More on "All Things"

[*Acts9_12Out*]

In this continuing discussion, I'm interested to find out how the determinists here define God's knowledge of "all things" in Scripture.

Us OV'ers argue God's knowledge of "all things" is defined as knowledge of "all things" that are knowable.

1 John 3:20
20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

The calvinists here seem to believe that "all things" refers to everything, including an unknowable future. For sake of this discussion, I would like to know if the calvinists here believe Christ also has unlimited knowledge of "all things," inclluding an unknowable future... Peter's own words state that Christ knows "all things" in John 21.

John 21:17
17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus said to him, "Feed My sheep.

If God knows "all things" (1 John 3:20), and Christ knows "all things" (John 21:17), do the Father and Son share knowledge of the same "all things" referenced above?

Thoughts anyone?

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

[lee_merrill]

H Jeremy, :wave:

I was about to post a post saying "Where did everybody go?"

The calvinists here seem to believe that "all things" refers to everything, including an unknowable future.

I would agree. Only I wouldn't call the future unknowable, because I believe God knows it!

If God knows "all things" (1 John 3:20), and Christ knows "all things" (John 21:17), do the Father and Son share knowledge of the same "all things" referenced above?

I believe Jesus had indirect access to all knowledge while he was on earth, and direct access to all knowledge after his resurrection, with the possible exception of the time of his return. So basically, yes...

I think this is the toss before the serve, though... :aimiel:

Blessings,
Lee

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Hi Lee,

I must say, you answer is a bit confusing. I see this is going to be just like the "Without Fail" thread awhile back. We asked tough questions, and none of your calvinist cohorts came to join you. I thank you for at least having the courage to attempt to address the issuses.

I guess what confuses me the most is, you answer "yes" to my question, but the reality of your explaination forces a "no" response. I asked,

If God knows "all things" (1 John 3:20), and Christ knows "all things" (John 21:17), do the Father and Son share knowledge of the same "all things" referenced above?

You answered,

I believe Jesus had indirect access to all knowledge while he was on earth, and direct access to all knowledge after his resurrection, with the possible exception of the time of his return. So basically, yes...

Notice the confusion highlighted by me above. I asked if Christ knows "all things" in the same manner in which the Father knows "all things" and you said, So basically, yes... but with exception. How can Christ know "all things" with an exception? Either He knows "all things" or He doesn't. If there is one thing Christ does not have knowledge of, then He does not know "all things," right? Wouldn't the "time of His return" be included in "all things" if Christ has knowledge of "all things" just as Peter stated?

Secondly, you claim that God knows the future. How is an unknowable future included in "all things" that God knows? Doesn't God know "all things" that are knowable? If the future is unknowable, how can God know it?

God Bless, --Jeremy

[Clete]

Jeremy,

First let me say, cool thread! I too was beginning to think everybody was on vacation or something.

Allow me to play devil's advocate and anticipate at least part of Lee's response...

By what means have you determined that the future is unknowable? It seems at this point that the premise that God cannot know the future is based upon this single assumption. Can you establish that the future is, in fact, unknowable?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Jeremy: If there is one thing Christ does not have knowledge of, then He does not know "all things," right?

The Father would tell him if he asked! Even while he was on earth:

John 11:22 But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask.

So potential knowledge of all things, and actual knowledge of all but this, or maybe Jesus knows this now, that is possible, too.

Jeremy: Secondly, you claim that God knows the future. How is an unknowable future included in "all things" that God knows?

Clete: Can you establish that the future is, in fact, unknowable?

You took the mouth right out of my words! If you are playing devil's advocate, does that make me the devil, though? :shocked:

God does know some of the future, he is certain of it, and is not guessing:

Genesis 17:20 I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers.
Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation...
Isaiah 39:6 The time will surely come when everything in your palace, and all that your fathers have stored up until this day, will be carried off to Babylon.
Jeremiah 30:10 "'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.
Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.
2 Corinthians 1:22 ... and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Thus I think we may conclude that the future is not unknowable, and that "all things" includes the future, too.

Blessings,
Lee

[Clete]

Originally posted by lee_merrill
You took the mouth right out of my words! If you are playing devil's advocate, does that make me the devil, though? :shocked:
:shut:

God does know some of the future, he is certain of it, and is not guessing:

Genesis 17:20 I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers.
Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation...
Isaiah 39:6 The time will surely come when everything in your palace, and all that your fathers have stored up until this day, will be carried off to Babylon.
Jeremiah 30:10 "'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.
Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.
2 Corinthians 1:22 ... and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Thus I think we may conclude that the future is not unknowable, and that "all things" includes the future, too.

Blessings,
Lee
I do not believe the Biblical evidence is sufficient to prove that the future is knowable in the way you suggest (exhaustively).
The future is, however, DEFINATELY predictable!
The more information you have at your disposal the more predictable the future becomes. God is able to know all things that are knowable and thus He is able to very accurately predict the future. He is also able to interact with His creation and work to bring about certain things that He wishes to have happen. There are, however, Biblical examples of God predicting things that do not end up happening and situations were God regrets having done something or where God changes His mind, none of which would make any sense, even if figuratively interpreted, if God knows the future exhaustively. Therefore we can say that God is quite certain what will happen, at least in general terms, but to say that He knows the future exhaustively is an overstatement and is at odds with Scripture.

Resting in Him,
Clete :Clete:

[lee_merrill]

Hi Clete,

The more information you have at your disposal the more predictable the future becomes. God is able to know all things that are knowable and thus He is able to very accurately predict the future.

But these above verses show God being certain about the future, in areas that involve human choices, and some in areas where OV people hold that God will not force the issue:

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Are you saying that God can be certain about human choices, sometimes? But how can God be certain about the choices of people who are not yet in existence?

Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation...

That involves lots of human choices, mostly with people not yet born.

There are, however, Biblical examples of God predicting things that do not end up happening and situations were God regrets having done something or where God changes His mind, none of which would make any sense, even if figuratively interpreted, if God knows the future exhaustively.

Well, let's deal with them! But if God can guarantee the future, then certainly God is not estimating...

Here is are two verses that needs addressing:

Jeremiah 3:7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it.

Jeremiah 3:19-20 I thought you would call me 'Father' and not turn away from following me. But like a woman unfaithful to her husband, so you have been unfaithful to me,

"Thought" can be "said," though, and "but" can be "and." As in these translations:

"And I say, after her doing all these, Unto Me thou dost turn back, and she hath not turned back." (Young's)

"And I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from following me. Surely as a woman treacherously departeth from her companion, so have ye dealt treacherously with me." (Darby)

Now if she does return in the future, and does not turn away forever, then what God said is true, and is not a mistake:

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: "You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the Lord my God."

Blessings,
Lee

[Clete]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Hi Clete,



But these above verses show God being certain about the future, in areas that involve human choices, and some in areas where OV people hold that God will not force the issue:

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Are you saying that God can be certain about human choices, sometimes? But how can God be certain about the choices of people who are not yet in existence?

Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation...

That involves lots of human choices, mostly with people not yet born.



Well, let's deal with them! But if God can guarantee the future, then certainly God is not estimating...

Here is are two verses that needs addressing:

Jeremiah 3:7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it.

Jeremiah 3:19-20 I thought you would call me 'Father' and not turn away from following me. But like a woman unfaithful to her husband, so you have been unfaithful to me,

"Thought" can be "said," though, and "but" can be "and." As in these translations:

"And I say, after her doing all these, Unto Me thou dost turn back, and she hath not turned back." (Young's)

"And I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from following me. Surely as a woman treacherously departeth from her companion, so have ye dealt treacherously with me." (Darby)

Now if she does return in the future, and does not turn away forever, then what God said is true, and is not a mistake:

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: "You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the Lord my God."

Blessings,
Lee

Why jump through all the hoops trying to get a perfectly plain passage of scripture to say the exact opposite of what it is clearly trying to communicate?
Why?
Why is it so odious to believe that God does not know precisely what will happen in the future?
What damage does it do to God to see Him as a person who is trying His best to do what can be done to save as many of His lost creation as possible?
Isn't it a lot easier just to take the Bible at face value and believe in a God who can be surprised and who can change His mind and who can make decisions that He later regrets and who genuinely interacts on a personal level with creatures whom He has given a genuinely free will?
I really don't get it? Why is this idea of God being a know-it-all, so important to you Calvinist types?

And there are lots more passages that you would have to deal with than the couple you mentioned.
Here’s a few for you to mull over…

Genesis 6:6 - And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Exodus 32:14 - So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Deut. 32:36 - Indeed, the LORD will judge his people,
and he will change his mind about his servants,
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free

I Samuel 15:35 - And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.

2 samuel 24:16 - When the Lord's angel was about to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord changed his mind about punishing the people and said to the angel who was killing them, "Stop! That's enough!" The angel was by the threshing place of Araunah, a Jebusite

Jer. 15:6 - You have forsaken me and turned your back on me," says the LORD. "Therefore, I will raise my clenched fists to destroy you. I am tired of always giving you another chance.

Jer. 18:8, 10 - and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will repent of the evil that I intended to do to it. and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will repent of the good which I had intended to do to it.

Jer 26:3 It may be they will listen, and every one turn from his evil way, that I may repent of the evil which I intend to do to them because of their evil doings.

Jer 42:10 If you will remain in this land, then I will build you up and not pull you down; I will plant you, and not pluck you up; for I repent of the evil which I did to you.

Joe 2:13 and rend your hearts and not your garments." Return to the LORD, your God, for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love, and repents of evil.

Amo 7:3 The LORD repented concerning this; "It shall not be," said the LORD

Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it.

And in regards to thwarting the will of God…

Proverbs 1:24 Because I have called and you refused, I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded, 25 Because you disdained all my counsel, And would have none of my rebuke,

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.

And there are many more! Indeed, there are whole books of the Bible that simply make no sense if God exhaustively knows the future!

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I generally avoid proof texting as it tends to bog down the discussion. Please don’t feel obligated to respond to each verse. I only posted them to show that I can proof text with the best of them. The real catch is that I have as many proof texts as there are verses in the Bible! I simply do not have any problem texts! You brought up a few that you believe cause the OV a problem but there isn’t anything in them that requires a belief that God knows the future in advance. There are at least a thousand different things that could have come about that would have fit into the verses that you site. Things did not have to happen precisely the way they did in order for those “prophecies� to come true. And even if they hadn’t come true at all, it would not have been the first time or the last. Prophecy is not prewritten history!

[freelight]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

In this continuing discussion, I'm interested to find out how the determinists here define God's knowledge of "all things" in Scripture.

Us OV'ers argue God's knowledge of "all things" is defined as knowledge of "all things" that are knowable.



The calvinists here seem to believe that "all things" refers to everything, including an unknowable future. For sake of this discussion, I would like to know if the calvinists here believe Christ also has unlimited knowledge of "all things," inclluding an unknowable future... Peter's own words state that Christ knows "all things" in John 21.



If God knows "all things" (1 John 3:20), and Christ knows "all things" (John 21:17), do the Father and Son share knowledge of the same "all things" referenced above?

Thoughts anyone?

--Jeremy Finkenbinder



)========== Hello Jeremy and all,...................it would appear that Christ could no more know the unknowable future(exhaustively) any more than God the Father knows it - of course Jesus the Man would have a lesser degree of knowledge with his mortal limitations.

The examples in both of your scriptural references in no way implies an exhaustive knowledge necessarily...but are more likely relative to the context in which these statements are made - In 1 John 3:20......the indication is being that God knows our hearts......'all' that is in them. John 21:17 also implies that Jesus being who he is ( more spiritually developed and keen than himself) knows what is truly in his heart (if he loved him or not).
Therefore these verses do not and cannot necessarily prove any exhaustive knowledge of God...they are merely assumed suppositions relative to their immediate context.

I propose/assume that because God is truly transcendent and supreme in his divinity and knowledge.....that to Man it is logical to assume He knows 'all things'.....for all things are ever before him within the scope of His divine Consciousness. God is ever knowing all past and currently present events/realities AS they have transpired and ARE transpiring. These are knowable and currently known realities - actuals that are actually existing and coming into existence from moment to moment...and obviously all that is past. However it is evident that God does not know exhaustively the future....as many variables exist that help shape/govern how potentialities become actualities...in the spontanaeity of Life as it ever unfolds - among these are free agency(free will). We can say that God certainly knows all potentials in existence...and possible outcomes....for He dreams these into being and wills that His free will creatures will coordinate their wills with His....in mutual cooperation...so that both enjoy continued pleasures thru-out eternity. It stands to reason God cannot know all things exhaustively. 'All knowing' refers to his transcendent knowledge...for all things are ever transpiring and being born(arising) within His divine Consciousness - in this sense certainly Deity is all knowing. He is ever knowing all things past, present....and all future potential destinies. God is Supreme, goes without saying. So...He is indeed all knowing...knowing all things that are within his field of knowing. It must be frightening for some to consider that God may even face the unknowable! Well......the unknowable is ever present within the unfolding sequence of potentials turning into actuals from moment to moment within a certain dimension-frequency that is coming to be known...but the near and far future events as they transpire cannot be known exhaustively because they are not yet 'actual' or 'actualized' in the most concrete sense. Gods knowledge forever of course far transcends mans for Gods universality and supremacy is multi if not trans-dimensional. One must consider the coordinates of free will within the Universe of God.....as factoral in the conditioning of laws that govern potentials turning into actuals in the unfolding of time. While God may never be 'surprised'.....I believe He still maintains a degree of wonder and awe with-in His creation and ever anticipates how the universes and his free will creatures shall fare in their spiritual journeys....as they expand in accordance to his divine Will, plan, hopes and dreams.
The whole establishment of 'covenants' are premised upon the principle of free agency and cooperation. With these dynamics at work within the unfolding of time-space events and realities as they come into being.....God cannot know the future (as it will unfold in minute detail and perfection)...for such potentials have not yet become actuals.

I am content currently to know that Gods knowledge is vastly superior to Mans........and in that I am sure to trust in His divine Providence...knowing that His Will is ever good and true. He knows all the plans and dreams that He has for Man...and is ever dreaming the expansion of infinite joy and pleasure for all his creation. All potentials and actuals are ever arising in His divine Consciousness.....in eternal revolution. God knows His Will indeed. God knows all that is past. God knows all that is occuring NOW(present). God is coming to know all future unfoldings/events as they become actual.



paul

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Stop smacking the truth, Clete! You're s'posed to believe it! :)

Clete: Why jump through all the hoops trying to get a perfectly plain passage of scripture to say the exact opposite of what it is clearly trying to communicate?

It's not clear, though! "Thought" is Hebrew "davar," which normally means "said." Thus "thought" is an unusual meaning here. The word "but" is usually "and," again, we have the secondary meaning. So your interpretation has hoops here, too. The normal, everyday meaning of these words does not result in absurdity, these choices appear in some translations, even.

I simply do not have any problem texts!

I think the verses I quoted are problems for your view, though!

Why is it so odious to believe that God does not know precisely what will happen in the future?

Because Scripture says he does! He says "surely this," and "certainly that."

What damage does it do to God to see Him as a person who is trying His best to do what can be done to save as many of His lost creation as possible?

Then maybe we can do better! Or some other god...

2 Kings 1:2 So he sent messengers, saying to them, "Go and consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron, to see if I will recover from this injury."

Isn't it a lot easier just to take the Bible at face value and believe in a God who can be surprised and who can change His mind and who can make decisions that He later regrets and who genuinely interacts on a personal level with creatures whom He has given a genuinely free will?

We have to take all the verses, though! And that's not always easy...

And there are lots more passages that you would have to deal with than the couple you mentioned.

We're done with the toss, I think, here's the serve! I will pick the ones I think are especially difficult, and not address them all, as you suggested further down...

Genesis 6:6 - And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

Genesis 6:6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. (NIV)

Exodus 32:14 - So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Exodus 32:14 Then the Lord relented ... (NIV)

The battle of the translations, here...

Deut. 32:36 - Indeed, the LORD will judge his people,
and he will change his mind about his servants,
when he sees their strength is gone
and no one is left, slave or free

Deuteronomy 32:36 The Lord will judge his people and have compassion on his servants ... (NIV)

I Samuel 15:35 - And Samuel went no more to see Saul until the day of his death. Nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord regretted that He had made Saul king over Israel.

1 Samuel 15:35 And the Lord was grieved that he had made Saul king over Israel. (NIV)

2 samuel 24:16 - When the Lord's angel was about to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord changed his mind about punishing the people and said to the angel who was killing them, "Stop! That's enough!" The angel was by the threshing place of Araunah, a Jebusite

2 Samuel 24:16 When the angel stretched out his hand to destroy Jerusalem, the Lord was grieved because of the calamity ... (NIV)

Jon 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God repented of the evil which he had said he would do to them; and he did not do it.

Are you saying that God thought the Ninevites would not repent? Then Jonah had a better grasp of the situation than God! "Is this not what I said when I was still at home?" (Jon. 4:2). Then we should consult disobedient prophets, instead of God, sometimes. "Go and consult Baal-Zebub..."

And in regards to thwarting the will of God…

John 5:40 “But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life."

This doesn't imply that they will never come...

Acts 7:51 “You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you."

I believe we may hope that all will be saved. Thus they will not resist forever...

Romans 11:31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

Paul: God is coming to know all future unfoldings/events as they become actual.

Clete: You brought up a few that you believe cause the OV a problem but there isn’t anything in them that requires a belief that God knows the future in advance. There are at least a thousand different things that could have come about that would have fit into the verses ...

Let's just pick one of these...

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Now I don't see any way to avoid the conclusion that he and he household would indeed all be saved, when Peter brought his message. And this is certainly knowledge of the future in advance.

I recommend to you a search on the word "surely." I chose a small selection of prophecies! Prophecies that involve human choices, too, and even choices about salvation...

Blessings,
Lee

[GodsfreeWill]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

You took the mouth right out of my words! If you are playing devil's advocate, does that make me the devil, though? :shocked:

God does know some of the future, he is certain of it, and is not guessing:

Genesis 17:20 I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers.

If God says HE will make somebody fruitful, He's going to do it. This has nothing to do with foreknowledge. God obviously foreknows decisions He's made Himself. I think this principle is explained in Isaiah 46:

9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'

Genesis 18:18 Abraham will surely become a great and powerful nation...

Once again, God can say this because He already said He would do this. If you remember in Genesis 15, where God told Abraham (Abram) "Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." This was an unconditional covenant to Abraham. Again in Genesis 17:6 God says to Abraham "I will make you exceedingly fruitful; and I will make nations of you, and kings shall come from you. " So once again the principle in Isaiah 46 applies.

Jeremiah 30:10 "'So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,' declares the LORD. 'I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid.

Same thing here. "I will surely save you"

2 Corinthians 1:22 ... and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Once again, God has Himself guaranteed our salvation after He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 13:12, Eph 4:30, Eph 1:13,14)

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Now this is a good one. On a side note, I believe you are a calvinist (please correct me if I'm wrong), but this verse disproves Total Depravity. In Acts 10:1-2, we find out that Cornelius fears God.

1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, 2 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always.

Also in verse 3 and 4 an angel of God tells him that his prayers and alms have been heard by God.

3 About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" 4 And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

So we have a man who fears God and prays to God, but is not yet saved by the words in Acts 11:14. I thought Totally Depraved men could not do this Lee?

Anyways, Cornelius is what we would call a "proselyte at the gate." He feared God, but had not yet heard the message of salvation, to which God sent Peter to preach to him. Cornelius is on the brink of being saved. He's ready to be saved, God knows this, and therefore sends Peter to preach the message to him. He knows Cornelius' heart and therefore knows he's ready to be saved. He doesn't need to have foreknowledge to know Cornelius' will be saved once he hears the message of salvation.

The battle of the translations, here...

Well, no need for a battle here. All the verses Clete mentioned contain the exact same hebrew word "nacham." Our english translations want to translate this one word numerous different ways. Well, the meaning of "nacham" is simply repent, or change of mind. It means repent or change of mind in EVERY instance Clete mentioned. God changes His mind. This is the very core of the open view, and hence, the biblical view of God. God changes His mind, and therefore, as Clete mentioned, prophecy is not prewritten history. If God changes His mind, then the future is not exhaustively settled.

[GodsfreeWill]

Excellent post Paul. I don't agree that God knows all future possibilities, but your post was well-written and I enjoyed it thoroughly.

[GodsfreeWill]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Here is are two verses that needs addressing:

Jeremiah 3:7 I thought that after she had done all this she would return to me but she did not, and her unfaithful sister Judah saw it.

Jeremiah 3:19-20 I thought you would call me 'Father' and not turn away from following me. But like a woman unfaithful to her husband, so you have been unfaithful to me,

"Thought" can be "said," though, and "but" can be "and." As in these translations:

"And I say, after her doing all these, Unto Me thou dost turn back, and she hath not turned back." (Young's)

"And I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from following me. Surely as a woman treacherously departeth from her companion, so have ye dealt treacherously with me." (Darby)

Now if she does return in the future, and does not turn away forever, then what God said is true, and is not a mistake:

Jeremiah 31:18 I have surely heard Ephraim's moaning: "You disciplined me like an unruly calf, and I have been disciplined. Restore me, and I will return, because you are the Lord my God."

Blessings,
Lee

Lee, these verses are not at the heart of the open view, but I'm interested in how changing "thought" to "said" changes anything about the intended meaning the OVer is trying to portray. Whether or not God "said" she would return , or "thought" she would return, the fact remains, SHE DID NOT RETURN, by the words of God Himself. If God actually meant SHE WOULD RETURN SOMeWHERE IN THE DISTANT FUTURE, why would He bother saying, "I said she would return, but she did not."?

[lee_merrill]

Hi Doogieduff,

If God says HE will make somebody fruitful, He's going to do it. This has nothing to do with foreknowledge. God obviously foreknows decisions He's made Himself.

But making someone a great nation involves lots and lots of human choices.

Same thing here. "I will surely save you"

Doesn't that involve decisions on their part though? They could rebel, each time God set out to save them.

2 Corinthians 1:22 ... and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Once again, God has Himself guaranteed our salvation after He baptizes us with the Holy Spirit. (1 Cor. 13:12, Eph 4:30, Eph 1:13,14)

Have a flower! That's the "P" in TULIP. Most free-will people don't hold to that, though.

Acts 11:14 He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.

Now this is a good one. On a side note, I believe you are a calvinist (please correct me if I'm wrong), but this verse disproves Total Depravity. In Acts 10:1-2, we find out that Cornelius fears God.

Yes, I am a (four-point) Calvinist, without the limited atonement petal on my tulip. Cornelius didn't start out that way, though! I believe conversion is a process, and it usually doesn't all happen in one moment.

So we have a man who fears God and prays to God, but is not yet saved by the words in Acts 11:14. I thought Totally Depraved men could not do this Lee?

Well, again, I believe conversion involves a process, usually, even with Paul, he met Christ dramatically, most people place his conversion there, yet Ananias tells him to get up and be baptized, and wash away his sins.

Anyways, Cornelius is what we would call a "proselyte at the gate." He feared God, but had not yet heard the message of salvation, to which God sent Peter to preach to him. Cornelius is on the brink of being saved. He's ready to be saved, God knows this, and therefore sends Peter to preach the message to him.

I agree...

He knows Cornelius' heart and therefore knows he's ready to be saved. He doesn't need to have foreknowledge to know Cornelius' will be saved once he hears the message of salvation.

I think OV has to call this an estimate here, though, not a sure prediction. And his household would be saved, too, when Peter brought his message. There are definite predictions in Scripture, which are not conditional, implying real knowledge of the future, even when human choices are involved that God will not override (according to the OV, as in the area of salvation):

ISA 45:17 But Israel will be saved by the Lord with an everlasting salvation; you will never be put to shame or disgraced, to ages everlasting.

Well, no need for a battle here. All the verses Clete mentioned contain the exact same hebrew word "nacham." Our english translations want to translate this one word numerous different ways. Well, the meaning of "nacham" is simply repent, or change of mind.

There's more possible meanings, though! You can't snip those out. It can also mean "grieved," or even "console oneself."

It means repent or change of mind in EVERY instance Clete mentioned. God changes His mind. This is the very core of the open view, and hence, the biblical view of God.

I could speak similarly, too, though! "It means 'grieved' in every instance Clete mentioned, God does not change his mind, this is thus the biblical view of God." But interpreting Scripture often involves making judgment calls, we have to seek the most probable meaning, based on the context, and on other pertinent passages of Scripture.

God changes His mind, and therefore, as Clete mentioned, prophecy is not prewritten history. If God changes His mind, then the future is not exhaustively settled.

But prophecy is prewritten history, when those prophecies are not conditional:

ISA 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.

God makes a special note of saying that the other "gods" cannot do this!

ISA 41:23 ... tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods.

This cannot mean "estimate the future," because everybody does that, I do that all the time, sometimes I am correct, too! But this has to mean really predict the future, and not be mistaken, that is why God presents his predictions as proof of his divinity.

I'm interested in how changing "thought" to "said" changes anything about the intended meaning...

It does make quite a difference! If God thought X, and Y happened, then God certainly was mistaken. If God said X, and Y happened, but eventually X happened anyway, then God was not mistaken...

Blessings,
Lee

[GodsfreeWill]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Hi Doogieduff,

But making someone a great nation involves lots and lots of human choices.

Not with God. If you going to force God into having to have foreknowledge to make a promise like that, you're limiting Him very much. God is definitely powerful enough to make a promsie like that, make it come to pass, and do all that without foreknowledge.

Doesn't that involve decisions on their part though? They could rebel, each time God set out to save them.

Well they could, but that's not realistic. Who's going to rebel when someone's going to save them? By the way, since we're ont he topic of God doing things for a nation, and the possibility of them rebeling, let's look in Isaiah 5, where God expected good grapes from Israel, but recieved wild grapes. He even asked what more HE could have done to Israel that He had not done. Well I guess HE could have predestined it or foreknown it huh lee? I still can't figure out how God can expect something and not recieve it if He has exhaustive divine foreknowledge.

Have a flower! That's the "P" in TULIP. Most free-will people don't hold to that, though.

Actually no it's not. I'm starting to doubt your version of calvinism after this post. The sealing of the Holy Spirit is only for the body of Christ. Israel ont he other hand had to endure to the end for their salvation to be sure. That's why Peter says to Israel to make their calling and election sure. (2 Pet. 1:10) It wasn't sure lee!

Yes, I am a (four-point) Calvinist, without the limited atonement petal on my tulip. Cornelius didn't start out that way, though! I believe conversion is a process, and it usually doesn't all happen in one moment.

Well, you must hold to the "lee version of total depravity" as calvinism clearly holds to the fact that the unregenerate man cannot understand the things of God, nor can God even communicate to an unregenerate man for the things of God are foolishness to him, and therefore a man must be regenerated (saved) before God can even start to work with him. There's no process with calvinism.

Well, again, I believe conversion involves a process, usually, even with Paul, he met Christ dramatically, most people place his conversion there, yet Ananias tells him to get up and be baptized, and wash away his sins.

Actually Paul was saved before Ananias baptized him.

I think OV has to call this an estimate here, though, not a sure prediction. And his household would be saved, too, when Peter brought his message. There are definite predictions in Scripture, which are not conditional, implying real knowledge of the future, even when human choices are involved that God will not override (according to the OV, as in the area of salvation):

Well, you don't believe that cornelius had free will. I believe he did, and that he could have rejected this message. Obviously God knows us better than we know ourselves, and knew Cornelius' heart so well He knew he was ready to be saved, and that he would believe this message if he was preached it. Similarly, Christ knew that Peter would deny Him 3 times if he were tempted. 1 John 3 and John 21 are both talking baout God's incredible understanding of our hearts. It's amazing to watch psychologists make incredible predictions about people just by getting to know them and their habits. They don't have foreknowledge, yet they can do those things. What's even more amazing is what God can do as He knows our hearts PERFECTLY. You can do a lot with that.

As for Cornelius' household, the same things apply. Acts 10:1 clearly states that Cornelius feared God ALONG WITH HIS HOUSEHOLD. They were all ready lee.


There's more possible meanings, though! You can't snip those out. It can also mean "grieved," or even "console oneself."

That's fine by me, but if you hold to the passibility of God, as do I, you must throw away your calvinist beliefs. calvinism MUST hold to the impassibility of God in order to remain consistent in their theology. As far as I know, all calvinists do.

I could speak similarly, too, though! "It means 'grieved' in every instance Clete mentioned, God does not change his mind, this is thus the biblical view of God." But interpreting Scripture often involves making judgment calls, we have to seek the most probable meaning, based on the context, and on other pertinent passages of Scripture.

Ok, I'd argue that the best translation based on context is "repent." King James sure got it right.

But prophecy is prewritten history, when those prophecies are not conditional:

ISA 46:10 I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come.

God makes a special note of saying that the other "gods" cannot do this!


ISA 41:23 ... tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods.

This cannot mean "estimate the future," because everybody does that, I do that all the time, sometimes I am correct, too! But this has to mean really predict the future, and not be mistaken, that is why God presents his predictions as proof of his divinity.[/quote]

Oh no no no. Not once in Isaiah 46 does it talk about God "predicting" future events. Read His word carefully. "I will do all My pleasure,' Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it." He clearly says that He will Himself bring about the things He says will come to pass. You can't pull the calvinist wool over my eyes on this apssage.

It does make quite a difference! If God thought X, and Y happened, then God certainly was mistaken. If God said X, and Y happened, but eventually X happened anyway, then God was not mistaken...

Blessings,
Lee

You're only stretching here, and that's ok. If God says something will happen, and then turns around and says "I said this would happen, but it did not!" No man in their right mind will interpret this as God saying He said it would happen int he future. That's crazy. Your logic may seem to work here, at least for you, but it does not stand up on the whole of scripture. That's why God SAID He would give Nebuchadnezzar Egypt, but Neb never got it. And based on your reasoning, it cannot come true, since Neb is now dead.

[lee_merrill]

Hi Doogieduff,

Lee: making someone a great nation involves lots and lots of human choices.

DD: Not with God. If you going to force God into having to have foreknowledge to make a promise like that, you're limiting Him very much. God is definitely powerful enough to make a promise like that, make it come to pass, and do all that without foreknowledge.

I don't see how this explains how God deals with lots of human choices, though. I agree that God is powerful enough to fulfill his promise, but I don't think OV can say the result is at all certain. Some OV folks say God may override free-will, is that what you mean here? With that ticket, that's practically predestination. Have another tulip!

Lee: Doesn't that involve decisions on their part though? They could rebel, each time God set out to save them.

DD: Well they could, but that's not realistic. Who's going to rebel when someone's going to save them?

2CH 36:15 The Lord, the God of their fathers, sent word to them through his messengers again and again...

MT 21:35-36 The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way...

By the way, since we're on the topic of God doing things for a nation, and the possibility of them rebeling, let's look in Isaiah 5, where God expected good grapes from Israel, but recieved wild grapes. He even asked what more HE could have done to Israel that He had not done.

God wasn't asking for advice on gardening, though! He doesn't wait for an answer, either, and goes on to tell them what more he is going to do. I think the point here is that good fruit from people doesn't come from unvarying pleasant circumstances:

HEB 12:11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces the fruit of righteousness and peace...

The sealing of the Holy Spirit is only for the body of Christ. Israel on the other hand had to endure to the end for their salvation to be sure. That's why Peter says to Israel to make their calling and election sure. (2 Pet. 1:10)

But Peter was writing to all believers, this verse is not just to Israel. And people who are called will indeed be saved (Rom. 8:30), this cannot be a general call, for they must have heard the gospel already. People aren't saved because they are Jewish! Even if they hold on to what they believe. That's just Paul's point in Rom. 9:6,31, etc.

Lee: I believe conversion is a process, and it usually doesn't all happen in one moment.

DD: Well, you must hold to the "lee version of total depravity" as calvinism clearly holds to the fact that the unregenerate man cannot understand the things of God, nor can God even communicate to an unregenerate man for the things of God are foolishness to him, and therefore a man must be regenerated (saved) before God can even start to work with him. There's no process with calvinism.

But God starts his work in peoples' hearts long before they are "born again." I would say that God working in an unbelievers' heart can be the start of the process of conversion, and I don't think that is inconsistent with total depravity. The work in the heart is still God's, resulting in saving faith, but this process of bringing a person to saving faith doesn't happen in a moment.

Lee: And his household would be saved, too, when Peter brought his message. There are definite predictions in Scripture, which are not conditional, implying real knowledge of the future, even when human choices are involved that God will not override (according to the OV, as in the area of salvation)...

DD: Well, you don't believe that cornelius had free will. I believe he did, and that he could have rejected this message.

But then God is estimating here, but I don't think that will do, he says what will happen, not what might happen, or even what will probably happen.

Lee: [Nacham] can also mean "grieved," or even "console oneself."

DD: That's fine by me, but if you hold to the passibility of God, as do I, you must throw away your calvinist beliefs. calvinism MUST hold to the impassibility of God in order to remain consistent in their theology. As far as I know, all calvinists do.

I don't know why this is required for Calvinism, though. I think it is a mistake. How anyone can look at the cross, and the "Man of Sorrows," and claim that God is impassive...

Lee: ... we have to seek the most probable meaning, based on the context, and on other pertinent passages of Scripture.

DD: Ok, I'd argue that the best translation based on context is "repent." King James sure got it right.

Your translations against mine, then. :) We have to look elsewhere to resolve this issue. How about here?

NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

This is the same word "nacham," but clearly the context does not allow "grieved" or "sorry." Balak is trying to get God to change his mind, and Balaam says he won't do it. He can't do it! We have the reason here, too, it is because he is not like us! Not because in this special situation, he has made a firm decision.

Lee: God makes a special note of saying that the other "gods" cannot do this!

ISA 41:23 ... tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods.

Lee: This cannot mean "estimate the future," because everybody does that, I do that all the time, sometimes I am correct, too! But this has to mean really predict the future, and not be mistaken, that is why God presents his predictions as proof of his divinity.

DD: Oh no no no. Not once in Isaiah 46 does it talk about God "predicting" future events.

Well, let's see...

ISA 46:1 Bel bows down, Nebo stoops low...

ISA 46:4 Even to your old age and gray hairs I am he, I am he who will sustain you. I have made you and I will carry you; I will sustain you and I will rescue you.

ISA 46:11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.

ISA 46:13 I am bringing my righteousness near, it is not far away; and my salvation will not be delayed. I will grant salvation to Zion, my splendor to Israel.

Lots of predictions, just in this chapter! And all through the book of Isaiah. And this is God's claim to divinity, that he can predict the future, all the other candidates had their predictions, and they were not perfect, but God says they didn't know about what he is saying here, and he is different, what he predicts will happen! As you note, in verse 10...

That's why God SAID He would give Nebuchadnezzar Egypt, but Neb never got it. And based on your reasoning, it cannot come true, since Neb is now dead.

Conquering a kingdom is a hard thing to find a record of in a brick wall, though. They used the say the Hittites were a Biblical fiction, until they dug some more. We do have verification of lots of prophecies from archeology, so let's not argue from silence in the record. And let's check prophecies we can examine today, and see how they hold up. For instance, the kingdoms that were to follow Babylon, so far so good, and lots of tries to have another kingdom like Babylon or Greece, etc., but all failures so far. Another prophecy is that Babylon will never be rebuilt, so far, so good on that one, too. Another prophecy is that Jerusalem will always be inhabited, and that's still true.

Blessings,
Lee

[godrulz]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

In this continuing discussion, I'm interested to find out how the determinists here define God's knowledge of "all things" in Scripture.

Us OV'ers argue God's knowledge of "all things" is defined as knowledge of "all things" that are knowable.



The calvinists here seem to believe that "all things" refers to everything, including an unknowable future. For sake of this discussion, I would like to know if the calvinists here believe Christ also has unlimited knowledge of "all things," inclluding an unknowable future... Peter's own words state that Christ knows "all things" in John 21.



If God knows "all things" (1 John 3:20), and Christ knows "all things" (John 21:17), do the Father and Son share knowledge of the same "all things" referenced above?

Thoughts anyone?

--Jeremy Finkenbinder

It is not just Calvinists who believe that God knows the future exhaustively. The Arminians also believe in exhaustive foreknowledge, but for different reasons.

1. Did God from all eternity DECREE whatever will come to pass?

Yes= Calvinism= no contingencies/no uncertainties

No= Arminianism
*alternative (Open Theism)= contingencies

2. Is everything CERTAIN in God's mind from all eternity (exhaustive foreknowledge)?

Yes= Calvinism= decree

Arminian= simple foreknowledge (certainties)

No= * alternative/Open Theism (uncertainties)

God is resourceful, creative, and omnicompetent in His sovereignty. He does not rule free moral agents by meticulous control.

As omnipotence means that God can do anything logically possible to do, so omniscience means that God knows everything knowable. Future free will contingencies are not logically knowable as a certainty from eternity past (absurdity; logical contradiction).

There are 2 motifs in Scripture: God knows SOME things as a certainty and some as open. He has declared them and will bring them to pass by His great ability apart from other moral agents (e.g. First and Second Coming of Christ). God knows free moral choices as possibilities until they become actualities after the choice. He knows the past and present perfectly, and knows the future as it really is (much of it is open and unknowable).

This is not a deficiency in God, but the reality of an open creation that He chose to make. The alternative was to make deterministic robots who could not love in relationship.

[lee_merrill]

Hi Godrulz,

God knows free moral choices as possibilities until they become actualities after the choice. He knows the past and present perfectly, and knows the future as it really is (much of it is open and unknowable).

That's 1st OpenView 8:15, though. How can God be sure of the future, where it involves human choices, and make prophecies where he says "surely" and "certainly"?

MT 26:34 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times."

Jesus said "truly, truly," which is his way of saying "this is very certain," this was not a guess, or an estimate! And Jesus said Peter would return, too, and I think Peter found comfort in knowing Jesus said that. Not guessed he would return. That wouldn't be very comforting...

This is not a deficiency in God, but the reality of an open creation that He chose to make. The alternative was to make deterministic robots who could not love in relationship.

That's 1st OpenView 12:17. But that's not a Scripture verse! Yes, God frees people when he saves them, then they can have a relationship with him and others. But they're not free before then!

2 Peter 2:19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity ...

John 8:36 ... if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Blessings,
Lee

[godrulz]

Is that Calvinism 101 or from the book of Hezekiah?;)

[lee_merrill]

Just trying to read it from the Bible book, but glad to hear where I am wrong, if I am mistaken! I think your claim is from the Open View books, and is not a verse, I would ask again, how can God be sure of the future, where it involves human choices, and make prophecies where he says "surely" and "certainly"?

Blessings,
Lee

[Clete]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Just trying to read it from the Bible book, but glad to hear where I am wrong, if I am mistaken! I think your claim is from the Open View books, and is not a verse, I would ask again, how can God be sure of the future, where it involves human choices, and make prophecies where he says "surely" and "certainly"?

Blessings,
Lee

How do you deal with prophecies that use such terms that do not come to pass?

Jos 3:10 And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God [is] among you, and [that] He(God) will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[godrulz]

Originally posted by lee_merrill

Just trying to read it from the Bible book, but glad to hear where I am wrong, if I am mistaken! I think your claim is from the Open View books, and is not a verse, I would ask again, how can God be sure of the future, where it involves human choices, and make prophecies where he says "surely" and "certainly"?

Blessings,
Lee

Which prophecies specifically? Let's look at them in context from differing schools of thought. Some prophecies are conditional, while some are certain due to God's intent and ability to bring things to pass apart from human agency (certain due to His omnicompetence, not His so-called simple foreknowledge).

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Clete: How do you deal with prophecies that use such terms that do not come to pass?

Jos 3:10 And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God [is] among you, and [that] He(God) will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites...

But he did! They aren't there now...

Lee: how can God be sure of the future, where it involves human choices, and make prophecies where he says "surely" and "certainly"?

Godrulz: Which prophecies specifically?

Here is a survey:

Hebrews 6:14 "Surely I will bless you and multiply you."

Deuteronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside ...

Jeremiah 32:4 Zedekiah king of Judah will not escape out of the hands of the Babylonians but will certainly be handed over to the king of Babylon, and will speak with him face to face and see him with his own eyes.

Jeremiah 38:3 Thus says the Lord: "This city shall surely be given into the hand of the army of the king of Babylon and be taken."

Amos 5:5 "... for Gilgal shall surely go into exile, and Bethel shall come to nothing."

Amos 7:17 Therefore this is what the Lord says: "Your wife will become a prostitute in the city, and your sons and daughters will fall by the sword. Your land will be measured and divided up, and you yourself will die in a pagan country. And Israel will certainly go into exile, away from their native land."

Matthew 24:2 Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.

Matthew 26:34 Jesus said to him, "Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times."

Here are two verses I need to address, in this connection, though:

Isaiah 63:8,10 For he said, "Surely they are my people, children who will not deal falsely." And he became their Savior. ... But they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit ...

But this was God's work, and not their choice, primarily:

Isaiah 63:17 Why, O Lord, do you make us wander from your ways and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?

Zephaniah 3:7 I said, "Surely you will fear me; you will accept correction. Then your dwelling would not be cut off according to all that I have appointed against you." But all the more they were eager to make all their deeds corrupt.

I would take these verses as a prophecy about their future obedience, which will happen in spite of their rebellion:

Isaiah 45:17 But Israel will be saved by the Lord with an everlasting salvation; you will never be put to shame or disgraced, to ages everlasting.

Blessings,
Lee

[godrulz]

These prophecies can be made based on perfect knowledge of the past and present (character, circumstances, etc.). They deal with proximal issues/lifetime (near knowledge), and cannot be extrapolated as proof texts that God knows EVERY detail of EVERY free choice from trillions of years ago to trillions of years in the future, even before the existence of something to be known (remote knowledge). He does know much of the future and foreknows it prophetically (judgments, etc. under His control). This does not mean He knows every moral or mundane choice every person will make from trillions of years ago (no proof texts for that).

The prophecies are also things that are within God's control to bring to pass. Am intent to judge an evil nation in the near future based on perfect past and present knowledge is not a basis to argue that God knows who will win the Superbowl in 20 years or if person x will or will not chose Christ even before the person exists (unless you are a hyper-Calvinist, which is not defensible).

[Clete]

I asked lee...
How do you deal with prophecies that use such terms that do not come to pass?

Jos 3:10 And Joshua said, Hereby ye shall know that the living God among you, and [that] He(God) will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites...

Lee responded...
[i]Originally posted by lee_merrill
But he did! They aren't there now...

Not because God removed them from before Israel!

This answer is not acceptable Lee! It is trite and disengenuous at best! God did not do as He said He would because of Israel's disobedience to Him, which you seem to be suggesting cannot happen.
You need to read Jer. 18. It is perhaps the single most important chapter in the entire Bible!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[godrulz]

What is the rest of the story with Joshua 3? What happened historically, and what is the Open view explanation (I am not clear about your point)?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by godrulz

What is the rest of the story with Joshua 3? What happened historically, and what is the Open view explanation (I am not clear about your point)?

nor am i. please explain clete.

[*Acts9_12Out*]

godrulz said,

What is the rest of the story with Joshua 3? What happened historically, and what is the Open view explanation (I am not clear about your point)?

GIT followed with,

nor am i. please explain clete.

I know Clete won't mind that I jump in here...

Let's look at the "history" of God's people and what He says He will do for them...

Exodus 33:2 - "And I will send My Angel before you, and I will drive out the Canaanite and the Amorite and the Hittite and the Perrizite and the Hittite and the Jebusite.

Exodus 34:11,24 - Observe what I command you this day. Behold, I am driving out from before you the Amorite and the Canaanite and the Hittite and the Perrizite and the Hivite and the Jebusite.
24 For I will cast out the nations before you and enlarge your borders; neither will any man covet your land when you go up to appear before the LORD your God three times in the year.

Jos 1:4-5 From the wilderness and this Lebanon as far as the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and to the Great Sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your territory.
5 No man shall be able to stand before you all the days of your life; as I was with Moses, so shall I be with you. I will not leave you nor forsake you.

Jos 3:10 - And Joshua said, By this you shall know the living God is among you, and that He will WITHOUT FAIL drive out from before you the Canaanites and the Hittites and the Hivites and the Perizittes and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Jebusites.

God said that He would drive all these nations out. But later we see these passages...

Jos 15:63 - As for the Jebusites, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Jerusalem to this day.

Jos 16:10 - And they did not drive out the Canaanites who dwelt in Gezer; but the Canaanites dwell among the Ephraimites to this day and have become forced laborers.

Judges 2:1-3 - Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gigal to Bochim, and said, "I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, "I will never break My covenant with you.
2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars." But you have not obeyed my voice. Why have you done this?
3 Therefore I also said, "I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare to you."

Judges 2:19-22 - And it came to pass, when the judge was dead, that they reverted and behaved more corruptly than their fathers, by following other gods, to serve them and bow down to them. They did not cease from their own doings nor from their stubborn way.
20 Then the anger of the LORD was hot against Israel, and He said, "Because this nation has transgressed My covenant which I commanded their fathers, and has not heeded My voice,
21 I will no longer drive out before them any of the nations which Joshua left when he died,
22 so that through them I might test Israel, whether they will keep the ways of the LORD, to walk in them as their fathers kept them, or not."

Judges 3:1-6 - Now these are the nations which the LORD left, that He might test Israel by them, that is, all who had not known any wars in Canaan
2 (this was only so that the generations of the children of Israel might be taught to know war, at least those who had not formerly known it),
3 namely, five lords of the Philistines, and all the Cannanites, the Sidonians, and the Hivites who dwelt in Mount Lebanon, from Mount Baal Hermon to the entrance of Hamath.
4 And they were left, that He might test Israel by them, to know whether they would obey the commandments of the LORD, which He had commanded their fathers by the hand of Moses.
5 Thus the children of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites.
6 And they their daughters to be their wives, and gave their daughters to their sons; and they served their gods.

The main questions I have are -

Why did God say He would WITHOUT FAIL drive them out, and then did not?

Why did God need to test Israel?

godrulz & GIT,

Be especially mindful of Judges 2:1-3. God explains the "history" of this entire event in those 3 verses...

Judges 2:1-3

1 Then the Angel of the LORD came up from Gigal to Bochim, and said, "I led you up from Egypt and brought you to the land of which I swore to your fathers; and I said, "I will never break My covenant with you.
2 And you shall make no covenant with the inhabitants of this land; you shall tear down their altars." But you have not obeyed my voice. Why have you done this?
3 Therefore I also said, "I will not drive them out before you; but they shall be thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare to you."

God said He would WITHOUT FAIL drive out the nations, but the children disobeyed. God, once again, changed His mind about what He said He would do. I am confident that God would have been successful in driving out the nations IF His children would have obeyed.

Clete's point about Jeremiah 18 (and Ezekiel 18 for that matter) fits quite nicely here.

God Bless, --Jeremy Finkenbinder

[*Acts9_12Out*]

Lee,

One quick thing for you... You said,

Your translations against mine, then. We have to look elsewhere to resolve this issue. How about here?

NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.

This is the same word "nacham," but clearly the context does not allow "grieved" or "sorry." Balak is trying to get God to change his mind, and Balaam says he won't do it. He can't do it! We have the reason here, too, it is because he is not like us! Not because in this special situation, he has made a firm decision.

*Emphasis above in Blue is mine...

God can't do something? Wow!

Lee, are you implying that God is unable to do something? Are you now saying he is no longer "all powerful?"

Secondly, what amazes me is, you actually understand the context of Numbers 23:19 in light of Numbers 22:1-23:19. I appreciate that. Take your logic one step further though...

You are correct when you state "Balak is trying to get God to change his mind, and Balaam says he won't do it." God will not be bribed in this situation. God is standing frim and will not change His mind about His decision to bless Israel. No matter what Balak promises to God, no matter how many times Balak bribes God, God will not change His mind.

With that said, why do you understand Numbers 23:19 to be a universal truth about God's character? You seem to imply that God will not (can not?) change His mind... Ever???

This is completely and utterly false. There are over twenty instances in God's Word where He does indeed change His mind. Doogie has referenced a couple, Clete added Jeremiah 18. Believe me, there are many more.

Back to the logic of Numbers 23:19... Numbers 23:19 is not a universal truth about the character of God. Again, God is saying He will not change His mind in this specific situation. We have a similar situation in 1 Samuel 15.

God sends Samuel to inform Saul that He is taking the throne from Saul. God "repented" (nacham) that He set up Saul as king (1 Sam 15:11). Saul lies to Samuel and has a false repentance. Saul asks Samuel to return with Him and worship God. How does God respond? God says He will not change His mind about His decision. God has already decided to take the throne from Saul, and will not make an exception (1 Sam 15:29). God will not "repent" (nacham) in this instance either. After Samuel does what Saul should have done (killed Agag), Samuel went away. God again "repented" (nacham) that He set up Saul as king (1 Sam 15:35).

Lee, why does God "repent" (nacham) twice in this passage, and not "repent" (nacham) once? I thought God was unable to "repent" (nacham), but He does it here twice in 24 verses...

God Bless, --Jeremy

[*Acts9_12Out*]

This thread has flown off topic a bit from my original post. I am guilty as well...

The point of this thread was to find out if "all things" that God knows and "all things" that Christ knows can be limited in any way. I referenced 1 John 3:20 and John 21.

Lee, if Christ knows "all things" and God knows "all things," why doesn't Christ know when He will return? Wouldn't that "future" event be part of "all things" from the calvinist / arminian view point?

--Jeremy

[Clete]

Jeremy,

Post # 28 is POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=561078#post561078)

You may feel free to "jump in" any time you like! There's simply no way I could have answered their question nearly as well as you did!

Brilliant!!!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[godrulz]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

This thread has flown off topic a bit from my original post. I am guilty as well...

The point of this thread was to find out if "all things" that God knows and "all things" that Christ knows can be limited in any way. I referenced 1 John 2:20 and John 21.

Lee, if Christ knows "all things" and God knows "all things," why doesn't Christ know when He will return? Wouldn't that "future" event be part of "all things" from the calvinist / arminian view point?

--Jeremy

The incarnation/kenosis is the usual answer why Christ on earth did not know (veiled omniscience). The Open View would also suggest that at that point it was not certain when Christ would return. Paul expected the imminent return of Christ in his day. The Father will have Christ return in the fullness of time.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Jeremy,

Post # 28 is POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=561078#post561078)

You may feel free to "jump in" any time you like! There's simply no way I could have answered their question nearly as well as you did!

Brilliant!!!

Resting in Him,
Clete

So Joshua 3 is another example of a prophecy (cf. Hezekiah) that appears unconditional on the surface, but was actually conditional? This is reasonable in light of Hebrew style and context.

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

So Joshua 3 is another example of a prophecy (cf. Hezekiah) that appears unconditional on the surface, but was actually conditional? This is reasonable in light of Hebrew style and context.

Yes and it's also reasonable in light of the fact that it didn't come to pass as prophesied. :thumb:


Resting in Him,
Clete

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Yes and it's also reasonable in light of the fact that it didn't come to pass as prophesied. :thumb:


Resting in Him,
Clete

so this could also be used as evidence against those who say prophecies are based solely on foreknowledge. clearly this one was not. right?

[Big Finn]

Clete,

As I'm not an OV'er I'm curious about something. Why do OV'ers make the assumption that foreknowledge requires causation? Is this just a gut reaction to the CV?

Even I, as a non-genius human being, can predict future events with some sort of certainty given the right soft of circumstances and understanding of human nature. It seems a credible idea to me that God, being Creator of all, with an inifinite, intimate, perfect knowledge of everything involved leading to future events should be able to predict future events with great precision.

Hey, I've even been able to predict what words, or kinds of words, would be spoken in certain situations by certain people years in advance, and I don't know them nearly as well as God does.

I'm just curious as to why an infinite God could not, in the OV way of looking at things, foresee events based upon His infinite mental capabilities, and infinite knowledge of everything on earth and in the universe.

[godrulz]

Contingent events have an equally possibility of happening or not. If they are free, they are unknowable, though potentially predictable to some degree. God does know the past and present perfectly, and can extrapolate to high probability some future things (proximal). This is not the same as knowing everything as a certainty trillions of years before these knowable factors are available as objects of knowledge (remote).

[Clete]

Originally posted by Big Finn

Clete,

As I'm not an OV'er I'm curious about something. Why do OV'ers make the assumption that foreknowledge requires causation? Is this just a gut reaction to the CV?

Even I, as a non-genius human being, can predict future events with some sort of certainty given the right soft of circumstances and understanding of human nature. It seems a credible idea to me that God, being Creator of all, with an infinite, intimate, perfect knowledge of everything involved leading to future events should be able to predict future events with great precision.

Hey, I've even been able to predict what words, or kinds of words, would be spoken in certain situations by certain people years in advance, and I don't know them nearly as well as God does.

I'm just curious as to why an infinite God could not, in the OV way of looking at things, foresee events based upon His infinite mental capabilities, and infinite knowledge of everything on earth and in the universe.
Excellent question!
I can't speak for all OVer's but I personally believe that what you've described is precisely the way in which God "knows" the future. But that is precisely the point. A prediction is not the same as the Armenian idea of foreknowledge. Armenians do not believe that God knows future events as mere possibilities but as future unalterable facts. Predicting is not the same as knowing for certain, even if you are 99.99999% sure.
You point out that God has perfect knowledge of both the past and the present. I think this is somewhat of an overstatement. There are passages in Scripture that clearly indicate that there are things that God is not aware of and the He has to investigate to find out. It is my belief that the Biblical data best supports the position that God knows all that is knowable that He wants to know. God is not obligated to be a present first person witness to every detail of every vile act committed by all the perverted sinners on this planet. God is where He wants to be and knows what He wants to know.
He is however supremely wise and has available to Him every bit of information that He might need in order to make very accurate predictions about what will happen in the future. In addition to this, God is able to interact with His creation in order to leverage situations and steer things in some particular direction which He might want for things to go. So God and God alone is able to make prophecies that no other god or angel or man could ever dream of being able to make.
This is the Open View as I understand it and it is what I personally believe. What do you think?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Big Finn]

Clete,

No biggie to me. I do believe God knows the future simply because the Bible says that the way I read it. I subscribe to no one system of theology.

It's just to me that God, with His infiinite capabilities, can factor in everything down to which sperm will mate with which egg, what the resulting genetic information will be, and from that know exactly what a person will be like. And then with that knowledge know exactly how that person will interact with his/her surroundings. I believe His capabilities are just being sold short by saying something is unknowable for Him is all. After all, He is infinite, and the very act of saying something isn't knowable is a limitation. It's saying that God is infinite in His ability, well, except for this area.

It's as I said before, I've predicted behavior really accurately years in advance, and I'm like an insect compared to God in intelligence. Neither do I have the wealth of knowledge and experience that God has. I would think that for Him such an expercise is childs play. After all, He can reach into the human heart and regnerate it. After that nothing else is much of a miracle when placed beside it, at least not to me.

All of us simply speculate about this so one theory or the other doesn't make that much difference in how God knows the future, except for a theory that says God is doing this in a way that will violate the basic core of His character, which I believe the CV does by making God some type of micromanager who forces all to obey Him and then punishes those who obey His commands for them to do evil things. I find such a god reprehensible and not to be found in scripture, except as the enemy of the one true God.

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Godrulz: These prophecies can be made based on perfect knowledge of the past and present (character, circumstances, etc.).

Perfect knowledge of the present does not give information about the choices of people not born yet, though.

PS 22:29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship...

Godrulz: The prophecies are also things that are within God's control to bring to pass.

But these predictions are partly or solely about human choices! Not just God's choices:

Deuteronomy 31:29 For I know that after my death you will surely act corruptly and turn aside ...

Clete: God did not do as He said He would [in Josh. 3:10] because of Israel's disobedience to Him, which you seem to be suggesting cannot happen.

I'm not saying Israel had to obey, I'm saying God did drive out the Canaanites.

Clete: You need to read Jer. 18.

I have addressed Jer. 18 before! With Jeremy and others. In a thread about driving out these very Canaanites here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13871). And I agree that God left Canaanites in the land to test Israel. But he drove them out, too! Afterwards, like he said. They aren't there now, folks...

Jeremy: God can't do something? Wow!

Lee, are you implying that God is unable to do something? Are you now saying he is no longer "all powerful?"

God cannot contradict himself, or sin, or lie. Or change his mind, yes, I hold to that, the ability to be mistaken is not having power!

Jeremy: why do you understand Numbers 23:19 to be a universal truth about God's character? You seem to imply that God will not (can not?) change His mind... Ever???

Yes, the reason is given here, and it's not because in this particular instance, God has made a firm decision. It's because he is not like us! So this does imply a universal truth about God.

Jeremy: Lee, why does God "repent" (nacham) twice in [1 Sam. 15], and not "repent" (nacham) once? I thought God was unable to "repent" (nacham), but He does it here twice in 24 verses...

We have to take both, don't we! So we may take "nacham" as "grieved" when it speaks of God's decision to make Saul king, and "repent" when it speaks of him changing his mind.

Jeremy: if Christ knows "all things" and God knows "all things," why doesn't Christ know when He will return? Wouldn't that "future" event be part of "all things" from the calvinist / arminian view point?

As far as Christ's knowledge while he was on earth, I would chime in with what Godrulz said, and say that Jesus did not have direct access to all knowledge then, but he did have indirect access to all knowledge, by asking the Father. After the resurrection, he may have assumed his direct knowledge of everything, with the possible exception of the date of his return, which again, the Father would tell him if he asked!

JN 11:42 I knew that you always hear me...

Clete: It is my belief that the Biblical data best supports the position that God knows all that is knowable that He wants to know.

But then we dare not hope in God, when he says he will accomplish a given purpose that involves human choices, which God must estimate. But that's not Scriptural!

ISA 19:22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

Blessings,
Lee

[godrulz]

Originally posted by lee_merrill


But then we dare not hope in God, when he says he will accomplish a given purpose that involves human choices, which God must estimate. But that's not Scriptural!

ISA 19:22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

Blessings,
Lee

In either view, the main reason we CAN HOPE in GOD is due to His omnicompetence (perfect wisdom, ability, power, resourcefulness, creativity, etc. His 'estimates' are very precise. Foreknowledge is not a prerequisite for competence. In fact, the chessmaster or coach who does not know all the moves/plays in advance is the more competent one since he can respond to every contingency without studying the foregone conclusion for years).

Is. 19 is based on God's perfect knowledge of hearts and character. He is in control of the exercise of His judgments. It does not necessarily mean that every individual will return to God, but that the group as a whole would. Regardless, we cannot use this as a proof text to extrapolate who will receive or reject Christ even before they were born.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Big Finn

Clete,

No biggie to me. I do believe God knows the future simply because the Bible says that the way I read it. I subscribe to no one system of theology.

It's just to me that God, with His infiinite capabilities, can factor in everything down to which sperm will mate with which egg, what the resulting genetic information will be, and from that know exactly what a person will be like. And then with that knowledge know exactly how that person will interact with his/her surroundings. I believe His capabilities are just being sold short by saying something is unknowable for Him is all. After all, He is infinite, and the very act of saying something isn't knowable is a limitation. It's saying that God is infinite in His ability, well, except for this area.

It's as I said before, I've predicted behavior really accurately years in advance, and I'm like an insect compared to God in intelligence. Neither do I have the wealth of knowledge and experience that God has. I would think that for Him such an expercise is childs play. After all, He can reach into the human heart and regnerate it. After that nothing else is much of a miracle when placed beside it, at least not to me.

All of us simply speculate about this so one theory or the other doesn't make that much difference in how God knows the future, except for a theory that says God is doing this in a way that will violate the basic core of His character, which I believe the CV does by making God some type of micromanager who forces all to obey Him and then punishes those who obey His commands for them to do evil things. I find such a god reprehensible and not to be found in scripture, except as the enemy of the one true God.

It seems we are mostly in agreement on many aspects of what we beleive. However, I would like to know just exactly what do you think it means to say "God is infinite in His ability"?
It seems to be self evident that God cannot do anything and everything that one can imagine. For example, God cannot make a sphere with sharp edges, or squares with no corners. God cannot do the logically absurd. Thus, is follows that God cannot know the unknowable. If He could then it would not be unknowable and if it is truly unknowable then to say that God knows it anyway would be a logical obsurdity.
So we know at least that God is limited to reality (logic being a fundamental aspect of reailty).
Further, we have Biblical evidence that gives direct testimony on this very issue.
I'll give you one example...
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I (God) will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

This is perhaps the clearest example of a situation where God had appearantly chosen to turn His back on the evil of the situation and reacted to the prayers of His people and investigated the accusations that has been brought before Him.

Now I'm not saying that God would have been incapable of having known well in advance of the evil Sodom would come to be guilty of, I'm simply saying that God chose not to know. I am not willing to tell God that if He is not fully informed of every detail of every evil and vile act on the planet that He is no longer qualified to be God. Nor is it required for Him to be omni-informed for Him to maintain my trust and adoration. Nor is there anything in the Bible that logically demands a belief that God either foreknows or foreordains every event that ever happens, indeed quite the reverse. There are of course things which God has foreordained and other things that He knows full well are going to come to pass, but conceding such a point in no way requires the acceptance that God knows everything.

Also, from a very basic and technical point of view, the future is either open or it is not. Either every single event that will ever occur is set in stone as an unalterable fact of future history in which case it would be closed, or else it is open to contingency, to maybe this or perhaps that. If there is even one single event that might or might not happen then the future is open. It is truly an all or nothing senerio. Even a partially openned door is not closed.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

so this could also be used as evidence against those who say prophecies are based solely on foreknowledge. clearly this one was not. right?

I haven't heard anyone make such a statement but yes, this event would blow that idea right out of the water! :up:

[Clete]

Originally posted by *Acts9_12Out*

This thread has flown off topic a bit from my original post. I am guilty as well...

The point of this thread was to find out if "all things" that God knows and "all things" that Christ knows can be limited in any way. I referenced 1 John 3:20 and John 21.

Lee, if Christ knows "all things" and God knows "all things," why doesn't Christ know when He will return? Wouldn't that "future" event be part of "all things" from the calvinist / arminian view point?

--Jeremy

Jeremy,

I'm curious how you would answer your own question, from an OVer's point of view.

[Big Finn]

Clete,

As I said before, as long as one's determination as to whether God knows everything in the future or not is of no real importance to me, as long as the theology doesn't try to make God into something He says He isn't.

As to saying that what I said means that everything is set in stone or denies all free will it doesn't do that at all. It takes into account man's choices and leaves him making his own choice, for good or for evil.

My take on this is sort of like an article I read in the Scientific American back in the 80's on fractal geometry. Using the computers of those days it was possible to determine traffic flows in any given place at any given time. It was possible to show where congestion would occur, how long it would last, and how bad it would be. Now, this ability to predict this flow of traffic was possible even though the guys that did the predicting had no influence over any person's choices as to where they would go, what route they would choose, nothing. They had control over no ones choices, yet could predict very accurately how traffic would flow.

Now, the ability that these guys had is miniscule in comparison to God's abilities. So, I can imagine by faith that God can know just what choices will be made and what people will do before they do it. That doesn't mean our future or anyone else's is set in stone, but that God can just see what we're going to choose. We still make our own freely determined choices, it's just that God has the ability to see what we will do because He knows us so well. He doesn't isn't causal in anything other than He works through the Holy Spirit to share and direct events.

As to the texts where God says, Now I know.... I don't see a great problem with that for I see it just as a figure of speech that He uses with us. I believe the tests that are given us, i.e. Job and Abraham, are given so that we and others might learn about ourselves, good and evil, and God. Thus they are all for our ultimate good and instruction not God's.

See it's like Abraham's test to offer Isaac. He unknowingly prophecied about God sending His Son when he told Isaac, God will Himself provide a lamb. Abraham referred to the sacrifice he and Isaac were going to perform, but in that experience Abraham came to personally understand the heartbreak that the Father would undergo in sacrificing His Son. I beleive that after that experience Abraham's knowledge of God took on a brand new experience. God knew Abraham would pass the test, but Abraham didn't. He needed to pass through the trial for him to be able to understand what was to come. Jesus said, Abraham saw my day and was glad. The Mount Moriah experience was Abraham's glimpse of the day of Christ. He knew what was going to happen and he knew the heart break of the Father in giving up His son to keep His promise to us. Thus this whole experience wasn't about God wanting to Abraham commit murder to prove his faithfulness, but about teaching us through this object lesson just how much the Father sacrificed and about the Father's love for us.

I don't believe causation is necessary for knowledge. However, that's just me. I still get a lot out of your posts, I just happen to disagree with you on what I see as a minor point of theology.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer


Also, from a very basic and technical point of view, the future is either open or it is not. Either every single event that will ever occur is set in stone as an unalterable fact of future history in which case it would be closed, or else it is open to contingency, to maybe this or perhaps that. If there is even one single event that might or might not happen then the future is open. It is truly an all or nothing senerio. Even a partially openned door is not closed.


can you explain that a little more?

[Clete]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

can you explain that a little more?

Maybe I could!

and then again...

maybe not!


:chuckle:

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Maybe I could!

and then again...

maybe not!


:chuckle:

har har :D

ok, so here is my understanding. if the future was closed then nothing could be changed, everything is set in place and just played out. if it's open, then there is contingency, choice, freedom and uncertainty.

i guess i was getting confused about having closed things (like the rapture) in an open future. the rapture will happen, so in that sense it's closed, but as to when it will happen, it's open. right?

[Clete]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

har har :D

ok, so here is my understanding. if the future was closed then nothing could be changed, everything is set in place and just played out. if it's open, then there is contingency, choice, freedom and uncertainty.

i guess i was getting confused about having closed things (like the rapture) in an open future. the rapture will happen, so in that sense it's closed, but as to when it will happen, it's open. right?

Yeah, you have the right idea. There are certain things that God has said He will bring to pass that don't have anything to do with what us humans do or don't do, the glorification of the Body of Christ, and the destruction of this world by fire, for a couple of examples. These things will happen, but the exact circumstances surrounding these events are not necessarily set in place just because the main event itself is. There is simply nothing biblical that demands that we beleive in a God who has predetermined every event that has or will ever happen, its just not in there.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[lee_merrill]

Hi everyone,

Godrulz: In either view, the main reason we CAN HOPE in GOD is due to His omnicompetence (perfect wisdom, ability, power, resourcefulness, creativity, etc.) His 'estimates' are very precise. Foreknowledge is not a prerequisite for competence. In fact, the chessmaster or coach who does not know all the moves/plays in advance is the more competent one ...

But if God can fail in his estimate (the point of this thread), then we dare not hope in him, when he makes a prophecy that is an estimate, and might be wrong. Precise estimates do not guarantee an outcome! And more than great skill is required, perfection is, if such prophecies are not to fail.

And on another note, how does God win, in the area of men's salvation, according to the Open View? What is the criterion for winning? One person turning? Then the devil wins, too, if one person doesn't turn, if that is what it means to win. And if God does his best, and then takes whatever comes, then God wins practically any way he chooses, if one or a few persons come to him. But how is that a special demonstration of God's strength and wisdom, if "do your best and take what comes" is the definition of winning? By that definition, no one ever lost a chess game, on either side...

ISA 19:22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord...

Godrulz: Is. 19 is based on God's perfect knowledge of hearts and character. He is in control of the exercise of His judgments. It does not necessarily mean that every individual will return to God, but that the group as a whole would. Regardless, we cannot use this as a proof text to extrapolate who will receive or reject Christ even before they were born.

But more than one person will certainly come! "They" in reference to a nation even implies most of them, actually. So how can this be guaranteed, before they are born? This has not yet been fulfilled, either, I think, so this prophecy is thousands of years old.

Finn: ... which I believe the CV does by making God some type of micromanager who forces all to obey Him and then punishes those who obey His commands for them to do evil things.

I believe that it is the motive God judges, and not the deed per se. I mentioned this idea in a previous thread, and rejected it, but now I think I believe it. I'm trying it on, anyway. If you see someone commit a crime, and rejoice in it, then that is a sin, even though you didn't do any part of the crime yourself. So if God ordains a sinful action, and the person does it, and rejoices in it, then that rejoicing in it is similarly a sin:

ISA 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes."

Not for all the bad stuff he did, per se! For willful pride, and haughtiness, for his attitude in his heart. So I believe that people are sources of their motive, God can influence peoples' motives and hearts, but for sinful actions, the source of the motive, for which they are judged, comes from the peoples' hearts.

GIT: ... if the future was closed then nothing could be changed, everything is set in place and just played out. if it's open, then there is contingency, choice, freedom and uncertainty.

This difficulty is not so difficult (so to speak) if God is not in time, though. Thus he can make free choices, and know others' choices, and not set them in stone in advance.

Clete: There is simply nothing biblical that demands that we believe in a God who has predetermined every event that has or will ever happen...

I agree, I think Scripture teaches that believers can really choose!

JN 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.

Blessings,
Lee

[Clete]

Originally posted by Big Finn

Clete,

As I said before, as long as one's determination as to whether God knows everything in the future or not is of no real importance to me, as long as the theology doesn't try to make God into something He says He isn't.
That's excellent really. As Armenians go, you're pretty radical though. You're so close to being an open theist I'm having a hard time finding anything to disagree with you about. Most of the time there's only a dime's worth of difference between the Armenian’s version of God and the Calvinist’s. Yours is by far the most palatable version of Armenianism I've come across yet!
I do, however, see some logical problems with your position that I will point out, perhaps you will agree, perhaps not. Either way, it's refreshing to find someone I can count as an ally in my fight against the unjust God of Calvinism.

As to saying that what I said means that everything is set in stone or denies all free will it doesn't do that at all. It takes into account man's choices and leaves him making his own choice, for good or for evil.
Yes, I understand that this is your position. It is a basic Armenian tenant. My minds eye is drawn to something that is logically inconsistent with this though that I will point out in a moment.

My take on this is sort of like an article I read in the Scientific American back in the 80's on fractal geometry. Using the computers of those days it was possible to determine traffic flows in any given place at any given time. It was possible to show where congestion would occur, how long it would last, and how bad it would be. Now, this ability to predict this flow of traffic was possible even though the guys that did the predicting had no influence over any person's choices as to where they would go, what route they would choose, nothing. They had control over no ones choices, yet could predict very accurately how traffic would flow.
A brilliant analogy! However, this is not at all the way the average Armenian believes. Armenians believe that God exists outside of time and can see all of history at once and that He therefore knows what will happen in advance. I know that you don't actually consider yourself to be an Armenian necessarily; I just bring it up to show how far you are from the standard Armenian position. Your position is nearly identical to the Open View position in that what God knows, He knows through prediction and deduction from available information, not by peaking into the future or anything like that.

Now, the ability that these guys had is miniscule in comparison to God's abilities. So, I can imagine by faith that God can know just what choices will be made and what people will do before they do it. That doesn't mean our future or anyone else's is set in stone, but that God can just see what we're going to choose. We still make our own freely determined choices, it's just that God has the ability to see what we will do because He knows us so well. He doesn't isn't causal in anything other than He works through the Holy Spirit to share and direct events.
Okay, this is I think were your logic is flawed.
Let's first define terms so as to make sure we aren't misunderstanding each other.
When you say, "God can just see what we're going to choose", it seems to me like you are saying that God knows absolutely what we are going to do. That He isn't simply predicting based upon the available evidence and information, but that God has followed in His mind a causal pathway from event to event that will inevitably lead to a certain, specific outcome. If this is in fact what you are saying then freewill has just left the building!
There are at least two reasons that freewill cannot exist with this version of perfect foreknowledge.
First of all, freedom is the ability to choose to do or to do otherwise. If someone, namely God, knows with absolute certainty what I am go to do then my ability to do otherwise does not exist and thus neither does my freedom.
Secondly, the idea that we do the things we do entirely because of the events and circumstances that lead up to those actions also removes the "to do otherwise" part of what is means to be free. Even if you add in a complete knowledge of our personality it doesn't help. You've increased the complexity by doing so, but at the same time you would readily acknowledge that God would not have a problem dealing with even the most outrageous complexity so you are left with the same problem.
I submit that even if every possible detail of a given situation is known and the person involved is intimately and utterly known by God that any one particular decision that a person will make cannot be known with absolute precision. No matter how complete ones knowledge, there is always a degree of uncertainty. This is the nature of being free. Without it we are not free, whether God knows things in advance or not.

As to the texts where God says, Now I know.... I don't see a great problem with that for I see it just as a figure of speech that He uses with us.
Could you explain what that figure of speech means? Figures are supposed to explain and illustrate some aspect of what is being said. It should communicate something other than what the plain meaning of the words say. So with that in mind, what does the figure "now I know" mean?

I believe the tests that are given us, i.e. Job and Abraham, are given so that we and others might learn about ourselves, good and evil, and God. Thus they are all for our ultimate good and instruction not God's.
It is clearly for our learning, but I see no reason to ignore what the passage clearly says about God testing Abraham so that He could see whether or not He would pass.

See it's like Abraham's test to offer Isaac. He unknowingly prophesied about God sending His Son when he told Isaac, God will Himself provide a lamb. Abraham referred to the sacrifice he and Isaac were going to perform, but in that experience Abraham came to personally understand the heartbreak that the Father would undergo in sacrificing His Son. I believe that after that experience Abraham's knowledge of God took on a brand new experience. God knew Abraham would pass the test, but Abraham didn't. He needed to pass through the trial for him to be able to understand what was to come. Jesus said, Abraham saw my day and was glad. The Mount Moriah experience was Abraham's glimpse of the day of Christ. He knew what was going to happen and he knew the heart break of the Father in giving up His son to keep His promise to us. Thus this whole experience wasn't about God wanting to Abraham commit murder to prove his faithfulness, but about teaching us through this object lesson just how much the Father sacrificed and about the Father's love for us.
Except for the one sentence I highlighted, I think you're right. Why throw in "God knew Abraham would pass the test, but Abraham didn't."? Everything you've said is in agreement with the text except this one sentence. The text says the exact opposite.
In addition to that there is the passage that I mentioned in my previous post where God says...
Gen 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; 21 I (God) will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.
Notice the future tense "I will know". How is this sort of statement reconciled with a God who knows everything in advance?

I don't believe causation is necessary for knowledge. However, that's just me. I still get a lot out of your posts, I just happen to disagree with you on what I see as a minor point of theology.
Well, I agree with you that considering what all I've seen you post and what you apparently believe about who God is and why, this particular point of theology is a minor one.
You've shown an ability to think clearly and articulate yourself well, two things which I respect greatly. That will continue to be so whether or not you ever come to agree with me on this one point of logic.

God bless!!!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[godrulz]

Many prophecies are forthtelling, not foretelling. They are conditional calls to repentance and faith.

Other prophecies are vague or general and within God's ability to orchestrate things or bring to pass apart from human agency (e.g. Revelation; Messianic prophecies).

A few specific prophecies may involve an exceptional case of God suspending free will (e.g. non-moral issue like naming of Cyrus).

Certainly, Open Theism must give a cogent explanation of prophecy. Each one must be looked at with possible explanations. Foreknowledge is not the only legit. explanation (e.g. Is. 46 specifically says things will come to pass because of His ability, not His foreknowledge).

[Big Finn]

Clete,

I have another analogy for you because I think you are missing my point. It's flawed in some ways, but I think it makes my point.

Let's say you're with several of your very close friends and they are playing poker. Not trying to say you're a gambler, smoker, etc..... ;) While you're sitting there, for some reason or other you are given the ability to see all cards in the deck and in each person's hand. So, you now know who has been given what cards, what cards will be dealt to what people, and since you know the personalities involved, i.e. which people are assertive, passive, tentative, etc... you know how the hands will be played out. Thus you know the outcome of each hand before it is played.

Does your perfect knowledge of each hand mean that you are limiting the free will of the players involved?

[Big Finn]

Clete,

Sorry in advance, but I just couldn't resist. :D :D

I didn't know Armenians had their own special view of God, or that I am even faintly related to Armenians (http://hyesingles.com/homepages/75Index.cfm?affiliateID=google4Ar ), however, I see they do have their own dating service. :D :D :D

[Big Finn]

Let's first define terms so as to make sure we aren't misunderstanding each other.
When you say, "God can just see what we're going to choose", it seems to me like you are saying that God knows absolutely what we are going to do. That He isn't simply predicting based upon the available evidence and information, but that God has followed in His mind a causal pathway from event to event that will inevitably lead to a certain, specific outcome. If this is in fact what you are saying then freewill has just left the building!

Just what evidence is available to God, and how much can He see? That's the question. How much can God figure out based upon infinite knowledge? Can he figure out what genes will match up when two people have a child? If not, why not? And, if He can does that make Him the cause of the specific genes matching up?

God can read our thoughts, so when I have a conversation with someone He knows just as well as I do what I will say. Does that mean He is taking away my ability to think and choose because He knows what I'm about to say? Hardly. Can He influence what I'm about to say? Yes. Can He have enough influence to cause me to change my mind and say something other than what I had intended to say? Based upon past experience... Yes. Can He influence my choices? Yes. I believe He influences the choices of all men much more than we recognize. However, there is a difference between such influence and causation such as CV'ers believe in.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Big Finn

Clete,

I have another analogy for you because I think you are missing my point. It's flawed in some ways, but I think it makes my point.

Let's say you're with several of your very close friends and they are playing poker. Not trying to say you're a gambler, smoker, etc..... ;) While you're sitting there, for some reason or other you are given the ability to see all cards in the deck and in each person's hand. So, you now know who has been given what cards, what cards will be dealt to what people, and since you k