Limited Atonement

[natewood3]

What is everyone's view concerning limited atonement? Did Christ really provide salvation for all or did He secure the salvation of His elect only? What are the arguments for or against?

I personally hold that the Bible teaches a definite and limited atonement...

[Jerry Shugart]

natewood3,

First of all,it is a mistake to use the word "atonement" to refer to the Lord's work on the Cross.It was the priests under the Law who made "atonement" for the children of Israel (Lev.16:30) and it is the Lord Jesus Christ in His role as "High Priest" Who is making atonement now for all those who believe:

"...that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God,to make atonement for the sins of the people"(Heb.2:17).

Now back to your original thought.Was the death of the Lord Jesus "limited" to only some men?

Of course not.His death provided a "reconciliation" between God and all men.That is the "free gift" that comes unto all men:

"...even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"(Ro.5:18).

The "reconciliation" made possible by the death of God comes to all men,and that reconciliation leads to justification.However,the sinner must come into that reconciliation by faith--"justified by faith":

"Now,then,we are ambassadors for Christ,as though God did beseech you by us;we beg you in Christ's stead,be ye reconciled to God"(2Cor.5:20).

The "reconciliation" between God and all men was made possible by the Cross:

"And,having made peace through the blood of His cross,by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself--by Him,I say,whether they be things in earth,or things in heaven"(Col.1:20).

The death of Christ provided a reconciliation for all men,but only those who come within this reconciliation by faith reap the benefits of His death.So there was nothing "limited" about the Lord's death upon the Cross.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

natewood3,

First of all,it is a mistake to use the word "atonement" to refer to the Lord's work on the Cross.It was the priests under the Law who made "atonement" for the children of Israel (Lev.16:30) and it is the Lord Jesus Christ in His role as "High Priest" Who is making atonement now for all those who believe:

"...that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God,to make atonement for the sins of the people"(Heb.2:17).

Now back to your original thought.Was the death of the Lord Jesus "limited" to only some men?

Of course not.His death provided a "reconciliation" between God and all men.That is the "free gift" that comes unto all men:

"...even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"(Ro.5:18).

The "reconciliation" made possible by the death of God comes to all men,and that reconciliation leads to justification.However,the sinner must come into that reconciliation by faith--"justified by faith":

"Now,then,we are ambassadors for Christ,as though God did beseech you by us;we beg you in Christ's stead,be ye reconciled to God"(2Cor.5:20).

The "reconciliation" between God and all men was made possible by the Cross:

"And,having made peace through the blood of His cross,by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself--by Him,I say,whether they be things in earth,or things in heaven"(Col.1:20).

The death of Christ provided a reconciliation for all men,but only those who come within this reconciliation by faith reap the benefits of His death.So there was nothing "limited" about the Lord's death upon the Cross.

In His grace,--Jerry
Jerry,

If Christ's blood that was shed on the cross did not actually save us, but merely provides a 'way', then what saves us?

And another thing; if Christ's blood was shed for everyone on this planet, then why do people still go to hell? Again, this is assuming that His blood is what saves us in the first place. But since you do not believe that, I'd be interested in hearing what you do believe saves us from our sins...

[billwald]

I propose that it doesn't matter. The Creator of the universe will do what is right.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Z Man
If Christ's blood that was shed on the cross did not actually save us, but merely provides a 'way', then what saves us?
Z Man,

I never said that His death did not save those who believe the gospel.
And another thing; if Christ's blood was shed for everyone on this planet, then why do people still go to hell?
I said that the death of Christ provided a "reconciliation" for all men.However,for a man to obtain the benefits of that death he must come within that reconciliation by faith.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
I said that the death of Christ provided a "reconciliation" for all men. However, for a man to obtain the benefits of that death he must come within that reconciliation by faith. It's a wide bridge that only makes it halfway across the valley. It's salvation by "some" grace, but only as far as grace goes. But we don't have the strength to jump that far.

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom. 5.6)

[Jerry Shugart]

ilyatur,

You quoted me out of context.You said:
It's a wide bridge that only makes it halfway across the valley. It's salvation by "some" grace, but only as far as grace goes. But we don't have the strength to jump that far.

"You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly." (Rom. 5.6)
However,you failed to even attempt to address the words of Paul where he speaks of the free gift that comes upon "all men":

His death provided a "reconciliation" between God and all men.That is the "free gift" that comes unto all men:

"...even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"(Ro.5:18).

The "reconciliation" made possible by the death of God comes to all men,and that reconciliation leads to justification.However,the sinner must come into that reconciliation by faith--"justified by faith":

"Now,then,we are ambassadors for Christ,as though God did beseech you by us;we beg you in Christ's stead,be ye reconciled to God"(2Cor.5:20).

The "reconciliation" between God and all men was made possible by the Cross:

"And,having made peace through the blood of His cross,by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself--by Him,I say,whether they be things in earth,or things in heaven"(Col.1:20).

The death of Christ provided a reconciliation for all men,but only those who come within this reconciliation by faith reap the benefits of His death.So there was nothing "limited" about the Lord's death upon the Cross.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Mr. Coffee]

Jerry,

The word "all" means different things in Scripture, depending on context.

Matt 3:1-6 All Judea was baptized.
Matt 10:17-22 All men will hate the apostles.
Mark 1:37 KJV "All men are looking for you."
Luke 6:26 "All men speak well of you." Every man without exception?
Acts 17:30 "God commands all men everywhere to repent." Wherever the Gospel is preached, repentance is to be preached.
Rom 5:12 All without exception die because all without exception have sinned.
Rom 5:18 Are all men justified by Christ?
Rom 11:26 "All Israel will be saved."
Rom 11:32 "that He might have mercy on all" F.F. Bruce says this "all" means "all without distinction, but not all without exception."
1Co 12:12-13 "All" means every individual in this context.
Eph 3:9 Did Paul make all see?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Z Man,

I never said that His death did not save those who believe the gospel.
Which 'action' does the saving; His death, or our belief?
I said that the death of Christ provided a "reconciliation" for all men.However,for a man to obtain the benefits of that death he must come within that reconciliation by faith.

In His grace,--Jerry
In other words, what you are saying is that Christ only provided a way to salvation; He never actually saved anyone. I guess that part is left up to us...



The following is an excerpt from John Piper's website, Desiring God Ministries, concerning the term 'limited atonement'. I pray you find it useful in understanding my opinion on the matter:

The term "limited atonement" addresses the question, "For whom did Christ die?" But behind the question of the extent of the atonement lies the equally important question about the nature of the atonement. What did Christ actually achieve on the cross for those for whom he died?

If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. In the first case you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy—IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God.

For if Christ died for all men in the same way then he did not purchase regenerating grace for those who are saved. They must regenerate themselves and bring themselves to faith. Then and only then do they become partakers of the benefits of the cross.

In other words if you believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren't. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to save ourselves from the bondage of sin, the hardness of heart, the blindness of corruption, and the wrath of God.

Therefore it becomes evident that it is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement. It is the Arminian, because he denies that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need—namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. The Arminian limits the nature and value and effectiveness of the atonement so that he can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.

On the other hand we do not limit the power and effectiveness of the atonement. We simply say that in the cross God had in view the actual redemption of his children. And we affirm that when Christ died for these, he did not just create the opportunity for them to save themselves, but really purchased for them all that was necessary to get them saved, including the grace of regeneration and the gift of faith.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

Jerry,

If Christ's blood that was shed on the cross did not actually save us, but merely provides a 'way', then what saves us?

And another thing; if Christ's blood was shed for everyone on this planet, then why do people still go to hell? Again, this is assuming that His blood is what saves us in the first place. But since you do not believe that, I'd be interested in hearing what you do believe saves us from our sins...

Is Jesus the way of salvation?

well, what does the bible say?

John 14
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

sounds like Jesus is the way to me......

but what actually saves us? how do we become righteous?

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Romans 3:22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Faith is what saves us Z Man. it saved abraham, it saved Isaiah and it saves us today. the death is the reason, however, why we can be saved by faith. without the death of Jesus (and resurrection of course), faith is futile.

a question for you Z Man,

Romans 5:6
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

who are the ungodly, Z Man?

In Christ,

GIT

P.S. welcome back from your mission trip!!

[godrulz]

Originally posted by natewood3

What is everyone's view concerning limited atonement? Did Christ really provide salvation for all or did He secure the salvation of His elect only? What are the arguments for or against?

I personally hold that the Bible teaches a definite and limited atonement...

Limited atonement limits the love of God to the elect, while He consigns many more to hell (reprobation) for His good pleasure?! It is part of the planks of Calvinism (TULIP) and is not self-evident from Scripture. It is an attempt to reconcile God's sovereignty as absolutely controlling (rather than providential) with the fact that all men are not saved in the end (universalism). If sovereignty was properly understood, and relevant Scriptures soundly exegeted, I believe limited atonement (or whatever you want to call the concept) would be indefensible.

This opens the whole can of worms about Calvinism vs Arminianism/Open Theism, which has been flogged on other threads. The cross is provisional for everyone, but efficacious/applicable only for those who have repentant faith (conditions). Practically, it is limited to the elect, but the elect includes whosoever will come in response to God's love (vs arbitrary election in eternity before they were born). Corporate vs individual election is taught in Ephesians 1 (Church) and Romans 9-11 (Israel).


Jn. 3:16 "For God so loved the WORLD (not just elect)...that WHOEVER believes in Him..."

(Calvinists do mental gymnastics with this verse to support a preconceived theology).

I Tim. 2:4 "...who wants ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth..." (this is self-evident for an impartial, holy, just, loving God).

2 Peter 3:9 "..He is patient with you, not wanting ANYONE to perish, but EVERYONE to come to repentance." (again self-evident based on the nature and character of God).

[Lighthouse]

The work of Christ, on the cross, and what it accomplished for all men can only be applied [is limited] to those who respond to it. Grace is offerd to all, just as is God's love, eternal life and forgiveness. But those who deny, reject or ignore these things have consigned themselves to hell. God did not, nor would He, predestine who and who would not respond at any time in the history of existence. For Calvinism to work God would have had to predetermine all activity throughout all time from the beginning of His existence. But if God simply existed, and has always existed, when did He predetermine anything? As you can plainly see, unless your head is stuck...in the sand...predestination/predetermination [in the Calvinist view] is illogical, unlikely and just plain nonsensical.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by lighthouse

The work of Christ, on the cross, and what it accomplished for all men can only be applied [is limited] to those who respond to it. Grace is offerd to all, just as is God's love, eternal life and forgiveness. But those who deny, reject or ignore these things have consigned themselves to hell. God did not, nor would He, predestine who and who would not respond at any time in the history of existence. For Calvinism to work God would have had to predetermine all activity throughout all time from the beginning of His existence. But if God simply existed, and has always existed, when did He predetermine anything? As you can plainly see, unless your head is stuck...in the sand...predestination/predetermination [in the Calvinist view] is illogical, unlikely and just plain nonsensical.

Correctomongo. Calvinism was developed later in Church history and is not based on inductive study or sound exegesis of Scripture. It contradicts the revealed character of God, making Him a control freak. Determinism is not much different than fatalism (Islam, etc.).

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by lighthouse

The work of Christ, on the cross, and what it accomplished for all men can only be applied [is limited] to those who respond to it. Grace is offerd to all, just as is God's love, eternal life and forgiveness. But those who deny, reject or ignore these things have consigned themselves to hell. If Christ has done as much for the damned in hell as he has for the saved in heaven, what has he done? What makes a difference--man's decision? But his love is effective. At the cross, sovereign love changed us, and saved us from ourselves.

All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him. (Is. 53.6)

[godrulz]

Love is not coercion. He does not arbitrarily save or force Himself on some, while withholding saving grace from others. God's provision is complete and efficacious, but it must be appropriated. This does not make it less of a free gift, nor salvation by works. It does not usurp God in any way. Man is culpable for rejecting the precious gift and gift-Giver.

cf. If a doctor had the cure for Aids or Cancer, and freely offered it to every sick person, he would not be at fault if the patient exercised his medical-legal right of treatment (freedom to chose; consent). Jesus is the cure to eternal death, but many stupidly refuse the antidote. Repentant faith is a condition for God to freely forgive the sinner. Jesus wept over the lost, but THEY refused to come to Him that they would have abundant and eternal life. This is a sad commentary on the rebellion of man, not on the limitation of God's love or efficacious provision (death/resurrection of Christ).

[STONE]

Originally posted by lighthouse

The work of Christ, on the cross, and what it accomplished for all men can only be applied [is limited] to those who respond to it. Grace is offerd to all, just as is God's love, eternal life and forgiveness. But those who deny, reject or ignore these things have consigned themselves to hell.
This is true.


God did not, nor would He, predestine who and who would not respond at any time in the history of existence. For Calvinism to work God would have had to predetermine all activity throughout all time from the beginning of His existence. But if God simply existed, and has always existed, when did He predetermine anything? As you can plainly see, unless your head is stuck...in the sand...predestination/predetermination [in the Calvinist view] is illogical, unlikely and just plain nonsensical.
I do not know Calvin, however what do these mean?

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Could these mean God knew who he would draw to Christ?

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Z Man
Which 'action' does the saving; His death, or our belief?
Z Man,

The answer is "both".The sinner is "justified by blood"(Ro.5:9) and "justified by faith"(Ro.5:1).

The "gospel" is "the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believeth"(Ro.1:16).
In other words, what you are saying is that Christ only provided a way to salvation; He never actually saved anyone. I guess that part is left up to us...
Do you deny that salvation only comes to them who "believe"?
The following is an excerpt from John Piper's website, Desiring God Ministries, concerning the term 'limited atonement'....What did Christ actually achieve on the cross for those for whom he died?
The Cross provided a reconciliation between God and sinful man.That is the free gift that comes unto "all men"(Ro.5:18).

In HIs grace,--Jerry

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by ilyatur
Jerry,

The word "all" means different things in Scripture, depending on context.
ilyatur,

Of course you must say this or else you would be forced to deny that the "reconcilisation" made possible by the Cross came to "all men":

"...by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"(Ro.5:18).

However,if this "reconciliation" was only for "some men" then why would Paul say that it is for "all things...whether they be things in earth,or things in heaven"?:

"And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven"(Col.1:20).

These verses demonstrate conclusively that the death of the Lord was for all men,but only those who "believe" will receive the benefits of His death.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by ilyatur

If Christ has done as much for the damned in hell as he has for the saved in heaven, what has he done?
He has done all He can, with all He is. Outside of usurping the free will He gave us, there is nothing left for Him to do.

What makes a difference--man's decision?
Yes.

But his love is effective. At the cross, sovereign love changed us, and saved us from ourselves.
Yes. But there are those who refuse to accept this. They refuse to to be affected.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by STONE

I do not know Calvin, however what do these mean?

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Could these mean God knew who he would draw to Christ?
Where are those verses located? Tell me that, and then I will discuss them with you.

[STONE]

Jn 6:44, 1Pet 1:2
The question is open to everyone.

[keypurr]

Jonh 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father

1 Peter 1 :2Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stone's Question
Could these mean God knew who he would draw to Christ?

Could these mean God knew who he would COULD to Christ?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Is Jesus the way of salvation?

well, what does the bible say?

John 14
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

sounds like Jesus is the way to me......
Nobody is refuting that. No Christian would...
but what actually saves us? how do we become righteous?
Those are two totally different things. Our righteousness isn't our salvation.

What saves us is the work Christ did at calvary. How we become righteous is through sanctification, which begins after we are 'born again'.
Faith is what saves us Z Man. it saved abraham, it saved Isaiah and it saves us today. the death is the reason, however, why we can be saved by faith. without the death of Jesus (and resurrection of course), faith is futile.
I'm not saying that we can be saved apart from faith. I'm saying that Christ died specifically for those who DO have faith, and no one else.

Would you take a bullet for someone already marked for death? In the same sense, why would God die for those in hell? What good did that accomplish?
a question for you Z Man,

Romans 5:6
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

who are the ungodly, Z Man?
Me.
P.S. welcome back from your mission trip!!
Thanks. Good to be back! :thumb:

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

The Cross provided a reconciliation between God and sinful man.That is the free gift that comes unto "all men"(Ro.5:18).
Which brings us back to the same question:

If the Cross only provided a reconciliation between God and sinful man, what must a person muster up inside themselves to be saved?

"For if Christ died for all men in the same way then he did not purchase regenerating grace for those who are saved. They must regenerate themselves and bring themselves to faith. Then and only then do they become partakers of the benefits of the cross.

In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, [you] must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity."

- John Piper

[godrulz]

Piper is a Calvinist and wrongly assumes that regeneration precedes repentant faith. The biblical evidence seems to be that we believe, repent, and respond to the truth of the Word and conviction of the Spirit through the instrumentality of the Gospel persuasively preached with love and power. When we yield, we are gloriously saved by the power of God. This allows for free will and full responsibility of man to receive or reject Christ. It is not a work or self-saving. It allows for God to love the 'world' and not just the elect. It makes the cross fully available and effective for everyone (as God intended).

[Z Man]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Grace is offered to all, just as is God's love, eternal life and forgiveness.
Are you sure about that?

John 12:37-41
But although [Jesus] had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke: "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?" Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again: "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, Lest they should see with their eyes, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them." These things Isaiah said when he saw His glory and spoke of Him.

Romans 11:1-10
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, "Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life"? But what does the divine response say to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work. What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. Just as it is written: "God has given them a spirit of stupor, Eyes that they should not see And ears that they should not hear, To this very day." And David says: "Let their table become a snare and a trap, A stumbling block and a recompense to them. Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see, And bow down their back always."

2 Corinthians 4:3-6
But even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus' sake. For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. (God shone the light in their hearts so they would know Christ. Seems that God hasn't done that for everyone; He's decided to keep them in the 'dark'...)

Matthew 11:25-30
At that time Jesus answered and said, "I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight. All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Deuteronomy 29:2-4
Now Moses called all Israel and said to them: "You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land--the great trials which your eyes have seen, the signs, and those great wonders. Yet the Lord has not given you a heart to perceive and eyes to see and ears to hear, to this very day.



God's grace is not revealed to everyone, but to whomever He so chooses to reveal it to. God offers His grace to anyone (Jew, Gentile, black, white, male, female), not everyone.
But those who deny, reject or ignore these things have consigned themselves to hell.
Who HASN'T rejected or ignored God? What makes you think you're different from any of them?


Romans 3:9-12
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one."
God did not, nor would He, predestine who and who would not respond at any time in the history of existence.
What Bible have you been reading lately?

Proverbs 16:4
The Lord has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Jeremiah 1:5
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

[godrulz]

Originally posted by STONE

Jn 6:44, 1Pet 1:2
The question is open to everyone.

I Peter 1:2 is often translated with a Calvinistic bent. Check a Greek interlinear for alternate translations. This verse refers to corporate election of the Church, which is composed of all who believe. It does not explictly teach individual election (that God from eternity past choses some for heaven and some for hell even before the individuals exist to make responsible choices. Love is not coercive nor arbitrary).

Jn. 6 is a classic proof text for Calvinism that has a better alternate understanding when carefully exegeted. Minimally, God must draw people to be saved. Some people who are convicted move on to conversion. Other people quench and resist the Spirit and wait years before they surrender (e.g. Muslims in other countries). Some never submit, despite the Father drawing them. This passage does not explicitly teach irresistible grace (contrary to love and free will). This is another TULIP assumption that does not stand up to close scrutiny.

Acts 17:32-34 In response to the preaching of the Gospel (Resurrection) some sneered, some said we want to hear more, and other believed. The condition of the heart and will are a factor in addition to the conviction of the Spirit and Word.

[STONE]

Originally posted by keypurr
Stone's Question
Could these mean God knew who he would draw to Christ?

Could these mean God knew who he COULD draw to Christ?
Very perceptive.
Exactly keypurr, Which is it?

Who God will draw, or
Who is able to be drawn?

"At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him"

This should answer Godrulz post above also, unless he has a specific question needing scripture.

[natewood3]

I have read through the posts, and I am not going to reply to each person who disagrees with me, but I will say some things.

The point of limited atonement, definite atonement, or particular redemption, whatever you like to call it, is NOT that Christ did not die for everybody; rather, the point is that Christ died with the intent and purpose of saving those whom the Father has given to Him.

Now, I am fully aware that when I say that people are going to hate me and totally disagree with me. However, I feel that is what the Bible teaches throughout the Scriptures, not just here and there. I also am aware that I assume total depravity, unconditional election, effectual grace, and the sovereignty of God in salvation. I do not apologize at all for those assumptions, because I do not at all or in any way think they are just assumptions; I think they are the Word of God.

I believe in total depravity because Romans 3:11 says, "No one understands; no one seeks for God," and because Jesus said in John 6:44, " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." I don't think it could be anymore clear that all those who believe will be raised up the last day, and all those whom the Father draws will be raised up the last day, therefore we must affirm God's grace and call and drawing is effectual in that all those whom He calls or draws will certainly and freely and willfully believe in Christ. Irresistable grace simply means how can we NOT come to Christ when we see Him in His beauty and glory and greatness, after God has revealed Him to us and shined light into our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of Christ.

Concerning the sovereignty of God, I am not going to even argue about it. I have been so convinced of it through Romans 8-11, Ephesians 1, and many, many more passages in the Old and New Testaments. So I will not argue about the sovereignty of God, for the Lord in heaven does as He pleases and no one can restrain His purposes or thwart His will or say, "What have you done?" or answer back to God.
(I greatly applaud Z Man for quoting all of the Scriptures he did; the Bible says what it says).

Now, concerning the work of our Lord. It has been said that God has wrought reconciliation through the cross for ALL MANKIND. Because of our sin, we are totally separated from God and need to be reconciled and brought back to fellowship with Him. However, "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18-19). Paul teaches in Romans 5:10, “For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.� It could be not be more apparent and plain that all those who have been reconciled will be saved by His life. Once we are reconciled to God, then we have peace with God, and God does not impute our sins to us. Romans 4:8 states that “blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.� Therefore, we must conclude that Jesus Christ died and actually secured the reconciliation of the elect because all those reconciled through the death of Christ will be saved because Christ lives. We must also conclude that Christ did not die to effect reconciliation for the whole world, because if He did, then the whole world would be saved by His life.

Now, I know what I just said will be taken out of context and misapplied and people will add words into my words and completely misunderstand me. Do not think for one second that is salvation and reconciliation is not AVAILABLE FOR ALL PEOPLE. Christ died so that "whoever believes will be saved." I do not ever deny that. The death of Christ is sufficient to save a billion worlds. However, I do not think that was His intent when He died. In something I wrote recently, I said this concerning the intent of the cross and purpose of the cross:

God has one ultimate goal and end of all things: to make His glory known, seen, and praised above all things; this is the testimony of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. In order for God to make His glory seen and savored, He chosen a special people for Himself to declare and make known His glory and exceeding greatness (1 Pet. 2:9). However, the people God chose were utterly corrupt and rebellious, so God sent Christ into the world to purify and save those people whom He had given to Him (Tit. 2:14; Matt. 1:21; John 6:39). The Father must draw to Himself each one of those for whom Christ would and did die (John 6:44). In order for God to save each one whom He had chosen, He must spare the whole of humanity “so that they might have an opportunity to repent, and also so that they would bear children and enable subsequent generations to live and then hear the gospel and repent.� The blessings on the whole of humanity serve to the greater end of saving God’s special chosen people to the greatest end of glorifying God forever (Eph. 1:6, 12). The blessings to the non-elect are incidental blessings to serve to a greater end, which will all in turn eventually glorify God to the maximum so that even “the wrath of man shall praise Him� (Ps. 76:10). Hence, I conclude this is not a twofold purpose of God, but one great, magnificent, unsearchable, and unthinkable purpose of God to glorify Himself as the all-sufficient, all-satisfying, infinitely glorious and beautiful God.

Therefore, do not assume I do not believe God did not love the non-elect or do nothing for them on the cross, because I do. I just do not believe Christ died for everybody in the SAME WAY AND SAME SENSE because Christ is the "Savior of the world, ESPECIALLY of those who believe."

[Z Man]

Originally posted by natewood3

I have read through the posts, and I am not going to reply to each person who disagrees with me, but I will say some things.

The point of limited atonement, definite atonement, or particular redemption, whatever you like to call it, is NOT that Christ did not die for everybody; rather, the point is that Christ died with the intent and purpose of saving those whom the Father has given to Him.

Now, I am fully aware that when I say that people are going to hate me and totally disagree with me. However, I feel that is what the Bible teaches throughout the Scriptures, not just here and there. I also am aware that I assume total depravity, unconditional election, effectual grace, and the sovereignty of God in salvation. I do not apologize at all for those assumptions, because I do not at all or in any way think they are just assumptions; I think they are the Word of God.

I believe in total depravity because Romans 3:11 says, "No one understands; no one seeks for God," and because Jesus said in John 6:44, " No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." I don't think it could be anymore clear that all those who believe will be raised up the last day, and all those whom the Father draws will be raised up the last day, therefore we must affirm God's grace and call and drawing is effectual in that all those whom He calls or draws will certainly and freely and willfully believe in Christ. Irresistable grace simply means how can we NOT come to Christ when we see Him in His beauty and glory and greatness, after God has revealed Him to us and shined light into our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of Christ.

Concerning the sovereignty of God, I am not going to even argue about it. I have been so convinced of it through Romans 8-11, Ephesians 1, and many, many more passages in the Old and New Testaments. So I will not argue about the sovereignty of God, for the Lord in heaven does as He pleases and no one can restrain His purposes or thwart His will or say, "What have you done?" or answer back to God.
(I greatly applaud Z Man for quoting all of the Scriptures he did; the Bible says what it says).

Now, concerning the work of our Lord. It has been said that God has wrought reconciliation through the cross for ALL MANKIND. Because of our sin, we are totally separated from God and need to be reconciled and brought back to fellowship with Him. However, "God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation" (2 Cor. 5:18-19). Paul teaches in Romans 5:10, “For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.� It could be not be more apparent and plain that all those who have been reconciled will be saved by His life. Once we are reconciled to God, then we have peace with God, and God does not impute our sins to us. Romans 4:8 states that “blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.� Therefore, we must conclude that Jesus Christ died and actually secured the reconciliation of the elect because all those reconciled through the death of Christ will be saved because Christ lives. We must also conclude that Christ did not die to effect reconciliation for the whole world, because if He did, then the whole world would be saved by His life.

Now, I know what I just said will be taken out of context and misapplied and people will add words into my words and completely misunderstand me. Do not think for one second that is salvation and reconciliation is not AVAILABLE FOR ALL PEOPLE. Christ died so that "whoever believes will be saved." I do not ever deny that. The death of Christ is sufficient to save a billion worlds. However, I do not think that was His intent when He died. In something I wrote recently, I said this concerning the intent of the cross and purpose of the cross:

God has one ultimate goal and end of all things: to make His glory known, seen, and praised above all things; this is the testimony of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. In order for God to make His glory seen and savored, He chosen a special people for Himself to declare and make known His glory and exceeding greatness (1 Pet. 2:9). However, the people God chose were utterly corrupt and rebellious, so God sent Christ into the world to purify and save those people whom He had given to Him (Tit. 2:14; Matt. 1:21; John 6:39). The Father must draw to Himself each one of those for whom Christ would and did die (John 6:44). In order for God to save each one whom He had chosen, He must spare the whole of humanity “so that they might have an opportunity to repent, and also so that they would bear children and enable subsequent generations to live and then hear the gospel and repent.� The blessings on the whole of humanity serve to the greater end of saving God’s special chosen people to the greatest end of glorifying God forever (Eph. 1:6, 12). The blessings to the non-elect are incidental blessings to serve to a greater end, which will all in turn eventually glorify God to the maximum so that even “the wrath of man shall praise Him� (Ps. 76:10). Hence, I conclude this is not a twofold purpose of God, but one great, magnificent, unsearchable, and unthinkable purpose of God to glorify Himself as the all-sufficient, all-satisfying, infinitely glorious and beautiful God.

Therefore, do not assume I do not believe God did not love the non-elect or do nothing for them on the cross, because I do. I just do not believe Christ died for everybody in the SAME WAY AND SAME SENSE because Christ is the "Savior of the world, ESPECIALLY of those who believe."
Amen. Good job! :thumb:

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

Nobody is refuting that. No Christian would...


i learned not to assume things about people anymore. glad to see we are totally in agreement about that. it wasn't a critical part in my post as is.


Those are two totally different things. Our righteousness isn't
our salvation.

can you please explain then how they are different?


What saves us is the work Christ did at calvary. How we become righteous is through sanctification, which begins after we are 'born again'.

so until we have been fully sanctified, none of us have been declared righteous yet?

Romans 4:3
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

so was abraham not declared righteous, immediately after this was stated back in Genesis?



I'm not saying that we can be saved apart from faith. I'm saying that Christ died specifically for those who DO have faith, and no one else.

do your great, great, great grandchildren have faith right now Z Man? of course not. because they don't exist. did you have faith when Jesus died? no, cause you didn't exist then either. so if Jesus only died for those who DO have faith, then only those who were living at the time Jesus died, could have been saved. i know this is not your position. but it is what you have stated, thus you need to restate your point more clearly.


Would you take a bullet for someone already marked for death? In the same sense, why would God die for those in hell? What good did that accomplish?

i think it proves just how much God loves everyone. he doesn't have "favorites". he loves us all and has offered us all a way to be saved.


Me.

you are the only ungodly person to ever live? :confused:


Thanks. Good to be back! :thumb:

this place was getting kinda quiet without you around here ;)

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by natewood3
It has been said that God has wrought reconciliation through the cross for ALL MANKIND.
natewood3,

I do not see how anyone woul deny that the Cross provided a "reconciliation" for ALL MANKIND.It is "reconciliation" that is the free gift to "all men":

"...by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"(Ro.5:18).

We can see from Paul's words at another place that this reconciliation is in fact for all men:

"And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven"(Col.1:20).

You seem to be under the imprssion that "reconciliation" is not the free gift that comes to "all men" of which Paul speaks of at Romans 5:18.If that gift is not "reconciliation",then what is it?

In His grace,--Jerry

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by natewood3


Now, I am fully aware that when I say that people are going to hate me

i may disagree with your doctrine until my grave but i shall not hate you personally. if you are a christian, then you are my brother in Christ and as such you are loved. we both agree that Christ did indeed die for you, even if we disgaree on the rest of the world.

we may have different theolgoies, but we agree on the essentials. and that's the important part. :thumb:

[natewood3]

God_Is_Truth,

You are right. If you are a Christian, then I should consider you my brother and vice versa. Sometimes in these debates we forget these things...I have no problem at all if you disagree with me. If you do, that is your business, but beware, I will speak my opinion, but I will try to do it in a Christlike and Christian manner; if I am not, please tell me.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

so until we have been fully sanctified, none of us have been declared righteous yet?
Romans 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


In God's eyes, when we are saved, we are righteous. When He looks at us, He sees His Son. We are perfect already in His eyes, yet, at the same time, His Spirit is always working in us to sanctify us and make us that much more 'righteous'...
Romans 4:3
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

so was abraham not declared righteous, immediately after this was stated back in Genesis?
You want me to contridict the Bible? Of course I don't agree with that. Romans 4:3 says what it says. The whole topic Paul is discussing in that chapter is the fact that the law doesn't matter; Abraham's faith is what was accounted for righteousness - not whether he upheld the law perfectly or not.
do your great, great, great grandchildren have faith right now Z Man? of course not. because they don't exist. did you have faith when Jesus died? no, cause you didn't exist then either. so if Jesus only died for those who DO have faith, then only those who were living at the time Jesus died, could have been saved.
If you honestly believe that, then Jesus's death only covered the sins of those alive at the time, because we didn't exist yet, so neither did our sins. Therefore, Christ couldn't have died for them. We're still lost...

I guess God has to come down every generation to die for their sins...
i know this is not your position. but it is what you have stated, thus you need to restate your point more clearly.
Maybe I should of said:

"I'm not saying that we can be saved apart from faith. I'm saying that Christ died specifically for those who DO/WOULD have faith, and no one else."

Better?
Originally posted by Z Man

Would you take a bullet for someone already marked for death? In the same sense, why would God die for those in hell? What good did that accomplish?
i think it proves just how much God loves everyone. he doesn't have "favorites". he loves us all and has offered us all a way to be saved.
How can those in hell be saved? Saying God died for them anyways, just because He loved them, even though it really didn't do anything for them, is blatanly calling Him an idiot. I can assure you that it is not glorious for a soldier to take his own life for his dead buddy in combat. It's only worthy and honorable when he sacrifices his life to save that of another person...
you are the only ungodly person to ever live? :confused:
:confused: What are you getting at? Just spit it out...
this place was getting kinda quiet without you around here ;)
I'll take that as a compliment... ;)

[natewood3]

It should be noted that we are saved THROUGH FAITH. In other words, faith is the instrument God uses to connect us with the work of Christ; it is not the instrument that is doing the saving, it is the work of Christ that is saving.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by natewood3

It should be noted that we are saved THROUGH FAITH. In other words, faith is the instrument God uses to connect us with the work of Christ; it is not the instrument that is doing the saving, it is the work of Christ that is saving.

Grounds of salvation (reason for which)= death/resurrection of Christ; Grace.

Conditions of salvation (not without which)= repentance, faith, and continuance in the faith (not works or self-righteousness).

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by STONE

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
This is John 6:44.
Jesus is saying that God draws people to Him. But He did not say that God only draws certain people to Him. god draws all men unto Him, but not all men respond to God's grace, love and forgiveness with love. This does not negate that God has reached out to them to draw them unto Himself.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
This is 1 Peter 1:2
You clearly took this out of context. Anyone who grew up in church knows that Israel has been known as God's chosen people since the birth of that nation. Peter is writing to the Jews and saying that God chose them as a whole [nation] and that "as a result" [RSV] they chose to follow Christ. The same as all those who respond to God's call with love choose to follow Jesus.

Could these mean God knew who he would draw to Christ?
Yes. God knew He would draw all men unto Him.

[natewood3]

godrulz,

Allow me to quote a couple great writers to declare something I believe to be totally true (I am not declaring them over the Word; they simply state in a way that I would not be able to).

Concerning faith and the condition of salvation, allow me to quote John Owen. John Owen contends that essentially what Arminians and those who believe in a general atonement teach is this:

“God intendeth that he shall die for all, to procure for them remission of sins, reconciliation with him, eternal redemption and glory; but yet so that they shall never have the least good by these glorious things, unless they perform that which he knows they are no way able to do, and which none but himself can enable them to perform, and which concerning far the greatest part of them he is resolved not to do.�

Since the Scriptures teach that faith is a gift from God (John 1:13; 2 Tim 2:25; Phil 1:29; Hebrews 12:2; 1 John 5:1; Ezekiel 11:19-20; Ezekiel 36:26-27), and the only way anyone can receive anything good from God is through the cross of Christ, then Christ must have purchased faith and all other things involved in the salvation process. Although faith is a condition for salvation and receiving the benefits of the atonement, there is no condition in the will of God. Owen states,

"“The will of God is not at all conditional in this business, as though he gave Christ to obtain peace, reconciliation, and forgiveness of sins, upon the condition that we do believe. There is a condition in the things, but none in the will of God; that is absolute that such things should be procured and bestowed.�

Owen continues to say:

"And as for those [things] that are bestowed upon condition, the condition on which they are bestowed is actually purchased and procured for us, upon no condition but only by virtue of the purchase. For instance: Christ hath purchased remission of sins and eternal life for us, to be enjoyed on our believing, upon the condition of faith. But faith itself, which is the condition of them, on whose performances they are bestowed, that he hath procured for us absolutely, on no condition at all; for what condition soever can be proposed, on which the Lord should bestow faith."

Although salvation is received through the instrumentality of faith, God purchased and will bestow faith on all those for whom He intended it. If one does not believe this, he or she has to deal with the fact that God could be disappointed and His will be thwarted because Christ would have died for some that would not fulfill the condition of salvation that He willed for them to fulfill. Charles Hodge rightly states, “The effect of a ransom and sacrifice may indeed be conditional, but the occurrence of the condition will be rendered certain before the costly sacrifice is offered.�

Let us not become arrogant and think we were smarter or more spiritual than someone else, and therefore, we chose to believe in Christ while others were stupid and did not. When God asks you why you believed in Christ when you get to heaven, your only answer better be, "THANK YOU!"

[natewood3]

lighthouse,

Do you mind if I say just a little something? In John 6:40, Jesus says, "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." In other words, all who believe will be raised up the last day. In John 6:44, Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." All those who the Father draws, Jesus will raise them up the last day. In other words, all those who the Father draws believe and will be raise up the last day.

You say, "NO! Some can reject that drawing and refuse to believe." However, that denies the context of the passage. Listen to Jesus in John 6:65-66, "But there are some of you who do not believe. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father." The reason some believe and some do not believe is because God the Father draws some and He does not draw others. "Coming to Christ" is a gift ("granted"). You do not do that on your own; the Father draws you, and you freely believe, and God raises you up the last day.

If you want another passage to show the effectual call is not rejected ultimately, read Romans 8:29-30: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined...And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

Do you see the unbroken chain of events? Those foreknown (foreloved, basically the same as elect) are predestined, and all those predestined are CALLED, and ALL THOSE CALLED ARE JUSTIFIED! And all those justified, are glorified. In other words, there is no falling out; once God elects, you will be called, and once you are called, you will gladly and joyfully be justified through faith. The call creates faith. Once again, give God the glory for your faith, not yourself.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by natewood3

lighthouse,

Do you mind if I say just a little something? In John 6:40, Jesus says, "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." In other words, all who believe will be raised up the last day. In John 6:44, Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." All those who the Father draws, Jesus will raise them up the last day. In other words, all those who the Father draws believe and will be raise up the last day.
The verse still does not say that all those who are drawn will come to Christ. Christ does say that He will ift up those who come to Him, but He does not say that all those who are drawn will come to Him. Learn to "rightly divide the word of truth." All those who the Father draws, and believe, will be raised up on the last day.

You say, "NO! Some can reject that drawing and refuse to believe." However, that denies the context of the passage.
No it doesn't! It takes the context into account. Calvinism ignores the context.

Listen to Jesus in John 6:65-66, "But there are some of you who do not believe. This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
Don't you mean John 6:61-65? ;)
Jesus knowing who did and who did not believe, at that specific time, does not prove Calvinism. It only shows that God had exhaustive present knowledge. And some foreknowledge, to the extent that He chooses to know.

The reason some believe and some do not believe is because God the Father draws some and He does not draw others.
That is vile! :vomit:
The father draws all men unto Him! Not all men respond in kind.

"Coming to Christ" is a gift ("granted"). You do not do that on your own; the Father draws you, and you freely believe, and God raises you up the last day.
No kidding. :rolleyes:

If you want another passage to show the effectual call is not rejected ultimately, read Romans 8:29-30: "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined...And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
What version is this from?
I am not ashamed to admit that I am not fully prepared to completely answer this. Help would be appreciated from a fellow OVer.

What I gather is that drawing and calling are two different things. "For many are called, but few are chosen." [Mt 22:14] That parable shows that the call can be rejected. So the best you can show is that the two different verses are talking about two different calls.

Do you see the unbroken chain of events? Those foreknown (foreloved, basically the same as elect) are predestined, and all those predestined are CALLED, and ALL THOSE CALLED ARE JUSTIFIED! And all those justified, are glorified.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." I don't need to tell you where that is found.

In other words, there is no falling out; once God elects, you will be called, and once you are called, you will gladly and joyfully be justified through faith.
See Matthew 22:14

The call creates faith. Once again, give God the glory for your faith, not yourself.
I do give God the glory for my faith. It is not by my own works that I have faith. It is because He called me, and drew mw to Him. The most I did was listen, instead of ignore.

[STONE]

Originally posted by lighthouse

The verse still does not say that all those who are drawn will come to Christ. Christ does say that He will ift up those who come to Him, but He does not say that all those who are drawn will come to Him. Learn to "rightly divide the word of truth." All those who the Father draws, and believe, will be raised up on the last day.
No it doesn't! It takes the context into account. Calvinism ignores the context.
Don't you mean John 6:61-65? ;)
Jesus knowing who did and who did not believe, at that specific time, does not prove Calvinism. It only shows that God had exhaustive present knowledge. And some foreknowledge, to the extent that He chooses to know.
That is vile! :vomit:
The father draws all men unto Him! Not all men respond in kind.
No kidding. :rolleyes:
What version is this from?
I am not ashamed to admit that I am not fully prepared to completely answer this. Help would be appreciated from a fellow OVer.
What I gather is that drawing and calling are two different things. "For many are called, but few are chosen." [Mt 22:14] That parable shows that the call can be rejected. So the best you can show is that the two different verses are talking about two different calls.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." I don't need to tell you where that is found.
See Matthew 22:14
I do give God the glory for my faith. It is not by my own works that I have faith. It is because He called me, and drew mw to Him. The most I did was listen, instead of ignore.
Lighthouse, contain the nastiness.
It seems that you are denying election by God? Or saying election= calling, or man elects himself with free will?
-Is it because: God, being Love, Would in His perfect Love call all people unto Himself; at which point man sometimes can and does refuse through his own free will and ignorance?

[Z Man]

Lighthouse,

If you can find the time, please respond to post #26 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=580216#post580216).

[Z Man]

Originally posted by natewood3

It should be noted that we are saved THROUGH FAITH. In other words, faith is the instrument God uses to connect us with the work of Christ; it is not the instrument that is doing the saving, it is the work of Christ that is saving.
Exactly.

1 Peter 1:3-5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

[natewood3]

lighthouse,

You said:

The verse still does not say that all those who are drawn will come to Christ. Christ does say that He will ift up those who come to Him, but He does not say that all those who are drawn will come to Him. Learn to "rightly divide the word of truth." All those who the Father draws, and believe, will be raised up on the last day.

Let me quote the text for you and you make up your mind.

Joh 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst.
Joh 6:36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.
Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
Joh 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
Joh 6:41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven."
Joh 6:42 They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?"
Joh 6:43 Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves.
Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Now, in verse 40, Jesus says everyone who believes will be raised up the last day, right? I think you yourself said that, but it says "Everyone who believes will have eternal life AND I will raise Him up the last day." Now, is there any uncertainty that Jesus will not raise those who believe up the last day? Absolutely not! Jesus said all who believe have eternal life AND will be raised up the last day. Why take verse 44 any differently?!

Jesus already said that all the Father gives to Him WILL come to Him, but no one man can come UNLESS the Father draws Him, and if the Father draws him, Jesus WILL raise him up the last day.

No it doesn't! It takes the context into account. Calvinism ignores the context.

I am unashamedly a Calvinist; however, there is no need to say "Calvinism" ignores the context because I am simply trying to be biblical and Scriptural, but you act as though I am just feeding you a system and nothing else. I am not feeding you my system; I believed this before I said I was ever a Calvinist. It seems Jesus is very clear to me. I simply seen my views were the same as most Calvinists after reading passages like this.

Jesus knowing who did and who did not believe, at that specific time, does not prove Calvinism. It only shows that God had exhaustive present knowledge. And some foreknowledge, to the extent that He chooses to know.

Once again, you seem to imply I am trying to "prove Calvinism." I did not even say anything about Jesus knowing beforehand who would believe; I intentionally left that parenthesis out of the quote so we would not debate about foreknowledge. Jesus said some of you do not believe, which is why I told you that unless it is granted to come, NO ONE will come. That is clear as day: the reason some believe and the reason other do not believe is because the Father do not grant some to come to Him!

That is vile!

Well, let it be what it is. If it sounds Calvinistic to you, let it stand. If it sounds Arminian, let it stand. The Bible is not to be molded into out warped views of life and God and what we think God should be like. Human opinion does not matter in the least.

What version is this from?

ESV

What I gather is that drawing and calling are two different things. "For many are called, but few are chosen." [Mt 22:14] That parable shows that the call can be rejected. So the best you can show is that the two different verses are talking about two different calls.

I agree totally with you. You are sounding a little Calvinistic; you better watch it. There ARE two different calls: one is a general call, which can and will be resisted, and the other is an EFFECTUAL call, which means it effects what it intends to effect! Do we actually have the nerve to think that God cannot save a person when He wants to save a person!? Who are we, O mere men, to talk back to God, because none of us can say, "What have you done?"

I do give God the glory for my faith. It is not by my own works that I have faith. It is because He called me, and drew mw to Him. The most I did was listen, instead of ignore.

The thing is even your LISTENING was a gift, for no man seeks after God or understands the things of God. So, if you would no have listened without the grace of God, who is salvation ultimately in the hands of, man or God? If you say God, then you ultimately believe what I believe, just without saying it.

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Is Jesus the way of salvation?

well, what does the bible say?

John 14
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

sounds like Jesus is the way to me......

but what actually saves us? how do we become righteous?

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

Romans 3:22
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Romans 3:28
For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.

Faith is what saves us Z Man. it saved abraham, it saved Isaiah and it saves us today. the death is the reason, however, why we can be saved by faith. without the death of Jesus (and resurrection of course), faith is futile.

a question for you Z Man,

Romans 5:6
You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.

who are the ungodly, Z Man?

In Christ,

GIT

P.S. welcome back from your mission trip!!

Actually GIT, we are saved by grace. No grace; No faith!

[John Reformed]

Originally posted by lighthouse

The work of Christ, on the cross, and what it accomplished for all men can only be applied [is limited] to those who respond to it. Grace is offerd to all, just as is God's love, eternal life and forgiveness. But those who deny, reject or ignore these things have consigned themselves to hell. God did not, nor would He, predestine who and who would not respond at any time in the history of existence. For Calvinism to work God would have had to predetermine all activity throughout all time from the beginning of His existence. But if God simply existed, and has always existed, when did He predetermine anything? As you can plainly see, unless your head is stuck...in the sand...predestination/predetermination [in the Calvinist view] is illogical, unlikely and just plain nonsensical.

His ways are not our ways. His thoughts are higher than ours thoughts as the clouds are higher than the earth. That is why the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. Yet, in our pride, we persist in our quest to put God in box; to set man-made boundaries that He may not cross.

May God forgive our arrogance.

John

[godrulz]

Salvation is a gift of God. God commands all men to repent and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ. He would not command this if it was not possible. He has given us will, intellect, emotions (moral persons in the image of God). Total depravity and 'bondage of the will' are spurious teachings later in chuch history. We have physical vs complete moral depravity. Faith or unbelief is a response of the will and intellect to the truth of God. We need the conviction, drawing, and work of the Spirit to illuminate revelation, but it is assumed we can respond or not. This is why we are accountable, responsible, culpable for our choices. God does give us faith, but Eph. 2:8-10 teaches that salvation is a gift of God, not faith.

Nate is bringing up classic Calvinistic texts and arguments (in a good spirit, thank you) that have been challenged by non-Calvinists in a cogent and compelling way. It is beyond the scope of this thread to resolve all the issues (e.g. John 6 has a broader context than is being suggested...see Robert Shank or Gord Olson).

It seems to me that Calvinism falls into the trap of circular reasoning and begging the question, assuming what it is trying to prove (TULIP). It is a very rigid, closed system that was foreign to the first centuries of Christianity. Augustine, Calvin, Luther, etc. were its foundations, not Paul. It is not without the influence of unbiblical philosophies. It distorts God's sovereigny and love.

[natewood3]

godrulz,

I am the one that started this thread, and I understand that it is on the atonement. However, let us sidetrack for a moment on something else. You said:

Total depravity and 'bondage of the will' are spurious teachings later in chuch history.

Will you do me a favor? Interpret one or all of these passages, verse by verse if you will.

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
Rom 3:13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
Rom 3:14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
Rom 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
Rom 3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.",
Rom 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

[natewood3]

While there are discussions within this thread that are on other issues than the intent and purpose of the cross, let us answer this question:

What was the purpose or intent of Christ going to the cross to die?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by natewood3

While there are discussions within this thread that are on other issues than the intent and purpose of the cross, let us answer this question:

What was the purpose or intent of Christ going to the cross to die?
Well, the Biblical answer is that He died to save His sheep.


John 10:15
As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep.


But, for some reason, there are people who actually believe that Christ's death didn't accomplish this. That the only thing it really accomplished was a way for us to save ourselves from our sins... :kookoo:

[Z Man]

Originally posted by godrulz

Salvation is a gift of God. God commands all men to repent and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ. He would not command this if it was not possible. He has given us will, intellect, emotions (moral persons in the image of God). Total depravity and 'bondage of the will' are spurious teachings later in chuch history. We have physical vs complete moral depravity. Faith or unbelief is a response of the will and intellect to the truth of God. We need the conviction, drawing, and work of the Spirit to illuminate revelation, but it is assumed we can respond or not. This is why we are accountable, responsible, culpable for our choices. God does give us faith, but Eph. 2:8-10 teaches that salvation is a gift of God, not faith.

Nate is bringing up classic Calvinistic texts and arguments (in a good spirit, thank you) that have been challenged by non-Calvinists in a cogent and compelling way. It is beyond the scope of this thread to resolve all the issues (e.g. John 6 has a broader context than is being suggested...see Robert Shank or Gord Olson).

It seems to me that Calvinism falls into the trap of circular reasoning and begging the question, assuming what it is trying to prove (TULIP). It is a very rigid, closed system that was foreign to the first centuries of Christianity. Augustine, Calvin, Luther, etc. were its foundations, not Paul. It is not without the influence of unbiblical philosophies. It distorts God's sovereigny and love.
Godrulz,

No one cares about 'religion' or religious figures. This debate is simply about what we find to be true in the Biblical texts. Christ specifically states over and over again that He came to die for a specific people; His elect/sheep. No one is trying to pursuade a certain doctrine here. This topic is not beyond the scope of this thread either. You always go for an easy way out by declaring that what we (the calvinists) speak and bring forth as scriptural evidence is enwrapped with theological doctrines that came out sometime later in church history. Please....

Total depravity is Biblical, whether you like it or not. Natewood has brought forth Scriptural evidence that clearly states we are completely lost - dead apart from God. There is no way we can go to Him of our own 'free will'. We are slaves to our will to sin. That's exactly why we need a Savior.

[natewood3]

Z Man,

Revelation 5:9 portrays who will be in heaven: “And they sang a new son, saying, You are worthy to take the scroll, and to open its seals, for You were slain, and have redeemed us to God by Your blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation.� Notice two things in this passage. First, Christ actually bought and redeemed a people for Himself by His blood. Secondly, these people are out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Therefore, not everyone is there; only those whom God chose to redeem out of all the peoples of the earth. This portrays what Christ actually accomplished on the cross. This is what actually happened: Christ redeemed fallen human beings out of every people group in the world, but not all people.

The fact that God is sovereign in all things has profound implications on Revelation 5:9 and the purpose of the cross of Christ. Arminians and most who hold to unlimited atonement, assert that it was Christ’s purpose and intention to die for all people and to save all people. He purchased the same amount of blessings for the elect as He did the non-elect. The only difference is application and who responded to Christ by faith. In other words, faith is what brings sinners to receive the benefits of the cross, and that is true. However, if it was Christ’s intention and purpose to save all people, then why are not all saved? Was faith not also a gift bought by the cross? If one states that it is not applied to all because all do not believe, then who is it that really determines who is saved, God or man? This is where the sovereignty of God and Revelation 5:9 comes into the scene. What Christ actually accomplished through His death is seen in Revelation 5:9, with no reference to His purposes or intentions. However, because God is sovereign, whatever He accomplished on the cross is what He actually intended and purposed in the cross. If Christ had purposed to save all people and apply the benefits to all people if they would only believe, then the Holy Spirit would draw all people, and Christ would save all people. However, Christ only bought and redeemed a certain number of sinners out of all the people groups in the world, so it must not have been His intention and purpose to save all people through the cross. Otherwise, God is not sovereign, which makes Christ a disappointed Savior and One who is unable to accomplish that which He purposes to do. The only possible options is that Christ really only purposed to save through His death those given to Him, or Christ is a ineffectual and incompetent Savior, who is thwarted by the rebellious wills of mere human beings.

I would think you would agree.

[natewood3]

Amen Z Man...

[STONE]

Originally posted by godrulz

It seems to me that Calvinism falls into the trap of circular reasoning and begging the question, assuming what it is trying to prove (TULIP). It is a very rigid, closed system that was foreign to the first centuries of Christianity. Augustine, Calvin, Luther, etc. were its foundations, not Paul.
It is not without the influence of unbiblical philosophies. It distorts God's sovereigny and love.
Hi Godrulz,
Let's forget "Calvinism" and "TULIP" for a moment.
I am not a "Calvinist" as I have said before, but let's discuss why and how election "distorts God's sovereignty and love" specifically.

Blessings,
STONE

[natewood3]

Stone,

"Let's forget "Calvinism" and "TULIP" for a moment. "


Thank You, Thank You. Everyone seems to ignore or disbelieve something because they think it is "Calvinistic." Why don't we see what the Bible has to say and then develop our ideas from there.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by natewood3

godrulz,

I am the one that started this thread, and I understand that it is on the atonement. However, let us sidetrack for a moment on something else. You said:



Will you do me a favor? Interpret one or all of these passages, verse by verse if you will.

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
Rom 3:13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
Rom 3:14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
Rom 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
Rom 3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.",
Rom 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


I agree with all these passages that describe the end condition of men who go their own way (Romans). The human race universally sins and is universally condemned. The nuance is whether we sin because we are sinners or are sinners because we sin. The end result is the same in that all will sin without exception. The former view is Augustinian Federal Headship of Adam theory and assumes that we have an Adamic nature that is physically passed on to the human race. The latter correctly recognizes that sin is not a substance (metaphysics), but that it is a wrong moral choice, selfishness, rebellion, lawlessness (realm of morals).

I would also distinguish between physical depravity and the effects of the Fall that are inherited (propensity to sin vs causative), and moral depravity that is formed from choices, habits, and character (not genetic). Adam and babies are born morally innocent.

Ephesians uses death and flesh/Greek (wrongly translated 'sinful nature' NIV= preconceived theology) as a metaphor and not a on-on-one comparison with physical death. It is separation from God, not cessation of existence (total inability). The passage implies formation of a nature based on wrong living= objects of wrath (it is an assumption that it is Adam's nature). We cannot blame our sin on Adam or the devil (James 1). Our choices are why we are morally responsible, culpable, and accountable.

Romans 8 is in a context of a believer's struggle with spirit vs flesh (another metaphor for bodily desires and sin rather than walking in obedient light and the Spirit; it is not a physical substance back of the will).

[godrulz]

Originally posted by natewood3

While there are discussions within this thread that are on other issues than the intent and purpose of the cross, let us answer this question:

What was the purpose or intent of Christ going to the cross to die?

Reconciliation/redemption. Albert Barnes "The Atonement" (1800s) gives the 300+ page answer to your question.

There are at least 5 major theories to answer your question. I lean to the Moral Government theory (public vs retributive justice) vs Commercial Transaction Theory (literal payment of a debt).

[godrulz]

Originally posted by STONE

Hi Godrulz,
Let's forget "Calvinism" and "TULIP" for a moment.
I am not a "Calvinist" as I have said before, but let's discuss why and how election "distorts God's sovereignty and love" specifically.

Blessings,
STONE

We live in an individualistic culture (Greek/Western mindset). The biblical/Hebraic culture was corporate in mindset. Love is impartial. God loves all men equally and does not arbitrarily consign some to hell to demonstrate His wrath. Biblical election/predestination should be understood as a corporate election (Israel/Church), and not extended to the salvation/damnation of specific individuals trillions of years before they existed or made culpable choices.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by natewood3

Stone,

"Let's forget "Calvinism" and "TULIP" for a moment. "


Thank You, Thank You. Everyone seems to ignore or disbelieve something because they think it is "Calvinistic." Why don't we see what the Bible has to say and then develop our ideas from there.

There is a strong tendency to proof text and deductively reason through the filter of a preconceived theology. Sound exegesis and hermeneutics with inductive study and objectivity are a challenge.

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
"...by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life"(Ro.5:18). Are all men justified unto life? Because if we take "all men" to mean "all without exception" then we have to say that all men without exception are going to heaven. Do you believe this?

[natewood3]

godrulz,

You said:

I agree with all these passages that describe the end condition of men who go their own way (Romans). The human race universally sins and is universally condemned. The nuance is whether we sin because we are sinners or are sinners because we sin. The end result is the same in that all will sin without exception. The former view is Augustinian Federal Headship of Adam theory and assumes that we have an Adamic nature that is physically passed on to the human race. The latter correctly recognizes that sin is not a substance (metaphysics), but that it is a wrong moral choice, selfishness, rebellion, lawlessness (realm of morals).

I think you missed the point of me wanting you to look at those Scriptures. You said before total depravity and the "bondage of the will" is man made and not Scriptural pretty much. However, let us notice Paul's idea and view of mankind and the will:

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."
Rom 3:13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips."
Rom 3:14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
Rom 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
Rom 3:16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
Rom 3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.",
Rom 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

It seems Paul think thats nobody seeks or understands God .

Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience--
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

It seems Paul thinks that unregernate people continually follow the lusts of the flesh, the prince of the power of the air. It seems Paul thinks that we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, always carrying out the desires of the body and the mind.


Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.
Rom 8:8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

You declare this is speaking of the struggle between the sinful nature and the new nature in Christ. I would agree, but does this take away from the fact that all unregernate people are still in the flesh??? Absolutely not. Therefore, Paul states that all those in the flesh cannot submit or please God because they are hostile toward God.

Now, why does all this matter, and what is the relation of it to the intent and purpose of the cross? If Christ simply died with the intention of making salvation possible for everybody, but did not effect and secure the salvation of anybody, then everybody is going to hell!. No one would ever come to faith unless it was wrought for them on the cross. We are all sinful and go astray from the womb and are always fulfiling the lusts of the flesh and cannot submit to the law of God and have to have faith and repentance given to us by God. If Christ only made salvation possible, then everybody is still in a hopeless state, because we could never bring ourselves to faith and repentance.


Adam and babies are born morally innocent.

Why do babies die then? Both physical and spiritual death are results of sin, so why on earth would a baby ever have to die if he or she has not sinned and have no sinful nature?

We live in an individualistic culture (Greek/Western mindset). The biblical/Hebraic culture was corporate in mindset. Love is impartial. God loves all men equally and does not arbitrarily consign some to hell to demonstrate His wrath. Biblical election/predestination should be understood as a corporate election (Israel/Church), and not extended to the salvation/damnation of specific individuals trillions of years before they existed or made culpable choices.

First, where do you find that the biblical culture was corporate in mindset? Secondly, God does not love all men equally. Does a husband love his wife the same way he loves his sister or his female friends or female enemies even? Thirdly, consider Romans 9:21-22 very carefully, along with the rest of Romans 9; God's glory is more important than people being saved. Fourthly, while your in Romans 9, make sure you see that Paul is concerned over the salvation of his FELLOW KINSMEN, not just Israel as a whole. Paul wants to save "some" (Romans 10:1). Ephesians teaches we are elect "in Christ," but Paul goes on to say that God has predestined "us," not just Christ. Lastly, consider Judas: did God not know and determine Judas would betray Christ? consider Pharaoh: did God not raise Him up simply to show that God is great? Why did it take 10 plagues instead of just one? In the words of John Piper, "Our God is a showoff."

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Z Man

Romans 8:29-30
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


In God's eyes, when we are saved, we are righteous. When He looks at us, He sees His Son. We are perfect already in His eyes, yet, at the same time, His Spirit is always working in us to sanctify us and make us that much more 'righteous'...


ok, i'd say we are in agreement here.


You want me to contridict the Bible? Of course I don't agree with that. Romans 4:3 says what it says. The whole topic Paul is discussing in that chapter is the fact that the law doesn't matter; Abraham's faith is what was accounted for righteousness - not whether he upheld the law perfectly or not.


ok, then it was his faith that made him righteous, not his sanctification right?


If you honestly believe that, then Jesus's death only covered the sins of those alive at the time, because we didn't exist yet, so neither did our sins. Therefore, Christ couldn't have died for them. We're still lost...

I guess God has to come down every generation to die for their sins...

i didn't say i honestly believed that. i don't think that's how the atonement works. i said that it's how it came accross in your post.


Maybe I should of said:

"I'm not saying that we can be saved apart from faith. I'm saying that Christ died specifically for those who DO/WOULD have faith, and no one else."

Better?


ok, that sounds consistent with what you've said in the past. i disagree with it still, but it's what you've said before.


How can those in hell be saved? Saying God died for them anyways, just because He loved them, even though it really didn't do anything for them, is blatanly calling Him an idiot. I can assure you that it is not glorious for a soldier to take his own life for his dead buddy in combat. It's only worthy and honorable when he sacrifices his life to save that of another person...


i don't think the death works by choice though. that's a difference we have. i think that the death is applied to everyone that is human because Jesus is human and because Jesus is infinite (being God). anything less would be finite. however, this is not universalism because i hold that we are saved only when we put our faith in Jesus. the death is an absolute necessity if we are to be saved, but so is putting faith in God.


:confused: What are you getting at? Just spit it out...


here's a hint. what was hitler? godly or ungodly?

blessings,

God_Is_Truth

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by John Reformed

Actually GIT, we are saved by grace. No grace; No faith!

i semi-agree. i would say that we are saved by grace (God's part) through faith (our part). i believe that everyone of us has faith in something. what is required is putting it in Jesus. so yes faith is a gift by grace (as all are gifts, we deserve nothing), but not a special gift reserved for a few.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by ilyatur

Are all men justified unto life? Because if we take "all men" to mean "all without exception" then we have to say that all men without exception are going to heaven. Do you believe this?

An incorrect understanding of Romans 5 logically leads to universalism. Let us be careful with our exegesis. Adam's sin was the occasion for sin, not the causative factor for all subsequent sins through the centuries. Likewise, Christ's death was for all, but only efficacious (applied) for those with repentant faith. The Commercial Transaction Theory of the atonement clouds the issue.

[godrulz]

Nate:

Babies die due to physical depravity (not moral depravity) inherent in the human race due to the Fall. They do not die because they sin or have moral depravity before they make intelligent choices. At the simplest level, we are biological creatures who can die from gunshots, disease, etc. Why do animals and plants die? Is it due to spiritual issues or the nature of the type of creation God made (the circle of life)?

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by ilyatur
Are all men justified unto life? Because if we take "all men" to mean "all without exception" then we have to say that all men without exception are going to heaven. Do you believe this?
ilyatur,

Let us examine these two verses:

"...by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,so by the obedience of One shall many be made righteous"(Ro.5:19,20).

Paul is not saying that all men are in fact made righteous,but that "righteousbness" was the direction and tendency of the free gift.And the verse that follows makes this abundantly clear,as here Paul speaks of "many" who will be made righteous (and not "all").

The Greek word tranlated "upon" at verse 19 can mean "direction"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

As I have already pointed out,Paul makes it as plain as possible that "all things" have been reconciled to God by the Cross:

"And, having made peace through the blood of His cross, by Him to reconcile all things unto Himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven"(Col.1:20).

All men and all things.And no matter how many times you assert that only "some" men were reconciled to God by the Cross in order to make Scriptures fit your mistaken ideas,Paul says that "all men" and "all things" were reconciled to God by the Cross.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
All men and all things.And no matter how many times you assert that only "some" men were reconciled to God by the Cross in order to make Scriptures fit your mistaken ideas,Paul says that "all men" and "all things" were reconciled to God by the Cross.
How can all men be reconciled to God when some men are estranged from him in hell? Define "reconciled".

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth
so yes faith is a gift by grace (as all are gifts, we deserve nothing), but not a special gift reserved for a few.
God_Is_Truth,

You got that right.The Calvinists would have us believe that the Lord "will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"(1Tim.2:4),but at the same time He would make it impossible (by with-holding faith) for all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth!

In His grace,--Jerry

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by ilyatur
Define "reconciled".
"The change is in the attitude of God to men. Sin not only turned the creature's face from heaven, but made the sinner the enemy of God. That there is enmity to God in the sinner's breast is but too true, but it is not the truth here spoken of. It is impossible that God can be indifferent to His creature;. He must be either for him or against him; He must regard him either with a smile or with a frown; and sin draws down a frown, and not a smile. Apart from the work of Christ, He cannot but be against the sinner; He reckons him an enemy. But "when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son." "God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ." It is not a present work, but a work past and finished. By that death we who were enemies were reconciled. The appeal of the gospel is now that men would receive the reconciliation. "Be reconciled to God," is not an entreaty to the sinner to forgive his God, but an appeal to him to come within the reconciliation God has wrought.(Sir Robert Anderson,"The Gospel And Its Ministry"(p.141).

In His grace,--Jerry

[Chileice]

Originally posted by godrulz

Piper is a Calvinist and wrongly assumes that regeneration precedes repentant faith. The biblical evidence seems to be that we believe, repent, and respond to the truth of the Word and conviction of the Spirit through the instrumentality of the Gospel persuasively preached with love and power. When we yield, we are gloriously saved by the power of God. This allows for free will and full responsibility of man to receive or reject Christ. It is not a work or self-saving. It allows for God to love the 'world' and not just the elect. It makes the cross fully available and effective for everyone (as God intended).

Although I do not think that atonement is limited, we may have a limited perspective. The Biblical evidence does not point 100% in the direction of limited atonement. But I do think it is so sunstantial as to make it likely. Perhaps, although it seems we make a choice we will also see one day that that made us part of the chosen. In one sense, being IN Christ makes us chosen because we are then IN the Chosen one and will participate with him in glory as Col. 3 states:
"For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory."

Christ WAS chosen before the foundations of the world and I think even the most open theist would agree about that. That also crosses Calvinism/Arminianism. He IS the chosen ONE, and therefore, being in him makes us chosen as well, although not necessarily pre-destined for salvation.

[STONE]

Originally posted by godrulz

We live in an individualistic culture (Greek/Western mindset). The biblical/Hebraic culture was corporate in mindset. Love is impartial. God loves all men equally and does not arbitrarily consign some to hell to demonstrate His wrath. Biblical election/predestination should be understood as a corporate election (Israel/Church), and not extended to the salvation/damnation of specific individuals trillions of years before they existed or made culpable choices.

OK, I see. You are saying the church in it's entirety is elected, not individuals.
Interesting, though how would you justify that scripturally?
And if you could justify it, how does that change some people (the Church) being predestined?

[STONE]

Originally posted by Chileice
Although I do not think that atonement is limited, we may have a limited perspective. The Biblical evidence does not point 100% in the direction of limited atonement. But I do think it is so sunstantial as to make it likely. Perhaps, although it seems we make a choice we will also see one day that that made us part of the chosen. In one sense, being IN Christ makes us chosen because we are then IN the Chosen one and will participate with him in glory as Col. 3 states:
"For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory."Christ WAS chosen before the foundations of the world and I think even the most open theist would agree about that. That also crosses Calvinism/Arminianism. He IS the chosen ONE, and therefore, being in him makes us chosen as well, although not necessarily pre-destined for salvation.

I understand the dilemma Godrulz and others have, regarding mercy and love to the rest of humanity.
I can say I fully trust the LORD in this issue; I know He has a plan.
The key to the answer is fully discovering all we are "elected" to.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

ok, then it was [Abraham's] faith that made him righteous, not his sanctification right?
Abraham's faith was accounted to him for righteousness. In the example Paul was quoting, Abraham's faith isn't what 'saved' him.

Romans 4:20-22
He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."

What saved Abraham?

Romans 5:8-9
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
i didn't say i honestly believed that. i don't think that's how the atonement works. i said that it's how it came accross in your post.



ok, that sounds consistent with what you've said in the past. i disagree with it still, but it's what you've said before.
Then what do you believe, if you don't agree with me, and you don't agree with what you previously stated:
Originally posted by GIT

do your great, great, great grandchildren have faith right now Z Man? of course not. because they don't exist. did you have faith when Jesus died? no, cause you didn't exist then either. so if Jesus only died for those who DO have faith, then only those who were living at the time Jesus died, could have been saved.
i don't think the death works by choice though. that's a difference we have. i think that the death is applied to everyone that is human because Jesus is human and because Jesus is infinite (being God). anything less would be finite.
:confused:
however, this is not universalism because i hold that we are saved only when we put our faith in Jesus.
How can a slave to sin 'choose' God? If Christ didn't save us on the cross, how can we save ourselves from our depravity?
here's a hint. what was hitler? godly or ungodly?
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...


You tell me...

[godrulz]

Originally posted by STONE

OK, I see. You are saying the church in it's entirety is elected, not individuals.
Interesting, though how would you justify that scripturally?
And if you could justify it, how does that change some people (the Church) being predestined?

The Church is composed of individuals. Israel, Christ, and the Church were predestined by God. It is arguing from silence to assume that God predestines or foreknows every detail in the universe, including the individuals who would freely form Israel or the Church.

Corporate election would involve a detailed study of Scripture and philosophical issues (e.g. open theism does not believe in exhaustive foreknowledge of future contingencies, so it would not be possible or necessary for God to know who would exist and what choices they would make trillions of years before their existence..there are too many unknowable, contingent factors. If this is rejected, we are left with a God who can know and 'see' a nothing, or one who coerces and fatalistically micromanages the future to make it knowable). There are many authors who have concluded that