No Longer A Christian

[Granite]

Well, the name of the thread pretty much sums it up.

I no longer consider myself a Christian, a member of the Christian faith, believer in Christ or the Bible.

I came to TOL last year considering myself a born again member of the body of Christ. And it's been a crazy year. Not easy.

I am not sure if I'll stick around at TOL or not. Like any group I know I'll be ignored by some, welcomed by others, after this little announcement. There are lots of people here who've always been decent to me. And I really appreciate it.

Talk to you later.

[Redfin]

Do you mean to indicate that TOL is in any part responsible for your transition from Christianity?

[Granite]

If it did contribute to this, the influence was minimal.

I certainly got a broader idea about what else was out there, how others outside the church thought, what have you. And I certainly saw a side to Christianity--a certain bitterness, anger, intolerance; whatever--that I wasn't used to.

Maybe it took seeing it in print, in front of me, to really start looking at things differently.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

I no longer consider myself a Christian, a member of the Christian faith, believer in Christ or the Bible.



Oh gee... what a surprise :rolleyes:

You see folks, the difference between a Christian, and someone who just says he is, is confirmed by their "departing from the faith" because of their disappointment with what they see and experience, rather than who God is and what He says is true.

"Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar"

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

Oh gee... what a surprise :rolleyes:

You see folks, the difference between a Christian, and someone who just says he is, is confirmed by their "departing from the faith" because of their disappointment with what they see and experience, rather than who God is and what He says is true.

"Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar"

Whatever happened to you leaving??? Aw, Sozo. I KNEW you couldn't stay away. Happy to have you back. Seriously.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

Whatever happened to you leaving??? Aw, Sozo. I KNEW you couldn't stay away. Happy to have you back. Seriously.

The demand for my return was greater than my will to ignore it.

Besides, I couldn't possibly avoid an "I told you so" opportunity. :p

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

The demand for my return was greater than my will to ignore it.

Besides, I couldn't possibly avoid an "I told you so" opportunity. :p

:D

That's why I love ya, man. You always please the fans.

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by granite1010
I no longer consider myself a Christian..<snip> Specifically, why?

[Granite]

The abusive/borderline cult church I attended opened my eyes to the personal abuse of Christianity. Subsequently I started to "read the wrong books," as one of my elders put it. History of Christianity, mythology, atrocities of the church (which I'd been vaguely aware of but never really sat down to examine).

Blending Christianity with Roman cults ala Constantine...the obvious similarities between the sun-god myths that Christianity drew on...and the contorted history of the current 66 book canon. Along with the paucity of any archeological evidence whatsoever that virtually anything in the Old Testament really happened.

Just the stuff off the top of my head.

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by granite1010
The abusive/borderline cult church I attended opened my eyes to the personal abuse of Christianity. It's an open society. Any goofball can set up shop and say that what he teaches is Christian.
Blending Christianity with Roman cults ala Constantine...the obvious similarities between the sun-god myths that Christianity drew on. Please read a response here (http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_MMM.html) Along with the paucity of any archeological evidence whatsoever that virtually anything in the Old Testament really happened. I'm just an amateur and biblical archeology is my weakest area, but I came to the faith with these concerns, particularly about the Exodus and the book of Judges. If you want to get into specifics, let's discuss.

[Knight]

:wave2:

[Granite]

Originally posted by ilyatur

It's an open society. Any goofball can set up shop and say that what he teaches is Christian. Please read a response here (http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_MMM.html) I'm just an amateur and biblical archeology is my weakest area, but I came to the faith with these concerns, particularly about the Exodus and the book of Judges. If you want to get into specifics, let's discuss.

I wasn't talking specifically about Mithraism (though I'd disagree with some of that site's conclusions and agree with others).

[Mr. Coffee]

There's a good series of articles on mythology and the Bible here (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/topix.html)

[Granite]

Yep. I'd like to think I've read both sides. For me, the preponderance of historical evidence shows that Christianity just reflects common themes you can find in any part of human history. A god man who was miraculously born, worked miracles, enlightened, died, and came back from the dead. Nothing about that is unique to Christianity.

[Chileice]

Originally posted by granite1010

The abusive/borderline cult church I attended opened my eyes to the personal abuse of Christianity. Subsequently I started to "read the wrong books," as one of my elders put it. History of Christianity, mythology, atrocities of the church (which I'd been vaguely aware of but never really sat down to examine).

Blending Christianity with Roman cults ala Constantine...the obvious similarities between the sun-god myths that Christianity drew on...and the contorted history of the current 66 book canon. Along with the paucity of any archeological evidence whatsoever that virtually anything in the Old Testament really happened.

Just the stuff off the top of my head.

I guess any Christian worth his/her salt has passed through moments of doubt and has wondered if they might be better off without the faith. But I hope you will realize that Jesus is bigger than all of us who shout things in his name... myself included. I would truly suggest you go out to some lonely place... ALONE, some place where its just you and God, or the void or whatever is out there. Take a couple of hours, long enough to get rid of all the garbage that usually attacks our brains... and listen.

If you still come back convince you are all alone in the universe, you have lost nothing in the journey. But if you come back knowing that Jesus ( not someone or some church's interpretation of him) is real, you have gained back the joy of living. You have gained back something that would be a shame to throw away.

When you are dealing with the realm of the eternal, a few hours invested in an honest heart to heart with what lies beyond is a worthwhile investment. Hope you learn something invaluable.

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by granite1010
For me, the preponderance of historical evidence shows that Christianity just reflects common themes you can find in any part of human history. God in Christ lovingly bore divine justice, unto death, on behalf of sinners. Show me the similarites in history. A god man who was miraculously born, worked miracles, enlightened, died, and came back from the dead. Nothing about that is unique to Christianity. The Gospels cannot be put into the genre of intentional myth. According to the Encyclopedia of Cultural Anthropology, the events described in myths are set initially in a previous age that is qualitatively different from the present age. This distance between the primordial time and the present world is one of the basics of mythic literature. It can be seen in the literature of the ancient Near East, and Greek myth even had a specific date when the primordial era ended and modern history began. But the Gospels are "current events" in and for the present age.

Similarities between pagan stories and the Gospels are superficial at best. A god who yearly dies and rises again is a personification of the seasons. Jesus is not preached as an explanation for agricultural cycles.

Birth: Most of the alleged source stories are crude accounts of a god who assumes a human or animal form to impregnate a human woman. They bear no resemblance to the Gospel account of the subtle and miraculous creative power of the Holy Spirit in the conception of Jesus. In fact, the parallels are so dubious that Jane Schaberg (author of Illegitimacy of Jesus: A Feminist Theological Interpretation of the Infancy Narratives), argues that the lack of parallels indicates that the virgin birth could not have happened. Frankly, her logic escapes me. But I merely note here that the gospel writers couldn't have borrowed from a nonexistent element in pagan literature.

Resurrection and myths: all reputable historians/scholars accept as fact that the disciples saw something that they thought was Jesus, and that this is the basis of the New Testament accounts.

Miracles: Note that there isn't a circus atmosphere in the Gospel accounts, that the miracles performed by the Lord Jesus are typically expressions of his compassion, and that he did not use this power to cause harm. Show me the parallels between pagan literature and the dignity and goodness of the Lord in the NT miracle stories.

[PureX]

Granite,

Religion was always just religion. The difference is that I think you maybe were taught that your religion about God was really god itself, and now you're seeing that it was not God at all, but was really just a religion all along.

I apologize for putting words in your mouth. And I may be completely wrong, but if this is the case I think there is reason to rejoice. The cool thing about letting go of the deification of a religion is that all religions become more equal after that, and we can begin to glimpse God's face through each of them in their own unque way. We can see how fully God transcends man's religions when we begin to transcend them ourselves. And we can begin to appreciate the magnificence of God when we begin see how one God can relate to all these people through all these religions over all this time and through so many different worldly circumstances. And we're just one species on one little planet on the edge of one galaxy surrounded by billions of others - all with countless habitable planets and maybe trillions of other intelligent life forms. And all of them, too, with their own peculiar understanding and experience of God.

Well anyway, God was never a religion. God is the love you see in your wife's eyes when she looks at you. God is the trust and joy you see in your children's eyes when they look at you. God is the smile you see on a stranger's face when you hold out your hand and say, "hello, I'm ____, nice to meet you!" God is your own willingness to be good to other people, and to be honest, and to be kind, and share yourself. And God is the desire in others to do the same.

Religions are just man-made ideologies and practices that are supposed to help us to recognize and understand these things about God and to remember them. But sometimes the religions become false idols of their own. They take the place of God inside us and turn us into religious zealots and ideologues. When that happens it's time to put the religions away for a while before we become so confused and addicted to them that we lose sight of God all together.

God is love - not religion. Almost every religion on Earth will tell us this, but still many of us will lose our way and become addicted to the false idols we make of our own religions. And like any other junkie, we'll destroy everyone and everything in our lives to keep getting that "fix": to keep imagining that we own God, and God's righteousness through our religion.

Well anyway, I'm happy to hear that you have let go of that idolized kind of religion (if this is what I am hearing you say has happened) because I know that God's love in your life isn't dependant upon any religious belief, and frankly, I think it's easier to recognize and enjoy without all that religious crap. (But that's only my personal experience and opinion. I see others around here who are very successful at using their religion to help them recognize God's love in their lives and share it with other. Obviously they will feel differently then I do about it. *smile*)

In any case, nice to see you back and thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

[firechyld]

Good luck, granite. I hope you make the right decisions for you.

I'd like it if you stuck around, but it's your call to make. Take care.

[cattyfan]

I'm very sorry you've found an excuse to turn your back on Christ. I'll pray your heart hasn't been too hardened and you will find your way to a Christian Church that builds your faith instead of discouraging you.

May God's peace settle into your heart and soul.

:cattyfan:

[Lighthouse]

I agree with Sozo, and Chileice, on this. Granite, I saw you as a brother in Christ, even if we didn't agree fully on many things. But I see now I was wrong. Your faith was built upon believing what others said, instead of the truth of God. I hope you seek God, and find him.

[firechyld]

I agree with Sozo, and Chileice, on this. Granite, I saw you as a brother in Christ, even if we didn't agree fully on many things. But I see now I was wrong. Your faith was built upon believing what others said, instead of the truth of God. I hope you seek God, and find him.


Lighthouse, don't be a tool. The dude is obviously going through a rough patch. He doesn't need you judging him, or putting him down.

Have some friggin' tact.

[SOTK]

Originally posted by granite1010

Well, the name of the thread pretty much sums it up.

I no longer consider myself a Christian, a member of the Christian faith, believer in Christ or the Bible.

I came to TOL last year considering myself a born again member of the body of Christ. And it's been a crazy year. Not easy.

I am not sure if I'll stick around at TOL or not. Like any group I know I'll be ignored by some, welcomed by others, after this little announcement. There are lots of people here who've always been decent to me. And I really appreciate it.

Talk to you later.

It am really saddened by this, granite. :cry: I haven't always agreed with you on scripture and some of your points, but you did offer, at times, constuctive views. Please don't leave. I hope you stay around and come back to Christ! That's what He wants.

I feel that deep down, past your confusion and opinion of other Christians, you still know the Truth. Don't let others turn you away from God. Eventhough you and Sozo have had many words, he is right! Listen to what God says! Look to Him! Forget about other's interpretations or religious persuasions.....that stuff just doesn't matter. Look to God!

In Christ,

SOTK

[BChristianK]

Originally posted by Chileice

[QUOTE]Originally posted by granite1010

The abusive/borderline cult church I attended opened my eyes to the personal abuse of Christianity. Subsequently I started to "read the wrong books," as one of my elders put it. History of Christianity, mythology, atrocities of the church (which I'd been vaguely aware of but never really sat down to examine).

Blending Christianity with Roman cults ala Constantine...the obvious similarities between the sun-god myths that Christianity drew on...and the contorted history of the current 66 book canon. Along with the paucity of any archeological evidence whatsoever that virtually anything in the Old Testament really happened.

Just the stuff off the top of my head. [/QUOTE

I guess any Christian worth his/her salt has passed through moments of doubt and has wondered if they might be better off without the faith. But I hope you will realize that Jesus is bigger than all of us who shout things in his name... myself included. I would truly suggest you go out to some lonely place... ALONE, some place where its just you and God, or the void or whatever is out there. Take a couple of hours, long enough to get rid of all the garbage that usually attacks our brains... and listen.

If you still come back convince you are all alone in the universe, you have lost nothing in the journey. But if you come back knowing that Jesus ( not someone or some church's interpretation of him) is real, you have gained back the joy of living. You have gained back something that would be a shame to throw away.

When you are dealing with the realm of the eternal, a few hours invested in an honest heart to heart with what lies beyond is a worthwhile investment. Hope you learn something invaluable.
:thumb:

[STONE]

Granite,
You can fully intellectualize your way to belief in God; CS Lewis some may relate to.
You cannot fully intellectualize your trust in Jesus, for the witness of His word and deed is in the heart.

[Lovejoy]

Quote: I no longer consider myself a Christian, a member of the Christian faith, believer in Christ or the Bible.

You may not consider yourself a member of the Body, but you still have to deal with what Christ knows you are! If you are His (and He knows the truth) then He will bring you back! I am no believer in predestination, but I am believer in the faithfulness of Jesus. If you served Him when you were strong, He will serve you when you are weak. Just don't harden your heart, hey? Good luck to you.

[Lighthouse]

fc-
Would you rahter I let him go about his doubt in Christ, and land in hell? Or should I tell him the truth, that his faith was in the teachings of men, and not in Christ. I am alerting him to the fact that Christ is not simply what men say He is, but rather Christ is Who He says He is. And I am encouraging granite to ind that out for himself, rather than walk away from the idea of Christ because of false ideas of Christ.

[firechyld]

Would you rahter I let him go about his doubt in Christ, and land in hell? Or should I tell him the truth, that his faith was in the teachings of men, and not in Christ. I am alerting him to the fact that Christ is not simply what men say He is, but rather Christ is Who He says He is. And I am encouraging granite to ind that out for himself, rather than walk away from the idea of Christ because of false ideas of Christ.

Somebody just posted saying that they are turning from Christianity, in part due to the attitudes and actions of other Christians. You respond to this by getting judgemental and dismissive, rather than offering support and reassurance as other posters have.

Do you seriously think you're helping your cause? Or are you just reinforcing the negatives that drive people away in the first place?

[Lighthouse]

Where did I get judgmental? And if telling him to seek the real Christ is dismissive, what would qualify as not being dismissive?

[firechyld]

Compare what you said to what, say, Lovejoy said. Can you honestly not see the difference?

At any rate, I don't want to hijack this thread. It's about granite, not you or I.

[Lighthouse]

I agree with Lovejoy. I may not have said that, but that doesn't change a thing. The truth is, if granite has walked away from Christ based on other people's presentation of what they believe Christ to be, then granite's faith was neverin Christ to begin with. But I also do not believe that Christ will just dismiss granite. Jesus will continue to go after him, just as the shepherd did, for the one lost sheep, in Jesus' parable. I am encouraging granite to be as the prodigal son, and run to God...

[firechyld]

I said I wasn't going to keep going with this. But, sure, insist on having the last word.

This argument is pointless, anyway. What matters is how granite interpreted your words. I was just throwing in my $0.02.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by granite1010

Well, the name of the thread pretty much sums it up.

I no longer consider myself a Christian, a member of the Christian faith, believer in Christ or the Bible.

I came to TOL last year considering myself a born again member of the body of Christ. And it's been a crazy year. Not easy.

I am not sure if I'll stick around at TOL or not. Like any group I know I'll be ignored by some, welcomed by others, after this little announcement. There are lots of people here who've always been decent to me. And I really appreciate it.

Talk to you later. This too will work to God's glory, although my first reaction was dissapointment.

On the chance that you are still lurking about and reading, I suggest you read a book, The Signature of God by Grant Jefferies (Note, I don't recommend anything else of his, or his Bible prophecy interpretation). It's a good starting place. Then you should check out a little video called The Real Mount Sinai.

Take care,

Steve

[Lighthouse]

Okay.

Granite-
How did you take my post?

[Granite]

"I would truly suggest you go out to some lonely place... ALONE, some place where its just you and God, or the void or whatever is out there. Take a couple of hours, long enough to get rid of all the garbage that usually attacks our brains... and listen."

Been there. Done that. Tried a lot. And the conclusion I'm coming back with is that he may be there...but he is silent.

[Granite]

Originally posted by PureX

Granite,

Religion was always just religion. The difference is that I think you maybe were taught that your religion about God was really god itself, and now you're seeing that it was not God at all, but was really just a religion all along.

I apologize for putting words in your mouth. And I may be completely wrong, but if this is the case I think there is reason to rejoice. The cool thing about letting go of the deification of a religion is that all religions become more equal after that, and we can begin to glimpse God's face through each of them in their own unque way. We can see how fully God transcends man's religions when we begin to transcend them ourselves. And we can begin to appreciate the magnificence of God when we begin see how one God can relate to all these people through all these religions over all this time and through so many different worldly circumstances. And we're just one species on one little planet on the edge of one galaxy surrounded by billions of others - all with countless habitable planets and maybe trillions of other intelligent life forms. And all of them, too, with their own peculiar understanding and experience of God.

Well anyway, God was never a religion. God is the love you see in your wife's eyes when she looks at you. God is the trust and joy you see in your children's eyes when they look at you. God is the smile you see on a stranger's face when you hold out your hand and say, "hello, I'm ____, nice to meet you!" God is your own willingness to be good to other people, and to be honest, and to be kind, and share yourself. And God is the desire in others to do the same.

Religions are just man-made ideologies and practices that are supposed to help us to recognize and understand these things about God and to remember them. But sometimes the religions become false idols of their own. They take the place of God inside us and turn us into religious zealots and ideologues. When that happens it's time to put the religions away for a while before we become so confused and addicted to them that we lose sight of God all together.

God is love - not religion. Almost every religion on Earth will tell us this, but still many of us will lose our way and become addicted to the false idols we make of our own religions. And like any other junkie, we'll destroy everyone and everything in our lives to keep getting that "fix": to keep imagining that we own God, and God's righteousness through our religion.

Well anyway, I'm happy to hear that you have let go of that idolized kind of religion (if this is what I am hearing you say has happened) because I know that God's love in your life isn't dependant upon any religious belief, and frankly, I think it's easier to recognize and enjoy without all that religious crap. (But that's only my personal experience and opinion. I see others around here who are very successful at using their religion to help them recognize God's love in their lives and share it with other. Obviously they will feel differently then I do about it. *smile*)

In any case, nice to see you back and thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences.

Thanks PureX. You're pretty much on the right track. I've said it before, say it again...I feel like a better "Christian" now than I did before. More at peace, tolerant, forgiving.

[Granite]

Originally posted by cattyfan

I'm very sorry you've found an excuse to turn your back on Christ. I'll pray your heart hasn't been too hardened and you will find your way to a Christian Church that builds your faith instead of discouraging you.

May God's peace settle into your heart and soul.

:cattyfan:

Trust me, I wasn't looking for an "excuse," nor do I see my choice as an "excuse" for anything. People walk from the church all the time for any number of reasons.

[Granite]

Originally posted by lighthouse

I agree with Sozo, and Chileice, on this. Granite, I saw you as a brother in Christ, even if we didn't agree fully on many things. But I see now I was wrong. Your faith was built upon believing what others said, instead of the truth of God. I hope you seek God, and find him.

Lighthouse--I'd disagree. (Maybe not a surprise.) I believed the truth of God by not examining it. I trusted scripture and Christianity without ever questioning it. Unfortunately, the minute you start asking questions, you get into some kind of "danger zone", as far as many Christians are concerned. As though questioning why you believe what you do is somehow beyond the pale.

I have sought God. And I think I have found him. Unfortunately it doesn't seem as though what I found lines up with what I believed before.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

People walk from the church all the time for any number of reasons. Yes they do, and I applaud them for it!

So then, what about you? Did you initially come to the church, or to Jesus?

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

Yes they do, and I applaud them for it!

So then, what about you? Did you initially come to the church, or to Jesus?

Raised in the faith. Since childhood.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

Raised in the faith. Since childhood.

So, at what point in your life, did you realize that you were a sinner, separated from God, and that coming to Christ by faith, to receive His life, is your only hope?

[PureX]

Originally posted by granite1010 ...he may be there...but he is silent. As human beings, I don't believe we can "know God" in the way that some religions claim, and that would be required to know that "God is there". What we can do, though, as limited human beings, is we can choose to trust that God is there even though we can't know it, and through that trust we can begin to see and experience the effect of God in our lives. And we can then experience that effect as love and forgiveness and healing.

We could be wrong, of course, and this "divine effect" we experience could simply be the result of our own imagination's effect upon ourselves, but so what? Does this really matter? If my life is made better by my believing in a loving God even though I can't actually know that this God exists, (neither can I know that this God does NOT exist) then why not choose to believe it? If I become a better man to myself and to everyone around me because I choose to believe that the "evidence" of God is the love in our lives, and in so believing I can develop and share that love with others, why not do it? - Especially when I can't prove this to be UNtrue, either.

I think the only danger in doing this would be in forgetting that this belief is my choice, and is based on faith rather then on knowledge or proof. When that happens I become a liar even to myself, and that kind of dishonesty always causes strife in our lives and in the lives of everyone around us. This is why these absolutist versions of religion are always so harmful.

(Ooops, I hadn't read far enough in the thread to have seen your response to my previous post, so this one may be somewhat irrelevant to you, but I'll leave it here maybe for the benefit of others.)

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

So, at what point in your life, did you realize that you were a sinner, separated from God, and that coming to Christ by faith, to receive His life, is your only hope?

I was young. Not that I think it really matters.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by PureX

This is why these absolutist versions of religion are always so harmful.

You sure wouldn't want anyone to get caught up accepting statements like...

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

Right?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

Not that I think it really matters. Apparently, it never did.

[Granite]

Originally posted by PureX

As human beings, I don't believe we can "know God" in the way that some religions claim, and that would be required to know that "God is there". What we can do, though, as limited human beings, is we can choose to trust that God is there even though we can't know it, and through that trust we can begin to see and experience the effect of God in our lives. And we can then experience that effect as love and forgiveness and healing.

We could be wrong, of course, and this "divine effect" we experience could simply be the result of our own imagination's effect upon ourselves, but so what? Does this really matter? If my life is made better by my believing in a loving God even though I can't actually know that this God exists, (neither can I know that this God does NOT exist) then why not choose to believe it? If I become a better man to myself and to everyone around me because I choose to believe that the "evidence" of God is the love in our lives, and in so believing I can develop and share that love with others, why not do it? - Especially when I can't prove this to be UNtrue, either.

I think the only danger in doing this would be in forgetting that this belief is my choice, and is based on faith rather then on knowledge or proof. When that happens I become a liar even to myself, and that kind of dishonesty always causes strife in our lives and in the lives of everyone around us. This is why these absolutist versions of religion are always so harmful.

(Ooops, I hadn't read far enough in the thread to have seen your response to my previous post, so this one may be somewhat irrelevant to you, but I'll leave it here maybe for the benefit of others.)

Some people may have better lives by believing in God. But what I see from so many Christians is some kind of weird, self-inflicted sado-masochistic misery. Believing in Jesus certainly doesn't improve the lives of many Christians I know. Unless being a Christian makes you a hypocrite, thief, manipulator, or con man.

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

Apparently, it never did.

So what? Sozo, you can't try to say you really care about me (because you don't), and you can't say that playing twenty questions (when were you saved? how old? what did you say?) is anything more than rubbernecking. There's no point in that line of thinking.

[PureX]

Originally posted by Sozo

You sure wouldn't want anyone to get caught up accepting statements like...

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

Right? What if the "way" is love, and the "truth" is that we don't have the ability to "know God" or God's will, and the "life" we find "through Christ" is a life of peace and love and joy and healing that comes from accepting that we are ignorant human beings who can't know and control God through our religions?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

There's no point in that line of thinking. Unless you can pinpoint a time in your life when it was your "line of thinking", then you never knew Him.

But, you can know Him now!

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

Unless you can pinpoint a time in your life when it was your "line of thinking", then you never knew Him.

But, you can know Him now!

So I never knew him. And frankly, no one really can know. It's not enough to cast out demons, do miracles, profess his name, believe completely...what kind of assurance is that?

[PureX]

Originally posted by granite1010 Some people may have better lives by believing in God. But what I see from so many Christians is some kind of weird, self-inflicted sado-masochistic misery. Believing in Jesus certainly doesn't improve the lives of many Christians I know. Unless being a Christian makes you a hypocrite, thief, manipulator, or con man. Well in truth, I suppose a lot of us would be hypocrites, thieves, manipulators, or con man regardless of our religions. *smile*

But I wasn't really talking about religion, I was just talking about choosing to trust in a God that is expressed in our lives as love, not because we know this to be true, but simply because as a belief it produces positive results in our lives. All those miserable Christians that you are referring to should give up their religions, I think, if their religions are making them miserable and especially if their religions are making them make everyone around them miserable, too. But they can't do that because they have foolishly come to believe that they are "right" and that their religions are "truth".

But no religion is "right". How could it be? No religion possesses the absolute truth, and even if it did, we still would have no way of knowing this! It's not God and Christ that have caused these folks to be so miserable ... it's their false idolization of their own religion.

[Granite]

I think it's less a matter of finding "truth" as opposed to escaping hell. That's the bedrock of Christianity: not the Bible, not Jesus, but hell. Eternal torture is what this religion is based on.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

So I never knew him. And frankly, no one really can know. It's not enough to cast out demons, do miracles, profess his name, believe completely...what kind of assurance is that?

Is that what is going on with you? Has your life been void of assurance? I am in agreement with PureX concerning the hope that you are in fact just losing your religion, because it clearly opens the door for you to have assurance.

btw... I seriously doubt that most of those who engage in the fascination of "miracles" know Him either. There is only one miracle that matters to you.

[Zakath]

granite1010,

All I need to say is, "Welcome to reality." :thumb:

I think you're making an informed decision to reject an overly-controlling religious environment in favor of being a self-directed adult.

In addition, it's a big, wide universe out here, filled with wondrous diversity and enough puzzles and questions to keep us humans occupied for numerous lifetimes.

Good luck on your journey. If I can offer any assistance, PM me or email me. :geek:

Zakath

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Sozo

Oh gee... what a surprise :rolleyes:

You see folks, the difference between a Christian, and someone who just says he is, is confirmed by their "departing from the faith" because of their disappointment with what they see and experience, rather than who God is and what He says is true.

"Let God be found true, though every man be found a liar"

I see Sozo's towing the "party line."

You will notice, Granite, that Christians will deny you ever were a Christian. It's difficult for them to admit that any person would turn away from christianity having had an authentic Christian experience.

I hope this doesn't mean you will turn away from God, or from seeking spiritual truth. You should think of this as more of a beginning than an end.

[Sozo]

I see that the leeches have emerged from the primordial swamp to devour your flesh.

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

Is that what is going on with you? Has your life been void of assurance? I am in agreement with PureX concerning the hope that you are in fact just losing your religion, because it clearly opens the door for you to have assurance.

btw... I seriously doubt that most of those who engage in the fascination of "miracles" know Him either. There is only one miracle that matters to you.

I had assurance. Evidently that's not enough. Because it can come and go.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo

I see that the leeches have emerged from the primordial swamp to devour your flesh. Heark, do the dry bones speak? :ha:

[Zakath]

Originally posted by wickwoman

I see Sozo's towing the "party line." (Psst! That's "toeing", as in standing with your toe on a line...) ;)

You will notice, Granite, that Christians will deny you ever were a Christian. It's difficult for them to admit that any person would turn away from christianity having had an authentic Christian experience. Only the ones who believe in the silly "eternal security" doctrine, like Sozo.

[Granite]

Originally posted by Zakath

granite1010,

All I need to say is, "Welcome to reality." :thumb:

I think you're making an informed decision to reject an overly-controlling religious environment in favor of being a self-directed adult.

In addition, it's a big, wide universe out here, filled with wondrous diversity and enough puzzles and questions to keep us humans occupied for numerous lifetimes.

Good luck on your journey. If I can offer any assistance, PM me or email me. :geek:

Zakath

Hey Zakath. Thanks.

In a way Christianity kind of takes the mystery out of things, doesn't it. When you have everything explained, where's the curiosity or the inquisition left in life?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

I had assurance. Evidently that's not enough. Because it can come and go.

It can? That's news to me.

Has there been a time in your life, after you knew that 2+2=4, that you doubted it?

[Granite]

Originally posted by wickwoman

I see Sozo's towing the "party line."

You will notice, Granite, that Christians will deny you ever were a Christian. It's difficult for them to admit that any person would turn away from christianity having had an authentic Christian experience.

I hope this doesn't mean you will turn away from God, or from seeking spiritual truth. You should think of this as more of a beginning than an end.

Ex-Christians pose a problem: either they WERE "saved" somehow and left the faith, or, they were never saved to begin with. Which means anybody at any time can take a walk.

Then it becomes a "what if it happens to me?" situation. Which means nobody in the church will ever be absolutely sure.

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

It can? That's news to me.

Has there been a time in your life, after you knew that 2+2=4, that you doubted it?

Unfortunately mathemathics isn't based on fear of eternal torture, subjective experiences, a contorted collection of scriptures, questionable history, or littered with a track record of genocide and abuse. So the analogy (like most) doesn't hold up.

Math CAN be proved. Christianity cannot.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by granite1010

Hey Zakath. Thanks.You're welcome. :D

In a way Christianity kind of takes the mystery out of things, doesn't it.Certainly, some of the more dogmatic forms do, but I know some devout Christians who are also fine scientists. They seem to reconcile things pretty well.

When you have everything explained, where's the curiosity or the inquisition left in life? Well I think the Christian church has already shown us plenty about their version of Inquisition over the centuries... :help:

[Zakath]

Originally posted by granite1010
...Math CAN be proved. Christianity cannot. That's one reason why math is considered a science and Christianity is a religion.

One can be demonstrated or proven, the other requires faith in the unpredictable, undemonstrable, and unprovable.

[Nineveh]

granite1010,
In the end it matters where you stand with Christ, not "Christianity".

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Zakath

(Psst! That's "toeing", as in standing with your toe on a line...) ;)


Really! I always thought it was like pulling a very long rope with something heavy at the end, like all that dead weight of Christians who are resting in their "eternal security."

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

Unfortunately mathemathics isn't based on fear of eternal torture, subjective experiences, a contorted collection of scriptures, questionable history, or littered with a track record of genocide and abuse. So the analogy (like most) doesn't hold up.

Math CAN be proved. Christianity cannot.


Christianity is based on a relationship with Jesus.

You have just proved that you never knew Jesus.

If you did, than it would be more real to you than math.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by granite1010
Then it becomes a "what if it happens to me?" situation. Which means nobody in the church will ever be absolutely sure.

Welcome to the human race! None of us are sure. Some Christians just like to pretend they are.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by wickwoman

Really! I always thought it was like pulling a very long rope with something heavy at the end, like all that dead weight of Christians who are resting in their "eternal security." :chuckle:

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo

Christianity is based on a relationship with Jesus.

You have just proved that you never knew Jesus.

If you did, than it would be more real to you than math. Sozo,

Do you claim to "know Jesus"?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Sozo

Christianity is based on a relationship with Jesus.

You have just proved that you never knew Jesus.

If you did, than it would be more real to you than math.

Jesus is dead. One cannot have relations with dead people. It's against the law. As for Christ, the root of the word Christian, a relationship with Christ is key. However, some Christians don't demonstrate it very well.

[Zakath]

Wickwoman,

"One cannot have relations with dead people. It's against the law..." :chuckle:

You're cracking me up here! :thumb:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Zakath

Sozo,

Do you claim to "know Jesus"?

Yes, would you like to know Him?

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo

Yes...

Since you know him, you do not believe in him; any more than you believe that your wife exists...

Correct?

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by wickwoman

Jesus is dead.

Was. He is risen! He is that One God who just won't agree with you no matter what you say, do, or believe. Maybe someday you will consider that One God who opposes you at every turn.

[Nineveh]

"...blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." - Jesus

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Was. He is risen! Oh really? What evidence do you have to back up this claim of violation of "natural law" in which dead bodies are reanimated?

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Zakath

Oh really? What evidence do you have to back up this claim of violation of "natural law" in which dead bodies are reanimated?

Eyewitness accounts :)

Pretty fundamental stuff an "ex pastor" should know, there Z.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nineveh

"...blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." - Jesus :chuckle:

P. T. Barnum made quite a bit of money off of that very principle... :think:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Zakath

Since you know him, you do not believe in him; any more than you believe that your wife exists...

Correct? I believe in Him, because I know Him.

It is not a question of believing in His existence, but rather believing Him to be the way, the truth, and the life.

You have placed your belief in another way, another truth, and another life.

You have faith, it's just misplaced.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Eyewitness accounts :)Oh, you've interviewed one or more of these alleged "eyewitnesses" yourself?

Heard their testimony from their own mouths?

Did you speak to them in their native languages to reduce the possiblity of miscommunication?

... or is it only something you've read about second, third, or many hands removed? :think:

[brother Willi]

those who seek a natural solution, for what God has done, will miss the truth

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Zakath

Wickwoman,

"One cannot have relations with dead people. It's against the law..." :chuckle:

You're cracking me up here! :thumb:

Thank you. It's an honor.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by brother Willi

those who seek a natural solution, for what God has done, will miss the truth What truth is that, Willi? That the alleged deity provides unnatural solutions?

Hardly a profound revelation. :rolleyes:

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Zakath

Oh, you've interviewed one or more of these alleged "eyewitnesses" yourself?

The "enlightened" didn't believe there was a Troy, until they dug it up. Same goes for Nineveh.

Heard their testimony from their own mouths?

Even the religious leaders at the time couldn't discount what happened, they could only put their spin to it.

... or is it only something you've read about second, third, or many hands removed? :think:

You can go on believing that if you like. Far be it from me to convince you other wise :)

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nineveh

The "enlightened" didn't believe there was a Troy, until they dug it up. Same goes for Nineveh.But the histriocity of Troy and Nineveh were not based on claims of supernatural events...

Big difference.

Even the religious leaders at the time couldn't discount what happened, they could only put their spin to it.Assuming, of course, that those stories are any more reliable than the resurrection story.

When people want to believe in something, they will, regardless of evidence, or lack thereof. You are a case in point.

You need to have a god for your own particular reasons, so you feel you must believe to give your life meaning. There is almost no evidence or lack of evidence that would shake your belief.

I can identify with that position. I held it at one time myself.

You can go on believing that if you like. Far be it from me to convince you other wise :) Very, very far. :thumb:

By the way, you never did directly answer my questions... should we assume that you have not ever personally met one of these alleged "eyewitnesses"?

That you have never actually interviewed one in their native language?

That you are merely relying on "hearsay" evidence, for which the original sources no longer exist?


Essentially your faith seems to be based on a several thousand year old game of "telephone".

:doh:

What a fragile framework upon which to pin your hopes for your allegedly eternal destiny...

[PureX]

Originally posted by granite1010 I think it's less a matter of finding "truth" as opposed to escaping hell. That's the bedrock of Christianity: not the Bible, not Jesus, but hell. Eternal torture is what this religion is based on. Exactly. These absolutist religions are all based on fear - the fear of hell. And what sends one to hell? .... Being "wrong": believing in the "wrong" religious dogma. Absolutist religion is all about inventing and maintaining the illusion of one's own righteousness, because to be "wrong" is perceived as the equivilant of going to hell.

These absolutist religions have nothing to do with love or forgiveness or peace or tolerance. All they're about is the illusion of being right and the fear of being wrong. And that's why they make their participants miserable, and why they become so violently defensive and antagonistic toward any other veiw of God, life, and reality.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Zakath

But the histriocity of Troy and Nineveh were not based on claims of supernatural events...

The question is the accounts. Those two accounts were considered "untue" until physical evidence was dug up. One is secular from the Illiad, the other Biblical from the Books of Genesis, Jonah and Nahum.

Assuming, of course, that those stories are any more reliable than the resurrection story.

I'll leave battling the Pharisees and Sadducees to you. After all, they are on your side of the issue :) (Except Paul, who had a "change of heart". )

When people want to believe in something, they will, regardless of evidence, or lack thereof. You are a case in point.

Same backatcha ;)

You need to have a god for your own particular reasons, so you feel you must believe to give your life meaning. There is almost no evidence or lack of evidence that would shake your belief.

lol...

Thanks for the psychoanalysis, I asume it's a freebie :) It would profit you more to turn that lens on your own soul, however.

I can identify with that position. I held it at one time myself.

Do you assume I was always a Christ follower, then?

By the way, you never did directly answer my questions... should we assume that you have not ever personally met one of these alleged "eyewitnesses"?

I'm sorry you didn't like my answer (refer to the first paragraph). I guess men landing on the moon is an event in history that can be readily dismissed as soon as everyone who was an eyewitness dies?

What a fragile framework upon which to pin your hopes for your allegedly eternal destiny...

And from my perseptive, you have far far less.

Anyway, this thread isn't about your loss of "faith" it's about granite's.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Zakath

What truth is that, Willi? That the alleged deity provides unnatural solutions?

Hardly a profound revelation. :rolleyes:

provides unnatural solutions?


you find what you seek, its called free will.

it is you who make natural solutions

[Granite]

Originally posted by PureX

Exactly. These absolutist religions are all based on fear - the fear of hell. And what sends one to hell? .... Being "wrong": believing in the "wrong" religious dogma. Absolutist religion is all about inventing and maintaining the illusion of one's own righteousness, because to be "wrong" is perceived as the equivilant of going to hell.

These absolutist religions have nothing to do with love or forgiveness or peace or tolerance. All they're about is the illusion of being right and the fear of being wrong. And that's why they make their participants miserable, and why they become so violently defensive and antagonistic toward any other veiw of God, life, and reality.

Right. If the foundation of your faith is fear of torture, that's going to be reflected in everything you do. Sugar coating Christianity does not change what it basically is: control. The hook.

[Poly]

:Nineveh: = :box: :zakath: = :dead:

[Zakath]

Originally posted by brother Willi

provides unnatural solutions?Yes, the Christian religion is fundamentally based on "unnatural" or "supernatural" foundations. What about that do you not understand?

you find what you seek, its called free will.Your response here is unclear. Free will is the ability of an individual to exercise choice, not merely to seek. Water seeks to find the lowest spot on a surface to settle, it does not have free will, so far as we can determine.

:think:

it is you who make natural solutions Oddly enough, wasn't it supposedly your deity who makes natural solutions? All we humans are supposed to do is discover things...:think:

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Poly

:Nineveh: = :box: :zakath: = :dead: Oh really? Perhaps you should also go for the Ray Charles look... :cool:

Re-read her post and tell me which one of my points did she actually refute? :think:

Nearly as I can see, she avoided providing direct answers to every question I raised.

I see lots of dancing about, but haven't felt a blow land yet. :ha:

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Zakath

Yes, the Christian religion is fundamentally based on "unnatural" or "supernatural" foundations. What about that do you not understand?
you are correct
i misread your reply

Your response here is unclear. Free will is the ability of an individual to exercise choice, not merely to seek. Water seeks to find the lowest spot on a surface to settle, it does not have free will, so far as we can determine.

:think: you are correct, water does not have the ability to seek higher ground.
we do

Oddly enough, wasn't it supposedly your deity who makes natural solutions? All we humans are supposed to do is discover things...:think:

natural in an atheists eye?

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by granite1010

Right. If the foundation of your faith is fear of torture, that's going to be reflected in everything you do. Sugar coating Christianity does not change what it basically is: control. The hook.
PLEASE granite, get a "red letter edition" of a Bible.

read ONLY the read letters.

there is no need for sugar.

love is sweeter then sugar

[On Fire]

Anyone who comes here or any other web site expecting to find God is just plain stupid. You've got to rub elbows with God's people, confess your sins to God's people, expose your brokeness to God's people, and ask God's people to stand beside you when you feel like doubting.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by On Fire

Anyone who comes here or any other web site expecting to find God is just plain stupid. You've got to rub elbows with God's people, confess your sins to God's people, expose your brokeness to God's people, and ask God's people to stand beside you when you feel like doubting.
that is very true, and wise.

where do we find God's people, are they thirsting for the blood of their enemies?

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nineveh

The question is the accounts. Those two accounts were considered "untue" until physical evidence was dug up. One is secular from the Illiad, the other Biblical from the Books of Genesis, Jonah and Nahum. Your argument is flawed. If no one believed in their existence, why did someone pay for archeologists to locate them? :think:

I would seriously doubt that the existence of Nineveh was in doubt, what appeared to be in doubt was the exact location of the site of the city which was finally found in the early nineteenth century underneath the modern city of Mosul.

I'll leave battling the Pharisees and Sadducees to you. After all, they are on your side of the issue :) (Except Paul, who had a "change of heart". )Oh, you mean after his apparent stroke or seizure on the Damascus road affected his brain? More flimsy framework...

Same backatcha ;)This is a discussion, not a tennis match. How about an answer?

Thanks for the psychoanalysis, I asume it's a freebie :) It would profit you more to turn that lens on your own soul, however.Of course it's free... all my advice here is free. :D

BTW, remember that I don't have a soul...

Do you assume I was always a Christ follower, then?I have no idea. It really doesn't matter for the discussion at hand.

I'm sorry you didn't like my answer (refer to the first paragraph). I guess men landing on the moon is an event in history that can be readily dismissed as soon as everyone who was an eyewitness dies?That's personal preference. But last I heard, George Bush hasn't yet claimed that believing the government's stories about its exploits was a requirement for achieving eternal life...

And from my perseptive, you have far far less.Since you apparently cannot see beyond your limited worldview, your "Ray Charles" smilie :Nineveh: is appropriate for you then.

Anyway, this thread isn't about your loss of "faith" it's about granite's. I wasn't taking it there, was I? :think:

[Granite]

Originally posted by brother Willi

PLEASE granite, get a "red letter edition" of a Bible.

read ONLY the read letters.

there is no need for sugar.

love is sweeter then sugar

Christ talked about hell more than anyone in the New Testament. Sorry, no dice. In any event, if you're so blinded that you're willing to ignore the lion's share of your own book, I'm not the one with the problem.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by brother Willi

that is very true, and wise.

where do we find God's people, are they thirsting for the blood of their enemies? Yup, apparently... :readthis:

Surely God will crush the heads of his enemies, the hairy crowns of those who go on in their sins. The Lord says, "I will bring them from Bashan; I will bring them from the depths of the sea, that you may plunge your feet in the blood of your foes, while the tongues of your dogs have their share." Ps. 68:21-23

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7 NLT)

The king's edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; to destroy, kill and annihilate any armed force of any nationality or province that might attack them and their women and children; and to plunder the property of their enemies...The Jews struck down all their enemies with the sword, killing and destroying them, and they did what they pleased to those who hated them. (Esther 8:11 & 9:5)

In your unfailing love, silence my enemies; destroy all my foes, for I am your servant. (Ps. 143:12)



Sounds pretty bloodthirsty to me... :think:

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by granite1010

Christ talked about hell more than anyone in the New Testament. Sorry, no dice. In any event, if you're so blinded that you're willing to ignore the lion's share of your own book, I'm not the one with the problem.

hell might be the death an atheist sees.

as to the O.T

did Jesus not teach a new Way?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by brother Willi

PLEASE granite, get a "red letter edition" of a Bible.

read ONLY the read letters.


I think I agree with Willi on this, go figure.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by On Fire

Anyone who comes here or any other web site expecting to find God is just plain stupid. You've got to rub elbows with God's people, confess your sins to God's people, expose your brokeness to God's people, and ask God's people to stand beside you when you feel like doubting.

Right! And if you're expecting to find very many of God's people here, you're SOL.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Zakath

Sounds pretty bloodthirsty to me... :think:
indeed it does.

are we to be O.T. bloodthirsty christians?

did Jesus not teach us a New Way?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by granite1010

Christ talked about hell more than anyone in the New Testament. Sorry, no dice. In any event, if you're so blinded that you're willing to ignore the lion's share of your own book, I'm not the one with the problem.

Uh oh. I must be in denial. Show me where Jesus talked about Hell. You're screwing up my philsophy. Well, that is if I must believe all of what is attributed to Jesus in the gospels is actually what Jesus said, which I don't.

[Granite]

Originally posted by wickwoman

Uh oh. I must be in denial. Show me where Jesus talked about Hell. You're screwing up my philsophy. Well, that is if I must believe all of what is attributed to Jesus in the gospels is actually what Jesus said, which I don't.

Huh??? Come on, Wick! I'm surprised you weren't aware of the real charming tidbits from the gospels. Weeping and gnashing of teeth. Fear not those who kill the body but he who can throw you into hell. He cursed entire cities...

[Nineveh]

Ah! Good, I thought you were ignoring me :)

Originally posted by Zakath

Your argument is flawed. If no one believed in their existence, why did someone pay for archeologists to locate them? :think:

Just because the "enlightened" who "keep the knowledge" were in error, that doesn't mean everyone bowed to their "wisdom". Even (athiestic) Archaelogists give the Bible credit for being a "treasure map". If I'm not mistaken the guy who went in search of Troy using the Illiad was mocked.

I would seriously doubt that the existence of Nineveh was in doubt, what appeared to be in doubt was the exact location of the site of the city which was finally found in the early nineteenth century underneath the modern city of Mosul.

In the days of the Greek historian Herodotus, 400 BC, it [Nineveh] had become a thing of the past; and when Xenophon the historian passed the place in the "Retreat of the Ten Thousand," the very memory of its name had been lost. It was buried out of sight, and no one knew its grave. It is never again to rise from its ruins.cite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nineveh)

In essence, God kept memory of the great city of Nineveh when men had forgotten.

Oh, you mean after his apparent stroke or seizure on the Damascus road affected his brain? More flimsy framework...

LOL right.

Of course it's free... all my advice here is free. :D

Good policy...
Saves me from asking for my money back :)

Since you apparently cannot see beyond your limited worldview

Right backatcha ;)

(aww do those little smilies irk you that badly? Be proud! You have :zakath: you earned it! :) )

I wasn't taking it there, was I?

Are you arguing granite's reasons for losing his faith or yours?

[Zakath]

Originally posted by brother Willi

indeed it does.

are we to be O.T. bloodthirsty christians?

did Jesus not teach us a New Way? Maybe, maybe not...


:readthis: Some teachings of Jesus...

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law-- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' - Mt. 10:35-35

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple." - Lk 14:26


And for all our biblical literalists, this part of John's vision in Revelation (allegedly from Jesus)...

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia." - Rev. 14:14-19



"He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Rev. 14:10


I'm not sure what's "better" about Jesus' way, Willi. :think:

[cattyfan]

Trust me, I wasn't looking for an "excuse," nor do I see my choice as an "excuse" for anything. People walk from the church all the time for any number of reasons.

o.k. then please ignore the use of "excuse" and just take the second half of my post to heart. I am sincere when I tell you I hope you find your way back to Christ and His grace and love.

[cattyfan]

That's "toeing", as in standing with your toe on a line...)


great...now I'm hearing that 1980 Rocky Burnett song in my head...:freak:

[Granite]

Originally posted by brother Willi

indeed it does.

are we to be O.T. bloodthirsty christians?

did Jesus not teach us a New Way?

Are you going to acknowledge the God of the OT was fundamentally bloodthirsty and condoned barbarism and savagery committed by the Hebrews?

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Ah! Good, I thought you were ignoring me :)



Just because the "enlightened" who "keep the knowledge" were in error, that doesn't mean everyone bowed to their "wisdom". Perhaps a veiled reference to your attitude about the established Church? :think:

Even (athiestic) Archaelogists give the Bible credit for being a "treasure map".I think you've been watching too many Indiana Jones movies, Nineveh. ;) Many recent archeological digs in the middle east are, shall we say, not exactly supporting the veracity of the biblical stories about important things like the exodus from Egypt and the invasion of Palestine.

If I'm not mistaken the guy who went in search of Troy using the Illiad was mocked.I presume you mean Heinrich Schliemann. So what? Galileo was mocked, and worse, by your Christians when he went in search of what he believed to exist and we now accept as verifiable fact...

In essence, God kept memory of the great city of Nineveh when men had forgotten.Actually modern copies of ancient texts kept the memory. Deity had nothing to do with it.

(aww do those little smilies irk you that badly?Nope. Just pointing out how appropriate your dark glasses were.

Be proud! You have :zakath: you earned it!As you pointed out earlier, searchers for truth are used to dealing with mockers, like those of you in the established religions... ;)

Are you arguing granite's reasons for losing his faith or yours? I'm discussing the issue of loss of faith in general. It's granite's thread, though, and if he feels my comments are inappropriate, I'll withdraw.

[cattyfan]

Ex-Christians pose a problem: either they WERE "saved" somehow and left the faith, or, they were never saved to begin with. Which means anybody at any time can take a walk.


not all Christians have this point of view. I was raised to believe you can reject the Lord at anytime...you are saved at the time of your baptism, but if you choose to turn your back on the Lord later, then you are no longer His.

It's like He's given you a gift, and at some point in your life you decide you don't want it, so you return it to Him without unwrapping it.

The good news is, He will always accept and welcome you should you decide to return...and He will gladly give you the gift again.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by cattyfan

great...now I'm hearing that 70s Robbie Burnett song in my head...:freak: :confused:

[cattyfan]

The song "Tired of Toeing the Line"

Rocky Burnett, son of legendary rockabilly artist Johnny Burnett, charted in 1980. It hit number 8 and was on the chart for months. Sorry...I identified him as "Robbie" and in the late 70s...too much useless info in my head.

[Granite]

Originally posted by cattyfan

not all Christians have this point of view. I was raised to believe you can reject the Lord at anytime...you are saved at the time of your baptism, but if you choose to turn your back on the Lord later, then you are no longer His.

It's like He's given you a gift, and at some point in your life you decide you don't want it, so you return it to Him without unwrapping it.

The good news is, He will always accept and welcome you should you decide to return...and He will gladly give you the gift again.

If it is a gift, it's the most strings-attached gift I've ever heard of.

Let's see...accept my generosity, or, I'll burn you alive for the rest of eternity. More like the Godfather as opposed to God the Father. Talk about an offer you can't refuse...

[cattyfan]

unconditional love...really threatening stuff.

[Granite]

But it is conditional. Very much so.

[wickwoman]

No, really Granite, give me some scriptures where Jesus talked about Hell. I'm not saying it's not in the Bible. I just want to see them.

Revelations doesn't count.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by cattyfan

The song "Tired of Toeing the Line"

Rocky Burnett, son of legendary rockabilly artist Johnny Burnett, charted in 1980. It hit number 8 and was on the chart for months. Sorry...I identified him as "Robbie" and in the late 70s...too much useless info in my head. :ha:

I was wondering if it might have been Rocky, not Robbie, but I didn't remember the song...

[cattyfan]

Jesus speaks of hell:

Matthew 10:28, 23:15, 23:33
Luke 12:5, 16:23


I have left out the verses regarding cutting off hands that sin, as I don't wish to get into the literal vs. metaphor discussion.

[cattyfan]

I didn't remember the song

I, unfortunately, remember the whole thing...

[Granite]

Originally posted by wickwoman

No, really Granite, give me some scriptures where Jesus talked about Hell. I'm not saying it's not in the Bible. I just want to see them.

Revelations doesn't count.

Catty beat me to it. It's in there, all right.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Zakath

Perhaps a veiled reference to your attitude about the established Church? :think:

No, a rather blatent proof eyewitness accounts are more credible than you would have me believe :)

Actually modern copies of ancient texts kept the memory.

...and thank you for agreeing with me in under 10 posts :)

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Zakath

Maybe, maybe not...


:readthis: Some teachings of Jesus...

"Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn " 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law-- a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.' - Mt. 10:35-35

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple." - Lk 14:26


And for all our biblical literalists, this part of John's vision in Revelation (allegedly from Jesus)...

I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia." - Rev. 14:14-19



"He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name." Rev. 14:10


I'm not sure what's "better" about Jesus' way, Willi. :think:

some of this has been covered in my "why own a gun" thread
some in my "path to peace" thread

im most happy to talk about what i see as a misunderstanding of the Word

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by granite1010

Are you going to acknowledge the God of the OT was fundamentally bloodthirsty and condoned barbarism and savagery committed by the Hebrews?
i will NOT apologise for what has happened.
what did, did.
i am not smarter then God.

take from the OT what you like, be happy you were not Gods enemy then.


What about the Word Jesus teaches says this is to continue?
does Jesus say i am to stone you to death if you become atheist?

am i to correct an atheist, here on earth today, with a sword, or the Word of Jesus?

if you learn the Word, you have peace within yourself, you do NOT seek the blood of your enemy

[Granite]

Originally posted by brother Willi

i will NOT apologise for what has happened.
what did, did.
i am not smarter then God.

take from the OT what you like, be happy you were not Gods enemy then.


What about the Word Jesus teaches says this is to continue?
does Jesus say i am to stone you to death if you become atheist?

am i to correct an atheist, here on earth today, with a sword, or the Word of Jesus?

if you learn the Word, you have peace within yourself, you do NOT seek the blood of your enemy

...or what "might" have happened. Considering that evidence for most of the Old Testament simply doesn't exist.

I'm not asking for an apology; I'm asking you to acknowledge something.

When everything in your gut tells you something's reprehensible, contrary to God's supposed nature, and you just shrug it off, it says more about Christians than former ones.

I'm more happy I'm not a former Christian, say, a hundred years ago (when it still resulted in losing your reputation in some areas, maybe your job), four hundred years ago (when I could have been pressed to death; go Puritans) or five hundred years ago (when I would have been tortured and subsequently burned to death in Christ's name).

Also, I'm not an atheist. Either way you can't "correct" somebody back into the faith. You can't "reason" them back into the fold. Using reason is contrary to Christianity. "Correction" within the church is just a form of control.

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by granite1010

Catty beat me to it. It's in there, all right.

O.K. well at least I reserved a convenient "out" for myself, that is, he didn't necessarily say everything the Bible attributes to him. Sorry, I'm a big fan of Jesus. Say anything you want about Jehovah, but Jesus is my man.

[cattyfan]

O.K. well at least I reserved a convenient "out" for myself, that is, he didn't necessarily say everything the Bible attributes to him. Sorry, I'm a big fan of Jesus. Say anything you want about Jehovah, but Jesus is my man.

how have you decided which of the quotes are Christ's and which ones are not?

[STONE]

Originally posted by wickwoman

You will notice, Granite, that Christians will deny you ever were a Christian. It's difficult for them to admit that any person would turn away from christianity having had an authentic Christian experience.

"Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Mt 13: 18-23)

[Granite]

Here's where I'm at.

1) someone can have a "genuine"--to them--experience, live a Christian life, talk the walk...and still wind up in hell (remember, miracles, exorcisms, and carrying Christ's name does not promise he'll "know" you when you die)

2) which means it can happen to anyone, so there's no guarantee for any Christian who stays in the church or not

3) so, it's essentially a crap shoot, from a Christian's perspective

4) or you can leave the church, meaning your experience was somehow not "genuine," despite everything you believed at the time

5) which leads to my second point

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by cattyfan

how have you decided which of the quotes are Christ's and which ones are not?

One can logically assume that the Biblical references which contain love and understanding can be attributed to God and his/her followers while those which contain the common human sentiments and behaviors such as judgment, hatred, etc., are the ramblings of men and nothing else.

[cattyfan]

One can logically assume that the Biblical references which contain love and understanding can be attributed to God and his/her followers while those which contain the common human sentiments and behaviors such as judgment, hatred, etc., are the ramblings of men and nothing else.

rich, rotted, horse manure. Picking and choosing what you want to believe without any kind of rhyme, reason, or proof except you not liking some of what's said is one of the funniest "theologies" I've ever encountered.

here would be an example: the adultress. Jesus didn't stone her, but he did judge her behavior to be wrong, "Go and sin no more." So is this one of Jesus's quotes in your book, or not?

[PureX]

Originally posted by cattyfan ....how have you decided which of the quotes are Christ's and which ones are not? The ones that promote love and forgiveness and healing are the ones that come from God. The ones that promote condemnation and division and fear are the ones that came from religious zealots who "edited" the story to make Jesus represent their own sick views of God and man.

Simple.

[BChristianK]

Originally posted by wickwoman

One can logically assume that the Biblical references which contain love and understanding can be attributed to God and his/her followers while those which contain the common human sentiments and behaviors such as judgment, hatred, etc., are the ramblings of men and nothing else.
Wickwoman,

Please rescue my hope that you subscribe to some rational thought by telling us this was a joke...

[cattyfan]

The ones that promote love and forgiveness and healing are the ones that come from God. The ones that promote condemnation and division and fear are the ones that came from religious zealots who "edited" the story to make Jesus represent their own sick views of God and man.

Simple.

You are one who is always seeking proof. where is yours?

Also, what about the example I gave.

[Goose]

Originally posted by granite1010

Well, the name of the thread pretty much sums it up.

I no longer consider myself a Christian, a member of the Christian faith, believer in Christ or the Bible.

I came to TOL last year considering myself a born again member of the body of Christ. And it's been a crazy year. Not easy. Only a year? Wow. Most people are stuck with it for their entire lives. Congrats! Where will you go from here? :think:

[wickwoman]

Dear Cattyfan:

I like you, so I'll ignore the insulting tone you've adopted. And, the story of the woman caught in adultery is an excellent example of the true Jesus. I have no problem with the word "sin." It's what keeps us separated from God. Now, I don't believe so much that Jesus had a problem with how many men she slept with or whose husbands they were, but I think this was more of a question of the woman's search for God and fulfillment in the wrong places.

Dear Purex:

Exactly!

Dear BChristianK:

This should not surprise you. And, it's no different than what anyone does, it's only difficult for you to see it in print. Chew on it for a while and you will realize that EVERYONE does this. You're getting testy again. I think you need another sabbatical. Is it worth the grief? God knows, I ask myself that same question.

[wickwoman]

Dear Granite:

I just want to talk to you again because I have all these "warm fuzzy" feelings about your epiphany. Many would deny it is an epiphany but it is. And, soon you will see. I hope you are not discouraged or disappointed. If you are, then you were looking in the wrong places. God is who we look to, not man. He/she will not disappoint you.

A couple of Zen sayings are very meaningful in reference to your search:

"It is better to let go of illusions than to cling to the truth."

and

"Do not seek the truth. Merely cease to cherish opinions."

This is what you've done, you've let go of illusions and opinions. Now, the world is your oyster. You will find what you are looking for. I give you Wickwoman's personal guarantee.

[BChristianK]

Originally posted by PureX

The ones that promote love and forgiveness and healing are the ones that come from God. The ones that promote condemnation and division and fear are the ones that came from religious zealots who "edited" the story to make Jesus represent their own sick views of God and man.

Simple.

Cmon! Purex, ya can't just say all the stuff you like is legit and everything else is an addition! You of all people should now that this is just dumb. This is a textual critical method for morons. You can't read any book this way and sound like a rational human being.
:doh:

Snap out if it, you are both too intelligent to really believe this.

I'll tell you what, from now on, I'll conclude that the parts of your and wickwoman's posts that I like are from you, and the parts I don't agree with were written by secret agents who broke into your homes and used your computers to add stuff.

I'll start with this crazy method of biblical interpretation the secret agent at wickwoman's computer proposed and the secret agent that broke into your house to agree with her.

BACK OFF! Secret Agents! I know you're in there!

:darwinsm:

Grace and Peace

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by granite1010



When everything in your gut tells you something's reprehensible, contrary to God's supposed nature, and you just shrug it off, it says more about Christians than former ones.



first- what is correction?
is it correction if you kid plays in the street, and you explain the danger?
is it correction when i tell OT lovin bloodthirsty christians they got the message from Jesus wrong?

second-who died on those battle fields of the OT?
how do you know it was not just that they died?

does Jesus teach peace amoung ALL men?

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by PureX

The ones that promote love and forgiveness and healing are the ones that come from God. The ones that promote condemnation and division and fear are the ones that came from religious zealots who "edited" the story to make Jesus represent their own sick views of God and man.

Simple.

by "edited" do you mean in the Bible, or in their hearts?

[BChristianK]

Dear Granite:

God is who we look to, not man. He/she will not disappoint you.

I thought, you thought man was a subset of God?
:confused:

Grace and Peace

[Mr. Coffee]

The topic of hell and the wrath of God has come up here and I'd like to make a few observations.

The wrath of God is an expression of his goodness.

In our own experience as moral beings we understand the necessity of wrath. In that one cannot be truly caring if one is incapable of morally appropriate anger and horror, we have a finite and analogical (and all too human) way of understanding this very important aspect of God's nature. The retributive emotions have their legitimate place in our moral life. There are times when one cannot act otherwise, for to do so would be neither wisdom nor serenity. It would be sociopathy.

None of this is to imply that our anger is always holy. Because of sin, our anger is usually self-righteous, not God-righteous. The wrath of God is pure and just.

And none of this is to imply that the Christian God is anthropomorphic. Rather, it goes the other way around: we were made in the image of a moral God.

A few words about hell. I think that I should start with the Christian concept of the self. The Buddhist concept of the self is that it is a never-resolved patterning tendency that ultimately disappears into Nirvana, about which we can say nothing. The Christian concept of the self is different: you are revealed to be something, a definitive kind of person, at the moment of death--you are what you have done, and you are judged as such. We spend our lives making a life that is constituted by our choices and actions (and there are no morally irrelevant human acts), and this is who we are. And we are sinners. And we are justly and necessarily opposed by the holiness of God. It is perfectly good for God to hate sinful people. It would not have compromised or diminished his love if he had only loved justice. Salvation is completely gratuitous. You are your own worst problem, and you are saved through someone else: "I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me." Apart from the atoning work of Christ, heaven would vomit you out.

It has been said here that Christianity teaches that God is basically saying, "believe in me or I'll punish you forever." We are not saying that God is hungry for applause. The condemnation of sinners is a moral judgement: it is a fact that God should be loved and served, and God is just to repudiate the evil of idolatry and unbelief.

God's judgement on the Cannaanites has come up. Glenn Miller has shown that what seems like the "Unfair genocide of the Canaanites" is really the "Less-than-they-deserved punitive deportation from the land"--filled with patience and mercy and 'second chances'. It was nonetheless a judgment, and nonetheless involved death--as it later would be repeated to His people. Miller's full, careful treatment of the topic is available here. (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qamorite.html)

[smothers]

Originally posted by brother Willi

i will NOT apologise for what has happened.
what did, did.
i am not smarter then God.


You shouldn't apologizie, none of the mystical things ever happened.


take from the OT what you like, be happy you were not Gods enemy then.


More likely thank goodness you weren't enemies of God's fan club who used their belief in her as a blunt instrument.



if you learn the Word, you have peace within yourself, you do NOT seek the blood of your enemy

Really? Why do most fundamentalist Christians support pre-emptive strikes against their enemy? Bloodthirsty acts and Christianity are historically closely related.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by smothers
Really? Why do most fundamentalist Christians support pre-emptive strikes against their enemy? Bloodthirsty acts and Christianity are historically closely related.

remember the show "Alll in the family"

alot of Archy Bunkers here.

FEAR is the number one enemy to understanding what Jesus taught.

[BChristianK]

Dear BChristianK:

This should not surprise you.

It doesn’t, but it should.

And, it's no different than what anyone does, it's only difficult for you to see it in print.

No, it is quite different from what anyone else does. There are scores of books written on the principles designed to determine what texts can be determined to be accurate and which have interpolations, redaction and errors. None of those books advocate picking and choosing what is historically accurate and what isn’t on the basis of wishful thinking.
Your method is the embodiment of a logical fallacy “appeal to consequences.�

Chew on it for a while and you will realize that EVERYONE does this.

No, everyone does not. And if everyone did, then everyone would be committing a logical fallacy. So even if everyone did it, it would still be moronic.

You're getting testy again.

Why, because I am disagreeing with you? Look, there are just some things that one cannot sugar-coat. This is one of them. Actually, I think I was being kind by jovially dealing with the issue instead of pointing to the gravity of your method.

God does not take well to His word being perverted. It really shows a fundamental lack of respect for God’s word to interpret it in such a haphazard manner. Such a method not only betrays a lack of studiousness but also flies in the face of the common sense.

Furthermore, it really is a slap in the face of those who spend countless hours doing anything and everything to correctly understand those ancient words, with the guiding help of the Holy Spirit, so that they might love their God with their heart, soul, mind and strength, and do so with more than just empty words, but holding God’s word in their hearts with all seriousness and respect.

I know of many men and women who study endlessly, diving into the original languages, searching though scholarly material, I know many seekers of truth who spend sleepless nights trying to understand the truth as God has communicated it, not wasting one second on the foolish thought of how they can make it fit their silly notions of how things out to be – I know many godly men and women who have spent hours on their knees asking God to reveal to them the truths in that book so that they can hide it in their hearts and treasure it.
And it offends me more than words can say that you would think that you have the right to interpret the bible frivolously to meet your own ends.

Just in case no one has yet told you.

The bible is not your book.

You do not have the right to change it to fit your desires or to ignore the parts you don’t like.

If you do change it to fit your own desires then you do so to your own detriment. If you teach others to do so, you do so to your own destruction. (2 Peter 3:16).
Don’t think I say such stern warnings joyfully, I desire none of these things for you, but I would be no friend if I let you mislead yourself or others while I stay silent.

You asked me.

Is it worth the grief? God knows, I ask myself that same question.

Maybe you should ask yourself the same question regarding your method of biblical interpretation.

Grace and Peace

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

Lighthouse--I'd disagree. (Maybe not a surprise.) I believed the truth of God by not examining it. I trusted scripture and Christianity without ever questioning it. Unfortunately, the minute you start asking questions, you get into some kind of "danger zone", as far as many Christians are concerned. As though questioning why you believe what you do is somehow beyond the pale.

I have sought God. And I think I have found him. Unfortunately it doesn't seem as though what I found lines up with what I believed before.
You wanna know something weird? I question what I believe, all the time. And I have found myself to be wrong, on many occasions. I have found that the truth does not line up with what I had believed, or what I was taught. I hope you seek the truth, and find it, instead of just walking away from Christ, altogether.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

Here's where I'm at.

1) someone can have a "genuine"--to them--experience, live a Christian life, talk the walk...and still wind up in hell (remember, miracles, exorcisms, and carrying Christ's name does not promise he'll "know" you when you die)
No, they don't. But an intimate relationship with Him gaurantees your place in His Body.

2) which means it can happen to anyone, so there's no guarantee for any Christian who stays in the church or not
It can't happen to anyone. It only happens to those whose faith is inot in Christ, but in fallacy.

3) so, it's essentially a crap shoot, from a Christian's perspective
Not from mine, it isn't.

4) or you can leave the church, meaning your experience was somehow not "genuine," despite everything you believed at the time
That depends on what you;re leaving. Are you leaving the "church," the religion, or Christ?

5) which leads to my second point
No it doesn't. See my response to your second point.

[Lighthouse]

Okay, I have some more points to make.

1] Miracles don't mean squat. They don't influence faith in any way, shape or form. Think about it. If you already have faith in God, then a miracle is not going to make it any stronger. And if you don't have faith in God, and a miracle makes you believe, that is not faith...it is only belief. And even the demons believe.
2] I do not fear hell. And I never have. I do not fear the torment. If I did fear hell, it would be the eternal absence from my loving Heavenly father that would scare me. But I know I have nothing to fear, for He is with me. And I am His.

[avatar382]

Granite:

Good luck on your journey. I remember when I lost my faith, it felt like it was torn from me. I WANTED to believe so bad, yet the more I wanted to find what I wanted to hear and the more I searched, the further away I found myself from Christianity. It was an exceptionally difficult time for me - I had to wrestle with my own self all while putting forth an image of being a good little Christian for my zealous family and Church community.

Regardless of the diffcult times, after I got through it all, it felt incredibly refreshing to be free of dogma and religion. Like others have already expressed, my life feels so much more precious now than it ever did when I was a Christian.

Anyway, here is a story I read a while ago on iidb (internet infidels discussion forum) that really touched me because it seemed so much like my own struggle. It's the testimony (or anti-testimony, if you will) of a fundamentalist Christian woman who did everything right - yet had her faith torn from her much like happened to me. You might enjoy it or be touched by it like I was: Here is the link -
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=72552