Kim Clement: False Prophet

[Sozo]

TOL's resident "Prophet", Aimiel, has repeatedly promoted one of the most prolific false teachers, and false prophets alive today - Kim Clement. He has led thousands of people down a road of destruction (including Aimiel).

God wants us to go to the back streets. He wants to have a cure for AIDS. He said it’s going to be by the year 2002, there’s going to be a cure for AIDS.... Kim Clement (Praise the Lord), 12/26/2000

In reference to the war in Iraq...

I spoke about certain attacks planned against the soldiers and the fact that God would protect them so that not one of them would be inflicted. I believe with all of my heart that America is in the perfect will of God.... March 19th 2003


"I do not believe that you must be born again to obtain salvation. I believe there is a distinction"

Kim Clement (Doctrinal Statement September 26, 2001)

[Sozo]

Kim Clement :down:

[Sozo]

Aimiel recently posted this in the shoutbox...

Feds Nab 2 in Albany, N.Y., Mosque Raid Aug 5th, 2004 "...They have hidden certain people in this region. Certain people have been hidden that have been actively involved in this war that America has been a part of...God says I will expose two of them that the enemy has endeavored to use to bring shame to the President of the USA." Kim Clement - June 28, 2004

:rolleyes:

[PastorZ77]

Hank Hannegraff blasted this guy on his show yesterday.

[Granite]

What a nut.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

What a nut. I agree... Aimiel is a nut! :D

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Sozo

I agree... Aimiel is a nut!Thank you.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I believe that God is restoring the ministry of the Apostle. I sat under one of the best, Dr. Tim Sheets, at Living Word Church, Middletown, Ohio. I believe that He is also restoring the Prophet's ministry to the church. I am called to that office, and pray that I am chosen. God often uses me in the ministry, and if there had never been a Kenneth Copeland Ministries, I would not be a Spirit-filled believer.... I do not say any of these things to brag, but to state the facts. To do otherwise would be to lie, which I will NOT do.

:kookoo:

[Aimiel]

:troll:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I can't think of a better figure-head for this movement than Kenneth E. Hagin. Many call him 'daddy Hagin.' His teaching ability and eye-opening revelations are unparralled in our day. The man has many schools of ministry, all over this planet. They teach mountain-moving men and women of faith, in all of the five-fold ministry gifts to the Church. Dr. Lester Sumrall was very good friends with him, as was Kathryn Kuhlman. Now if you want to talk about someone being a heretic, you'd better not even think of her in the same paragraph.

Being one of your god's "Prophets", should lead others to beleive that you would have a hint of discernment. Apparently that is not the case.

:kookoo:

[Aimiel]

I discern a mean critical spirit of hatred in you.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

His (Jesus) gifts and ministries are alive and the lifting-up of Jesus that takes place in the 'River' churches, such as Brownsville Assembly, in Pensacola, FL, Vineyard, in Toronto, ON or even the little church I go to, Heritage Fellowship (AOG) in Florence, KY are blessed by the Presence of the revival that just won't stop.
This is long, but an amazing read about why Aimiel preaches another Jesus...

From Jeremy Spencer...

The “Brownsville Revival” began at the Brownsville Assembly of God in Pensacola, Florida on Father's Day, June 18, 1995 under the direction of pastor John Kilpatrick and visiting evangelist Steve Hill. From the very start, this movement has been overflowing with bizarre manifestations and uncontrollable behavior such as laughing, shaking, barking, roaring, and temporary paralysis. While supporters believe this is a true move of God, critics are hesitant to make such a claim.

Many apologists have set out to expose this revival as false, centering their critique on the unusual phenomena exhibited in the services. I contend, however, that these manifestations are not the primary problem. The primary problem with the Brownsville Revival is false doctrine. Just as the presence of a disease produces certain symptoms in the body, this false doctrine produces these revival manifestations--barking, roaring, shaking, etc. Thus, in order to approach the heart of the issue, this false doctrine must be exposed. This article deals directly with Brownsville's false teachings which depart from the Historic Christian Faith in points of vital importance. For instance, Brownsville preaches a false Jesus. They pass on a false spirit. They preach a false Gospel. The Apostle Paul addressed a similar problem within the Corinthian church warning, “For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted; you may well put up with it” (2 Cor. 11:4). And many believers and seekers alike have “put up with it.” Not only have they erroneously embraced Brownsville as a true revival, they have also received the false Jesus, passed on the false spirit, and believed the false gospel of the Brownsville teachers.

The False Jesus of Brownsville

The evidence seems to indicate that the doctrine of Jesus taught by the revival teachers is, at the very least, problematic. Below is a presentation of what three men involved in the current revival movement teach about Jesus. To be sure, each man is not equally involved, but each is closely linked to the Brownsville Assembly of God. The three teachers are David Yonggi-Cho, Rodney Howard-Browne, and Brownsville pastor John Kilpatrick.

David Yonggi-Cho. A Word-Faith pastor from Korea, David Yonggi-Cho is intimately affiliated with the Brownsville Revival. Cho supposedly prophesied the revival in 1991. In fact, the leadership of Brownsville Assembly of God have placed the story of Cho's prophecy on the Brownsville web-site and mentioned the prophecy in a book by Kilpatrick. By accepting the testimony and prophecy of Cho, Brownsville is, in effect, endorsing what he teaches. In his book, The Fourth Dimension, Cho claims about Jesus, “There is a reason to use the power of the spoken word: through it you create and release the presence of Jesus Christ. . . . Jesus is bound to what you speak forth. . . . You create the presence of Jesus with your mouth. . . . He is bound by your lips and your words.” In short, Cho's view of Jesus, which was spoken directly to him by a spirit, is derived from a pantheistic world view which teaches that God is all and all is God. Therefore, man, being one with the All, is divine and can create or change his own reality. If one wants something, then just think or speak forth the reality-changing words. This same teaching is found in witchcraft, occultism, and the New Age. It is also prevalent in the Word-Faith Movement, where it is referred to as “Name-it, Claim-it” health and prosperity teaching. In essence, this teaching has elevated man to the status of God and demoted Jesus to a mere errand boy summoned up to accomplish our whims and fancies. This view of Jesus is heretical, and those who accept it accept a false Jesus.

Rodney Howard-Browne. Rodney Howard-Browne, another Word-Faith proponent, is the man responsible for the “Laughing Revival” of the Toronto Airport Vineyard. Subsequently, the revival was taken from Toronto to Brownsville by the leadership of the Brownsville Assembly of God. Rodney Howard-Browne teaches that Jesus was not God while here on earth. In his book, The Touch of God, Howard-Browne says, “Nothing Jesus did was because He was the Son of God. The Bible says He laid aside His royal robes of deity and when He walked the earth He did so as a prophet under the Abrahamic Covenant.” This statement, claiming that Jesus laid aside His deity while on earth, is a denial of the deity of Christ, which is heresy. Thus, Howard-Browne, a man directly responsible for the current Brownsville revival movement, also teaches a false Jesus.

John Kilpatrick. Brownsville pastor John Kilpatrick, in his book, When the Heavens Are Brass, denies the deity of Christ in a manner similar to Howard-Browne. Speaking of Jesus' miracles, Kilpatrick contends that believers should “walk as Jesus walked--and remember, He did it all as a man who did not pull from any source other than those that are available to man.” In other words, the Jesus did miracles because He was merely a man anointed by the Holy Spirit, or “an anointed man.” This is a veiled claim that Jesus, while on earth, was not fully God--the Spirit had to do the miracles because Jesus was missing some aspects of deity. Additionally, Kilpatrick makes this claim in a not-so-veiled manner. He teaches that Jesus “did not move in omnipotence on the earth.” In other words, Jesus was not all powerful when He was on earth. Next, Kilpatrick claims that Jesus “did not move in omniscience on earth. Had Jesus been omniscient, He would have known when He was coming back.” Finally, Kilpatrick strips Jesus of His deity by claiming, “Jesus was not omnipresent on earth. . . . Jesus could be only in one place at a time because He was not omnipresent.” In all fairness to Kilpatrick, he does claim that Jesus was divine, which is totally contradictory to the statements in the text above. At best, Kilpatrick's statements are contradictory, and thus, by teaching unsound doctrine, he has disqualified himself as a church leader (cf. 1 Tim. 3:2; Titus 1:9). Thus, the Jesus of Kilpatrick, at the very least, is not omnipotent, omniscient, or omnipresent.

There are several problems with such Christology. First, when Jesus took on flesh, He was 100% God and 100% man. The Incarnation did not subtract from His Deity, but added a human nature to the divine Person. The infinite, eternal, unchanging divine Person, without changing or giving up any attribute, took on a new nature, a human nature. Thus, Jesus is two undiminished natures in one Person. He did not become less-than-God as Kilpatrick and Howard-Browne suggest. Second, Jesus did not give up any of His divine attributes. The subtraction of even one divine attribute would mean that Jesus was not God, because the attributes of God “are essential characteristics of His being. Without these qualities God would not be what He is--God.” In other words, God minus even one attribute equals non-God. Apologist Norman Geisler explains that, “God is by his very nature an absolutely perfect being. If there were any perfection that he lacked, then he would not be God.” Third, Jesus did not give up attributes, but submitted to a voluntary non-use of His divine attributes while on earth. He did, however, display His divine attributes at times.

It is incontestable that Brownsville's leadership has serious Christological problems. From the pantheistic Jesus of David Yonggi-Cho, the man who prophesied the revival, to the merely human Jesus of Rodney Howard-Browne, the man who started the revival, to the confusing statements of pastor Kilpatrick, the man who sustains the revival, the Brownsville Revival is preaching a false Jesus. Therefore, this revival cannot be a move of God. As apologist Ron Rhodes has correctly stated, “A counterfeit Jesus who preaches a counterfeit gospel yields only a counterfeit salvation.”

The False Spirit of Brownsville
Brownsville not only preaches a false Jesus, they impart a “different spirit” than the Holy Spirit. The spirit of Brownsville is localized, transferable, and imparted through various occultic techniques. Furthermore, it causes un-Christlike behavior, such as barking, roaring, vomiting, shaking, and paralysis.

The spirit is localized and transferable. The spirit of this revival is contained in one place--Brownsville. Therefore, in order to encounter that spirit, one must visit the “power center” where the spirit operates. To receive the spirit of Brownsville, one must go to Brownsville. Thus, Steve Hill, a Brownsville evangelist, can be heard touting the “value of a pilgrimage” in order to “receive a fresh touch from God.” In other words, one must travel to the power center where the spirit is manifesting itself if an impartation of this spirit is desired.

The spirit does not necessarily remain localized. Once one visits the power center and receives the spirit, one can take that spirit back to one's own congregation and start another power center. Steve Hill claims “People from all over the world have been touched by God's Spirit, either as they come worship with us, or as they visit others who have been here.” Thus, the spirit is passed on exponentially from Hill to seekers, and from seekers to those in their home churches, much like one candle lights a second, then the second one lights a third, and so on. The point is that you cannot receive this spirit unless someone that has it gives it to you.

In contrast, the Holy Spirit of the Bible is omnipresent, or everywhere present. Moreover, He is all-powerful everywhere. Surely, by claiming that the power is localized, Brownsville denies both the omnipresence and omnipotence of the Holy Spirit. Also, one need not visit a “power center” in order to encounter the Holy Spirit. In fact, the notion that the Spirit is more powerfully located in one place and can only be encountered by pilgrimage is thoroughly occultic. One can meet the Holy Spirit anywhere at all. Finally, the Holy Spirit is not invoked by means of a pilgrimage, but sovereignly indwells a person the moment a person believes the Gospel. God is a divine Person we encounter through a loving relationship, not an entity we invoke through various deeds of worship (cf. 1 Kings 18:17-40).

The spirit is received through various “techniques.” The spirit of Brownsville is transmitted by various techniques such as touch, repetition of words, or turning off the mind (meditation).

One technique for imparting the Brownsville spirit is touch. This differs from the biblical practice of laying on of hands to impart the Spirit, because only the Apostles had such ability. This was one of the ways God showed new believers that the Apostles were the chosen leaders of the Church. Common believers did not engage in this activity. Yet, night after night, Brownsville leaders touch seekers to impart bizarre manifestations. Steve Hill enthusiastically moves from seeker to seeker touching forehead after forehead. The result is always the same--the spirit is imparted, causing seekers to shake, laugh, roar, collapse, etc. There is absolutely no biblical basis for this practice, yet it is very common in occultic practice.

This technique, touching to impart power, finds no support in Scripture. Touching in order to impart a spirit, however, is very common in occultic practice. For instance, Swami Baba Muktananda imparted “guru's grace” to followers through touching foreheads. This is a Kundalini yoga technique called “shaktipat,” which produces various “physical and emotional awakenings” such as “laughing, roaring, barking, hissing, crying, shaking, etc.” Guru Shri Dhyanyogi Madhusudandasji, a Kundalini expert, says the following about shaktipat:

Another technique of great importance is Shaktipat, the transmission of energy. A powerful yogi can transmit energy to an aspirant and awaken the Kundalini [power in one's body]. This is accomplished in one of four ways: by touch, gaze, sound or thought. The yogi may touch the disciple and transmit energy through physical contact, or gaze at the disciple and energy flows from the yogi's eyes. The yogi may utter words which carry energy or, more subtly, energy can be transferred directly by the yogi's thought or will.

Surprisingly, this occultic transmission of power from the leader to the disciple, so popular in non-Christian religions, is being emulated and embraced by many in the Christian community.

Another technique employed by Brownsville leaders to impart the spirit is the repetition of words. This causes a spirit to be passed from those who have it to those who want it. This is a Hindu technique called “mantra.” According to Harper's Dictionary of Hinduism, “The mantra is a formula comprising words and sounds which possess magical or divine power.” A person simply repeats a word or phrase over and over to bring about a desired spiritual effect. This is very common in eastern religions and the New Age.

Shockingly, Steve Hill describes his salvation in terms of mantra. In his testimony, Hill claims that during a low-point in his life, he was visited by a Lutheran minister. The minister never presented the Gospel, but merely told Hill, then an atheist, that he must repeatedly say the name “Jesus” in order to be delivered from his degenerate lifestyle. Hill complied.

The sound of that name again and again seemed to bring hope from nowhere. The confusion and fear faded slowly as I looked to the ceiling and began to utter, `Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!' A peace, a warmth such as I never felt before, flooded my body. This power rushed in like a river and took command of everything. I kept crying out His name, louder and louder: `Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!' The more I said it, the greater was my deliverance.”

In short, atheist Hill uttered “Jesus” repeatedly and consequently was overcome by a spiritual power. What is the problem here? The experience Hill described is not Christian salvation. This is clear for several reasons. First, Hill's testimony does not correspond with biblical testimony of how one must be saved. The Bible claims that one is saved by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross. However, Hill was “saved” through the repetition of a name. Which “Jesus” was the Lutheran minister advocating? Certainly not the Jesus of the Bible because He is not conjured through the repetition of a word, but received through believing the Gospel. Second, by Hill's own admission, the Gospel was never presented. The Lutheran minister never presented evidence for the existence of God, nor did he even mention the work of Christ on the cross. The preacher only instructed Hill to speak Jesus' name, and this would bring about a changed life. There was nothing mentioned about putting faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God. In fact, when this took place, Hill did not even believe in God! Third, Hill's experience, the use of a mantra, is widespread throughout Hinduism, occultism, and the New Age. Yet, this is exactly how Hill describes his conversion. He repeated words and was overcome by power. Unless salvation can occur apart from believing the true Gospel and apart from the true Jesus Christ, Steve Hill was not saved at that moment, because, according to his own testimony, he was not presented with the Gospel nor was he presented with the facts about the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Hill is using the mantra technique, repeating “More, Lord!,” and “Fire! Fire! Fire!,” to pass on the spirit at Brownsville. For instance, Brownsville's altar call prayer team is instructed to impart the spirit only through touch and repetition of words. Dr. Herb Babcock, former prayer team member recounts,

While on the prayer team, we were instructed to NOT pray in Jesus' name. We were told to NOT pray for the needs of people. The only thing we were to do was touch people on their forehead and say, `More, Lord!' and keep repeating that until there was an `impartation' of the spirit being promoted in these meetings. If the person did not respond in a reasonable time, move on to someone else. Any deviation from the limited procedure would result in being removed from the prayer team, which did happen to a few individuals.”

Dr. Babcock separated from Brownsville Assembly of God over this issue. To forbid prayer in the name of Jesus is anti-Christian, as is the practice of imparting spirits through occultic techniques.

Additionally, any word will suffice as a mantra--even “Christian” words such as “Jesus” or “Lord.” One occultist, Michael Balarama of the Bhaktivedanta Meditation Society, advises the use of a number of mantras, saying, “You can choose one that appeals to you. They are all effective. The Vedas say there is no need of understanding the language of the mantra, nor is there any need of mental speculation, nor intellectual adjustment.” Remarkably, two of the mantras recommended by Balarama are, “Lord Jesus have mercy upon us,” and “Hail Mary mother of grace, blessed is thy name and the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.” Thus, in order to conjure the magical effect of the mantra, even “Christian” words such as “More, Lord!,” “Jesus, Jesus, Jesus!” will work. This is confirmed by the fact that even occultists and pantheists use the name of Jesus as mantras. Hence, even if the name “Jesus” is used as a mantra, that does not make it “Christian.” Any use of a mantra is occultic. And by repeating the words “More, Lord!,” or “Fire!,” with the intent of imparting power, Steve Hill has unequivocally left the Christian Faith and is practicing occultism.

Another technique used to pass on the spirit of Brownsville is to lead the congregation to turn off their minds and succumb to an altered state of hypnotic meditation. The Brownsville requiem is “Turn off your mind and let the Spirit do what He pleases!” Rodney Howard-Browne instructs his audience to “tune out,” saying, “You can't understand what God is doing in these meetings with an analytical mind. The only way you're going to understand what God is doing is with your hearts.” In other words, “Don't think. Turn your mind off and let God take control!”

Thus, Brownsville instructs a seeker to clear the mind in order to conjure the spirit. The mind is the enemy of true spirituality. Steve Hill instructs the crowd at Brownsville, “Now, let yourselves go. Don't even think about what you are doing. Forget about those around you and what they are doing. Release your mind. Release your spirit and let the mighty river of the Holy Ghost take you wherever He wants you to go.” Notice the similarity of Hill's command to the commands of several New Age/Hindu teachers:

Withdraw your mind from all created things (thinking about no thing). Such withdrawal of the mind is not the same as simply becoming unconscious, because there is a new focus of awareness . . . your mind will eventually become naturally quiet and still.

You must achieve elimination of the mind, which is the arch obstacle in the spiritual path.

Do not listen to your mind [but] . . . to my voice. . . . Give [your minds] to me . . . but it must be a complete handing over; no reservations; the mind is the source of delusion.

In contrast, Christianity encourages thinking. The God of the Bible demands His followers to “love the LORD your God with all your mind” (Matt. 22:37). God, the ultimate rational Being, desires His people to be rational beings. To turn off the mind for even a moment or to fail to use it to the best of one's ability at all times is disobedience to God. The mind is an essential ingredient of the Christian life. The mind is the main battleground of spiritual warfare, and Christians grow in Christ-likeness primarily through discipling the mind. The Apostle Paul commands the church to be “transformed by the renewing of your mind” (Rom. 12:1-2). Truly, without our minds we cannot discern truth from error. That is precisely why so much error--a false Jesus, a false spirit, and a false Gospel--is being accepted by revival attendees. Brownsville says “Out with the mind!” but Christianity says, “Transform your mind!”

The spirit causes un-Christlike behavior. The spirit imparted at Brownsville causes behavior such as shaking, roaring, barking, and paralysis. In an article about the current revival phenomenon, Daina Doucet claims the manifestation is “a transferable anointing. In its most visible form it overcomes worshippers with outbreaks of laughter, weeping, groaning, shaking, falling, drunkenness, and most recently, even sounds and behaviors described as a `cross between a jungle and a farmyard.'” Contrast this behavior to the behavior produced by the Holy Spirit in a believer. The Holy Spirit will produce the “fruit” described in Galatians 5:22-23: “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” The Holy Spirit will also empower believers to employ spiritual gifts such as giving, mercy, teaching, service, and evangelism in order to minister to those in need. The Holy Spirit leads a believer to be others-centered, while the spirit imparted at Brownsville leads the seeker to be self-centered. In other words, the Holy Spirit leads believers to minister to the needs of others, while the spirit of Brownsville leads believers to seek increasingly intense and bizarre experiences for themselves. There is a dire contrast between true Christian spirituality and the out-of-control behavior of Brownsville.

This section can be summed up as follows: the leaders of Brownsville are using techniques from non-Christian religions to invoke and impart spirits to revival attendees. Whether by touch, mantra, or hypnotic meditation, Brownsville leaders are unquestionably practicing occultism, and, in their ignorance, giving the practices Christian names (i.e., mantra = “persistent prayer”; emptying the mind = “letting God take over”; invoked spirit = “Holy Spirit”). To be sure, revival leaders are invoking a power that yields desired results--lives are changed. Yet, since the doctrine is false, the power imparting the results cannot be the Holy Spirit, but could ultimately be Satan himself, who would gladly give someone a mystical experience and a changed life in order to keep one away from truth. Notice the resemblance between occultic practice and the revival:

KUNDALINI YOGA AND THE BROWNSVILLE REVIVAL
KUNDALINI BROWNSVILLE
IDENTICAL MANIFESTATION

“Kriyas”
Shaking, trembling, roaring, barking, weeping, laughing, paralysis, heat.

“manifestation”
Shaking, trembling, roaring, barking, weeping, laughing, paralysis, feelings of heat or coldness.

IDENTICAL TECHNIQUES

“Shaktipat”
Power transferred through touch, mantra, meditation.

“Impartation”
“Spirit” transferred through touch, repetitive prayer, emptying the mind.

IDENTICAL INSTRUMENTS

“Guru”
Transferred by a guru who is “on fire” (i.e., he has had someone impart the power to him.).

“Anointed one”
Transferred by minister who has also been “touched” and received this “spirit” from someone else.

IDENTICAL RESULTS

“Transformation”
Surrendering to the power; inner peace; feelings of love; closeness to the deity; purification from doing evil; changed life.

“A Changed Life”
Surrendering to the “spirit”; peace; feelings of love; cleansed; renewed commitment and intimacy with God; changed life



The False Gospel of Brownsville
The Brownsville Revival is fueled by the preaching of a faith-plus-works gospel. Ultimately, the factor which determines one's standing before God is how one lives instead of one's faith in Christ. In order to have eternal life, Brownsville claims one must 1) turn from sins, repent, clean up one's life, 2) make a public confession of faith, 3) live a holy life from that day forward, and 4) be baptized in water to cleanse one's sins. The following is an analysis of the “good news” preached by Brownsville Assembly of God.

To Be Saved, Clean Up Your Life. The Gospel according to Brownsville claims a person must give up all sin in his life to be saved. Then and only then will Jesus consider saving that person. Steve Hill lays out many conditions for salvation, but his basic message is this: “God wants to set you free but you have to do your part.” And your part is to clean up your life. For instance, in his sermon, “The Silence of God,” Hill states, “There is also a pardon for you, but only after you confess, repent, and submit your life to Him.” In another sermon, “The Rebel's Reward,” Hill further preaches his clean-up-your-life-Gospel as he says, “If you don't repent of your rebellion, if you fail to obey God and get right with Him, then your wicked heart won't be cleansed.” Furthermore, in his sermon, “The Violence of Revival,” Hill adds, “Since Jesus did His part, you must wage violent warfare against sin. If you want Jesus Christ to touch you and forgive you today, then you had better get violent about it. Get up and shake the devil off your lap.” Pastor John Kilpatrick also delineates similar life-cleansing requirements for salvation, “Even harlots, thieves, backsliders, and little children can release Heaven's incredible power by repenting, obeying, and submitting to God.” Thus, according to Brownsville, one must do his part by confessing, repenting, submitting, obeying, shaking the devil off, and getting violent about sin. Only then will Jesus “do His part” and save the person.

To Be Saved, Make a Public Confession of Faith. Brownsville preaches that salvation is genuine only if there is a public confession of faith. Hill claims that one of the many steps to salvation is “Confess Him publicly as our Lord and Savior.” In his sermon “Counterfeit Conversion,” Steve Hill states this very plainly: “I believe people need to come to Jesus Christ the same way he died for them on the cross--publicly, boldly, and in front of everybody. It has to be real. Anything less is going to be counterfeit.” Thus, if one does not make a bold, public confession of faith when he cleans up his life, the conversion is counterfeit.

To Be Saved, Live a Holy Life Until the End. Not only must one turn from all sin and respond publicly to be saved, the person must live a sinless life until he dies if he wants to go to heaven. In fact, Brownsville maintains that if a person who claims to be a Christian has any sin in his life, he cannot be a real Christian. In a recent sermon on the steps of the Governor's Mansion in Montgomery, Alabama, Steve Hill yelled, “If there is sin in your life and you are calling yourself a Christian, change your name! You are a heathen--at best a backslider!” Consequently, the presence of sin means the absence of salvation. Brownsville evangelist Dick Reuben illustrates, “We [at Brownsville] don't differentiate between those that have never received Jesus and those who are backslidden, because, you see, there's no difference between a backslider and one who's never known Jesus. They're both sinners on the way to hell. If you don't think you can backslide and miss heaven, then you didn't read the same book I've read.”

Kilpatrick teaches the same thing: “I'm not so sure that everyone who is in the Body of Christ will be in the Bride of Christ!” In fact, Kilpatrick claims that, “The Lord said to me when I was in prayer, `Not everyone who is in My Body will be in My Bride.'” Thus, the factor that determines whether or not one goes to heaven is how one behaves, not one's trust in Jesus. According to Brownsville, there are those who have believed the Gospel that will never see heaven because they misbehave and allow sin into their life. Heaven is only for those with clean lives. Sinful behavior separates one from God forever. This is entirely different than the God of the Bible who declares that “neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom. 8:38-39). Eternal life is a free gift, and it is exactly that--eternal. We did not work to receive eternal life, and we can do nothing to lose it.

To Be Saved, Be Baptized For the Forgiveness of Sins. Steve Hill believes that “transformation . . . comes as a result of water baptism.” Remarkably, in the chapter about water baptism in The Pursuit of Revival, Steve Hill clearly declares that cleansing of sin comes through water baptism. Hill claims, “When an individual encounters the living God, like Paul did on the road to Damascus, he or she is changed in no small way. And the lives of those around him are affected as well, especially by the cleansing of sin that comes through baptism.” Thus, Brownsville teaches that unless one is baptized, one cannot be cleansed of sin. The Bible, though, declares that the cleansing of sin comes from the shed blood of Jesus Christ (Matt. 26:28; 1 Jn. 1:7).

A Brief Response to the Brownsville Gospel
If the Gospel of Brownsville is true, then salvation by faith alone is false. Brownsville leaders are teaching a works-centered Gospel that is little more than a contract between man and God in which man promises to behave and then God fulfills His promise to save the man. This is very different from the biblical teaching on salvation. The Bible points to the fact that for a person to be saved, he must simply believe, or trust in Jesus. Jesus did the work for salvation on the cross, and we simple trust in Him (John 3:16, 5:24, 6:47, 20:31; 1 John 5:1). Salvation is a free gift (Rev. 22:17), not a contractual obligation.

Must a person fulfill all the Brownsville requirements in order to be saved? Absolutely not! In fact, if a person tries to do works in order to beseech the favor of God, “Christ will profit you nothing” (Gal. 5:2). In other words, those who work for salvation do not receive salvation. Eph. 2:8-9 emphatically states, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. Thus, we have no need to “get violent” about our sin in order to be saved, because Jesus “got violent” about sin in order that the world might be saved. He was tortured, crucified, and died on a criminal's cross, thereby providing an atonement for our sin. We must simply trust in Him as the atonement for our sin. Since He dealt with our sin “once-for-all,” we do not “deal” with our sin in order to be saved, whether it be by confession, repentance, obedience, lifestyle, or baptism--we simply trust Jesus. Jesus paid our sin debt on the cross, and to imply that we need to clean up our act or repent of sin in order to be saved is to deny the sufficiency of the atonement for sin that Christ completed on the cross.

The Gospel as taught at Brownsville is a false Gospel, and a false Gospel yields a false salvation. Therefore, even though Brownsville claims that 135,000 souls have been saved, this claim must be categorically rejected on the basis that the 135,000 people have not responded to the true Gospel, the true Spirit, or the true Jesus. They have responded to a false Jesus, a false spirit, and a false Gospel--something that Scripture warns about over and over again (cf. Gal. 1:6-9; 2 Cor. 11:4; Matt. 24:23-24; 2 Pet. 2:1). Tragically, people will spend eternity separated from God because of the revival that is being held night after night in Brownsville, Florida.

Conclusion: Brownsville--Apostasy from the Faith
Many revival supporters claim that Brownsville is the spark that will ignite a great end-times revival. Yet, the Bible does not speak of end-times revival but of a great end-times apostasy of believers. 1 Tim. 4:1 says, “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons.” Furthermore, speaking of the last days, Paul states, “For the time will come when they [believers] will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables” (2 Tim. 4:3-4). The unequivocal testimony of Scripture is that there will be a great apostasy among true believers. Could this revival movement be the end-times apostasy Scripture describes? I believe it very well could be.

The end-times apostasy of believers will occur because of a great satanic deception among believers. What would such a deception look like? It certainly will not be something very obvious. Satan is not going to waltz into the church on Sunday morning and say, “OK everybody! Listen up! I'm Satan and this is the great apostasy, so get in line and follow me!” No, his end times deception will be through a subtle twisting of biblical Christianity, mixing biblical truth with demonic error, true doctrine with false doctrine. So close is this mixture, in fact, that many believe it to be biblical Christianity and fall away from the true Faith. Thus, many believers are deceived and lead away from the Faith through false doctrine--a subtly different Jesus, different spirit, and different gospel. Consequently, because of Satan's disguise as an “angel of light” and his ministers' disguise as “ministers of righteousness” (2 Cor. 11:14-15) everything they do looks and sounds very Christian. In other words, the great apostasy from the Faith will likely be orchestrated by ministers who, on the surface, appear righteous and godly. Their teaching will be so close to true biblical Christianity that many will follow the false “angel of light” and the false “ministers of righteousness” away from the true Jesus, the true Spirit and the true Gospel.

This type of deception is what is occurring in Brownsville. As I have established above, another Jesus, a different spirit, and a different gospel than orthodox Christianity is indeed being preached at Brownsville, and true believers are falling for the lies and near-truths that seem so close to Christian truth. Yet, the difference is subtle enough to deceive many believers. As Charles Colson has pointed out, “I have spoken of frontal assaults and the sneak attacks. There is something worse. . . . The enemy is in our midst. He has so infiltrated our camp that many simply no longer can tell an enemy from a friend, truth from heresy.” [45] So, beware. True Christianity is under attack. Stand firm in sound doctrine. Test all things to see if they are biblical (1 Thess. 5:21), and if not, defend the Faith (Jude 3). Follow Peter's decree and “sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you” (1 Pt. 3:15). You could very well be the instrument Christ uses to snatch deceived believers from the gates of death (James 5:19-20).

In this article, I have attempted to show how the Brownsville revival is fueled by false doctrine. If the essential doctrine is false, then the whole movement is necessarily false. God does not work through a false Jesus, a false spirit, and a false Gospel--if He did, He wouldn't have warned us about the dangers of false christs and false gospels again and again. However, there is a sense in which God is working in Brownsville. His work can be seen in the testimonies of the many Brownsville members who have left the church because of its false doctrine--a group which is steadily growing in number.

It has been said that, “Truth is so obscure in these times, and falsehood so established, that, unless we love the truth, we cannot know it.” And love the truth we must--or else. This new counterfeit form of Christianity, complete with its counterfeit Prince of Peace, is poised at the door, knocking. And many are welcoming him with open arms.

Source (http://www.ses.edu/journal/issue2_1/2_1spencer.htm)

[1PeaceMaker]

Just remember this Amiel;

The BEST gift is love. Give that gift to others every day. I dn't know enough else about you to rebuke, so I won't. However I do ask that you visit my thread, Spiritual Law, in the Exclusivly Christian forum. Couple this with knowing that God covers you with his righteousness when you have faith in Him.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I have gotten better fellowship with people I know who are Masonic Officers.

Masonic Christians have made a treaty with the pagan people who worship other god's, namely the Hindus, the Moslems, the Buddhists and those of all other false religions.

This explains Aimiels acceptance from wickwoman, Chileice, Dave Miller, and other pagans.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by 1PeaceMaker

Just remember this Amiel;

The BEST gift is love. Give that gift to others every day. I dn't know enough else about you to rebuke, so I won't. However I do ask that you visit my thread, Spiritual Law, in the Exclusivly Christian forum. Couple this with knowing that God covers you with his righteousness when you have faith in Him.


This thread has clearly proved, through Aimiel's own words, that he is a false prophet, and is filled with doctrines of demons. He is an enemy of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and a friend of devils.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Sozo

This explains Aimiels acceptance from wickwoman, Chileice, Dave Miller, and other pagans. No, it merely speaks to the fact that those people are closer and more familiar with The Spirit of The Lord than are self-proclaimed 'truthsmackers' who are nothing more than pharisees, wolves in sheep's clothing, SheepDog.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

No, it merely speaks to the fact that those people are closer and more familiar with The Spirit of The Lord

And there you have it, folks! Aimiel claims that wickwoman, Dave Miller, and other pagans are in tune with the Spirit of the Lord.

If this is not enough evidence, I can give you much more!

You want more proof that you are an evil worker, Aimiel? You have given us plenty of material.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Aimiel

No, it merely speaks to the fact that those people are closer and more familiar with The Spirit of The Lord :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Sozo

...Dave Miller, [is] in tune with the Spirit of the Lord.



:vomit: :vomit: :vomit:

A spirit no doubt, but not The Spirit.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Nineveh

:vomit: :vomit: :vomit:

A spirit no doubt, but not The Spirit. Like I said in the other thread, they all get their information from the same spirit.

[Zakath]

Sozo,

After reading what you've posted about Kim Clements, I don't see a whole lot of difference between what he or President Bush's good friend Pat Robertson spout...

What's your opinion of Mr. Robertson as a "prophet"?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Zakath

Sozo,

After reading what you've posted about Kim Clements, I don't see a whole lot of difference between what he or President Bush's good friend Pat Robertson spout...

What's your opinion of Mr. Robertson as a "prophet"? About the same as Kim Clement.

[Crow]

Originally posted by Zakath

Sozo,

After reading what you've posted about Kim Clements, I don't see a whole lot of difference between what he or President Bush's good friend Pat Robertson spout...

What's your opinion of Mr. Robertson as a "prophet"?

I put him up there with the "Psychic Friends."

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo

About the same as Kim Clement. Thanks for the clarification. It's sometimes hard to tell such fellows apart without a scorecard. :thumb:

So many "prophets", so little time... :chuckle:

[Sozo]

Once a person has invested blood, sweat, tears and money into religious deception, he may be too embarrassed or too stubborn to admit he has been taken. Our hearts are where our treasure has gone. Our vested interest helps us keep the blinders on. We often only "see" what we want to see. The Bible presents a complex picture in regard to deception and assures us that God
holds both the deceiver and the deceived accountable.

In the first chapter of the book of Zephaniah, the Lord charges and convicts both the people and the corrupt leaders they followed. Lamentations 2:14 indicates the same:

"Your prophets have seen for you false and deceptive visions; They have not uncovered your iniquity, to bring back your captives, but have envisioned for you false prophecies and delusions."

It seems that for many complex reasons, one of which is the spurious idea of ongoing revelation (along with a diminished view of the sufficiency of the Bible), many people are predisposed to credulity. That is, they are gullible and likely ready to believe anything even on very slight evidence or sometimes with no evidence at all. Testimonials and dramatic stories sell.


(Fisher, "The Quarterly Journal," Vol. 20, No. 3).

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Were you a prophet, or if you had anything at all to do with The Spirit of The Lord, you'd recognize the anointing of prophecy that is on Kim's words.

:nono:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Those who walk after The Spirit of The Lord are called The Sons of God. The innocent are those who are washed in The Blood of The Lamb, and God knows who they are, and He knows who might say they are, but don't even know Him. The prophecy hasn't been proven false. The Prophet Kim Clement is accurate, and makes many look like the liars that they are. I have yet to hear him make a prophecy that isn't from The Spirit of The Lord. There are a very small number, indeed, that I could say that about. Catherine Brown is another, in Scotland, and Ching Co, in China, is another. I know of only a few more that even come close to Kim's anointing and ministry.

:kookoo:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I don't see Kim Clement as a charlatan, and know where he walks, which couldn't begin to be comprehended by someone who isn't a Christian. He is walking in The Will of The Lord for his life, and there are many prophets who consider him to be their prophet. He speaks, and God confirms what he speaks. :thumb:



:down:

[Granite]

"Once a person has invested blood, sweat, tears and money into religious deception, he may be too embarrassed or too stubborn
to admit he has been taken."

I can't agree more.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Sozo

And there you have it, folks! Aimiel claims that wickwoman, Dave Miller, and other pagans are in tune with the Spirit of the Lord. I stand by it. The Lord is That Spirit, and where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is liberty. You bring oppression, suppression and depression. I guess that tells us what spirit you are of.

[Crow]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I stand by it. The Lord is That Spirit, and where The Spirit of The Lord is, there is liberty. You bring oppression, suppression and depression. I guess that tells us what spirit you are of.


Aimiel, can one have the Spirit of the Lord and not declare that Christ is the one way to salvation? I know that wickwoman does not believe that Christ is the one savior.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Sozo
Aimiel claims that wickwoman, Dave Miller, and other pagans are in tune with the Spirit of the Lord.

Originally posted by Aimiel

I stand by it.

And down you go!

:devil: :aimiel: :devil:

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Crow

Aimiel, can one have the Spirit of the Lord and not declare that Christ is the one way to salvation? I know that wickwoman does not believe that Christ is the one savior. Can one hold The Truth in unrighteousness? I know that Sozo doesn't do anything that Jesus said. He told us to heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise dead and cast out demons. I don't believe a single one of those has ever been attempted, much less completed by you. He needs to buy a clue. :chuckle:

[Jabez]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Can one hold The Truth in unrighteousness? I know that Sozo doesn't do anything that Jesus said. He told us to heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise dead and cast out demons. I don't believe a single one of those has ever been attempted, much less completed by you. You need to buy a clue. :chuckle:

Who was Jesus talking to when he said that?

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Jabez

Who was Jesus talking to when he said that? Disciples.

[Crow]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Can one hold The Truth in unrighteousness? I know that Sozo doesn't do anything that Jesus said. He told us to heal the sick, cleanse lepers, raise dead and cast out demons. I don't believe a single one of those has ever been attempted, much less completed by you. You need to buy a clue. :chuckle:

Yup. Jesus told the Jews to do that.

[Jabez]

Jewish,Gentle didnt matter?

[the Sibbie]

Since 1995, Kim has traveled to Detroit, Michigan on a monthly basis to help establish The Warriors of the New Millennium for those who have been wounded by present day religion and its trappings. Cite (http://www.kimclement.com/aboutkim.htm)
I wonder what he means by "present day religion"

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Crow

Yup. Jesus told the Jews to do that. Sorry to hear that you're not a Jew. Did you know that no one else will be allowed into Heaven but Jews? I'm Jewish because my adopted Father is Jewish, as is my Brother, Jesus.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by the Sibbie

I wonder what he means by "present day religion" He has his doctrine on his website: CLICK HERE. (http://www.kimclement.com/doctrine/doctrinal_belief.htm)

[Crow]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Sorry to hear that you're not a Jew. Did you know that no one else will be allowed into Heaven but Jews? I'm Jewish because my adopted Father is Jewish, as is my Brother, Jesus.

Nope, I'm a gentile. A Christian gentile. And do you think God the Father is a Jew?

[Aimiel]

If you're 'grafted' into The True Vine, you have become a Jew, because He is. God doesn't have any 'grandchildren.' We become sons by His Grace, through faith in Jesus.

[Crow]

Originally posted by Aimiel

If you're 'grafted' into The True Vine, you have become a Jew, because He is. God doesn't have any 'grandchildren.' We become sons by His Grace, through faith in Jesus.

Aimiel, is God the Father a Jew?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Crow

Aimiel, is God the Father a Jew? Looks like Aimiel has decided to take a nap. Perhaps that is where God speaks to him... through his dreams.

I wonder what God will tell Aimiel about His nationality... :think:

[logos_x]

Israel killed prophets.
Thought they were false.
Even killed Jesus of Nazareth.

People have always tried to kill what they can't understand.

Guess it's still as true now as then.



I don't agree with Amiel all of the time...but this thread is character assassination. No more than that, and no less.

I stand beside Amiel here.

Nobody is beyond criticism. Shall we tear apart Sozo, too? Or Hank Hanegraff, or Jeremy Spencer? Hypocrites! Blind Guides!

Enough of that...Sozo doesn't agree with Amiel.
Big fat hairy deal!

[godrulz]

I would be surprised if Aimiel would endorse wickwoman's ideas if he knew what they were.

Some negate the possibility of the Spirit's work in charismatic-type circles. Others are open to the Spirit, but do not show discernment of false teachings and the flesh.

Wick clearly is outside biblical Christianity.

Some statements about Christ's Deity from the revival are poorly worded, but this does not mean they deny the Deity of Christ. He did not lay aside His Deity (notice how they recognize His Deity in His preexistence), but Deity took on humanity (the Divine Word became flesh). He did not exercise His omni. qualities while on earth. This does not mean He ceased to be Deity (Phil. 2:5-11; Col. 2:). So I think the revivalists were not being technical theologians, but careless in their articulations of the kenosis/incarnation. If any of them were Assemblies of God (Brownsville), they would lose their credentials if they really denied the Deity of Christ. I am not commenting on their other beliefs or practices. We should judge based on their overall teaching, not a poorly worded attempt to describe the God-Man and His ministry.

[Lighthouse]

Steve-
Aimiel has said that wickwoman is in tune with the Sprit of the Lord. And though I would like to consider Aimiel my friend, I do not agree with him an that subject...and the fact that he believes wickwoman to be in tune with the Sprit of the Lord, when she [wickwoman] denies that Jesus is the only way to God, shows me that Aimiel is not in tune with the Spirit of the Lord, even though he believes he is. And if he still believes the heretics on TBN after their prophcies have not come true: i.e., the cure for AIDS that was supposed to come in 2002, then that is furhter evidence he is not in tune with the Spirit of the living God.

Aimiel-
Please, take a look at what you believe, and who you trust. I used to be in the same boat as you. But when faced with the truth, I could not deny God for the sake of those I trusted, because I trusted Him more. Put your faith in God, not in men. Especially not the faithless. Please.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by lighthouse


Aimiel has said that wickwoman is in tune with the Sprit of the Lord.

Actually, he said that wickwoman was more in tune with the Spirit of the Lord than Sozo was.

I don't agree with that. But, I had to correct your assumption of what he said.

[Lighthouse]

For ner to be more in tune with the Spirit of God, she would have to be in tune with the Spirit. Even if Sozo wasn't.

[ebenz47037]

Well, Aimiel doesn't believe that Sozo's in tune with the Spirit. I know that there have been others who questioned that as well. I like Sozo and have no problem with what he believes. I don't agree with everything. But, there's no way we'll know who's right until Christ returns. I base my beliefs strictly on the Bible. No one's taught me to believe anything that I do. I see pieces of truth in both Sozo's and Aimiel's beliefs.

[Crow]

Originally posted by logos_x

Israel killed prophets.
Thought they were false.
Even killed Jesus of Nazareth.

People have always tried to kill what they can't understand.

Guess it's still as true now as then.



I don't agree with Amiel all of the time...but this thread is character assassination. No more than that, and no less.

I stand beside Amiel here.

Nobody is beyond criticism. Shall we tear apart Sozo, too? Or Hank Hanegraff, or Jeremy Spencer? Hypocrites! Blind Guides!

Enough of that...Sozo doesn't agree with Amiel.
Big fat hairy deal!

logos_x--

Since you weren't here and you've missed the prior episodes, let me bring you up to date.

This is a recurring saga.

Aimiel and Sozo believe differently on some points but not all. And they both are very passionate in the love for Christ and about their beliefs, so tempers flare at times.

I've also seen them on the same team before arguing just as passionately against some of the more popular heresies that appear on this message board.

On most issues, my beliefs are a lot closer to Sozo's than Aimiel's. I don't believe that a person who professes that Christ is not the one way is in tune with the Spirit. I do not believe that God the Father is a Jew or has any nationality of any kind. And while Christ was a Jew in His flesh when He was on the earth, He has existed from the beginning, and Jews have not. What God the Father, Son, and Spirit are transcends any race or nationality.

I appreciate Aimiel's passion for the Lord, and I've seen him tear into people. I appreciate Sozo's passion for the Lord, and I've seen him really tear into people. And people with great passion get into it occasionally. Paul called Peter a hypocrite to his face.

I don't ascribe to the WoF because I've seen too many of their "prophets" prophesize stuff that was out and out wrong. I particularly remember the Y2K debacle and some of the advice and predictions that a good number of them handed out. :shocked:

And you know what?--I don't think that God is going to have belief in today's prophesy or disbelief in the same as a litmus test for the afterlife. As men and women, we argue about all sorts of stuff. We want to know what is right. We want to align ourselves with what is right. We want others to know what is right and to align themselves with what is right. And we don't all think the same thing is right, so there's going to be some heat and occasionally some smoke and a little fire.

Why don't I believe that Kim Clement is a prophet? Because if he were, everything he said God showed him would be true, wouldn't it? Sozo used part of this in his original post that started the thread, and this prophesy is specific enough to examine for veracity or lack thereof.


God wants us to go to the back streets. He wants to have a cure for AIDS. He said it’s going to be by the year 2002, there’s going to be a cure for AIDS.

Well, somebody said "Well, those homosexuals deserve to have AIDS." No they don’t. You deserve to die, but Jesus died for you 2000 years ago. I don’t think anybody deserves to die. There’s gonna be a cure and there’s gonna be a Christian that is a scientist that’s gonna come across a discovery.

An announcement was just made the other day by Sharon Stone after I made the announcement nationally that there was going to be a cure for AIDS in the year 2002. She said "In my lifetime [unintelligible] and the doctors, we don’t see a cure for AIDS." That’s called a prognosis. It’s called a prognostication. The prophets hate any prognosis that defies what God has given them to say. (Kim Clement, Praise the Lord, 12/26/2000)


(I think Sozo's right about Kim Clement. :chuckle: )

[Sozo]

Originally posted by logos_x


I don't agree with Amiel all of the time...but this thread is character assassination. No more than that, and no less.

No... no... no... :nono:

I am not assassinating Aimiel's character :(

I am just revealing how Aimiel's character commited suicide.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Crow

Aimiel, is God the Father a Jew? I believe that He is. I also believe that He is every nationality, and that He is All Male and All Female. I also believe that evidence of His Spirit, which we call fruit, is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, and is far better demonstrated by many who don't agree with many people's 'interpretation' of The Word of God, but demonstrate that parable that Jesus used to show who true believers were: those who do The Will of His Father. Many who only 'profess' to be Christians, who don't do His Will, might find themselves hearing, "Depart from Me, I never knew you," when they say to Him, "Lord, Lord..." They'll be surprised to learn that their church attendance, memorizing of scriptures and earning the favor of their favorite pastor, who feeds their itching ears, won't do them any good, because of their unforgiveness, hatred and constant rejection of The Spirit of The Lord. This religious spirit has a large stronghold in place, here at TOL, and is one of the greatest enemies of The Lord, and is very hard to 'kick against.'

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I believe that He is. :blabla:

What a crybaby :baby:

You seriously think that anyone here, with a hint of bible knowledge, takes you seriously?

You ARE living in a dream world, and you need to WAKE-UP and smell the coffee of delusion that you wallow in. YOUR pride is keeping you captured by the demonic spirit that haunts your mind. Several people who care about you at TOL would love to see you shed your superstitious christian mysticism, and be of sound mind, but YOU refuse.

Be that as it may, if you keep shooting of your mouth with foolish comments about who you think you are and your bizarre revelations, then we have no choice, but to let others know, that we do not place you in the body of Christ. It is imperitive, that those who are lost do not associate Christ with your voodoo!

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Sozo

Be that as it may, if you keep shooting of your mouth with foolish comments about who you think you are and your bizarre revelations, then we have no choice, but to let others know, that we do not place you in the body of Christ. What do you mean 'we?' Do you have a demon spirit that you are in such agreement with, that you've begun to call yourself we, Gollum? Are you now my judge? You don't recognize what spirit controlls you. You don't have a clue.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Sozo

You seriously think that anyone here, with a hint of bible knowledge, takes you seriously?Do you seriously think that anyone considers you to have even a 'hint' of Bible knowledge? :nono:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

What do you mean 'we?' Do you have a demon spirit that you are in such agreement with, that you've begun to call yourself we, Gollum? Are you now my judge? You don't recognize what spirit controlls you. You don't have a clue. This is simply more evidence of your self-delusion and spirit of pride. If you think that I am alone in my criticism of your bizarre antics, your have clearly lost your mind and are blind.

Suit yourself.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Do you seriously think that anyone considers you to have even a 'hint' of Bible knowledge? :nono: Take a poll... monkey boy!

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Sozo

If you think that I am alone in my criticism...That's all you've done, criticize me. You have nothing on me, and certainly couldn't convince me that The Holy Spirit doesn't live within me, much less that I'm not accepted in The Body of Christ. Have you ever considered therapy?

[Aimiel]

I forgot, your pride won't let you accept the fact that there is such a thing as mental illness. Well, have you considered deliverance?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

That's all you've done, criticize me. You have nothing on me, and certainly couldn't convince me that The Holy Spirit doesn't live within me, much less that I'm not accepted in The Body of Christ. Have you ever considered therapy? Aimiel... The first few posts in this thread are enough evidence for anyone to prove that you are outside of Christ, and nothing more than a witch doctor, at best.

Your attempts to cover up or hide the truth about yourself through childlike spamming will not remove the truth. You need to repent.

[Nineveh]

godrulz,

"Wick clearly is outside biblical Christianity."

Didn't you know? She (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=620034#post620034) is "ruled" by Uranus.


:chuckle:

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Sozo

You need to repent. Of what, specifically? Being Spirit-filled, unlike yourself? I'm sorry, but someone with experience will never bow to someone with 'knowledge,' especially when that knowledge is in error.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Nineveh

godrulz,

"Wick clearly is outside biblical Christianity."

Didn't you know? She (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=620034#post620034) is "ruled" by Uranus.And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the 'children of the kingdom' shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Nineveh]

Aimiel,
I'm not really sure what you are saying there, but surely you don't think ww is repentant. I've seen you stand up on many occations for good. I would hate to see you sit down on that one.

May I ask, out of curiosity....

Why would you continue to defend "prophets" who are exposed as charlatans by their own lips? How do you feel about the mormon "prophets"?

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Nineveh

I'm not really sure what you are saying there, but surely you don't think ww is repentant.No, and if I did, I would say so. I do, however, see her doing more of The Will of The Father than self-righteous hypocrites such as Sozo, who don't demonstrate one of The Fruit of The Spirit of The Lord. Jesus taught us that children of The Father were those who did His Will, not those who merely professed His Presence.Why would you continue to defend "prophets" who are exposed as charlatans by their own lips?I don't consider someone a charlatan because they err, just like I don't consider someone as lost, because they have errors in their theology. We know people by their fruit. How do you feel about the mormon "prophets"? I don't agree with Mormon Theology, but consider it to be a false religion, started by a demon, in exactly the same way that the Muslim religion was started. Mohammed recognized this to be the work of a devil, but his wife convinced him that it was an angel, or so the story goes.

[philosophizer]

Originally posted by Aimiel
No, and if I did, I would say so. I do, however, see her doing more of The Will of The Father than self-righteous hypocrites such as Sozo, who don't demonstrate one of The Fruit of The Spirit of The Lord. Jesus taught us that children of The Father were those who did His Will, not those who merely professed His Presence.
Jesus taught us that He is the only way to the Father. He taught us that doing the Father's Will means loving God and loving your neighbor. Denying things that Jesus claims, namely that He is the only way to the Father, is not loving God.

The people you've mentioned who are not Christians do not have the Spirit in them. Doesn't matter if they're "nice." The Spirit lives in believers, which they are not. Refusing to concede this, however mad you are at Sozo, looks like mere stubbornness.


I don't consider someone a charlatan because they err, just like I don't consider someone as lost, because they have errors in their theology. We know people by their fruit.
I'm not attacking you, Aimiel. I enjoy many of your contributions here. But I want to ask you a simple question. Has Kim Clement ever made a prophetic statement that did not come to pass?

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Aimiel

No, and if I did, I would say so. I do, however, see her doing more of The Will of The Father than self-righteous hypocrites such as Sozo, who don't demonstrate one of The Fruit of The Spirit of The Lord. Jesus taught us that children of The Father were those who did His Will, not those who merely professed His Presence.

ooooh Aimiel.....

ww has twisted God's Word to agree with paganism time and again. The Truth is not in her. She preaches paganism, not Godliness. What have you witnessed from her that comes from anywhere but the pit of hell? She herself gives witness as to what "rules" her, let's not try to make it into something it isn't.

I don't consider someone a charlatan because they err, just like I don't consider someone as lost, because they have errors in their theology.

Let's look at this a moment.

Which of God's prophets got things wrong as recorded in the Bible? The test is whether those things prophesied come to be or not. If you aren't willing to test them by this measure, what measure do you use?

We know people by their fruit.

Then surely your view of ww is not what you stated in your first paragraph.

I don't agree with Mormon Theology, but consider it to be a false religion, started by a demon, in exactly the same way that the Muslim religion was started. Mohammed recognized this to be the work of a devil, but his wife convinced him that it was an angel, or so the story goes.

By what do you judge mormonism to be in error or "false"?

I agree with your above paragraph, but shouldn't we use the same measure for other "prophets"? Personally, when I found out the mormon "prophet" got things wrong repeatedly, I *knew* he wasn't from God, nor the religion he presides over. What would one of these "prophets" you witness to have do to make him no longer Godly in your sight?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I'm sorry, but someone with experience will never bow to someone with 'knowledge' Well, that says it all! You have just solidified the absolute fact that you have never been saved.

Thanks for the proof.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by philosophizer

I'm not attacking you, Aimiel. I enjoy many of your contributions here.

Same goes double for me :)

[godrulz]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

Well, Aimiel doesn't believe that Sozo's in tune with the Spirit. I know that there have been others who questioned that as well. I like Sozo and have no problem with what he believes. I don't agree with everything. But, there's no way we'll know who's right until Christ returns. I base my beliefs strictly on the Bible. No one's taught me to believe anything that I do. I see pieces of truth in both Sozo's and Aimiel's beliefs.

Aimiel and sozo both affirm historic Christianity and love Jesus. Wickwoman denies biblical, historical, orthodox Christianity. The Spirit leads us into all truth and points to Jesus. In this sense, sozo and Aimiel have the Spirit (=child of God) and are being led by the Spirit.

All of us may lack discernment on men, beliefs, ministries, practices, etc., but that is not the same as denying the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Believers are to deal with heresy in their ranks. We are not to consider unbelievers as if they are 'spiritual',

I think Aimiel needs to clarify and expand on his beliefs lest he be misunderstood or wrongly accused.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Aimiel

I believe that He is. I also believe that He is every nationality, and that He is All Male and All Female. I also believe that evidence of His Spirit, which we call fruit, is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance, and is far better demonstrated by many who don't agree with many people's 'interpretation' of The Word of God, but demonstrate that parable that Jesus used to show who true believers were: those who do The Will of His Father. Many who only 'profess' to be Christians, who don't do His Will, might find themselves hearing, "Depart from Me, I never knew you," when they say to Him, "Lord, Lord..." They'll be surprised to learn that their church attendance, memorizing of scriptures and earning the favor of their favorite pastor, who feeds their itching ears, won't do them any good, because of their unforgiveness, hatred and constant rejection of The Spirit of The Lord. This religious spirit has a large stronghold in place, here at TOL, and is one of the greatest enemies of The Lord, and is very hard to 'kick against.'

Some of this is speculative and unorthodox. From eternity past, the Father was not a Jew, nor was He all male/female (you would have to clarify this). God is spirit, and He has revealed Himself with male pronouns. He is not a neuter it. Feminine, nurturing metaphors are used, but this does not make the Father female.

Jesus Christ, the Messiah, was a Jew in the flesh. This does not mean He was a Jew in His preexistence.

Some are very legalistic and certainly exclude people from the kingdom who are true believers. Others appear to be believers, and will actually be left out. God alone knows the heart.

There is a difference between the office of the Old Testament prophet, and the NT prophet (Eph. 4) and the gift of prophecy (I Cor. 12-14). We are to test prophecies since they are subject to the spirit of prophets. False prophecies from certain ministries do not automatically mean that the individual is not a genuine believer. God will expose their false prophecies and rebuke and discipline them. We need to test and discern what is of the Spirit vs flesh.

If we start out with the premise that charismatic gifts are not for today, a witch hunt of the lunatic fringe of the charismatic movement will seem to support this. So, I share sozo's concerns about false prophecy and questionable ministries.

However, I also share Aimiel's openness and belief in the reality of the Spirit's ministry in the church and world today. There are prophets in the Church (not necessarily the high profile guys who say and do fleshly things), and there is a gift of prophecy exercised at the local church level usually (in a worship service...cf. tongues and interpretation= both for the edification of the church as God shares His heart with His people in prophecy).

We need sound doctrine (are gifts for today or not...I believe they are based on exegesis) and then sound practice with discernment and submission to the Spirit and delegated leadership/eldership= accountability to God, the Word, and His Body.

[1PeaceMaker]

Originally posted by Sozo

This thread has clearly proved, through Aimiel's own words, that he is a false prophet, and is filled with doctrines of demons. He is an enemy of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and a friend of devils. Sorry, Sozo. I missed your long explanitory post. I think I posted at the same time as you, and I didn't look back. I feel kinda silly seeing my post below that long one. :doh: :o

[1PeaceMaker]

...And no I haven't read it just yet, but I want to.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Aimiel

That's all you've done, criticize me. You have nothing on me, and certainly couldn't convince me that The Holy Spirit doesn't live within me, much less that I'm not accepted in The Body of Christ. Have you ever considered therapy?

It is easy to become defensive and move into the flesh in our arguments. It is the ultimate ad hominem attack for sozo to negate the precious salvation of those who do not agree with his every idea. This is grievous and unacceptable. Having different views on spiritual gifts or sanctification (in my case) does not make one a Christ-hating reprobate. Even the anti-charismatic Baptists do not write off hundreds of millions of Pentecostals as reprobates. There are actually many people and leaders in their ranks who are Pentecostal by experience. Denominationally, they also work together for the Gospel with Assemblies of God, etc. without agreeing with all their Pentecostal distinctives.

Likewise, I understand it is hard for Aimiel to take the high road when he is personally attacked or the move of God is questioned outright. It is hard to stick with the issues in a mature way, but our love and unity around essential truth must be the foundation for our lack of uniformity on every peripheral belief and practice.

[Sozo]

godrulz...

Did you not read what Aimiel said here...
I'm sorry, but someone with experience will never bow to someone with 'knowledge' What more proof do you need? Aimiel has not "bowed" to the Jesus of the bible, but to a false Jesus based on his own personal experience. Experiential theology is the underlying foundation of ALL cults.

Aimiel is in a cult of Christian mysticism, not in the body of Christ.
This is not rhetoric, but a fundemental truth about false teachers and the doctrine that the hold to.

I find it odd that more people here would blindly accept someone just because they use alot of Christian cliches. I know Mormans, JWs, Unitarians, and others who can talk the talk, just like Aimiel, but they are still a cult.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Of what, specifically? Being Spirit-filled, unlike yourself? I'm sorry, but someone with experience will never bow to someone with 'knowledge,' especially when that knowledge is in error.

Sozo never repents for his slander/libel and giving offense. I would let the Spirit convict you of what you need to repent of or a mature believer or leader who comes in humility with the Word of God. We all need to learn to speak the truth in wisdom, love, and humility. This does not mean that we cannot be bold with His authority.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

Well, that says it all! You have just solidified the absolute fact that you have never been saved.

Thanks for the proof.

This is only proof that he is not thinking correctly and being very careless in his words. Press him further as to what he really believes. Surely we all agree that you cannot put experience above the Word or true knowledge. Perhaps he means that genuine experience based on truth trumps pseudo-'knowledge'/gnosis.

God alone knows all of his beliefs and relationship with Him. The day Aimiel renounces Christianity and the Deity of Christ, or says there is another way to the Father apart from Christ is the day I will also say he is not saved. This is simply not the case now.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

godrulz...

Did you not read what Aimiel said here...
What more proof do you need? Aimiel has not "bowed" to the Jesus of the bible, but to a false Jesus based on his own personal experience. Experiential theology is the underlying foundation of ALL cults.

Aimiel is in a cult of Christian mysticism, not in the body of Christ.
This is not rhetoric, but a fundemental truth about false teachers and the doctrine that the hold to.

I find it odd that more people here would blindly accept someone just because they use alot of Christian cliches. I know Mormans, JWs, Unitarians, and others who can talk the talk, just like Aimiel, but they are still a cult.

Let's get all the facts before we make a definitive judgment. Excuse me for getting caught in the crossfire. My motive is to judge accurately, not take sides.

Remember when I first heard of keypurr? I was suggesting we should give her the benefit of the doubt. I thought she was an uneducated grandmother who loved God, but was weak on doctrinal/academic issues. Turns out the sweet grandmother that I thought you were being harsh with is a MAN?! Soon enough, it became apparent that he was a polytheistic, Arian (believes Jesus is a lesser, created god/angel)?!

With new information, I have changed my perceptions and actively rebuke his false beliefs.

I know what it is like to have my precious faith negated based on misconceptions. I would hope Aimiel would not be cast as an unbeliever based on sloppy wording of his beliefs. I think he said Wick was not a believer, so you agree on that much. Whether we think Billy Graham (or Bush) is a man of God or not, does not affect our destinies. Who we think Jesus is and whether we trust His person and work is what matters. We still need divine qualities to know definitively where others are at if they affirm biblical Christianity (Mormons and Muslims are more cut and dry). I think this is what Aimiel means when there will be people in the Kingdom that we might have wrongly thought should be excluded (or vice verse/included).

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz


God alone knows all of his beliefs and relationship with Him. The day Aimiel renounces Christianity and the Deity of Christ, or says there is another way to the Father apart from Christ is the day I will also say he is not saved. This is simply not the case now.

Is that the same evidence that you need from Reverend Moon? Robert Tilton? Kenneth Copeland?


If you do not judge the wrongs of man, you are in fact judging them for being right.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Sozo

godrulz...

Did you not read what Aimiel said here...
What more proof do you need? Aimiel has not "bowed" to the Jesus of the bible, but to a false Jesus based on his own personal experience. Experiential theology is the underlying foundation of ALL cults.

Aimiel is in a cult of Christian mysticism, not in the body of Christ.
This is not rhetoric, but a fundemental truth about false teachers and the doctrine that the hold to.

I find it odd that more people here would blindly accept someone just because they use alot of Christian cliches. I know Mormans, JWs, Unitarians, and others who can talk the talk, just like Aimiel, but they are still a cult.

Sozo, I suppose that you would say that I'm in a cult of Christian mysticism, too, since my beliefs are similar to Aimiel's. I've met Aimiel and his family. You couldn't be further from the truth when you say that. I don't agree with everything that he believes. But, our differences are minor compared to the fact that we both accepted Christ as our Saviour. Same goes for you and me. I don't agree with everything that you believe either. But, compared to the knowledge that Christ's blood covers our sins, those differences are minor.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

Is that the same evidence that you need from Reverend Moon? Robert Tilton? Kenneth Copeland?


If you do not judge the wrongs of man, you are in fact judging them for being right.

Moon is clearly a false prophet. He claims to be the reincarnation of Christ to finish the job Jesus did not complete?!

Tilton is an exposed fraud (where is he now?), but I do not know whether he is a believer now or not. Jim Bakker also had questionable practices and beliefs. God brought him down, broke him, and raised him up again a new man with new beliefs and humility. I am sure he is not perfect, but I consider him a brother in Christ.

Copeland is also hyper-Word faith. I take exception to his personality, beliefs, and practices, but suspect he is a genuine Christian. We need to discern his ministry. Let God bring him down or lead him into sounder doctrine. Let God judge his eternal destiny. His statement of faith and heart would likely be within evangelical Christianity.

How about looking in the mirror and letting the Spirit and others deal with your doctrinal imperfections and character flaws (unless you are 'perfect')?;)

[godrulz]

Originally posted by ebenz47037

Sozo, I suppose that you would say that I'm in a cult of Christian mysticism, too, since my beliefs are similar to Aimiel's. I've met Aimiel and his family. You couldn't be further from the truth when you say that. I don't agree with everything that he believes. But, our differences are minor compared to the fact that we both accepted Christ as our Saviour. Same goes for you and me. I don't agree with everything that you believe either. But, compared to the knowledge that Christ's blood covers our sins, those differences are minor.

Exactly, God honors faith in Jesus and submission to Him as Lord and Savior. Theological excellence and perfection in belief and practice are not conditions of salvation or no one would be saved. This does not mean that some error is not spiritually fatal or damaging. Truth sets free, but we do not perceive all truth as a newborn Christian. We all have pre-conversion baggage that the Spirit weeds out over time once we are in the Kingdom.

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Sozo

No... no... no... :nono:

I am not assassinating Aimiel's character :(

I am just revealing how Aimiel's character commited suicide.

Ok...I stand corrected.

I don't know much about Kim Clement
Far as I'm concerned...all TV preachers and guests on TBN are out there somewhere beyond the ozone. But, people always think prophets are weird.
Given that Clement said their would be a cure for AIDS in 2002, and we haven't seen it yet...maybe he was wrong.
Does making a mistake...mis-speaking what one genuinely thought the Lord was saying in this case....make one a false prophet? Or is it leading people away from Christ that makes them false?
I got no problem giving Kim Clement a sound dose of reason, but I don't think we need to trash everything either.
Does a prophet need to be infallible? Everything they say has to be perfect?
I don't know...seems like that is a little off to me. Just the other end of the spectrum.
And...who knows, maybe a cure has been found but it's still in testing. How long does it take from discovery to market?

[Jabez]

If he was getting his prophecys for the spirit of God would he ever be wrong?I dont think so..

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Moon is clearly a false prophet. He claims to be the reincarnation of Christ to finish the job Jesus did not complete?!

Tilton is an exposed fraud (where is he now?), but I do not know whether he is a believer now or not. Jim Bakker also had questionable practices and beliefs. God brought him down, broke him, and raised him up again a new man with new beliefs and humility. I am sure he is not perfect, but I consider him a brother in Christ.

Copeland is also hyper-Word faith. I take exception to his personality, beliefs, and practices, but suspect he is a genuine Christian. We need to discern his ministry. Let God bring him down or lead him into sounder doctrine. Let God judge his eternal destiny. His statement of faith and heart would likely be within evangelical Christianity.

How about looking in the mirror and letting the Spirit and others deal with your doctrinal imperfections and character flaws (unless you are 'perfect')?;)

That's ridiculous, godrulz. Based on your logic, we cannot scrutinize anyone's teachings who claim Christ.

Kenneth Copeland has denied Christ's deity. Aimiel has affirmed it. But the fact remains, when confronted with the truth, how do they respond? Aimiel, has been corrected of his false teachings, and yet, he boldly & proudly affirms that he is right through his "experience". If this was a church, he would be put out of fellowship. But, he would not in his church, because it is a cult!

Here is the choice for you, Nori, and anyone else. Either I am wrong about Aimiel's version of the truth and should be dis-fellowshipped, or he is. You are all free to arrive at that conclusion, and I will accept your response.

Here is a list of people whom I respect as sound believers in the faith, and I will submit to their evaluation of my judgment.

Knight
Turbo
Crow
Poly
One Eyed Jack
Sibbie
Nineveh
Clete
drbrumley
God Is Truth

[Jabez]

sozo iam not not that list,but i agree with you.

[Nineveh]

Sozo,
While you can be harsher than most at times, you are correct in discerning these "prophets" to be charlatans according to the Word. Their own lips give testimony and witness.

As the enemy of my enemy more often than not on TOL, I care for Aimiel, as I am sure this thread bears witness to your concern for him as well. May Christ be honored.

[Crow]

Originally posted by logos_x

Ok...I stand corrected.

I don't know much about Kim Clement
Far as I'm concerned...all TV preachers and guests on TBN are out there somewhere beyond the ozone. But, people always think prophets are weird.
Given that Clement said their would be a cure for AIDS in 2002, and we haven't seen it yet...maybe he was wrong.
Does making a mistake...mis-speaking what one genuinely thought the Lord was saying in this case....make one a false prophet? Or is it leading people away from Christ that makes them false?
I got no problem giving Kim Clement a sound dose of reason, but I don't think we need to trash everything either.
Does a prophet need to be infallible? Everything they say has to be perfect?
I don't know...seems like that is a little off to me. Just the other end of the spectrum.
And...who knows, maybe a cure has been found but it's still in testing. How long does it take from discovery to market?


This is my concern: If an alleged prophet from God is not infallible in his pronouncements, then no matter how sincerely he may believe that he is speaking for God we cannot trust his messages.

Consider the potential for disaster if one of these self-appointed prophets speaks his own ideas and attributes them to God, no matter how sincerely he believes them to be messages from the Holy Spirit. Think of how these messages discredit God in the eyes of the unsaved and become a stumbling block to them. Think of people's faith crumbled when a healing is promised and never comes to pass because the prophet speaks falsely on God's behalf.

This is why I am highly skeptical of prophets, and why I discount them for one bad call. If a messenger is of God, his prophetic vision is perfect. If not, then his prophesies are of man and not of God.

[ebenz47037]

Originally posted by Sozo

That's ridiculous, godrulz. Based on your logic, we cannot scrutinize anyone's teachings who claim Christ.

Kenneth Copeland has denied Christ's deity. Aimiel has affirmed it. But the fact remains, when confronted with the truth, how do they respond? Aimiel, has been corrected of his false teachings, and yet, he boldly & proudly affirms that he is right through his "experience". If this was a church, he would be put out of fellowship. But, he would not in his church, because it is a cult!

Personally, I have never heard Kenneth Copeland. The only thing I know of him is what I've seen on TOL, both good and bad. I know that quite a few people were brought to Christ because of watching Kenneth Copeland, Jimmy Swaggert, PTL, and the like. One of my best friends accepted Christ when she was four years old while watching Copeland (according to her mother). That goes to prove that God will use men who don't exactly go with everyone's idea of what Christianity is to bring people to Him.

After talking to Aimiel and his wife, I know that the experience that he's talking about is the everyday experience of his relationship with Christ. He talks to God everyday and God speaks to him. I do the same thing, Sozo. I speak to God everyday and God speaks to me.

Here is the choice for you, Nori, and anyone else. Either I am wrong about Aimiel's version of the truth and should be dis-fellowshipped, or he is. You are all free to arrive at that conclusion, and I will accept your response.

I think that the choice you're giving me is wrong, Sozo. I don't ascribe to WOF, but I agree with a lot of what Aimiel believes. I don't agree with everything that you've said on here, but I agree with a lot of it. I've seen both you and Aimiel do a lot of work for God on TOL. When people have PM'd me on here and asked me what I believe, I have said it's a cross between what you believe and what Aimiel believes.

If you put the differences aside and look at the fact that you both do your best to put Christ first in your lives, you'd see that I'm not far from the truth here. I love you and I love Aimiel. I don't want to get stuck in the middle of this. But, I've seen you attacking other things I believe in in the past. I know that you think charasmatics are stupid (and/or blind). I'm a charasmatic. It's okay with me that you feel that way about charasmatics. The only difference between you and me (that I can put my finger on) is that I believe that God works mightily today, healing, filling people with His Spirit, etc. But, we share the major tenets of Christian belief.

I've never seen or heard Aimiel deny the divinity of Christ. So, I cannot call him a heretic. To me, that's what would make me say it. I've never seen you deny the divinity of Christ. So, I cannot call you a heretic. The other stuff is nothing compared to that.

Here is a list of people whom I respect as sound believers in the faith, and I will submit to their evaluation of my judgment.

Knight
Turbo
Crow
Poly
One Eyed Jack
Sibbie
Nineveh
Clete
drbrumley
God Is Truth

I respect them greatly, as well. You're on my list too, Sozo. I have no problem at all with what any of you believe. I just don't agree with all of it. You've all known since I came here that I go to an Assembly of God church. In other words, I'm a pentecostal. But, going to a charasmatic church doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything that my pastor teaches. In fact, we've had enough disagreements that I no longer attend church regularly. But, the A/G is the closest to what I do believe. I believe that there is no such thing as a "Christian church." There are Christians in each denomination. But, no one denomination is Christian. I also believe that there will be a lot of people who will be shocked when Christ returns and says, "I know you not."

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Crow

I put him up there with the "Psychic Friends." Well his very comfortable multi-millionaire status would indicate that Robertson certainly has their knack for bilking the gullible...

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

That's ridiculous, godrulz. Based on your logic, we cannot scrutinize anyone's teachings who claim Christ.

Kenneth Copeland has denied Christ's deity. Aimiel has affirmed it. But the fact remains, when confronted with the truth, how do they respond? Aimiel, has been corrected of his false teachings, and yet, he boldly & proudly affirms that he is right through his "experience". If this was a church, he would be put out of fellowship. But, he would not in his church, because it is a cult!

Here is the choice for you, Nori, and anyone else. Either I am wrong about Aimiel's version of the truth and should be dis-fellowshipped, or he is. You are all free to arrive at that conclusion, and I will accept your response.

Here is a list of people whom I respect as sound believers in the faith, and I will submit to their evaluation of my judgment.

Knight
Turbo
Crow
Poly
One Eyed Jack
Sibbie
Nineveh
Clete
drbrumley
God Is Truth

I agree with most of these people on most topics. How is it that I am a Christ-hating reprobate/liar?

I do not expect to be on your list, but I do not know your criteria for who gets to heaven and who goes to hell.

Copeland does not deny the Deity of Christ. He might have some weird views elsewhere.

I agree we need to judge doctrine. I am not saying Aimiel is right on everything.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz


Copeland does not deny the Deity of Christ.

Here, in his Voice of Victory publication, while speaking for Jesus, Kenneth Copeland proclaims...

"Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you're God. Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of a fanatical way of life. Don't be disturbed when people put you down and speak harshly and roughly of you. They spoke that way of me, should they not speak that way of you?

The more you get to be like me, the more they're going to think that way of you. They crucified me for claiming I was God. But I didn't claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with him and he was in me."Hallelujah. that's what your doing."

(printed in Voice of Victory)

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

I agree with most of these people on most topics. How is it that I am a Christ-hating reprobate/liar?

This thread is not about you. But, I'd be happy to start one! :p

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Nineveh

What would one of these "prophets" you witness to have do to make him no longer Godly in your sight? Fail to recognize The Holy Spirit, the way that most 'professing Christians' do, and not recognize the things that God is doing and saying today.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by godrulz

So, I share sozo's concerns about false prophecy and questionable ministries.Precisely the reason that The Word says that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Crow

This is my concern: If an alleged prophet from God is not infallible in his pronouncements, then no matter how sincerely he may believe that he is speaking for God we cannot trust his messages.

Consider the potential for disaster if one of these self-appointed prophets speaks his own ideas and attributes them to God, no matter how sincerely he believes them to be messages from the Holy Spirit. Think of how these messages discredit God in the eyes of the unsaved and become a stumbling block to them. Think of people's faith crumbled when a healing is promised and never comes to pass because the prophet speaks falsely on God's behalf.

This is why I am highly skeptical of prophets, and why I discount them for one bad call. If a messenger is of God, his prophetic vision is perfect. If not, then his prophesies are of man and not of God.

But...doesn't this kind of reasoning feed the very thing you fear?
If you believe that everything someone says has to be infallible, and you teach others the same idea, then they necessarily must believe everything the prophets say to be infallible.
I personally believe the whole infallibility idea to be flawed. What we need to discern is when a person's word is reliable, but not infallible. Belief in infallablity creates the kind of problems you see just as much as any mis-speaking that might happen.
I think that teaching people how to discern how reliable someones words are would serve much better, because then they would know how much wieght to place on what was spoken.

Just a thought.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Sozo

Here, in his Voice of Victory publication, while speaking for Jesus, Kenneth Copeland proclaims...

"Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you're God. Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of a fanatical way of life. Don't be disturbed when people put you down and speak harshly and roughly of you. They spoke that way of me, should they not speak that way of you?

The more you get to be like me, the more they're going to think that way of you. They crucified me for claiming I was God. But I didn't claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with him and he was in me."Hallelujah. that's what your doing." What, precisely, do you find wrong with that? Isn't that what you're doing? ... claiming that you're walking with God and that He is in you? :confused:

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Fail to recognize The Holy Spirit, the way that most 'professing Christians' do, and not recognize the things that God is doing and saying today.

You do not believe they could be lying as to the source of their power or in error?

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Sozo

Kenneth Copeland has denied Christ's deity.Where?Aimiel has affirmed it.Liar.Aimiel, has been corrected of his false teachings, and yet, he boldly & proudly affirms that he is right through his "experience".You haven't shown anything I've ever taught to be false.Either I am wrong about Aimiel's version of the truth and should be dis-fellowshipped, or he is.Or, we're both wrong, at least in some area(s), since only The Lord is True, as The Word says, "...let God be true, but every man a liar."

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Nineveh

You do not believe they could be lying as to the source of their power or in error? You tell me who you're talking about, and/or share the 'evidence' you've acquired, and I'll let you know.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Aimiel

You tell me who you're talking about, and/or share the 'evidence' you've acquired, and I'll let you know.

"Who" would be anyone that claims to prophecy in the Name of Christ, then have their prophecies fail.

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Crow

This is my concern: If an alleged prophet from God is not infallible in his pronouncements, then no matter how sincerely he may believe that he is speaking for God we cannot trust his messages. That's what God said. He told us how to determine what prophecy did not come from Him, not how to determine which prophet needs to be stoned.Consider the potential for disaster if one of these self-appointed prophets speaks his own ideas and attributes them to God, no matter how sincerely he believes them to be messages from the Holy Spirit. Yes, and The Body of Christ would be clueless as to what is going to happen in the future, if we were to simply discard, out-of-hand, the gift of prophecy, as it stands, in today's church. We have to use discernment, to determine what is The Word of God, when listening to prophecy. Just as The Lord used Balaam (among countless others) to prophecy His Truth, He can also use the best (as well as the worst) of believers (and, yes, He can even use non-believers to prophecy, as He did with Saul) to get His Information to the person that He wants to get it to. This is why I am highly skeptical of prophets, and why I discount them for one bad call.Yes, throw out the baby with the bath-water. Kill the messenger. That's smart.If a messenger is of God, his prophetic vision is perfect.Yes, Biblical Prophets, Perfect. Their trans-literation of The Word of God into printed form, truly Divinely Inspired. They weren't perfect men, neither were the Apostles, and neither is anyone else on this earth, since Jesus was The Only One to ever do The Father's Will at every moment of every second of His Life.If not, then his prophesies are of man and not of God. They are often of demons, as well. I have also seen God use the false prophecies from people who have spoken words inspired by demons to speak truth to people, who have the ears to hear.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

Here, in his Voice of Victory publication, while speaking for Jesus, Kenneth Copeland proclaims...

"Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of thinking you're God. Don't be disturbed when people accuse you of a fanatical way of life. Don't be disturbed when people put you down and speak harshly and roughly of you. They spoke that way of me, should they not speak that way of you?

The more you get to be like me, the more they're going to think that way of you. They crucified me for claiming I was God. But I didn't claim I was God; I just claimed I walked with him and he was in me."Hallelujah. that's what your doing."

(printed in Voice of Victory)


What does the ministry's statement of faith say? If it affirms the traditional Deity of Chrits, you need to put this other quote in context. Jesus did not say: "Hey, Jews, I am God."

He did say: I and the Father are one; I am the Son of God; I am the Lord of the Sabbath; I forgive sin; I do the work of the Father; "I AM", etc. He did not say "I am God", but these statements and the worship He received mean He is God and equal with the Father.

The quote is stupid and open to misunderstanding. It should be retracted and clarified by Copeland. If He truly believes Christ is a created being or that we are gods by nature (not just 'gods'/judges in the OT usage), then he is a false teacher/wing ding. He cannot affirm the Trinity and deny the Deity of Christ at the same time, so I think his statements are just very poor teaching inconsistent, on the surface, with his more orthodox beliefs.

I do not follow his ministry, so need all the facts to make a final pronouncement. He is probably like Benny Hinn who has made stupid statements that he has since retracted (like 9 persons in the Trinity).

[Aimiel]

Originally posted by Jabez

If he was getting his prophecys for the spirit of God would he ever be wrong?I dont think so.. This is the basic error that doubters of the gift of prophecy and the five-fold ministry gift of the Prophet (given to The Body of Christ), which is to assume that if someone prophecies one erroneous prophecy, that they should be stoned. Jesus said that he that is without sin should cast the first stone at the woman who was caught in adultery. Why did He not throw it? Because He wants us to learn from our mistakes, not be put to death if we make one. :thumb:

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sozo

This thread is not about you. But, I'd be happy to start one! :p

I think your opinion on myself is available on several other threads. This is what I get for poking my nose in someone else's business. Sorry. I honestly think some of your judgments are hasty without a clarification of all the facts. Aimiel might want to expand on what he really believes.

[Crow]

Originally posted by logos_x

But...doesn't this kind of reasoning feed the very thing you fear?
If you believe that everything someone says has to be infallible, and you teach others the same idea, then they necessarily must believe everything the prophets say to be infallible.
I personally believe the whole infallibility idea to be flawed. What we need to discern is when a person's word is reliable, but not infallible. Belief in infallablity creates the kind of problems you see just as much as any mis-speaking that might happen.
I think that teaching people how to discern how reliable someones words are would serve much better, because then they would know how much wieght to place on what was spoken.

Just a thought.
I say that if a prophet speaks and attributes his words to God, if those words he speaks are not true, then he is not a prophet of God. He's pulling these predictions from somewhere, but not from God.

When he speaks and does not attribute his words to God, then he is speaking his own words, and cannot be held to perfection as these are clearly human messages and therefore imperfect.

We test those who claim to prophesize by examining their prophesies.

If they are "reliable" but not perfect in their predictions, then God is not speaking through them, as He is not "virtually perfect" but perfect. Infallible. Not just mostly reliable.

This does not lead to believing that everything a "prophet" says is true, but rather discerning false prophets.

If one speaks the words of God, they will be true. One false statement attributed to God will show that a person is not a prophet.

There is always a danger that the gullible will believe a false prophet on a couple of good hits, but there's not much you can do about the gullible. They will believe stupidities and falsehoods on the lack of proof, conflicting proof, or sorta-looks-OK proof regardless.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Aimiel

Fail to recognize The Holy Spirit, the way that most 'professing Christians' do, and not recognize the things that God is doing and saying today.

This sounds subjective. We need an objective standard= pri