The "Rapture" defined.

[STONE]

What can be known about the rapture?

[Granite]

It's fiction, among other things.

[On Fire]

Originally posted by granite1010

It's fiction, among other things.

Prove it, soiled toilet tissue.

[Granite]

On Fire, grow up. It's fundies like you who've given your faith a rotten name.

You don't need to be a non-Christian to think the rapture's a fantasy, by the way. It is by no means an issue all Christians agree on (in fact you'd be hard pressed to find ANYTHING Christians agree on across the board). Or have you not read anything about the subject?

[On Fire]

Originally posted by granite1010

On Fire, grow up. It's fundies like you who've given your faith a rotten name.

You don't need to be a non-Christian to think the rapture's a fantasy, by the way. It is by no means an issue all Christians agree on (in fact you'd be hard pressed to find ANYTHING Christians agree on across the board). Or have you not read anything about the subject?

Thanks for the non-answer. I'll take that as a fall.

The fact that Christianity has a bad name in your mind (and in the minds of your fellow sin lovers) means absolutely NOTHING to me.

[Granite]

Originally posted by On Fire

Thanks for the non-answer. I'll take that as a fall.

The fact that Christianity has a bad name in your mind (and in the minds of your fellow sin lovers) means absolutely NOTHING to me.

As a WHAT? On Fire, have you read about the different interpretations of eschatology?

[On Fire]

Why do you assume "all Christians" should automatically agree on everything? Do you know what it means to be human?

[Granite]

...because it means the Holy Spirit's biggest priority, evidently, is creating disunity. You people can't agree on anything.

Anyway, back to the rapture--not to totally hijack this thread with your foul mouth and my cynicism--what reading slash study have you done on the subject?

[On Fire]

I think you should change your user name to "talc0001".

[Granite]

It sounds like you wandered onto this thread to hijack it, OF. Do you know what you're talking about when it comes to eschatology?

[On Fire]

Our Lord will return, the dead will be raised, and the final judgment will take place.

[Granite]

Sure. Two thousand years and counting. Any time you're ready...

I'm glad you broke it down to the three basics, anyway. Everything else beyond that is window dressing, as far as Christianity is concerned. Vis a vis the rapture, however, what are your thoughts?

[On Fire]

Our Lord will return, the dead will be raised, and the final judgment will take place. No need to speculate.

[Granite]

Good. So you either don't know what you're talking about when it comes to the rapture, or you're too lazy to look into it.

That's what I thought. Moving on.

[elected4ever]

The word is resurrection not rapture. Don't worry granite, you will be there dead or alive. You will not miss it.

[Granite]

Originally posted by elected4ever

The word is resurrection not rapture. Don't worry granite, you will be there dead or alive. You will not miss it.

Uh-huuuuuuh. Talk about a toothless guarantee...

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by granite1010

Uh-huuuuuuh. Talk about a toothless guarantee...

Don't worry about it. You will be the first to know. We wouldn't do something like that without you.:freak:

[Granite]

:rolleyes:

Promises like this are pretty tiring. Another instance of Christians playing poker without having to show their hand or their chips, despite upping the ante whenever they open their mouths.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by granite1010

:rolleyes:

Promises like this are pretty tiring. Another instance of Christians playing poker without having to show their hand or their chips, despite upping the ante whenever they open their mouths. We arn't the ones playing poker. You are. If it doesn't happen nether of us will lose and if it does Wellllllll:liberals:

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by STONE

What can be known about the rapture?

From 1 Corinthians 15:

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed-- in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

From 1 Thessalonians 4:

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

[Granite]

Doesn't sound like a terribly "secret" event.

[Nineveh]

Secret?

[billwald]

For openers, the Dispensationalists got it backwards. As in the days of Noah . . . the good guys stayed on this earth and the bad guys were killed.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by STONE

What can be known about the rapture?
:Brandon:

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

:vomit::dog:

[philosophizer]

:darwinsm:

[Granite]

Originally posted by lighthouse


:confused:

[Lighthouse]

rocky-
That's you, returning to your vomit.

[Granite]

Do you have anything better to do? Or do you know next to nothing about the "rapture" and eschatology, and have nothing to contribute?

[Lighthouse]

"But is happened unto them according to the true proverb [Proverbs 26:11], The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
-2 Peter 2:22

"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly."
-Proverbs 26:11

As for my knowledge of the rapture, did you miss my first post in this thread? Post #24 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=629808#post629808)

[Granite]

Originally posted by lighthouse

"But is happened unto them according to the true proverb [Proverbs 26:11], The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire."
-2 Peter 2:22

"As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly."
-Proverbs 26:11

As for my knowledge of the rapture, did you miss my first post in this thread? Post #24 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=629808#post629808)

Well that answers that...

Sorry, Stone. Looks like this thread hasn't attracted the kind of answers you were looking for.

[jjjg]

What is laughable is that the term "rapture" is only in the Catholic Bible, but the Catholics laugh at the fundies interpretation the Catholic Bible and the fact they depend on a Catholic source.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by jjjg

What is laughable is that the term "rapture" is only in the Catholic Bible, but the Catholics laugh at the fundies interpretation the Catholic Bible and the fact they depend on a Catholic source.

rapture: The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.

Paul: and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Sounds like a specific name given to an idea to me.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by elected4ever

The word is resurrection not rapture. Don't worry granite, you will be there dead or alive. You will not miss it.


In truth it is not 'resurection but "TRANSLATION"
For what is comnonly called the 'rapture' is what happened to ENOCH and the scriptures say he was "translated."

[billwald]

"rapture: The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven."

Not in "Webster's Seventh New Collegiate," the last dictionary before the wholesale trashing of the English language. This new definition obviously comes from Darby's theology.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by granite1010

Doesn't sound like a terribly "secret" event.

It is MEN who have JUMPED to the conclusion that it is a secret.
What DOES happen is that He will coem a s a thief in the night.
A thief comes QUIETLY and with the intention of taking those things which the household thinks are theirs and making them his own.
Thus MANY believe that THEY are part of the BRIDE without any RECOGNISABLE fruits to make them so.
and they who WILL make up the bride will be despised and forsaken by thier own bretheren and her enemies will be of her own household.
Even as it was of the groom.
Thus He will come at a time when the church thinks NOT "but to them that LOOK for Him to THEM shall He apear the second time"
In the MAIN BODY the LORD is OUTSIDE the church knoking at the door seekign entrance.
But is too busy with her own programes to hear Him knocking.
But to THEM who DO hear Him and open the door the promise is that the FATHER and the SON will come and sup with.
The church that thinks it is RICH and is in need of nothing will be caught unawares for like LOT she is BLIND to the hour in which she lives.
too busy 'celebrating'!
When she sould be weeping sighing and groaning for the abominations that are in the land.
and going out to win souls for the KINGDOM not for that particular denomination in which they boast.

The 'rapture' then is the lord coming FOR His bride.
The rest of the BODY will be asleep and not ready.
and HE WILL COME AS LIGHTENING.
COME AND GONE in a blink of an eye.

Then AFTER the wedding HE WILL COME .......WITH His bride.
to REIGN over all the earth.
and the goverment shall be upon His SHOULDERS.
iT IS TO THEM then who SUFFER WITH Him NOW who will REIGN with Him THEN.
tHEY WHO FOR WHATEVER REASON are not willing to NOW will not then.

The shoulders are the nearest PART of the BODY to the head.

Therefore even as BRIDE WALKS WITH her LORD so then will they who will "LOVE His apearing"
Those who find themselves NOT ready they will be WEAPING AND WAILING for they have MISSSED THAT for which they have been "aprehended for"

Those not saved at all it will all be a mystery as to where have these people gone.
But any who have a measure of spiritual understanding will know it.

[billwald]

It is men who have concluded that they go to Heaven while the bad guys stay here.

[natewood3]

Where would the rapture be found in Revelation? When I say "rapture" I am speaking of a pretribulational rapture...

[Granite]

Dispensationalism's a crock. Its own sensationalism (and shoddy leadership) have discredited it. I mean, look at some of these winners:

Hal Lindsey (need I say more?)
Salem Kirban (the head transplant guy)
Jack Van Impe (scary...just scary)
Edgar Whisenant (88 reasons!)

[bibleverse2]

"After that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

-- Mark 13:24-27

"We beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"

-- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

-- Revelation 13:10

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

-- Revelation 14:12-13

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy."

-- 1 Peter 4:12-13

[Granite]

Point?

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by natewood3

Where would the rapture be found in Revelation? When I say "rapture" I am speaking of a pretribulational rapture...

It's not. Like much of the rest of the Bible, Rev it's written to Jews. Pauls explains the "mystery" to the Church. The rapture isn't any more for the Jews than Jacob's trouble is for the Body.

[Zakath]

I've got my eye on a nice hummer owned by a fundy who lives up the road... if this rapture stuff happens I'm gonna get there first and claim the vehicle...

:chuckle:

[Nineveh]

I doubt he will mind :) Nice having fundy friends isn't it? Generous folks, we :)

[geralduk]

Originally posted by natewood3

Where would the rapture be found in Revelation? When I say "rapture" I am speaking of a pretribulational rapture...

Jesus speaking of John said there was one here who would not see death untill he saw the Lord descend from heaven.

BEFORE the outpouring of Gods wrath upon all the earth John hear a voice from heaven which said "COME UP hither"
So John WAS IN HEAVEN when the wrath of God broke out and the great tribulation came to pass.

Dont though jump against it just because there is not enough other scriptures given to prove or test it.
There is ENOUGH other scripture in sundry times and in divers ways that can and does prove and test it.

But you have but asked for that scripture that speaks of a rapture before the great tribulation.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by Nineveh

It's not. Like much of the rest of the Bible, Rev it's written to Jews. Pauls explains the "mystery" to the Church. The rapture isn't any more for the Jews than Jacob's trouble is for the Body.

The rapture is primarily the catching up of the GENTILE bride.
Though no doubt there will be SOME jews among them.
But the main bidy of the jews will be saved only AFTER the bride has been caught up.

For types we can see that MOSES was ALREADY MARRIED to a GENTILE bride BEFORE he became thier 'savior'

We can find that JOSEPH the most perfect of types for Christ was also ALREADY married to a GENTILE bride BEFORE he revealed himself to those who had thought him dead.

As to it primarily being ONLy to the jews you give no FOUNDATION of scripture for such a statement.
Yet seeign that ONE letetr to the churches was to EPHASAS which if we read the letter to the Ephesians we will find that it was PRIMARILY a GENTILE church.
How then can it be said the book of revaltion was to the jews only! seeign that ONE PART of it at least is adressed to a GENTILE CHURCH!
In truth there is NO possible and reasonable foundation which can be found in that book to say that gentiles are excluded from its message!

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by geralduk

The rapture is primarily the catching up of the GENTILE bride.

The Body is Christ. The Bride is Isreal.

Though no doubt there will be SOME jews among them.

In Christ there is no Jew or Gentile.

But the main bidy of the jews will be saved only AFTER the bride has been caught up.

The Body aka the Church.

As to it primarily being ONLy to the jews you give no FOUNDATION of scripture for such a statement.

Primarily Jews what? The Bible or the rapture? The rapture is for the Church. And if you haven't noted it by now, the majority of the Bible is about Jews.

Yet seeign that ONE letetr to the churches was to EPHASAS which if we read the letter to the Ephesians we will find that it was PRIMARILY a GENTILE church. How then can it be said the book of revaltion was to the jews only!

The time of Jacob's trouble, which is what Rev is detailing, is written to the Jews. Jacob's trouble is not for the Church.

seeign that ONE PART of it at least is adressed to a GENTILE CHURCH! In truth there is NO possible and reasonable foundation which can be found in that book to say that gentiles are excluded from its message!

Not when it comes to the need to repent of course. But that whole time of Jacob's trouble, which is what Rev is about, is written to the Jews, just as Daniel's 70 weeks. The Body won't be here during that time.

[OMEGA]

Zak,

Hummers waste too much Gas.

Get a Honda or a Toyota or a Mazda.

[csmuda]

Yah. Hummers don't fit through the Starbuck's drive throughs.

[Granite]

I am so biting my tongue right now.

[Lighthouse]

granite has a dirty mind.

[Granite]

Originally posted by lighthouse

granite has a dirty mind.

Lighten up, ya prude!:D

[Lighthouse]

:chuckle:

[OMEGA]

Yeah, some of the Washrooms at Starbucks

need to be cleaned better

just like Granites mind.

[csmuda]

:o

[Granite]

Originally posted by OMEGA

Yeah, some of the Washrooms at Starbucks

need to be cleaned better

just like Granites mind.

:kookoo:

[Lighthouse]

Looks like granite agrees with SOTK. I concur.

[OMEGA]

Let us here it for those who are REAL CHRISTIANS .


Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts,

neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.


Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure:

but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure;

but even their mind and conscience is defiled.

[csmuda]

Well I'm sorry but Granite made me laugh right out loud. :)

[OMEGA]

Very interesting but not funny.

[Lighthouse]

Not to you it isn't.:duh:

[Granite]

Still laughing about Hummers and Starbucks and...

All right, all right. I'll stop it now. Don't wanna get banned, or anything...

[STONE]

I would tell you to expect "pre-trib rapture"; however we will be here for the tribulation.
What evidence would some present for post-trib rapture?

[Lighthouse]

How would we be here for the tribulation, if the rapture is before?

[Infamous Plug]

Rapture....

Don't understand it ,it does make sense .

That fact that good people will be gathered up and set in a corner while all the bad stuff in revelations happens ,it's quite odd . Everybody will die and the souls will go up to heaven to be judged , But it seems the people who believe in rapture
are going to get a free pass into heaven.It seems They think they have a get out of jail free card. Being judged will humble everyone and there individual ideals.

When we die its going to be a crash coarse in Cristianity,and there will be no speculation.No holding on to ideas.
Learn as much as you can before the harvest and some things will be less of a suprise and some a complete surprise .Until we die we will never know the completly absolute.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Infamous Plug

Rapture....

Don't understand it ,it does make sense .

That fact that good people will be gathered up and set in a corner while all the bad stuff in revelations happens ,it's quite odd . Everybody will die and the souls will go up to heaven to be judged , But it seems the people who believe in rapture
are going to get a free pass into heaven.It seems They think they have a get out of jail free card. Being judged will humble everyone and there individual ideals.

When we die its going to be a crash coarse in Cristianity,and there will be no speculation.No holding on to ideas.
Learn as much as you can before the harvest and some things will be less of a suprise and some a complete surprise .Until we die we will never know the completly absolute.
Let me give you a little help. The rapture is not a "free pass." And all will be judged.

[keypurr]

How would we be here for the tribulation, if the rapture is before?

How about what happened in Egypt when Moses was there??

It could be like that. Thoes who do not have the mark of the beast will be passed over. Try that theory. Then find out what the mark of the beast is.

[Lighthouse]

Those who do not have the mark are those who came to the Lord, after the rapture.:doh:

[jeremiah]

Yeshua, Jesus, ascended into heaven, in the clouds. Two "angels"said He would return in the self same way. [Acts ch.1]
The rapture is the teaching that when Yeshua returns as the lion of Judah and as King and judge of the earth; He will return, descending from heaven on the clouds, with the dead in Christ with Him. Then we who are alive and remain shall look up and see Him and this great entourage of saints and angels, and we shall be caught up, raptured, into the "cloud", the presence of God. We shall then land with Him on the Mount of Olives.
The purpose of the rapture is to rescue the "godly "from the wrath of the Lamb. This will cut short the wrath of Satan, the "great" tribulation, against the Jews and the Christians.
With all the angels and the saints assemled in Jerusalem and the land of Israel. The nations and those individuals who persecuted the saints, will experience the judgment they thought was never coming, from the One who offered them salvation and mercy in His name.
Most American Christians believe in these teachings, with the rapture occuring before the great tribulation. They are simply wrong and deceived. They believe that only "tribulation" saints go through the entire seventieth week of Daniel, and they are NOT expecting to see the "man of sin" and suffer persecution, torture, and death, for their faith in the Saviour.
It seems clear to me that Christians and Christianity are becoming more hated and a hated "religion". If the sentiment continues to grow, at the current rate I suspect another twenty years and the world will gladly put us to death, as they blame us for making them feel guilty and sinful, and as the root cause of evil and violence in the utopia, they hope to create without us.

[Granite]

Originally posted by lighthouse

How would we be here for the tribulation, if the rapture is before?

Because not all dispensationalists think the rapture is PRE-tribulational. Some think it's before the tribulation, others think it'll happen in the three and a half year mark, still others believe in a post-trib rapture.

Lord Jesus, beam me out of here...:D

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

Because not all dispensationalists think the rapture is PRE-tribulational. Some think it's before the tribulation, others think it'll happen in the three and a half year mark, still others believe in a post-trib rapture.

Lord Jesus, beam me out of here...:D
Did you even read the question? If the rapture comes before the tribulation, how would present Christians be here for the tribulation? There, I rephrased it for you. Do you get it now, or are you too stupid to pay attention?

[elohiym]

Originally posted by STONE

What can be known about the rapture? Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:51,52


We shall be changed, putting on incorruption.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by lighthouse

How would we be here for the tribulation, if the rapture is before?

If we are NOT ready.

[Granite]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Did you even read the question? If the rapture comes before the tribulation, how would present Christians be here for the tribulation? There, I rephrased it for you. Do you get it now, or are you too stupid to pay attention?

Brandon, get bent, take a pill, find a female companion, or just have a cigarette. Anything at all to make you less of an SOB would be appreciated.

[keypurr]

Lighthouse quote
How would we be here for the tribulation, if the rapture is before?
Lighthouse, why do you think the rapture is BEFORE the tribulation? Have you been listening to Jack Van Empi?

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by geralduk

If we are NOT ready.
So, those who are not raptured? Okay.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

Brandon, get bent, take a pill, find a female companion, or just have a cigarette. Anything at all to make you less of an SOB would be appreciated.
I've never picked up a cigarette, and I never will. And you're the one who misunderstood a simple question.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by keypurr

Lighthouse, why do you think the rapture is BEFORE the tribulation? Have you been listening to Jack Van Empi?
A few things:
1] His last name is Impe.
2] The question had nothing to do with what I believe. geralduk said he believed the rapture was before the tribulation, and he made reference to Christians who are left behind. So I asked him how that would work, [b]if[/i] the rapture occured first.
3] I don't listen to Impe. He's full of it. And I have always believed in a pre-trib rapture.

[Granite]

Actually his last name is "Van Impe."

On this much we agree, the guy is full of it. Texe Marrs territory...

[Lighthouse]

Whatever. I was just concerned with the misspelling of Impe.

[STONE]

Lighthouse,
Can you back up your position that Van Impe is "full of it"?

[STONE]

Van Impe is all about how he perceives current events relate to bible prophecy. In his every broadcast he attempts to lead people to Christ.
How in your mind does he require the label of "full of it".

Maybe you mean you appreciate that the guy is out there trying to convince people time is short and to accept Christ, but some of his opinions on current events you don't agree with.

[Lighthouse]

Have you everlistened to the guy? If you agree with him, then you;re just as lost as he is. But, we already knew that.

[Granite]

The guy is a nut, like most pre-trib date setters.

(I mean, look at the hair, for crying out loud.)

[STONE]

Originally posted by lighthouse
If you agree with him, then you;re just as lost as he is. But, we already knew that.

The lost are those who have not found Jesus.
If you disagree with him to the extent you need to slander him and put him down, then why not instead email him and tell him what you disagree with.
I may not agree with his assessments of current events, but I know he is working to bring people into a relationship with Jesus.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by STONE

The lost are those who have not found Jesus.
If you disagree with him to the extent you need to slander him and put him down, then why not instead email him and tell him what you disagree with.
I may not agree with his assessments of current events, but I know he is working to bring people into a relationship with Jesus.

[Lighthouse]

geralduk-
To get back into our conversation, who is it that you think will not be raptured?

[keypurr]

Light house mark your calender, we agree that Jack is full of it. However I do think he is sincere, but way off base. Scarey isn't it? By the way I am the worlds worst speller and my fingers do not feel the keys all the time because of health problems so please forgive my spelling mistakes.

Now in your words "And I have always believed in a pre-trib rapture." May I ask why?

[Lighthouse]

I have always beleived that, mostly because it's what i was taught. But I have sought the evidence for the different views, when I learned of them. I have seen the strongest support for pre-trib. Well, that's the only view I've seen supported in scripture.

[bibleverse2]

"After that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

-- Mark 13:24-27

[csmuda]

Originally posted by lighthouse

I have always beleived that, mostly because it's what i was taught. But I have sought the evidence for the different views, when I learned of them. I have seen the strongest support for pre-trib. Well, that's the only view I've seen supported in scripture. Friend, you've not looked hard enough. I'll say it again: you will never ever ever find one single verse to set precedence for a two-stage return of Christ. Never...ever. If you really let scripture speak the very least you will find is one single second advent of Christ. And that will only allow you post tribulation. Unless some of the preteristic ideas are entertained.

then one eventually has to deal with premillennium, Amillennium, or postmillennium.

I left catholicism for fundamentalism in the early 1980's. in less than ten years I was searching and searching for on verse. Just one verse (not two, three, four, five, six, seven, an/or smoke&mirrors) ONE. there is nothing in the Christian canon that sets the Blessed Hope as two events seperated by years. NOTHING.

therefore, if scripture buildup and narrative development means anything you biblicists in denial, you have topical references to one single event at the end of the world. Age, days - whatever word one clings to.

One Return. therefore one return must be placed. Is it literal bodily visible? Is it personal and subjective? If the former is it after "the great Trib" or has that already happened?

What I find really pathetic is that dispyland may well win this theological battle. At least in developing nations. Can't see it getting much foothold amongst the truly persecuted Christians in Sidan or India. But in the grunt grunt piggy world of American we can sit back in our overstuffed lazyboys sipping our eggnog and sighing that, "Gosh, maybe it'll be today?"

I think that it is written that He saved us from the wrath to come because they believed He would return in their lifetime. OR, or, perhaps being killed in horrible ways because one is a Christian isn't wrath. perhaps wrath is the day of vengence of our God?

[Granite]

Total tangent here...

Suppose the "second coming" was like the first, in that Christ is born into humble surroundings and begins what amounts to a grassroots ministry.

How long would he last before he got killed by a mob again?

[keypurr]

Bibleverse2 post: "After that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."
from Mark 13:24-
Lighthouse this should start you thinking about another view of the rapture.

csmuda quote: Friend, you've not looked hard enough. I'll say it again: you will never ever ever find one single verse to set precedence for a two-stage return of Christ.
Do you think he is coming for a third time, after the thousand years period to execute judgment?

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by csmuda

Friend, you've not looked hard enough. I'll say it again: you will never ever ever find one single verse to set precedence for a two-stage return of Christ. Never...ever. If you really let scripture speak the very least you will find is one single second advent of Christ. And that will only allow you post tribulation. Unless some of the preteristic ideas are entertained.

then one eventually has to deal with premillennium, Amillennium, or postmillennium.

I left catholicism for fundamentalism in the early 1980's. in less than ten years I was searching and searching for on verse. Just one verse (not two, three, four, five, six, seven, an/or smoke&mirrors) ONE. there is nothing in the Christian canon that sets the Blessed Hope as two events seperated by years. NOTHING.

therefore, if scripture buildup and narrative development means anything you biblicists in denial, you have topical references to one single event at the end of the world. Age, days - whatever word one clings to.

One Return. therefore one return must be placed. Is it literal bodily visible? Is it personal and subjective? If the former is it after "the great Trib" or has that already happened?

What I find really pathetic is that dispyland may well win this theological battle. At least in developing nations. Can't see it getting much foothold amongst the truly persecuted Christians in Sidan or India. But in the grunt grunt piggy world of American we can sit back in our overstuffed lazyboys sipping our eggnog and sighing that, "Gosh, maybe it'll be today?"

I think that it is written that He saved us from the wrath to come because they believed He would return in their lifetime. OR, or, perhaps being killed in horrible ways because one is a Christian isn't wrath. perhaps wrath is the day of vengence of our God?
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3

[bibleverse2]

"We beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming"

-- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

[STONE]

Originally posted by bibleverse2

"After that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

-- Mark 13:24-27
Thanks. Now we are getting somewhere.
Maybe we need to define what we mean by "tribulation"

personal tribulation...specific tribulation...any tribulation...God's retributory tribulation...the Great Tribulation...etc...


"and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God."

[bibleverse2]

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands... These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

-- Revelation 7:9,14

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

-- Revelation 13:10

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

-- Revelation 14:12-13

[Granite]

Originally posted by bibleverse2

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands... These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

-- Revelation 7:9,14

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

-- Revelation 13:10

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

-- Revelation 14:12-13

Congratulations. Someone can cut and paste.

[Lighthouse]

bibleverse2-
Are you related to Squeaky and Squeakybro? Can you answer my question without using a Bible verse?

[bibleverse2]

> Lighthouse wrote:
> "...Can you answer my question..."
> [Lighthouse had written:
> "...who is it that you think will not be raptured?"]
>

"...the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars..."

-- Revelation 21:8

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

-- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

> Lighthouse wrote:
> "...without using a Bible verse?"
>

"Preach the word..."

-- 2 Timothy 4:2

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by bibleverse2

> Lighthouse wrote:
> "...Can you answer my question..."
> [Lighthouse had written:
> "...who is it that you think will not be raptured?"]
>

"...the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars..."

-- Revelation 21:8

"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God."

-- 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

> Lighthouse wrote:
> "...without using a Bible verse?"
>

"Preach the word..."

-- 2 Timothy 4:2
Wrong question. Are you related to Squeaky and Squeakybro? That is the question.

[geralduk]

Originally posted by lighthouse

A few things:
1] His last name is Impe.
2] The question had nothing to do with what I believe. geralduk said he believed the rapture was before the tribulation, and he made reference to Christians who are left behind. So I asked him how that would work, [b]if[/i] the rapture occured first.
3] I don't listen to Impe. He's full of it. And I have always believed in a pre-trib rapture.


First let it be understood" that ALL who live godly in Christ Jesus WILL suffer persecution"
Therefore it is written in the world "ye will have tribulation"
But there is "tribulation" and there is "THE GREAT tribulation" that will come upon ALL the earth.
The first is by the SPIRIT of antichrist that is even now in the world and was present from JOHNS time AND HAS BEEN UNTO NOW.
That is the 'normal' "emnity" that is between the seed of the sepent and the seed of the woman"
But the great tribulation comes when the spirit of antiChrist INDWELLS the PERSON the son of perdition the antichirst WHO WILL MAKE HIMSELF AS GOD in the temple at jerusalem.
Those days will be like no other that HAS been nor ever will be again and if God did not shorthe them then NO ONE would be saved.
We must take care over our words then.
For many have confused the 'normal ' tribulation' of the saints and that GREAT tribulation that shall come upon all the earth.
A search through the scriptures will confirm the difference.

HOW that would work?
You are still under the misaprehension that ALL christians will be raptured.
Both logicly and reasonably this CANNOT be so for the scriptures show clearly of peopel being SAVED after it and during the great tribulation.
Now men have ignored other scriptures and by just highliting those one or twe verse that says the church is His bride and the fact that there ARE people saved durign the great tribulation have JUMPED TO THE CONCLUSION that there is neither NO rapture or that it comes on the great day of the LORD when "EVERY eye shall see Him"
But then do nothing with that scripture that is oppisite that says "they who LOOk for Him shall HE APEAR....." scriptural logic then folows which says that they who do NOT will not!
Even as they who honour Me I will honour folows that they who do not are not!"
I hold to the truth that ALL scripture is divinely inspired.
and thus each PART MUST and DOES PERFECTLY dovetail with all other scripture.
and needs no twisting of it to make it fit.
Thus they who LOOK must see soemthing that they who do NOT will not.
Now some then try and marry that with the idea that JUST BEFORE He comes and steps on the mount of OLIVES all christians will be caught up to meet Him in the air.
But in truth that truly doies not anwer the contradiction nor satisfactoraly answer WHY this happens.
let alone marry it will ALL THE OTHER scripture that shows that there will be a SPECIAL BODY out of the GENERAL body.
I cannot hope to adequately cover the subject here.
Nor think I can as yet do as good a job as it needs to.
nevertheless I can put a few pointers your way for your meditation.
1) Eve who was to be the FIRST Adams bride was taken from the MIDST of HIS BODY.
2)Abraham sought a BRIDE for the Son to be taken only" from AMONG his BRETHEREN"
2) There was 12 tribes making up the WHOLE household of ISREAL but from AMONG them was taken LEVI who had NO inheritence on earth but whos inheritence was GOD.
3)There was 12 discples and OUT FROM AMONG them Jesus took "peter james and JOHN" who SAW things that the others did not.
and even out from AMONG THEM there was JOHN "whom JESUS LOVED"
4) OUT OF ALL the nations there is ONE nation above them all ISREAL.
5)PROVERBS who can find a virtous woman?.....
"MANY daughters have done virtously, but thou excelest them all"
Therefore the notion that becausee are BORNagain gives us an AUTOMATIC RIGHT toi be in the BRIDE of Christ is a foolish notion.
it DOES qualifiy us to RUN THE RACE ,win the prize but ONLY inso far as we are WILLING to RUN it and be MADE CONFORMABLE to Christ and run LAWFULLY! according to the "LAW OF CHRIST"
tHEREFORE beign BORNagain qualifies us to RUN THE RACE!]
it does NOT give an AUTOMATIC RIGHT TO THRE prize!
I say again then that EVERY TRUE BIBLICAL BORNagain child of God is "CALLED" to that "HIGH calling" and it IS to THAT HIGH CALLING for which we have ALL been "APREHENDED FOR"
But which EVERY child of God "must APREHEND that for which they have been aprehended FOR"
AND BE NOT LIKE THOSE WHO PERISHED in the wilderness.
through UNBELIEF.
MAKE NO MISTAKE THEREFORE ........UNBELIEF is NOT believing .....NOTHING.
fOR IF WE READ the relevant pasaage that PAUL spoke of you will find what?
That they BELIEVED .........................................the WRONG message!
and even as wicked men used to put false lights on the reeefs to bring ships to destruction.
So to has the devil got his "angels of light" who have preached "another gospel"
and which many have folowed unbeknown and are still haveing thier minds BLINDED by a lie.
It was to CHRISTIANS therefore that PAUL prayed that "THE EYEE OF OUR understanding may be opened that we might comprehend with all the sdaints what is the exceedign greatnes sof His power that si towards us who believe............"
The 5 foolish virgins were in ALL other aspects save one the SAME as the 5 wise.
Therefore they were ALL christians.
But it is always preached as beign to the WORLD and NOT to the church!
But the foolishness was in the FALSE expectation that they only needed to be BORNagain but not to HAVE "THIER VESSELS FILLED" AS WELL that was at fault so when the bridegroom came they were not ready and by the time they were ready the door was closed. see also then the crossing of jordan where the same thing happened.


The RAPTURE or I believe the more ACCURATE term would be "translation" occurs when the \Lord comes "as a thief in the night"
FOR His bride.
What does a thief do who comes in the night?
he does NOT come with a loud shout! that wakes up the WHOLE household!
But comes and goes silently unbeknown to them WHO ARE ASLEEP!
AND TAKES THOSE GOODS that they THINK are thiers!

So it is when he comes like LIGHTENING that is to say HE comes AND goes IN A TWINKLING OF AN EYE.
he comes for those who are AWAKE!
and have "made themselves ready"
and are " LOOKING FOR and hastening TO the coming of the Lord"
There were MANY who were TALKING ABOUT the coming MESsiah.
But there were but a FEW who SAW Him come.
So likewise then when He comes though MANY are called few are CHOSEN.
Get a RIGHT IDEA of the BRIDE then and ALL the contrary peices fall into place easyly and without force.

Start with the 'rapture' first and try and work it all out and you will always end up in confusion.
That in itself shows where we are.
For men are taken up with the RAPTURE the going UP!it seems
RATHER THAN in HIM of whom is the goal.
The church today is taken up TOO MUCH WITH HERSELF even as in the song of soloman.
and has her LOVE OUTSIDE KNOCKING AT THE DOOR !
Is that not the picture the Lord paints of that church in revaltion?
Who inher OWN eyes IS "INCREASED IN GOODS,RICH and in NEED OF NOTHING"?
yet in Gods eyes is "poor WRETCHED ANDC BLIND"
nO CHANCE there then of her being FIT as a BRIDE of CHRIST unless we think of Him not according to the scriptures but out of the imagination of our own hearts.

IN Christ
gearld uk

[geralduk]

Originally posted by bibleverse2

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands... These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

-- Revelation 7:9,14

"He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

-- Revelation 13:10

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them."

-- Revelation 14:12-13

Here then you have a DISTINCTION between those who STAND BEFORE THE THRONE and have COME OUT of the great tribulation.

Yet the promise of God is that "IF ye suffer with Him ye shall also REIGN with Him"
We are "SEATED with Christ in heavenly places"

Thus you have some SEATED WITH Him on THRONES "reigning WITH Him.
and others STANDING before THE throne.

The logic of scripture therefore says that if you are not willing to SUFFER WITH Him you will NOT reign WITH Him.

Those who "suffer WITH Him " will be those by PRACTICE have learnt to discern good from evil." who have so identified WITH Christ that that which is POSITIONAL and PROMISED has become PRACTICAL AND FULLFILLED in thier lives. AND WHAT IS WILLED IN HEAVEN has been done on earth.
and "it is no longer they who live but CHRIST who lives IN them" and for THAT reason SUFFER WITH Him .
For they who LIVE Godly IN Christ Jesus WILL sufefr persecution" even from thier own bretheren.
For they "who say they are CHRIST"(annointed) that is to say in TRUTH that annointing that comes from God "shall be cast out of the synagogues"
For even as HER LORD WAS DESPISED AND REJECTED by His so too will the BRIDE by hers.
There is therefore a PRICE to pay and if we would seek to be in the BRIDE it must be paid.
Someone will say it has already been paid?
What then of that scripture thats says we must DAILY take up our cross and folow Him?
Now to some the cross has become a bed of roses and aplace of ease. but that is no cross at all it is soemthing you put around your neck.
But iN TRUTH it is a place of .........DEATH.
Where it can be said IN TRUTH and without fear of contradiction for me to live is CHRIST and to die is gain.

The BRIDE is and will be somehting ABOVE the NORM! OF CHRISTIAN living.
Not that others should NOT be 'above the norm' for PAUL says we are NOT TO BE "mere men"!

For what we call NORMAL in the light of scripture is SUBnormal.

We need to wake up as to what is ours IN Christ (see EPHESIANS)

in Christ
geralduk

[geralduk]

To the 'argument' as there MUST BE ..........ONE verse of scripture that clearly shows the truth of what is called the rapture.
One could reasonably 'argue' that there is NO "sound dcotrin" of scripture that is 'proved' or tested by ONE verse.
"For ALL scripturee is given..........................."
Thus...
"GOD who at sundry times and in DIVERS ways spoke by the prophets hath in these last days spoekn to us by His Son"
I see NOWHERE in the scriptures therefore any encouragement to rely or stand upon ONE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE for either the proof of a sound doctrin or to enable any one to have a "FULL assurance of faith in"
On the contrary God speaks in MANY PARTS and in diverse WAYS over ALL the scriptures to as it were 'give the full picture'
and as much then as we are able to do it the more conclusive and irefutable will be the truth of what we know.
For while you may be able to debate and 'argue' till you are in the grave to and froing over ONE VERSE OF SCRIPTURE.
YOU CANNOT (reasonably) so 'argue' and contend over ALL the scriptures.
For there is a saying 'one swallow does not make a summer' it can be so argued that ONE VERSE does not make a "sound doctrin"
Now a doctrin CAN be spoken of in one verse.
for instance "Without the sheddign of blood there is no remission of sin"
But it can only be 'PROVED' or 'TESTED' by ALL other scripture.
"The just shall live by faith"
That also is clear but that too cannot be proved save in the light of all other scripture.
So therefore no 'statement' is of itself 'proof'
Nor for that matter is a flat DENIAL of the same that the denial is true either!
But each must take thier statements and put them in CONTEXT of "ALL scripture"
Now you CAN therefore make take ONE verse which clearly speaks a truth and using that verse as a FOUNDATION build your'argument' using BIBLICAL 'argument' to do so.
THIS is the BEST way and is layed out in PAULS letters and is irefutable.
The TRINITY of God is another.
Some 'arguing ' that because the TRINITY is not mentioned ONCE in the scripturtes we must therefore deny its truth.
because the scriuptures do not conform to OUR thinking.
But the scriptures do NOT folow mens thinking and logic?
HOW CAN IT?
Seeing that is inspired of God.
and we knwo do we not that HIS thoughts are higher than our thoughts and His ways are not our ways.
It is both reasonable then and logical to say that the scriptures folow thier OWN LOGIC and REASONING to which WE must conform ours to.
Not the other way around
Therefore though the scriptures have thier own internal logic and reasoning that is of God and not mans nevertheless that reasoning and logic is NOT UNREASONABLE!or ILOGICAL!
In that way we are "transformed by the renewal of our minds by the Spirit fo God as HE ENLIGHTENS ".......our understanding".

Thus we have the trinity LAID out clearly throughout ALL the scriptures.
But not seen by some because they will INSIST that we but look at only ONE tree of a HUGE FOREST!
and because they cannot see the wood for the trees deny that which is plain for all to see if we would only go a litlte higher.


Therefore the truth not only of what is called the 'rapture' but MORE importantly the nature and the charcter of the BRIDE the timing and the unfolding of Gods Word can only be seen in the LIGHT of ALL scripture.
NOT jsut those parts which we like the most and fit our own thinking. and "SOOTHE our troubled minds"
We NEED to get TROUBLED!
SHAKEN UP
FOR if we do not we will not get ready for the coming of the Lord.

In Christ
gerald
uk

[geralduk]

Originally posted by granite1010

Because not all dispensationalists think the rapture is PRE-tribulational. Some think it's before the tribulation, others think it'll happen in the three and a half year mark, still others believe in a post-trib rapture.

Lord Jesus, beam me out of here...:D

if men would rather SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES and be WILLING to be LED by Him who has been promised" to LEAD us into all truth"then we WILL of a truth "come to a knowledge oif the truth"
But what happensd?
men learn from men about what MEN have thought and do not "see for themselves " WETHER IT BE TRUE.

MEN lean more upon thier own understanding rather than upon Him who has been promised.

Men believe that to be BORNagain is the be all and end all of our salvation.
but NOWHERE in the scriuptures are we LED to think such a thing.
But only by MEN.

LOOK in HEBREWS at the LIST of those things that PAUL says are but the BASICS of THE faith.
The MILK of the Word.
and you will find that those very things are ALL that are ever spoken of and debated and in most cases PREACHED!
Thus the church today ahs made the MILK the meat!
and says that is ALL there is!
and "we have need of nothing" more.
Well the church is being ROBBED and "made merchandise of"
By wolves in sheeps clothing.
In truth the Lord is OUTSIDE the church knocking on the door.
But the church has delivered herself from THAT problem by saying that" the message to the CHURCH....." IS REALY for the WORLD AND THE UNSAVED!
it is INCONCEIVABLE to it that the Lord can be OUTSIDE the church! LOCKED OUT!
AND is seekign entrance.
Buit in truth the CHURCH BODY has ears but hears not so the PROMISE is made to the INDIVIDUAL that "WHOSOEVER out of the body will hear and open the door to THEM will HE and the FATHER come and sup with.

We have today too LOW a vew of God.
No longer High AND LIFTED UP.
and so great that it needs but his TRAIN to fill the temple.

But have made God as if HE WAS LIKE US.
A MAN.
God is NOT a man.
and it is MAN who was made in HIS image not He in ours!
It is therefore for MAN to repent "in dust and ashes" and to "humble ourselves"
Thus we think that because we are BORNagain that makes us ELIGABLE ...IT DOES NOT!
iT qualifies us to RUN THE RACE!
The children of ISREAl who came out of EGYPT were ALL saved!
Yet they entered not into that for which "they had been aprehended FOR" WHY?
Paul says "because of unbelief"
But people have got it into thier heads that UNEBELIEF is an ABSCENCE of belief.
It is not.
Look again at the passage in EXODUS and you will find that they did NOT believe NOTHING but that they BELIEVED the WRONG MESSAGE!!!!!!!

and so failed to "win the prize" the promise. that for which they had been aprehended for.
For they did not aprehend it.in faith believing.


For get then mens thinking and search the scriptures and take waht MEN say and put them IN THE light of ALL scripture.

and LEAN not upon your own understanding but trust in the lord " who has promised "to LEAD US INTO all TRUTH"
fOR IS IT NOT WRITTEN "God is not willing that ANy should perish bu that ALL should come to the knowldge of the truth"
If then some might contend that we knwo the |Lord therefore we know the truth.#
Then I would 'answer' that if it took God 4000 years to SPEAK of CHRIST "in sundry times and indivers ways by the prophets"
Then I would say that being BORNagain is but "the BEGINNING of wisdom" NOT ITS END!

IN Christ
gerald UK

[bibleverse2]

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy."

-- 1 Peter 4:12-13

[Lighthouse]

bibleverse2-
Originally posted by lighthouse

Are you related to Squeaky and Squeakybro?

[keypurr]

bibleverse2- I like your style. Keep quoting the Bible and watch how some will back away from it.
God Bless