Where Does The Bible Say...? (HOF thread) [Archive] - Theology Forum

JustAChristian

August 22nd, 2004, 07:37 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

LightSon-
I did not mean that as an insult. I apologize.

JustAChristian-
1] Yes.
2] Yes.
3] Yes
4] I've been baptized in the Spirit, but my water baptism has nothing to do with the remission of my sins. Christ's blood took care of that.

Sorry, you've failed the test! Jesus said that one must be born again of water and the spirit. You left out an essential part. Do you suppose that God will accept you in your sins? He wouldn't accept Paul (Read Acts 22:16). Do you suppose those who heard Peter and the apostles on the day of Pentecost, if they rejected their preaching (Peter and the other apostles) who said they must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, failed to heed the command that God would accept them? I don't think so! To be baptism for the remission of sins is a command of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16). It is the way one gets into Christ (Galatians 3:27). We are buried and raised with Christ in baptism (Romans 6:3-5). The Bible says that Baptism also now saves us (1 Peter 3:21). You read all this and reject the commandment? How then do you contact the cleansing blood of Christ?

JustAChristian

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

billwald

August 22nd, 2004, 11:15 AM

"Accepting Christ as a personal savour" is not a biblical concept.

Zakath

August 22nd, 2004, 11:18 AM

Originally posted by billwald

"Accepting Christ as a personal savour" is not a biblical concept. :thumb:

I've asked many an evangelical to point out where that "personal savior" passage is and not one has ever found it... :think:

Nineveh

August 22nd, 2004, 11:37 AM

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "

Christ is who saves, hence, Jesus is Savior. Can one "confess" for another? No, so that's personal. Can one "believe in" someone else's heart? No, so that is personal, too.

JustAChristian

August 22nd, 2004, 12:25 PM

Originally posted by Nineveh

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "

Christ is who saves, hence, Jesus is Savior. Can one "confess" for another? No, so that's personal. Can one "believe in" someone else's heart? No, so that is personal, too.

But what have you proven? You have not discounted my premise at all. Furthermore, your verse reference in Romans 10 was told to the church not to the sinner. This is what the Christian is to do; confess daily in our lives that Jesus is Lord and believe daily that God did in deed raise Him from the dead. Only then are we fit for the kingdom of heaven. It is a shame how many "Christians" fail to do these important acts of obedience.

JustAChristian

JustAChristian

August 22nd, 2004, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Zakath

:thumb:

I've asked many an evangelical to point out where that "personal savior" passage is and not one has ever found it... :think:

Zakath,

Thank you for you response. Let me continue by asking, Is it your understanding as it is mine that the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit and those who believed Peter's preaching were baptized in water in the name of Christ on the same day. Cornelius was baptized with the Holy Spirit and the same day, likely within the same hour, was baptized in water in the name of Christ. Jesus told Nicodemus that without being "born of water and of the Spirit" one can not enter this spiritual family, the church (John 3:1-8). "Born of water and of the Spirit" refers to the one new birth, accomplished when one is baptized in water according to (or, as directed by) the Holy Spirit (John 3:3-5). Holy Spirit baptism was never meant for all people. Do you see therefore,as I do that many examples are shown in Acts of people who were not Holy Spirit baptized but rejoiced in their relationship to Christ? Have a great rest of the day.

JustAChristian :angel:

Zakath

August 22nd, 2004, 12:30 PM

Originally posted by Nineveh

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "

Christ is who saves, hence, Jesus is Savior. Can one "confess" for another? No, so that's personal. Can one "believe in" someone else's heart? No, so that is personal, too. That's an awful lot of verbal gymnastics to get a simple phrase...

If it was so important why didn't Paul or even Jesus say it that way?

BTW, some non-evangelical Christians who believe in covenant theology assert that parents can "confess" for their under-age child.

Nineveh

August 22nd, 2004, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by JustAChristian

But what have you proven? You have not discounted my premise at all.

Mea culpa, I was addressing billwald and Zakath really...

Furthermore, your verse reference in Romans 10 was told to the church not to the sinner.

Seriously now, would anyone be in the Body is they had not already confessed and believed?

This is what the Christian is to do; confess daily in our lives that Jesus is Lord and believe daily that God did in deed raise Him from the dead. Only then are we fit for the kingdom of heaven. It is a shame how many "Christians" fail to do these important acts of obedience.

At the time I confessed and believed, I was Baptised by the Spirit and made part of the Body. Are you saying we need to be resaved every moment?

Nineveh

August 22nd, 2004, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by Zakath

That's an awful lot of verbal gymnastics to get a simple phrase...

Well... obviously that simple statement has escaped your (and billwald's) understanding.

If it was so important why didn't Paul or even Jesus say it that way?

Didn't Paul (dramatically hand picked by Jesus) write Romans?

BTW, some non-evangelical Christians who believe in covenant theology assert that parents can "confess" for their under-age child.

Well, fortunately, my faith isn't dictated by men :)

Zakath

August 22nd, 2004, 01:05 PM

Originally posted by Nineveh

Well... obviously that simple statement has escaped your (and billwald's) understanding.[/'quote]Perhaps because it's not actually there...

So show me where the term "accept Jesus (or Christ) as personal savior" is used in any bible translation...

I'd be interested in seeing such a simple concept explicitly stated. So would many non-evangelical Christians...

[quote]Didn't Paul (dramatically hand picked by Jesus) write Romans?Are you saying it is in Romans?

If so, please cite chapter and verse...

Well, fortunately, my faith isn't dictated by men :) Your faith is mainly dependent on the veracity of the contents of a collection of copies of books (for which no originals appear to exist).

These copies were allegedly of books written by men (centuries ago) in one or more languages you cannot read.

The copies were then translated by other men you've never met...

It would appear to a casual observer that your faith is very dependent on and dictated by men... ;)

Nineveh

August 22nd, 2004, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Zakath

Perhaps because it's not actually there...

Seems to say "you" and "your". Sounds rather personal.

Are you saying it is in Romans?

That verse is in Romans, yes.

Your faith is mainly dependent on the veracity of the contents of a collection of copies of books (for which no originals appear to exist).

These copies were allegedly of books written by men (centuries ago) in one or more languages you cannot read.

The copies were then translated by other men you've never met...

It would appear to a casual observer that your faith is very dependent on and dictated by men... ;)

And I am also quite content not to take "theological" understanding from an apostate turned atheist :)

Lighthouse

August 22nd, 2004, 06:20 PM

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Sorry, you've failed the test! Jesus said that one must be born again of water and the spirit. You left out an essential part. Do you suppose that God will accept you in your sins? He wouldn't accept Paul (Read Acts 22:16). Do you suppose those who heard Peter and the apostles on the day of Pentecost, if they rejected their preaching (Peter and the other apostles) who said they must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, failed to heed the command that God would accept them? I don't think so! To be baptism for the remission of sins is a command of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:15-16). It is the way one gets into Christ (Galatians 3:27). We are buried and raised with Christ in baptism (Romans 6:3-5). The Bible says that Baptism also now saves us (1 Peter 3:21). You read all this and reject the commandment? How then do you contact the cleansing blood of Christ?

JustAChristian
First of all, where in my post did you see me say that I was not baptized with water? I have been baptized in water. But that had nothing to do with my salvation. Was Paul saved on the road to Damascus, or was it not until he was baptized? What about the thief on the cross? There is only one baptism.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
I don't see that saying baptism saves you.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
See above.

Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Ditto.

Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Again, no mention of salvation.

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And yet again.

Acts 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Just like the rest.

JustAChristian

August 23rd, 2004, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

First of all, where in my post did you see me say that I was not baptized with water? I have been baptized in water. But that had nothing to do with my salvation. Was Paul saved on the road to Damascus, or was it not until he was baptized? What about the thief on the cross? There is only one baptism.

I don't see that saying baptism saves you.

See above.

Ditto.

Again, no mention of salvation.

And yet again.

Just like the rest.

First of all, where in my post did you see me say that I was not baptized with water? I have been baptized in water. But that had nothing to do with my salvation. Was Paul saved on the road to Damascus, or was it not until he was baptized? What about the thief on the cross? There is only one baptism.

I don't doubt your water baptism. I doubt your purpose in being baptized. If it was not to wash away sins (Acts 22:16) it was not for the right reason. If it was not to get into Christ (Galatians 3:27) it was not for the right reason. If it was not to receive the purchase by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28) it was not for the right reason. If it was not in order to be saved (Mark 16:16) it was not for the right reason. Etc... Was Paul saved on the road to Damascus? If he was then he was saved while still retaining his sins (Acts 22:16). What about the thief on the cross? The thief on the cross was not amenable to the gospel of Christ, the New Covenant ratified at Jesus' death, (Hebrews 9:17) for he was subject to the Old Covenant, the Mosaic Law which did not specify baptism. There is indeed only one baptism. If you say that it is Holy Spirit baptism then why were you water baptized?

I don't see where baptism saves you.

You should go to 1 Peter 3:21 for that statement.

See above.

And I say "See above at 1 Peter 3:21."

Ditto.

Do I note a pattern here? Chect 1 Peter 3:21 and Mark 16:16

Again, no mention of salvation.

I hope you want continue to limited yourself so much that you will not be willing to search out the truth. I ask you to be more conscience of Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38, Acts 10: 47-48, Acts 19:1-6, Acts 22:16, Romans 6:3-5, and 1 Peter 3:21 as you choose to make your entries.

And yet again.

Does not this context show that Peter command the household of Cornelius to be baptized in water? Why? If they were cleansed of sins before water baptism were they still in their sins after they were baptized? Why do you suppose Peter commanded them to be baptized?

Just like the rest.

Check this verse out..."Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently" (1 Peter 1:22 AV) Isn't it showing that obedience to the truth, the gospel, is essential to purifing the soul. How did Peter tell those on Pentecost to react to the preaching of the gospel? Read Acts 2:38 for the enlightening answer. yes, baptism for the remission of sins is essential for salvation.

JustAChristian :angel:

JustAChristian

August 23rd, 2004, 05:56 PM

There is only ONE recognized baptism. "One Lord, one faith, one baptism," (Eph 4:5)
There is not a spiritual baptism and a water baptism. The baptism recognized is the one instituted by Christ himself, which He said was in order to "fulfill ALL righteousness" (Mt 3:15). Even though Jesus was not baptized for the remission of sins, His baptism is the pattern for the baptism that is now recognized by God; one in which God becomes well-pleased in the one being baptized(Mt 3:17), one in which the Holy Spirit is received(Mt 3:16), one in which in its very form depicts the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus(Mt 3:16: "come UP straight way out of the WATER)--our baptism is validated by the events surrounding Christ's baptism.

JustAChristian

Nineveh

August 23rd, 2004, 06:03 PM

JAC,
Would you say Salvation could be withheld from a person who has repented if a "clergy" refused to baptise them with water?

Lighthouse

August 24th, 2004, 03:16 AM

My water baptism was a way to say that I had chosen to partake in the death and resurrection of Christ. It was not a decleration to God, it was a declaration to mankind. I made my declaration to God with my mouth, when I confessed. You're going to make me throw up. You spew venom like the viper you are.

"Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission for sin."
-Hebrews 9:22

And none of those verses say that baptism is necessary for salvation. All they say is that when one is baptised with the intent of a declaration of faith in Christ, then they are saved. But they never say that baptism has to be a part of that declaration.

"For if you tell others with your own mouth that Jesus Christ is your Lord, and believe in your own heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
-Roman 10:9

Searching...searching...searching...nope! Nothing about baptism being necessary for salvation.

JustAChristian

August 25th, 2004, 08:07 AM

Baptism is the point at which a person is IN CHRIST. We are joined to the Lord at this time. "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have PUT ON Christ." (Gal 3:27)

The apostle Peter ordered for converts in Cornelius' household to be baptized. "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days." (Acts 10:47-48)
The apostle Paul commended the believers at Rome for their baptism "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that FORM of doctrine which was delivered you."(Rom 6:17)

At Pentecost, in the midst of Peter's sermon, the adherents to his message were pricked in their hearts and asked Peter, "What shall we do?"--moved to repentance. "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)

Baptism is not a "good work", meaning that in baptism I am trying to earn my salvation. Baptism is the response of faith. Faith ALWAYS obeys--the "obedience OF FAITH" (Rom 16:26). In Mt 28:18ff, Jesus called for the baptism of all believers, and every TRUE believer seeks to do what pleases Jesus. Baptism is the working of faith in submissive response to the command of Jesus.

Some may say, if baptism saves us, then what about the theif on the cross? This is a special acception. Believe me, if that thief could have come down from that cross to be baptized, he would have done so! Doctrines that shape our consideration of baptism can not be shaped around this single incident. If this was a pattern for sound theology than we might as well start teaching that every person who lies will die instantly, as Ananias and Sapphira did.

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

Nineveh

August 25th, 2004, 02:50 PM

Was my question too long? :o

JustAChristian

August 26th, 2004, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by Nineveh

JAC,
Would you say Salvation could be withheld from a person who has repented if a "clergy" refused to baptise them with water?

Sorry for the oversight. I just missed this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I wonder why someone would withhold baptism from a requestee. If one has repented of sins and confessed Christ as the Son of God, I am sure that there is some one out there that will baptize him for the remission of sins. Every minister or elder in the Church of Christ would gladly assist that person in obeying the gospel. If you would like more direct information on who to contact please send me an e-mail. You asked if salvation would be withheld if a "clergy" refused to baptize the candidate? God is a God of mercy and grace and I believe that whatever He did would be the right thing to do but as for my understanding, yes, I do believe salvation would be withheld and for this reason. It is essential to complete all the counsel of God in obedience of faith. Cornelius was told to contect Peter in Joppa in order that he could learn what is essential to be saved. It was essential then that he obey the command to be saved in Acts 10. The Ethopian nobleman was show the essentially of being baptized immediatey or at least this is strongly suggested in Acts 8. Baptism was shown to have been done immediately after it was understood by Lydia and the Philippian jailor in Acts 16. I don't find any case where baptism was suggested to be a option or was ever delayed when it was understood by the candidate its intended purpose. I hope I have answered you question satisfactory. Have a great rest of the day.

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

Nineveh

August 26th, 2004, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by JustAChristian

Sorry for the oversight. I just missed this. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Thank you for replying :)

You asked if salvation would be withheld if a "clergy" refused to baptize the candidate? yes, I do believe salvation would be withheld and for this reason.

So men have control over who is and is not admitted into the Body?

JustAChristian

August 26th, 2004, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by Nineveh

Thank you for replying :)

So men have control over who is and is not admitted into the Body?

Come let us reason together. Does man have control over who is and is not admitted into the body? Not actively for the Lord adds to the church (Acts 2:47), but the Bible does say one must obey the gospel (Romans 1:16; Hebrews 5:8-9; Romans 10:16). Entrance into the body of Christ the church is through obeying the commandment of baptism (Galatians 3:27; Col. 1:18; Acts 2:38). The same thing that saves also puts one into the body (1 Peter 3:21; Romans 6:3-5; Acts 2:41-47; Romans 6:17). If one knows what is essential to be saved and added to the body of Christ the church, and does not do that then to him or her it is a sin (James 4:17). No one with sin shall inherit the kingdom of God in heaven(Revelation 21:27). Jesus set the paramaters of salvation. Man carries them out to the in obedience of faith (Romans 1:5). Disobedience is the only barrier for condemnation (2 Thess. 1:7-10).

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

Nineveh

August 26th, 2004, 06:31 PM

Men do not know the heart of other men. Let's suppose a really bad character has really repented, went through that heart changing moment of his life where he accepts Christ. He then goes to be baptised with water and the "clergy" are not compelled. Does this "cergy" control this man's admittance into the Body or not?

billwald

August 26th, 2004, 06:37 PM

"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. "

Then GW Bush is the personal president for every military person who was sworn in this year? And the USofA is the personal country of everyone who says the Pledge of A?

Lighthouse

August 26th, 2004, 09:56 PM

JustAChristian-
John the baptist said, "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he [Jesus] who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." [Mt. 3:11] You will also find him quoted in Mark 1:7-8 and Luke 3:16. And John 1:33 also has John the Baptist stating that God told him Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.

And Paul wrote: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all." [Eph. 4:4-6]

And to answer why I was baptized: It was when I was younger. When I did not know Ephesians 4:4-6. But I never thought baptism saved me. I was saved before I got baptised. By at least a couple of years, if not more.

JustAChristian

August 27th, 2004, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by Nineveh

Men do not know the heart of other men. Let's suppose a really bad character has really repented, went through that heart changing moment of his life where he accepts Christ. He then goes to be baptised with water and the "clergy" are not compelled. Does this "cergy" control this man's admittance into the Body or not?

In the heart of man lies many evil devices. I am sure there are "clergy" that would not perform a immersional rite, but one is not compelled to use only one "clergy." I told you earlier of those who would do that which is essential. Baptism is essential and will be done if the intendee seeks the person out that will perform it. The only person that controls entrance into the the church is Jesus (John 10:7). He says that salvation is in the church (John 10:9; Acts 2:47). Please don't limit yourself by believing a black robe and white collar defines who will be saved. God is older than black robes and white collars.

In Christ,
JustAChristian

JustAChristian

August 27th, 2004, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

JustAChristian-
John the baptist said, "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he [Jesus] who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." [Mt. 3:11] You will also find him quoted in Mark 1:7-8 and Luke 3:16. And John 1:33 also has John the Baptist stating that God told him Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.

And Paul wrote: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all." [Eph. 4:4-6]

And to answer why I was baptized: It was when I was younger. When I did not know Ephesians 4:4-6. But I never thought baptism saved me. I was saved before I got baptised. By at least a couple of years, if not more.

John the baptist said, "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he [Jesus] who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry; he [Jesus] will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." [Mt. 3:11] You will also find him quoted in Mark 1:7-8 and Luke 3:16. And John 1:33 also has John the Baptist stating that God told him Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit.

I gather that you are one that believes everyone will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Will they also be baptized with fire? How will this be? When will the baptism with fire be? Were first century Christians baptized with fire? If you do not believe all Christians will be baptized with fire, then perhaps all will not be baptized with the Holy Spirit. I believe only the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit to receive power to perform as promised (Acts 1:8), and the household of Cornelius in Acts 10 to convenience the Jews that salvation was being offered to the Gentiles (Acts 11:15-17). Context of Peter's discourse with the Jews seems strongly to indicate that no manifestations of the baptism with the Holy Spirit until the time of Cornelius' experience was ever seen. Wouldn't you agree? Thus, want you agree that all Christians were not baptized with the Holy Spirit?

And Paul wrote: "There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all." [Eph. 4:4-6]

This is my understanding also. There is ONE baptism for today. This could not be HOLY SPIRIT baptism for the reason that all Christians are not shown to be baptized. Likewise, the baptism with the Holy Spirit was never to save but to instill power (Acts 1:8) and give evidence to the will of God (Acts 11L15-17).

And to answer why I was baptized: It was when I was younger. When I did not know Ephesians 4:4-6. But I never thought baptism saved me. I was saved before I got baptised. By at least a couple of years, if not more.

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you put on Christ (Galatians 3:27).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved without receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; Romans 8:9).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you were united with Christ (Romans 6:3-5).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine which is baptism (Romans 6:17).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved while still in your sins (Acts 22:16; Romans 6:18).

Do you believe this is the case for you? Do you really believe you have been saved based on the above arguments?

JustAChristian :angel:

Nineveh

August 27th, 2004, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by JustAChristian
Baptism is essential and will be done if the intendee seeks the person out that will perform it.

Either a "clergy" ( or whatever word you need to use ) has control to open and close the gates of heaven or they do not. Which is it?

The only person that controls entrance into the the church is Jesus

I think so... yet you feel the need to include a "right men perform" + Jesus.

He says that salvation is in the church

I understand Church = the Body of Christ.

Do you really believe water has the power to change a man's heart, make him repentant, and make him accept Christ?

JustAChristian

August 27th, 2004, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Nineveh

Either a "clergy" ( or whatever word you need to use ) has control to open and close the gates of heaven or they do not. Which is it?

I think so... yet you feel the need to include a "right men perform" + Jesus.

I understand Church = the Body of Christ.

Do you really believe water has the power to change a man's heart, make him repentant, and make him accept Christ?

Either a "clergy" ( or whatever word you need to use ) has control to open and close the gates of heaven or they do not. Which is it?

Let me suggest you review the commission of Matthew 28:18-20. You will see that Jesus sent his apostles into all the world to make disciples by baptizing and teaching them. The person is only performing the will of God. They have no authority beyond that commissioned by Christ. No individual other than Christ opens or closes any door into the kingdom of God as you seem to want to argue.

Do you really believe water has the power to change a man's heart, make him repentant, and make him accept Christ?

Water only acts as the medium through which the will of God is performed. It has no cleansing power of itself. It is the "burial source" in obedience. Jesus shed his blood in his death. One is united to Christ in his death through baptism. When one obeys from the heart the form of the doctrine (the fact being actual dying) then he or she is obedient to the command of Christ to be baptized (Acts 10:47-49; Acts 2:38; Acts 19:1-6). It is the act of baptism in water to contact the spiritual application of the cleansing blood that saves (Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21) and not the water. I hope you come to see this

By the way, do you check the scriptural references I give you or am I wasting my time?

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

Nineveh

August 27th, 2004, 04:58 PM

JAC,
"the medium through which the will of God is performed"

The Holy Spirit that Baptised me did not come through a "medium". I was alone, repentant, and humbled before a Mighty God.

"When one obeys from the heart the form of the doctrine ..."

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

"It is the act of baptism in water to contact the spiritual application of the cleansing blood that saves."

This sound like outright paganism, do you realize that?

Lighthouse

August 28th, 2004, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by JustAChristian

I gather that you are one that believes everyone will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Will they also be baptized with fire? How will this be? When will the baptism with fire be? Were first century Christians baptized with fire? If you do not believe all Christians will be baptized with fire, then perhaps all will not be baptized with the Holy Spirit. I believe only the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit to receive power to perform as promised (Acts 1:8), and the household of Cornelius in Acts 10 to convenience the Jews that salvation was being offered to the Gentiles (Acts 11:15-17). Context of Peter's discourse with the Jews seems strongly to indicate that no manifestations of the baptism with the Holy Spirit until the time of Cornelius' experience was ever seen. Wouldn't you agree? Thus, want you agree that all Christians were not baptized with the Holy Spirit?
John the baptist was not talking to the disciples, he was talking to everyone present. And the fire he was speaking of is the fire of God. Not a physical fire. All christians are baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire.

This is my understanding also. There is ONE baptism for today. This could not be HOLY SPIRIT baptism for the reason that all Christians are not shown to be baptized. Likewise, the baptism with the Holy Spirit was never to save but to instill power (Acts 1:8) and give evidence to the will of God (Acts 11L15-17).
Not all Christians are shown to be baptized with what? The Holy Spirit, or water?

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you put on Christ (Galatians 3:27).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved without receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38; Romans 8:9).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you were united with Christ (Romans 6:3-5).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved before you obeyed from the heart the form of doctrine which is baptism (Romans 6:17).

If you were saved before you were baptized for the remission of sins then you were saved while still in your sins (Acts 22:16; Romans 6:18).

Do you believe this is the case for you? Do you really believe you have been saved based on the above arguments?

JustAChristian :angel:
Yes. I was asaved before being baptized. And, in my salvation, I put on Christ...and received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

is there a reason you don't want to address Romans 10:9?

OMEGA

August 28th, 2004, 01:50 AM

People do NOT accept Jesus .

Jesus accepts and chooses them.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father

which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Acts 24:3 We accept it always, and in all places,

most noble Felix, with all thankfulness.

OMEGA

August 28th, 2004, 01:52 AM

Lighthouse ,

What were you saved from

and what will you be saved from ?

JustAChristian

August 28th, 2004, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Nineveh

JAC,
"the medium through which the will of God is performed"

The Holy Spirit that Baptised me did not come through a "medium". I was alone, repentant, and humbled before a Mighty God.

"When one obeys from the heart the form of the doctrine ..."

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

"It is the act of baptism in water to contact the spiritual application of the cleansing blood that saves."

This sound like outright paganism, do you realize that?

The Holy Spirit that Baptised me did not come through a "medium". I was alone, repentant, and humbled before a Mighty God.

You may think you received a manifestation of the Holy Spirit in baptism, but let me assure you that what you received has no foundation from the New Testment. If you could find one example of Holy Spirit baptism for salvation You could expand upon your premise. However, the Holy spirit does not come to save, but came to the saved (Acts 2:38). Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit to extend power to the apostles (Acts 1:8), and to the household of Cornelius to show the Jews that salvation had come to the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-48). No one is ever shown to have been baptized with the Holy Spirit for any other reason.

"The act of baptism in water to contact the spiritual application of the blood of Christ"...This sound like outright paganism, do you realize that?

It is plainly pictured in Romans 6:3-5 as a cleansing process. While God has made the plan of cleansing and salvation available, man must take advantage of the plan in order to be saved. The evidence has been given that Jesus, the Son of God, is the atoning sacrifice. Lost man must believe in the deity of Jesus (Acts 8:37), repent of living a lifestyle of sin (Acts 17:30), confess faith in the deity of Jesus (Acts 8:37) and be baptized in order to contact the cleansing blood of Jesus and thus be saved (Acts 2:38).

God's truth reveals His love which motivated His amazing grace and mercy to man (Eph. 2:5,6). The truth makes known the possibility of salvation, or deliverance from the world (Gal. 1:4). The truth declares both the power and our access to the cleansing blood of God's Son, the sacrifice for our sins (Rom. 6:1-6). It is hardly paganism.

JustAChristian

billwald

August 28th, 2004, 12:03 PM

Primary problem is that the Bible doesn't "say" anything. It presents texts that can be interpreted in various ways, ergo the existance of denominations.

JustAChristian

August 28th, 2004, 04:53 PM

Originally posted by billwald

Primary problem is that the Bible doesn't "say" anything. It presents texts that can be interpreted in various ways, ergo the existance of denominations.

Oh, but the Bible does say a lot. All that it says is "truth." (John 17:17). Man comes along and denies truth for a fable (Galatians 3:1). If man would "rightly divide" truth (2 Timothy 2:15) there would not be any denominations. Man is accountable to obey (believe) the only truth which is the word of God rightly discerned (1 Thessw. 2:13). Only an unrighteous God would couse us not to know truth and to hold us accountable for that action. This is not the God that I serve through Jesus Christ.

JustAChristian :angel:

Lighthouse

August 28th, 2004, 10:25 PM

JustAChristian-
Address Romans 10:9!

Nineveh

August 29th, 2004, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by JustAChristian

You may think you received a manifestation

No, in fact I don't think I had a "manifestation" in the classical pagan use of the term.

of the Holy Spirit in baptism, but let me assure you that what you received has no foundation from the New Testment.

Rather, no man had any say if my heart was repentant, if I accepted God, or if I was humble before God. This was between God and myself alone, as it is for everyone. No "clergy" lead me to Christ. The Law convicted me straight from the pages of Scripture.

If you could find one example of Holy Spirit baptism for salvation You could expand upon your premise.

Faith is the evidence of things unseen. Rather, I would say it's you that needs to provide an example of water changing a man's heart.

However, the Holy spirit does not come to save, but came to the saved (Acts 2:38).

What a coincidence! It wasn't until I was humbled and repentant that the Holy Spirit baptised me! :)

Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit to extend power to the apostles (Acts 1:8), and to the household of Cornelius to show the Jews that salvation had come to the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-48). No one is ever shown to have been baptized with the Holy Spirit for any other reason.

"John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

I further contend the Spirit was present at the first Pentecost as well.

It is plainly pictured in Romans 6:3-5 as a cleansing process. While God has made the plan of cleansing and salvation available, man must take advantage of the plan in order to be saved. The evidence has been given that Jesus, the Son of God, is the atoning sacrifice. Lost man must believe in the deity of Jesus (Acts 8:37), repent of living a lifestyle of sin (Acts 17:30), confess faith in the deity of Jesus (Acts 8:37) and be baptized in order to contact the cleansing blood of Jesus and thus be saved (Acts 2:38).

God's truth reveals His love which motivated His amazing grace and mercy to man (Eph. 2:5,6). The truth makes known the possibility of salvation, or deliverance from the world (Gal. 1:4). The truth declares both the power and our access to the cleansing blood of God's Son, the sacrifice for our sins (Rom. 6:1-6). It is hardly paganism.

Out of all that, you did not address what you said which is pagan. You are implying one can "contact the spiritual" through a "ritual". That most certainly is paganism.

billwald

August 29th, 2004, 07:09 PM

"Man is accountable to obey (believe) the only truth which is the word of God rightly discerned (1 Thessw. 2:13). Only an unrighteous God would couse us not to know truth and to hold us accountable for that action."

First problem is that no man obeys all the truth he knows because of our sin nature.

Second, then those who misinterpret the truth are not held accountable? Including Mormons?

Lighthouse

August 30th, 2004, 03:01 AM

I'm still waiting on your explanation of Romans 10:9, JAC. And what do you think Jesus meant when he said, "Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." [John 3:5]?

JustAChristian

August 30th, 2004, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

JustAChristian-
Address Romans 10:9!

lighthouse,
I don't do much computer work on Sunday. I don't have much time because of my worship activities. I am posting my comments on Romans 10:9 for your consideration. It is in agreement with the writer that I quote in this posting.

First of all, a better understanding of verse nine is seen when one considers the entire context in which it is contained.

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 10:8-11 AV)

Robert Whiteside, says, â€œWe are told that the Jews spoke of a difficult or impossible thing as a thing afar off; an easy thing, as nigh. It was of impossible, a thing afar off, to be justified by the law of Moses. To be justified by law requires perfect obedience, and no one rendered such obedience. But the Jews expected their Messiah to be here on earth in person â€“ to remain here. This gospel system of righteousness by faith in Christ does not demand that he be brought down from heaven; nor does it, as if he were yet in the tomb, demand that he be brought up from the dead. It does not demand, nor require, his personal presence here on earth. But what does the gospel system of righteousness by faith say? â€œThe word is night theeâ€?; it is not a difficult matter â€“ not a matter afar off. On the evidence given by his inspired teachers, you believe in he heart that he is the Messiah, and confess that faith with the mouth. That is the word of faith which the apostles preached, and that is the way of righteousness through Christ. To believe in Christ is to recognize him for what he is â€“ to put our full trust in him; to confess him is to pledge our allegiance to him. A mere lip confession is worthless; we must acknowledge him by word and deed as our Lord â€“ our Prophet, Priest, and King, as well as our Savior. This sort of confession brings us finally to eternal life, eternal salvation." Commentary On Romans, Guardian of Truth, Foundation Publications, 420 Old Morgantown Road, Bowling Green, KY 42101. ppg 217-218

Secondly, one should always remember that the letter to the Romans was written to people who had already obeyed the gospel. It is not principally addressed to those outside of Christ and should not be used to try to proved a point unto forgiveness of sins initially.

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:

JustAChristian

August 30th, 2004, 08:39 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

I'm still waiting on your explanation of Romans 10:9, JAC. And what do you think Jesus meant when he said, "Truly, truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." [John 3:5]?

lighthouse,

This is a verse that requires one to be obedient to the gospel, the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). The fact of the new birth is stated in verse 3; here, details of it are given. There is one birth; there are two elements, â€œwater,â€?and â€œthe Spirit.â€? Thus, both are essential to the new birth; and the new birth is essential to entering the kingdom. What, then, is meant by being born of water and the Spirit? To enter the kingdom is to be saved (Col. 1:13,14). To be saved one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized for the remission of one's sins. Confess oneâ€™s faith in Christ and be baptized for the remission of sins. John 3:5 figuratively states what is literally affirmed in Acts 2:38. To be born â€œagainâ€? is simply to obey the gospel. It is not surprising that those who deny to baptism its proper place among the conditions of pardon would interpret â€œwaterâ€? in John 3:5 to mean something other than baptism; in so doing, they are in conflict with the scholarship of the world, both ancient and modern. Henry Alford, one of the translators of the American Standard Version wrote that â€œall attempts to get ridâ€? [of baptism in the passage,] â€œhave sprung from doctrinal prejudices by which the views of expositors have been warped.â€? One is begotten of the Spirit by believing the Word which the Spirit gave, and born of water by coming forth from the waters of baptism. Have a great rest of the day!

JustAChristian :angel:

JustAChristian

August 30th, 2004, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by billwald

"Man is accountable to obey (believe) the only truth which is the word of God rightly discerned (1 Thessw. 2:13). Only an unrighteous God would couse us not to know truth and to hold us accountable for that action."

First problem is that no man obeys all the truth he knows because of our sin nature.

Second, then those who misinterpret the truth are not held accountable? Including Mormons?

And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 AV)

JustAChristian

JustAChristian

August 30th, 2004, 03:23 PM

Originally posted by Nineveh

No, in fact I don't think I had a "manifestation" in the classical pagan use of the term.

Rather, no man had any say if my heart was repentant, if I accepted God, or if I was humble before God. This was between God and myself alone, as it is for everyone. No "clergy" lead me to Christ. The Law convicted me straight from the pages of Scripture.

Faith is the evidence of things unseen. Rather, I would say it's you that needs to provide an example of water changing a man's heart.

What a coincidence! It wasn't until I was humbled and repentant that the Holy Spirit baptised me! :)

"John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

I further contend the Spirit was present at the first Pentecost as well.

Out of all that, you did not address what you said which is pagan. You are implying one can "contact the spiritual" through a "ritual". That most certainly is paganism.

Rather, no man had any say if my heart was repentant, if I accepted God, or if I was humble before God. This was between God and myself alone, as it is for everyone. No "clergy" lead me to Christ. The Law convicted me straight from the pages of Scripture.

The Bible tells us to "prove all things..." (1 Thess. 5:21). Again, the Bible tell us that we are to know disciples based on the fruit they produce (Matthew 7:20). I know from study what the Bible says on obeying the gospel (Romans 1:16; 2 Thess. 1:8). I know it tells me to believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah (John 8:24). I know it tells me that I must repent of my sins (Luke 13:3-5). I know it tells me that I must confess Christ before man (Matthew 10:32-33). I know it tells me that I must be baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38). I know it tells me that I must rise from baptism to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:5). I know that it tells me that I have to endure in faith until death or until Christ returns to receive a crown of life (Rev. 2:10). With all this, I know what is expected of me in order that God will bless me with his saving grace (Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 2:11-12). My conclusion is not based on a subjective status, but a "thus saith the Lord." I can't say that I believe yours is based on a "thus saith the Lord." Would you like to prove that it is?

Faith is the evidence of things unseen. Rather, I would say it's you that needs to provide an example of water changing a man's heart.

said earlier that if you could find one example of Holy Spirit baptism for salvation you could expand upon your premise. You failed to show one single example. Instead you challenge me to show an "example of water changing a man's heart." I can not do so because water does not change one's heart. Water is the medium that God chose to exercise His cleansing and washing away of sins by the blood of Christ (Acts 22:16), and it is the "tomb" of burial as one puts off the "old man of sin." (Romans 6:3-6). Remember, God sets the parameter for salvation and we must comply to that parameter.

What a coincidence! It wasn't until I was humbled and repentant that the Holy Spirit baptised me!

You do not find any example of your conclusion. The Holy Spirit is a token of salvation not the cause of salvation. One is only saved by the grace of God through faith and is cleansed of sins by the blood of Christ. Holy Spirit baptism was never meant to be the medium of salvation.

"John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

I further contend the Spirit was present at the first Pentecost as well.

As I showed earlier, Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit to extend power to the apostles (Acts 1:8), and to the household of Cornelius to show the Jews that salvation had come to the Gentiles (Acts 10:44-48). No one is ever shown to have been baptized with the Holy Spirit for any other reason. In fact, if you look closely at the conversions of Acts, you will not see the Holy Spirit in any case except that mentioned above (The apostles in order to be equipped with power from on high, and the Household of Cornelius ). The apostles transferred the gifts of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands not Holy Spirit baptism. When John told the multitude that Jesus would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire, he did not intend that all would be baptized for there were Scribes and Pharisees, and sinner that would never repent within in an "all inclusive" parameter. Do you believe Jesus baptized the Scribes and Pharisees that came to John's baptism? The statement is definitely a limited measure baptism (of you â€“ second person plural) and not all inclusive.

The converts on Pentecost received the measure Holy Spirit as a gift (Romans 8:9). They were not baptized with the Holy Spirit

God's truth reveals His love which motivated His amazing grace and mercy to man (Eph. 2:5,6). The truth makes known the possibility of salvation, or deliverance from the world (Gal. 1:4). The truth declares both the power and our access to the cleansing blood of God's Son, the sacrifice for our sins (Rom. 6:1-6). It is hardly paganism.

Then do you understand the truth revealed through the New Testament tell you to believe Jesus is the Messiah, requires you to repent of your sins, requires that you confess Jesus as the Son of God, requires you to be baptized for the remission of sins, and requires you to walk according to the precepts of the New Testament until death or Christ returns when all that are living will be changed to immortality for judgement of the "quick and the dead?"

Out of all that, you did not address what you said which is pagan. You are implying one can "contact the spiritual" through a "ritual". That most certainly is paganism.

I only showed you what the New Testament says giving scriptural references where I felt it was needed. Your conclusion is based on the measure of your heart to receive the gospel. I regret that you see the New Testament as a "ritual" . I see it as the Will of God unto salvation(Heb. 5:8-9; Eph 6:6; Heb. 10:36).

JustAChristian :angel:

Nineveh

August 30th, 2004, 07:09 PM

JAC,

"My conclusion is not based on a subjective status, but a "thus saith the Lord." I can't say that I believe yours is based on a "thus saith the Lord." Would you like to prove that it is? "

Faith is the evidence, is it not?

1. The Bible tells us to "prove all things..." (1 Thess. 5:21)

2. the Bible tell us that we are to know disciples based on the fruit they produce (Matthew 7:20)

3. obeying the gospel (Romans 1:16; 2 Thess. 1:8)

4. I know it tells me to believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah (John 8:24)

5. I know it tells me that I must repent of my sins (Luke 13:3-5)

6. I know it tells me that I must confess Christ before man (Matthew 10:32-33)

7. I know it tells me that I must be baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38)

8. I know it tells me that I must rise from baptism to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:5)

9. I know that it tells me that I have to endure in faith until death or until Christ returns to receive a crown of life (Rev. 2:10)

I know what is expected of me in order that God will bless me with his saving grace "

You listed 9 things you must "do" "in order that God will...". What is the "Gospel"? Is it those 9 things that are "expected" of you, some? All? Which ones, if not "done" will cost your Salvation?

"I said earlier that if you could find one example of Holy Spirit baptism for salvation you could expand upon your premise."

I believe the Spirit is the one Baptism Paul speaks about saying, "There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism;..."

"I can not do so because water does not change one's heart."

I know. Nor can water make one repentant, nor can it make one accept Christ.

"Water is the medium that God chose to exercise His cleansing and washing away of sins by the blood of Christ (Acts 22:16),"

God doesn't need mediums. It's weird you use the term "medium" instead of "sacrament" or "symbol". I can't believe you would use that verse to support the idea God was choosing water. It's a story of events being related.

"Then do you understand the truth revealed through the New Testament tell you to believe Jesus is the Messiah, requires you to repent of your sins, requires that you confess Jesus as the Son of God, requires you to be baptized for the remission of sins, and requires you to walk according to the precepts of the New Testament until death or Christ returns when all that are living will be changed to immortality for judgement of the "quick and the dead?" "

I understand I needed to repent and accept Christ as my Savior. When I did, I was finally able to throw off the shackles of "religion". It took a while, but it's liberating to know I am not required or demanded to perform rituals for salvation, Christ is enough.

"I regret that you see the New Testament as a "ritual" . "

I regret you teach people it requires rituals to be a Christian.

Lighthouse

August 31st, 2004, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by JustAChristian

lighthouse,
I don't do much computer work on Sunday. I don't have much time because of my worship activities. I am posting my comments on Romans 10:9 for your consideration. It is in agreement with the writer that I quote in this posting.

First of all, a better understanding of verse nine is seen when one considers the entire context in which it is contained.

"But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed." (Romans 10:8-11 AV)

Robert Whiteside, says, â€œWe are told that the Jews spoke of a difficult or impossible thing as a thing afar off; an easy thing, as nigh. It was of impossible, a thing afar off, to be justified by the law of Moses. To be justified by law requires perfect obedience, and no one rendered such obedience. But the Jews expected their Messiah to be here on earth in person â€“ to remain here. This gospel system of righteousness by faith in Christ does not demand that he be brought down from heaven; nor does it, as if he were yet in the tomb, demand that he be brought up from the dead. It does not demand, nor require, his personal presence here on earth. But what does the gospel system of righteousness by faith say? â€œThe word is night theeâ€?; it is not a difficult matter â€“ not a matter afar off. On the evidence given by his inspired teachers, you believe in he heart that he is the Messiah, and confess that faith with the mouth. That is the word of faith which the apostles preached, and that is the way of righteousness through Christ. To believe in Christ is to recognize him for what he is â€“ to put our full trust in him; to confess him is to pledge our allegiance to him. A mere lip confession is worthless; we must acknowledge him by word and deed as our Lord â€“ our Prophet, Priest, and King, as well as our Savior. This sort of confession brings us finally to eternal life, eternal salvation." Commentary On Romans, Guardian of Truth, Foundation Publications, 420 Old Morgantown Road, Bowling Green, KY 42101. ppg 217-218

Secondly, one should always remember that the letter to the Romans was written to people who had already obeyed the gospel. It is not principally addressed to those outside of Christ and should not be used to try to proved a point unto forgiveness of sins initially.

In Christ,
JustAChristian :angel:
No kidding lip service doesn't do anything. That's why ther verse also says, "believe in your heart." Faith is not belief in the head, but belief in the heart. It is trust. And it is love. And in love there is obedience, but obedience is born out of faith, whch saves us...the obedience is an afterthought. And it has no bearing on our salvation.

Lighthouse

August 31st, 2004, 02:15 AM

Originally posted by JustAChristian

lighthouse,

This is a verse that requires one to be obedient to the gospel, the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16). The fact of the new birth is stated in verse 3; here, details of it are given. There is one birth; there are two elements, â€œwater,â€?and â€œthe Spirit.â€? Thus, both are essential to the new birth; and the new birth is essential to entering the kingdom. What, then, is meant by being born of water and the Spirit? To enter the kingdom is to be saved (Col. 1:13,14). To be saved one must believe, repent, confess and be baptized for the remission of one's sins. Confess oneâ€™s faith in Christ and be baptized for the remission of sins. John 3:5 figuratively states what is literally affirmed in Acts 2:38. To be born â€œagainâ€? is simply to obey the gospel. It is not surprising that those who deny to baptism its proper place among the conditions of pardon would interpret â€œwaterâ€? in John 3:5 to mean something other than baptism; in so doing, they are in conflict with the scholarship of the world, both ancient and modern. Henry Alford, one of the translators of the American Standard Version wrote that â€œall attempts to get ridâ€? [of baptism in the passage,] â€œhave sprung from doctrinal prejudices by which the views of expositors have been warped.â€? One is begotten of the Spirit by believing the Word which the Spirit gave, and born of water by coming forth from the waters of baptism. Have a great rest of the day!

JustAChristian :angel:
I brought this up because you said that the baptism of the Spirit was not for everyone, or for all instances of salvation. I posted this to show that it is.

Now, address this:
"Indeed, under the law almost everything was purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins."
-Hebrews 9:22

It is Christ's blood that is for the remission of our sins. And I have been baptized in that blood. That is the baptism that saved me.

Nineveh

August 31st, 2004, 10:34 AM

Acts 19:1-6
Paul in Ephesus

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

That seems an odd question to ask, unless one does receive the Spirit "when they believe".

They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"

Notice Paul asked what "baptism" they received since they didn't receive the Holy Spirit upon believing?

"John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

On hearing they needed to "believe in Christ", not the "water baptism of repentance", they were "baptized into the Name" aka the Body of Christ. I notice there is no mention of water here, only hearing what they needed to know.

When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.

Of course one could argue Paul ran out and got his hands wet, but that wasn't the way baptism was done with water at that time.

JustAChristian

August 31st, 2004, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Nineveh

My conclusion is not based on a subjective status, but a "thus saith the Lord." I can't say that I believe yours is based on a "thus saith the Lord." Would you like to prove that it is? "

Faith is the evidence, is it not?

Quote:
1. The Bible tells us to "prove all things..." (1 Thess. 5:21)

2. the Bible tell us that we are to know disciples based on the fruit they produce (Matthew 7:20)

3. obeying the gospel (Romans 1:16; 2 Thess. 1:8)

4. I know it tells me to believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah (John 8:24)

5. I know it tells me that I must repent of my sins (Luke 13:3-5)

6. I know it tells me that I must confess Christ before man (Matthew 10:32-33)

7. I know it tells me that I must be baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38)

8. I know it tells me that I must rise from baptism to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:5)

9. I know that it tells me that I have to endure in faith until death or until Christ returns to receive a crown of life (Rev. 2:10)

I know what is expected of me in order that God will bless me with his saving grace "

You listed 9 things you must "do" "in order that God will...". What is the "Gospel"? Is it those 9 things that are "expected" of you, some? All? Which ones, if not "done" will cost your Salvation?

I said earlier that if you could find one example of Holy Spirit baptism for salvation you could expand upon your premise."

I believe the Spirit is the one Baptism Paul speaks about saying, "There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism;..."

"I can not do so because water does not change one's heart."

I know. Nor can water make one repentant, nor can it make one accept Christ.

"Water is the medium that God chose to exercise His cleansing and washing away of sins by the blood of Christ (Acts 22:16),"

God doesn't need mediums. It's weird you use the term "medium" instead of "sacrament" or "symbol". I can't believe you would use that verse to support the idea God was choosing water. It's a story of events being related.

"Then do you understand the truth revealed through the New Testament tell you to believe Jesus is the Messiah, requires you to repent of your sins, requires that you confess Jesus as the Son of God, requires you to be baptized for the remission of sins, and requires you to walk according to the precepts of the New Testament until death or Christ returns when all that are living will be changed to immortality for judgement of the "quick and the dead?" "

I understand I needed to repent and accept Christ as my Savior. When I did, I was finally able to throw off the shackles of "religion". It took a while, but it's liberating to know I am not required or demanded to perform rituals for salvation, Christ is enough.

JAC - "I regret that you see the New Testament as a "ritual" . "

I regret you teach people it requires rituals to be a Christian.

JAC - My Latest Responses Are In Bold...

Quote:

"My conclusion is not based on a subjective status, but a "thus saith the Lord." I can't say that I believe yours is based on a "thus saith the Lord." Would you like to prove that it is? "

Faith is the evidence, is it not?

Faith is not just believing but something else. Jesus said, " Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21 AV) It is evident that there will be many at the judgement that believed but did not do the will of God unto salvation. Take the warning and do God's will.

Quote:

1. The Bible tells us to "prove all things..." (1 Thess. 5:21)

2. the Bible tell us that we are to know disciples based on the fruit they produce (Matthew 7:20)

3. obeying the gospel (Romans 1:16; 2 Thess. 1:8)

4. I know it tells me to believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah (John 8:24)

5. I know it tells me that I must repent of my sins (Luke 13:3-5)

6. I know it tells me that I must confess Christ before man (Matthew 10:32-33)

7. I know it tells me that I must be baptized for the remission of sins (Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38)

8. I know it tells me that I must rise from baptism to walk in newness of life (Romans 6:5)

9. I know that it tells me that I have to endure in faith until death or until Christ returns to receive a crown of life (Rev. 2:10)

I know what is expected of me in order that God will bless me with his saving grace "

You listed 9 things you must "do" "in order that God will...". What is the "Gospel"? Is it those 9 things that are "expected" of you, some? All? Which ones, if not "done" will cost your Salvation?

I could have listed many more things that I must do in my spiritual life and service, but it is all inclusive as "God's Will." The gospel is God's power (right) unto salvation to everyone that believes; to the Jew first but also to the Gentile....(who both) shall live by faith(Romans 1:16-17). All spiritual blessing (of which salvation is included) is in Christ (Ephesians 1:3). We get into Christ when we put on Christ in baptism (Galatians 3:27), when we are buried with Christ in baptism (Romans 6:3-5), when we are "born of water and the Spirit." (John 3:3-5). There are no spiritual blessings outside of the spiritual body of Christ the church of Christ (Acts 2:47; 1 Cor. 1:30). The apostles were told to preach the Gospel (Matthew 28:18-20; 1 Cor 15:1-5), a make disciples, teaching and baptizing them as a result of the gospel being preached. Which will cause a person to be lost? When one denies any portion of the will of God that person will be eternally lost. James McGarvey, a noted 19th century preacher, commenting on Matthew 7:23...

"Through life Christ appeared to them to be accepting them and approving their lives, but he now confesses that this appearance was not real. It arose from a misconception on their part and on that of others. Many works which men judge to be religious really undermine religion. The world esteems him great whose ministry begets Pharisees, but in Christ's eyes such a one is a worker of iniquity."

Quote:

"I said earlier that if you could find one example of Holy Spirit baptism for salvation you could expand upon your premise."

I believe the Spirit is the one Baptism Paul speaks about saying, "There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism;..."

Then you are practicing two baptism today, Holy Spirit and Water Baptism. This is contrary to Ephesians 4:5. You can't have two today!

Quote:

"I can not do so because water does not change one's heart."

I know. Nor can water make one repentant, nor can it make one accept Christ.

This has never been a part of my argument.

Quote:

"Water is the medium that God chose to exercise His cleansing and washing away of sins by the blood of Christ (Acts 22:16),"

God doesn't need mediums. It's weird you use the term "medium" instead of "sacrament" or "symbol". I can't believe you would use that verse to support the idea God was choosing water. It's a story of events being related.

Call it what you may. Immersion is the point chosen by God that Christ's cleansing blood affects(Acts 22:16). Likewise, as has been said by James, Faucett and Brown in their Commentary on Ephesians 5:26: "As the bride passed through a purifying bath before marriage, so the Church (compare Rev. 21:2). He speaks of baptism according to its high ideal and design, as if the inward grace accompanied the outward rite; hence he asserts of outward baptism whatever is involved in a believing appropriation of the divine truths it symbolizes, and says that Christ, by baptism, has purified the Church."

Quote:

"Then do you understand the truth revealed through the New Testament tell you to believe Jesus is the Messiah, requires you to repent of your sins, requires that you confess Jesus as the Son of God, requires you to be baptized for the remission of sins, and requires you to walk according to the precepts of the New Testament until death or Christ returns when all that are living will be changed to immortality for judgement of the "quick and the dead?" "

I understand I needed to repent and accept Christ as my Savior. When I did, I was finally able to throw off the shackles of "religion". It took a while, but it's liberating to know I am not required or demanded to perform rituals for salvation, Christ is enough.

Where do you find the phraseology, "...I need to repent and accept Christ as my Savior?" What does all that mean? Sounds all too subjective to me. Jesus said, "...and ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). Freedom consists in conformity to that which, in the realm of intellect, is called truth, and in the realm of morality, law. The only way in which we know truth is to obey it, and God's truth gives freedom from sin and death.

Quote:

"I regret that you see the New Testament as a "ritual" . "

I regret you teach people it requires rituals to be a Christian.

If you can show me that preaching one needs to hear the gospel, believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, repent of sin, confess Jesus as the Son of God, be immersed in water for the remission of sins and enduring in service to God through Christ is unbiblical then I will cease to preach it.

JustAChristian :angel:

JustAChristian

August 31st, 2004, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

No kidding lip service doesn't do anything. That's why ther verse also says, "believe in your heart." Faith is not belief in the head, but belief in the heart. It is trust. And it is love. And in love there is obedience, but obedience is born out of faith, whch saves us...the obedience is an afterthought. And it has no bearing on our salvation. Then rip Hebrews 5:8-9 out of your Bible for according to your conclusion you don't need it. Go ahead, rip it out! Rip it out!!!

Nineveh

August 31st, 2004, 03:47 PM

JAC,

"I could have listed many more things that I must do in my spiritual life and service... "

So there is even more you must do to be saved than those 9 things? Will you remain saved if you fail to do any of those things?

Then you are practicing two baptism today, Holy Spirit and Water Baptism. This is contrary to Ephesians 4:5. You can't have two today!

No, I didn't feel compelled to jump up and get wet after I repented. So I'm only practicing and promoting one baptism. Just as I only promote one Church. I hardly know you, but I know Christ, and Christ chose Paul. For spiritual guidence, I'll choose Paul's over yours.

"Call it what you may."

I don't know anyone else that refers to baptism as a "medium", you are the first I know of.

"Immersion is the point chosen by God that Christ's cleansing blood affects(Acts 22:16). "

In Acts 22:16? Paul is speaking to a crowd and you believe this is the point God "chose" a "medium"? I am truly baffled with your use of this verse to support that view, it makes no sense.

"Where do you find the phraseology, "...I need to repent and accept Christ as my Savior?"

I find the *idea* of men needing to repent and turn to God from Genesis to Revelation. I find in the NT Jesus is the Lamb prophesied who will take away the sins of the world. I see John say, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is semantics what you want to argue?

"If you can show me that preaching one needs to hear the gospel,"

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom 10:17

"believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah,"

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

"repent of sin"

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. Acts 20:21

"confess Jesus as the Son of God"

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:9

"be immersed in water for the remission of sins"

Please refer to post 56 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=584468#post584468)

"enduring in service to God through Christ"

Perhpas you could provide some verses that support this so I know what you mean by "endure".

Lighthouse

September 1st, 2004, 02:41 AM

JAC-
Does the context of Romans 9 sya that water baptism has anything to do with salvation?

JustAChristian

September 1st, 2004, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

JAC-
Does the context of Romans 9 sya that water baptism has anything to do with salvation?

lighthouse,

Not specifically, but neither does it directly cover repentance, does it? But, I am sure that you would agree that repentance is essencia before one can be saved. You've got to understand that Paul is addressing the church at Rome which had already obeyed baptism.

JustAChristian :angel:

JustAChristian

September 1st, 2004, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by Nineveh

JAC,

"I could have listed many more things that I must do in my spiritual life and service... "

So there is even more you must do to be saved than those 9 things? Will you remain saved if you fail to do any of those things?

Then you are practicing two baptism today, Holy Spirit and Water Baptism. This is contrary to Ephesians 4:5. You can't have two today!

No, I didn't feel compelled to jump up and get wet after I repented. So I'm only practicing and promoting one baptism. Just as I only promote one Church. I hardly know you, but I know Christ, and Christ chose Paul. For spiritual guidence, I'll choose Paul's over yours.

"Call it what you may."

I don't know anyone else that refers to baptism as a "medium", you are the first I know of.

"Immersion is the point chosen by God that Christ's cleansing blood affects(Acts 22:16). "

In Acts 22:16? Paul is speaking to a crowd and you believe this is the point God "chose" a "medium"? I am truly baffled with your use of this verse to support that view, it makes no sense.

"Where do you find the phraseology, "...I need to repent and accept Christ as my Savior?"

I find the *idea* of men needing to repent and turn to God from Genesis to Revelation. I find in the NT Jesus is the Lamb prophesied who will take away the sins of the world. I see John say, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is semantics what you want to argue?

"If you can show me that preaching one needs to hear the gospel,"

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom 10:17

"believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah,"

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

"repent of sin"

I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. Acts 20:21

"confess Jesus as the Son of God"

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:9

"be immersed in water for the remission of sins"

Please refer to post 56 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=584468#post584468)

"enduring in service to God through Christ"

Perhpas you could provide some verses that support this so I know what you mean by "endure".

So there is even more you must do to be saved than those 9 things? Will you remain saved if you fail to do any of those things?

The nine things I listed in my post are not all inclusive of my spiritual salvation or spiritual service. The New Testament consist of 29 books in the canon of scripture. Where there are commandments (directly made, or inferred) that apply to my spiritual life then I must include them in service to the Lord. This is because I desire to do the Lord's will and not my own. (Matthew 7:21-23).

No, I didn't feel compelled to jump up and get wet after I repented. So I'm only practicing and promoting one baptism. Just as I only promote one Church. I hardly know you, but I know Christ, and Christ chose Paul. For spiritual guidence, I'll choose Paul's over yours.

You still have not shown one example of Holy Spirit baptism for salvation. What are you waiting for? Did Paul ever baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit for salvation? Did he ever baptize anyone in the Holy Spirit? Did anyone other than Jesus ever baptize in the Holy Spirit?

I don't know anyone else that refers to baptism as a "medium", you are the first I know of.

Do you understand the purpose for a medium? It is not hard to understand. The Ethiopian eunuch saw water (Acts 8:36), and understood how important, at the time, it was. So important was that body of water that he asked what prevented him from then being baptized. Philip sensed his eagerness to obey God's will. Philip said, If you believe you can be baptized. He replied, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Then they departed the chariot, both Philip and the eunuch, they both went down into the water and Philip baptized him. Straightway the eunuch came up out of the water and went on his way rejoicing. Why, because he was taught that the blood of Christ cleanses us from sin (Ephesians 1:7; Hebrews 9:14; Acts 22:16). He knew he was now cleansed and able to celebrate by rejoicing.

In Acts 22:16? Paul is speaking to a crowd and you believe this is the point God "chose" a "medium"? I am truly baffled with your use of this verse to support that view, it makes no sense.

Yes, he is relating his conversion to a party of people. Paul is recalling his conversation at the time he was in Damascus of Syria with Ananias the preacher (Read also Acts 9). He saw the Lord Jesus on the road to Damascus. He was told by the Lord to go into the city and he would be told what he must do (Acts 9:6). He had been praying for three days but was still in his sins. He was never told that he must pray into salvation, so this is not what he was told he must do. The only thing that Ananias told him that he must do is "...arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" (Acts 22:16). What do you suppose Philip said to the eunuch that so caused him to seek an immediate baptism in the water by the wayside? If it wasn't so important, as so many believe, then why did he seek it so urgently?

I find the *idea* of men needing to repent and turn to God from Genesis to Revelation. I find in the NT Jesus is the Lamb prophesied who will take away the sins of the world. I see John say, "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son." Is semantics what you want to argue?

I find the idea of men needing to repent and turn to God from Genesis to Revelation also, but that is not the question I asked. The theme of this thread is Where does it say that man needs to repent and accept Christ as their personal savior. I asked you to explain its location. You failed to deliver. Your scriptural reference(s) does not negate the need to obey the gospel in baptism for the remission of sins one bit. Paul told Timothy to "...study to show yourself approved unto God..." ( 2 Tim. 2:15). Now, if this inspired apostle meant for us to study the meanings of words, which is exactly what I believe he meant, then I believe we should debate semantics.

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Rom 10:17

I agree.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

I agree.

have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus. Acts 20:21

I agree

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Rom 10:9

Romans 10:9 is said to the church. The church has it command to confess Christ as Lord and believe that He has been raised from the dead but not unto salvation but while they are in salvation. It is not intended for the alien sinner. You could have referenced Matthew 10:32 which includes the alien sinner.

Please refer to post 56

I don't want to sound brash or unsympathetic, but, I am rather dissapointed with your short statement. Did Jesus say to refer to post 56? There are people who are reading our posts who what a running account of your understanding of the immediate subject. They don't want to be told to check post 56. You should have given a courteous entry of your understanding of "be immersed in water for the remission of sins", not ask me and others to refer to post 56.

"enduring in service to God through Christ"

Perhpas you could provide some verses that support this so I know what you mean by "endure".

Endure and being faithful until death are two terms used in the NT and are synonymous with each other. (See Matthew 24:13, 2 Thess. 1:4, 2 Tim. 2:3, James 5:11 and Rev. 2:10 for my meaning).

In all sincerity I insert my opening statement to this thread...

Many people believe that as long as one accepts Christ as his or her personal savior, he or she will be saved. I ask the question, â€œWhat do they mean when one accepts Christ?â€? In Matthew 7:21-23, we see some people who accepted Jesus, but He never knew them. The Bible likens conversion to a marriage. In every marriage, both parties must consent to the marriage, right? Colossians 2:6 says we must accept Christ and Romans 15:7 says Christ must accept us. I ask you, "Where does the Bible make this statement? Where does it say that if one will only accept Christ as their personal savior apart from ones obedience to the gospel on matters of faith, repentance, baptism for the remission of sins and enduring to the end of life he or she will be saved? How may one be saved and not obey the gospel on matters of salvation?

JustAChristian

I will be away from this thread for a week or so. I will not have access to a computer. I have urgent business in Missouri from my home in Tennessee. Please keep me and my family in your prayers while we are away. I hope to post again by the 11th of September.

JustAChristian

September 1st, 2004, 08:56 PM

Originally posted by Nineveh

Acts 19:1-6
Paul in Ephesus

While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

That seems an odd question to ask, unless one does receive the Spirit "when they believe".

They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"

Notice Paul asked what "baptism" they received since they didn't receive the Holy Spirit upon believing?

"John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.

On hearing they needed to "believe in Christ", not the "water baptism of repentance", they were "baptized into the Name" aka the Body of Christ. I notice there is no mention of water here, only hearing what they needed to know.

When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.

Of course one could argue Paul ran out and got his hands wet, but that wasn't the way baptism was done with water at that time.

Paul was at Ephesus, Apollos having departed to Corinth. While there he met these disciples of Apollos who at an earlier time only knew the baptism of John. Paul asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit since they believed. The Holy Spirit become an inward manifestation to all baptized believer of the baptism of Christ (Acts 2:38; Romans 8:9). Since they had not known that there was a Holy Spirit to indwell them Paul reasoned that they had not been baptized with the baptism of the commission of Christ (Matthew 28:18-20). He baptized them the baptism for the remission of sin. (Acts 10:43). He then imparted the gift measure of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands as did Peter and John of Acts 8:14-17. It is simple when you understand that the gift of the Holy Spirit is for all as a surity of our salvation in Christ (Eph. 1:13-14).

JustAChristian :angel:

Good Night!! Back on or about the 11th of Sept.

Lighthouse

September 1st, 2004, 10:34 PM

Originally posted by JustAChristian

lighthouse,

Not specifically, but neither does it directly cover repentance, does it? But, I am sure that you would agree that repentance is essencia before one can be saved. You've got to understand that Paul is addressing the church at Rome which had already obeyed baptism.

JustAChristian :angel:
Repentance is an effect of salvation. It comes afterward.

Lovejoy

September 1st, 2004, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

Repentance is an effect of salvation. It comes afterward.

Is this a total depravity discussion, in which faith and repentance have to come from God? I have always found this line of discussion very interesting, and have not come to a conclusion of my own. Perhaps Luther was right, perhaps not. It has always seemed a good explanation of the "elect".

Lighthouse

September 2nd, 2004, 01:30 AM

I don't believe that faith comes from God. I just believe that repentance is an effect of salvation. Or an effect of faith. Salvation comes beofer repentance. God's grace and love effects His children...causing them to obey [morally]. For in the Spirit there is no sin, therefore, if you are in the Spirit there is no sin in you.

Nineveh

September 2nd, 2004, 01:32 PM

JAC,
"The nine things I listed in my post are not all inclusive of my spiritual salvation or spiritual service. "

That's why I asked which ones are necessary and/or which ones might cost you salvation. Care to share at this point?

"Do you understand the purpose for a medium? "

Yes, I do. I used to be a pagan

"Yes, he is relating his conversion to a party of people. "

Yes, that "he" is Paul, not introducing anything new to the crowd. Baptisms roots are much older than Paul.

"I find the idea of men needing to repent and turn to God from Genesis to Revelation also, but that is not the question I asked. '

I'm not going to argue semantics.

"Romans 10:9 is said to the church."

"The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

"Endure and being faithful until death are two terms used in the NT and are synonymous with each other."

Being faithful, as in? Enduring, as in?

"Since they had not known that there was a Holy Spirit to indwell them Paul reasoned that they had not been baptized with the baptism of the commission of Christ (Matthew 28:18-20). He baptized them the baptism for the remission of sin. "

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

"No..."

"Then what baptism did you receive?"

"John's baptism"

"John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

What you "reason" and what the Bible says aren't the same.

I will keep you in my prayers, be safe :)

LightSon

September 4th, 2004, 03:04 PM

LightSon

September 4th, 2004, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by billwald

"Accepting Christ as a personal savour" is not a biblical concept.

It is a Biblical concept. I have a ways to go to catch up in this thread and am sure others will cover the issue better than I could.

Yes it is "conventional" in a sense, just like "asking Jesus to come into your heart." So in a technical sense you may have a point.
Nevertheless:
Jesus is my savior.
I must to believe in Him (hence "accept Him" as it were the premise).
His is my savior.
And His salvation is applied to me personally (i.e. individually) and not as a function of joining some manmade group.
Surely you accept these points?

Delmar

September 4th, 2004, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

Those who accept Christ will be obedient. Those who claim to accept Christ and are not obedient did not accept Christ. Because accepting Christ means to accpet all He is, and everything He stands for. Not trying to start a fight here but it would seem to me that a lot of Christians have a pretty limited understanding of all Christ is.

Lighthouse

September 5th, 2004, 01:33 AM

If you accept Christ into your life, and He lives in you, then you have accepted all He is, even if you don't know what that "all" is. But, for the sake of understanding, I meant accepting all we do know [all that is offered us in His word].

JustAChristian

September 9th, 2004, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

Repentance is an effect of salvation. It comes afterward.

I'm back!!!!!!!!!!

Poor exegesis to say that repentance comes after salvation. Peter said, â€œRepent and be baptized for the remission of sinsâ€? in Acts 2:38. Likewise, in Acts 3:19 he commanded the listeners to â€œrepent and be converted that your sins might be blotted outâ€? In the matter of a child of God sinning within his salvation, one needs to repent when they do sin as in Simonâ€™s case (Acts 8:22), but one needs to understand that unless there was initial repentance of the heart when sins wefirst washed away (Acts 22:16) there is no salvation.

JustAChristian :angel:

â€œ...(Paul and Silas ) showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.â€? (Acts 26:20 AV)

Aimiel

September 9th, 2004, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

I don't believe that faith comes from God. I believe it does, because of this scripture: "For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." I don't believe that anyone is 'left out' of that dealing out from The Lord of their faith, but that some take it lightly, duck it or otherwise discount it.

JustAChristian

September 9th, 2004, 12:26 PM

Originally posted by Nineveh

JAC,
"The nine things I listed in my post are not all inclusive of my spiritual salvation or spiritual service. "

That's why I asked which ones are necessary and/or which ones might cost you salvation. Care to share at this point?

"Do you understand the purpose for a medium? "

Yes, I do. I used to be a pagan

"Yes, he is relating his conversion to a party of people. "

Yes, that "he" is Paul, not introducing anything new to the crowd. Baptisms roots are much older than Paul.

"I find the idea of men needing to repent and turn to God from Genesis to Revelation also, but that is not the question I asked. '

I'm not going to argue semantics.

"Romans 10:9 is said to the church."

"The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

"Endure and being faithful until death are two terms used in the NT and are synonymous with each other."

Being faithful, as in? Enduring, as in?

"Since they had not known that there was a Holy Spirit to indwell them Paul reasoned that they had not been baptized with the baptism of the commission of Christ (Matthew 28:18-20). He baptized them the baptism for the remission of sin. "

"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

"No..."

"Then what baptism did you receive?"

"John's baptism"

"John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

What you "reason" and what the Bible says aren't the same.

I will keep you in my prayers, be safe :)

Thanks to all who kept us in your prayers. It is great to be baxk home.

Where does the bible say that one should or must accept Jesus as their "personal savior?" Many use this expression and discount the real important thing which is obedience to the gospel (Romans 1:16; Romans 10:16). They believe and teach that the Holy Spirit is effective in salvation when the bible speaks nothing to this. They believe that repentance comes after salvation when the bible plainly teaches that one must repent before baptism (Acts 2:38; 3:19). In fact, they fail to give water baptism its proper place at all.

Are we baptized in the name of Jesus Christ in water or the Spirit? Everyone understands that Jesus was referring to water baptism when He commanded the apostles to, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you..." (Matthew 28:19-20). When Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize in water in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit, we should not be surprised to see Peter commanding water baptism in the name of the Son.

In Acts 8, we are told of Philip teaching the Samaritans
about Jesus. In verse twelve, the Samaritans were baptized when they believed what Philip taught. Later in the text
we can read, "Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit" (Acts 8:14-17). Notice why Peter and John prayed for the Samaritans to receive the Holy Spirit. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus!
Baptism "in the name of the Lord" cannot be Spirit baptism, otherwise the apostles would not have had to come to Samaria to lay their hands on them so they could receive the Spirit! The only alternative is that baptism "in the name of the Lord" is water baptism, and Peter taught that we are to be baptized in the name of the Lord for the remission of sins. In Acts 19, the apostle Paul met twelve men in Ephesus who had only been baptized into John's baptism. He taught them about Jesus and
we are told, "When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied" (Acts 19:5-6).

Once again, we need to notice the order of events. The twelve disciples of Apollos were first baptized "in the name of the Lord Jesus," and afterwards, the apostle Paul laid his hands on them so they could receive the Holy Spirit. If baptism "in the name of the Lord" is Spirit baptism, then why did Paul have to lay his hands on them and give them the Spirit? The claim that baptism "in the name of the Lord" is Spirit baptism is false. Baptism for the remission of sins in the name of the Lord can only be water baptism. Those who argue that it is Holy Spirit baptism are refusing to accept the plain simple words of an inspired apostle of Jesus Christ.

I trust you will not be quick now to discount the purpose of water baptism and will continue to study the subject.

JustAChristian