn`t pay tithes is not allowed to be in any office or take part in leadership in any way in our church and some don`t even talk to a person who don`t pay tithes or sit at the same table with a tothes thief.

This is what tithes do in some church and mine.

What do you think about this????

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by c.moore

This is what I mean , we would like to give but when you are giving a large sum like me 30.000 because of my father will to me, and the church demands that 10% it is hard to do, specially when you know your church waste money and get themselves in big depth because of lack of wisdom.

What should I do here so I can still be bless??

What about the favor of the Lord is that cancelled out also because of the tithes, and what about God Mercy is that also of no effects???:confused:


The money may be a blessing in itself. You can't buy mercy, it is a free gift of God.

I say don't give the church anything, you don't have to. The Lord knows your heart. If you feel you have more than enough to support your family and are out of debt, have savings for an emergency (rainy day), have the kids college fund stocked and have paid off your car, house etc then maybe you have been working really hard and are a good steward and deserve a vacation?

Maybe you were blessed with that money so you could take a cruise around the world? Who knows.

What about your family? A husband takes care of not just his own wife and kids but his whole household. Maybe you have relatives that are struggling? An aunt or uncle who needs some car repairs? A niece or nephew working their way through colllege? Bless them before you bless complete strangers through your church or some para-church ministry.

Pray about it, but don't give it to anyone out of obligation.

If you have yourself and your whole household covered, than I would think about whether God might just want you to enjoy yourself, as in the tithe feast example.

If that doesn't seem right to you, you can invest it and grow the money so you can have more ability to help needy people.

If you want to give some away, I think starting with widows and orphans is a good idea, certainly you will be blessed if you help needy widows and orphans.

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by c.moore

My church preaches if a person don`t pay tithes they are a thief and anyone who if caught being a leader or belong to the gospel team who doesn`t pay tithes is not allowed to be in any office or take part in leadership in any way in our church and some don`t even talk to a person who don`t pay tithes or sit at the same table with a tothes thief.

This is what tithes do in some church and mine.

What do you think about this????

Jesus said that the love of money is the root of all sorts of evil.

It sounds to me like these people love money and are causing all sorts of evil by falsely accusing people of the invented sin of stealing tithes from God.

I would find another church or start my own.

[Brent2]

elected4ever,
Do you not have any sense of humor?

It was supposed to be a joke.


Brent

[elected4ever]

c.moore My church preaches if a person don`t pay tithes they are a thief and anyone who if caught being a leader or belong to the gospel team who doesn`t pay tithes is not allowed to be in any office or take part in leaders
hip in any way in our church and some don`t even talk to a person who don`t pay tithes or sit at the same table with a tithes thief.

This is what tithes do in some church and mine.

What do you think about this????


e4e ---------- The thief is in the pulpit and those in leadership are facilitators of the theft. It is control by false guilt. You clam to have demons cast out in your church and you cant even discern a thief. Sounds to me like Freak can't discern demons ether. Nothing to brag about in your church.:nono: :kookoo:

Brent2 Do you not have any sense of humor?

It was supposed to be a joke.

e4e ------- I am happy that you were not serious. It was just a poor joke as I have heard that same message from pulpits in a serious fashion as attested to by C-Moore.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by cravescheese

Interesting...you didn't deal with any of my points and then proceed to try and claim that I said "unbelievers are supposed to come to church for an evangelistic message".

We were talking about the church needing property. Right? The church building as you are discussing it can be a place to have evangelical outreaches. Or are you saying that it can't.

Anyway you are still missing the mark. The church IS NOT THE BUILDING.

We believers are the church. We can meet anywhere at anytime.

The church primarily did four activities according to the book of acts. Fellowship, Studying the Apostles teaching, Breaking of Bread, and Prayer. And they did this in eachothers homes.
Not in mega churches where they barely knew eachother and had phonyship, but at eachothers house where they could really know eachother and have true fellowship.

How much true fellowship happens in large churches? Not much, which is why even the mega-churches will encourage their members to join home fellowships or mini-churches. It is because it is obvious that if you only attend the services at the church building you can just be a face in the crowd where no one really knows who you are.

Sure, you turn around and shake hands and smile when the preacher asks you to, but no one really knows eachother. Hanging out with the brethren and getting to know eachother (fellowship), eating meals together at eachothers houses (breaking bread), studying the Word together (the Apostles teachings) and praying together is how Christian churches should really conduct themselves.

Your list "worship, instruction (edification/equipping), fellowship, equipping for evangelism, and service" is a start but leaves out breaking bread, studying the word together as opposed to being instructed in a one way top-down, sermonistic style and arguably most importantly praying together. I would also question how true the fellowship is especially if it is only one or twice a week for a one hour or so service.

I see it at large churches frequently. The have some elders who will pray with you after the service if you "need prayer" Like who doesn't need prayer? The problem is that praying with someone who doesn't know you is not as effective as praying with someone who you are in true fellowship with. It is also a barrier to many people because they have to go up to the front of the church after the service and may be shy. They might need prayer for something they aren't comfortable talking to a mere acquaintance about.

Bottom line:

Mega churches are essentially big productions where little true fellowship takes place, prayers are likely to be shallow and the breaking of bread consists of a broken piece of matzoh and a thimble of grape juice. Believers can easily be just a face in the crowd and never grow spiritually, but fall away when the world attacks, which it always does.

Do you honestly think that is what the church is supposed to be?

I concur with much of your assessment and share the same concerns. We need to rethink how we do church. I just do not think we need to swing the pendulum to another extreme and think it more spiritual to not have buildings, etc. This is not the root problem. It is a heart and leadership issue. Let us respond to the principles of the Word and not react against the foibles of the modern church.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by c.moore

For some people this is a process to give 10%, and they give maybe 5% now , but everytime they hear about them being disobedient in giving 10% a great wrath of condemnation will fall on them and this will not encourage them to give anything any more.

My wife has a problem with this now and she say she can give because she don`t give in faith or love and is not cheerful about it at this time so what should she do??

Should she give out of legalism, and stress??

I appreciate your concerns. We should not give out of duty, fear, legalism, coercion, condemnation, guilt, etc.

We should try to establish a biblical understanding of giving.

I believe tithing is a principle applicable for all believers. I am taking flack for that here. Maybe they should read my profs doctoral thesis on whether tithing is still valid in the NT.

From a pastoral perspective, I would hear the heart and spirit of the Malachi passage. In a materialistic culture, it is liberating to be able to give out of our abundance. God does not need our tithe. To obey is better than sacrifice. Like much of the Christian life, obedience precedes feelings. I would obey Scripture and the Spirit (if you are being convicted from the Word, not from man, about this area) whether I felt great about it or had mixed motives.

There are many anecdotal stories of believers who have started giving systematically and proportionately as unto God. There is blessing for obedience. I cannot afford to give what I do. In my heart, I know it is the right thing for me. It is a tangible way to jettison cheapness and selfishness in my life with the desire to invest in the Kingdom and see it advanced. Where your treasure is, there your heart will be.

Many believers are in bondage to money and live materialistically. We can learn from the rich young ruler who lost salvation since money was his god. Practically, tithing meets needs and loosens the grip of mammon on our lives.

The naysayers arguments do not consider all issues, but too quickly dismiss tithing outright.

I do not condemn others who do not see light in the same way I do. Nor should they condemn me for using it as a guideline. God knows my heart and motives, and I know what He has shown me from the Word. I would be responsible for not living up to the light I have.

[billwald]

There was no "Christian" real estate until Constantine made Christianity the official religion around 300 AD. At that time the Church didn't build churches, they stole pagan temples.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by c.moore

This is what I mean , we would like to give but when you are giving a large sum like me 30.000 because of my father will to me, and the church demands that 10% it is hard to do, specially when you know your church waste money and get themselves in big depth because of lack of wisdom.

What should I do here so I can still be bless??

What about the favor of the Lord is that cancelled out also because of the tithes, and what about God Mercy is that also of no effects???:confused:

God is a God of love and does not hold a club to us. An inheritance is not earned income any more than a birthday gift of cash is. You do not give to get or to be blessed. I believe you have the freedom to tithe the lump sum or not. I would be inclined to give some of it to a ministry like Gospel for Asia where lives will be transformed forever. I would not feel obligated to 'tithe' on this. If you do give a big amount, I am sure this would please God and be rewarded in eternity. If you do not, I do not think you would be condemned (unless the Spirit is clearly saying to do this).

I also do not tithe on income tax returns like some people do. An income tax refund is an overpayment, not earned income.

See, I am not as legalistic as some think. Perhaps the spirit of the law is more important than the letter of the law folks? C.Moore...try not to approach this issue as a legalism, but as an opportunity to give what you want (if anything). It seems you will have hundreds of thousands left, so why not be generous with a variety of ministries (does not have to just be your local church if they are poor stewards).

My daughter is getting a legal settlement. I feel we should give some for ministry, but do not feel compelled to 'tithe' it.

Principles, wisdom, love; not prescription, legalisms, duty.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by c.moore

My church preaches if a person don`t pay tithes they are a thief and anyone who if caught being a leader or belong to the gospel team who doesn`t pay tithes is not allowed to be in any office or take part in leadership in any way in our church and some don`t even talk to a person who don`t pay tithes or sit at the same table with a tothes thief.

This is what tithes do in some church and mine.

What do you think about this????

Could be perceived as heavy-handed, cultish, authoritarian.

When I was a pastor, I taught the principle of tithing along with stewardship in general. I left it to the Spirit to convict or convince the people of any personal application.

It is not necessarily wrong to require church attendance, faithful giving, water baptism, etc. for people in leadership as an example and commitment. If it is done in a condemnatory, coercive way...this may be crossing the line.

[cravescheese]

Originally posted by godrulz

I concur with much of your assessment and share the same concerns. We need to rethink how we do church. I just do not think we need to swing the pendulum to another extreme and think it more spiritual to not have buildings, etc. This is not the root problem. It is a heart and leadership issue. Let us respond to the principles of the Word and not react against the foibles of the modern church.

We don't need to swing the pendulum or whatever term you want to use to continue to allow this "experimental christianity". We don't need to rethink anything. We just need to follow the guidebook.

Meet with other believers at your homes, inns and public places.

Pray, Fellowship, Break Bread and study the Word of God in groups that are intimate enough so that you can actually get to really know eachother, instead of superficial nonsense.

Spread the gospel here and in other countries by starting more next to zero-overhead home churches instead of big building projects that require huge amounts of funds to be raised before anyone ever hears the word of God.

Of course you are not going to hear this from Johnny Pulpit anytime soon. They won't admit it, but they love being the "head pastor" at the top of a top-down hierarchy where they are essentially the CEO of a church-corporation (whatever that is) and have underlings to rule over not to mention a huge flock of brainwashed well intentioned but mislead "sheep" that won't dare question anything they say or do, until of course they have done something so obviously pagan that their eyes open.

Even when these guys get caught sleeping with the church secretary, some of their flocks still won't wake up. The sheep analogy is almost universally projected as what and how believers should behave, if they are "good" Christians. Dumb and compliant, ready and willing to go and do anything the shepherd says.

There are some problems with this. First of all, where do we get the idea that a human preacher is a shepherd over the persons who come to hear him preach? The bible says we are all priests with one High Priest, Jesus. So of course man cannot have that, that would mean we are all equally valid and all can read the Word on our own and hear from the High Priest directly.

Can't have that, we have to create a top-down hierarchy. Where do we get this idea that their are "senior" or "head" pastors? Where do we get this rank structure from? True bishops and deacons are mentioned, but no where does it say that they are better or more priveleged than the other believers. What we have today is clergy elitiism over the stupid "sheep".

If the sheep analogy was correct, why do we assume that the sheep are all to be baby ewe-lambs? Some sheep are rambunctious, RAMS with horns that will attack predators to protect the flock. Usually rams get alienated by these "shepherds" who cannot deal with them objecting to the fleecing they conduct.

The other problem with the sheep analogy is that I haven't heard of too many warrior sheep. On the one hand we are to be these sheep (re: easily manipulated) like humans, but on the other hand we are to put on the armor of God and do battle with the enemy. This "be a sheep" thing is so ingrained into christians that they truly have become sheepish. They can't fulfill the great commission because they have no ability to defend themselves. So they hide in the santuary planning potluck dinners. I know this because I have tried to get some of these sheople to come street witness and very few will. They just don't have it in them. What "it" is has been excused as a lack of "an extroverted personality" but I contend it is a lack of the Holy Spirit.

I have to say it.

Most of these churches today are NOT CHURCHES AT ALL.

They are glorified social clubs for hypocrites and thieves that have figured out how to have a good standard of living without producing anything. They stage one or two productions a week that they call "services" where they deliver sugar coated mindless drivel in a condescending "this is what it means because we say so" manner that is designed to avert any questions because they use the one way sermon approach. They say "come forward if you have questions" afterwards but they know full well that that puts the onus on the "sheep" to either challenge the shepherd (rather unsheep like behavior, that will cause people to question your salvation if done to much or at all in some "churches") or admit that they couldn't understand something because they are too dumb. In other words it is one way communication for an hour or two, that these guys deliver after spending a few minutes looking up some other guys sermons and commentaries that they then have the audacity to call "work". How come when the rest of the church studies the bible it isn't work? How come it is considered work if a staff member does it? BECAUSE THEY WANT YOU TO PAY THEM! It is mostly about the money.

I could go on about this for hours. Wake up, open your eyes and be a Berean.

[Crow]

Originally posted by c.moore

My church preaches if a person don`t pay tithes they are a thief and anyone who if caught being a leader or belong to the gospel team who doesn`t pay tithes is not allowed to be in any office or take part in leadership in any way in our church and some don`t even talk to a person who don`t pay tithes or sit at the same table with a tothes thief.

This is what tithes do in some church and mine.

What do you think about this????

I think that it is an evil teaching.

[godrulz]

Cheesemun:

Ephesians 4 gives a 5-fold ministry of elders. The Bible does not just mention elders and deacons, but also pastors, teachers, etc.

Leadership must have integrity, character, etc. and is to serve and equip the people. The Bible is not anti-leadership.

The clergy-laity distinction is an unfortunate development in church history. We are all ministers, but that does not mean we are all leaders. We are a royal priesthood, but we cannot carry that analogy too far to contradict other explicit passages about true leadership serving the flock and accountable to the Head of the Church.

In your zeal for an ideal NT church (read Corinthians and Acts...the early church had growing pains, immorality, conflicts, etc. It is a myth that the early church was perfect or the prototype in every way) be careful to not develop a short-sighted ecclesiology that negates leadership, giving, ministry, buildings, etc. Meeting in a bar is no more or less sp