can anyone please give me proof that Jesus Christ is real?

[c.moore]

I have been dealing with this mythology teacher , and interviewing him on my tv and radio programs, and he gave incredible answers and question I don`t know to deal with them and if I let them be broadcast to the unbelievers and my audience it might prove to people there never was a real Christ and bible and religion is just a copy of pagan worship, and ancient customs.

So can anyone here please give me science evidence or other evidence that Christ lived outside the use of the bible or an religious form of information??

Please it must be logical evidence where can be traced or shown from people who have nothing to do with christianity and are not on any side just facts , and proofs, where no one can not say it is made up and please no stories, Just facts outside of the bible of Christ existance.

maybe their is bones or dust , clothes, or personal writting of Christ that can proven today he lived out side the bible or religious system.

maybe from the Egysiann side we can have evidence of the miracles of Moses or maybe someone can prove a millian people have really walked through the desert, and there is bones and writting of this all happening outside of the bible because non believers and other people have wrote about these biblical story and facts themselves to be trace to the bible as true facts.
Even the proof of mary existance if there is any please give me any links on this or proofs outside of the religion , and the bible on this please, it is so important.


This teacher has said there is no proof and no religion or scholar, priest , pastor, christian teachers can prove this out side of the bible, without using christian resources.


God Bless

[c.moore]

This is a letter the teacher gave me so you can see where he is coming from, who also I am interviewing on tv and radio.

This is a loop that can go on forever and honestly it gets boring. I don't respect the bible, I don't see it as truth and I cannot be convinced, no matter how many scriptures I'm given that the bible is real because I know it is not.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

This scripture is nonsense, Christians use scripture all the time because they have nothing else, nothing real to stand on. Christians and Muslims say that anyone who doesn't believe in their lies are foolish. The only thing Christians see as proof and truth is biblical scripture, but the source, the bible, is false. The cross is foolishness and I'm not perishing. It is the Christian who reads this verse and don't even realize himself that is already perished, confused and frustrated. Scripture like the one presented keep you believing that anyone who talk sense to you is foolish. The moment you talk reality to a Christian they open the lie they call a mystery and start quoting scriptures that have nothing to do with reality. I'm going to start walking around with a Peter Pan script and start quoting out of it. Simple ideas like divinity etc. become the most complex for Christians to understand because all they know is biblical explanations and months can be spent on the definition on a simple word.
If you believe that I'm foolish for not believing in your Christ or cross etc., that's O.K. with me. The bible tells you to believe as a child, basically without a mind of your own. If I'm perceived as foolish to have my own mind and think as a mature man and not as a child believing in simple things like Santa Clause, Peter Pan and Jesus Christ, that's alright by me. "When I was a child I thought as a child and played as a child and did childish things, but when I became a man I put away my childish things." I don't believe in people walking on water, bringing the dead back to life, calling themselves the son of god and telling me I should give up my mind and take my power from myself and give my focus and money to some fabled so-called magician name Jesus Christ. These lies are for children. The believer accepts scriptures such as the ones presented as wisdom, not realizing that he is the one who foolishly accepts the cross, impossible miracles and the rest of the illogical lies as wisdom. A mature adult knows that such things like Christ, Peter Pan and the miracle of Santa Clause with rain dears flying through the air are nothing more than fantasy.
Please no more scriptures. Talk to me outside of that which has your mind blinded to reality. Do you really believe as a child in Moses and Jesus feeding thousands of people from one basket full of bread etc.? If so, I have a bridge called the Brooklyn Bridge I'd like to sell you.

[Daniel50]

Jesus Christ is very much alive and real.
No doubt.

I was born and brought In a high caste Hindu background I had vision of Jesus Christ.

[Aimiel]

C. Moore,

You have a choice. You can believe in Jesus, or you can ignore Him. He doesn't 'prove' Himself to outsiders. If He wanted to show Himself, so that people would believe in Him by sight, instead of by faith, He would have recorded His Ministry, and it would be broadcast on TV. He chose to live when there is no historical evidence (other than the words of men, written on paper) to 'prove' anything.

You have to believe in Him, in order to receive anything from Him. The proof that we have that He is Lord is the inward witness of The Holy Ghost, Who tells us that His Word is true. Those who don't hear Him, have refused Him, and will do so more and more, until their life is ended, and they are judged according to what they said. They obey thier lust. We must obey The Word of God.

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

[Nineveh]

Besides all of the eyewitness accounts, and the accuracy of the events? I don't think your teacher would believe even if a man was raised from the dead.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Besides all of the eyewitness accounts, and the accuracy of the events? I don't think your teacher would believe even if a man was raised from the dead. :darwinsm:

[Clete]

c. moore,

Please ignore Aimiel! Post four may be the most idiotic thing I've seen anyone write on this subject.

You have however gotten a hold a real super duper idiot with this mythology teacher! His conditions are unreasonable and probably intentionally so.

Any extrabiblical evidence that exists will certainly have been seized upon and promoted by the Christian community for obvious reasons and conversely any such evidence would tend to be supressed or ignored by the nonchristian community so to demand that any evidence be presented by non christian sources is rediculous!

However, the evidence that you present does not have to look like it came from a overtly Christian source. What I would do if I were you is to get Evidence that Demands a Verdict (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785243631?v=glance) by Josh McDowell. The information in it is presented in a way that is very easy to quote and use in debates where citing sources might be necessary. It is not necessary to tell this ding dong teaher that you got this information from a Christian book. All the evidence presented can stand totally on its own and is independantly verifiable without ever having to reference Mr. McDowell's volume.

Another outstanding resource is Bob Enyart's Mount Moriah Video (http://www.kgov.com/store/video.html#mountmoriah). It would give you tons of ammo but your silly teacher wouldn't give it the time of day because it's obviously produced by a Christian.

Anyway, I hope this helps!

God Bless!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Daniel50]

Millions and millions Of Followers of Jesus christ.
By faith you can see Him.

[csmuda]

The historians tell us there was a man called Jesus of Nazareth who was sentenced to death by the govenor of palestine; Pontias Pilot. Historians accept that much.

[Rolf Ernst]

C. Moore--Our job is to testify of His existence, to bear witness of Him.
There are secular writings from that period which refer to Him, Josephus being one of them.

The encyclopedia Britannica says much about Him. Check it out. They will also list sources, or a bibliography.

That being said, however, we MUST remember that those kinds of testimonies will be in vain. No one can truly know He lived--and still does live--until He is pleased to manifest Himself to that person, and He does so through the gospel; through the Scripture, and the preaching of it.

A person may research other sources concerning Him until they begin to believe that He did indeed walk upon the earth, but that level of belief is not the kind of acknowledgement that makes Him REAL to people. That comes only by the power of the Holy Spirit. So my answer to a person who wanted evidence would be, "My job as His ambassador is to declare Him to you. If He is pleased to make Himself known to you, He will do so through His Word and our witness concerning Him. If not, anything else will be in vain.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Please ignore Aimiel! Post four may be the most idiotic thing I've seen anyone write on this subject.What, specifically, if anything, did you find fault with in my post? Did you even read it? You provided references, but, beyond that, nothing. You didn't even consider the fact that these might not be readily available where Mr. Moore lives.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Aimiel

What, specifically, if anything, did you find fault with in my post? Did you even read it?

"He doesn't 'prove' Himself to outsiders. If He wanted to show Himself, so that people would believe in Him by sight, instead of by faith, He would have recorded His Ministry, and it would be broadcast on TV. He chose to live when there is no historical evidence (other than the words of men, written on paper) to 'prove' anything."

All of the above is 100% false, mindless and ignorant.

"You have to believe in Him, in order to receive anything from Him. The proof that we have that He is Lord is the inward witness of The Holy Ghost, Who tells us that His Word is true."

Complete, idiotic, unfalsifiable nonsense!

"We must obey The Word of God.'

True but contradictory to the rest of your post.

All in all your post was a complete waste of energy both to write and too read and now to copy and rebutt.
Why would you even say such things? If nothing else it displays colossal ignorance of the very faith which you claim allegience to. If you weren't aware that such resources existed you should have said that or else just kept quiet and let someone who knows what they're talking about speak up. As it is, you make yourself look silly and discredit the Christian faith all at the same time. It just doesn't make any sense.


You provided references, but, beyond that, nothing. You didn't even consider the fact that these might not be readily available where Mr. Moore lives.
Okay! No pot smoking while on TOL!!!
I gave internet links to purchase points for both resources, if he lives on this planet, FedEx can get them to him.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

C. Moore--Our job is to testify of His existence, to bear witness of Him.
There are secular writings from that period which refer to Him, Josephus being one of them.

The encyclopedia Britannica says much about Him. Check it out. They will also list sources, or a bibliography.

That being said, however, we MUST remember that those kinds of testimonies will be in vain. No one can truly know He lived--and still does live--until He is pleased to manifest Himself to that person, and He does so through the gospel; through the Scripture, and the preaching of it.

A person may research other sources concerning Him until they begin to believe that He did indeed walk upon the earth, but that level of belief is not the kind of acknowledgement that makes Him REAL to people. That comes only by the power of the Holy Spirit. So my answer to a person who wanted evidence would be, "My job as His ambassador is to declare Him to you. If He is pleased to make Himself known to you, He will do so through His Word and our witness concerning Him. If not, anything else will be in vain.

This is going to be off topic so I'll keep it breif but Rolf, this is rank herecy or it is a meaningless thing to say.

Do you believe that any such person exists that He would not be pleased to show Himslef too?

If you answered yes, you are a heretic.
If you answered no, then your above statement is meaningless.

Faith is based upon substantive evidence, nothing less. To suggest otherwise is intellectually (and spirtually for that matter) insulting and unbiblical.

Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.


Resting in Him,
Clete

[keypurr]

C. Moore,
I was like you at one time in my life. I was about 19-20, and I was so confused with life that I doubted that the Bible was God's word. However a person came into my life and pointed out a few things to me. He started with the Second Chapter of Daniel. It wasn't long before my line of reason was passed and I knew that there is a Living God who loves us. Who else can declare the end from the beginning. Once I accepted that the Bible was from God, then the studies got serious to find out more about him. Knowledge builds faith and wisdom. It will not come overnight. But the search is well worth the time to find him. You can find him in the Bible. You will find the book interesting, confusing, sometime the pages look blank because you do not understand what your reading. That is what we all go through. But just look at the world, you know that something greater than MAN has been at work. For instance, who do you know that can make dirt? Teach a bird to fly? There is a God, and he has reveled himself to us in his Bible.
Some folks have never searched in the right places to find him, I think your teacher is one of them. Believe me, he is real and he loves you.
Yours in Christ, Keypurr (Bob)

[Clete]

keyperr,

c. moore is a christian, has been for a long time.

[freelight]

Hi c.moore and all,


Whether Jesus actually lived on earth as a historical figure is certainly open for debate. I have read a few sources outside of christendom.....supposedley from the Talmud and Josephus,...but the latter I have heard is likely an interpolation added by a zealous christian. This remains to be a wonderful area of research.

Your teacher is correct in that christians primarily have their NT and their 'faith' in it and the Christ it represents (as their whle compendium of 'proof').
As far as Jesus being a living reality.....this appears to be an individual faith-experience. It does all fall back on belief/faith/trust.
Whether we can find objective substancial evidence that Jesus was a real historical figure...does not appear to effect faith in him....as he can still inspire as a 'mythological Christ'....on a subjective level. For some however.....historical proof is required.....to others it is not more important than the mythos of the Christ....that serves to inspire, illumine and teach allegorical truths.

One must also research whether he himself believes in Jesus because he was taught to as a cultural/religious conditioning - this also includes worship of scripture as being 'true'(which includes

[freelight]

Hi c.moore and all,


Whether Jesus actually lived on earth as a historical figure is certainly open for debate. I have read a few sources outside of christendom.....supposedley from the Talmud and Josephus,...but the latter I have heard is likely an interpolation added by a zealous christian. This remains to be a wonderful area of research.

Your teacher is correct in that christians primarily have their NT and their 'faith' in it and the Christ it represents (as their whole compendium of 'proof').
As far as Jesus being a living reality.....this appears to be an individual faith-experience. It does all fall back on belief/faith/trust.
Whether we can find objective substancial evidence that Jesus was a real historical figure...does not appear to effect faith in him....as he can still inspire as a 'mythological Christ'....on a subjective level. For some however.....historical proof is required.....to others it is not more important than the mythos of the Christ....that serves to inspire, illumine and teach allegorical truths.

One must also research whether he himself believes in Jesus because he was taught to as a cultural/religious conditioning - this also includes worship of scripture as being 'true'(which includes all its 'stories'). What if the meaning and value we place on these is self-imposed? Lots to explore here.

With faith there is only the substance of what is hoped for.....that being the evidence of a potential/actual reality that is invisible. Faith calls one to move beyond the sense(even intellectual) realm and seize/apprehend a spirit-reality/dimension of being. A person who says, 'Jesus is real to me' is speaking either by belief, experience or both...but its confirmation is always subjective based upon indidivual belief.

One may want to consider what has conditioned your teachers 'beliefs' and makes them different from your 'beliefs'(research the conditionings). Asides from any obejective historical evidence.....we are stark naked only with our beliefs/values/experience.



paul

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

"He doesn't 'prove' Himself to outsiders. If He wanted to show Himself, so that people would believe in Him by sight, instead of by faith, He would have recorded His Ministry, and it would be broadcast on TV. He chose to live when there is no historical evidence (other than the words of men, written on paper) to 'prove' anything."

All of the above is 100% false, mindless and ignorant.No, it isn't; your reply is, though. Why do you think that God doesn't 'show' Himself to the un-believers, so that they will know that He is God?"You have to believe in Him, in order to receive anything from Him. The proof that we have that He is Lord is the inward witness of The Holy Ghost, Who tells us that His Word is true."

Complete, idiotic, unfalsifiable nonsense!If it really were as 'idiotic' as you pretend, you might be able to prove that it is false. I can prove that it is, indeed, quite true:

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Will He give anything to someone who is not pleasing to Him? He rewards faith, not doubt.

As to the second part of your quote of me...

The fact that we (believers) believe that The Word of God is true, every bit of it, is proof enough for me that it takes The Holy Ghost, giving us the truth, down on the inside of us.

Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: and ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Are you getting the idea that The Holy Spirit is necessary, in order for anyone to hear and to believe The Truth? That is the case. We have a more sure word of prophecy than the eyewitnesses that heard The Voice from Heaven say, "This is My Beloved Son..." and there is no greater word than His.[/QUOTE]All in all your post was a complete waste of energy both to write and too read and now to copy and rebutt.[/QUOTE]Apparently you suffer from some type of disease which makes you tire too easily, and whine too much. Maybe you should be given a pacifier so that you can take a little 'nappy.'Why would you even say such things?Because it is truth.If nothing else it displays colossal ignorance of the very faith which you claim allegience to. I believe you've done a far greater job of doing this than anyone I've ever seen.If you weren't aware that such resources existed you should have said that or else just kept quiet and let someone who knows what they're talking about speak up.Go for it. I'm not saying you shouldn't give resources, but maybe asking for some content is a bit of a stretch for your minature grey matter.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by keypurr

Once I accepted that the Bible was from God, then the studies got serious to find out more about him. Knowledge builds faith and wisdom. It will not come overnight. But the search is well worth the time to find him. Bob,

Nice post. I like the attitude. I also like what John Osteen was fond of saying:

Great it is, to stand in youth, and dream a dream. But, greater still, to fight life through, and stand at the end and say, "The dream was true."

[Poly]

Originally posted by Aimiel


Are you getting the idea that The Holy Spirit is necessary, in order for anyone to hear and to believe The Truth? That is the case. We have a more sure word of prophecy than the eyewitnesses that heard The Voice from Heaven say, "This is My Beloved Son..." and there is no greater word than His
There's nothing wrong with physical evidence in proving God. You make it sound as though we can't have this evidence and also be led by the Holy Spirit. I think God likes the evidence that points to Him.

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

And the verse that was quoted earlier...
Hebrews 1:11
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

[Aimiel]

I don't think that there is one piece of conclusive emperical evidence which proves the existence of God. I believe He would have left at least one, if He wanted men to come to Him on that 'bunny-trail.' He chose faith. Those who take Him at His Word get all of Him. Those who don't, just don't get Him at all.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Aimiel
He chose faith. But not blind faith.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Knight

But not blind faith. What do you mean?

[Granite]

Moore,

There is no archeological evidence that I'm aware of "proving" Christ's existence. The jury's still out when it comes to the Jesus Box and Turin Shroud. Josephus's references to Jesus are suspected by some to be Christian additions. When the experts disagree, and they always disagree, you're right back where you started.

Proof is, of course, not necessary to be a Christian.

[Turbo]

granite1010, I know you have your disagreements with Enyart, but I highly recommend you watch his Mt. Moriah (http://www.kgov.com/store/video.html#mountmoriah) video. If you don't like it, you can get a refund.

[Crow]

c.moore,

Perhaps this (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/) might help a little.

[Mustard Seed]

The following was taken from a book that was written at the same time as the Bible on an entirely different continent. "Por la boca de doc o tres testigos se establecera todo asunto". You see c.moore the reason the mythology teacher can pull such stuff out of history is because even Adam and Eve were taught about Christ and his comming. The entire history of man has been filled to the brim with sects that at some point in their history have broken from the true religion or have borrowed much of their philosophies from it. Adam followed God and hence had to follow Christ. I know the majority of you have regected the following before and I in all honesty don't expect you to receive it with any more warmth. But following your request, c.moore, I am providing the following excerpt--

Which is to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that JESUS is the CHRIST, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment–seat of Christ.


TRANSLATED BY JOSEPH SMITH, JUN.

(Book of Mormon | Preface Title Page:2)


Just as I've pointed out in my conversations with ThePhy the acceptance of a certain 'reason' and 'logic' promoted by ThePhy and others as ruling against Mormonism brings all religions under condemnation. One of the previous posters was correct in the aprisal that the standards the mythology teacher set are to broad. I would hope some honest person would admit this not only on what has been said by the mythology teacher but by the likes of ThePhy.

[Mustard Seed]

Originally posted by Aimiel

What do you mean?

I mean not to steal anyones thunder but I think this may portray, more or less, what Knight appears to be trying to say to Aimiel with regard to the role of reason and argument in conjunction with faith.

Taken from

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/WhyApologetics.pdf


The English author,Austin Farrer put it this way:

"Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish. an answer to every man that asketh you a reason for
the hope that is in you.�


In other words, while reason and logic are not to trump faith to exercise, as it's called, 'blind faith' (I would dispute such as being able to be called faith) is not wise a wise course nor one, that I believe, can ever lead to salvation.

[Crow]

You might try these (http://www.carm.org/bible/extrabiblical_accounts.htm), c.moore.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Aimiel

What do you mean? Generally speaking... blind faith is for idiots!

God doesn't expect us to have blind faith.

He expects us to have faith based the evidence He has given us.

Aimiel.....
Does God's word (the Bible) play a vital role in our faith?

[Sozo]

:sozo: Announcing:

Battle Royale IX



Clete

vs

Aimiel




in

WHACK-AI-MIEL


:Clete:

:aimiel: :aimiel: :aimiel: :aimiel: :aimiel: :aimiel: :aimiel: :aimiel: :aimiel: :aimiel: :aimiel: :aimiel:

[Knight]

:chuckle:

[Crow]

:darwinsm:

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

c. moore,

Please ignore Aimiel! Post four may be the most idiotic thing I've seen anyone write on this subject.

You have however gotten a hold a real super duper idiot with this mythology teacher! His conditions are unreasonable and probably intentionally so.

Any extrabiblical evidence that exists will certainly have been seized upon and promoted by the Christian community for obvious reasons and conversely any such evidence would tend to be supressed or ignored by the nonchristian community so to demand that any evidence be presented by non christian sources is rediculous!

However, the evidence that you present does not have to look like it came from a overtly Christian source. What I would do if I were you is to get Evidence that Demands a Verdict (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0785243631?v=glance) by Josh McDowell. The information in it is presented in a way that is very easy to quote and use in debates where citing sources might be necessary. It is not necessary to tell this ding dong teaher that you got this information from a Christian book. All the evidence presented can stand totally on its own and is independantly verifiable without ever having to reference Mr. McDowell's volume.

Another outstanding resource is Bob Enyart's Mount Moriah Video (http://www.kgov.com/store/video.html#mountmoriah). It would give you tons of ammo but your silly teacher wouldn't give it the time of day because it's obviously produced by a Christian.

Anyway, I hope this helps!

God Bless!

Resting in Him,
Clete

I did get the book the case of Christ, I am still reading it.

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

C. Moore--Our job is to testify of His existence, to bear witness of Him.
There are secular writings from that period which refer to Him, Josephus being one of them.

The encyclopedia Britannica says much about Him. Check it out. They will also list sources, or a bibliography.

That being said, however, we MUST remember that those kinds of testimonies will be in vain. No one can truly know He lived--and still does live--until He is pleased to manifest Himself to that person, and He does so through the gospel; through the Scripture, and the preaching of it.

A person may research other sources concerning Him until they begin to believe that He did indeed walk upon the earth, but that level of belief is not the kind of acknowledgement that makes Him REAL to people. That comes only by the power of the Holy Spirit. So my answer to a person who wanted evidence would be, "My job as His ambassador is to declare Him to you. If He is pleased to make Himself known to you, He will do so through His Word and our witness concerning Him. If not, anything else will be in vain.

this is what he wrote about Josephus.

Another famous historian of the period was Flavius Josephus, who lived from around 37AD to 97 AD. (Look in the INDEX of The Christ Conspiracy and find the pages about Josephus’ works. See what she says). In his "Antiquities" he wrote two passages of interest, the first referring to James as "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." (20:9). The second reference is more explicit,


"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
“ Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.�
Our surviving sources for this passage are Greek manuscripts, the oldest of which dates from the 9th century. However there are citations in other writers of antiquity.
The first to cite this passage of Antiquities was Eusebius writing in about A.D. 324, who quotes the passage in essentially the same form. So it is clear that this passage existed in manuscripts of the Antiquities of the Jews at that time.
However, it is significant that Origen writing in about A.D. 240, fails to mention it, even though he does mention the less significant reference to Jesus as brother of James that occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (book 20, ch. 9). This has given rise to the suggestion that the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist in the earliest copies, or did not exist in that form.
Those historians disposed to reject the passage suggest that passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and that the thread of continuity is interrupted by this passage. The passage 3.3 also is supposed to fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus, according to the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, edited by K. H. Rengstorf, 2002. Consequently these historians dismiss the Testimonium as an interpolation. It is also argued that 'He was [the] Christ.' can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian.

the theologian Origen (about 185-254 AD) said that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (Contra Celsum, 1:47). Edwin M. Yamauchi, Ph.D., says of this text, " Today there's a remarkable consensus among both Jewish and Christian scholars (religious sources. Unreliable) that the passage as a whole is authentic

Another writer, from around 52 AD, was Thallus. None of his works are extant, but some fragments are preserved by other writers. One was Julius Africanus, who wrote about 221(unreliable. Julius Africanus is writing about what about Thallus said 200 years later. How can anyone trust that as proof. Where are these origional writings of Thallus. Thallus works have been tampered with by Christians. Unreliable). He says:

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Extant Writings, 18 in the Ante-Nicene Fathers) (Nowhere in the ancient world did anyone record an eclipse at this time except here and in the bible? Strange).

Africanus identifies this darkness (or eclipse) with the darkness surrounding Christ's death.

Pliny the Younger, a Roman author and administrator, wrote to the Emperor Trajan around 112 AD and said of Christians:

"They were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to do any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food-but food of an ordinary and innocent kind." (Letters, 10:96).
(This is propaganda rubbish that was written 112 years after by a so-called Christian writer).
This passage confirms that early Christians worshipped Christ as God, rather than having the "Godhood" of Christ added as legend at a later date.

The Talmud also records several references of Jesus. The ones of importance were compiled between 70 and 200 AD, during the so-called Tannatic Period. The most significant text is Sanhedrian 43a:

"One the eve of Passover Yeshu (Jesus) was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy. Any one who can say anything in his favor, let him come forward and plead on his behalf." But since nothing was brought forward in his favor he was hanged on the eve of the Passover!" (Babylonian Talmud) (This is not Jesus that they’re talking about, besides was Jesus nailed to a cross or hanged? If he lived and was hanged then the Bible has it wrong, because the Bible claims that he was nailed to the cross. “For the message of the CROSS is follishness to those who are perishing…�
It was a practice of the Jews as it was in that part of the world to have a man representing the man-god or a sheep sacrificed for the sins of the people at the end of the year or in times of great danger. They believed that their sins would perish with the dead animal or man. The name was usually Jeoud or Yeshu etc..
“Among the Semites of Western Asia the king, in a time of national danger, sometimes gave his own son to die as a sacrifice for the people. Thus Philo of Byblus, in his work on the Jews, says: ‘It was an ancient custom in a crisis of great danger that the ruler of a city or nation should give his beloved son to die for the whole people, as a ransom offered to the avenging demons; and the children thus offered were slain with mystic rites. So Cronus, whom the Phonenicians called Israel, being king of the land and having an only-begotten son called Jeoud (for in the Phoenician tongue Jeoud signifies “only begotten�), dressed him in royal robes and sacrificed him upon an alter in a time of war, when the country was in great danger from the enemy.’ When the king of Moab was besieged by the Israelites and hard beset, he took his eldest son, who should have reigned in his stead, and offered him for a burnt offering on the wall.�(James Frazer, The Golden Bough).

This passage confirms the crucifixion, the time it occurred, and the fact that Jesus was accused of sorcery in regards to His miracles.

Mara Bar-Serapion, a Syrian, wrote to his son Serapion sometime between the late first and early third century and said:

"What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samon gain from burning Pythagorans? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given." (British Museum, Syriac ms, add. 14, 658; cited in Habermas, 200).(nonsense)

Besides these manuscripts, there are many other hinted at by other manuscripts. The Acts of Pontius Pilate are refereed to by Justin Martyr in 150(150 is 150 years too late), and by Tertullian in 200. Justin Martyr wrote:

"And the _expression, 'They pierced my hands and my feet,' was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in his hands and feet. And after he was crucified, they cast lots upon his vesture, and they that crucified him parted it among them. And that these things did happen you can ascertain from the 'Acts' of Pontius Pilate." (First Apology, 35).

Obviously, Martyr would not have referred to a book that didn't exist, or to a passage that didn't exist in a book, since he was writing a defense of Christ.

Phlegon's Chronicles are also referred to. He is cited by Origen (4:455) as saying, "Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails." He also mentioned "the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquake which took place" (Origen, Contra Celsus, 14). Julius Africanus confirms the same passages.(These people lived too late to have any first hand knowledge of a Jesus, therefore not credible).

The resulting, non-biblical passages show us the following points, as summarized by Norman Geisler:

"(1) Jesus was from Nazareth; (2) he lived a wise and virtuous life; (3) he was crucified in Palestine under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king; (4) he was believed by his disciples to have been raised from the dead three days later; (5) his enemies acknowledged that he performed unusual feats they called 'sorcery'; (6) his small band of disciples multiplied rapidly, spreading even as far as Rome; (7) his disciples denied polytheism, lived moral lives, and worshipped Christ as Divine. This picture confirms the view of Christ presented in the New Testament Gospels." (Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics). (These a are all typical Cristian arguments. Unreal).

[c.moore]

Originally posted by freelight

Hi c.moore and all,


Whether Jesus actually lived on earth as a historical figure is certainly open for debate. I have read a few sources outside of christendom.....supposedley from the Talmud and Josephus,...but the latter I have heard is likely an interpolation added by a zealous christian. This remains to be a wonderful area of research.

Your teacher is correct in that christians primarily have their NT and their 'faith' in it and the Christ it represents (as their whole compendium of 'proof').
As far as Jesus being a living reality.....this appears to be an individual faith-experience. It does all fall back on belief/faith/trust.
Whether we can find objective substancial evidence that Jesus was a real historical figure...does not appear to effect faith in him....as he can still inspire as a 'mythological Christ'....on a subjective level. For some however.....historical proof is required.....to others it is not more important than the mythos of the Christ....that serves to inspire, illumine and teach allegorical truths.

One must also research whether he himself believes in Jesus because he was taught to as a cultural/religious conditioning - this also includes worship of scripture as being 'true'(which includes all its 'stories'). What if the meaning and value we place on these is self-imposed? Lots to explore here.

With faith there is only the substance of what is hoped for.....that being the evidence of a potential/actual reality that is invisible. Faith calls one to move beyond the sense(even intellectual) realm and seize/apprehend a spirit-reality/dimension of being. A person who says, 'Jesus is real to me' is speaking either by belief, experience or both...but its confirmation is always subjective based upon indidivual belief.

One may want to consider what has conditioned your teachers 'beliefs' and makes them different from your 'beliefs'(research the conditionings). Asides from any obejective historical evidence.....we are stark naked only with our beliefs/values/experience.



paul

This is the problem he had no belief system.

he only goes by the knowing system and facts and proofs.

he mention about knowing is better than believing, and if you know something there is no need for believing.

what do you think about that?

[c.moore]

Originally posted by granite1010

Moore,

There is no archeological evidence that I'm aware of "proving" Christ's existence. The jury's still out when it comes to the Jesus Box and Turin Shroud. Josephus's references to Jesus are suspected by some to be Christian additions. When the experts disagree, and they always disagree, you're right back where you started.

Proof is, of course, not necessary to be a Christian.


No archeological evidence ???

so the teacher is again correct??

No historic history proving he existed either??

Aagin the teacher is correct???

What up here???:confused: :think:

[Mustard Seed]

Originally posted by c.moore

This is the problem he had no belief system.

he only goes by the knowing system and facts and proofs.

he mention about knowing is better than believing, and if you know something there is no need for believing.

what do you think about that?


Everyone has a belief system whether or not they conceed such. The very foundations of any real applications of science or reason demands assumptions be made concerning the systems which are being analyzed.

Every scientist, philosopher etc. that makes any progress does so by making many assumptions about the system they are in. The primary difference I see is that those in the realm of recognized faith generaly are more apt to recognize the dogmas on which their beliefs rest. Dogmas are intrinsic to every system of analyzing the world even if it claims the objectivity some of those systems do.

[Mustard Seed]

Originally posted by c.moore

No archeological evidence ???

so the teacher is again correct??

No historic history proving he existed either??

Aagin the teacher is correct???

What up here???:confused: :think:

There is evidence (refering here to emperical evidence, that which can be measured in a scientific materical way) that Christ lived. However such 'evidence' for the truthfulness of his claims on the playing field that the mythology teacher is suggesting doesn't exist. That's part of the problem is that the 'teacher' is basing their conclusions only on the empirical/quantifiable evidence. There is not (to my knowledge anyway) any such evidence that can be presented. You cannot have a test for the existence of God that will ever stand up to those standards because God's nature surpasses that which is quantifiable and conceivable on the level we are at in our present state.

God can talk to us but there is no way that we can prove that such has occured to others (at least not presently) any and all points we try and present as evidence can be dismissed on the basis that the person we are trying to convince simply will not see any of it as evidence of what we propose.

[Mustard Seed]

There is no PROOF for global warming.

There is no PROOF that DDT was ever thinning eggshells.

c.moore most things do not have proof. Proof is relative to the individual receiving the information. If you have been convinced of something, regardless of whether or not it is true, you have had it, for the time, proven to you. We decide what is and is not proof for us. If you have some one who is convinced that they are, like in the popular movie the Matrix, traped inside some all encompasing computer simulation, no amount of proof is going to disuade them from their belief if they are not going to allow such.

[Clete]

c. moore,

A Case for Christ is an excellent book. Good choice!

Another EXCELLENT book that will not give physical evidence but will equip you with outstanding phylosophical and logical arguments for the existence of God is "Can Man Live Without God" by Ravi Zacharias. In fact pretty much everything he's ever written would be a great resource.

Another source for terrific arguments for the existence of God is right here on TOL. The Battle Royale between Bob Enyart and Zakath is simply the best debate on the issue I have ever seen, and I haven't even read it all!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Aimiel,

As a corollary to the question asked by Knight allow me to ask you a question that I asked you almost a year ago.

If I told you that I got a visit in the spirit from Jesus Himself and He told me that by His sovereign right, He has decided to change the rules so that now everything about the gospel is the same except that from now on, no one will be saved except on every third Thursday of the month and only after 7:03pm local time.

How would you know I was lying?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[firechyld]

c.moore, the Mythological Jesus vs Historical Jesus debate is a huge one that's been going on for a long time. There's no easy answer.

In short... no, there is no empirical evidence of the existence of a historical Jesus. It cannot (at this time) be proven that the man ever lived, much less performed the deeds credited to him.

That said, there is also not enough evidence or even lack thereof to definitely state that the historical Jesus didn't exist. At this point in time, the jury is still out, and will remain out until such time as proof for either stance is discovered.

The question isn't really "Can we prove that Jesus existed?"... it's "Does the fact that we can't prove his existence matter to modern Christians?" Does it alter your beliefs that you can't point to archaeological evidence, or are you simply looking for something to convert another individual? Bear in mind that proof of historical Jesus, were it to be found, doesn't necessarily prove that he was any of the things Christians believe him to be.

As for Moses, there's even less evidence of him. The Egyptians have no record of anything even vaguely resembling the Exodus. *shrug* Make of that what you will...

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Mustard Seed

In other words, while reason and logic are not to trump faith to exercise, as it's called, 'blind faith' (I would dispute such as being able to be called faith) is not wise a wise course nor one, that I believe, can ever lead to salvation. I don't believe that I have, or was promoting such 'blind' faith.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Knight

Generally speaking... blind faith is for idiots!Agreed.God doesn't expect us to have blind faith.I believe that's a given.He expects us to have faith based the evidence He has given us.This is where you have to admit that either you believe or you don't. Those who don't accept that The Word of God is inspired by God, true or relevant don't 'see' the evidence that weighs so heavily upon our hearts.Does God's word (the Bible) play a vital role in our faith? Of course it does, it is the foundation. We take Him at His Word, and trust that He is True, though every man who ever lived (except, of course, Jesus) might have been a liar.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Aimiel
Of course it does, it is the foundation. We take Him at His Word, and trust that He is True, though every man who ever lived (except, of course, Jesus) might have been a liar. OK... well I guess I misunderstood your earlier point.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

If I told you that I got a visit in the spirit from Jesus Himself and He told me that by His sovereign right, He has decided to change the rules so that now everything about the gospel is the same except that from now on, no one will be saved except on every third Thursday of the month and only after 7:03pm local time.

How would you know I was lying?The same way I refuted your other 'points' in this thread, The Word of God, which doesn't change, and will abide forever: He said that He watches over His Word to perform it, and that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved, not whosoever believes upon certain days ONLY. Also, I would suggest that you need to exercise better discernment, because the spirit that spoke to you was an evil spirit, pretending to be The Lord.

[Rolf Ernst]

Clete--your post #13: I am sorry about your not understanding straight Bible doctrine, Clete. I know it must be difficult to always be running into verses which do not fit in with your misconceptions of Scripture; nevertheless you can't make those troublesome verses disappear. It is forever established in heaven that "no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Mt.11:27

There are many other texts which teach the same thing both in the Old Testament and the New Testament, but I know it would be fruitless to spend more time with you. People of the "openess" persuasion are notorious for ignoring verses. They are content to hold a view of scripture which leaves many texts in tension with one another. We Reformed people find that unacceptable. Thanks for calling me a heretic. I would not want to be identified with your doctrines.

[Aimiel]

Amen Rolf.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Clete--your post #13: I am sorry about your not understanding straight Bible doctrine, Clete. I know it must be difficult to always be running into verses which do not fit in with your misconceptions of Scripture; nevertheless you can't make those troublesome verses disappear. It is forever established in heaven that "no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Mt.11:27

There are many other texts which teach the same thing both in the Old Testament and the New Testament, but I know it would be fruitless to spend more time with you. People of the "openess" persuasion are notorious for ignoring verses. They are content to hold a view of scripture which leaves many texts in tension with one another. We Reformed people find that unacceptable. Thanks for calling me a heretic. I would not want to be identified with your doctrines.

Both you and Aimiel have no business on a board where serious discussions of theology take place. You are not only both intellectually dishonest and incapable of reading but are also a straight up liar.

The only reason to react this way to what I said is because you know you have no hope in defeating me in an honest debate. Further, I have never, nor will I ever intentionally ignore any Scripture nor do you have any evidence to the contrary, you are a liar and a hypocrite. For it is you who profane God with your disgusting theology that makes God the author of evil, and more than that you are proud of it! While, all the while burying your head in the sand and ignoring verse after verse after verse that shows the contrary.

Further still, I never called you a heretic. I was very careful to word my post in such a way as to encourage you to clarify yourself but you apparently can't read well enough to have detected that. I said IF and THEN and posted 2 possibilities. I of course can assume which you chose but that is beside the point. If you were half a man you would simply have answered the question and defended your position. As it is, you have proven yourself to be a small minded child that should spend more time in Sunday School class being read to about Noah’s ark and watching Veggi Tale cartoons.
If you decide to grow up and act your age, I'd still be interested to know whether you think any such person exists that Jesus does not want to reveal himself to? And why you would not consider the Bible itself as His having revealed Himself to everyone, or at least to everyone who can either read or be read to?

And Aimiel, what the hell are you doing agreeing with Rolf when you don't even believe that the Bible is the standard of truth? What would you care if I ignored Bible verses or not? Shouldn't I follow the leading of the Spirit within? As far as you are concerned if it feels right it is right. That makes me want to puke!

Resting in Him,
:Clete:

[Knight]

:Clete:

[Turbo]

Originally posted by firechyld

The Egyptians have no record of anything even vaguely resembling the Exodus. *shrug* Make of that what you will... I take it you've never heard of the Ipuwer papyrus (http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/ipuwer.htm). Even the unbeliever who wrote the preface on the page linked cannot deny the similarities between this Egyptian account and the Exodus account:
Fringe historians often compare the content of this papyrus with Exodus, the second book of the Bible. Similarities between Egyptian texts and the Bible are easily found, and it is reasonable to assume Egyptian influence on the Hebrews, given their at times close contacts. But to conclude from such parallelisms that the Ipuwer Papyrus describes Egypt at the time of the Exodus, requires a leap of faith not everybody is willing to make.
I submit that this author is the one making a great leap of faith.




Comparing the two accounts:
The Ten Plagues - Live From Egypt (http://www.ohr.org.il/yhiy/article.php/838)

[add yasaf]

c. moore you can look here for quotes from secular authors - http://www.myfortress.org/historians.html


and also get the book - a Biblical History of Israel, found here - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0664220908/102-4581760-7637750?v=glance

[ButcherABC]

Originally posted by Turbo

I take it you've never heard of the Ipuwer papyrus (http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/texts/ipuwer.htm). Even the unbeliever who wrote the preface on the page linked cannot deny the similarities between this Egyptian account and the Exodus account:



Before I read this document, I want an answer to the following. Do you judge this papyrus as similar to the Exodus by the same standard Christians use when they deny similarities between Christian beliefs and those of other religions of the time, and the same standard by which they deny similarities between the tale of Noah and the Epic of Gilgamesh? IOW, are you using a double standard in claiming this papyrus as evidence for the Exodus?

[Crow]

Originally posted by Knight

:Clete:

Suits him, doesn't it?

Maybe it was predestined! :bannana:

wait a minute......:noid:

predestined? :think:

.......:shocked:

[Daniel50]

Originally posted by Crow

Suits him, doesn't it?

Maybe it was predestined! :bannana:

wait a minute......:noid:

predestined? :think:

.......:shocked:



:jump:

[c.moore]

firechyld

In short... no, there is no empirical evidence of the existence of a historical Jesus. It cannot (at this time) be proven that the man ever lived, much less performed the deeds credited to him.

That said, there is also not enough evidence or even lack thereof to definitely state that the historical Jesus didn't exist. At this point in time, the jury is still out, and will remain out until such time as proof for either stance is discovered.



Quote :

So I guess my question is answer , the unbelievers, and mythology teacher has a greater range of evidence that Jesus never existed, and can be a fairy tale or just made up from other pagan religion and pre ancient time story`s which was never true including the story of Adam and Eve.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by c.moore

So I guess my question is answer , the unbelievers, and mythology teacher has a greater range of evidence that Jesus never existed, and can be a fairy tale or just made up from other pagan religion and pre ancient time story`s which was never true including the story of Adam and Eve. Why are you ignoring the evidence presented on this thread? Just because firechyld says there is no evidence doesn't make it so.

[Mustard Seed]

c.moore

A way of looking at the whole thing is similar to what the title of one of the books that was mentioned in this thread implies (I don't exactly remeber the title off hand but it has something to do with demanding an answer/verdict) I've mentioned something on the same not in one of my recent threads. If Jesus Christ and his story, or the Bible in general, were not real then there's a TON of explaining to be done for the impact etc. I likened it to an example given by Hugh Nibley in one of his books. He talks about the recent controversy over William Shakespear and how many are questioning his legitimacy as the author of all those works. Now whether it was one man that wrote those plays sonnets etc or if it was a group of men it was still an INCREDIBLE WORK. Essentially if it was miraculous and unbelievable for him to have fashioned those works then what makes it any less unbelievable that a seceret society of intellects that lived in the same area did it? Either scenerio you have to deal with that which was produced. Regardless of the source of the Bible or it's stories those who call it merely a fabel have so much explaining to do that it may actually complicate, and render harder to explain, the existance of the Bible or the history of Jesus Christ.

[c.moore]

So the facts is still there is no real logical or historical proof out side the bible??

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Turbo

Why are you ignoring the evidence presented on this thread? Just because firechyld says there is no evidence doesn't make it so.

If there was evidence out side of the bible I could go and collect the million dollar question, and give the half to the church.

[Clete]

Originally posted by c.moore

If there was evidence out side of the bible I could go and collect the million dollar question, and give the half to the church.

There is evidence! Tons of it! Whole mountains of it! That's what I and others here have been trying to tell you! Do you want it or not? Why ask for the info if your going to ignore it when it handed to you on a silver platter? I don't get it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[firechyld]

Turbo

I take it you've never heard of the Ipuwer papyrus. Even the unbeliever who wrote the preface on the page linked cannot deny the similarities between this Egyptian account and the Exodus account:

I have actually heard of that papyrus... one of my lecturers is a renowned expert in papyri reading, so my religious studies course last semester was a little heavy on that area. :)

I left it out because of the debate still raging in the academic community regarding it, which wasn't entirely fair of me... it is technically evidence, regarless of controversy.

I'll revise my statement to "next to nothing, excluding the Ipuwer papyrus." ;)

c.moore...

So I guess my question is answer , the unbelievers, and mythology teacher has a greater range of evidence that Jesus never existed, and can be a fairy tale or just made up from other pagan religion and pre ancient

Well, technically absence of evidence is not evidence of absence...

That said, does it really matter? If you manage to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus existed, the question becomes whether or not he was actually the being Christians believe him to be.

*shrug* Short of being there, you can't prove everything about Jesus, if he in fact existed. And if there's even one thing that you cannot prove, that's the thing that you'll be asked to prove.

Stop stressing over it.

[c.moore]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

There is evidence! Tons of it! Whole mountains of it! That's what I and others here have been trying to tell you! Do you want it or not? Why ask for the info if your going to ignore it when it handed to you on a silver platter? I don't get it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Ok , I pass them onto the teacher all these evidence.

So tell me again where is the proof , maybe i can see it in the Egysian culture as well , and all the story of Moses , and evidence that so many people travel through the desert, and there is tons of historcal facts out side of the bible , or even abdout Adam and eve existance, and about the characters in the bible as Paul, and Peter , and Mary.

Maybe you have the eveidence of the bone or dust of Virgin Mary sence she was not resurrected.

[c.moore]

firechyld


It is like trying to find my roots.

I must accept the fact of slavery, and maybe I must understand the fact where slavery came from, and as doing this I found alot of slavery ,and wars, massave murderings and brutal killings and mostly with religions, and christians.

It even shown me the warrior attitiude and back gound of christianity and other religions, wowww, i wounder where was the love.

[c.moore]

The pagan fertility goddess Oestre was linked to the resurrection, and her feast day became known as Easter.

Does anyone know if this is where the people say the Jesus story began with the goddess, including the death and burial , resurrection ???

This teacher also said the stars have many storys and many of the story`s in the bible came from the stars worshipers or is astrological .

[c.moore]

The teacher said many christian try to use evidence of a Jewish man called Josephus.

the teacher responce and research on this was this:

Another famous historian of the period was Flavius Josephus, who lived from around 37AD to 97 AD. (Look in the INDEX of The Christ Conspiracy and find the pages about Josephus’ works. See what she says). In his "Antiquities" he wrote two passages of interest, the first referring to James as "the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." (20:9). The second reference is more explicit,


"At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. His conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. But those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion, and that he was alive; accordingly he was perhaps the Messiah, concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."
“ Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.�
Our surviving sources for this passage are Greek manuscripts, the oldest of which dates from the 9th century. However there are citations in other writers of antiquity.
The first to cite this passage of Antiquities was Eusebius writing in about A.D. 324, who quotes the passage in essentially the same form. So it is clear that this passage existed in manuscripts of the Antiquities of the Jews at that time.
However, it is significant that Origen writing in about A.D. 240, fails to mention it, even though he does mention the less significant reference to Jesus as brother of James that occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (book 20, ch. 9). This has given rise to the suggestion that the Testimonium Flavianum did not exist in the earliest copies, or did not exist in that form.
Those historians disposed to reject the passage suggest that passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and that the thread of continuity is interrupted by this passage. The passage 3.3 also is supposed to fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus, according to the Complete Concordance to Flavius Josephus, edited by K. H. Rengstorf, 2002. Consequently these historians dismiss the Testimonium as an interpolation. It is also argued that 'He was [the] Christ.' can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian.

the theologian Origen (about 185-254 AD) said that Josephus did not believe Jesus was the Messiah (Contra Celsum, 1:47). Edwin M. Yamauchi, Ph.D., says of this text, " Today there's a remarkable consensus among both Jewish and Christian scholars (religious sources. Unreliable) that the passage as a whole is authentic

Another writer, from around 52 AD, was Thallus. None of his works are extant, but some fragments are preserved by other writers. One was Julius Africanus, who wrote about 221(unreliable. Julius Africanus is writing about what about Thallus said 200 years later. How can anyone trust that as proof. Where are these origional writings of Thallus. Thallus works have been tampered with by Christians. Unreliable). He says:

"On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun." (Extant Writings, 18 in the Ante-Nicene Fathers) (Nowhere in the ancient world did anyone record an eclipse at this time except here and in the bible? Strange).

[Clete]

Originally posted by c.moore

Ok , I pass them onto the teacher all these evidence.

So tell me again where is the proof, maybe I can see it in the Egyptian culture as well, and all the story of Moses, and evidence that so many people travel through the desert, and there is tons of historical facts out side of the bible, or even about Adam and Eve existence, and about the characters in the bible as Paul, and Peter, and Mary.

Maybe you have the evidence of the bone or dust of Virgin Mary sense she was not resurrected.

Look, I don't get you. In McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" he goes on for some 17 pages specifically about the historicity of Jesus Christ alone. The book itself is 687 pages of almost entirely historical evidence pertaining to one aspect of Christianity or another, most of which is secular in nature. And that's only the first resource I recommended to you.
I'm beginning to wonder whether this is idiot teacher of yours is beginning to get to you. If so, I recommend that you spend less energy on the emotional aspects of your relationship with God and do some hard core intellectual home work. There is simply no reason why any Christian should be afraid of history. Indeed, our faith is based in history!

1Cr 15: 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable.

If Jesus didn't exist, then he should as heck didn't rise from the dead!

Now, I've given you the tools, it's up to you to do the work. I'm not here to spoon feed you the arguments. Besides, if you don't know them already, you need to learn them for yourself. Your faith is on shaky ground otherwise.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Mustard Seed]

c.moore,

I was wondering if you could suggest a book to your 'teacher'. It's called "Abraham in Egypt" by Hugh Nibley. I am curious to see what his reaction would be to it. Oh and firechyld might be interested in it also as it talks about papyrus.

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by ButcherABC

Before I read this document, I want an answer to the following. Do you judge this papyrus as similar to the Exodus by the same standard Christians use when they deny similarities between Christian beliefs and those of other religions of the time, and the same standard by which they deny similarities between the tale of Noah and the Epic of Gilgamesh? IOW, are you using a double standard in claiming this papyrus as evidence for the Exodus?

I'm not aware of anyone that denies the similarities between the Biblical flood account and the mythical Gilgamesh story. Sure, there are similarities -- the best way to tell a lie is to mix a little truth in with it. Hence the similarities.

[Rolf Ernst]

Continue with your ad hominem attacks, Clete. It is easier for you to do than respond to Scripture proofs.

I was not intending to address you personally. I did not call your name.
I know your penchant for acusing others rather than dealing with scripture. If I had known you would respond or that you were active on the thread, I would have used my time in a way that did not welcome your comments. Continue your rant. I will not be listening.

[Granite]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

I'm not aware of anyone that denies the similarities between the Biblical flood account and the mythical Gilgamesh story. Sure, there are similarities -- the best way to tell a lie is to mix a little truth in with it. Hence the similarities.

Are you saying the Babylonians were deliberately lying?

[brother Willi]

c moore


PLEASE ask your teacher to prove his beliefs.


you have all the info needed to prove to any thinking peron that Jesus really existed.
do not let your teacher think his words have meaning.
anyone with a mind can decide the truth for themselves

[temple2006]

cmoore...Are you asking if the historical Jesus existed? The historian Josephus mentions him and it is accepted that such a man existed.

[firechyld]

It is like trying to find my roots.


That I can respect. :) Good luck.

I heartily recommend that anyone with an interest in Christianity, be it intellectual or devotional, read Jospehus. It offers an interesting perspective on the four gospels, particularly as an example of war time writings.

As for c.moore's question about the similarities between the story of Jesus and other religions, there's an entire field of study devoted to comparitive theologies. The similarities between various religions cannot be denied, and more appear as one studies further.

*shrug*

I, of course, am not going to attempt to offer any explanation for this. But it's a very interesting topic.

[brother Willi]

ask your teacher

if the original "PLACE ANY DOCUMENT HERE" does not exist, does this prove it never did?

[Clete]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Continue with your ad hominem attacks, Clete. It is easier for you to do than respond to Scripture proofs.

I was not intending to address you personally. I did not call your name.
I know your penchant for accusing others rather than dealing with scripture. If I had known you would respond or that you were active on the thread, I would have used my time in a way that did not welcome your comments. Continue your rant. I will not be listening.

What are you talking about? Do you even know what ad hominem means?
You directly addressed me in your last mindless post and quoted a Scripture that is ripped out of its context (as usual) and then proceeded to attack me for no reason whatsoever! After defending myself I give you yet another opportunity to act your age and respond to the original question and this is the nonsense I get in return. It would be funny if it weren't so ridiculous!

I ask you again, and we'll see if it goes a third time without even being acknowledged and being a valid question much less actually being answered.

Does any such person exist, too whom God does not wish to reveal Himself? And why isn't the Bible itself that revelation to anyone who can read or be read too?

Now can you answer the question or can't you?
Ignore me if you like; the point is that others will not.
You can be all angry at me or even hate my guts if you want, I don't frankly care. As long as you spew out heretical nonsense, you can expect me to call you on it. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that if you had had an ounce of self control you would have realized that I wasn't picking a fight with you and hadn't accused you of anything to begin with.

And one last thing.
You are making a habit of lying...
I know your penchant for accusing others rather than dealing with scripture.
This is an outright lie and you know it.
As long as people are respectful, so am I but if someone wants to throw it down, I don't back off. You came at me with attitude and gave you back more attitude than you could handle because I mix my attitude with the truth. Now you need to repent and stop this habitual lying and grow up. One good step in that direction would be for you to respectfully respond to my questions as asked. Although, I regretfully expect that you will not do so.

Resting in Him,
:Clete:

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by granite1010

Are you saying the Babylonians were deliberately lying?

Whoever made the story up was. Either that, or they were filling in the details with their imagination.

[firechyld]

Whoever made the story up was. Either that, or they were filling in the details with their imagination.

And what of the accepted scholarly position that the Mesopotamian myth predates the Hebrew one?

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

Whoever made the story up was. Either that, or they were filling in the details with their imagination.
ever play that game in school when a story gets past around a room, and it changes?
these are either 2 diffwerent floods, or the same flood as told by a different culture.

im guessing thats what your sayin

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by firechyld

And what of the accepted scholarly position that the Mesopotamian myth predates the Hebrew one?

predates???

an older known record maybe

[firechyld]

It's believed that the Mesopotamian myth is the older of the two... whether you want to believe that one was written first, or that one flood happened first is up to you.

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by brother Willi

ever play that game in school when a story gets past around a room, and it changes?

Oh yeah. In kindergarten.

these are either 2 diffwerent floods, or the same flood as told by a different culture.

im guessing thats what your sayin

You're guessing right. :up:

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by firechyld

And what of the accepted scholarly position that the Mesopotamian myth predates the Hebrew one?

What about it?

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by firechyld

It's believed that the Mesopotamian myth is the older of the two... whether you want to believe that one was written first, or that one flood happened first is up to you.
YEP, just as you are free to believe as you choose to.

if the original of any document is lost to time, does that mean it never existed?

[firechyld]

What about it?

If one is a lie, or borrowed, wouldn't it be more likely to be the younger version?

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by firechyld

If one is a lie, or borrowed, wouldn't it be more likely to be the younger version?
your statement is correct, but it assumes to much

[firechyld]

I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply pointing out a logical conclusion. I never said it was correct.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by firechyld

I'm not assuming anything. I'm simply pointing out a logical conclusion. I never said it was correct.
fair enough.

if an older copy of the flood is found, then what?

[firechyld]

What do you mean by "then what"?

[brother Willi]

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/EarthSciences16.html

[One Eyed Jack]

Originally posted by firechyld

If one is a lie, or borrowed, wouldn't it be more likely to be the younger version?

Not necessarily.

[brother Willi]

http://www.earthage.org/floodlegends/flood__legends.htm

[Daniel50]

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10: A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

[ButcherABC]

Originally posted by One Eyed Jack

Not necessarily.

That does run against accepted practices that a copy of a document closer to the event is more likely to be accurate... or at least that's what Christians like to tell me.

[ButcherABC]

Originally posted by brother Willi

http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/EarthSciences16.html

You do realize that Chinese characters have changed significantly over time. In fact, the characters from the time of when the flood would have happened look significantly different from the characters of today, and the above "analysis" is no longer valid.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

And Aimiel, what the hell are you doing agreeing with Rolf when you don't even believe that the Bible is the standard of truth? That's a lie. I guess that makes you a liar.What would you care if I ignored Bible verses or not?Because it seems to be a habit with you.Shouldn't I follow the leading of the Spirit within?Well, friend, if that spirit leads you contrary to The Word of God, then it's definitely not The Holy Spirit.As far as you are concerned if it feels right it is right.Is that what you believe the philosophy of someone who follows the leading and direction of The Holy Spirit is doing, following their 'feelings'? You have a misconception. Yes, He does impart feelings, such as He did to David, when He called him 'a man after God's Own Heart. He does cause a feeling of euphoria, to those whose hearts are right towards Him, but often brings conviction to those whose hearts are not. Are you feeling That Conviction? It would seem that you are, since you have jumped to the defensive, and seem to be trying to make yourself out to be 'holier-than-thou.' That, also, it would seem, is a habit with you. I hope that you can recover from that, as soon as you repent of it.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by firechyld

And what of the accepted scholarly position that the Mesopotamian myth predates the Hebrew one? They both were written after the actual event.

There are comic books from 60 years ago with stories about Captain America fighting Hitler. And there are much more recent accounts about WWII and Hitler that claim to be historical.

Would it be reasonable to conclude that the newer historical accounts are based on the older comic books? Should we conclude that WWII never took place and Hitler never existed because of the fictitious stories loosely based on them?

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by ButcherABC

You do realize that Chinese characters have changed significantly over time. In fact, the characters from the time of when the flood would have happened look significantly different from the characters of today, and the above "analysis" is no longer valid.

can you tell me, as you say "the above "analysis" is no longer valid"

when was it "valid"

tellin me it aint so today, dont really mean much.
was it "valid" 2,500 B.C. as is claimed?

if so, whats your point?

[brother Willi]

and for those who didnt hit thisLINK (http://www.earthage.org/floodlegends/flood__legends.htm)

Flood Legends

Several years ago a skeptic posed the following question to me:

"If there really was a worldwide flood, then why aren't there any flood legends?"

The question that needs to be answered is not: "where are all of the flood legends," but rather: "why hasn't the public been informed"? I say this because there are, in fact, many references from a broad spectrum of ancient civilizations that testify to a Worldwide Flood. And while this doesn't "prove" that there was a worldwide flood, it does add weight to the Biblical account in Genesis of such an event. These extra-Biblical accounts tell of a great flood that wiped out almost all life on the earth. For example, the Cree and Tolec Indians, ancient Persia, Greece, India, China, Mesopotamia, and Hawaii are just a few such cultures. One source says there are 270 such legends; another says 500. Many of these have the following three things in common:

1. The flood destroyed nearly all animal life on the earth,
2. A vessel of safety was provided.
3. Animals and people were on board.

For those who are interested, the following references should be of help. Along with This Link regarding the Historical accuracy of the Bible.

1. The Illustrated Origins Answer Book, by Paul S. Taylor, 4th edition, pp. 112-115. This book contains
information on a broad range of creation-evolution topics--including at least 100 geophysical and astro-
nomical clocks which yield young ages for the earth; it is well referenced and can be purchased for about
$8. It is available from : Answers In Genesis, 1-800-350-3232; or Master Books, 1-800-999-3777.
2. Motif-index of folk literature, by Stith Thompson, 1989 (Reprint of the 1955 ed.), Indiana University
Press, Bloomington, Indiana; this in turn, gives reference to 122 legends of the earth being destroyed by
a flood.
3. The Gilgamesh Epic and Old Testament parallels, by A. Heidel, 2nd ed., 1949, University of Chicago Press,
pp. 80-93, 236, 249. This account was found by archeologists working in Iraq. It was written on clay
tablets called cuneiform from Ancient Babylon. See also This Link.
4. Folk-lore in the Old Testament, J. B. Frazer, 3 vols., Macmillan, London, 1918, pp. 66-67, 70.
5. Aztecs of Mexico: origin, rise and fall of the Aztec nation, G.C Vaillant, 1962, Revised ed., Doubleday,
Garden City, New York, p.56.
6. The Deluge Story in Stone, B. C. Nelson, 1968, 2nd ed., Bethany Fellowship, Minneapolis, Minnesota, pp.
165-176.
7. "Deluge," F. H. Woods, in J. Hastings (ed) , Encyclopaedia of Religion and Ethics, Vol. 4, pp. 445-457,
Charles Scribner's Sons, New York.
8. The Biblical Flood and the Ice Epoch, A study in scientific history, by D.W. Patten, Pacific Meridian
Publishing Co., Seattle, WA, 1967, 2nd ed., pp.164-192.
9. "Recent discoveries in Bible lands," Supplement in "Youngs Analytical Concordance to the Bible, p.36,
1936, 1955, Funk & Wagnall's, New York.
10. "A comparison of narrative elements in ancient Mesopotamian creation-flood stories with Genesis 1-9,"
See Origins, 11: pp. 9-29; available from Loma Linda University; 1- 909-824-4548.
11. The flood reconsidered, F. A. Filby, 1970, Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, pp.
28-30.
12. The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, H. F. Vos, 1982, Vol. 2, pp.319-321, Wm. B. Eerdmans
Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, Michigan.
13. Myth Legend and Custom in the Old Testament, T. H. Gaster, 1969, Harper & Row, New York, pp.
83-131; for refs. see pp. 353-359. Note: This Book lists several hundred additional reference sources
of flood legends in a nation by nation format.
14. Unsolved Mysteries of the Past, Reader's Digest Assoc. Inc.1991, pp.78-81.
15. National Geographic, Dec. 1994; see the large (separate) map which was included with this issue; under the
section "Indians and the Fur Trade" reference is given to an ancient Cree (Indian) creation/flood story.
16. Dinosaurs by Design, by Dr. Duane T. Gish, Institute of Creation Research; p. 75 lists three different flood
stories: Hawaiian, Chinese, and Tolec Indian. 1-800-628-7640.


Copyright, 1999, 2000, 2004 Randy S. Berg; No part of this paper may be reproduced, used, or sold for profit without
the express written consent of the author. Copies may be distributed freely for educational purposes only.

Home Upright Fossil Tree Evidence Flood Evidences
:D

[brother Willi]

http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=040816&cat=news&st=newsd84gd8u80&src=ap


AP: Group Discovers John the Baptist Cave

Updated 11:36 AM ET August 16, 2004


By KARIN LAUB

KIBBUTZ TZUBA, Israel (AP) - Archaeologists said Monday they have found a cave where they believe John the Baptist anointed many of his disciples _ a huge cistern with 28 steps leading to an underground pool of water.

During an exclusive tour of the cave by The Associated Press, archaeologists presented wall carvings they said tell the story of the fiery New Testament preacher, as well as a stone they believe was used for ceremonial foot washing.

They also pulled about 250,000 pottery shards from the cave, the apparent remnants of small water jugs used in baptismal ritual.

"John the Baptist, who was just a figure from the Gospels, now comes to life," said British archaeologist Shimon Gibson, who supervised the dig outside Jerusalem.

However, others said there was no proof that John the Baptist ever set foot in the cave, about 2 1/2 miles from Ein Kerem, the preacher's hometown and now part of Jerusalem.

"Unfortunately, we didn't find any inscriptions," said James Tabor, a religious studies professor at the University of North Carolina at Charlotte.



Tabor and his students have participated in the excavations.

Both Tabor and Gibson said it was very likely that the wall carvings, including one showing a man with a staff and wearing animal skin, told the story of John the Baptist. The carvings stem from the Byzantine period and apparently were made by monks in the fourth or fifth century.

Gibson said he believed the monks commemorated John at a site linked to him by local tradition.

Gibson said the carvings, the foot washing stone and other finds, taken together with the proximity of John's hometown, constituted strong circumstantial evidence that the cave was used by John.

John, a contemporary of Jesus who also preached a message of redemption, is one of the most important figures in Christianity. The discovery, if confirmed, would be among the most significant breakthroughs for biblical scholars in memory.

The cave is on the property of Kibbutz Tzuba, an Israeli communal farm just outside Jerusalem. A member of the kibbutz, Reuven Kalifon, knew of the cave's existence _ the community's nectarine orchards run right up to the mouth of the cave _ but it was filled with soil almost to the ceiling.

In 1999, Kalifon asked Gibson to inspect the cave more closely.

The archaeologist, who has excavated in the Holy Land for three decades, crawled through the small opening and began removing boulders near the wall of the cave. When he pushed aside one of the stones, he saw a head carved into the wall _ the top of the figure he believes depicts John.

Gibson, who heads the Jerusalem Archaeological Field Unit, a private research group, organized an excavation. During the five-year project, he wrote a book, entitled "The Cave of John the Baptist," to be published later this week.

Gibson said the cave _ 24 yards long, around four yards wide and four yards deep _ was carved in the Iron Age, somewhere between 800 and 500 B.C., by the Israelites who apparently used it as an immersion pool.

"It apparently was adopted by John the Baptist, who wanted a place where he could bring people to undergo their rituals, pertaining to his ideas of baptism," Gibson said.

Believers would have walked down 28 stone steps. To their right, they would have discarded their clothes in a niche carved into the wall.

At the bottom of the steps, they would have placed the right foot onto a stone with an imprint of a foot. A small depression to the right of the imprint would have contained oil, to be poured over the foot for cleansing, Gibson said.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Both you and Aimiel have no business on a board where serious discussions of theology take place. You are not only both intellectually dishonest and incapable of reading but are also a straight up liar.Where, specifically, do you believe I have been 'intellectually dishonest,' or told a 'straight up lie?' Personally, I've never had anything against you, until you attacked me, for no good reason, and then failed to respond to my post, which clearly showed the reasoning (scripturally and spiritually sound) behind my earlier post(s). You have not only failed in regard to the discussion, but now, because of your poor attitude (bitter and condescending) you've effectively hijacked this thread, for the purposes of vaunting your own ego. That isn't discussing theology seriously, it's suppression and repression, and is not in the least bit productive, Christian or honest.

[c.moore]

Maybe you might take some time and research if what he teaches and if his new book about this is true.


Jesus was a reality attested to by historians.

"Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day."
Josephus,"Antiquities Of The Jews," Book #18, Chapter 2, section 3
(“The passage seems to suffer from repeated interpolations."
– (Catholic Encyclopedia))
Not a single writer before the 4th century – not Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, Arnobius, etc. – in all their defences against pagan hostility, makes a single reference to Josephus’ wondrous words.
The third century Church 'Father' Origen, for example, spent half his life and a quarter of a million words contending against the pagan writer Celsus. Origen drew on all sorts of proofs and witnesses to his arguments in his fierce defence of Christianity. He quotes from Josephus extensively. Yet even he makes no reference to this 'golden paragraph' from Josephus, which would have been the ultimate rebuttal. In fact, Origen actually said that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ."
Origen did not quote the 'golden paragraph' because this paragraph had not yet been written.
It was absent from early copies of the works of Josephus and did not appear in Origen's third century version of Josephus, referenced in his Contra Celsum.
How could Josephus claim that Jesus had been the answer to his messianic hopes yet remain an orthodox Jew?
The absurdity forces some apologists to make the ridiculous claim that Josephus was a closet Christian!

If Josephus really thought Jesus had been 'the Christ' surely he would have added more about him than one paragraph, a casual aside in someone else's (Pilate's) story?

In fact, Josephus relates much more about John the Baptist than about Jesus! He also reports in great detail the antics of other self-proclaimed messiahs, including Judas of Galilee, Theudas the Magician, and the unnamed 'Egyptian Jew' messiah.
It is striking that though Josephus confirms everything the Christians could wish for, he adds nothing not in the gospel narratives, nothing that would have been unknown by Christians already.
In fact, the Josephus paragraph about Jesus does not appear until the beginning of the fourth century, at the time of Constantine


Bishop Eusebius, self-confessed liar-for-god, was the first person known to have quoted this paragraph of Josephus, about the year 340 AD.
Whole libraries of antiquity where torched by the Christians. Yet unlike the works of his Jewish contemporaries, the histories of Josephus survived. They survived because the Christian censors had a use for them. They planted evidence on Josephus, turning the leading Jewish historian of his day into a witness for Jesus Christ ! Finding no references to Jesus anywhere in Josephus's genuine work, they interpolated a brief but all-embracing reference based purely on Christian belief.
Because the Testimonium is so readily exposed as a forgery, Christian apologists turn increasingly to a much briefer reference in Book 20:
"Festus was now dead, and Albinus was put upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrin of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others, (or some of his companions). And when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned."
Josephus (The Antiquities of the Jews, Book 20, Chapter 9)

Yet Josephus's second reference falls both because it is dependent upon the earlier (false) reference for explanation – and because it actually refers to "Jesus, the son of Damneus, high priest" !

"The following description of Jesus Christ was written by Publius Lentrelus, a resident of Judea in the reign of Tiberius Caesar. It first appeared in the writings of Saint Anselm of Canterbury, 11th century:
(The 11th century is too late. Not credible).
There lives at this time in Judea a man of singular virtue whose name is Jesus Christ, whom the barbarians esteem as a prophet, but his followers love and adore him as the offspring of the immortal God.
He calls back the dead from the graves and heals all sorts of diseases with a word or touch. He is a tall man, well-shaped, and of an amiable and reverend aspect; his hair of a color that can hardly be matched, falling into graceful curls, waving about and very agreeable crouching upon his shoulders, parted on the crown of the head, running as a stream to the front after fashion of the Nazarites. His forehead high, large and imposing; hs cheeks without spot or wrinkle, beautiful with a lovely red; his nose and mouth formed with exquisite symmetry; his beard, and of a color suitable to his hair, reaching below his chin and parted in the middle like a fork; his eyes bright blue, clear and serene. Look innocent, dignified, manly and mature. In proportion of body most perfect, and captivating; his arms and hands delectable to behold.
He rebukes with majesty, councils with mildness, His whole address whether in word or deed, being eloquent and grave. No man has seen him laugh, yet his manners are exceedingly pleasant, but he has wept frequently in the presence of men. He is temporate, modest and wise. A man for his extraordinary beauty and perfection, surpassing the children of men in every sense."
E. Raymond Capt's book, "The Resurrection Tomb"
TO TIBERIUS CAESAR:
A young man appeared in Galilee preaching with humble unction, a new law in the Name of the God that had sent Him. At first I was apprehensive that His design was to stir up the people against the Romans, but my fears were soon dispelled. Jesus of Nazareth spoke rather as a friend of the Romans than of the Jews. One day I observed in the midst of a group of people a young man who was leaning against a tree, calmly addressing the multitude. I was told it was Jesus. This I could easily have suspected so great was the difference between Him and those who were listening to Him. His golden colored hair and beard gave to his appearance a celestial aspect. He appeared to be about 30 years of age. Never have I seen a sweeter or more serene countenance. What a contrast between Him and His bearers with their black beards and tawny complexions! Unwilling to interrupt Him by my presence, I continued my walk but signified to my secretary to join the group and listen. Later, my secretary reported that never had he seen in the works of all the philosophers anything that compared to the teachings of Jesus. He told me that Jesus was neither seditious nor rebellious, so we extended to Him our protection. He was at liberty to act, to speak, to assemble and to address the people. This unlimited freedom provoked the Jews -- not the poor but the rich and powerful.
Later, I wrote to Jesus requesting an interview with Him at the Praetorium. He came. When the Nazarene made His appearance I was having my morning walk and as I faced Him my feet seemed fastened with an iron hand to the marble pavement and I trembled in every limb as a guilty culprit, though he was calm. For some time I stood admiring this extraordinary Man. There was nothing in Him that was repelling, nor in His character, yet I felt awed in His presence. I told Him that there was a magnetic simplicity about Him and His personality that elevated Him far above the philosophers and teachers of His day.
Now, Noble Sovereign, these are the facts concerning Jesus of Nazareth and I have taken the time to write you in detail concerning these matters. I say that such a man who could convert water into wine, change death into life, disease into health; calm the stormy seas, is not guilty of any criminal offense and as others have said, we must agree -- truly this is the Son of God.
Your most obedient servant,
Pontius Pilate to Tiberius Caesar "
E. Raymond Capt's book, "The Resurrection Tomb"- Copies are in the Congressional Library in Washington, D.C
(Where was this information found? When was it written? It was not written before the fourth century).
"I asked him to describe this person to me, so that I might know him if I should meet him. He said: 'If you ever meet him you will know him. While he is nothing but a man, there is something about him that distinguishes him from every other man. He is the picture of his mother, only he has not her smooth, round face. His hair is a little more golden than hers, though it is as much from sunburn as anything else. He is tall, and his shoulders are a little drooped; his visage is thin and of a swarthy complexion, though this is from exposure. His eyes are large and a soft blue, and rather dull and heavy....' This Jew is convinced that he is the Messiah of the world. ...this was the same person that was born of the virgin in Bethlehem some twenty-six years before..."
The Archko Volume, Gamaliel's Interview, translated by Drs. McIntosh and Twyman of the Antiquarian Lodge, Genoa, Italy, from manuscripts in Constantinople and the records of the Senatorial Docket taken from the Vatican of Rome (1896) 92-93
(Again, this is written too late: after the fourth century).
In Christ
Mary
Only when the Magisterium is accepted docilely in a spirit of faith ... can you avoid the temptations caused by the superficial fascination of theological trends which disfigure and obscure the truth" Pope John Paul II

(“What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!� Pope Leo X).

[Chileice]

Hey c.moore,
I wouldn't get too bent out of shape. There have been and are conspiracy theorists from day 1. Matthew even points out that early people tried to start a conspiracy saying Jesus' body was robbed. Why on earth would he even plant that "doubt" if it wasn't true?

The other thing to remember is people question everything, I mean everything. There are all kinds of people who doubt the haulocaust, who doubt men went to the moon, people who thimk Elvis is alive (really!) people who doubt ANYTHING, even things they have seen with their own eyes.

The mythology teacher doesn't have to deal with his own sins or his own conscious as long as Jesus id "just another myth" but if he admits his reality, he will be stuck having to make a decision. So he has conviently developed a complex armour to ward off any evidence to the contrary so that he doesn't have to deal with Jesus. People build scenarios to protect themselves from grief, from loss, from responsibility. He is just another in a long line of such people. He is also punch-drunk with his supposed intelectual superiority. But that is also a crock. Reality has a way of breaking those guys down eventually.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Where, specifically, do you believe I have been 'intellectually dishonest,' or told a 'straight up lie?' Personally, I've never had anything against you, until you attacked me, for no good reason, and then failed to respond to my post, which clearly showed the reasoning (Scripturally and spiritually sound) behind my earlier post(s). You have not only failed in regard to the discussion, but now, because of your poor attitude (bitter and condescending) you've effectively hijacked this thread, for the purposes of vaunting your own ego. That isn't discussing theology seriously, it's suppression and repression, and is not in the least bit productive, Christian or honest.


Actually, Aimiel it seems I owe you an apology!

I must be losing my mind! I was sure you were the one who had told me a long while back that your test of truth was the Spirit's testimony within your own heart, and that you commonly get revelations from God that may or may not be directly Biblical, etc. However, not only am I not able to find any such post, but your posts here seem to contradict such a belief and I admittedly have not followed your posts lately. So I must have you mixed up with some other knucklehead around here! I hope you will accept my sincere apologies.
I still don't get why you would agree with Rolf though, since he is the one who attacked me personally after having been asked a simple and fair question and then after I responded to his attack he accused me of posting ad hominem attacks! A little hypocritical don't you think?
All I ever wanted to know is whether he believed what it sounded like he was saying or if he had miss stated it! A question I still have no real answer for! I can of course guess based on his extremely emotional over reaction but I'd prefer a direct answer to my question wouldn't you? Or do you also believe that there are those whom God does not wish to reveal Himself too?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeif