All men?

[Sozo]

"All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Are all men sinners, without exception?

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Sozo

Are all men sinners, without exception? :think: I can only think of one exception. ;)

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Turbo

:think: I can only think of one exception. ;)

Yes, Turbo, thank you for your clarification. I did not consider that there might me someone who would call Jesus a sinner.

And, of course, my questions are directed at the points made specifically by those passages in relation to man's condition prior to the provision.

[1PeaceMaker]

This implies that no matter how well you train a child(even John, filled with the Holy Ghost from the womb) that child will still eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and need to come to Christ through the condemnation of the law, to get spiritual life.

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Sozo

"All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Are all men sinners, without exception?

Are all men justified, without exception?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by logos_x

Are all men justified, without exception?

In Him, yes.

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Sozo

In Him, yes.

:thumb:

And in the end...all will be in Him.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by logos_x

:thumb:

And in the end...all will be in Him.

I'm not prepared to make that leap.

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Sozo

I'm not prepared to make that leap.

It IS a leap of faith.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by logos_x

It IS a leap of faith. Whose faith? ;)

[logos_x]

Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Rom 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Whose faith?

God's

[Hilston]

logos_x has just laid waste to Sozo's illogic and Sozo doesn't even see it. Notice how logos_x is at least logically consistent. He views Christ's work as sufficient. Sozo cannot say that Jesus saved him because Sozo is, by his theology, his own savior. The only way out of the logical quandry is for Sozo to admit (a) that all men without exception will be in Christ for eternity, or (b) that Christ's work was not intrinsically sufficient to save anyone.

Do you see and agree with the logic, logos_x?

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Hilston

logos_x has just laid waste to Sozo's illogic and Sozo doesn't even see it. Notice how logos_x is at least logically consistent. He views Christ's work as sufficient. Sozo cannot say that Jesus saved him because Sozo is, by his theology, his own savior. The only way out of the logical quandry is for Sozo to admit (a) that all men without exception will be in Christ for eternity, or (b) that Christ's work was not intrinsically sufficient to save anyone.

Do you see and agree with the logic, logos_x?

That is absurd Hilston. logos has done no such thing. Sozo has claimed Christ is suffcient. Logic? Come on Hilston or should I say Mr. Spock.

[Sozo]

Well, Jim, we can see that your "logic" :rolleyes: does not extend as far as the question that this thread posed.

Are all men (except Christ) sinners without exception?

[billwald]

Some people will prefer Hell to Heaven.

[Crow]

Christ's work is sufficient, and I've never seen Sozo claim anything different.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Sozo

"All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Are all men sinners, without exception?

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

That peace makes you do works, but they are not works because they are done with joy

[Sozo]

Originally posted by brother Willi

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

That peace makes you do works, but they are not works because they are done with joy

brother Willi... What are you talking about? Did you read the question? Do you understand the question? Do you know what day it is? Do you know what year it is?

[Yorzhik]

Originally posted by Hilston:
logos_x has just laid waste to Sozo's illogic and Sozo doesn't even see it. Notice how logos_x is at least logically consistent. He views Christ's work as sufficient. Sozo cannot say that Jesus saved him because Sozo is, by his theology, his own savior. The only way out of the logical quandry is for Sozo to admit (a) that all men without exception will be in Christ for eternity, or (b) that Christ's work was not intrinsically sufficient to save anyone.
Hilston, please slow down for us slow folks. Here is the question:Are all men sinners, without exception?Sozo is referring to "all men without exception" based on these words from the bible:"All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
So the question is: is the bible accurately describing what Sozo is claiming? If not, what do these passages actually mean?

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Hilston

logos_x has just laid waste to Sozo's illogic and Sozo doesn't even see it. Notice how logos_x is at least logically consistent.

No I did not!
I merely was pointing out that the "all men" in these verses mean's the same thing.
All men are sinners.
But there is another "all men" there!
I just was drawing attention to the fact that, while all men are sinners, all men are included in the work of Christ...Christ's redemption affects all men as efficaciously.

He views Christ's work as sufficient.

completely

Sozo cannot say that Jesus saved him because Sozo is, by his theology, his own savior.

That is not what Sozo believes. He has been as consistent as anyone, and very passionate, about the fact that salvation is in Christ, by grace, through faith.
Sozo is not his own savior.
No one is.

The only way out of the logical quandry is for Sozo to admit (a) that all men without exception will be in Christ for eternity, or (b) that Christ's work was not intrinsically sufficient to save anyone.

While I agree that choice "(a)" is indeed true, and I believe that Sozo knows better than choice "(b)", There are variences of interpretaion of scripture and opinions that fall within the framework of Christian theology.

Besides...if being 100% correct was a requirement of salvation, "no man" would make it.
(Which, I believe is the point of this thread )

Do you see and agree with the logic, logos_x?

Yes and no. Your premise is sound on the bit that everyone will, in the end, be saved. God will draw "all men" unto Himself. It doesn't follow that "not all men are sinners."
Salvation is, after all, for sinners. We all qualify.

[Lighthouse]

I think the only point in which logos_x and Sozo disagree is whether or not all will be in heaven. Sozo believes, and I agree, that all sins are cleansed. But only those who accept the finished work of Christ, on the cross, will be in heaven, and everyone else gets a one way ticket to the lake of fire.

P.S.
I agree that all men are sinners. Well, before they accept Christ.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by brother Willi

Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

That peace makes you do works, but they are not works because they are done with joy

BW, you're really becoming a one trick pony, aren't you? You know, that's the mark of a madman.

[Hilston]

Crow writes:
Christ's work is sufficient, and I've never seen Sozo claim anything different.

Of course, Sozo claims that, but his theology belies the claim. Probably yours, too. If you believe you must do something to be saved, then Christ's work was insufficient to save. You must save yourself by availing yourself to His provision.

logos_x writes: "No I did not! I merely was pointing out that the "all men" in these verses mean's the same thing. All men are sinners. But there is another "all men" there!They're not the same? What biblical warrant do you have to decide that a different "all men" is being talked about?

logos_x writes:I just was drawing attention to the fact that, while all men are sinners, all men are included in the work of Christ...Christ's redemption affects all men as efficaciously.So, logically then, everyone, all men, will be in Him: Saved? Right? Isn't that what you're saying?

Didn't you this say in an earlier post?: "And in the end...all will be in Him"

That should be the logical conclusion of those who believe Jesus died for everyone without exception. I thought that's what you were affirming. Now you're not?

Remember when Sozo responded with this?: "I'm not prepared to make that leap."

In other words, he's not prepared to bring his theology to its logical conclusion, which is, IF Christ's work was for all men without exception, and IF Christ's work was sufficient to save, then it logically follows that all men without exception will be saved. Which you correctly, by this logic, asserted, a leap that Sozo is "not prepared to make."

You guys are fighting yourselves and don't even see it.

[Hilston]

Originally posted by lighthouse
I think the only point in which logos_x and Sozo disagree is whether or not all will be in heaven.That point suffices to drive a significant wedge between their theologies. logos_x is consistent and can claim that Christ's work was sufficient. Sozo and lighthouse cannot claim that, because they believe there are those who will not be in heaven.

Originally posted by lighthouse
Sozo believes, and I agree, that all sins are cleansed. But only those who accept the finished work of Christ, on the cross, will be in heaven, and everyone else gets a one way ticket to the lake of fire.See what I mean?

[philosophizer]

Jim, I didn't know you were a universalist.

[Hilston]

Yorzhik writes:
Here is the question:

Are all men sinners, without exception?That is true.

Yorzhik writes:
Sozo is referring to "all men without exception" based on these words from the bible:

"All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

So the question is: is the bible accurately describing what Sozo is claiming? If not, what do these passages actually mean?The Bible affirms, for each dispensation, that all men without exception are sinners. The two verses cited above teach total depravity for Israel and the Body of Christ respectively. In the first verse, "all" refers to the elect of Israel only, and the fact that God decreed from before the foundation of the world the suffering, torture and murder of His own Son in behalf of the chosen ones of Israel.

In the second verse, "all" refers to the elect of the Body of Christ only, and answers the question: "If the Body of Christ was chosen from before the foundation of the world, i.e., prior to the fall of man and the entrance of sin into the world, how is it that the predetermined members of the Body of Christ are sinners." Paul answers with the above-cited verse.

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by Sozo

brother Willi... What are you talking about? Did you read the question? Do you understand the question? Do you know what day it is? Do you know what year it is?
:confused:
why are you speaking so cryptically?

[brother Willi]

Originally posted by philosophizer

BW, you're really becoming a one trick pony, aren't you? You know, that's the mark of a madman.
:D

BW->:kookoo:

[natewood3]

Hilston,

You guys are fighting yourselves and don't even see it.

:chuckle:

[Redfin]

*

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Hilston

Of course, Sozo claims that, but his theology belies the claim. :sigh:

Jim,

You are like the little kid in pre-school, who is so insecure, that he has nothing better to do but make up lies about the other kids. He repeats them over and over, in the hopes that someone will buy into his stories and be his friend. Unfortunately, most kids like that, never grow up, and they end up being boneheaded exclusionists their whole life.

If you believe you must do something to be saved, then Christ's work was insufficient to save. If Jesus had not been born, lived, died, and rose from the dead... exactly how do you think we could have saved ourselves?You must save yourself by availing yourself to His provision. Not if God says that in order for the provision to save you, you must accept it as the provision. If God requires a response from you, and you reject it for another way to be saved, then you are only mocking God for His plan of salavtion.

logos_x writes: I merely was pointing out that the "all men" in these verses mean's the same thing. All men are sinners. But there is another "all men" there!

Little Jimmy responds: They're not the same? What biblical warrant do you have to decide that a different "all men" is being talked about?

Jimmy, how do you differentiate that the "first "all men" from the second "all men" in the same verse?

It is clear that they are the same "all". The same men who are condemned (all men without exception), are the same men (without exception) who have the justification of life.

Does this mean that all men have life? No, it does not., Jimmy, it simply means that all men have been justified to receive life.

[logos_x]

Posted by Hilston

Crow writes:
Christ's work is sufficient, and I've never seen Sozo claim anything different.

Of course, Sozo claims that, but his theology belies the claim. Probably yours, too. If you believe you must do something to be saved, then Christ's work was insufficient to save. You must save yourself by availing yourself to His provision.

You can enter in now Hilston, by His grace, through faith. All Christians who understand salvation affirm this.
Now, I happen to believe that Hell is in reality redemptive. If you want to go that route you are free to "do nothing".

The Bible describes salvation as something we grab hold of. We take it. There is action on our part to enter in.

If you are saying that this isn''t true then we are not in agreement in the least, and I have more in common with Sozo's position than yours.




logos_x writes: "No I did not! I merely was pointing out that the "all men" in these verses mean's the same thing. All men are sinners. But there is another "all men" there!


They're not the same? What biblical warrant do you have to decide that a different "all men" is being talked about?

Of course they are the same.
I don't know about other planets...but here, all pretty much means all.



logos_x writes:I just was drawing attention to the fact that, while all men are sinners, all men are included in the work of Christ...Christ's redemption affects all men as efficaciously.


So, logically then, everyone, all men, will be in Him: Saved? Right? Isn't that what you're saying?

In the end, yes, the entire universe and all of reality and all men....everything!
Some will go through hell to get there.

Didn't you this say in an earlier post?: "And in the end...all will be in Him"

Yes I did. And that means everyone will enter in. Everyone will be "in Christ".
By faith we can enter in now.


That should be the logical conclusion of those who believe Jesus died for everyone without exception. I thought that's what you were affirming. Now you're not?

Yes I am affirming this, wholeheartedly.
Again..eternal life is in Christ. No one comes to the Father but by Him. For all to be saved requires Jesus' complete victory.
Here's another bit of information. I said all will be saved in the end. this does not mean they are saved right now.

Remember when Sozo responded with this?: "I'm not prepared to make that leap."

In other words, he's not prepared to bring his theology to its logical conclusion, which is, IF Christ's work was for all men without exception, and IF Christ's work was sufficient to save, then it logically follows that all men without exception will be saved. Which you correctly, by this logic, asserted, a leap that Sozo is "not prepared to make."

Again, I am saying that even Hell...even God's wrath...is consistent with God's ultimate intentions of Christ being all in all.
But ultimate salvation, that is... that all will be in Chist in the end, does not say they are saved right now...get it?
All will be saved ultimately. Some through faith, others through punishment, chastisment and correction.

You guys are fighting yourselves and don't even see it.

Don't think so.
There is a walk that is by faith...many will enter in through this by His Grace.
Even faith itself is a gift of God.
We aren't to be passive recievers. We are to be active partakers.
Most of Sozos position is merely pointing out the distiction between faith and un-faith. "Saved" and "un-saved".
Sozo and I agree on what that means.
I believe, though, that everyone will get there "in the end". Not everyone can make that leap, because they view Hell differently than I do.



Originally posted by lighthouse
I think the only point in which logos_x and Sozo disagree is whether or not all will be in heaven.

That point suffices to drive a significant wedge between their theologies. logos_x is consistent and can claim that Christ's work was sufficient. Sozo and lighthouse cannot claim that, because they believe there are those who will not be in heaven.

I'm hoping to remove that wedge, Hilston...not drive it in.
Buy a clue!



Originally posted by lighthouse
Sozo believes, and I agree, that all sins are cleansed. But only those who accept the finished work of Christ, on the cross, will be in heaven, and everyone else gets a one way ticket to the lake of fire.


See what I mean?

Hilston...I believe this.
I believe though, the lake of fire destroys all evil, all sin...even death will be destroyed. I hold, though, that God is also at work...Hell purifies, like a refining furnace. It will burn away all dross from the soul, cleansing and purifying...literally a soul "makeover".
At the end of this process they will be unhindered from entering in by faith.
In the end...Christ will be all in all.

[Redfin]

Here's a simple way to phrase the truth of the issue -

Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all people, but it is only efficient for those who possess living faith in it.

[Hilston]

Sozo writes:Jim,

You are like the little kid in pre-school, who is so insecure, that he has nothing better to do but make up lies about the other kids.Is that the best you can do? You have no way of wiggling out of your logical bind, so you resort to insult. See if you can follow this, Sozo: If I expose the fallacy of your reasoning, I am not lying. Maybe my logic is flawed; maybe I am misunderstanding some point of argument. But I am not telling lies. The charge concerns a point of logical inference. For you to charge me with childish lies shows that you don't even grasp the challenge that has been put to you. It is not a matter of denying a bald prevarication, but of clarifying the logical inferences of your theology, which you do not even recognize. I did not come here to convince you of anything. I think you are intransigent. You have dug in your heels and will not budge from your illogic, no matter what is said to you or about you. My repetition of these things here is to demonstrate to others how induction does not work in the world of D.I.Y. soteriology.

Sozo writes:
He repeats them over and over, in the hopes that someone will buy into his stories and be his friend. Unfortunately, most kids like that, never grow up, and they end up being boneheaded exclusionists their whole life.Are you telling me that I won't win friends this way?! :noway: Are you telling me that this isn't the way to be an inclusive person?! :noway: Please tell me, what must I do to have more friends and be more inclusive? If I follow Sozo's example, I'm guessing I would have to (a) check my logical faculties at the door, (b) make insult and name-calling my preferred method of dialogue, (c) adopt a logically indefensible and biblically untenable theology, (d) make fool out of myself in public about things I know nothing about, and (e) never apologize or retract anything I've said, no matter how obvious my stupidity is to all [pantas? or pantan?].

Sozo writes:
If Jesus had not been born, lived, died, and rose from the dead... exactly who do you that could have saved themselves?Um ... what? I'm not the one irrationally claiming that salvation depends on our acceptance of an all-sufficient provision.

Hilston wrote: [According to Sozo] You must save yourself by availing yourself to His provision.

Sozo writes:
Not if God says that in order for the provision to save you, you must accept it as the provision.You just said the same thing I said you said. You must accept, avail yourself to, the provision in order for that provision to save you, which means you are saving yourself. Life preservers don't save people unless they grab ahold of it. A person who is rescued must cooperate. He can say to his rescuer, "You saved me," but the rescuer can also say, "You helped. You saved yourself by grabbing the life preserver."

Sozo writes:
If God requires a response from you, and you reject it for another way to be saved, then you are only mocking God for His plan of salavtion.I don't deny that God requires a response. I just deny that my response saves me. Since you say that your response saves you, you can't say that Jesus saves you.

Sozo writes:
logos_x writes: I merely was pointing out that the "all men" in these verses mean's the same thing. All men are sinners. But there is another "all men" there!

Little Jimmy responds: They're not the same? What biblical warrant do you have to decide that a different "all men" is being talked about?

Jimmy, how do you differentiate that the "first "all men" from the second "all men" in the same verse?I don't. They're the same.

Sozo writes:
It is clear that they are the same "all". The same men who are condemned (all men without exception), are the same men (without exception) who have the justification of life.That's your unproven, unbiblical and illogical assumption.

Sozo writes:
Does this mean that all men have life? No, it does not., Jimmy, it simply means that all men have been justified to receive life.That's no justification at all, Sozo. Justified means to be made righteous. The righteous of this dispensation will be with Christ forever. If all men without exception are justified (made righteous), then all men without exception will be with Christ forever. But I know you won't see this. You've become willfully ignorant in order to halt between two opinions. Perhaps others will see it. I won't hold my breath.

In the meantime, will anyone be Jimmy's friend? :(

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Redfin

Here's a simple way to phrase the truth of the issue -

Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all people, but it is only efficient for those who possess living faith in it.
:BRAVO:

[Hilston]

Apparently, neither Redfin nor Lighthouse knows what "sufficient" means.

[Redfin]

Originally posted by Hilston

Apparently, neither Redfin nor Lighthouse knows what "sufficient" means.

Apparently Hilston has no answer to a truth simply stated. :think:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Hilston

Apparently, neither Redfin nor Lighthouse knows what "sufficient" means.

Sufficient: Enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end; Content; Adequate.

Proposed: To put forward for consideration; To make known as one's intention.


"And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward: not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God; who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant"

Here Paul tells us that we are "sufficient ministers". We have been given everything we need to accomplish his purpose or intent.

"Whoever will call upon the name of the LORD will be saved." How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach unless they are sent?"
Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all people, but it is only efficient for those who possess living faith in it. :thumb:

[Hilston]

Combined reply to Redfin and to Sozo's sychophants:

Redfin writes: Apparently Hilston has no answer to a truth simply stated.

This is what convinces me that you're not accustomed to having your specious claims challenged. This is the silliest and easiest of "simply stated 'truths'" to refute. Sozo doesn't realize it (or admit it), but his definitions self-devastating.

Sozo writes::
Sufficient: Enough to meet the needs of a situation or a proposed end; Content; Adequate.

Proposed: To put forward for consideration; To make known as one's intention.Note the glaring self-refutation: If God's proposed end (intention) is to save all mankind without exception, then, not only is Christ's work insufficient, but God is a miserable failure, having lost the vast majority of souls to the enemy.

[logos_x]

Hilston wrote:
I don't deny that God requires a response. I just deny that my response saves me. Since you say that your response saves you, you can't say that Jesus saves you.


We are in agreement that God requires a response.

We are in a debate of what that response does


Ok...we are in agreement that salvation is in Christ.
Now...HOW do we get in Christ?
In the same way "all men" were included in condemnation, all men are included in Christ's victory.
But...many have not entered in, yet...
Agreed?
The men who have entered in are the carriers of salvation.. .
we carry this salvation. We are saved experientially .
Our response brings us into the experience of salvation.

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (not exclusively)of those that believe.

It's just not there to you
until you put your faith in it.
It was always there...but you are dead to it. You don't see it. Your blind to it.

Rom 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Now...to see this you must be born of the Spirit.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Grace...working through faith, opens your Spiritual eyes. You see what is already there and it becomes real to you.

Hilston is correct to point out that it isn't our response that saves us. It is the finished work of Christ that saves us.
Sozo is correct that we don't even know about Christ's finished work until we come to faith in the finished work of Christ.
We can enter in and experience God's salvation...God's grace...through faith. We receive the witness of the Spirit that we are "sons of God".

Why does this have to be so difficult?

[Rightglory]

To All,

In reading through this thread there seems to be a woeful misunderstanding of Christ's work on the Cross, for whom it was done. Using some quotes from throughout the thread here is the Biblical way of looking at Christ's works.

It is clear that they are the same "all". The same men who are condemned (all men without exception), are the same men (without exception) who have the justification of life.

All of you are stumbling over the word, redemption, which is not in any of the texts used. First a little logical theology which is somewhat stated in the first text used. We are saved from the fall. Or because Adam sinned, he was judged, that condemnation is what is passed to all of mankind. It is this condemnation, death, that Christ's work fulfills primarily. He corrects the fall. He frees mankind from the bondage of death and sin. Sin is the result of our being dead. Born dead.
Texts which show or support this including the one used originally are: II Cor 5:14-19, Col 1:15-20, John 5: 28-29, Rom 5: 14-19, I Cor 15:2--22, Acts 24:15, Acts 23:6, Eph 1:10, Gal 4:5, John 12:32.

This also shows that Christ redeemed the universe as well. The material world also suffered from the condemnation of Adam. Thus all needed to be redeemed.
Thus the redemption is universal because the condemnation was universal. Christ redeemed all so that all could have the free choice to accept Him. The condemnation of Adam separated mankind from God. It prevented God and man to fulfill the created purpose of man. Adam was in this process, that is, conforming to the Image of God, when he sinned and separated himself from God.

That condemnation was death, Physical death. Meaning a separation of body and soul. Man in no shape can ever redeem himself. That is why Christ came Incarnated to redeem mankind to make it possible for man again to be in communion with God. God redeemed (saved) all mankind from annihilation, an eternity of both phyical death and spiritual death. Man needed to be made right, to be put back into a right relationship so that communion could be possible. That is why all men are justified, made right or righteous, to be put into a correct relationship. He did all this so that His will might be fulfilled in that all men could be saved. He wills that none perish, but He also created man in His Image which included a free will. Thus man has a part in his salvation or destruction.

Does this mean that all men have life? No, it does not., Jimmy, it simply means that all men have been justified to receive life.
This is incorrect. All men received life, read the texts given above. All men will live in eternity. Some in blessedness with Christ, others in damnation. All will have eternal life or live eternally.
The simple summary of this is: By His death all men have been made alive, but by His life we Live IN Christ to fulfill our created, predestined purpose.



But ultimate salvation, that is... that all will be in Chist in the end, does not say they are saved right now...get it?
All will never be IN Christ. This is not the reverse of the fact that Christ will be all in all.

don't deny that God requires a response. I just deny that my response saves me. Since you say that your response saves you, you can't say that Jesus saves you.

Jesus saved all of mankind so that individual man could be saved. That personal salvation is a synergistic faith, a cooperation between man and God. It is correlated with Adam's walk in the Garden. He exercised his free will as we can at any time in our lives. There is no passivity in salvation. Even the unsaved must make a choice, a choice on which they will be judged. We are not judged on what Christ has done, but on what we have done.


That's no justification at all, Sozo. Justified means to be made righteous
That is correct but not in the legal sense here, In the Hebrew and Greek meaning of the word, to be put into a right relationship.


Note the glaring self-refutation: If God's proposed end (intention) is to save all mankind without exception, then, not only is Christ's work insufficient, but God is a miserable failure, having lost the vast majority of souls to the enemy.

That statement only comes because you fail to understand the Biblical message and the inherent structure of man's image. God redeemed everyone. Now it is up to everyone to make a decision for or against Christ. God honors His sovereign will, in that, He created man with a free will. Freely to choose to love, obey and serve Him. God does not compel man to love or obey.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Hilston
Note the glaring self-refutation: If God's proposed end (intention) is to save all mankind without exception, then, not only is Christ's work insufficient, but God is a miserable failure, having lost the vast majority of souls to the enemy.
Jim,

You are quite correct concerning your comments on the idea in regard to the Lord's "intentions".

However,that does not change the fact that the Lord "wishes" or "desires" that all men be saved.

"Who will have all men to be saved,and to come unto the knowledge of truth"(1Tim.2:4).

The words "will have" are translated from the Greek word "thelo",which can mean "to desire,to wish"("Thayer's Greek English Lexicon").

So the Lord "desires" that all men be saved.The Lord also "desires" that all men come to the knowledge of the truth.

But there are those who say that even though the Lord desires that all men come to the knowledge of the truth that He only gives some the ability to come to the knowledge of the truth.

They teach that only some men are given the gift of faith while others are not given the very thing that allows them to in fact come to "the knowledge of the truth".

So if we are to believe these people we must believe that God "desires" all men to come to the knowledge of the truth but at the same time He witholds from some men the very instrument that will give them the ability to come to the knowledge of the truth.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Rightglory

This also shows that Christ redeemed the universe as well. The material world also suffered from the condemnation of Adam. Thus all needed to be redeemed.
Rightglory,

The Scriptures reveal that the whole creation was "reconciled" by the death of Christ (Col.1:20),and not "redeemed" as you say.

In His grace,--Jerry

[Lovejoy]

What was the answer to the original question on this thread? I have always been taught that all men are sinners, which is to say that we have not the capacity to cease from sin on our own, but that all men can find redemptions from that sin in Christ. There is a difference between those in Christ and those without, but I am still not sure as to its nature.

As to the other subject, "He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters" (Matthew 12:30). How can those against Christ be in Him? And why would He bother saying it if it was not going to happen? He warns against idle words just a few scriptures down! Why would He speak them Himself?

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Rightglory



That condemnation was death, Physical death. Meaning a separation of body and soul. Man in no shape can ever redeem himself. That is why Christ came Incarnated to redeem mankind to make it possible for man again to be in communion with God. God redeemed (saved) all mankind from annihilation, an eternity of both phyical death and spiritual death.

Completely!


Man needed to be made right, to be put back into a right relationship so that communion could be possible. That is why all men are justified, made right or righteous, to be put into a correct relationship. He did all this so that His will might be fulfilled in that all men could be saved. He wills that none perish, but He also created man in His Image which included a free will. Thus man has a part in his salvation or destruction.

And the real miracle would be to save all men when all have free-will.
But..."free-will" implies free indeed, something we really don't have apart from God. Even THAT needs redemption.


This is incorrect. All men received life, read the texts given above. All men will live in eternity.

Eternal life is in Christ only!

Some in blessedness with Christ, others in damnation.

Wherefore do you doubt?
You did run so well, what hath hindered you?
Christ will be all in all.


All will have eternal life or live eternally.

Yes...in Christ

The simple summary of this is: By His death all men have been made alive, but by His life we Live IN Christ to fulfill our created, predestined purpose.

Yes...




All will never be IN Christ. This is not the reverse of the fact that Christ will be all in all.

What?
Are you daft?
A doubleminded man?
All will never be in Christ? What kind of statement of faith is that? Who's faith is talking here?

This is what we're up against.
This ever present God can't do it.
He's done everything possible...but we were too much for Him.

Horse Hockey!

Jesus saved all of mankind so that individual man could be saved. That personal salvation is a synergistic faith, a cooperation between man and God.

Now you're saying He did save all.
Well, guess we all go though that....

We are not judged on what Christ has done, but on what we have done.

Indeed. If you understand justice this is true. If you understand mercy, you pray for that mercy.

That is correct but not in the legal sense here, In the Hebrew and Greek meaning of the word, to be put into a right relationship.

legalism is for pharisees.
not interested in that leaven.
Jesus warned us about it.
and a little leaven changes the whole.




That statement only comes because you fail to understand the Biblical message and the inherent structure of man's image. God redeemed everyone. Now it is up to everyone to make a decision for or against Christ. God honors His sovereign will, in that, He created man with a free will. Freely to choose to love, obey and serve Him. God does not compel man to love or obey.

Actually I believe that is the purpose of Hell.
But who's listening?

[Aimiel]

If Chris't work on the cross truly saved every soul that ever lived, why didn't heaven open, the moment He arose from the dead? I believe that it is because The Good News, that Jesus arose from the dead, proving that He is our Ressurrection and Life, and being accepted as sacrifice for our sins, must be preached into all the world, as a witness unto all nations, until every living soul on this earth has had their chance to hear this message. Jesus can save all men from hell, but not all will be saved. The Bible is clear about that, because Jesus separates the sheep from the goats. The tares are left in the wheat, until harvest.

[Delmar]

Christ threw a life line to evry single soul! Most of them throw the rope back!

[Aimiel]

Rejecting the truth because they say, "Men wrote the Bible, not God," is the same thing as saying, "No, thanks, I'll be fine on my own. Who needs God?"

[Delmar]

yup

[Rightglory]

Jerry,

The Scriptures reveal that the whole creation was "reconciled" by the death of Christ (Col.1:20),and not "redeemed" as you say. That particular text does, however, all three words, redeem, reconcile, justify all have the same intent or meaning, which is, to make right again, to put into harmony, to put into right relationship.

[Rightglory]

logos_x

And the real miracle would be to save all men when all have free-will.
But..."free-will" implies free indeed, something we really don't have apart from God. Even THAT needs redemption. Actually we don't have anything apart from God. But, Yes, our wills, our nature, everything needed to be redeemed.

Eternal life is in Christ only! The text show that eternal life is through Christ for all, but in Christ for believers.

My quote; All will have eternal life or live eternally.
your response: Yes...in Christ Only believers IN Christ. We were all made alive through Christ, all will live eternally, but not as saved.

This ever present God can't do it.
He's done everything possible...but we were too much for Him I don't really understand what you are attempting to say, except that you seem to be a universalist. Not all will be saved. All have been redeemed but the personal salvation of man is up to man. He must decide what to do with Christ. That is the express purpose of God creating man in His Image, which included a free and independent will. God does not impose what He specifically created or foreordained that man should do.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Hilston


Note the glaring self-refutation: If God's proposed end (intention) is to save all mankind without exception, then, not only is Christ's work insufficient, but God is a miserable failure, having lost the vast majority of souls to the enemy.

You are still perverting what others say, without exception.

God's intention was that all men be saved through His Son.

You can claim that Jesus was not sufficient to do that, all you want, but the fact remains that Jesus wholly accomplished the task that God intended.

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Sozo
You are still perverting what others say, without exception.Saying so doesn't make it so, Sozo. Prove that I've perverted the words of others. What you call "perversion" I call the logical conclusion of your claims. You claim the sufficiency of Christ's work, but then you claim people must add to that work in order to get themselves saved. You pervert logic, Sozo. And I have proven it time and again.

Originally posted by Sozo
God's intention was that all men be saved through His Son.I agree, and the "all men" that God intended to save will be saved through the sufficient work of His son. Your view is that some of the "all men" will wind up in hell, which means (a) you cannot logically claim that the Son's work was sufficient, and (b) you cannot logically claim that Jesus saved you.

Originally posted by Sozo
You can claim that Jesus was not sufficient to do that all you want, ...I'm not the one making that claim. I'm the one exposing your theology as necessitating that claim, but you seem to be too chicken to come right out and say it.

Originally posted by Sozo
... but the fact remains that Jesus wholly accomplished the task that God intended. Did Jesus wholly accomplish the task of saving all men?

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by logos_x

Now it is up to everyone to make a decision for or against Christ. God honors His sovereign will, in that, He created man with a free will. Freely to choose to love, obey and serve Him. God does not compel man to love or obey.

Logos replied: Actually I believe that is the purpose of Hell.
But who's listening? We're listening, it's just that we take God's Word way ahead of yours.

And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Looks like God's Word saw your little philosophy, ahead of time, and decided to refute it with Truth.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Hilston


Did Jesus wholly accomplish the task of saving all men? Nope, because that was not God's intent. God's intent is that all men are saved through His Son. I have proven it time and again. The only thing that you have "proved" is that you are both a Calvinist, and a pervert.Your view is that some of the "all men" will wind up in hell, which means (a) you cannot logically claim that the Son's work was sufficient, and (b) you cannot logically claim that Jesus saved you. blah...blah.. blah... Saying the same stupid thing over & over again, is not going to change the truth of God into lie, try as you may.

[Aimiel]

Saying that because something is God's Will, that it will come to pass (without taking into account that it is not God's Will that men sin, but you have to realize that they do) is like calling God the author of sin, because men sin, and, according to His Word He does not want men to sin. God can and does will that only good occurs, but you forget to take into account sin. Sin is against His Will.

[Rightglory]

Hilston,

You pervert logic, Sozo. And I have proven it time and again.
You have simply proven that you don't understand scripture. Logic has nothing to do with it.

I agree, and the "all men" that God intended to save will be saved through the sufficient work of His son. Your view is that some of the "all men" will wind up in hell, which means (a) you cannot logically claim that the Son's work was sufficient, and (b) you cannot logically claim that Jesus saved you.

Because you have a misunderstanding of what Scripture is actually saying. Christ's work on the Cross is objective. It applies to all of mankind and the universe. It corrected the judgement of Adam, Death, and freed mankind from that bondage of death and sin. Why? In order that man could again be in union with God. The relationship is the salvation of individual man. Christ's work on the Cross only enabled man to be in this relationship.
The Bible will use the word 'saved' 'redeemed' interchangeably. God's intention is that all men have the opportunity to be saved. Thus the Bible will use the word(s) saved and save because it ultimately refers only to those who will accept the free gift made possible. The gift does not stop or only pertain to redemption, but also is applied to or for believers. The sacrifice also provided for the forgiveness of sins. Even though death was overcome, man will still have his sinful nature and still live in a sinful world, so that those sins we commit can be forgiven. It is the sin that separates us ,that keeps us out of communion. We need constant repentance to stay in communion.
Adam did not have a problem with having communion with God. The spiritual relationship with His creator. However, his sin, brought death and death made it impossible to be in union or communion with God. Death needed correction before man could again be in communiion. Thus our personal salvation, that is being conformed to His Image is what man was created to be doing with God, the same as Adam was before he sinned.

The Father gave all to Christ, Christ lost none. All were or are redeemed.
See Romans 5:8-11. Paul is speaking of sequencial events. Redemption vs 8, vs 9 makes a transition for all being justified, we shall all be saved from wrath through Him., then vs 10 again reemphasizes the two parts of salvation. Reconciled through His death. Saved by His life. vs 11 transfers that reconciliation from God through Christ to man. It is one of our works we were created to perform as part of our own salvation.

I'm not the one making that claim. I'm the one exposing your theology as necessitating that claim, but you seem to be too chicken to come right out and say it. You have simply exposed your misunderstanding of salvation.

Did Jesus wholly accomplish the task of saving all men?

Absolutely, He saved all men from certain eternal physical death, eternal separation of body and soul and thus also spiritual death, separation from God. It in essence would have annhilated man as he was meant to be, as he was created to exist and the annihilation of creation itself.
God did not create man to have him lost forever. He created Him for a purpose, that purpose was to be confomed to His Image and to be eternal with Him. But this conforming was to be done freely, not under complusion, or done by Him, why create then, but by freely loving, obeying and serving Him.
Adam (Eve) listened to the Devil, and decided to go it alone. Do it without God. It seems that many today want to do the very same thing. They believe that God will do everything for them, when He specifically created man to perform these good works.
Very simply, God saved man, in order that man could once again perform his created purpose.
That created purpose is the subjective, or personal salvation of man.
You might also check John 17:24 which is part of Christ's fourfold prayer. Vs 24 starts the portion dealing with the world. Those in the world. God gave all to Him. He lost none.

[Hilston]

:first: POTD, Sozo! Congratulations! You've demonstrated several times over how you've been utterly disarmed by the simple logic of the argument. You have yet to explain the most gaping flaw in your espoused theology, and with every post that you refuse to answer the challenge put to you, you confirm even further that you, in fact, do not have an answer that doesn't violate basic logic. Oh sure, you can continue to quote verses till your blue in the fingers, but the fact that your ability to use logic is so obviously and severely hamstrung, you disqualify yourself from quoting the scriptures with any integrity.

My favorite part is this:

Hilston asked: "Did Jesus wholly accomplish the task of saving all men?"

Sozo replies (are you all sitting down?):

"Nope, because that was not God's intent. God's intent is that all men are saved through His Son."

Now remember Sozo's original statement?:
"... the fact remains that Jesus wholly accomplished the task that God intended."

:darwinsm: Does it get any better than this?

[Sozo]

Jim... Here is an opportunity for you to delete your post, before anyone sees it, and laughs at you for making a complete donkey's butt of your self.

What I said is perfectly logical, and the fact that you cannot comprehend it, reveals a great deal about your inability to think.

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Rightglory
You have simply proven that you don't understand scripture. Logic has nothing to do with it.You guys are killing me! Please! Stop! I don't think I can take much more of this.
:darwinsm:

Originally posted by Rightglory
Christ's work on the Cross only enabled man to be in this relationship.But Christ's work doesn't actually save, does it? It just "enables" man to save himself.

Originally posted by Rightglory The Father gave all to Christ, Christ lost none. All were or are redeemed.Will anyone suffer in hell for their sins?

Originally posted by Rightglory
Adam (Eve) listened to the Devil, and decided to go it alone. Do it without God.Did God make you decide to choose Him? Or did you go it alone?

Originally posted by Rightglory
It seems that many today want to do the very same thing.Indeed. That's what you want, right? God doesn't save you. You save yourself by choosing Him.

Originally posted by Rightglory
Very simply, God saved man, in order that man could once again perform his created purpose.From what you've written, you've totally contradicted yourself. God didn't save anyone -- He just "enabled man to be in this relationship." Merely having the ability isn't sufficient (look that word up). On your view, man must choose, thereby, becoming his own savior.

Originally posted by Rightglory You might also check John 17:24 which is part of Christ's fourfold prayer. Vs 24 starts the portion dealing with the world. Those in the world. God gave all to Him. He lost none. The verse makes sense in my view. It doesn't make sense in yours, which is why you're a theological Flying Walenda going around saying "Logic has nothing to do with it." Puh-leeeease!!!! :darwinsm:

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Sozo

Jim... Here is an opportunity for you to delete your post, before anyone sees it, and laughs at you for making a complete donkey's butt of your self.

What I said is perfectly logical, and the fact that you cannot comprehend it, reveals a great deal about your inability to think. Delete it? Oh, hail no! Here, I'll post it again:

:first: POTD, Sozo! Congratulations! You've demonstrated several times over how you've been utterly disarmed by the simple logic of the argument. You have yet to explain the most gaping flaw in your espoused theology, and with every post that you refuse to answer the challenge put to you, you confirm even further that you, in fact, do not have an answer that doesn't violate basic logic. Oh sure, you can continue to quote verses till your blue in the fingers, but the fact that your ability to use logic is so obviously and severely hamstrung, you disqualify yourself from quoting the scriptures with any integrity.

My favorite part is this:

Hilston asked: "Did Jesus wholly accomplish the task of saving all men?"

Sozo replies (are you all sitting down?):

"Nope, because that was not God's intent. God's intent is that all men are saved through His Son."

Now remember Sozo's original statement?:
"... the fact remains that Jesus wholly accomplished the task that God intended."

:darwinsm: Does it get any better than this?

[Sozo]

Suit yourself.

God's intent is that all men are saved through His Son.

Jesus wholly accomplished the task that God intended.



Hilston's intent is to make himself out to be a donkey's butt.

Hilston wholly accomplished the task that he intended.

[Delmar]

your so funny!

[Hilston]

Originally posted by Sozo
Suit yourself.Donkey's butts typically go around unclothed, Einstein.

Originally posted by Sozo
God's intent is that all men are saved through His Son.

Jesus wholly accomplished the task that God intended.If I weren't a donkey's butt, I might think you actually mean that only those who choose to save themselves will actually be saved. However, my existence as the posterior region of a donkey (Equus asinus) somehow hampers my ability to think irrationally. You see, I'm not just any ordinary jackass' bohunkus. No, I'm the hindquarters of an adopt-a-donkey (http://www.thedonkeysanctuary.org.uk/site/2/Adopt_a_Donkey.html), bringing happiness to special (i.e., elect) children. It's an important job.

If I, as the keister of this majestic animal, were to take such a thing as logic so lightly, I might actually presume myself to be the front-end and try to do something I'm just not equipped to do. It would cause untold confusion and I might actually end up thinking that I know what I'm doing when I don't. I might get all illogical and say things like, "This beautiful beast is sufficient to transport this special (i.e. elect) child from the stable to the barn." And despite seeing as plain as day that the child has no way to get up on the donkey by herself, I would continue to say such illogical things as "The donkey's owner wholly accomplished the task he intended by sending this donkey to transport this special (i.e. elect) child from the stable to the barn, even though the child does not have the ability to get up on the donkey by herself."

Originally posted by Sozo Hilston's intent is to make himself out to be a donkey's butt.Not just any donkey's butt, but an adopt-a-donkey's butt.

Originally posted by Sozo
Hilston wholly accomplished the task that he intended.And don't you forget it, Aristotle.

[Rightglory]

Hilston,

But Christ's work doesn't actually save, does it? It just "enables" man to save himself. It is still quite obvious that you do not comprehend the scriptural meaning of salvation. Christ did indeed save all of mankind. He saved the universe. However, that word saved as used here is considered redeemed, justified, or reconciled. God made the universe right with Him. He did this to overcome the judgement of death which was preventing man from having communion with God.
A little background on the anthropology of man here might help you understand just what Christ actually accomplished and for what reason.
Adam was created good. He was created in God's Image. He was created neither mortal nor immortal. However, man was created to be immortal. The purpose of man being created was not for him to cease to exist at some time. Adam was in the process of conforming to that Image in God. That is the salvation of Adam. He was attaining perfection, immortality.
However, as a free being, having been given one commandment, was inticed to disobey, thus sinned, received the judgement, death. Adam immediately died as is evident when God sought Him out and prnounced the judgement. Because sin results from death, now because of the judgement, Adam was unable to be in communion with God as he was created to be.

Christ overcame death, freed mankind from the bondage of death. All of this is universal.
However, each individual must decide what to do with Christ. That decision is made by man and if He accepts Christ and believes in Him he enters a personal relationship with Christ, communion with Him for which he was created. This communion is the salvation of man. the perfection of the conforming to the Image of God. We will not actually do this perfectly in this life.

{quote]But Christ's work doesn't actually save, does it? It just "enables" man to save himself.
It saves, redeems mankind so that individual man can enter into communion with Christ and this relationship is the personal salvation of man as it was originally intended.

Will anyone suffer in hell for their sins?

Absolutely, many men did not accept the free gift given to them. They instead, freely chose to condemn themselves by rejecting Christ.

Did God make you decide to choose Him? Or did you go it alone? No, He did not. It is against His sovereign will to do so. I need to accept Him, but I do not go it alone. Salvation of man is a cooperative effort between God and man as it was between God and Adam.

Indeed. That's what you want, right? God doesn't save you. You save yourself by choosing Him. God saved me, redeemed me so that I am able to again enjoy comminion with Him. I do so freely accepting Him.

From what you've written, you've totally contradicted yourself. God didn't save anyone -- He just "enabled man to be in this relationship." Merely having the ability isn't sufficient (look that word up). On your view, man must choose, thereby, becoming his own savior. That is because you lack spiritual insight to the Truth of the Gospel. You attempt to create your own form of salvation in that God is going to do everything for you, redeem you and save you personally, and you will get to heaven in your view, one way or another. It is total denial of the Gospel Truth.
It is a man-made gospel, yours, and create an easy believism where all responsibility is denied. Actually, is sounds very much like most Americans today. They deny or shun all responsibility for their actions. It is either someone else did it, a gun did it, the perverbial devil made me do it.
It is sin and it is what separates one from God. He provided forgiveness, renewal, so that we can stay in communion with Him. Hell is a reality, an eternal reality and awaits those who reject Christ. One saves himself to use your words but one also condemns oneself. Obviously, by your words, you think Christ will decide for you. At the judgement, Christ will not ask you what I (Christ)has done for you, but what have you done with ME (Christ).

The verse makes sense in my view. It doesn't make sense in yours, which is why you're a theological Flying Walenda going around saying "Logic has nothing to do with it." Puh-leeeease!!!! actually it makes no sense in yours because scriptually you are in left field somewhere. Christ did indeed redeem all mankind. He lost no one the Father gave to Him so that all might be called to repentance. Christ is not responsible for individual man. If He were, we would not be having this conversation. Adam would never have sinned. We are free agents but work with God or we work against Him.

[Redfin]

I found this with a simple Google search. It's pretty straightforward. :think:

Eternal Salvation Is Conditional
A. M. Burton


"Not everyone that saith unto me Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt. 7:21).

Our Divine Lord taught nothing more plainly on earth than the fact that men have something to do in order to be saved. Nothing in all his teaching did he emphasize more than this. To accept only what suits us is to measure the Son of God by our own standards. He who disregards the teaching of Jesus in any respect disregards his authority.

In the conclusion of his grand Sermon on The Mount, he makes the difference between doing and not doing the things which he says, the exact difference between a wise man and a fool. Those who hear his words and do them are wise, building on a rock. But those who hear and do not are foolish, building on the sand. (Luke 6:48-49).

If we accept Jesus as Lord, we are under obligation to do what he says. "Why call ye me Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46), was one of his withering rebukes to those who claim to accept him as Lord and Master, and yet lightly estimate or disregard some of the things which he enjoins.

Since the will of God for man's salvation is conditional, all should be deeply concerned to know the conditions.


Faith — Condition 1

Faith in Christ is made a condition of salvation, hence a condition of the great inheritance. "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:16).

"God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life." (John 3:16).

"Believe on the Lord Jesus and thou shalt be saved and thy house. (Acts 16:31).

"Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples that are not written in this book, but these are written that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name." (John 20:30-31).

These and many other passages of the divine word show conclusively that faith in Christ as the Son of God is a condition of salvation through him.


Repentance — Condition 2

"Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." (Acts 2:38).

"The times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent." (Acts 17:30).

"Except ye repent ye shall all likewise perish." (Luke 13:3).

Such statements as these by the Spirit of inspiration will satisfy all who believe the Bible that repentance is also a condition of salvation.


Confession—Condition 3

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." (Matt. 10:32-33).

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Rom. 10:10).

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water: what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." (Acts 8:36-37).


Baptism—Condition 4

While the believing world generally concedes that faith and repentance are conditions of salvation, it denies a like position to baptism. Yet the Holy Scriptures are as clear in the one case as in the other. Jesus says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved." (Mark 16:16). How could he add "and is baptized," if baptism is not a condition of the salvation promised? That would simply be misusing words and misleading the children of men.

Peter said to the heart-stricken multitude on Pentecost, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins." (Acts 2:38).

Ananias said to the penitent Saul, "Arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16). Saul's sins were not to be washed away in water — for water has no such virtue — but by the blood of Christ which cleanses from all sin.

This blood is reached in obeying him — in being "baptized into his death." "Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Rom. 6:3-4).

Peter says, "Baptism doth also now save us," and this salvation is "not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (1 Pet. 3:21).


A Godly Life — Condition 5

One becomes a Christian — a follower of Christ — by faith, repentance, confession, and baptism, but the future heavenly inheritance is then conditioned upon a godly life. We are to add the Christian virtues to our faith. Our inheritance is conditioned on continuing to be God's children.

"And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue, knowledge; and to knowledge, temperance; and to temperance, patience; and to patience, godliness; and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, charity. For if these be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: for so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2 Pet. 1:5-11).

Link (http://www.gospelpreceptor.com/BurtonA1.htm)

[Lighthouse]

Baptism?:rolleyes:

Steve-
If Christ accomplished the remission of sin on the cross, why would there be a purgatorial stage? What would need purged? Either Christ's sacrafice was sufficient, or it wasn't. Which is it?

[logos_x]

Sozo wrote:

"All of us like sheep have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; but the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him."

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

Are all men sinners, without exception?

To which I asked another question based on these verses...

are all men justified?

Now..it is a mystery to me why people want to insist that the mechanism of sin is so consuming in the human race that they cannot accept the remedy as being totally redemptive of the whole race. God consumes the human race as effectively as sin once did.


rightglory writes:
The text show that eternal life is through Christ for all, but in Christ for believers.

Eternal life outside of Christ is not anywhere to be found in scripture. This is a pagan concept of the indestructability of the human soul.
Christ did not make souls indestructable in order to burn them forever. If that is what you are trying to defend then count me out.

Only believers IN Christ. We were all made alive through Christ, all will live eternally, but not as saved.

What?

I don't really understand what you are attempting to say, except that you seem to be a universalist.

I'm definatly getting there...for reasons that should be obvious.

Not all will be saved. All have been redeemed but the personal salvation of man is up to man.

I don't get it.
Not all will be saved yet all are redeemed?
You culled that out of where?

He must decide what to do with Christ.

Yes we must. Never argued otherwise.

That is the express purpose of God creating man in His Image, which included a free and independent will. God does not impose what He specifically created or foreordained that man should do.

Even though we CANNOT save ourselves?
This argument is an old and tiresome bunch of malarky.
Let me illustrate:
A fireman is paid to rescue people in trouble. If a fireman approaches a burning building and knows someone is trapped inside he has to go in and attempt to save that person. If he goes inside to save them and they refuse his help...will he just walk away saying "oh, well, I tried."
No...I fireman would take them out of there against their obviously faulty will.

Now...God is all powerful...there is nothing He cannot do. Failure isn't applicable to the argument when God is involved.


Posted by Amiel:
And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

These possessed people are in need of some serious help...wouldn't you say?


rightglory writes:
Absolutely, He saved all men from certain eternal physical death, eternal separation of body and soul and thus also spiritual death, separation from God. It in essence would have annhilated man as he was meant to be, as he was created to exist and the annihilation of creation itself.
God did not create man to have him lost forever. He created Him for a purpose, that purpose was to be confomed to His Image and to be eternal with Him. But this conforming was to be done freely, not under complusion, or done by Him, why create then, but by freely loving, obeying and serving Him.
Adam (Eve) listened to the Devil, and decided to go it alone. Do it without God. It seems that many today want to do the very same thing. They believe that God will do everything for them, when He specifically created man to perform these good works.
Very simply, God saved man, in order that man could once again perform his created purpose.
That created purpose is the subjective, or personal salvation of man.
You might also check John 17:24 which is part of Christ's fourfold prayer. Vs 24 starts the portion dealing with the world. Those in the world. God gave all to Him. He lost none.

He lost none!


Sozo writes:
God's intent is that all men are saved through His Son.

Jesus wholly accomplished the task that God intended.

Agreed.


rightglory writes:
Christ overcame death, freed mankind from the bondage of death. All of this is universal.
However, each individual must decide what to do with Christ. That decision is made by man and if He accepts Christ and believes in Him he enters a personal relationship with Christ, communion with Him for which he was created. This communion is the salvation of man. the perfection of the conforming to the Image of God. We will not actually do this perfectly in this life.

Agreed again!


lighthouse wriites:
Steve-
If Christ accomplished the remission of sin on the cross, why would there be a purgatorial stage? What would need purged? Either Christ's sacrafice was sufficient, or it wasn't. Which is it?

Well...why would there be a Hell at all?

If Hell is as some say...eternal conscious punishment....it has no purpose at all! It is punishment just for punishment's sake. It NEVER...through eternity...leads to anything good.
What purpose would God have in acting so vindictively and insatiably with hatred and malice? It goes completely against the character of God!
If Hell isn't consistent with God's intentions of salvation...if it doesn't lead to Christ being all in all, then it serves no purpose whatsoever.

It destroys evil...that is it's purpose.
We need to really look at what that means.

[Rightglory]

Hilston,

Eternal life outside of Christ is not anywhere to be found in scripture. This is a pagan concept of the indestructability of the human soul. Precisely, or didn't you understand the difference between the prepositions, through and in. The fact that the soul is indestructable is and has always been part of God's created purpose of man. The soul has always been immortal.
God united the divine with the material in man. Man is the only creature with a soul.
However, when man (Adam) sinned, death resulted, physical death. This is the separation of body and soul. Man's body would decay and cease to exist, the soul would be eternal, and unless Christ came, that soul (all souls) would have been separated spiritually or spiritual death as well.
Hell is not the destruction of man. You seem to have more of a pagen view here, in that man will be eventually destroyed. God does not destroy His creatures whether they rejected Him or not. He showers good gifts upon them now has given them eternal life as well. However, they will never be IN Christ or With Christ in their eternal existance.

My remark: Only believers IN Christ. We were all made alive through Christ, all will live eternally, but not as saved.
Your response: What? Seems you are having a problem understanding straight up texts. Review of texts: I Cor 15:20-22, Rom 5: 14-19. Acts 24:15, Or to summarize, Adam =death to all, Christ =live to all.

I don't get it.
Not all will be saved yet all are redeemed?
You culled that out of where? that you don't get it, is quite obvious. But the same texts makes the delineation later in the context. You seem to be still stumbling with the words, redeem and saved. But again a summary, All have been redeemed, so that some may be saved.

Even though we CANNOT save ourselves?
This argument is an old and tiresome bunch of malarky.
Let me illustrate:
A fireman is paid to rescue people in trouble. If a fireman approaches a burning building and knows someone is trapped inside he has to go in and attempt to save that person. If he goes inside to save them and they refuse his help...will he just walk away saying "oh, well, I tried."
No...I fireman would take them out of there against their obviously faulty will.
We cannot redeem ourselves but we save ourselves with God's help. Analogies are sometimes poor but yours does not fit the circumstances. It may be what you want God to do for you. but God cannot deny Himself. He explicitly created man with a free will. He will not violate that will even if it means individual man will reject Him and suffer the consequences of that rejection.
See, the problem is, you are confusing what redeemption is all about. It reverses the fall. Our walk with God, communion with Him has not changed from that of Adam. Adam, as we are, were created for a purpose. That purpose is spelled out very clearly. We are doing what Adam was doing before the fall. The fall was merely a blimp in God's plan. Mans individual salvation is not about the fall per se. The fall prevented it from occuring. God corrected the fall, so that man could again do what he was created to do. If the fall had not happened, we would still be doing what is required of us. It would still be called the salvation of man, conforming to the Image of God.

He lost none! You seem to doubt that Christ either didn't or could not redeem, save all of mankind. Do you know of any that He might have missed?

What purpose would God have in acting so vindictively and insatiably with hatred and malice? It goes completely against the character of God!

Your statement is precisely the thought of sinful man. You, as all those who want to put responsibility on God to make yourself unaccountable. It is not God being vindictive or hating. It is all love. God showers you with Grace and love and man rejects Him. Man has been given the consequences. It is not that we don't know. We are responsible for what we do with Christ (God), not the other way around.

If Hell isn't consistent with God's intentions of salvation...if it doesn't lead to Christ being all in all, then it serves no purpose whatsoever. It is but not to your kind of standard. Christ will be all in all. It serves His divine purpose as He decreed it to be. Man was created free and God took the risk that some would actually deny Him even though He showers them with all good things. That they so choose is not God's fault, but man who rejects.

Here are two Church Fathers and their description of Hell.
What is Hell? The answer, of course, is that the eternal fire, like the Kingdom of
Heaven, is within. Here is what St. John Maximovich had to say about it:

"'The end of the world' signifies not the annihilation of the world, but its transformation. Everything will be transformed suddenly, in the twinkling of an eye.... And the Lord will appear in glory on the clouds.
Trumpets will sound, and loud, with power! They will sound in the soul and conscience! All will become clear to the human conscience. The Prophet Daniel, speaking of the Last Judgment, relates how the Ancient of Days, the Judge, sits on His throne, and before Him is a fiery stream (Dan. 7:9-10). Fire is a purifying element; it burns sins. Woe to a man if sin has become a part of his nature: then the fire will burn the man himself. This fire will be kindled within a man; seeing the Cross, some will rejoice, but others will fall into confusion, terror, and despair. Thus will men be divided instantly. The very state of a man's soul casts him to one side or the other, to right or to left.

"The more consciously and persistently a man strives toward God in his life, the greater will be his joy when he hears: 'Come unto Me, ye blessed.' And conversely: the same words will call the fire of horror
and torture on those who did not desire Him, who fled and fought or blasphemed Him during their lifetime!

"The Last Judgment knows of no witnesses or written protocols! Everything is inscribed in the souls of men and these records, these 'books', are opened at the Judgment. Everything becomes clear to all and
to oneself.

"And some will go to joy, while others -- to horror.

"When 'the books are opened,' it will become clear that the roots of all vices lie in the human soul. Here is a drunkard or a lecher: when the body has died, some may think that sin is dead too. No! There was an
inclination to sin in the soul, and that sin was sweet to the soul, and if the soul has not repented of the sin and has not freed itself from it, it will come to the Last Judgment also with the same desire for sin.
It will never satisfy that desire and in that soul there will be the suffering of hatred. It will accuse everyone and everything in its tortured condition, it will hate everyone and everything. 'There will be gnashing of teeth' of powerless malice and the unquenchable fire of hatred.

"A 'fiery gehenna' -- such is the inner fire. 'Here there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.' Such is the state of hell." Archbishop John Maximovitch, "The Last Judgment," Orthodox Word (November-
December, 1966): 177-78.

And here is Dr. Alexandre Kalomiros:

In the new eternal life, God will be everything to His creatures, not only to the good but also to the wicked, not only to those who love Him, but likewise to those who hate Him. But how will those who hate Him
endure to have everything from the hands of Him Whom they detest? Oh, what an eternal torment is this, what an eternal fire, what a gnashing of teeth!

Depart from Me, ye cursed, into the everlasting inner fire of hatred," 47 saith the Lord, because I was thirsty for your love and you did not give it to Me, I was hungry for your blessedness and you did not offer
it to Me, I was imprisoned in My human nature and you did not come to visit Me in My church; you are free to go where your wicked desire wishes, away from Me, in the torturing hatred of your hearts which is
foreign to My loving heart which knows no hatred for anyone. Depart freely from love to the everlasting torture of hate, unknown and foreign to Me and to those who are with Me, but prepared by freedom for the
devil, from the days I created My free, rational creatures. But wherever you go in the darkness of your hating hearts, My love will follow you like a river of fire, because no matter what your heart has chosen, you
are and you will eternally continue to be, My children.


That is Christ all in all.

[logos_x]

Eternal life outside of Christ is not anywhere to be found in scripture. This is a pagan concept of the indestructability of the human soul.



Rightglory replied:
Precisely, or didn't you understand the difference between the propositions, through and in. The fact that the soul is indestructable is and has always been part of God's created purpose of man. The soul has always been immortal.
Not according to the Bible.

God united the divine with the material in man. Man is the only creature with a soul.
However, when man (Adam) sinned, death resulted, physical death. This is the separation of body and soul. Man's body would decay and cease to exist, the soul would be eternal, and unless Christ came, that soul (all souls) would have been separated spiritually or spiritual death as well.
These are presumptions read into the text of scripture. If you approach the text with the assumption that souls are naturally immortal it necessarily scews your exegesis.
Souls are not naturally immortal. This is a pagan, unbiblical anthropology that is read into the text.
Eternal life is a gift of God. Nobody has it naturally.

Hell is not the destruction of man. You seem to have more of a pagen view here, in that man will be eventually destroyed. God does not destroy His creatures whether they rejected Him or not. He showers good gifts upon them now has given them eternal life as well. However, they will never be IN Christ or With Christ in their eternal existance.
Hell IS the destruction of evil.


My remark: Only believers IN Christ. We were all made alive through Christ, all will live eternally, but not as saved.
Your response: What?

Seems you are having a problem understanding straight up texts. Review of texts: I Cor 15:20-22, Rom 5: 14-19. Acts 24:15, Or to summarize, Adam =death to all, Christ =live to all.
Seems you are. YOU say all live eternally regardless of their relationship with God, not me.


I don't get it.
Not all will be saved yet all are redeemed?
You culled that out of where?

that you don't get it, is quite obvious. But the same texts makes the delineation later in the context. You seem to be still stumbling with the words, redeem and saved. But again a summary, All have been redeemed, so that some may be saved.
Why do you keep repeating this? Are you somehow hoping it will finally make sense?
By your premise…Christ’s death created eternal conscious torment. And those experiencing this are redeemed.
Horse Hockey!


Even though we CANNOT save ourselves?
This argument is an old and tiresome bunch of malarky.
Let me illustrate:
A fireman is paid to rescue people in trouble. If a fireman approaches a burning building and knows someone is trapped inside he has to go in and attempt to save that person. If he goes inside to save them and they refuse his help...will he just walk away saying "oh, well, I tried."
No...I fireman would take them out of there against their obviously faulty will.


We cannot redeem ourselves but we save ourselves with God's help. Analogies are sometimes poor but yours does not fit the circumstances. It may be what you want God to do for you. but God cannot deny Himself. He explicitly created man with a free will. He will not violate that will even if it means individual man will reject Him and suffer the consequences of that rejection.
See, the problem is, you are confusing what redeemption is all about. It reverses the fall. Our walk with God, communion with Him has not changed from that of Adam. Adam, as we are, were created for a purpose. That purpose is spelled out very clearly. We are doing what Adam was doing before the fall. The fall was merely a blimp in God's plan. Mans individual salvation is not about the fall per se. The fall prevented it from occuring. God corrected the fall, so that man could again do what he was created to do. If the fall had not happened, we would still be doing what is required of us. It would still be called the salvation of man, conforming to the Image of God.
And God succeed in this effort. Completely!
God knows the end. He has known it from the beginning. And He said He will draw all men to Himself.



He lost none!

You seem to doubt that Christ either didn't or could not redeem, save all of mankind. Do you know of any that He might have missed?
I seem to doubt this?
He lost NONE!
It is you who doubt this.


What purpose would God have in acting so vindictively and insatiably with hatred and malice? It goes completely against the character of God!



Your statement is precisely the thought of sinful man. You, as all those who want to put responsibility on God to make yourself unaccountable. It is not God being vindictive or hating. It is all love. God showers you with Grace and love and man rejects Him. Man has been given the consequences. It is not that we don't know. We are responsible for what we do with Christ (God), not the other way around.
And you are trying to paint the view of Hell as eternal conscious torment as somehow being an expression of that love!
I do hope that by now people can see the total depravity of the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment.


If Hell isn't consistent with God's intentions of salvation...if it doesn't lead to Christ being all in all, then it serves no purpose whatsoever.

It is but not to your kind of standard. Christ will be all in all. It serves His divine purpose as He decreed it to be. Man was created free and God took the risk that some would actually deny Him even though He showers them with all good things. That they so choose is not God's fault, but man who rejects.

It is Gods “fault�, if your view is correct, because God made it that way!
Since God CANNOT act immorally as the view of the nature of Hell as eternal consciouse torment portrays…it has to be false.

And here are what other Church fathers have to say:
According to Dr. J. W. Hanson in his book, "Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine," the first comparatively complete systematic statement of Christian doctrine ever given to the world was by Clement of Alexandria, A.D. 180, and universal salvation was one of the tenets.

Clement declared that all punishment, however severe, is purificatory; that even the "torments of the damned" are curative.

Origen, another of the early church fathers explains even Gehenna as signifying limited and curative punishment, and both, as all other ancient universalists, declare the 'everlasting' (aionion) punishment, is consonant with universal salvation.

To quote Clement of Alexandria, "He saves ALL universally, but some are converted by punishment, others by voluntary submission."

Universalism was generally believed in the best centuries, (the first three, when Christians were most remarkable) for simplicity, goodness and missionary zeal. With the exception of the arguments of Augustine, (A.D. 420), there is not an argument known to have been framed against Universalism for at least 400 years after Christ, by any of the ancient fathers.
All ecclesiastical historians and the best Biblical critics and scholars agree to the prevalence of Universalism in the earlier centuries. From the days of Clement of Alexandria, to those of Gregory of Nyssa and Theodoret of Mopsuestia (A.D. 180-428), the great theologians and teachers, almost without exception, were Universalists.

The first theological school in Christendom, that being in Alexandria, taught Universalism for more than 200 years. To quote Clement again, "We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer: to redeem, to rescue, to discipline, in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life" "All men are his....for either the Lord does not care for all men...or he does care for all. For he is savior; not of some and for others not...and how is He savior and Lord, if not the savior and Lord of all? For all things are arranged with a view to the salvation of the universe by the Lord of the universe both generally and particularly."

It appears that the early church fathers were not only advocates of the doctrine of universal reconciliation but, also of "Ultimate reconciliation" as well.

Gregory of Nyssa said, "All punishments are means of purification, ordained by Divine Love to purge rational beings from moral evil and to restore them back to communion with God"
"....God would not have permitted the experience of hell unless He had foreseen through redemption, that all rational beings would, in the end, attain to the same blessed fellowship with Himself."

Let's ponder for a moment, the way Robert Farar Capon closes the above quotation. He says, that all rational beings would "in the end," attain to the same blessed fellowship with Himself."
The issue of "Final Things", the eschatology, of the fear-based theologies of the world's religions, including Christianity, seems to be the overriding struggle paralyzing their adherents in horror and debilitating insecurity concerning how this entire scenario will ultimately turn out. If you doubt the outcome, you inevitably doubt the out-from. If you cannot and do not trust the Author, then you will not trust the Finisher of our Faith.

Revelations 22:13 says, "I am the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Most people don't have difficulty beginning or starting a thing, whether marriage, business or ministry-it is the completion of the thing that seems to be the great paradox of choice.
The great question seems to remain, "How will this all end? What will be the final outcome of this intriguing ordeal we call Life?"

God, who is omniscient, knew from the day He created man in His image and likeness, what man was capable of doing and what he would, in actuality, do. The scripture says Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. (Revelations 13:8)
In Luke 10:17-20, Jesus tells His disciples to rejoice, not because demons are subject to them in His name, but because their names were written in heaven. Since this took place before the Cross or resurrection, how were their names already written? And who could have written them but God himself perhaps in creation or before it.

The suggestion must be that this entire issue of the redemption of humankind to God was discussed and decided before the foundation of the world!

Capon explains it like this: "In God the end is fully present in the beginning; the beginning is fully realized in the end. He didn't have to change his mind, drop a stitch, pull out a row, reverse engines or slam on his brakes."
The sins of Adam and Eve in the garden didn't shock heaven and throw it into chaos. The Master plan was already in place and there was a natural flow of response by God's power and Grace.
The book of Revelation ends with the masses of humanity "cast into the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND death" (Revelation 21:8)

Even before John received his revelation, Paul writes the ultimate response to the question of death, the first or second. He says in 1 Corinthians 15:26 that the last enemy to be destroyed, (rendered inoperative) is death. Could that statement by the Apostle include the ultimate victory of Christ's blood even over the Lake of fire, the second death?

The Greek word for brimstone is "Theion" and it means flashing/sulphur. It is a derivative of the word "Theios" which means "godlike or in the neuter, divinity." Both these words are derivatives of the Greek word, "Theos" which means "deity or God."
If the lake of fire is burning with divinity or god-likeness, or perhaps God Himself as a purifying agency, then the ultimate triumph of Christ over the last enemy is that much more logical.
The purging power of God in the flames of the Lake of fire, into which all remaining impurities are purged, means we can rejoice in the ultimate declaration of Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:55, which was a repeat of the words of the Prophet Hosea (Hosea 13:14), "Where O death is your victory? Where O death is your sting? The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
"Where O death is your victory? Where O death is your sting?" The power of death is sin (washed away by the blood, John 1:29) and the power of sin is the law (abolished now by Jesus, Ephesians 2:15). But, thanks be to God! He gives us the victory though our Lord Jesus Christ!
The question posed to death (grave) infers it has lost it's victory or it's triumph. And death has lost it's sting, which means in effect, it's poison or toxicity it's lethality. Through the cross, death has been defanged and defrocked. It literally has no power whatsoever! Hebrews 2:14-15 suggests that death has been neutralized, literally put out of a job, or lost it's original functionality.
The question Paul poses to death and the grave in the Corinthian passage is, in effect, a mockery of death. It literally pokes fun at death like children do to each other when one loses a game on a school playground. "Ha, ha, ha, death has lost it's victory."
The utility that gave death it's sting (sin) has been cancelled, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away (expiates) the sin of the world" John 1:29 and 2 Corinthians 5:19. And the utility that gave sin it's power (law) has been both fulfilled in Jesus (Matthew 5:17-20, Colossians 2:13-15) and abolished in His flesh (Ephesians 2:15).
If, in fact, Jesus nailed the law (with us) to the cross as recorded in the Colossian passage, then the punishment for sin has been assumed by Jesus; thus making hell or any further punitive action irrelevant, except perhaps for its curative value.
Except for some form of corrective significance of purgation (purging) as inferred by some of the early church fathers, the way I see it, hell will have no significance in the ultimate finality of God's plan for a peace prevailing eternity where every knee bows and every tongue confesses the Lordship of Christ.
Many scholars interpret the word "punishment" used in Matthew 25:46 (kolasin in Greek) to mean purgative or curative.
In Revelations 20:12-14, an emptied death and an emptied hell is cast into the lake of fire, which proves it's (hell's) limitation. As pointed out earlier, the lake of fire will, more than likely, have an awesome as well as, if you insist, awful purifying effect. It will, in effect, burn off any remaining dross of unbelief, rebellion or disobedience. Remember, even those "under the earth" will proclaim the Lordship of Christ and bow their knees to his Excellency. (Philippians 2:9-11)

Many may find it difficult to see a totally triumphant Christ, but I don't. I believe with all my heart that the Last Adam far exceeds in efficacy the first one.
I believe as well, Jesus is in fact superior to Adam and that the better covenant with better promises are exactly that. (Hebrews 8:6).
I realize that much of what I say here is a real stretch for most believers, even the nontraditional ones. However, if you want or choose to believe in a more "excellent way" and a completely victorious church, headed by a completely victorious Christ, then this will resonate with your spirit, even it if initially troubles your mind.
My prayer is that you will give it serious and prayerful consideration as something sent of God, revealed in this particular season and prepared for a 21st century harvest of souls and Kingdom advancements unprecedented since Pentecost and the days of the 1st century Pauline Epistles.

See "God's Inclusive Love" (http://www.higherd.org/html/inclusion.htm)

[Rightglory]

Hilston,

Souls are not naturally immortal. This is a pagan, unbiblical anthropology that is read into the text.
Eternal life is a gift of God. Nobody has it naturally.
Your making the assumption that a soul is what constitutes man. The soul has been immortal. However, man has not been. Adam was in the process of achieving immortality. Man consists of both body and soul. He cannot exist of only one part. That is why Christ needed to redeem mankind. Man would have been annihilated, eternally separated, body and soul.

[quote]Hell IS the destruction of evil. The end of evil or sin.

Seems you are. YOU say all live eternally regardless of their relationship with God, not me.
Obviously then, you don't read them straight up. You apparently need to reinterpret them to fit something you need to prove.

By your premise…Christ’s death created eternal conscious torment. And those experiencing this are redeemed.
Well, what can one say. You really do not understand what scripture is saying. Adam's sin brought death. As such man was held in bondage to death and sin. Christ overcame death, freed man from that bondage so that man could make a choice. Redemption does not save from Hell unless one choses to participate in the free gift. If not, one is condemned already. Christ's death did not create the torment, as you say. It was already there.

And God succeed in this effort. Completely!
God knows the end. He has known it from the beginning. And He said He will draw all men to Himself.

Absolutely. He is drawing all men to himself. Christ and His redemptive work made it possible for God to pour out His Spirit upon all flesh. However, drawing is not saving. Man is the free agent here. God draws but man decides. That is why man is responsible for what he does or choses, not God or Christ. Again, you seem to want to stick to the idea that God is going to somehow change His purpose in creating man.

{quote]I seem to doubt this?
He lost NONE!
It is you who doubt this

I don't doubt it, The Bible is quite clear. However, you are still confusing what redemption does or means biblically, and what saved means respective of man's personal salvation.

And you are trying to paint the view of Hell as eternal conscious torment as somehow being an expression of that love!
I do hope that by now people can see the total depravity of the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment.

No, that is your perception. The very perception that makes it hell in the first place. It is man's perception of that love that creates it. See the quotes I used at the end of the last post.

It is Gods “fault�, if your view is correct, because God made it that way!
Since God CANNOT act immorally as the view of the nature of Hell as eternal consciouse torment portrays…it has to be false.


It is immoral by your interpretation because you place blame on God instead of on man where it belongs. God never made it that way. He provided a condition and created man to be free to either obey or disobey. Man is the one who disobeyed, not God. God has not changed. You may want it to be false, but it is scriptural and real.

It appears that the early church fathers were not only advocates of the doctrine of universal reconciliation but, also of "Ultimate reconciliation" as well.

No, they were not. These are individuals and several of them are not Church Fathers. What is easy for you, is that all false teachings come from the Bible and most have come from within the Church. Thus those outside will pick and choose the false teaching of their liking. Universalism was never accepted by the Church. It was never universally believed by the faithful. That it had a life span of several hundred years is not relevant. Arianism also had a run of at least 400 years, and more acceptance but was never a belief of the Church. Universalism was declared heretical and the teachings of Origin in particular was condemned. It really does not matter whatever anyone else says as it is inconsequencial. It is just perpetuating a heretical and false teaching.

My prayer is that you will give it serious and prayerful consideration as something sent of God, revealed in this particular season and prepared for a 21st century harvest of souls and Kingdom advancements unprecedented since Pentecost and the days of the 1st century Pauline Epistles.

I don't need to give it any thought. It is not sent by God. It may have been revealed through your intellect or someone elses in this day and age, but that is what condemns it as still false. The Gospel was once given, for all. It has not changed since it was given. There are no special, individual revelations. The Bible also clearly points that out as well. It may be soothing to your psyche, but it is not reality.

Your interpretation of the texts dealing with sin is quite unique as well. Sin has been expiated. However, for an individual no sin is forgiven unless repentance is made. Without repentance there is no remission. Again, a very soothing psyche effect to think that one can sin and even sin willfully and God just looks the other way because all sin was paid for.

His expiation was sufficient for the whole world. Even only one drop would have been sufficient. But if only one human being availed himself of that gift, it would have still been worthy.
You seemed to have aligned yourself with a lot of false, even heretical teachings and concepts. None of which are taught in Scripture.
My prayer is that the Holy Spirit would lead you to see the light, to come out from the world and into his marvelous light.

[OMEGA]

What is going to happen to the Beast Guy and the False Prophet

when they are brought back to life after 1000 years ??????????

[logos_x]

:doh:

You won't even consider what I've written.
You won't even read it obviously...because your arguments make absoluteoy no sense.
You say the same things I say in many instances but still cannpt understand what I'm saying.
You accuse me of the same things you yourself do, while I do them far less.

Simply put...you're wrong.
You've made no compelling argument against universalism.
No one has since I've been posting on TOL.

No one has made any arguments that are convincing in any way against Conditional Immortalty either.

But, the arguments are always consistent that I HAVE to be wrong.

Why?

Because it isn't the traditional view.
That's it. It has to be wrong because it isn't the tradition.

If what you are saying is true...prove it!
Snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory for millions.

Jesus will be all in all in the end.
That leaves little room for anything else!
And that is good news.

Some can't stand that much good news.

[Rightglory]

Hilston,

You won't even consider what I've written.
You won't even read it obviously...because your arguments make absoluteoy no sense.
You say the same things I say in many instances but still cannpt understand what I'm saying.
You accuse me of the same things you yourself do, while I do them far less.
Consider, No. Why consider something that for me is heretical. Read it, Yes, I've read it otherwise I could not make that judgement.
My arguments are not mine, per se. They are what has always been believed and accepted as the Gospel once given.
Yes, we use the same words, however, you have placed an entirely new and reconstructed interpretation, which is why it is false and not scriptural.

You've made no compelling argument against universalism.
No one has since I've been posting on TOL.

As compelling as Truth can be. One is never going to refute a false belief that person believes is truth since it is held by him privately. The Truth as it was Given to the Apostles via the Holy Spirit was given once for all. It was ALL Truth. That Truth has been upheld, has been preserved throughout history. That sameness is the authentication of the work of the Holy Spirit in and through His Church, which is His Body. False teachings come and go. They are started by individuals, attempting to impart their additional wisdom to the Truth once given, and will in some cases gain many adherents. But the faithful which is the Body of Christ and Christ as the Head of the Church is the guarantee of All Truth.
The Bible makes this clear as well - I Tim 3:15.

No one has made any arguments that are convincing in any way against Conditional Immortalty either. Since we have 2000 years of history and a Church declaration of its hereticalness, I would say it is quite compelling. It is not compelling to you because it is your personal view and your pride got hurt that it is incorrect, unscriptural, unbiblical.
You really think that you could do a much better job of it than Origen, and have it accepted as the Gospel once given. That somehow the Holy Spirit forgot some little details in His plan of salvation. Of course that would make Him a liar, as He quite clearly stated He gave All Truth to the Apostles.
I don't think, for me at least, you are even in the ballpark with any convincing arugements against Truth.

But, the arguments are always consistent that I HAVE to be wrong. If you understood the Bible better you would realize that what you personally come up with, if it does not align with Scripture as it has always been believed, practiced and upheld by the Holy Spirit, it will be false. See II Pet 1:20

Because it isn't the traditional view.
That's it. It has to be wrong because it isn't the tradition. No, because it is not the Truth as once delievered. See II Pet 1:20 again.

If what you are saying is true...prove it!
Snatch defeat out of the jaws of victory for millions. I have, it has been shown for 2000 years and believed as it was delievered by milliions. A personal philosopy, a personal view or interpretation has no weight whatsoever, if one believes completely in Christ and has submitted completely to Him. That means everything, not just some, or some new private view and reconstruction of Scripture.

Jesus will be all in all in the end.
That leaves little room for anything else!
And that is good news.

Some can't stand that much good news. Yes, he will be, but not the way you have described. I'll stick to the scriptural understanding, not yours. And it is good news that He will triumph. But that might not suit you.

[OMEGA]

You cannot change other people's mind set.

You can only change your own .

Even God could not change the people's minds permanently.

Even we ELECT have to continually work on Ourselves .:angel:

[Rolf Ernst]

The "all" of Romans 5:12 refers to "all" men who were in Adam--all the descendents of Adam.

The "All" in Romans 5:18 upon whom "the free gift came...unto justification of life" refers to ALL those who were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4).

There is