Holy Spirit Is Not The Third Person Of The Godhead.

[OMEGA]

Here is Proof that the Holy Spirit is NOT the Third Person

of the Godhead but only a small piece of spirit from the Father.
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There is a Curious Word in the Bible .

It appears in a number of verses but is relatively unoticed.

That is the word Earnest.

What does it mean ?

G728- H6162 arrhabon: A Pledge : part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest.

It is not a Large Amount but a Small amount .

What could it be ?

Is it a thing or a person ?

Can you give part of a Person ?

It says the " earnest of the Spirit "

God the Father is a Spirit . Has He given us part of Himself ?

The Holy Spirit is a Spirit . Has He given us part of Himself ?

What does it say ?
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2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
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This verse makes a distinction between Christ and God the Father.

Therefore, it seems that God the Father is doing the giving of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
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These verses also seem to indicate the same thing.

2nd Ephes 1: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15 ¶ Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
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What can we conclude from this .

1. That the saints are all given a small amount of the Spirit which

comes from God the Father .

2. This amount is a Downpayment that Seals the Saints or acts

as a Seal or Mark that the Saints belong to God .

3. This Seal marks the Saints for Future Resurrection .

[Aimiel]

Were The Lord to give us The Holy Spirit 'without measure,' as He was given to Jesus, we would not be able to endure, and would probably go mad, from the truth and knowledge that He contains. He must give us what we can bear, and will not give anyone more than they can bear.

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

[OMEGA]

BALONEY ,

Jesus was Filled with the Holy Spirit and he just Leaked a little

when that woman with the issue touched him.

If you have too much , you just go around prophecying and

praising God like they did at Pentecost.

In the Kingdom, God will give you a Spirit Filled Body.

Does that mean that you will go mad ? DUH .

[add yasaf]

oooh, ooooh, Jesus is not the second person of the Trinity either.

He said he was the door, and he said he was sent from the Father.



Ever heard of a thing called an analogy. It doesn't mean the thing described is exactly that thing. Plus, Omega, you ignored those passages of Scripture where the Spirit is talked about in a personal way. Read John 14-16 much? Do earnests teach you all things??
Hmmmm......no, can't say they do.

[OMEGA]

The reason for the Personal Pronoun when addressing the Holy Spirit

is that it is part of and comes out of the Father and

contains HIS mental characteristics which help the Human Mind

to Conform to HIS way of thinking and thus prepare the Human Mind

for the Kingdom of God.


Earnests teach you the Truth and understanding of the Scripture.

To Personal Pronouns teach you everything .

Hmmm . . . no, I cannot say that they do.

[keypurr]

Aimiel Quote:
Were The Lord to give us The Holy Spirit 'without measure,' as He was given to Jesus, we would not be able to endure, and would probably go mad, from the truth and knowledge that He contains. He must give us what we can bear, and will not give anyone more than they can bear.
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I agree,

Reminds me of the Book of Job Chapter 38.
How small mans mind is, how much can it inhale?
Some a lot, some not much, but never it all.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by OMEGA

Jesus was Filled with the Holy Spirit and he just Leaked a little when that woman with the issue touched him.You know when the virtue of The Lord is drawn upon, because of His impartation of knowledge. That's how, when praying for someone, I know when to stop praying, their healing is imparted. They often 'go down,' or may simply begin to jump up and down. It is always perceptible.If you have too much , you just go around prophecying and praising God like they did at Pentecost.No, if you have too much, you just go up, like Jesus did, when He ascended into Heaven. Being drunk in The Holy Ghost is merely a lack of focus.In the Kingdom, God will give you a Spirit Filled Body. Does that mean that you will go mad ? DUH . It will be a glorified body, which is incorruptible, for just that reason. If we were to be given even 1/1,000th of 1% of God's Knowledge, it would not fit into this temporal shell. We are but dust. He is Eternal.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by keypurr

Reminds me of the Book of Job Chapter 38. How small mans mind is, how much can it inhale? Some a lot, some not much, but never it all. Jesus could, but no one else.

[Justin]

Omega,

You are perhaps one of the few people I know who could probably be condemned by the anathemas of every single Ecumenical Council. You're already got the 1st and now the 2nd under your belt; I'm almost certain that if we went through the others we would find the same. It's like a walking, talking summation of the ecumenical movement. We Orthodox call the ecumenical movement a "pan-heresy," and here you are defending and promoting all sorts of major heresies. It's scary, to be honest.

[csmuda]

Howdy Justin,
what it be? I think Omega is correct in his post. But incomplete. there are passages of the canon that use the pneuma the hagion and are speaking of God.

What is the greek Orthodox interpretation of 2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. is there another way of understanding earnest here?

Carl

[Justin]

The term refers to the working of the Holy Spirit within us, so that we might come to salvation. It (earnest) is a pledge, since we cannot have an absolute guarantee because we are still on the earth and still absent from the Lord. There is still a chance that we can fall away from the Gospel. This earnest, or pledge, is to help us hold firm until we reach the heights of heaven, when we will be saved; it is sort of like a starting point on our walk on the road to salvation. Because we are sinners, we can only get an earnest (arrhabon); we are not prepared for more. We must work to go "further up and further into" God's grace. This word, earnest, means something like a security desposit or advance. In other words, through grace, God begins to give us a part of our future inheritance. However, as any child, whether in the real world or in matters of faith, the parent does not just give everything at once, but gives a little bit at a time. This is why Saint Paul said:

"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift... for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, till we all come... to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ" - Eph. 4:7, 12-13

Thus also the reason that Paul speaks of "efforts of faith" (1 Thes. 1:3; 2 Thes. 1:11), and the reason that Peter tells us to "grow in grace" (2 Pet. 3:18). Salvation is about synergy: man and God working together. Every good thing comes from God (James 1:17), including even our own intentions or wanting to do good (cf St. John Cassian, Conferences, 13, 3). Therefore, God gave us a "downpayment of grace," so to speak, so that we might begin to walk on the narrow road towards him. As St. John Chrysostom said in his commentary on Second Corinthians, "He [ie. Paul] said not simply 'the Spirit,' but named 'earnest,' that from this thou mightest have a good hope of the whole as well. For did He not purpose to give the whole, He would never have chosen to give 'the earnest' and to waste it without object or result." (Homily 3 on 2nd Corinthians). And St. John says elsewhere, "And he [ie. Paul] continually calls It an earnest, wishing to prove God to be a debtor of the whole, and thereby also to make what he says more credible unto the grosser sort." (Homily 10 on 2nd Corinthians).

The Church Fathers and writers, from the Scriptures onwards, universally associated this pledge with Holy Baptism within the body of Christ, the Catholic (though not necessarily Roman Catholic) Church. One is saved through baptism, and one is baptized only in the Church that Christ founded while here on earth. This is scary, Carl, please think about it some more? Try reading the Bible from this perspective and see if it is true or not. Books like Acts look very different from that perspective...

[Aimiel]

He is not only The Earnest of Our Inheritance, but also that More Sure Word of Prophecy:

And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

He is The One Who gives us more assurance of The Truth than those 'eyewitnesses' had of That Voice from Heaven. He gives us the inward witness that The Word of God is True. He is The Truth. We have The Lord living inside of us, and He still longs to dwell in temples not made with hands.

[godrulz]

Mt. 28:19,20 NAME of the Father, Son, Spirit

2 Cor. 13:14 grace Jesus, love of God (Father), and fellowship of Spirit...

Acts 5:3,4 "...lied to the Holy Spirit...have not lied to men but to God."

Acts 7:51 "...resist the Holy Spirit."

Acts 13:2; 21:11 "...the Holy Spirit SAID...for me"

Eph. 4:30 "..do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God..."

The Spirit has will, intellect, and emotions=personal. He is equal with the Father and Son (same nature/essence, yet personal distinction in the Godhead=trune). The same line of reasoning to show that Satan, man, and God are personal, shows that the Holy Spirit is personal.

Omega, do you believe that Jesus is God Almighty?

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Aimiel

For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. You call that evidence of the Trinity heresy? Gimme a break, that's not even scripture. :down:

Quoting from the footnotes of my study Bible regarding 1 John 5:7,8: "Verse 7 should end with the word record. The rest of verse 7 and all of verse 8 are not in any ancient Greek mss."

So go ahead and draw a red line through those portions in your Bible. And don't bother using it for a trinity debate again. :chuckle:

Thus it is the water, blood, and spirit that are "the three" that bear witness and bear record. :up:

[godrulz]

Do you use the NIV? They recognize this textual issue. The Trinity doctrine does not rise or fall on this verse.

The Bible teaches the following:

There is only one God (essence/nature).

The Father is the one God. The Son is the one God. The Spirit is personal and the one God (essence/nature).

The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not the Father.

The only way to reconcile all these truths is to see that God has revealed Himself as a compound unity, a triune (not triplex=polytheism=LDS) being. He is not solitary (Jewish; Islam).

Who do you say Jesus Christ is?

Where did you get those ideas?

Have you considered what He said about Himself? (He claimed to be Almighty God and rose from the dead).

[elohiym]

Originally posted by godrulz

Do you use the NIV? They recognize this textual issue. The Trinity doctrine does not rise or fall on this verse.But that doesn't smell fishy to you? No yellow lights flashing, huh? Just something added to my Bible by a bunch of pro-trinitarians...How did that pro-trinty tid bit end up in New Testament, and why?

[godrulz]

Originally posted by elohiym

But that doesn't smell fishy to you? No yellow lights flashing, huh? Just something added to my Bible by a bunch of pro-trinitarians...How did that pro-trinty tid bit end up in New Testament, and why?

The Latin and Vulgate MSS is seen to be consistent with biblical teaching on this point. There is not a conspiracy. The NIV (huge seller) correctly puts it in a footnote (vs KJV) since the Vulgate is a later MSS. The Roman Catholics adopted the Latin vs Greek translation. We should use earlier Greek MSS when possible.

Marshall (NICNT): "The words in fact occur in none of the Greek MSS of I John, except for a few late and worthless ones, and are not quoted by any early church writers, not even by those who would have joyfully seized upon this clear biblical testimony of the Trinity in their attacks on heretics; they probably owe their origin to some scribe who wrote them in the margin of his copy of I John; later they were erroneously regarded as part of the text. Beyond any shadow of doubt, the wording of he NIV text represents what John actually wrote."

See, I have nothing personal against you. I am glad to agree with you when you are correct and clear.

Now you must use textual criticism, hermeneutics, sound exegesis, inductive vs deductive study with the rest of the relevant verses to establish the nature of God. The rest will not be so easy for you.

BTW, have I told you today that I love you? Who do you say Jesus Christ is specifically?:cool:

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by elohiym

You call that evidence of the Trinity heresy?No, I call the entire Word of God evidence of The Trinity. Your dis-belief would be heresy. Try this verse on for size: Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?Gimme a break, that's not even scripture.I'm sorry that you've been mis-informed.Quoting from the footnotes of my study Bible regarding 1 John 5:7,8: "Verse 7 should end with the word record. The rest of verse 7 and all of verse 8 are not in any ancient Greek mss."So, you're saying God is a bear, right?So go ahead and draw a red line through those portions in your Bible. And don't bother using it for a trinity debate again.Maybe you have so little reverence for scripture that you're able to do that, but I believe that each and every scripture was inspired, whether you do, or not.Thus it is the water, blood, and spirit that are "the three" that bear witness and bear record.Yes, and they all bear record that The Holy Ghost is as much God as Jesus and as The Father. They are One. :thumb:

[elohiym]

Originally posted by godrulz

Marshall (NICNT): "The words in fact occur in none of the Greek MSS of I John, except for a few late and worthless ones, and are not quoted by any early church writers, not even by those who would have joyfully seized upon this clear biblical testimony of the Trinity in their attacks on heretics; they probably owe their origin to some scribe who wrote them in the margin of his copy of I John; later they were erroneously regarded as part of the text. Beyond any shadow of doubt, the wording of he NIV text represents what John actually wrote."

See, I have nothing personal against you. I am glad to agree with you when you are correct and clear.Then you agree that Aimiel is wrong to use that verse as proof of the trinity, if you agree with me.Originally posted by godrulz

Now you must use textual criticism, hermeneutics, sound exegesis, inductive vs deductive study with the rest of the relevant verses to establish the nature of God. The rest will not be so easy for you.Wouldn't that burden be on you? I don't see any proof that you have provided that proves anything other than what I have stated: God is a spirit, and that spirit is not different than the holy spirit, nor is it different than the spirit that gives life to Jesus the son. One spirit in all and through all. It is a compound unity (echad), not a trinity.Originally posted by godrulz

BTW, have I told you today that I love you?When you patronize, it is twice as disgusting as when you wrest the gospel.Originally posted by godrulz

Who do you say Jesus Christ is specifically?:cool: Jesus is the Christ, the messiah, the son of God. Now Jesus never asked his disciples to elaborate beyond that, nor did Jesus call himself those things, so that should be a good enough answer.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Aimiel

No, I call the entire Word of God evidence of The Trinity. Your dis-belief would be heresy.Prove it; this time without using made up verses that can't be found in any of the original Greek manuscripts.

I see four spirits of God in Zechariah, and I see the seven spirits of God in Revelation. How did you manage to compress four or seven into three? Please enlighten us.
Originally posted by Aimiel

Try this verse on for size: Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?And that proves what exactly? Where is the Holy Spirit in that verse, and how does that change anything I've stated?Originally posted by Aimiel

I'm sorry that you've been mis-informed.How have I been misinformed? What I stated about the verse you used is true, and godrulz even agreed with me. Are you calling me, him, or the two scources we quoted false?Originally posted by Aimiel

So, you're saying God is a bear, right?Are you on drugs? What bear are you talking about?Originally posted by Aimiel

Maybe you have so little reverence for scripture that you're able to do that, but I believe that each and every scripture was inspired, whether you do, or not.Are you claiming that people could add words to John's letters after John, and we should accept that as the words John wrote? That is what you are claiming, without further clarification.Originally posted by Aimiel

Yes, and they all bear record that The Holy Ghost is as much God as Jesus and as The Father. They are One. :thumb: That is not what the verse is stating, especially after you disgard what was never in the original letter. Furthermore, the debate is not whether three are one. The debate is whether the one is three, specifically whether God (a holy spirit) is this third "person" you like to call the Holy Spirit, as though it wasn't simply God (a holy spirit).

Try again, Aimiel...

[godrulz]

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and Son of God. He did not stop there, nor did John, Peter, and Paul. The religious Jews understood His claims and shouted blasphemy, that He was claiming to be God. Jesus received worship as God, the "I am" of the OT.

Many religions believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. Some believe He is God Almighty, while others believe He is created or a mere prophet/teacher.

There are about 40 verses that show He is God, equal with the Father and of the same essence. The 5 verses used by JWs to show He is subordinate relate to His positional place while on earth, not His essential Deity as seen in other verses.

Thomas (Jn. 20:28) correctly called him "My Lord and my God" (literal Gk. = "the Lord of me and the God of me"...the same phrase used by the Psalmist about Almighty God). Jesus did not rebuke Thomas, but affirmed him and received it as worship.

Jn. 1:1 properly exegeted is sufficient proof.

I cannot imagine any Christian refusing to say that they love and worship Jesus as God Almighty. If you believe this, why not state it. If you reject it, then you are outside of biblical Christianity and are trusting a counterfeit Christ of your own imagination (Gal. 1:5-9; 2 Cor. 11:4).

I was hoping you are a brother in the Lord. Your dancing around the issue is of grave concern.

When people leave a group such as JWs or SDAs, some become godless and want nothing to do with religion or God. They were burnt once and will not risk it again. Others end up in similar groups with heretical teaching of a different type. They are still in bondage to false religion. Some retain belief in God and develop their own ideas. They avoid organized religion. The only legitimate response is to find out the truth and fellowship with those who have it. This is my prayer for you, if you deny the classic understanding of the Deity of Christ (trinity is secondary at the moment).

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by elohiym

Prove it; this time without using made up verses that can't be found in any of the original Greek manuscripts.Nothing is 'provable.' God is A God of faith. You have to arrive at The Truth with the mind of a child, because The Word of God is designed to allow those (such as yourself) who profess themselves to be wise to find just what they want in It, and come to their own conclusions of what The Truth says and means. This is a great mystery, and has allowed many to fall by the wayside; stuck in the mire of self-righteousness. This is sad, because I discern in you a zeal and hunger for The Lord that should not be so easily satisfied. He designed His Word so that those with a pure heart will see Him, and those bent on their own exaltation will not. Humility is key. Not false humility, but true, Godly humility. Being humble enough before Him to tell Him, "Lord, I believe, please help my unbelief." He always answers faith. Have faith in The God of The Bible to not only give you knowledge 'about' Him, but to give you guidance with His Word to actually find Him. Furthermore, the debate is not whether three are one. The debate is whether the one is three, specifically whether God (a holy spirit) is this third "person" you like to call the Holy Spirit, as though it wasn't simply God (a holy spirit).

Try again, Aimiel... I give up. If you can't see that the relationship that The Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) have with one another are the same one that your triune nature has with you are similar, then I can't make you understand Him. He made us triune (spiriit, soul and body) so that we would understand His Nature. I once read that one way of looking at The Trinity is to think of the sun, up in the sky (not literally, only figuratively, for the sake of understanding The Lord better) as The Father, the light which reveals the true nature of the physical universe to our eyes as The Son and the warmth we feel on our skin as The Holy Ghost. There's no one running around saying that we have three suns, and there's no one wondering whether the sun really exists or not. God exists, has A Triune Nature and is hoping that you can focus on Him enough to find Him, instead of relying on your own understanding and thinking that you know Him, and can't be told anything about Him, because you already know it. He is not knowable, since He is Infinite. He is able to have a real, verifiable and dynamic relationship with you; but you have to search for Him with your whole heart, and not just your head. :thumb:

[elohiym]

Originally posted by godrulz

Jesus claimed to be the Messiah and Son of God. He did not stop there, nor did John, Peter, and Paul. The religious Jews understood His claims and shouted blasphemy, that He was claiming to be God. Jesus received worship as God, the "I am" of the OT.

Many religions believe Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. Some believe He is God Almighty, while others believe He is created or a mere prophet/teacher.

There are about 40 verses that show He is God, equal with the Father and of the same essence. The 5 verses used by JWs to show He is subordinate relate to His positional place while on earth, not His essential Deity as seen in other verses.

Thomas (Jn. 20:28) correctly called him "My Lord and my God" (literal Gk. = the Lord of me and the God of me"...the same phrase used by the Psalmist about Almighty God). Jesus did not rebuke Thomas, but affirmed him and received it as worship.

Jn. 1:1 properly exegeted is sufficient proof.

I cannot imagine any Christian refusing to say that they love and worship Jesus as God Almighty. If you believe this, why not state it. If you reject it, then you are outside of biblical Christianity and are trusting a counterfeit Christ of your own imagination (Gal. 1:5-9; 2 Cor. 11:4).

I was hoping you are a brother in the Lord. Your dancing around the issue is of grave concern.

When people leave a group such as JWs or SDAs, some become godless and want nothing to do with religion or God. They were burnt once and will not risk it again. Others end up in similar groups with heretical teaching of a different type. They are still in bondage to false religion. Some retain belief in God and develop there own ideas. They avoid organized religion. The only legitimate response is to find out the truth and fellowship with those who have it. This is my prayer for you, if you deny the classic understanding of the Deity of Christ (trinity is secondary at the moment). What does any of that have to do with the topic of this thread? See, you can't have a discussion. You only desire to find some way you can marginalize me, and wrest the teachings of the Bible.

Go back to the thread you started about me and ask Lovejoy, who also claimed he did not buy the trinity, who Jesus is. Your focus on me regrading this issue is perverse, to say the least.

The topic of this thread is the holy spirit, and whether the holy spirit is one "person" of a "triune" Godhead. I have shown that pro-trinity scriptures were added to the Bible by someone other than the book's author. I have also stated that the Bible describes God as having four spirits, and also seven spirits. Can you prove that the Bible teaches a trinity in light of those facts, or not? If you cannot, then please state so.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Nothing is 'provable.'Then what were you trying to prove by arguing against Omega using a verse that was added to the Bible after it was authored? Originally posted by Aimiel

God is A God of faith. You have to arrive at The Truth with the mind of a child, because The Word of God is designed to allow those (such as yourself) who profess themselves to be wise to find just what they want in It, and come to their own conclusions of what The Truth says and means.So now, because you cannot address my post, because you were caught using poor evidence of your position, your flesh demands that you attack my faith in God. The first blow: you imply that I don't have childlike faith, and that I profess myself to be wise.

First, only God knows if my faith is childlike, or what that exactly means. Second, I have never professed myself to be wise on TOL; and, in fact, have stated several times that 1) I only know what God has shown me, 2) I am not a teacher, 3) God is the teacher. I have always encouraged my words be tested against the Bible.Originally posted by Aimiel

This is a great mystery, and has allowed many to fall by the wayside; stuck in the mire of self-righteousness. This is sad, because I discern in you a zeal and hunger for The Lord that should not be so easily satisfied.The second blow: you imply that I am self-righteous, and that my hunger for the Lord is satified by this self-righteousness.

How has any of what you posted this far refuted any of the points in my post to you, or how has it supported your position or refuted mine? Are you saying I am self-righteous because I revealed flaws in your trinity argument? That's your flesh speaking, Aimiel.Originally posted by Aimiel

He designed His Word so that those with a pure heart will see Him, and those bent on their own exaltation will not. Humility is key. Not false humility, but true, Godly humility. Being humble enough before Him to tell Him, "Lord, I believe, please help my unbelief."The third blow: you imply my heart is not pure, that I have false humility (like your post?), and that I am in unbelief.

Still, you haven't addressed my points, such as the scripture you gave to support your argument was added to the Bible, not by the author, and that the Bible describes God as having four spirits and seven spirits, which goes against a trinity limiting God to three "persons".Originally posted by Aimiel

He always answers faith.True. So why can't you stop sinning? Why do you have ANY unrighteousness if he promised to cleanse you from all unrighteousness?

He fulfilled the promise to me, and he cleansed me from ALL unrighteousness. I've tried to share how he did that, and so have others on this forum, so they might have fellowship with the Father and Jesus. Is it wrong to share that good report, even though some have not believed it?

Here is a post that might help you: Click here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=544013#post544013).Originall y posted by Aimiel

Have faith in The God of The Bible to not only give you knowledge 'about' Him, but to give you guidance with His Word to actually find Him.Shouldn't YOU look into the mirror and say that to yourself?Originally posted by Aimiel

I give up.You say that as though you actually attempted to support your argument with scripture and reason. In reality, you never even tried. Saying you give up is your way of trying to save face, make it look like I am unreasonable, and avoid trying to really help me find the truth you think you see.Originally posted by Aimiel

If you can't see that the relationship that The Triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) have with one another are the same one that your triune nature has with you are similar, then I can't make you understand Him.You mean, if I don't accept blindly a rediculous theory that attempts to limit an infinite God into three "persons", then you don't want to help me. Fine. Walk on by, and I'll wait for a good Samaritan.Originally posted by Aimiel

He made us triune (spiriit, soul and body) so that we would understand His Nature.My Bible states that God took the elements of the earth (dust) and breathed his spirit (breath of life) into it, and the combination of those TWO things became a living soul. You are claiming a soul is something that it is not, and teaching something that is unbiblical. Care to support a triune man with scripture?Originally posted by Aimiel

I once read that one way of looking at The Trinity is to think of the sun, up in the sky (not literally, only figuratively, for the sake of understanding The Lord better) as The Father, the light which reveals the true nature of the physical universe to our eyes as The Son and the warmth we feel on our skin as The Holy Ghost. There's no one running around saying that we have three suns, and there's no one wondering whether the sun really exists or not.I once read about a little girl that found her way into a bears house, etc. Can you stick to the Bible?Originally posted by Aimiel

God exists, has A Triune Nature and is hoping that you can focus on Him enough to find Him, instead of relying on your own understanding and thinking that you know Him, and can't be told anything about Him, because you already know it.The fourth blow: after you assert that God has a triune nature (no scripture yet), you imply that I am not focused on God, and I only think I know him.Originally posted by Aimiel

He is not knowable, since He is Infinite.Now you say that he is not knowable because he is infinite; but you also claim you know him and that he is finite (triune). A double minded man is unstable in every way.Originally posted by Aimiel

He is able to have a real, verifiable and dynamic relationship with you; but you have to search for Him with your whole heart, and not just your head. :thumb: I guess the verifiable part is where YOU have to see something in my character to verify it. So in essence, you cannot prove the trinity, but you seem to believe you can prove all of the lies you implied about me. Why else would you have made those potentially self-damning statements without proof?

Walk on by, Aimiel. It's easy to see where you are coming from. The question remains, where are you going?

[godrulz]

It is more than relevant to discuss the nature of God and the person of Jesus on a thread about the Holy Spirit. I said the Spirit is personal and God.

You have yet to come out and admit that He is an impersonal force (there is no other option unless you believe He is personal and equal with the Father and Son).

Is Jesus a created being? Yes or No.

(you deny that He is the uncreated Creator, the Almighty God, so He must be a creature).

You have showed that one verse is extrabiblical, but not contrabiblical. Few scholars base their understanding of the Trinity on that one verse. You have not dealt with all the verses about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (there are hundreds).

The '7 spirits' (Rev. 1:4) is also translated as the 7-fold Spirit (NIV footnote). There is one Holy Spirit (this is explicit in Scripture), but He has many aspects of who He is. The other possibility is that it is referring to 7 angels instead of the Holy Spirit (?).

Where is the reference to 4 spirits? Is that talking about angels in context? or a 4-fold Spirit? There is only one Holy Spirit (of the same essence/nature as the Father/Son, but distinct as to person).

[Aimiel]

I believe that I speak The Word of God, which He inspires me to speak. If that word strikes a hammer-blow in someone's heart, and they are convicted of sin, then The Holy Spirit is doing His Duty. I don't apologize for the pain which Truth sometimes causes.

Where I'm going, you cannot follow.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by godrulz

It is more than relevant to discuss the nature of God and the person of Jesus on a thread about the Holy Spirit. I said the Spirit is personal and God.

You have yet to come out and admit that He is an impersonal force (there is no other option unless you believe He is personal and equal with the Father and Son).You can have the personal/impersonal argument somewhere else. God is personal, and so his spirit is personal. They are not two different "persons". You have offered no scriptures that suggest that the holy spirit is not God the Father. And to prove your points, and the trinity heresy, you bear the burden of proof, not me.Originally posted by godrulz

Is Jesus a created being? Yes or No.Jesus came in the flesh, born of a woman, under the law. If you call him uncreated creator, you are calling him the Father, and the Bible doesn't teach that Jesus is the Father. Go start another thread on Jesus if you need to talk about who you think Jesus is.

That subject was discussed on another thread some time back, and it was put to bed by Uriah, who speaks both Hebrew and Greek. You can find the link here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=407705#post407705). Don't address me again on that subject until you have read all of Uriah's thread.
Originally posted by godrulz
(you deny that He is the uncreated Creator, the Almighty God, so He must be a creature).Only two choices? Thanks for the straw-animal, but I'll pass.Originally posted by godrulz

You have showed that one verse is extrabiblical, but not contrabiblical. Few scholars base their understanding of the Trinity on that one verse.Do you agree that any scholar is wrong to base their understanding of the trinity on that verse at all? Doesn't their insertion of the false verse change the meaning of the previous verse? That would make it contrabiblical. It sounds like you are trying to defend a lie added into the Bible, which is what I would expect from you.Originally posted by godrulz

You have not dealt with all the verses about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (there are hundreds).I don't need to address any of them if there are seven spirits of God, or a seven fold spirit of God. You are the one that has limited God to three, not me. Seven is more than three. Didn't you learn that in kindergarten?Originally posted by godrulz

The '7 spirits' (Rev. 1:4) is also translated as the 7-fold Spirit (NIV footnote). There is one Holy Spirit (this is explicit in Scripture), but He has many aspects of who He is.Fine. That still makes it more than a trinity. Now you have shifted words, using "aspects" instead of "persons". Quit the word game. Your wiggling is laughable. :chuckle: Originally posted by godrulz

The other possibility is that it is referring to 7 angels instead of the Holy Spirit (?).Conjecture. I notice your question mark. Wise.Originally posted by godrulz

Where is the reference to 4 spirits? Is that talking about angels in context? or a 4-fold Spirit?Look it up for yourself. Hint: the four winds that raise the dead.Originally posted by godrulz

There is only one Holy Spirit (of the same essence/nature as the Father/Son, but distinct as to person). The Bible teaches God has seven spirits, at least. Which one is the holy spirit? Which one is the Holy Spirit? Do you seriously believe that capitalizing the H in holy, and the S in spirit gives your theory any more credibility?

Try again, godrulz...

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I believe that I speak The Word of God, which He inspires me to speak. If that word strikes a hammer-blow in someone's heart, and they are convicted of sin, then The Holy Spirit is doing His Duty. I don't apologize for the pain which Truth sometimes causes.

Where I'm going, you cannot follow. Smile when you say that. :chuckle:

Get lost Aimiel...oh, that's right, you already are lost.

Get found!

[godrulz]

You are missing the boat to think God has more than one spirit nature (7+). There is one God and He is spirit, not matter. The Father, Son, Holy Spirit are all referred to with personal pronouns. The same arguments you or JWs use to show that the Father, Son, Satan, man are personal lead one to conclude that the Holy Spirit is personal and not just the spirit of the Father....sloppy exegesis if you read all the relevant verses.

(There is one fruit, not fruits, of the Spirit in Galatians...but it is a 9-fold fruit).

The only thing I could find was 4 winds (KJV) in Rev. 7:1

NIV "After this I saw 4 angels standing at the 4 corners of the earth, holding back the 4 winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land..."

Is there a different reference to the Spirit, and what is the context?

God the Father is spirit, but this is not to be confused with the Holy Spirit.

Mt. 28 name (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Father's spirit? No....and of the Holy Spirit. The conjuction 'and' shows that the Father is not the Son and not the Spirit.

Jesus is not the Father, but He is of the same essence/nature of the Father. Please do not misrepresent the Trinity (JWs make the same mistake).

Only two choices: Jesus= Creator or creature? Why on earth would you not tell us what the correct third choice is? If He is uncreated, He is God. If He is not uncreated (eternal), then logically He must be created. All things were created by Him (this excludes Him from being created...JWs have the nerve to add the word 'other' into the text to justify their heresy). This issue is eternal life or eternal death. Engage it or one of us will perish.

We are not defending a lie added to the Bible. We could cut out I John and still see the triune God as His revelation in Scripture. I am being intellectually honest and agreeing with you that the verse does not belong. It is true, but it is not inspired to be part of the best MSS. Most commentaries are careful to point out the problem (agree with you).

[godrulz]

Thanks for the homework to read a thread with over 500 posts?! I skimmed some of them. This is like Enyart vs Zakath. Uriyah presented weak, confusing arguments. He takes simple verses and twists them to his own destruction (e.g. says the Word is not Jesus in Jn. 1:1,14).

The Deity of Christ believers tried to represent truth. I do not know how well they did, but I do know they are on the side of truth.

Thank you for finally revealing that you deny the classic Deity of Christ. You still have not said more of what you believe, but I looked at the thread. I do not have to read it all to know Uriyah was sinking.

e.g. Rev.3:14 is an Arian proof text. It teaches that Jesus is the originator and ruler of God's creation (arche cf. architect). It does not teach that he is the first thing God created.

Out of curiosity, some SDA accept the Trinity and others do not. Did you ever accept it?

[elohiym]

godrulz,

You are stating the Godhead is three-fold, and that one of those folds (the Holy Spirit) is further divided into seven folds. Correct?

[godrulz]

Originally posted by elohiym

godrulz,

You are stating the Godhead is three-fold, and that one of those folds (the Holy Spirit) is further divided into seven folds. Correct?

Nope. God is not 3-fold. He is one essence/nature with 3 personal, co-eternal, co-essential, co-equal distinctions (not identical to finite human 'persons'...the Father, Son, Spirit all have will, intellect, and emotion. Fellowship and communication and love are eternal aspects within the Godhead...God was not alone trillions of years ago). The Holy Spirit is not a 'fold'. He is personal and He is God. He is of the same nature as the Father, but He is not the Father in every sense.

There is one reference to the 7 spirits of God which some translators say is a 7-fold Spirit (e.g. The Holy Spirit is holy, truth, love, fire, wind, water, etc. but it is still one Holy Spirit who is more than the spirit of the Father...They lied to the Spirit... The Spirit said...the Spirit was grieved/quenched...these can only be attributed to a person...when these things are said of Jesus, Father, or Satan, you do not use mental gymnastics to explain it away).

I commend you for seeking clarification. This is what I have been trying to do with you lest I misunderstand or misrepresent you.

I trust you are having a good weekend with your family.:)

[elohiym]

I will address your statements when I return in roughly 2 weeks.

[keypurr]

godrulz I am rereading this article and I found it very interesting

http://mikevinson.home.mindspring.com/trinity.html

It has led me to believe in one God (the Father) who's first creation is Christ, who in turn created everything else. The spirit is the spirit of the Father which is Christ.

When Christ was on earth in the flesh, the comforter could not come.
Makes one think that Christ and the Holy Spirit are one, but different forms. Jesus in the Flesh, Christ in the Spirit. Any way, it is something to ponder over.

I never full understood the word GODS in scripture. I know of only one, the Father. I think that the Father created another (lower God) in Christ. For he said, My father is greater than I am in John 14:28

that would mean that there is only One Supreme God and one minor God. The word minor just does not seem to fir the creator of everything does it. But I am just implying that Christ is the image of his Father, not his father.

That will give you some food for thought.

[godrulz]

:shocked:
A denial of the Deity of Christ is spiritually fatal and puts one outside of biblical, historical Christianity.

Christ as creature is the refuted Arianism heresy. This is what the JWs believe and is the reason they are a cult. The Word is the uncreated Creator, Almighty God. He created all things; He is not a creature.

Jn. 14:28 refers to His subordinate position while on earth as a man. In His preexistence He is equal with the Father and shares His divine nature. Hebrews says Jesus is BETTER than angels by nature, because He is God, their Creator. GREATER refers to position, not nature, and does not make Christ essentially inferior to the Father (Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 2:9; Is. 9:6;10:21).

There are about 6 verses that refer to Christ's positional difference and about 40 that show He is God by nature.

2 Cor. 11:4= another Jesus who is a counterfeit; Gal. 1:6-10= another gospel that will not save us.

GodS is polytheism; Judeo-Christianity is monotheistic (belief in one true God).

The Trinity is the only way to reconcile all the biblical evidence.

Jesus is the exact representation of the Father (Heb. 1). We are in the image of God personally and morally. We are not gods. Jesus is the God-Man (unique).

The link is sloppy exegesis and typical anti-trinitarian, pro-Arian arguments that are refutable.

Who is this guy? What is his background and credentials?

[freelight]

Holy Spirit by definition is essentially holy breath or wind.('spirit' of course is much more in substance than just breath or wind). It may be endowed with personality more or less.....and remains a divine essence/influence/force of the HOLY. As expressing personality or intelligence.....it may do so because it is derived from the divine...and may be equated with God as being of the same substance. Jesus breathed on his disciples 'holy spirit'. This was a divine-breath impartation. This understanding of holy spirit is most logical to me per its universal definition.

References to the Holy Spirit using a pronoun portraying the Holy Spirit as a person are situational and appropriate for God is Spirit and is the Spirit being referred to in these instances. Only in the context of a trinitarian imposition upon God is there more of an emphasis upon the Holy Spirit as a 'person'. Apart from a trinity model of DEITY.....a proper and honorable concept and understanding of holy spirit may be maintained.

The Spirit of God may express personal and more or less impersonal traits and characteristics in its ministry and dynamic operations to the consciousness of Man. Indeed God is a personal BEING and His Spirit may operate likewise...yet also in manifold infinite ways....immanent and transcendent. When God moves in holy and wondrous ways in our midst.....these spiritual ministries are indeed holy. It is the One and ONLY DEITY BEING however that is ever exercising Its divine influence and power thru-out.


paul

[keypurr]

Godrulz quote:
A denial of the Deity of Christ is spiritually fatal and puts one outside of biblical, historical Christianity.

I don't think the article is saying Christ is not God (the Son)
It is saying that the Son is in subjection to the Father, therfore not equal. I believe that. When he taught us to pray it was to OUR Father. That does not deny his Godship, just his statis. All things have been put under him BY HIS FATHER. That sounds logical to me.

[godrulz]

There is a sense the Son is positionally and functionally subordinate to the Father. However, He is equal as to nature and essence, just different role in the Godhead. When He incarnated as a man, the Father was greater (position), but not better (nature).

The key question is if Jesus is uncreated Creator, Almighty God OR is he a creature/created being, as you implied in your recent post?

The former is Christianity; the latter is false teaching.

See my thread under General Theology on "The Deity of Christ".

[geralduk]

Originally posted by elohiym

You call that evidence of the Trinity heresy? Gimme a break, that's not even scripture. :down:

Quoting from the footnotes of my study Bible regarding 1 John 5:7,8: "Verse 7 should end with the word record. The rest of verse 7 and all of verse 8 are not in any ancient Greek mss."

So go ahead and draw a red line through those portions in your Bible. And don't bother using it for a trinity debate again. :chuckle:

Thus it is the water, blood, and spirit that are "the three" that bear witness and bear record. :up:

Oh how men weave!

it is amazing how men will remove scripture that does not fit in with thier thinking.
The doctrin of the trinity of God is not 'proved' by one text alone so though ONE verse may in deed clearly state a doctrin yet it is not a 'proof text'
The scriptures do not encourage such a means of proving a doctrin.
Nor then does one verse disprove a doctrin.
In truth if you wish to 'prove' a "sound doctrin" then you must use "ALL the scriptures"
For Gods methods is by "sundry times and in divers WAYS by the prophets and "then by His Son!


If you think then that flat denial is an ''argument' or the quoting of one verse to 'prove' that denial is enough then you are badly mistaken.
Do not think then that by a 'study bible' with mens foot notes you can "come to a knowldge of the truth"
to do THAT in the "things of God" you need the HOLY SPIRIT ,who "will LEAD us into all truth"
Can it be thought that God whos throne is the heavens and the earth but His footstool can be encompassed about by mens wisdom?
or pinned down on the board of mens interlect like some dead butterfly?
Im afraid not.
If you would understand the butterfly you do not do it by gassing it and then pinning the dead corpse to the board and looking through a magnyfying glass.
But you will do so when you FOLOW it wheresoever it goes.

"For what knoweth the things of man save the spirit that is in man?likewise then what knoweth the things of God save the SPIRIT of God"
and if that is thought as some excuse for not thinking then that is wrong also.
But our thinking must be LED by HIM "through all the scriptures" For HE ALONE knows the MIND of God and it was HE who so INSPIRED THEM SO TO WRITE WHAT IS WRITTEN(THE word I MEAN not the footnotes)
Thus if we would have the mind of God as to what is wriitten it is both reasonable and logical that we need HIM who inspired them to so write to quicken US who reads what was written by them!


The trinity of God then is clearly shown throughout the scriuptures.
and the one you dismissed by the encouragement of men who have no understanding at all it seems also is PART of ALL the scriptures.

For if there are three witnesses on earth.
then reasonably there will be three witnesses in heaven seeing that heaven is greater than earth!

The WATER which is the WORD of God is a witness,
#"For ye are WASHED by the Word"
and the BLOOD of CHRIST is a WITNESS
and the SPIRIT of God IS A WITNESS seeign that he has been poured out UPON all flesh. and so witnesses to the truth either of mans sin or of rightousness.

Who then is the witness in HEAVEN?
The FATHER who is the one who is GOD "who in sundry times and in divers places spoke to us by the prophets who hath in these last days SPOKEN to us by His SON"
The SON who is the WORD "who was WITH God and who was GOD"
The HOLY SPIRIT who in the shape of a dove rested or came upon the Son of MAN God the FATHER bearing record from heaven that this is my beloved Son in WHOM I am well pleased"
and who was SPOKEN of as one who would not speak of HIMSELF(EVEN AS THE SON did not but spoke of His FATHER)but would speak of thjose things pertaining to CHRIST, AND SEEING THAT THE LORD Himself said that "No man taketh my life from me but I lay it ddown that I might take it up again"
and the scriptures saying that by the HOLY SPIRIT HE WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD.
IT IS CLEAR that not only is the HOLY SPIRIT His LIFE for only the aFATHER AND THE SON have LIFE "in themselves"
But that the HOLY SPIRIT is GOD also.
and EQUAL with the FATHER and the SON and a person in His own right.
and they three are ONE and AGREE.

Therefore whoever said that those scriptures shoulkd not be there should be asked WHY they should not be seeing that they are in complete harmony with all other scripture.
Yet many of those who say such things endorse or promte 'bible' versions that neither conform to the Word of God nor even with themselves.

Test then A scripture in the light of ALL scripture not in the soi called 'light' of mens wisdom but by the SPIRIT of God "who enelightens every man that cometh into the world"

[keypurr]

Godrulz quote:
The key question is if Jesus is uncreated Creator, Almighty God OR is he a creature/created being, as you implied in your recent post?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I think we are down to the "Who came first, the chicken or the egg?" question.

There are MANY false teachings passed down over the centuries. I think sometimes that you are stuck in the rut of tradition, and it is closing your mind to other ideas. Christ was in subjection to his father, and he created the world for/with his father. The spirit moved accross the earth to do this. The spirit was in subjection to the father also.

[godrulz]

A functional or relational role/subordination should not be confused with an essential inferiority by nature. We are equal to the President in our humanity, but inferior in our position. A husband is head of the wife, but is not superior as to his common human nature.

The Father, Son, Spirit have different roles and relations, but are co-essential, co-equal, and co-eternal.

[keypurr]

We agree on everything except "co-equal"

Christ said when you pray start with "Our Father.............

Not Jesus, Not the Holy Spirit
But Our father

[godrulz]

Originally posted by keypurr

We agree on everything except "co-equal"

Christ said when you pray start with "Our Father.............

Not Jesus, Not the Holy Spirit
But Our father

Jesus said this while a man on earth. There is functional order in the Godhead. As I explained before, headship does not mean essential inferiority. Man and woman are equal by nature, but man is head of the woman positionally/functionally. The Son and Spirit voluntarily submitting to the Father in love and for a different servant role does not make them unequal by nature/essence.

Read Phil. 2:5-11 (kenosis/incarnation) carefully. The Son became a man to die in love and humility. He was the form of God (Deity) and took on the form of man (humanity)=God-Man. The Greek grammatical structure is that He did not cease to be God or equal with the Father while He became positionally inferior.

(cf. Jn. 14:28 my Father is GREATER positionally while He was on earth vs Jesus is BETTER than angels by nature = Heb. 1:4,6,8, because He is God;
Heb. 2:9 Jesus was made lower positionally than angels as a man, even though He was better by nature (different Gk. word) than them as their Creator).

[keypurr]

Godrulz that is how he taught US to pray. To his father.

He did not say to his Spirit or to his Son. He was teaching US His people were told to pray TO THE FATHER

"I go to MY GOD and YOUR GOD" The evidence you may find questionable, but I don't. The Father is GOD, Jesus is his Son (Lord) appointed by the father. The spirit is Gods word. (Christ is the word). So that would indicate that all three have one purpose, BUT there is only one Almighty God and that is the father. Jesus is his son, was created a lesser God. Notice that as long as Christ was on this earth the comforter could not be sent By the father

[godrulz]

Originally posted by keypurr

Godrulz that is how he taught US to pray. To his father.

He did not say to his Spirit or to his Son. He was teaching US His people were told to pray TO THE FATHER

"I go to MY GOD and YOUR GOD" The evidence you may find questionable, but I don't. The Father is GOD, Jesus is his Son (Lord) appointed by the father. The spirit is Gods word. (Christ is the word). So that would indicate that all three have one purpose, BUT there is only one Almighty God and that is the father. Jesus is his son, was created a lesser God. Notice that as long as Christ was on this earth the comforter could not be sent By the father

A lesser God would be a false God or you have polytheism. Judeo-Christianity is monotheistic.

Jesus being a created God is Arianism, a heresy rejected in 325 A.D. (see Deity of Christ thread arguing that Jesus is Almighty God=uncreated).

The biblical pattern is to pray to the Father in the name of Jesus by the power of the Spirit.

Can we pray to Jesus as God?

Jn. 14:14 "You may ask ME for anything in MY name, and I WILL do it."

[keypurr]

godrulz quote
A lesser God would be a false God ........


I don't believe that. Christ can still be considered a God to us. We know he was with his father in the beginning to create all things. He is not a false God. Just a lesser God. All things are APPOINTED to him by his FATHER. His father is also his God.
Like we are spiritual linked to OUR FATHER who art in heaven...............
--------------------------------------------------------------
godrulz quote
Jesus being a created God is Arianism, a heresy rejected in 325 A.D. (see Deity of Christ thread arguing that Jesus is Almighty God=uncreated).

Who cares who rejected what in 325?? Not me. Your my brother in Christ pay to much attention to heresy doctrin from the past. It is time to seek and find the truth for yourself.

[freelight]

I think much could be resolved as we spiritually worship the Only Deity BEING.....the one true God and Father of all. This seems consistent with what Christs will is for us. If we can ascertain, perceive and worship the eternal Father....in spirit and truth...nothing else is required/necessary. I worship the God who abides in the living Christ. I worship the God in all beings.....for God is the All in all. Too much emphasis upon stringencies within the Godhead and assumed godhood of Jesus may obscure the pure and simple worship of the living DIVINE which is all that is worthy of worthship/enjoyment.

In the fellowship of Christ we enjoy/partake and satisfy our souls in the living divine who is SPIRIT....the Only Deity BEING..who is 'God'.

Only the Father/Mother God is worthy of original, primal and highest worship from his creatures/creation/offspring. So...I will enjoy and surrender to the One Reality that IS....which Jesus demonstrated in his earthly sojourn among us...showing us the Way. It is fellowship with the living Divine, here...now and forever.
Father God is actively seeking/desiring such pure worship - for He is the Ancestor/Creator of ALL.


paul

[keypurr]

Freelight quote
I think much could be resolved as we spiritually worship the Only Deity BEING.....the one true God and Father of all. This seems consistent with what Christs will is for us. If we can ascertain, perceive and worship the eternal Father....in spirit and truth...nothing else is required/necessary. I worship the God who abides in the living Christ. I worship the God in all beings.....for God is the All in all. Too much emphasis upon stringencies within the Godhead and assumed godhood of Jesus may obscure the pure and simple worship of the living DIVINE which is all that is worthy of worthship/enjoyment.

AMEN:thumb: [B]

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by keypurr

Just a lesser God.When you stop and think about the fact that all power, in Heaven and in earth have been given into His Hands, how could He be 'lesser' to any god? He is God, since there is Only One. :thumb:

[godrulz]

Jesus and the Father are called the one God (Jehovah, Elohim, I AM, Adonai, Lord, etc.). There are not 2 gods. These names and titles refer to the one true God. The Father and the Son both have the same titles and attributes. The Trinity is the only way to reconcile this (your attempt results in polytheism, which is explicitly contrary to Scripture).

[keypurr]

If all power in heaven has been given to Jesus, them there had to be someone greater to give it to him.

Jesus does the will of his Father. He says his father is his God. In the book of John, Christ is called the word. When God spoke (word) it was done. Jesus made the world for his father. I think that Jesus is also the spirit.

The trinity theory does not hold water.

[Aimiel]

The Lord is That Spirit. He is God. They are One. The Trinity is but a small peek at Who God is. It is our understanding that gets in the way. God is not changed by it. He is still The Same, yesterday, today and forever.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by keypurr

If all power in heaven has been given to Jesus, them there had to be someone greater to give it to him.

Jesus does the will of his Father. He says his father is his God. In the book of John, Christ is called the word. When God spoke (word) it was done. Jesus made the world for his father. I think that Jesus is also the spirit.

The trinity theory does not hold water.

Father and the Son and the Spirit (and=kai= conjunction= join items) (Mt. 28:18-20) The Son is not the Spirit in many verses.

God is omnipotent= all powerful. Jesus has all power and authority, as does the Father because they are God (who alone has all power; if Jesus was created or a lesser god, He could not be omnipotent by definition).

As the God-man, He voluntarily laid aside the independent exercise of His omniscience and omnipotence (Phil. 2:5-11). It was veiled by His humanity while on earth. After the resurrection, He was restored to His former glory at the right hand of God (which in Jewish thought implies equality with God, not inferiority). He was then given all power and authority again (He voluntarily laid it aside to be the suffering Messiah).

[keypurr]

godrulz quote
As the God-man, He voluntarily laid aside the independent exercise of His omniscience and omnipotence (Phil. 2:5-11). It was veiled by His humanity while on earth. After the resurrection, He was restored to His former glory at the right hand of God (which in Jewish thought implies equality with God, not inferiority). He was then given all power and authority again (He voluntarily laid it aside to be the suffering Messiah).


He was then given all power and authority again

That is the point I am trying to make, who GAVE him power and authority??? The Father.

John 17:1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Notice [B] that they might know thee the only true God, AND Jesus Christ, whom tho has sent.


Romans 15:6That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[godrulz]

What is the nature of the Father and the Son?

What is the relationship of the Father to the Son?

The Father is not the Son (personal). The Father and the Son are both called the one true God (nature).

[keypurr]

Godrulz quote

What is the nature of the Father and the Son?

What is the relationship of the Father to the Son?

The Father is not the Son (personal). The Father and the Son are both called the one true God (nature).

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They are Gods together they created everything

The father loves his son and the son loves his father, just like as normal father and son. However the father is the supreme God and has given all to his son. Just like a normal loving father/son relationship. The spirit of love is shared by both.

Man is unable to ever fully understand God and his son. Our meaker brain can only think about what MIGHT be truth about him. These are my thoughts.

[godrulz]

Puleeze....God, not GodS.

[keypurr]

1 Corinthians 8
5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.


Another thing to consider is that the day when Christ returns is known ONLY BY THE FATHER.

With all this in mind, how can anyone say that Jesus is equal to his father????????? He doesn't even know when he is returning, only his father.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by keypurr

1 Corinthians 8
5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.


Another thing to consider is that the day when Christ returns is known ONLY BY THE FATHER.

With all this in mind, how can anyone say that Jesus is equal to his father????????? He doesn't even know when he is returning, only his father.

I Cor. 8 shows that there is one true God by nature. Other gods are false gods or so-called gods (cf. Gal. 4:8 '...by nature are not gods...').

Other Pauline verses show that the Father and Jesus are called the one God (see previous posts).

Mt. 24:36 The Father alone knows the hour. He will determine when this occurs (the Open Theism view might suggest that the Father had not determined before creation when it would be...He will wait until the Gospel is preached to as many as possible, the world will not self-destruct, the Church will grow, etc.).

When did Jesus speak this? He was a man on earth. Jesus is God. Can God be thirsty, tired, hungry, or could He die? In His humanity as the God-Man He could do all the above. He voluntarily did not use His omniscience, but depended on the Spirit as the God-Man. He knew what He learned (Lk. 2:52 "...grew in wisdom..."...in His preincarnate state He did not grow in wisdom..the 12 year old Jesus did not know as much as the eternal Christ at that moment) and what the Father chose to reveal to Him through prayer. Phil. 2:5-11 explains the incarnation/kenosis. He did not grasp at or cling to equality with God, because He was equal with God and remained so even when He took on the nature/form of a servant (parallel grammar to 'form/nature God). This emptying veiled His divine attributes and their use, but did not negate them. After the resurrection, He had His former glory at the right hand of God. At this point, He could know the hour of return or the Father still might not have determined it in His own mind (there is nothing explicit to say God is locked into a time. It may be more open-ended because He is not willing that any should perish, the reason for His delay= 2 Peter 3:9)

[keypurr]

Dear friend I know they are ONE GOD in purpose.

But the Father is God, Jesus is LORD GOD. I see no scripture to contradict this. The spirit of Love is the spirit of God. When he enters our temple (us) love radiates from within. Just like with Christ when his fathers spirit entered his temple.

[godrulz]

Mormons also believe they are one in purpose. This is true, but does not go far enough. The unity of the Father and Son goes beyond one purpose. It is an essential unity of nature/essence/substance (absolutely one God, period vs more than one God=Gods=one in purpose=NO!).

[raphe]

God transcends the frame of man and is not limited to one body. The Bible also says that we live and have our being inside of God, so saying that God cannot be anything is a bit inaccurate when considering who He is and who we are. He makes universes and life. We do not.
He has shown to man the three persons of His being in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and how they are for our benefit. Beyond denying what He has revealed, I can't find a reason to limit or doubt His Word of truth, by leaning to my own limited understanding.
From the begining, God refers to Himself as plural. (Genesis 1:26; 11:7)

Ac 17:28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

[godrulz]

God is omnipresent. Paul was quoting their Greek poets and then revealed who the unknown God really is. He built on their ideas as a point of reference. There poets were not revealers of biblical truth.

[geralduk]

ONE swallow does not make a summer they say.
Neither then does one VERSE of scripture 'PROVE' a doctrin or disprove it.

If you start wrong and build on a wrong foundation then no matter how 'logical' your reasoning and no matter how many verses you might bring to bare upon it you will come out wrong.
I would say to you that you START with the unbelief of the trinity and THEN seek the scripturtes to justyfy yourself.
The study of the scriptures to justyfy yourself will ALWAYS lead to error.
Moslems do the same thing.

The ERNEST is the TOKEN of a PROMISE a 'part payment as it were of that which is to come.

Abraham when he sought a BRIDE for his SON sent his servant to go "among his bretheren" and he gave him GIFTS to be given to the picked bride which was a token of his honourable intentions as it were but also an indication of that which was to come.

We are SEALED by that HOLY SPIRIT of God and are BORN again by the WORD of God and the SPIRIT of God.
That SAME HOLY SPIRIT of God LEADS us into all truth IF we LET Him.
Now they who are joined to the LORD are "of ONE SPIRIT"
seeing then that God has not many spirits but ONE.
Ther HOLY SPIRIT cannot be anything less tha God HIMSELF.
Seeing then that" they who are LED by the SPIRIT they are the SONS OF GOD"
Then it folows that the ERNEST that ahs been given to them that believe have the SAME SPIRIT that raised up Christ from the dead.
and seeing that HE SAID "No man taketh my life from Me but I lay it down that I might ttake it up again"
Then HE and the HOLY SPIRIT are ONE.
SEEING THAT IT WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT that raised Him up from the dead.
But hear this.
When Philip said to Him "show us the FATHER" He repleied "have(listen) I been with you so long philip ,,,,,?
Showing that the FATHER and the SON are ONE.
Now He also said "Only the FATHER and the SON have LIFE in themselves"
Our life is derived from God.
For"He is the author and the giver of life"
But the FATHER and the SON have LIFE in themselves. and si therefore NOT derived.
Now "God willing that none should perish but that all should come to the knowldge of the truth"
Sent Christ to die for ther sins of the world and so manifesting the truth.
For God spoke" in sundry times and indivers ways by the prophets but now has spoken to us by His Son"
has manifested that sublime truth concerning himself.
The FATHER spoke of His Son.
The SON speaks of the FATHER and reconciles all men to Him who believe.
and the HOLY SPIRIT "speaks not of Himself" and JESUS DIED and was BURIED.
BUT ON THE THIRD DAY ROSE AGAIN FROM THE DEAD.
and now LIVES .
Not by the 'life' of the flesh but of the SPIRIT.
Can then that HOLY SPIRIT of God which is that LIFE of God and which raised up Christ from the dead be anything LESS that God ?
of course not it is absurd to sugest that Gods LIFE can be anything less that God!
Now that "exceedeing greatness of His power that raised up Christ from the dead" dwelleth in us who belive. and the body is dead because of sin but is quickned by the HOLY SPIRIT.
Thus we who are crucyfied WITH Christ and are BURIED TOGTHER WITH CHRIST shall also be raised togther WITH CHRIST.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoveevr believth on Him shall not perish but have EVERLASTING life"
How cometh this life?
Through CHRIST.
Because" it is not longer I that liveth but CHRIST that liveth in me"
Thus I have eternal life through jesus CHRIST our Lord "according to the scriptures."
and this LIFE is the HOLY SPIRIT.
For" they who are joined to the LORD are of ONE Spirit"
No wonder then that HE PRAYED "that they might be one even as we are ONE"
nOW "THE BODY IS DEAD because of Sin" but is quickned (made alive) by the HOLY SPIRIT.
pAUL PRAYED (TO THEM that were saved) That "the eyes of thier understanding may be opened that thye kight comprhend with all the saints what is the exceeding greatness of His power towards us who believe,even the same mighty power that raised up CHRIST from the dead"
Thus a TRUE BIBLICAL BORNagain child of God CANNOT deny the LIFE that he has seeing that the SAME HOLY SPIRIT that raised Him up from the dead.
He was BORN not of the will of man nor of the will of the flesh nor of blood but of GOD(THE FATHER)
To whom he was RECONCILED TO by the SON!
Therefore though a child of God may not always be able to adequately atriculate the truth.
nevertheless that HOLY SPIRIT that has bene given as an ERNEST to him will not DENY it. but will witnes to his spirit the truth of it.
Thus a TRUE BORNagain child of God is a LIVING and amanifest WITNESS to the truth of the trinity of God and that in tjis case that the HOLY SPIRIT is that person of the GODHEAD of which there are three.
The FATHER,THE SON and the HOLY SPIRIT and these three are ONE.

[keypurr]

I started believing in a Trinty. Then I saw what I consider truth. The father is supreme and Christ is his son. I do not see equality in position. Isee one in purpose, because Jesus said I come to do the WILL OF MY FATHER. But he taught us to pray, "Our Father........"
Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, but his father gave it to him.

[godrulz]

God (Father) is also called King of kings and Lord of lords. There is only one God who is King of kings and Lord of lords.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by keypurr

I started believing in a Trinty. Then I saw what I consider truth. The father is supreme and Christ is his son. I do not see equality in position. Isee one in purpose, because Jesus said I come to do the WILL OF MY FATHER. But he taught us to pray, "Our Father........"
Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords, but his father gave it to him.

The FATHER spoke of the SON.
The SON reconciles all men to the FATHER.
The HOLY SPIRIT speaks not of Himself but brings to remeberence all things spoken by the Son(HEBREWS 1:1)

It is man then that is so self centred that he speaks only of himself.

But ALL the scriptures and not but one verse here or there SPEAK of the GOD the FATHER God the SON and GOD the HOLY SPIRIT.
AND THEY SPEAK with the ONE voice.

For He who spoke "in sundry times and in divers ways by the prophets" is the ONE whos "VOICE walked in the cool of the evening" in the garden of EDEN.
Is HE who also "In these last days has spoken to us by His SON"
and it is HE who speaketh not of Himself but of CHRIST and all things pertaining to Him.

Who then can divide God?
Or pin Him down on the board of mans interlect?
Can mans wisdom find Him out?
NO.
For only the SON knows the FATHER and to whom He showeth Him.
and so when Philip asked "show us the FATHER He replied(listen) "HAVE ...............................I.................. ..... been with you so long philip......... "and yet you do not know me?
Men measure God by thier own reasoning and thus fall into error.
But men knew not God by thier wisdom.
For what knoweth ther thinsg of man save the spirit that is in man?Likewise then what knoweth the things of God save the SPIRIT of God"?
How then can mortal man know God as HE IS save by the SPIRIT of God which is HIS? AND WHO THUS" KNOWETH THE MIND OF GOD"?
tHE UNITY of the GODHEAD and the ONE-NESS of thier being is to be comprehended if at all in ANY MEASURE by HIM who LEADS us into all truth.
and not by the folly of mans reasoning.
For we need the HOLY SPIRIT to "open the eyes of our understanding"
Not the lies of the devil.
Thus we come to the FATHER only by the SON. THROUGH the HOLY SPIRIT.
fOR WHO CAN DRAW NEAR TO GOD who is HOLY save through Him who is HOLY!?
AND IF he be not in us then HOW can we be made HOLY!? and "acceptable to God"
They then who deny the DIVINITY of JESUS deny then the DIVINITY of HIM who sent Him!
This is folly.
For if you make in your minds the man Christ jesus NOT divine(though it cannot be changed seeing it is the truth) then you must conclude that he was born of ADAM! and thus BORN in sin and shapen in iniquity"! as ALL men are.
This too is folly and contrary to ALL scripture.
But if you say He is THE Son of God the only BEGOTTEN Son of God,then how can you say HE IS NOT DIVINE!
Seeing that He would be as it were "bone of His bone and flesh of His flesh(i speak as in the natural knowing no other way to express it)
But if you say in contention that He was A son of God as some have so written and thus" have changed the truth into alie" then ye ars till in your sins!
For a son means there are MANY.
but you say there are "for now are we the children of God"
That scripture thought tur is taken out of CONTEXT and thus make it a PRETEXT for error.
For if any man be IN CHRIST he is a new creature and a true child of God.
But if the Lord was as we in this matter then how can I be as HE seeign that it is I whow as BORN in sin and shapen ininiquity and we have established HE WAS NOT!
Therefore seeing that eh is called the LAST Adam.
it is clear that even as the FIRST was CREATED by God and by CREATION was made "living soul"
The LAST was not created but BORN and thus was BEGOTTEN!
nOW YOU SAY then He is not equal with God seeign that HE WAS BORN as it were of God?
How then is it written that "In the beginnign was the WORD AND THE word was with God and the WORD (LISTEN) .......WAS GOD"
AND do we not read in that parable by which we can understand all parables "that the WORD is the SEED"?
hAVE YOU THEN FORGOTTEN that promised made in the garden that the SEED of the woman would bruise the serpents head and in doing so His heal would be bruised?
Thus God shoing that there would come a male child BORN of a woman but NOT of ADAMS seed would destroy the works of the devil.

But seeign that no MAN born of a woman is without a FATHER it is clear then in truth that GOD was His FATHER.
and thus being a the ONLY begotten SON of the FATHER..INHERITS ALL things that are HIS.
fOR WHAT CAME FIRST?
the SEED OR THE TREE from which it came ?
You say the tree?
But on which was the tree founded on?
if not the SEED?
IF THEN THE SEED which is GREATER?
tHAT WHICH IS LEAST?
OR THAT WHICH IS GREATER?
fOR IT IS CLEAR THAT THE SEED on the face of it is LESSER.
But is it not written that God has seated HIM ABOVE ALL?

Therefore your 'argument' that because the Lord MADE HIMSELF POOR that we might be made rich by His poverty is a false one.
For not only did HE SHOW himself WORTHY to be praised but mnaifestly as it is written and as it shall be EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tounge shall confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD to the glory of God the FATHER.
If then you say that He is still LEAST and therefore not equal THEN YOUR 'ARGUMENT HAS TO BETAKEN UP WITH GOD Himself.
Seeing that your 'LEAST' IS NOT IN LINE WITH His!
and have understood nothing.


For if the SEED is the WORD and the WORD was WITH God and the WORD ........WAS God"
then it is clear you must bring YOUR tthinking into line with the scriptures not the other way around.

[Lighthouse]

OMEGA should just end.

[Aimiel]

If God The Father and God The Son are not One and The Same, merely different aspects of The Same Being, then why would Jesus be promoted above all that is 'called' God?

I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.

The Father has chosen for Jesus to be exhalted, even above His Own Name, which no one knows. That's a pretty high place to be. Which one of us, who are fathers, would not want more and a higher seat for our own sons, and we're only human. God is A Better Father than we, and I'm sure that He wants Jesus to be above Himself. The Bible does say, though, that Jesus, once everything is submitted to Him, will then submit everything to The Father.

[keypurr]

Aimiel quote
The Father has chosen for Jesus to be exhalted, even above His Own Name
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I don't think so.

Christ said, "I go to my God and your God"

No equality there.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by keypurr

Aimiel quote
The Father has chosen for Jesus to be exhalted, even above His Own Name
-------------------------
I don't think so.

Christ said, "I go to my God and your God"

No equality there.

I have explained this before. He does not say I go to 'our' God. The Father is God. As a man (this was spoken during the incarnation and not His preexistence), what was Jesus supposed to call God? Monkey? The Father, Son, Spirit are all equally God, so correctly refer to each other as of the nature and name of God. Other verses do show the equality of the Father and Son (see my Deity of Christ thread).

[keypurr]

I have explained this before. He does not say I go to 'our' God. The Father is God. As a man (this was spoken during the incarnation and not His preexistence),

This is a presumption on your part. You cannot assume that his worldly life does not reflect his spiritual life. His teachings point to his father, not himself. I do not see verses that teach equality. And I don't assume it.

[Aimiel]

Aimiel quote:
"The Father has chosen for Jesus to be exhalted, even above His Own Name"

-------------------------
keypurr reply:
"I don't think so."

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Really? Is that because you're opposed to The Word of God, or just because your thoughts are higher than God's?

I will worship toward Thy Holy Temple, and praise Thy Name for Thy Lovingkindness and for Thy Truth: for Thou hast magnified Thy Word above all Thy Name.

Jesus is The Word of God, made Flesh.

And [i]The Word was made Flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His Glory, The Glory as of The Only Begotten of The Father,) full of Grace and Truth.

The Lord has magnified His Word (Jesus) above all of His Own Name. How much higher do you want Him to be, before you might consider Him Equal to God?

[keypurr]

Then why will Christ plead for our sins before the throne of his father? Why does he sit at the right side of his father. I do not interpert the verse as an elevation of Christ above the Father himself, just everything else. I do not consider him equal to his father, you do.

Why do you ask if I am opposed to the word of God, because I differ from you? I was been studying his word long before you were born, and I am still LEARNING. I try to prove all things and hold on to the truth. Tradition does not anchor itself to me.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by keypurr

Why do you ask if I am opposed to the word of God, because I differ from you?Because you can look at Scriptures, and read about Jesus being The Word, being with God and being God, and then say that He is not. Because you aren't receiving revelation from The Father. Because you're spreading 'another Gospel.' Because you're outside The Truth. Certainly not because you're any different than I. I've been in error on many things, and had Him straighten me out a time or two, until I learned some things I was doing wrong. I thank God for what He has shown me, but don't think any less of someone because they haven't seen it yet. I'm just trying to share what I have received, not suppress what another might currently believe.

[keypurr]

Aimiel you are misunderstanding me. I never said that Jesus was not a God. I stated and I will state again that his Father is greater. I do not believe they are equal. Christ is in subjection to his father. They have the same purpose, mind and love.

In my studies I see not equal trinity God. I see a loving God the father who sent his son to die for us so that we MIGHT have eternal life. I see his spirit working in people to make him known. I see the Lord Jesus sitting at the right hand of his father and angles worshiping him in his glory. Like a King and his Prince they sit side by side. The kingdom is given to the prince and I seek to be there.

[Aimiel]

You're not seeing very clearly, because The Bible says there is but One God. Saying that Jesus is not God, or saying that there are two gods is equally wrong. There is but One God, and He is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They agree, in One, because they are different 'aspects' or facets of The One True God. We aren't baptized in The Name of Jesus, for the sake of The Father, by The Holy Ghost; we are baptized in The Name (note singular) of The Father, Son and Holy Ghost. That is One Name for The One God. The Holy Ghost shows us The Father, in Jesus. Without Him you can't see Him.

[godrulz]

"A god" terminology is JW Watchtower-speak for Jesus as a created angel (Michael).

In Mormonism and keypurr's terms, it becomes a statement of polytheism (belief in more than one true God). Judeo-Christianity is strictly monotheistic (belief in one true God). The Trinity (triune Godhead) is strictly monotheistic: one eternal spirit nature/essence of God with 3 personal distinctions within the Godhead. This is the revelation of Scripture, even if your reasoning lags behind in understanding.

[keypurr]

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Where is the equality?

[godrulz]

Originally posted by keypurr

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Where is the equality?

Man is the head of a woman. Does this mean they are not equal as to their humanity?

The Father and Son are equal as to their Deity, but they have different roles and functions. The incarnation of Christ resulted in a subordinate position, while retaining the essential equality. The Father has the preeminent role in the Godhead, the Spirit is the servant, and the Son is also equally exalted.

The President is greater as to his position, but equal with the rest of us as to his common humanity.

Headship does not imply inferiority. Voluntary subordination or submission does not mean essential inferiority by nature. Distinguish nature/essence/substance in the Godhead from functional or positional relationships (different roles, but essential equality).

[keypurr]

John 14:23Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. 24He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.
25“These things I have spoken to you while being present with you. 26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. 27Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. 28You have heard Me say to you, ‘I am going away and coming back to you.’ If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, ‘I am going to the Father,’ for My Father is greater than I.
29“And now I have told you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe. 30I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me. 31But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

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Christ says "MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I"
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1 COR. 8:5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul says there is ONE GOD and ONE LORD
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Useing scriptures ONLY you cannot prove equality with the father and son. You hang on to traditions that are in error. Christ is King of Kings, Lord of Lords, but his father is greater.

[godrulz]

I have answered you before on Jn. 14:28. You did not attempt to refute me.

Christ said these words as a man. Again, it refers to His position on earth vs the Father in heaven. Hebrews even says He was lower than the angels as a man on earth, despite being their Creator and Lord before the incarnation. Hebrews also says that Jesus is BETTER than the angels as proof of His Deity. The two Greek words for 'better' and 'greater' distinguish His essential nature (better= equality with God maintained) from His position or role (greater= positional vs essence). This resolves many of the Arian (Christ as creature) proof texts.

I Cor. 8 affirms monotheism contrary to your polytheism ("Jesus is a god). The Trinity is a monotheistic doctrine when properly understood. Other Pauline and early church teaching affirms that the Father and Jesus were both called the one God (one essence of God with 3 personal distinctions). "Lord" also has the inherent idea of being God in the Jewish mindset (except when it obviously refers to a human lord/master).

[keypurr]

I have answered you before on Jn. 14:28. You did not attempt to refute me.

I gave it some thought.


Christ said these words as a man. Again, it refers to His position on earth vs the Father in heaven.

Conjecture on your part

Hebrews even says He was lower than the angels as a man on earth, despite being their Creator and Lord before the incarnation.

True

Hebrews also says that Jesus is BETTER than the angels as proof of His Deity. The two Greek words for 'better' and 'greater' distinguish His essential nature (better= equality with God maintained) from His position or role (greater= positional vs essence). This resolves many of the Arian (Christ as creature) proof texts.

He is a God

I Cor. 8 affirms monotheism contrary to your polytheism ("Jesus is a god). The Trinity is a monotheistic doctrine when properly understood.

I disagree

Scripture shows that the Father is greater than the son. You do not wish to accept that because of your traditions. The glory that Christ has was GIVEN to him by his Father. He was and is in complete subjection to his Father. We are in subjection to Christ and his father. For no one gets to the father except through Christ. The truth is in the Bible, not in the fables that the church has handed down over the ages.

[godrulz]

I believe the triune understanding based on the revelation in Scripture. It seems to be the only way to reconcile all the biblical evidence.

How can you disagree that Christ being 'a god' is not polytheism (belief in more than one true God)? The Father is God, and the Son is a god in your view=2 true gods.

It is indisputable that there is only one true God in Judeo-Christianity.

If you insist the Father alone is the true God, you should forfeit the right to call Christ a god. He is a mere creature, subordinate and inferior to the Father. This is heresy.

You seem to see that Christ is God in some sense, but apart from the Trinity, it is incoherent because of the pagan polytheism implication.

[keypurr]

godrulz, I believe that Christ is Lord God of everything and everybody except his father. I believe he has been given his Father's spirit and he shares that spirit with us. He is the Lord of my life and I know yours also. But his Father is greater, not equal. They are one in purpose, Christ was made in the IMAGE of his father. But he is in subjection to his father.

[godrulz]

I understand your ideas, but feel Scripture teaches otherwise. The Son may be subordinate positionally to the Father, but He is not inferior as to nature. In that aspect, He is equal. He is the exact representation of His very being, not just a similar image. My 'Deity of Christ' thread (not finished yet) gave many verses that would show His essential equality, while recognizing His limitation as a man on earth.

[keypurr]

I believe all power was given to him so we agree on the nature part. I will check out you new thread when it is available. Don't think that I do not appriciate you sharing your view point, I do. And I do know where you are coming from on the issue. I've been there.

Your friend in Christ, keypurr

[godrulz]

Originally posted by keypurr

I believe all power was given to him so we agree on the nature part. I will check out you new thread when it is available. Don't think that I do not appriciate you sharing your view point, I do. And I do know where you are coming from on the issue. I've been there.

Your friend in Christ, keypurr

God alone has all power (omnipotent). God alone has all authority. Only the one infinite God can be all powerful by definition. Creatures have limited power. The omnipotent God cannot give His all-power to a creature. This would make them equal with God. One must be all-powerful by nature/essence, not by delegation (impossible).

If we agreed on the nature part, you would admit the Son is equal to the Father. God is uncreated, so to have His nature would mean the Son has His uncreated nature. This would make Him God, not a finite god. The only way to reconcile the Father and Son having the same eternal nature, yet with personal distinction is the triune understanding of God.

[keypurr]

If we agreed on the nature part, you would admit the Son is equal to the Father.

Not so. I say he was given power by a higher being.

The omnipotent God cannot give His all-power to a creature.

God can do whatever he pleases. But I doubt if he would give all his power away.

This would make Him God, not a finite god. The only way to reconcile the Father and Son having the same eternal nature, yet with personal distinction is the triune understanding of God.

Not so, Christ is King, made so by his father. It doesn't dimish his glory, it just puts him lower than his father.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by keypurr

God can do whatever he pleases. But I doubt if he would give all his power away.To believe as you do would require calling Jesus a liar.

And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

[godrulz]

oops

[godrulz]

oops

[godrulz]

God is essentially omnipotent. Jesus is also essentially omnipotent. Omniscience, omnipotence, eternality, omnispresence are qualities belonging to the uncreated Creator. He cannot give them away or make a creature have them. A finite being cannot have infinite qualities. God has always been this way. No other creature shares these unique qualities or they would be God/equal to God.

The only sense Jesus was given these qualities was after being on earth as the God-man. In His pre-existence, He had all these God-attributes because He is God (not a god). In the incarnation, they were veiled by His humanity. After the resurrection, He returned to His former glory.

[keypurr]

Let us make man in OUR image, Genesis

Two beings, OUR image.

Food for thought

I suspect that Michael THE ONLY archangel is Christ.

He has been called Prince in Daniel, and a Prince becomes a King.

He held/holds a very high place with the Father. christ is coming with the voice of the archangel. It is possiable that they are one and the same. Chosen

Luke 23:35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by keypurr

Let us make man in OUR image, Genesis

Two beings, OUR image.

Food for thought

I suspect that Michael THE ONLY archangel is Christ.

He has been called Prince in Daniel, and a Prince becomes a King.

He held/holds a very high place with the Father. christ is coming with the voice of the archangel. It is possiable that they are one and the same. Chosen

Luke 23:35And the people stood beholding. And the rulers also with them derided him, saying, He saved others; let him save himself, if he be Christ, the chosen of God.

Let us make man in our image. There is one God with 3 personal distinctions (triune). Trinitarians use this verse (Gen.) to show that there are 3 in 1 and 1 in 3. God alone can create. He is the Creator. The Father, Son, Spirit are co-creators and one God.

Calling Jesus Michael makes Him a created being (Arianism). This is exactly what JWs teach. It is a blatant heresy and a counterfeit Christ. He is Creator, not creature. Jesus created angels and is not one Himself (Heb. 1; Col. 1:15 ff.).

Exegete the trumpet passage carefully (I Thess. 4:16). Is Jesus a trumpet? He comes with a loud command. The archangel shouts with His voice, not that Jesus is the archangel. When Jesus comes with an audible command, the trumpet will also sound and the archangel will shout. Jesus is not a trumpet nor an angel (cf. Revelation...only God, not angels are worshipped...Heb. 1...Jesus is worshipped, therefore He is God and not an angel).

cf. When the President enters the room, a trumpet may sound announcing his arrival and someone else may shout: "Here is the President. All rise!" The president is not a trumpet, nor is He the one shouting with a loud voice.

[Aimiel]

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

_ _ _


And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

Again, ALL Power, in Heaven and in earth has been given to Jesus. That Kingdom and Authority will never come to an end. Whether He was formerly A Son of God, and now is God or whether He has been God from the beginning: now and forevermore, He is God. He has ALL Power and Authority. What part of 'all' don't you understand?

[godrulz]

John 1:1 (grammar) and orthodoxy affirm that the Word who became flesh has always been the Almighty God. There is some speculation whether He has always been the Son. This may be a relationship revelation after creation. The important thing is that He has always been uncreated God and that there are personal distinctions within the one Godhead (without being separate gods).

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by godrulz

There is some speculation whether He has always been the Son. Not really.

Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

[keypurr]

Col 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,............

Col 1:15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Col 1:19For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Col2:1For I want you to know what a great conflict I have for you and those in Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh, 2that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and of Christ, 3in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

Col 3:1If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Col 3:17And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him

1 Thessalonians 1
1Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.2We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father,

2 Timothy 1
1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,
2To Timothy, a beloved son:
Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Peter 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:20He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

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I can give you more verses. God the father is supreme, God the son was chosen/appointed by his father. Therfore, the Father is greater. You can use big words and old fables but you can't change the truth as it is written in scripture. ONE GOD, ONE LORD

[keypurr]

Revelations 5:13And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

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Notice it says
to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

that means TWO to be worshiped. The father (God) and the Lamb (Christ)

[keypurr]

Revelations 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

LORD GOD ALMIGHTY AND THE LAMB

Implying TWO

[godrulz]

The Trinity also recognizes 2 (in fact, 3). You now have a problem because God alone is worthy of worship. I showed you these verses to prove that Jesus is God. The Bible is explicit that there is only one God. This one God alone is worshipped. Other gods are false gods. The Father and Jesus are worshipped in equality. The only way to reconcile all this is the triune understanding of God. It affirms there is one God, but also recognizes personal distinctions. Your view is polytheistic (a god), while Judeo-Christianity (including trinitarianism) is strictly monotheistic. Worse yet, your view makes Christ a subordinate creature (Arianism= you speculate he is the created being Michael) rather than Creator. This is a false, counterfeit Christ. Unless we bow to Him as the Almighty uncreated Creator, we cannot come to the Father in His name.

[keypurr]

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
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