Why do Christians ??????

[elected4ever]

We see Christians commit adultery, murder stile and other morally unseemly things. I have heard it ask on numerous occasions. I have seen instances of it. It is a very discouraging fact to the church and to those who do such things.

I have heard excuse upon excuse and accusation upon accusation. Everyone trying to make sense of it all but no one outside of a very few know the truth of why this happens. The real reason of why this happens is that Christians are taught by the churches that they have no choice but to do those things. In short our churches teach a Christian how to fail. They teach a false and defeatist gospel.

Christians do those things because they believe they have no choice because they are still subject to the will of the flesh and they have to crucify the will of flesh by shear force of will and if they fail, they sin. Sin is such an abhorrent thing to a Christian that it turns into the most feared thing in life because they think and are taught that sin is inescapable. Oh, they give you a way out by telling you to repent of your sin and try like hell not to do it again. Its a merry-go-round. Its like going to jail getting out and going strait and before lone your right back in again. It is an insane life built on a pack of lies.

[Lighthouse]

Precisely!

[billwald]

You gots to be kidding. Christians do these things because they want to - after making a risk/benefit analysis.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by billwald

You gots to be kidding. Christians do these things because they want to - after making a risk/benefit analysis.

No, I'm not kidding. Have you ask yourself why do they wont too? The reason is that the focus is on the flesh and Christians are so wrapped up in self and control of self that the thing that they fear the most overtakes them. Its a never ending cycle I know . I was there once upon a time. The valleys are deep and the mountains are high and life is very unstable.

[1PeaceMaker]

Amen!

[logos_x]

Amen!

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by elected4ever

No, I'm not kidding. Have you ask yourself why do they wont too? The reason is that the focus is on the flesh and Christians are so wrapped up in self and control of self that the thing that they fear the most overtakes them. Its a never ending cycle I know . I was there once upon a time. The valleys are deep and the mountains are high and life is very unstable.

Regardless of your religious persuasion, you'd have to admit that humans are prone to desire.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by BillyBob

Regardless of your religious persuasion, you'd have to admit that humans are prone to desire.

I believe what e4e is saying, is that the majority of Christians tend to focus their attention on the desire of the flesh, rather than the desire of the spirit. When you do that, the only thing that you can produce are the deeds of the flesh. The power of sin is the Law, and those who look to the Law to please God are in fact slaves of sin. Most "Christians" are self-centered, rather than Christ centered.

"For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

"For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these"

"The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law."

[elected4ever]

In my freshman psychology class the professor made the following statement and I think it to be true. What ever you think to be true is true to you and what ever you believe about yourself you will act accordingly. The scripture puts it this way, "Whatsoever a man thinketh in his heart, so is he."

A hypochondriac is a person who thinks and believes he is sick regardless of the medical evidence to the contrary. The person acts in accordance with the belief. The evidence to the contrary does not matter.

A Christian who thinks he or she is a sinner will act according to that belief regardless of the evidence to the contrary. They will act consistent to what they believe. If they believe themselves to be a sinner they will act out the sinful acts regardless of the fact that they are dead to sin and alive to God. Their psychological make up will not allow them to act other wise.

[LightSon]

e4e makes some good points today.


Romans chapter 6

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God


We need to KNOW, RECKON, & YIELD.

[Zakath]

In my experience, Christians do the things you describe for pretty much the same reasons as non-Christians -- because they want to do them.

Most people who claim to "have no choice" are merely making excuses for doing what they desire to do at the moment.

[Lighthouse]

Zakath actually agrees with us?!:noway:

[Clete]

Originally posted by elected4ever
I have heard excuse upon excuse and accusation upon accusation. Everyone trying to make sense of it all but no one outside of a very few know the truth of why this happens. The real reason of why this happens is that Christians are taught by the churches that they have no choice but to do those things. In short our churches teach a Christian how to fail. They teach a false and defeatist gospel.

This is as good a description of Calvinism (i.e exhaustive predestination) as I've heard in a long while! :chuckle:

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

This is as good a description of Calvinism (i.e exhaustive predestination) as I've heard in a long while! :chuckle:

You wouldn't know a Calvinist if you triped over him.:doh:

[billwald]

The one provable claim of Reformed theology is that we are born with a sin nature. Sin effects all human activity including the Church.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by billwald

The one provable claim of Reformed theology is that we are born with a sin nature. Sin effects all human activity including the Church. Where do you get this stuff? :nono:

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by billwald

The one provable claim of Reformed theology is that we are born with a sin nature. Sin effects all human activity including the Church.

This is true. but we are born again with a righteous nature. There is no need to accuse the chrildren of God of sin. Thay are no longer subject to tha sin nature but are slaves of righteousness.Just believe who God has made you to be instead of carring around a lot of dead weight.

[Clete]

Originally posted by elected4ever

You wouldn't know a Calvinist if you triped over him.:doh:
So I keep getting told, go figure.
I've been a Calvinist all my life since the 3rd grade until something less than 10 years ago. So I think I know what a Calvinist is. Jim Hilston and now you claim that I don't know what Calvin taught but I neither believe that to be true nor relevent. Calvinsim today does, in fact, teach that all things that happen have been fatalistically predetermined since before time began. This includes such things as Christians commiting adultery, murder, theft and the rest.
Do you deny that such actions were predestined?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[BillyBob]

I love watching you guys fight! :chuckle:

[billwald]

>but we are born again with a righteous nature.

Who is we, Kemosabe? I have never met this righteous person.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

So I keep getting told, go figure.
I've been a Calvinist all my life since the 3rd grade until something less than 10 years ago. So I think I know what a Calvinist is. Jim Hilston and now you claim that I don't know what Calvin taught but I neither believe that to be true nor relevent. Calvinsim today does, in fact, teach that all things that happen have been fatalistically predetermined since before time began. This includes such things as Christians commiting adultery, murder, theft and the rest.
Do you deny that such actions were predestined?

Resting in Him,
Clete

Well to tell you the truth I don't know what he taught ether,, and no I do not believe in predesignated decisions that pigeon hole a person to be saved or unsaved. That choice is made by the person making it. I do how ever believe that if one is saved or lost one is still used by God to God's own purposes. Zakath will do the will of God even though he does not believe God exist.Zakath is still within reach of God though God is a present not within his reach. Only a fool says in his heart there is no God and Zakath holds that view.:ha:

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by billwald

>but we are born again with a righteous nature.

Who is we, Kemosabe? I have never met this righteous person.

If you are not a we , you are a they and what are you doing on this tread?:rolleyes:

[Delmar]

Originally posted by elected4ever

We see Christians commit adultery, murder stile and other morally unseemly things. I have heard it ask on numerous occasions. I have seen instances of it. It is a very discouraging fact to the church and to those who do such things.

I have heard excuse upon excuse and accusation upon accusation. Everyone trying to make sense of it all but no one outside of a very few know the truth of why this happens. The real reason of why this happens is that Christians are taught by the churches that they have no choice but to do those things. In short our churches teach a Christian how to fail. They teach a false and defeatist gospel.

Christians do those things because they believe they have no choice because they are still subject to the will of the flesh and they have to crucify the will of flesh by shear force of will and if they fail, they sin. Sin is such an abhorrent thing to a Christian that it turns into the most feared thing in life because they think and are taught that sin is inescapable. Oh, they give you a way out by telling you to repent of your sin and try like hell not to do it again. Its a merry-go-round. Its like going to jail getting out and going strait and before lone your right back in again. It is an insane life built on a pack of lies. Part of the problem also is that capitol crimes are not really capitol crimes anymore. What % of murderers get the swift death penalty? A man can commit adultery and not only not loose his life but for the most part not even loose his reputation. If you really believed in your heart of hearts that cheating on your spouse was as bad as murder and would bring as much shame on you and your family as murder does,most likley, you wouldn't do it!

[Sozo]

Civil penalties are designed to deter those who have no revelation of the love of God.

[Clete]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Well to tell you the truth I don't know what he taught ether,, and no I do not believe in predesignated decisions that pigeon hole a person to be saved or unsaved. That choice is made by the person making it. I do how ever believe that if one is saved or lost one is still used by God to God's own purposes. Zakath will do the will of God even though he does not believe God exist.Zakath is still within reach of God though God is a present not within his reach. Only a fool says in his heart there is no God and Zakath holds that view.:ha:

Would you say that a Christian that commits adultery is doing the will of God or is he rebelling against it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[LightSon]

BEWARE:
CALVINISM traps ahead.





Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

Would you say that a Christian that commits adultery is doing the will of God or is he rebelling against it?

Resting in Him,
Clete

:chuckle:

[elohiym]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Christians do those things because they believe they have no choice because they are still subject to the will of the flesh and they have to crucify the will of flesh by shear force of will and if they fail, they sin. Sin is such an abhorrent thing to a Christian that it turns into the most feared thing in life because they think and are taught that sin is inescapable. Oh, they give you a way out by telling you to repent of your sin and try like hell not to do it again.Apply what your saying to homosexuals. It seems that what you are saying goes out the window when it comes to homosexuality, at least around TOL with certain people.

For example...

Lighthouse, apply what E4E is saying to homosexuals. I've witnessed you communicating to a homosexual that her flesh will change after salvation. Has yours? You have also condemned homosexuals, claiming that if they never stop being a homosexual, they never knew Jesus. That seems to indicate that you expect a flesh transformation (read: behavior modification).

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by elohiym

Apply what your saying to homosexuals. It seems that what you are saying goes out the window when it comes to homosexuality, at least around TOL with certain people.

For example...

Lighthouse, apply what E4E is saying to homosexuals. I've witnessed you communicating to a homosexual that her flesh will change after salvation. Has yours? You have also condemned homosexuals, claiming that if they never stop being a homosexual, they never knew Jesus. That seems to indicate that you expect a flesh transformation (read: behavior modification).

Let me ask you this. If the homosexual believes that they are trapped into a diagnosed life style, what would you say is their chances of not ever being that anymore? How are they to change? Through self will for example.

If a person knows that they are not subject to the will of the flesh but are as righteous as God is because they are now born of God and a new nature resides within them.

Do you think the chances for success are elevated. If that person knows that he is never ever condemned again and his desire is for God, What chance has he to continue the life style of homosexuality as his knowledge and love for God grows? They have a completely different personality. The ways of the flesh cannot continue. The witness of the Spirit will be to great.

[billwald]

>Civil penalties are designed to deter those who have no revelation of the love of God.

Then we judge salvation status by works? Those who commit sins have no revelation of the love of God? And are not "elect?"

[Sozo]

Originally posted by billwald

>Civil penalties are designed to deter those who have no revelation of the love of God.

Then we judge salvation status by works? Those who commit sins have no revelation of the love of God? And are not "elect?" What? I didn't think anyone was as dense as godrulz, but you may have surpassed even him. :doh:

[SOTK]

Originally posted by elected4ever

No, I'm not kidding. Have you ask yourself why do they wont too? The reason is that the focus is on the flesh and Christians are so wrapped up in self and control of self that the thing that they fear the most overtakes them. Its a never ending cycle I know . I was there once upon a time. The valleys are deep and the mountains are high and life is very unstable.

Exactly! :up:

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by elohiym

Apply what your saying to homosexuals. It seems that what you are saying goes out the window when it comes to homosexuality, at least around TOL with certain people.

For example...

Lighthouse, apply what E4E is saying to homosexuals. I've witnessed you communicating to a homosexual that her flesh will change after salvation. Has yours? You have also condemned homosexuals, claiming that if they never stop being a homosexual, they never knew Jesus. That seems to indicate that you expect a flesh transformation (read: behavior modification).
I never told her her flesh would change. And I've never held that view. It is the spirit that changes: from dead to living.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by lighthouse

I never told her her flesh would change. And I've never held that view. It is the spirit that changes: from dead to living. I couldn't find your quote, but I'm not done looking. In the meantime, here is a choice quote of yours that basically supports my assertion:Originally posted by lighthouse

PeaceRaper-
I wasn't referring specifically to queers. I meant all people. And lust and pride are two very big walls. Unbelief keeps people from God, but lust and pride continue to keep them from Him, even after they believe. (Emphasis added by elohiym)Do you still lust (covet)? Is your pride gone?

[Granite]

Originally posted by elected4ever

We see Christians commit adultery, murder stile and other morally unseemly things. I have heard it ask on numerous occasions. I have seen instances of it. It is a very discouraging fact to the church and to those who do such things.

I have heard excuse upon excuse and accusation upon accusation. Everyone trying to make sense of it all but no one outside of a very few know the truth of why this happens. The real reason of why this happens is that Christians are taught by the churches that they have no choice but to do those things. In short our churches teach a Christian how to fail. They teach a false and defeatist gospel.

Christians do those things because they believe they have no choice because they are still subject to the will of the flesh and they have to crucify the will of flesh by shear force of will and if they fail, they sin. Sin is such an abhorrent thing to a Christian that it turns into the most feared thing in life because they think and are taught that sin is inescapable. Oh, they give you a way out by telling you to repent of your sin and try like hell not to do it again. Its a merry-go-round. Its like going to jail getting out and going strait and before lone your right back in again. It is an insane life built on a pack of lies.

Maybe it's part of that "only human" thing.:rolleyes:

[Dave Miller]

I love seeing this group of the most self righteous, self centered,
self justified group of Christians I've ever met talking about
not being self centered.

The answer is not in accepting sins of the flesh as part of our nature.
The answer is not in saying we are justified though we continue to
sin.

The answer is not to fool ourselves into thinking we are sinless
because we've accepted Christ and been born again. We're not
sinless while we're in the flesh.

The answer is to humbly accept the gift of salvation and humbly
acknowledge our weaknesses before God, and out of
gratitude and humility accept the blessings that the Holy Spirit
affords us and change our lives and behaviors accordingly.

Dave

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

...change our lives and behaviors accordingly.

Dave Unless of course you kill babies or engage in sexual activity with a member of the same gender.

:rolleyes:

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

I love seeing this group of the most self righteous, self centered,
self justified group of Christians I've ever met talking about
not being self centered.

The answer is not in accepting sins of the flesh as part of our nature.
The answer is not in saying we are justified though we continue to
sin.

The answer is not to fool ourselves into thinking we are sinless
because we've accepted Christ and been born again. We're not
sinless while we're in the flesh.

The answer is to humbly accept the gift of salvation and humbly
acknowledge our weaknesses before God, and out of
gratitude and humility accept the blessings that the Holy Spirit
affords us and change our lives and behaviors accordingly.

Dave

Its quite clear, Dave. You know nothing of what you are talking about.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Its quite clear, Dave. You know nothing of what you are talking about.

Keep patting each other on the back. You obviously have it all
figured out.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Keep patting each other on the back. You obviously have it all
figured out.

Most obviously, you don't:nono:

[Granite]

Thank you, God, that I'm not like these sinners, especially that nasty tax collector...

[Dave Miller]

God, I am not worthy, have mercy.

Amen.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

God, I am not worthy, have mercy.

Amen. Worthy of what???????:confused:

[Rolf Ernst]

As long as we are in the flesh, we must be on guard against the evil that still is with us; and no one can say they are free from it--"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (from John's first letter).

Nevertheless, Christ has already made a change in us. He has turned us from rebellion to being reconciled to Him; turned us from the pursuit of evils to obedience and the passion for greater obedience. Whereas before we considered ourselves worthy apart from Christ,, we now know that we aren't and never will be worthy in ourselves. Now we are cast upon Him. Like Paul, we have no confidence in ourselves. Now we rely solely upon the righteousness of Christ which He freely gives to all who by God's grace have truly turned away from any hope in themselves. He is "the LORD, our righteousness."

Those whose hope for their righteousness and acceptance before God is in their own goodness are trusting in (relying upon) themselves. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE TRULY SELF-RIGHTEOUS. They think they are good enough to stand before God on the basis of who they are and what they have done rather than trust in Christ alone for a gift of righteousness from Him that will make them acceptable to the Father; and the righteousness that He gives us is the very righteousness of Christ Himself. It is the same righteousness which enabled Him to overcome death; the same righteousness which so greatly pleased the Father that He not only raised Him from death, but received Him into His presence. That same righteousness already being given to us, we are confident before God and now come boldly before the throne of grace to find help in our time of need.

We are NOT self-righteous. We come before the Father not in our own name, not on the basis of who we are or what we have done, no! But we come before Him in Jesus name--on the basis of who HE is, on the basis of what HE has done. We prepare our hearts for prayer by hallowing HIS name--not OURS. THAT IS, WE COME BEFORE THE FATHER IN JESUS NAME. Having no confidence on the basis of who we are or what we have done, we come on the basis of His name; and "worthy is the Lamb!"

ALL those who have not learned to despise their own wretchedness, all those who have not by God's grace cast all their hope upon Christ alone are without the free gift of His righteousness and have hope only in themselves.

It pleased God from eternity to bless all who truly believe in Him with the gift of Christ's righteousness. No other means of salvation is available, and those who turn away from Christ are without that only means of approval before God. IT IS THE UNBELIEVERS WHO ARE SELF-RIGHTEOUS.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Worthy of what???????:confused:

Don't you know? Don't you read scripture? Of the
Kingdom! Of God's Grace! No one is worthy, no one
is good enough, no not one! We banter around the
word "imputed" as if it somehow magically changes us.
It doesn't. It is through the faith of Christ, through the
Grace of God, not our own merit, that we are saved.

Justification is imputed, or credited, to us through
Christ's doing, not our own! This is a gift, a treasure,
undeserved, unmerited, in fact it is Christ who is
justified, not us, we're just greatfully riding on Christ's
coat tails! Its like saying, I'm not the president, but
by his generosity, I'm allowed in the white house as
part of his staff. That doesn't make me the president,
it makes me a greatful servant...

:doh:

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

As long as we are in the flesh, we must be on guard against the evil that still is with us; and no one can say they are free from it--"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." (from John's first letter).

Nevertheless, Christ has already made a change in us. He has turned us from rebellion to being reconciled to Him. Whereas before we considered ourselves worthy, we now know that we aren't and never will be worthy in ourselves. Now we are cast upon Him. Like Paul, we have no confidence in ourselves. Now we rely solely upon the righteousness of Christ which He freely gives to all who have truly turned away from any hope in themselves. He is "the LORD, our righteousness."

Those whose hope for their righteousness and acceptance before God is in their own goodness are trusting in (relying upon) themselves. THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE TRULY SELF-RIGHTEOUS. They think they are good enough to stand before God on the basis of who they are and what they have done rather than trust in Christ alone for a gift of righteousness from Him that will make them acceptable to the Father; and the righteousness that He gives us is the very righteousness of Christ Himself. It is the same righteousness which enabled Him to overcome death; the same righteousness which so greatly pleased the Father that He not only raised Him from death, but received Him into His presence. That same righteousness already being given to us, we are confident before God and now come boldly before the throne of grace to find help in our time of need.

We are NOT self-righteous. We come before the Father not in our own name, not on the basis of who we are or what we have done, no! But we come before Him in Jesus name--on the basis of who HE is, on the basis of what HE has done. We prepare our hearts for prayer by hallowing HIS name--not OURS.

ALL those who have not learned to despise their own wretchedness, all those who have not cast all their hope upon Christ alone are without the free gift of His righteousness and have hope only in themselves.

It pleased God from eternity to bless all who truly believe in Him with the gift of Christ's righteousness. No other means of salvation is available, and those who turn away from Christ are without that only means of approval before God. IT IS THE UNBELIEVERS WHO ARE SELF-RIGHTEOUS.

I agree with everything you say until the last paragraph...

IT IS NOT UNBELIEVERS WHO ARE SELF RIGHTEOUSNESS.
RIGHTEOUSNESS DOESN'T HAVE ANY MEANING TO AN UNBELIEVER!

IT IS SMUG CHRISTIANS WHO THINK THEY HAVE NO SIN IN THEM
ANY LONGER AND ARE FREE TO JUDGE AND HURT AND DISOBEY
THE COMMANDMENT TO LOVE NEIGHBOR, AND DO SO IN THE NAME OF CHRIST
WHO ARE SELF RIGHTEOUS. THEY HAVE NO MERCY NOR
COMPASSION FOR THOSE WHO ARE LIVING IN THE VERY
CONDITIONS THEY LIVED IN BEFORE THEY DISCOVERED AND
ACCEPTED THE MOST PRESCIOUS GIFT EVER GIVEN, THE LOVE OF
GOD THROUGH CHRIST. THOSE WITHOUT MERCY AND
COMPASSION WILL BE TREATED WITH NO MERCY NOR COMPASSION,
FOR TRULEY WE SHALL RECEIVE TENFOLD WHAT WE GIVE
TO OTHERS IN THE NAME OF CHRIST.

[Rolf Ernst]

Well, Brother Dave--I don't think anyone who has not cast away all hope in themselves is a real Christian. At the same time, I cannot deny that some may have done that and may yet be short of consciously understanding fully how lost and undone they are in themselves.

I am convinced that we cannot make any real headway in truly bearing witness concerning Christ until we fully realize that no man needs Christ anymore than we do, but that to the man who needs Him most, to the man who is considered by many to be the lowest, most bitter dregs of earth, Christ is as powerful to save him as He is to save any other soul. After all, He reached out to us, didn't He?

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by elohiym

I couldn't find your quote, but I'm not done looking. In the meantime, here is a choice quote of yours that basically supports my assertion: Do you still lust (covet)? Is your pride gone?
Sometimes I still lust, but I am more focused on God now, knowing that I am free from sin, and so I am living more accordingly to that truth each day. What do I have to be proud of?

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Sometimes I still lust, but I am more focused on God now, knowing that I am free from sin, and so I am living more accordingly to that truth each day. What do I have to be proud of?

these idiots seem to think that just because Christ has cleansed us from all our sin and clothed us with his righteousness that we are now amune to the desires of the flesh. We are in the world so there fore we expereance the world as long as we are in it.

We are also not of the world so the things of the world do not belone to us. Not even our bodies. It is just temorary housing. We aint gotta like it but that is the way it is.

We are no longer of the flesh but of the Spirit. That spirit is perfect and righteous born of God and of His seed and does not sin. They seem to think that we are stell alive in the flesh and subject to it's death.

This flesh shall never see God but I will. It is my Father in heaven who says I am worthy and I could care less what anyone else thinks. I believe everyone is worthy. If they are not then why did Jesus give his life for everone so that everyone that comes to Him receives life and not death.

[Zakath]

It's just that you all stand around sounding so sanctimonious that it's nauseating...

From what I've seen of Christians, they're not all that different from non-Christians before they die...

Get over yourselves! :chuckle:

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Zakath

It's just that you all stand around sounding so sanctimonious that it's nauseating...

From what I've seen of Christians, they're not all that different from non-Christians before they die...

Get over yourselves! :chuckle:

Oh! you noticed. That 's good. and I am glad it makes you sick. You know as will as I that what is taught in churches to day is sanctimonious crap. That is why you turned from the faith to begin with.

Christ knew we could not do better. That is why Christ did not leave it in our hands. He furnished what we did not have to give. It is not my righteousness that saves me. It is the righteousness of God, Himself. I am not guilty of sin because God is not guilty of sin. There is no way I could ever hope to meet the standard of righteousness on my own. Yet these morons think that they can . Its stupidity Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Oh! you noticed. That 's good. and I am glad it makes you sick. You know as will as I that what is taught in churches to day is sanctimonious crap. That is why you turned from the faith to begin with.

Christ knew we could not do better. That is why Christ did not leave it in our hands. He furnished what we did not have to give. It is not my righteousness that saves me. It is the righteousness of God, Himself. I am not guilty of sin because God is not guilty of sin. There is no way I could ever hope to meet the standard of righteousness on my own. Yet these morons think that they can . Its stupidity Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy.
Originally posted by Zakath

...ummm... duhhh... what did I say? :zakath:

:chuckle:

[logos_x]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Oh! you noticed. That 's good. and I am glad it makes you sick. You know as will as I that what is taught in churches to day is sanctimonious crap. That is why you turned from the faith to begin with.

Christ knew we could not do better. That is why Christ did not leave it in our hands. He furnished what we did not have to give. It is not my righteousness that saves me. It is the righteousness of God, Himself. I am not guilty of sin because God is not guilty of sin. There is no way I could ever hope to meet the standard of righteousness on my own. Yet these morons think that they can . Its stupidity Thank you for pointing out the hypocrisy.

:bow:

Good smackin'

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by elected4ever

these idiots seem to think that just because Christ has cleansed us from all our sin and clothed us with his righteousness that we are now amune to the desires of the flesh. We are in the world so there fore we expereance the world as long as we are in it.

We are also not of the world so the things of the world do not belone to us. Not even our bodies. It is just temorary housing. We aint gotta like it but that is the way it is.

We are no longer of the flesh but of the Spirit. That spirit is perfect and righteous born of God and of His seed and does not sin. They seem to think that we are stell alive in the flesh and subject to it's death.

This flesh shall never see God but I will. It is my Father in heaven who says I am worthy and I could care less what anyone else thinks. I believe everyone is worthy. If they are not then why did Jesus give his life for everone so that everyone that comes to Him receives life and not death.
God bless you, e4e.:thumb:

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Well, Brother Dave--I don't think anyone who has not cast away all hope in themselves is a real Christian. At the same time, I cannot deny that some may have done that and may yet be short of consciously understanding fully how lost and undone they are in themselves.

I am convinced that we cannot make any real headway in truly bearing witness concerning Christ until we fully realize that no man needs Christ anymore than we do, but that to the man who needs Him most, to the man who is considered by many to be the lowest, most bitter dregs of earth, Christ is as powerful to save him as He is to save any other soul. After all, He reached out to us, didn't He?

amen bro.

Sorry about the shouting caps, this "I'm incapable of sin" attitude
has been bugging me lately...

And e4e, trying to draw some artificial lines between
sinning in the flesh and remaining pure in spirit doesn't wash
either. The spirit is the motivation, the life, the essence of
a person. The flesh just obeys what the spirit directs it to do.

Besides, I'm not sure this schizophrenic spirit and flesh view
is altogether healthy. What do you think, Zak?

Dve
Dave

(My corrupted flesh misspelled my signature, but my pure Spirit
knows how to spell correctly.)

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Besides, I'm not sure this schizophrenic spirit and flesh view
is altogether healthy. What do you think, Zak?

Dave
The most natural thing for a godless wolf in sheep's clothing to do, is to run back to the pack asking for advice. How very natural of you, Dave.The flesh just obeys what the spirit directs it to do. In your case, what a godless atheist directs you to do.e4e, trying to draw some artificial lines between sinning in the flesh and remaining pure in spirit doesn't wash either

"And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness."

"So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which indwells me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh"

"...in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"

[Granite]

...and Paul talks about how wretched he is, so you can quote contradictory scripture all day long.

Hope you had a good turkey day, Sozo.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

...and Paul talks about how wretched he is, so you can quote contradictory scripture all day long.

Was Paul not set free from his wretchedness?

Only one whose mind is dead to God would see a contradiction.

[Dave Miller]

Paul's theology created some real problems in those churches,
and he spent alot of energy trying to correct those problems later
on in his ministry. The problem is that seperating spirit and flesh
is like seperating conscience from action. His parishioners were
acting sinfully without conscience, and feeling justified in doing so,
just like here on TOL.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Paul's theology created some real problems in those churches,
and he spent a lot of energy trying to correct those problems later
on in his ministry. The problem is that separating spirit and flesh
is like separating conscience from action. His parishioners were
acting sinfully without conscience, and feeling justified in doing so,
just like here on TOL. :shocked:

Lier. lier pants on fire. Paul only tough one gospel and never wavered.:doh:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Paul's theology created some real problems in those churches,
and he spent alot of energy trying to correct those problems later
on in his ministry. Paul's theology?

You're an idiot!

"For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ."

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Sozo

Paul's theology?

You're an idiot!

"For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." :up: :bannana: :bannana: :bannana: :bannana: :bannana: :bannana: :bannana: :bannana: :bannana: :bannana: :bannana:

[servent101]

Dave MillerHis parishioners were
acting sinfully without conscience, and feeling justified in doing so,

If you take what Paul wrote, and try too - and I mean really try too, you can take it out of context, and surmise what you just said... but in the Truth, in the light of the sinful nature of man - what Paul said is accurate, and the person who is trying to live a life worthy of the calling, can be blessed by Paul's Letters on the subject of as you put it seperating spirit and flesh is like seperating conscience from action.

We all sin and fall short - it is the intention of Paul to assure us to keep up the good fight, even though at times we may fail, we need to keep our wits about us, and keep our Faith in the Lord, that He is able to keep that which we have commited to Him, until that day.

There will always be those who do not, will not and never have tried to walk the Christian life, who will take what Paul says, and twist it out of context - but the sincere Christian who is truely seeking to do the Lord's will - they understand exactly what Paul is getting at.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by servent101

Dave Miller

If you take what Paul wrote, and try too - and I mean really try too, you can take it out of context, and surmise what you just said... but in the Truth, in the light of the sinful nature of man - what Paul said is accurate, and the person who is trying to live a life worthy of the calling, can be blessed by Paul's Letters on the subject of as you put it

We all sin and fall short - it is the intention of Paul to assure us to keep up the good fight, even though at times we may fail, we need to keep our wits about us, and keep our Faith in the Lord, that He is able to keep that which we have commited to Him, until that day.

There will always be those who do not, will not and never have tried to walk the Christian life, who will take what Paul says, and twist it out of context - but the sincere Christian who is truely seeking to do the Lord's will - they understand exactly what Paul is getting at.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

Not out of context at all. What where they doing in Corinth?
Sueing each other in civil court, pursuing incestuous relationships,
abusing the Lord's Supper, its all there...

I agree that Paul's intentions were pure and Divinely inspired,
but words are words, and easily mis-interpreted, and they
were, so Paul later had to write and say that he never intended
that they ignore or disobey the law, or sin openly. This is not
what he meant by His preaching on freedom.

djm

[Rolf Ernst]

Key difference between true believers and unbelievers is their attitude concerning sin. Real Christians strive to be more like Christ even though they still have to wage war against the flesh.

Unbelievers do not wage war against sin. When they are engaged in rebellion against God's precepts, they feel quite at home--like a fish swimming in a large pond. They take great delight in ridiculing Christ, His people, and His word.

When a Christian's foot slips, he/she is not comfortable.The pleasures of sin make them miserable and it isn't long before they return to God in repentance. Though the wicked rejoice over a Christians having faltered in their pursuit of God, the spirit of the real Christian at that time is, in the words of the Psalmist, "Rejoice not over me, oh my enemy! When I fall, I will arise. When I sit in darkness, the Lord will be a light to me." Or, as David said in confessing His sin concerning Bathsheba, "Create in me a clean heart, Oh God, and renew a right spirit within me. Then will I teach transgressors thy ways and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

So the differences between Christians (REAL Christians) and unbelievers is vast. The unbeliever has never once repented, never once sorrowed over failures, but believers are never comfortable in sin.

The marks of both are seen in their reaction to the failures of others. The wicked rejoice in the sins of others--"who knowing the judgement of God that those who do such things are worthy of death not only do the same, but rejoice in those who do them." ; but Christians sorrow over any missteps and pray for a quick recovery.

Sum the difference up with Scripture: "Love does NOT rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth."

A Christian may slip and fall into a mud puddle, but he doesn't wallow in it delightfully. He is regretful and gets up.

[Rolf Ernst]

We are told to confess our faults to one another and to not consider ourselves better than another.

Yet there are some who act as if butter would not melt in their mouth. We need to be honest with God, with ourselves, and with others. There has been so much false piety, however, that when a brother or sister stumbles they are shunned rather than encouraged to get up and continue with us.

How many there have been who have stumbled and then been forever shunned, as if there could be no such thing as repentence and restoration. THAT IS PLAYING INTO SATAN'S HANDS!! That is as satan and his children would have it. Nevertheless, the Christian does always arise.

How sad then that they are afterward treated as if he/she is a reprobate! How contrary to the Psalmist spirit--"create in me a clean heart, oh God and restore a right spiritwithin me THEN WILL I TEACH TRANSGRESSORS YOUR WAYS AND SINNERS SHALL BE CONVERTED TO YOU."

But so many so-called Christians refuse to do anything more than shun them. Strange! David wrote most of his Psalms after he had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah slain; but this modern false, priggish piety results in genuine Christians who have just learned a very valuable lesson about repentance, restoration, and perseverance from being a lesson and an example to others of God's power to reclaim His poor fallen and use them for His glory just as He used David. How that plays into the hands of satan and his children!!

The unbeliever is gleeful over sin; especially the sin of a believer. They will not cease rejoicing over it. Love does not rejoice in iniquity, but those who know not Christ know not love and forever they will roll the failings of others over their tongue, gleefully, rejoicing in sin, detailing every aspect of which they know anything to others, spreading the news of it far and wide, making every effort to utterly destroy reputations beyond repair. Their father the devil is called the destroyer, the adversary and the accuser of the brethren, and just as Jesus said, they are of their father the devil and the works of their father they will do!

Long after the Christian has righted his/her course and gone on with the Lord, having learned from their experience, now having a deeper hatred of sin and even though they now walk more stedfastly than ever before, the unbeliever will still be rejoicing in the past sin--a sin the believer has left far behind is still the unbeliever's delight.

And every Christian who refuses to recognize God's work of restoration is aiding the enemies of Christ!!!!!!!!!

[Sozo]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Amen, Rolf! :noway:

[1PeaceMaker]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Amen, Rolf! Come to Christ, lighthouse.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

We are told to confess our faults to one another and to not consider ourselves better than another.

Yet there are some who act as if butter would not melt in their mouth. We need to be honest with God, with ourselves, and with others. There has been so much false piety, however, that when a brother or sister stumbles they are shunned rather than encouraged to get up and continue with us.

How many there have been who have stumbled and then been forever shunned, as if there could be no such thing as repentence and restoration. THAT IS PLAYING INTO SATAN'S HANDS!! That is as satan and his children would have it. Nevertheless, the Christian does always arise.

How sad then that they are afterward treated as if he/she is a reprobate! How contrary to the Psalmist spirit--"create in me a clean heart, oh God and restore a right spiritwithin me THEN WILL I TEACH TRANSGRESSORS YOUR WAYS AND SINNERS SHALL BE CONVERTED TO YOU."

But so many so-called Christians refuse to do anything more than shun them. Strange! David wrote most of his Psalms after he had committed adultery with Bathsheba and had Uriah slain; but this modern false, priggish piety results in genuine Christians who have just learned a very valuable lesson about repentance, restoration, and perseverance from being a lesson and an example to others of God's power to reclaim His poor fallen and use them for His glory just as He used David. How that plays into the hands of satan and his children!!

The unbeliever is gleeful over sin; especially the sin of a believer. They will not cease rejoicing over it. Love does not rejoice in iniquity, but those who know not Christ know not love and forever they will roll the failings of others over their tongue, gleefully, rejoicing in sin, detailing every aspect of which they know anything to others, spreading the news of it far and wide, making every effort to utterly destroy reputations beyond repair. Their father the devil is called the destroyer, the adversary and the accuser of the brethren, and just as Jesus said, they are of their father the devil and the works of their father they will do!

Long after the Christian has righted his/her course and gone on with the Lord, having learned from their experience, now having a deeper hatred of sin and even though they now walk more stedfastly than ever before, the unbeliever will still be rejoicing in the past sin--a sin the believer has left far behind is still the unbeliever's delight.

And every Christian who refuses to recognize God's work of restoration is aiding the enemies of Christ!!!!!!!!!

First of all I am not better than anyone but I will not reduce God's standard just to look acceptable to you or anyone else. What I have is avalable to everone that will believe.

I act like the child of God that I am and do not subscribe to the acts of Satan.The children of God do not sin because the seed of God is in them and they cannot sin. If you sin, you are of the devil because the devil sinned from the beginning. You wont to clam sin in your life then you have never left your father the devil. My Father made me righteous, not a sinner so sick your sin and negativity where the sun don't shine.

[billwald]

Creating doctrine from Paul's writings is like creating doctrine from one side of a telephone conversation.

Either Paul is misinterpreted or he isn't as smart as people think he is. Consider the mess that is called "Galatians."

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by billwald

Creating doctrine from Paul's writings is like creating doctrine from one side of a telephone conversation.

Either Paul is misinterpreted or he isn't as smart as people think he is. Consider the mess that is called "Galatians."

Paul's letter to the Galations is one of the easyest books to understand when you know the truth. Evidently you don't know the truth.

[Rolf Ernst]

elected4ever--John's statement that those who are born of God do not commit sin must be balanced with another statement he made: "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." That balance is found in the real meaning of his statement that the child of god "cannot sin," which meaning is that he cannot CONTINUE in sin. And that is exactly what I, and others, have been saying.

If you reject that then you must explain what John meant when he said, "If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves." and while you are at it, tell us what he meant when he said, "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us..." What did the apostle mean when he said, "in many things we all offend"? Do you think faults are not sins? What is the meaning of "confess your faults one to another?"

According to what you just said, I guess you don't believe you are in need of such forgiveness. That puts you in with the scribes and pharisees, you know, and excludes you from need of the great physician who said, "they that are whole do not need a physician, but those that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

It also, by your own self-appoint, elevates you above the apostle Paul who said, "not that I have attained or am already perfect..."

Your understanding of scripture is very contrary to the testimony of both life and scripture.

[Granite]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Paul's letter to the Galations is one of the easyest books to understand when you know the truth. Evidently you don't know the truth.

:ha:

[elected4ever]

Rolf Ernst elected4ever--John's statement that those who are born of God do not commit sin must be balanced with another statement he made: "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." That balance is found in the real meaning of his statement that the child of god "cannot sin," which meaning is that he cannot CONTINUE in sin. And that is exactly what I, and others, have been saying.

Both statements are true and are stand alone statements. No balance required. I do not compromise one truth or make adjustments to make ether statement 100% correct. You have to do that in order to maintain your false theology. It lets you maintain your sin and make excuses to God for not believing Him. Then and others like you maintain this phony piety so you will look humble or something. Your sickening to me as well as to my Father in heaven. You are ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of the truth. You have a form of the Gospel but you deny it's power.

[Sozo]

Rolf is a self-righteous Christ hating godless perverted dog

*Rolf* Rolf*
:dog:


:D

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Sozo

Rolf is a self-righteous Christ hating godless perverted dog

*Rolf* Rolf*
:dog:


:D

So sayeth the sinless man.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

So sayeth the sinless man.

You got it, fag loving, baby hating, wolf in sheep's clothing!

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Sozo

You got it, fag loving, baby hating, wolf in sheep's clothing!

I love babies, too.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Sozo

:noway:
I must have missed something he said, or misunderstood him. I'm about to read a post, where he sounds like godrulz, so I will probably retract what I said.

1PeaceMaker-
You have no clue who Christ is. How dare bid me to come to Him! I am in Him, and you are no one to judge my standing!

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

elected4ever--John's statement that those who are born of God do not commit sin must be balanced with another statement he made: "if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us." That balance is found in the real meaning of his statement that the child of god "cannot sin," which meaning is that he cannot CONTINUE in sin. And that is exactly what I, and others, have been saying.
I want in on this.

If you reject that then you must explain what John meant when he said, "If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves." and while you are at it, tell us what he meant when he said, "if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us..." What did the apostle mean when he said, "in many things we all offend"? Do you think faults are not sins? What is the meaning of "confess your faults one to another?"
John meant that we are not like Christ, in that we have never sinned. That is all he meant. But Christ cleanses us of sin. He cleanses us from all unrightoeusness.

Faults are not sins. The Biblical definition of sin is not fault. It is transgression of the law. And Paul says, "...where there is no law, there is no sin." And he also wrote that we are not under the law, we are under grace. So Christians do not transgress the law, because there is no law for us to transgress. So, by the definition of sin, we do not sin. And it is not wrong to confess your faults to one another. John is telling us not to be hypocrites. He is telling us to be honest with each other. That is all. Nothing more.

According to what you just said, I guess you don't believe you are in need of such forgiveness. That puts you in with the scribes and pharisees, you know, and excludes you from need of the great physician who said, "they that are whole do not need a physician, but those that are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
You obviously missed something. Christians have forgiveness.

It also, by your own self-appoint, elevates you above the apostle Paul who said, "not that I have attained or am already perfect..."
He said he was not perfect in the flesh. But Christ had already made him perfect, in spirit.

Your understanding of scripture is very contrary to the testimony of both life and scripture.
Wrong. Your life is contrary to scripture. As are most other lives.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

I love babies, too.
Is THAT why you're pro-abortion?:doh:

You ignorant twit!

[Lighthouse]

I almost forgot.

Rolf-
I retract my amen.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Is THAT why you're pro-abortion?:doh:

You ignorant twit!

You must have me mixed up with some God hating liberal.

I'm a God loving, baby loving, people loving liberal. :)

Dave

[Granite]

And it all melts down from here.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by granite1010

And it all melts down from here.

That's just my nachos in the microwave...

[1PeaceMaker]

*

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

You must have me mixed up with some God hating liberal.

I'm a God loving, baby loving, people loving liberal. :)

Dave
So, what did Sozo mean when he called you baby-hating?

P.S.
You're still a God-hating liberal.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by lighthouse

So, what did Sozo mean when he called you baby-hating?

He thinks it is fine for the spirit to tell the flesh to chop up babies.

[Lighthouse]

Oh. Okay.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

You must have me mixed up with some God hating liberal.

I'm a God loving, baby loving, people loving liberal. :)

Dave

There ain't no such thing in existence.:nono: :freak:

[Lighthouse]

Like I said, Dave is a God-hating liberal.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by elected4ever

There ain't no such thing in existence.:nono: :freak: Such a narrow view of the universe your religion gives you... ;)

[Granite]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

That's just my nachos in the microwave...

Ah. Thought I smelled something.

Too bad that the word "liberal" has gotten the bad rap that it has, considering the original (read: pre-1968) definition of the word was on its way to noble. Bummer. One more case of the English language getting mangled.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by granite1010

Ah. Thought I smelled something.

Too bad that the word "liberal" has gotten the bad rap that it has, considering the original (read: pre-1968) definition of the word was on its way to noble. Bummer. One more case of the English language getting mangled.

The pre-1968 idea lost its foothold because liberals got so
involved in changing the world they forgot that its by the
power of Christ, not our own, that changes occur.

We love because God calls us to love, we serve others because
through serving others, we serve God. When we lose sight
of that, we lose purpose, we lose faith, we lose hope.

Dave

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

The pre-1968 idea lost its foothold because liberals got so
involved in changing the world they forgot that its by the
power of Christ, not our own, that changes occur.

We love because God calls us to love, we serve others because
through serving others, we serve God. When we lose sight
of that, we lose purpose, we lose faith, we lose hope.

Dave

Liberals believe in Robin Hood, not Christ. They steal from those who have and give to those who have not. It is not the governments job to redistribute wealth. It is the individuals right and responsibility to care for the poor. Theft is not a Christian principle.

Democracy is not a Christian principle. Rule of law is. Rule of law even applies to heads of state. Those laws are to reflect the highest moral values. Not murder and theft. The liberals path is the path to self destruction for a a country.

Liberalism is now actually seen for the decadence that it actually is.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Liberals believe in Robin Hood, not Christ. They steal from those who have and give to those who have not. It is not the governments job to redistribute wealth. It is the individuals right and responsibility to care for the poor. Theft is not a Christian principle.
Not to decry your point, but the story of Robin Hood is not actually one of theft. It is the story of a man who took back what had been stolen from people, and gave it back to them.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

Ah. Thought I smelled something.

Too bad that the word "liberal" has gotten the bad rap that it has, considering the original (read: pre-1968) definition of the word was on its way to noble. Bummer. One more case of the English language getting mangled.
I shall no longer call democrats 'liberals', based on Isaiah 32:5.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Not to decry your point, but the story of Robin Hood is not actually one of theft. It is the story of a man who took back what had been stolen from people, and gave it back to them.

Then according to you it is OK to rob the tax collector and rob wealthy people who has gotten gains by hard work and skill or by some means that we just think is fraudulent because they have more that we do; to give to those who have not earned the wages? Is not the laborer worth his hire?

Doesn't this government rob those who earned the wages and buys the favor of the poor to sustain itself. Their is no legal right in the constitution for the government to do that. The 16th amendment does not give the government the authority to attach the wages of the common man.

The 16th amendment attachés the income of the state without apportionment. The state income is not the earned wages of the common man. It is the income a state has through taxes and levies.

Hummmmm, Maybe your right. The liberals don't even rise to the level of Robin Hood. I was Thinking that the liberal thought that the government was Robin Hood. Liberals are just common thieves and nothing more.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by lighthouse

I shall no longer call democrats 'liberals', based on Isaiah 32:5.

Not the same kind of liberal. That kind of liberal gives of his own treasure to help the needy. He does not take the wealth of others. According to that a conservative is actually a liberal in its truest sense.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Liberals believe in Robin Hood, not Christ. They steal from those who have and give to those who have not. It is not the governments job to redistribute wealth. It is the individuals right and responsibility to care for the poor.



Yep!!!

:thumb:

[Frank Ernest]

Good thoughts, elected4ever!
Jesus was the conservative. The Pharisees and Scribes were the lie-berals.

Conservatives want to preserve the good. Lie-berals want "change", "new direction", (fill in your favorite lie-beral catch-phrase) to suit their neverending quest for money and power.

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Good thoughts, elected4ever!
Jesus was the conservative. The Pharisees and Scribes were the lie-berals.

Conservatives want to preserve the good. Lie-berals want "change", "new direction", (fill in your favorite lie-beral catch-phrase) to suit their neverending quest for money and power.

Thank you :e4e:

[Frank Ernest]

:Brandon:
I shall no longer call democrats 'liberals', based on Isaiah 32:5.

FrankiE:
:darwinsm: I like that one!

[Granite]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Good thoughts, elected4ever!
Jesus was the conservative. The Pharisees and Scribes were the lie-berals.

Conservatives want to preserve the good. Lie-berals want "change", "new direction", (fill in your favorite lie-beral catch-phrase) to suit their neverending quest for money and power.

Politically the scribes and Pharisees were quite conservative, in that they didn't want to rock the boat and just wanted to preserve the status quo...

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by granite1010

Politically the scribes and Pharisees were quite conservative, in that they didn't want to rock the boat and just wanted to preserve the status quo...

Politically the present day liberals are the ones seeking the status quo of societal moral decadence and the conservatives are the ones rocking the boat to return to good moral government. When democracy rules, it leads to moral decay. When rule of law prevails only the evil suffers at the hands of the state. Not the innocent.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Good thoughts, elected4ever!
Jesus was the conservative. The Pharisees and Scribes were the lie-berals.

Conservatives want to preserve the good. Lie-berals want "change", "new direction", (fill in your favorite lie-beral catch-phrase) to suit their neverending quest for money and power.

What a crock! Jesus a conservative? What was the status
quo? Who came to change things? Duh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Love your enemies, do good to those that would harm you"
Yeah, these are conservative words. DuuuuuuuuuuuHHHHH!

What bible do you read anyway?

I can't wait for Christ to come. The ultimate truth smack, y'all
are going to have a big surprize.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Politically the present day liberals are the ones seeking the status quo of societal moral decadence and the conservatives are the ones rocking the boat to return to good moral government. When democracy rules, it leads to moral decay. When rule of law prevails only the evil suffers at the hands of the state. Not the innocent.

Yeah, Hitler had it right. Great post.

[Rolf Ernst]

Lighthouse--from your poist #79, I think maybe we have been talking past one another but I am not sure. Rather than disagreeing, maybe we are not on the samepage

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Good thoughts, elected4ever!
Jesus was the conservative. The Pharisees and Scribes were the lie-berals.

Conservatives want to preserve the good. Lie-berals want "change", "new direction", (fill in your favorite lie-beral catch-phrase) to suit their neverending quest for money and power.

Frank, you got it right. The Pharisees and Scribes are the ones who changed the law to suit themselves the way liberals do to day. Jesus came teaching and preaching the true law. Pharisees and Scribes acted like the liberals of today. Not the conservatives.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Frank, you got it right. The Pharisees and Scribes are the ones who changed the law to suit themselves the way liberals do to day. Jesus came teaching and preaching the true law. Pharisees and Scribes acted like the liberals of today. Not the conservatives.

The Pharisees and Scribes didn't change any laws, they
encouraged people to live by them literally, they were
literalists.

Jesus said to love first, and in doing so the law is fulfilled.
He said care about the well being of others, even your
enemies! Read your bible!!!!

Liberal hearts have been in the right place, we place the
well being of others before ourselves. But, I agree that
liberal methods and motivations have been messed up
over the past few decades.

[Dave Miller]

I also have to admit, liberals have also become elitists, and that
just plain sucks. The idea of caring for others has turned into
"taking care of others," in a condescending sense, not in a
compassionate sense.

But all politicians are elitists, liberal and conservative, so we're not
alone.

How about you conservatives? Any inherent flaws in your
politics or theology that you'd care to 'fess up to?

[elected4ever]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

The Pharisees and Scribes didn't change any laws, they
encouraged people to live by them literally, they were
literalists.

Jesus said to love first, and in doing so the law is fulfilled.
He said care about the well being of others, even your
enemies! Read your bible!!!!

Liberal hearts have been in the right place, we place the
well being of others before ourselves. But, I agree that
liberal methods and motivations have been messed up
over the past few decades.

Not so. They added to the law to make it say what it didn't say. Today the liberal does the exact same thing. There is no law that can be pasted to make someone care for others and the state has no constitutional authority to spend taxpayers money on the welfare of others. That makes dependents not a productive worker. That is an evil thing to do. It fosters generation after generation of dependence. This will bankrupt a country. A government cannot sustain the higher taxes required as the work force is reduced and the the dependent population gets larger. It also robs a person of his dignity. The idea is to make a person that is productive in society. The liberal socialist agenda does just the opposite. As it stands today it will take a couple of generations to straighten out the mess the liberals have gotten us into. I could say much more but that is enough for now.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Then according to you it is OK to rob the tax collector and rob wealthy people who has gotten gains by hard work and skill or by some means that we just think is fraudulent because they have more that we do; to give to those who have not earned the wages? Is not the laborer worth his hire?
It is not okay to do that. The story of Robin Hood, the one that everybody knows, is that the king was away, and his brother, the prince, took more taxes than he was supposed to. The prince stole from the people. He did not earn that money. The people did.

I completely agree with the point you made, e4e. It was a brilliant point.

Doesn't this government rob those who earned the wages and buys the favor of the poor to sustain itself. Their is no legal right in the constitution for the government to do that. The 16th amendment does not give the government the authority to attach the wages of the common man.
I agree. And I think we should vote, so that something is done about it.

The 16th amendment attachés the income of the state without apportionment. The state income is not the earned wages of the common man. It is the income a state has through taxes and levies.
Maybe we should take the line about reshaping the government, from the Declaration of Independence, a little more actively.

Hummmmm, Maybe your right. The liberals don't even rise to the level of Robin Hood. I was Thinking that the liberal thought that the government was Robin Hood. Liberals are just common thieves and nothing more.
Exactly.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Not the same kind of liberal. That kind of liberal gives of his own treasure to help the needy. He does not take the wealth of others. According to that a conservative is actually a liberal in its truest sense.
I know. I just thought it was funny.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Lighthouse--from your poist #79, I think maybe we have been talking past one another but I am not sure. Rather than disagreeing, maybe we are not on the samepage
How so? Were you unaware of what we meant? Was I unaware of what you meant?

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by elected4ever

Not so. They added to the law to make it say what it didn't say.

Which law? Do you have an example? I'm seriously interested.

Dave

[elected4ever]

Personal retribution was a common trade mark of the Pharisees and Scribes . Eye for an eye. Jesus had to correct them. Jesus corrected them on the law of the Sabbath.

[elected4ever]

Its not hat the Pharisees and Scribes changed the law they just redefined it like the liberals do to the constitution.

[Dave Miller]

"Eye for an eye" is pretty straight forward, easily taken literally, and
that's what the Pharisees did. Jesus corrected them
by saying "don't do that, love instead." The liberal Jesus redefined,
reinterpreted the law...

You got it backwards.

[elected4ever]

Eye for an eye has never been part of the law.

[Frank Ernest]

Dave Miller:
The Pharisees and Scribes didn't change any laws, they
encouraged people to live by them literally, they were
literalists.

FrankiE:
Yes they did.
Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
Mat 15:4 For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
Mat 15:5 But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me;
Mat 15:6 And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Dave Miller:
Jesus said to love first, and in doing so the law is fulfilled.
He said care about the well being of others, even your
enemies! Read your bible!!!!

FrankiE:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Jesus did not say the law was fulfilled thereby. He said the law was derived from the two great commandments.

Dave Miller:
Liberal hearts have been in the right place, we place the
well being of others before ourselves. But, I agree that
liberal methods and motivations have been messed up
over the past few decades.

FrankiE:
Good intentions don't cut it, not in this life nor in the next.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[Frank Ernest]

:e4e:
Eye for an eye has never been part of the law.

FrankiE:
Exo 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
Exo 21:23 And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
Exo 21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
Exo 21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

[Crow]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

The Pharisees and Scribes didn't change any laws, they
encouraged people to live by them literally, they were
literalists.


Let me give you modern examples of how the Pharisees and Scribes changed the Law.

The scriptures told the Jews to observe the Sabbath. It was supposed to be a day of rest.

Now, here is what happens when one is zealous to keep the Law, as Orthodox Jews are today. They are probably as close to the Pharisees of Christ's time in their zeal for the Law as you can find.

I was working in a primarily Jewish nursing home about 20 years ago as an agency nurse. It was a Friday night. Some of the bathrooms I entered had stacks of toilet paper ripped into sheets on the backs of the toilet tanks, and not a roll to be found on the roll holder.

I went and got a roll of toilet paper for each bathroom I found lacking a roll and threw the little stacks of toilet paper out.

Soon the wails started.

You see, the Orthodox Jews have added onto the Law until they have laws upon laws upon laws proliferating like a cancer. A day of rest has been perverted by those zealous for the Law into do no work whatsoever, even to the point that you transgress by tearing off a sheet of toilet paper to wipe your .........self. Why the tearing is work but the actual wiping is not is beyond me--I guess you have to be zealous for the Law to "get it."

Turning a light off and on is work, but putting on your shoes is not. Driving a car is work, but hoofing it to shul, which is actually more work, is not work. Riding an elevator is work because electricity is used (apparantly electricity is expected to keep the Sabbath) but walking up and down the stairs is not work. Opening a door is work, but walking a block to get a gentile to open it for you is not. Writing is work, but dictation is not work if you are dictating. If you are writing it down, it is. On and on and on ad absurdum. "Work" has been defined and argued over and prescribed and proscribed and regulated unto the "Nth" degree.

Can you picture why Christ was so frustrated with the Pharasees? Look at what he said about them--


23"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

The Pharisees did not have horns growing out of their heads, but they were so tied up with the Law that they couldn't see anything but the Law. Think of some of the things Christ called them, like "blind guides." Now picture people so zealous for the Law that they tried to legislate every nit picking aspect of existance and you'll get the Pharisees.

The Law said what it said. And the Pharisees were so zealous for it they messed around with it until it said even more. And more. And more. They complained when Christ healed a man on the Sabbath. There was no Law against that, save the ones the Pharisees "interpreted" onto the ones God gave.

Look at the Orthodox Jews who keep the Law today. The Law becomes a focus that distracts from the One who gave it. The Law becomes so oppressive and all-encompassing that even the of wiping one's behind holds theological implications.

The Scribes and Pharisees were far from literalists. If their modern equivalent is any indication, they were quite creative in adding onto the Law.

[Frank Ernest]

Originally posted by Crow

Let me give you modern examples of how the Pharisees and Scribes changed the Law.

The scriptures told the Jews to observe the Sabbath. It was supposed to be a day of rest.

Now, here is what happens when one is zealous to keep the Law, as Orthodox Jews are today. They are probably as close to the Pharisees of Christ's time in their zeal for the Law as you can find.

I was working in a primarily Jewish nursing home about 20 years ago as an agency nurse. It was a Friday night. Some of the bathrooms I entered had stacks of toilet paper ripped into sheets on the backs of the toilet tanks, and not a roll to be found on the roll holder.

I went and got a roll of toilet paper for each bathroom I found lacking a roll and threw the little stacks of toilet paper out.

Soon the wails started.

You see, the Orthodox Jews have added onto the Law until they have laws upon laws upon laws proliferating like a cancer. A day of rest has been perverted by those zealous for the Law into do no work whatsoever, even to the point that you transgress by tearing off a sheet of toilet paper to wipe your .........self. Why the tearing is work but the actual wiping is not is beyond me--I guess you have to be zealous for the Law to "get it."

Turning a light off and on is work, but putting on your shoes is not. Driving a car is work, but hoofing it to shul, which is actually more work, is not work. Riding an elevator is work because electricity is used (apparantly electricity is expected to keep the Sabbath) but walking up and down the stairs is not work. Opening a door is work, but walking a block to get a gentile to open it for you is not. Writing is work, but dictation is not work if you are dictating. If you are writing it down, it is. On and on and on ad absurdum. "Work" has been defined and argued over and prescribed and proscribed and regulated unto the "Nth" degree.

Can you picture why Christ was so frustrated with the Pharasees? Look at what he said about them--


23"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

The Pharisees did not have horns growing out of their heads, but they were so tied up with the Law that they couldn't see anything but the Law. Think of some of the things Christ called them, like "blind guides." Now picture people so zealous for the Law that they tried to legislate every nit picking aspect of existance and you'll get the Pharisees.

The Law said what it said. And the Pharisees were so zealous for it they messed around with it until it said even more. And more. And more. They complained when Christ healed a man on the Sabbath. There was no Law against that, save the ones the Pharisees "interpreted" onto the ones God gave.

Look at the Orthodox Jews who keep the Law today. The Law becomes a focus that distracts from the One who gave it. The Law becomes so oppressive and all-encompassing that even the of wiping one's behind holds theological implications.

The Scribes and Pharisees were far from literalists. If their modern equivalent is any indication, they were quite creative in adding onto the Law.



It's called the Talmud.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We see Christians commit adultery, murder stile and other morally unseemly things. I have heard it ask on numerous occasions. I have seen instances of it. It is a very discouraging fact to the church and to those who do such things.

I have heard excuse upon excuse and accusation upon accusation. Everyone trying to make sense of it all but no one outside of a very few know the truth of why this happens. The real reason of why this happens is that Christians are taught by the churches that they have no choice but to do those things. In short our churches teach a Christian how to fail. They teach a false and defeatist gospel.

Christians do those things because they believe they have no choice because they are still subject to the will of the flesh and they have to crucify the will of flesh by shear force of will and if they fail, they sin. Sin is such an abhorrent thing to a Christian that it turns into the most feared thing in life because they think and are taught that sin is inescapable. Oh, they give you a way out by telling you to repent of your sin and try like hell not to do it again. Its a merry-go-round. Its like going to jail getting out and going strait and before lone your right back in again. It is an insane life built on a pack of lies.


Hmmmmm, someone this long ago recognised this on this forum.
"christians" .... aren't....