Christian Schizophrenia

[Dave Miller]

The statement has been made over and over:

"I may be sinful in the flesh, but I am perfected in the Spirit."

Is this a healthy way to think?

Does not the spirit of a person motivate the actions of the flesh?


Dave

[God_Is_Truth]

why do you think we actively put to death the desires of the flesh?

[Dave Miller]

Greatful response to God's gift of Grace?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller


Does not the spirit of a person motivate the actions of the flesh?


Of course it does! If a person (unlike yourself) has the Spirit of God, they will accept the fact that they are righteous by the deeds of Christ, and not their own. If they do not make this conclusion, then the Spirit is not in them to renew their minds to this fundemental truth.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Sozo

Of course it does! If a person (unlike yourself) has the Spirit of God, they will accept the fact that they are righteous by the deeds of Christ, and not their own. If they do not make this conclusion, then the Spirit is not in them to renew their minds to this fundemental truth.

Good point.

Its more than schizophrenia, its multiple personality disorder.
Spirit of God, spirit of individual, fleshly desire, or is the fleshly
desire and the spirit of the individual one and the same? That's
not what I get when people say "I am perfected in Spirit."
That's the same as saying "I AM CHRIST."

Dave

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Good point.

Its more than schizophrenia, its multiple personality disorder.
Spirit of God, spirit of individual, fleshly desire, or is the fleshly
desire and the spirit of the individual one and the same? What? What do you think the spirit is?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Greatful response to God's gift of Grace?

no, it's because our spirit (having been perfected) transforms our flesh.

[Rolf Ernst]

Dave miller--your post # 7 is wrong, and there is no multiple personality disorder. Perfected in Christ refers to our standing in Christ, which is perfection. All who are relying upon His righteousness for our standing before God are already justified in Him.

"Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifies"

That is forever our standing before God. On the earth, we strive to live according to that justification.

Does someone have a multiple personality disorder because they have treasures in some bank account but for the present time they might be out on the street penniless?

The fact that we are grateful to God for being justified in Christ in spite of our earthly trials is the mark of someone whose citizenship is in heaven. Striving to live in accordance with our position in Christ because of our gratitude to Him and our delight in His holiness is the highest mark of sanity.

The truth about our justification is that it is not based upon what and who we are in ourselves. It is based upon the very righteousness of Jesus Christ. NO ONE CAN LIVE UP TO THAT, so for anyone to suggest we have a personality disorder is to completely misunderstand the meaning of being justified in Christ.

We are resting in Him--in HIS righteousness. Those who don't believe in Him have nothing but their own record to stand on. And God demands the perfection of Christ. Anyone who does not measure up to Christ will be cast out--"depart from me you workers of iniquity, for I never knew you" is the statement Jesus says He will make to them

[Rolf Ernst]

Dave--our saying that we are justified in Christ is NOT saying that we ARE Christ as you suggest.

All who were in Adam were made sinners because of the sin of one man, Adam; but now, all who were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world are justified because of the righteousness of the One man, Christ. See Romans, chapter five and 1 Cor. 15:45

Adam had children in him, and Christ had His children in Himself. To them He is "the everlasting Father." They are His "seed" whom He will surely "see and be satisfied." Isa. 53 and Psalm 22.

The fact that all sinned in Adam did not mean that all WERE Adam, and the fact that His children are justified in Christ does not mean that they ARE Christ.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Sozo

What? What do you think the spirit is?

I think God speaks to our souls through the Holy Spirit.

Our souls, our individual spirits, motivate our thoughts,
feelings, and actions.

God loves a broken and contrite spirit, the spirit convicted
by the Holy Spirit and living in humility and gratitude because
of it.

djm

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Dave--our saying that we are justified in Christ is NOT saying that we ARE Christ as you suggest.

All who were in Adam were made sinners because of the sin of one man, Adam; but now, all who were placed in Christ before the foundation of the world are justified because of the righteousness of the One man, Christ. See Romans, chapter five and 1 Cor. 15:45

Adam had children in him, and Christ had His children in Himself. To them He is "the everlasting Father." They are His "seed" whom He will surely "see and be satisfied." Isa. 53 and Psalm 22.

The fact that all sinned in Adam did not mean that all WERE Adam, and the fact that His children are justified in Christ does not mean that they ARE Christ.

Rolf, I have no arguments with you. You seem to have your
theological ducks in a row. Yes, I am justified through Christ,
even though my sinful nature remains so. This is unconditional
love, love offered by God not only for my strengths, but for my
weaknesses as well. "Just as I am."

How can I respond with anything but gratitude?

[Chileice]

Col. 3:
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.


Titus 3:
Graces of the Heirs of Grace
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. 3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.

Avoid Dissension
9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. 10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.

Final Messages
12 When I send Artemas to you, or Tychicus, be diligent to come to me at Nicopolis, for I have decided to spend the winter there. 13 Send Zenas the lawyer and Apollos on their journey with haste, that they may lack nothing. 14 And let our people also learn to maintain good works, to meet urgent needs, that they may not be unfruitful.

[1PeaceMaker]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Does not the spirit of a person motivate the actions of the flesh?
Is robbery bad? It is a bad action. But it can have a good motive.(spirit)

Jess touched a dead person. Uncleanness is sin. Jesus' Spirit was clean. His motives were good, even though he violated a Levitical law.

You are a bit confused. You equate motives with actions, thus missing the point.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

I think God speaks to our souls through the Holy Spirit.

Our souls, our individual spirits, motivate our thoughts,
feelings, and actions.

God loves a broken and contrite spirit, the spirit convicted
by the Holy Spirit and living in humility and gratitude because
of it.

djm

I agree! So is our spirit alive or dead? If you say "alive", then what do you think makes it alive?

I think you assume that the flesh is controlled by the spirit, which is contrary to everything that Paul says about the flesh. He says they are in opposition to one another. People whose spirits are dead to God can do a very good job of disciplining their flesh, but it will never be righteous. The same goes for those who are made alive in the spirit. They can discipline their flesh till the cows come home, but their flesh will never be acceptable to God. Only the spirit of a man is made whole and complete, and it groans within the body waiting for the day of the redemption of the body.

"... we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."

Our minds our renewed through the ministry of the Spirit of the things of God. The fact that some people change their behavior, after being made alive in the spirit, is not what makes them Christians. It is from believing the gospel of the righteousness of God in Christ, being reconciled to Him, and receiving His life! Some people change their behavior in some areas, and some in others. However, anyone who is a Christian will no one thing for sure, it is not what they do that makes them righteous, but what Christ did. If they do not have that one single truth, then they reject the very gospel that they claim they believe.

Christianity is not behavior modification, it is a complete change of identity. And even though a Christian may struggle with unprofitable behaviors, they will at least be able to discern that they are, in fact, unprofitable and inconsistent with who they are in Christ.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Sozo

Christianity is not behavior modification, it is a complete change of identity. And even though a Christian may struggle with unprofitable behaviors, they will at least be able to discern that they are, in fact, unprofitable and inconsistent with who they are in Christ. A well stated post, Sozo. I agree with all of it except...

"...they will at least be able to discern that they are, in fact, unprofitable and inconsistent with who they are in Christ."

On that point, I strongly disagree. In my opinion, and from my experience, even here on TOL, those struggling Christians CANNOT ALWAYS discern behaviors that are unprofitable and inconsistent with who they are in Christ. For the most part, it seems, we haven't a clue.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Yes, I am justified through Christ, even though my sinful nature remains so.Dave,

I realize that all have sinned, but where does it state that man has a sinful nature?

As I recall, Adam was created sinless, and therefore mankind was not created mortal, or with a "sinful nature" as you state. If God had made man with a sinful nature, then God would have made man mortal. God created man with neither a mortal nor immortal nature, but gave him the ability to choose which nature he has through faith.

If you have a sinful nature, you are mortal. If you are in Christ, where there is NO sin, you have a new spiritual nature and eternal life.

[Lighthouse]

elohiym-
Sozo said that those who are truly in Christ will be able to discern. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you didn't get that, seeing as how you aren't able to discern between them.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by lighthouse

elohiym-
Sozo said that those who are truly in Christ will be able to discern. But I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you didn't get that, seeing as how you aren't able to discern between them. There you go condemning me again, and thus condemn yourself. Way to go, lighthouse! :down:

[Lighthouse]

I'm not condemned. Are you? Is homosexuality contrary to who one is in Christ, or not? Can you make that discernment? If so, then I stand corrected. Sozo made it abundantly clear that those who are in Christ can discern. So, logically, those who can't are not in Christ. Therefore, they are not Christians.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by lighthouse

I'm not condemned. Are you?In this situation, if I'm not condemned, and 1PeaceMaker is not condemned, BY YOU, then you are not condemned. We certainly don't condemn you, lighthouse.
Originally posted by lighthouse

Is homosexuality contrary to who one is in Christ, or not?ALL uncleaness is contrary to who one is in Christ, so yes, it is contrary. So is menstruation, and ejaculation, FYI.Originally posted by lighthouse

Can you make that discernment?You just read that I can.Originally posted by lighthouse

If so, then I stand corrected.No problem.Originally posted by lighthouse

Sozo made it abundantly clear that those who are in Christ can discern. So, logically, those who can't are not in Christ. Therefore, they are not Christians. I still disagree that those who are in Christ can ALWAYS discern. Maybe Sozo will elaborate on that.

[Four O'Clock]

...I'm currently re-reading Andrew Murray's "Absolute Surrender" which IMHO definitively addressed this whole issue. An awesome read; I would recommend everyone to go out and get a copy. :up: :)

[Sozo]

Originally posted by elohiym

Maybe Sozo will elaborate on that. We simply disagree.

Do you believe that Christians will come to know that they should not steal from others? If so, why?

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Sozo

We simply disagree.Why not explain your position a little better, instead of just stating we simply disagree? How can you imply that Christians always know what behavior is unprofitable and inconsistent with who they are in Christ? And if that is true, then please affirm that anyone who cannot always discern is not in Christ, as lighthouse has claimed you believe.Originally posted by Sozo

Do you believe that Christians will come to know that they should not steal from others? If so, why? Absolutely not. They don't have a clue what stealing from others is.

Why start with stealing? And why end there?

Please confirm this: If the seventh-day sabbath is still a valid commandment, and eating pork is still an abomination, how come "Christians" cannot discern their behavior is unprofitable and inconsistent with who they are in Christ?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by elohiym

Absolutely not. They don't have a clue what stealing from others is.

That is not what I asked.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Sozo

That is not what I asked. Really? Let's review:

Sozo asked: "Do you believe that Christians will come to know that they should not steal from others? If so, why?"

elohiym answered: "Absolutely not. They don't have a clue what stealing from others is."

I gave you a direct answer. NO (absolutely not). Then I explained WHY they will not come to know that they should not steal from others. It is because they "don't have a clue" what stealing from others is. So IT IS what you asked. Maybe you should rephrase your question, if you don't like my answer.

I asked you some questions, too. Can you answer them directly?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by elohiym

Really? Let's review:

Sozo asked: "Do you believe that Christians will come to know that they should not steal from others? If so, why?"

elohiym answered: "Absolutely not. They don't have a clue what stealing from others is."

I gave you a direct answer. NO (absolutely not). Then I explained WHY they will not come to know that they should not steal from others. It is because they "don't have a clue" what stealing from others is. So IT IS what you asked. Maybe you should rephrase your question, if you don't like my answer.



I didn't ask if they knew if they were stealing, but if they knew whether or not they should steal. Big difference.

I asked you some questions, too. Can you answer them directly? Yes I can, but I won't.

Is it okay with you, elohiym, if I sleep with your wife? If not, why not?

[Rolf Ernst]

Four O'clock--Andrew Murray is excellent in all his writings. As the doctor would say, "take two of these paragraphs before retiring and call me in the morning." Murray has a spiritual depth that is not common even amoung ministers.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by Sozo

I didn't ask if they knew if they were stealing, but if they knew whether or not they should steal. Big difference.How do YOU know stealing is wrong Sozo?Originally posted by Sozo

Yes I can, but I won't.So, in your perfect Christian walk you discern that NOT explaining your theology is consistent with being in Christ? :confused:Originally posted by Sozo

Is it okay with you, elohiym, if I sleep with your wife? If not, why not? Why makeup stupid hypotheticals, Sozo. Let's talk about what you did do with my wife. You sent her an email, signed "Dave" (how nice), where you suggested Bob George's book, which you have recently admitted you don't agree with on critical points. So you recommended a false, garbage gospel to my wife, Dave. That's not okay, and it's not Christian. In fact, that is what a wolf in sheeps clothing does. Are you in Christ, or did you just have difficulty discerning your behavior as unprofitable and inconsistent with who YOU are in Christ?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by elohiym

How do YOU know stealing is wrong Sozo? Because Christ has given me everything pertaining to life and godliness, and my hope is in the things above and not on this earth. It is unloving to steal from others, and it is unprofitable to subject myself to the governing authorities and cause hardship to my family.

So, in your perfect Christian walk you discern that NOT explaining your theology is consistent with being in Christ? I am already aware of your obsession to defend perverts, and have no need to expel any energy on your worthless self.Why makeup stupid hypotheticals, Sozo. I was serious. I want to sleep with your wife. Can I?
You seem to have no objections to any form of sexual immorality, and so I would like to take advantage of your hospitality. Let's talk about what you did do with my wife. You sent her an email, signed "Dave" (how nice), where you suggested Bob George's book, which you have recently admitted you don't agree with on critical points. If your "wife" wants to come here and post her opinions, then she is subject to whatever advice comes her way. Get over it, dumb@ss!So you recommended a false, garbage gospel to my wife, Dave. You don't know what you are talking about. You are an enemy of the gospel, and a pervert.

[elohiym]

Sozo,

What more should I have expected from a wolf in sheeps clothing like yourself? Well, now that you have taken off your sheep suit, I guess it is profitable to address you as you like to address others.

elohiym asked: How do YOU know stealing is wrong Sozo?

Sozo answered:

Originally posted by Sozo

Because Christ has given me everything pertaining to life and godliness, and my hope is in the things above and not on this earth. It is unloving to steal from others, and it is unprofitable to subject myself to the governing authorities and cause hardship to my family.That doesn't ALWAYS make stealing wrong, Sozo. You have implied a Christian ALWAYS knows stealing is wrong, which is impossible if stealing isn't ALWAYS wrong.

Is it ALWAYS wrong to murder? Isn't one Iraqi woman's claim of her child being murdered just another man's claim of "collateral damage" in the cause of justice.Originally posted by Sozo

I am already aware of your obsession to defend perverts, and have no need to expel any energy on your worthless self.Oh really? Was defending you and lighthouse an obsession of mine?

As far as expending energy on my "worthless self", please don't puff yourself up too much, as you might float away.Originally posted by Sozo

I was serious. I want to sleep with your wife. Can I?When did Jesus Christ ever say something as vile as that? You are a blind fool, Sozo, if you think you can say crap like that, and also claim to be in Christ. You will reap what you sow.Originally posted by Sozo

You seem to have no objections to any form of sexual immorality, and so I would like to take advantage of your hospitality.That is a lie. You are a liar. And a viper!Originally posted by Sozo

If your "wife" wants to come here and post her opinions, then she is subject to whatever advice comes her way. Get over it, dumb@ss!Get over that YOU attempted to spread a false gospel? Oh, I see. YOU get to do that, but nobody else.

Tell me, Sozo: If I sent your wife a PM, in which I suggested that she read a false gospel, would that be wrong?Originally posted by Sozo

You don't know what you are talking about. You are an enemy of the gospel, and a pervert. Well, until you can actually prove your claims against me, and explain your point of view coherently, if not in a civil tone, then really all your words amount to is some hot air from a middle age fool that thinks he understands the gospel.

[Dave Miller]

Sozo, is your first name Dave too? We have but one thing
in common!

We discern, and yet we still mess up. Paul said it, reality demonstrates it.

To say that God's Spirit convicts and I still rebel works. To
say that Christ is perfect on my behalf works.

To say that my spirit is perfect but my flesh disobeys is
schizophrenic.

God made us whole people, mind, body, spirit are different
aspects of the whole person, same as Father, Son and HS
are aspects of One God.

[Rolf Ernst]

"If any man be in Christ, He is a new creature."

In other words, if he is NOT a new creature, he is not REALLY in Christ.

"Not everyone who says unto me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

Not one of us is worthy of His mercies. Not one of us has any hope in ourselves; nevertheless,despite our imperfections ("there is no man that sinneth not") we who have placed our reliance upon Him go from strength to strength. "The path of the just is as a shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day."
"He that has clean hands shall be stronger and stronger" because "He has predestined us to be conformed to the image of His dear Son."

All of His grace, all through the strength He provides, and all to HIS glory. "For of Him, and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever and ever."

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

"If any man be in Christ, He is a new creature."

In other words, if he is NOT a new creature, he is not REALLY in Christ.



This is the schizophrenia of which I speak!

By this logic, no one is in Christ, for no one is without sin,
not Paul nor Sozo nor you nor I!

If I say "I am a new creature," yet I still have a sinful nature,
be it impatience, or lust, or a "thing" for chocolate, is this not
schizophrenic? Is anyone among us, saved or otherwise,
truly and completely without sin?

And if the answer is "yes, in the spirit, but not in the flesh,"
that just proves my point!

However, to say "I am not perfect, but Christ is perfect on
my behalf, and for that I'm greatful," this makes sense,
its not schizophrenic, its humble, which is consistant with
everything Jesus had to say in the gospels.

Dave

[Dave Miller]

Maybe being a "new creature" has more to do with having
something different and better to live and hope for than it
has to do with magically becoming perfect in some fashion...

[Sozo]

Originally posted by elohiym



elohiym asked: How do YOU know stealing is wrong Sozo?

Sozo answered:

That doesn't ALWAYS make stealing wrong, Sozo. You have implied a Christian ALWAYS knows stealing is wrong, which is impossible if stealing isn't ALWAYS wrong.

And I'm the one who lacks discernment? :rolleyes:

God knows when stealing is stealing, and He certainly can minister to the heart and mind of His child when they are stealing.

Is it ALWAYS wrong to murder? Yes. It is not always wrong to kill.

Sozo said: I was serious. I want to sleep with your wife. Can I?
When did Jesus Christ ever say something as vile as that? I'll answer that question when you can prove that Jesus has no problem with men sleeping with men. If I sent your wife a PM, in which I suggested that she read a false gospel, would that be wrong? You do it all the time whenever you post anthing, so why would you do any less?

My wife would laugh at anything you had to say. She knows a dog when she smells one.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by elohiym

In this situation, if I'm not condemned, and 1PeaceMaker is not condemned, BY YOU, then you are not condemned. We certainly don't condemn you, lighthouse.
Maybe not, but you certainly condemn yourself.

ALL uncleaness is contrary to who one is in Christ, so yes, it is contrary. So is menstruation, and ejaculation, FYI.
Menstruation and ejaculation are natural. Homosexuality is not. And neither menstruation or ejaculation are unnrighteous. Homosexuality is.

You just read that I can.
Obviously you can't.

No problem.
Looks like I was right.

I still disagree that those who are in Christ can ALWAYS discern. Maybe Sozo will elaborate on that.
He didn't say that they can always discern, but that they come to discernment.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

This is the schizophrenia of which I speak!

By this logic, no one is in Christ, for no one is without sin,
not Paul nor Sozo nor you nor I!
You are so ignorant of the gospel, Dave! We are in Christ, and by that we are now without sin! As in, sin is not imputed to us, for we are not under any law that determines sin! And, as new creations, we no longer live as sinners live, doing the things we should not. We may fall from time to time, but we always rise, and by His grace, we repent!

If I say "I am a new creature," yet I still have a sinful nature,
be it impatience, or lust, or a "thing" for chocolate, is this not
schizophrenic? Is anyone among us, saved or otherwise,
truly and completely without sin?
What do you mean by, "a'thing'for chocolate"? If you mean a craving, no one considers that a sin, for anyone...unless they're screwed in the head.

And if the answer is "yes, in the spirit, but not in the flesh,"
that just proves my point!
Our flesh is dead, because of sin! End of story!

However, to say "I am not perfect, but Christ is perfect on
my behalf, and for that I'm greatful," this makes sense,
its not schizophrenic, its humble, which is consistant with
everything Jesus had to say in the gospels.

Dave
That's exactly what we are saying! Except that you missed the very important point, God has made us perfect, in Christ!

[Dave Miller]

OK, fine,

Homosexual people who accept Christ are "dead in the flesh,"
therefore without sin. But they are perfect in the Spirit, through
Christ. You're doctrine, your interpretation. So leave 'em
alone.

Dave

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

OK, fine,

Homosexual people who accept Christ are "dead in the flesh,"
therefore without sin. But they are perfect in the Spirit, through
Christ. You're doctrine, your interpretation. So leave 'em
alone.

Dave Dave, try not to be so stupid.

God does not want those whom He has given His life, and made complete in the spirit to go out and rape, murder, steal, lie, cheat, molest, or any other abherent behavior. He made us holy and seperated us from the world, in order that we can bring hope to those who do not know Him, not so that we can justify perverted behavior.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Sozo

Dave, try not to be so stupid.

God does not want those whom He has given His life, and made complete in the spirit to go out and rape, murder, steal, lie, cheat, molest, or any other abherent behavior. He made us holy and seperated us from the world, in order that we can bring hope to those who do not know Him, not so that we can justify perverted behavior.

Or nasty, abusive, abrasive, gossiping, backbiting...

Your the stupid one if you can't see that you're no better than
anyone else, oh holy perfect one.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Or nasty, abusive, abrasive, gossiping, backbiting...

Your the stupid one if you can't see that you're no better than
anyone else, oh holy perfect one. Why do you not approve of those things if you think that God approves of all behaviors?

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Sozo

Why do you not approve of those things if you think that God approves of all behaviors?

Its not about the behaviors, its about the hypocrisy...

No, God doesn't approve those behaviors, and sins which
hurt others are far worse than sins of ritual purity, i.e.
sins which harm no one, Christ made this very clear.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Its not about the behaviors, its about the hypocrisy...

No, God doesn't approve those behaviors, and sins which
hurt others are far worse than sins of ritual purity, i.e.
sins which harm no one, Christ made this very clear. What are "sins" that hurt no one?
:kookoo:

[Dave Miller]

eating shrimp, and just being a homosexual person in a
committed, exclusive relationship.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

...just being a homosexual person in a
committed, exclusive relationship.

Here Dave, I found a new avatar for you!

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

eating shrimp, and just being a homosexual person in a
committed, exclusive relationship.
Homosexuality has nothing to do with ritual purity! It is impure, plain and simple. And eating shrimp is not a sin!

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Sozo

Here Dave, I found a new avatar for you!

"I want to be .... a dentist!"

(Knight's avatar smacks its own forehead in frustration:
"why can't you be a right wing homo hating
dispensationalist like all the other elves?")

:cool:

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by lighthouse



And eating shrimp is not a sin!

It is according to the OT.


Homosexuality has nothing to do with ritual purity! It is impure, plain and simple.


Who is harmed in exclusive committed relationships?

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

It is according to the OT.
Are we pre-Christ Israel, or the Body of Christ?


Who is harmed in exclusive committed relationships?
Both parties, faggot.

[Dave Miller]

Back to the subject, sorry I brought homosexuality into it.

Its schizophrenic and destructive to think one's spirit is
perfected but one's flesh is corrupt.

I think this old battle beween the spirit and the flesh does
far more harm to people than good. Better if people find
healing and wholeness in Christ.

Dave

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Back to the subject, sorry I brought homosexuality into it.

Its schizophrenic and destructive to think one's spirit is
perfected but one's flesh is corrupt.

I think this old battle beween the spirit and the flesh does
far more harm to people than good. Better if people find
healing and wholeness in Christ.

Dave Yes Dave, we are all aware that you think Jesus & Paul are mentally unstable and a couple of liars...


"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

"For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Sozo

Yes Dave, we are all aware that you think Jesus & Paul are mentally unstable and a couple of liars...


No, just misinterpreted by self righteous Sozo types.



"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

"It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

"For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please."

Each of these references are to the Holy Spirit, AKA God. No
reference to a human soul being perfected. Christ is perfect
on our behalf, we receive the Holy Spirit as a gift, who
both convicts and uplifts us daily.

[Rolf Ernst]

Dave Miller--your post #33 is a display of the consequences of not understanding scripture. You label the Christian experience as Schizoid simply because you really don't understand the difference between the believer and the unbeliever. You do not understand the difference between what a man is before salvation, and what he is afterward. Perhaps that is because you have never SEEN an EXAMPLE of that difference.

Your attempt to force your own understanding of the meaning of being a "new creature" upon the Bible is vain even in TODAY'S language; and you can't be ignorant of your duplicity in refusing to understand. Anyone who amends his performance by a great improvement is often spoken of as being a "new man." Enhanced performance of an athlete sometimes brings the compliment of him/her being a "new pitcher," a "new runner," a "new quarterback," or a "new man" or a "new woman."

The fact that someone is a "new athlete" does not mean he is a "perfect" athlete, nor does the Bible's reference to a "new creature in Christ Jesus" imply that the newborn child of God IS ALREADY PERFECT. Are you making a deliberate effort to not understand, or are you really failing to comprehend?

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Back to the subject, sorry I brought homosexuality into it.

Its schizophrenic and destructive to think one's spirit is
perfected but one's flesh is corrupt.

I think this old battle beween the spirit and the flesh does
far more harm to people than good. Better if people find
healing and wholeness in Christ.

Dave
The flesh is dead! What causes harm is the belief that it isn't. We are dead to sin, free from it, and slaves to righteousness! Harm comes when people live as though this is not true. When they live as if they are slaves to sin, and not slaves to righteousness! Harm comes when people believe that their flesh is not dead, and that it can still win. But the truth is that our flesh is dead, and it has already lost!

[gabriel]

Originally posted by lighthouse

The flesh is dead! What causes harm is the belief that it isn't. We are dead to sin, free from it, and slaves to righteousness! Harm comes when people live as though this is not true. When they live as if they are slaves to sin, and not slaves to righteousness! Harm comes when people believe that their flesh is not dead, and that it can still win. But the truth is that our flesh is dead, and it has already lost!

... dear lightouse: "slaves to righteousness" is still a "slave", is it not...? why be a slave at all..???? to anything?

[Lighthouse]

Because, gabriel, you can not not be a slave. You are either a slave to sin, or a slave to righteousness. There is no other option. And I would rather be a slave to righteousness, than a slave to sin.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Because, gabriel, you can not not be a slave. Ahhh, but what if there were a way to actually be free.... would you be interested in exchanging your shackles for freedom? :think:

Or is it too frightening a concept to be truly responsible for your own destiny? :shocked:

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Rolf Ernst

Dave Miller--your post #33 is a display of the consequences of not understanding scripture. You label the Christian experience as Schizoid simply because you really don't understand the difference between the believer and the unbeliever. You do not understand the difference between what a man is before salvation, and what he is afterward. Perhaps that is because you have never SEEN an EXAMPLE of that difference.

Your attempt to force your own understanding of the meaning of being a "new creature" upon the Bible is vain even in TODAY'S language; and you can't be ignorant of your duplicity in refusing to understand. Anyone who amends his performance by a great improvement is often spoken of as being a "new man." Enhanced performance of an athlete sometimes brings the compliment of him/her being a "new pitcher," a "new runner," a "new quarterback," or a "new man" or a "new woman."

The fact that someone is a "new athlete" does not mean he is a "perfect" athlete, nor does the Bible's reference to a "new creature in Christ Jesus" imply that the newborn child of God IS ALREADY PERFECT. Are you making a deliberate effort to not understand, or are you really failing to comprehend?

I understand completely. I am a new person in Christ because
I have something meaningful to live for, I have a higher purpose
for my life, to serve God by sharing His invitation to loving
relationship with others.

Its the "others" on TOL who truley believe that their flesh is dead,
they are "perfect" in spirit, and so far beyond sin, that rude,
hurtful, hateful, intolerant attitude and words which drive people
away from God is considered "good Christian behavior."

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Zakath

Ahhh, but what if there were a way to actually be free.... would you be interested in exchanging your shackles for freedom? :think:

Or is it too frightening a concept to be truly responsible for your own destiny? :shocked:

Who is free, the sheep in the fold who is protected by the
shephard, or the sheep outside the fold who is open
prey to the wolf?

[Rolf Ernst]

Dave--concerning your post #58--Read Titus 3:2,3. And hang in there.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Who is free, the sheep in the fold who is protected by the
shephard, or the sheep outside the fold who is open
prey to the wolf?

Two thoughts...

"Those who would exchange freedom for safety one day realize they have neither freedom, nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

In reality the shepherd claims to be protecting the sheep, all the while fattening them for the slaughter to feed and clothe him.

No thanks, I'll stay outside the alleged "safety" of the sheepfold. :D

==============

BTW, if you're as transformed as you allege, then Satan has no power over you... why bother to stay in the sheepfold if the "wolf" can't harm you? :think:

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Zakath

Two thoughts...

"Those who would exchange freedom for safety one day realize they have neither freedom, nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

In reality the shepherd claims to be protecting the sheep, all the while fattening them for the slaughter to feed and clothe him.

No thanks, I'll stay outside the alleged "safety" of the sheepfold. :D

==============

BTW, if you're as transformed as you allege, then Satan has no power over you... why bother to stay in the sheepfold if the "wolf" can't harm you? :think:

1. There is no freedom outside the fold, only certain death.

2. The Good Shephard gives His life for His sheep, the sheep
gladly give themselves in service to the Shephard.

3. Upon accepting the gift of Grace, one becomes a part of the
fold.

Dave

[logos_x]

Is a homosexual a homosexual in the spirit, or the flesh?

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Zakath

Ahhh, but what if there were a way to actually be free.... would you be interested in exchanging your shackles for freedom? :think:

Or is it too frightening a concept to be truly responsible for your own destiny? :shocked:
Well, as a slave to righteousness, I have found true freedom.:think: And, shockingly, I agree with Dave on this one. The one inside the gate, with the Shepherd, is the freer one.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by logos_x

Is a homosexual a homosexual in the spirit, or the flesh?
In the flesh. When one comes to Christ, then the flesh is made dead. And those who know the truth will live as Christ has made them, dead in the flesh and alive in teh Spirit!

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by lighthouse

In the flesh. When one comes to Christ, then the flesh is made dead. And those who know the truth will live as Christ has made them, dead in the flesh and alive in teh Spirit!

Right, so since they are dead in the flesh and perfect in Spirit,
it doesn't matter whether they continue homosexual
relationships.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Well, as a slave...I have found true freedom.:think:
:shocked:

Thank you for a marvelous illustration of cognitive dissonance.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Right, so since they are dead in the flesh and perfect in Spirit,
it doesn't matter whether they continue homosexual
relationships.
No! Being perfect in spirit can only be done by being in the Spirit, and one who is in Christ will not continue in such behavior! Romans 6:2, David! Read it! Learn it! Galatians 2:20 is another good one. For it says that we do not live, but Christ lives in us. So, how can anyone live in such abominaton, if Christ is the one living the life? Christ would not live like that, Dave! Do they lose their salvation if they fall? No. But those who are truly saved will not live in that lifestyle, for those in Christ are dead to sin, and they do not live in it!

[Frank Ernest]

Dave Miller:
Right, so since they are dead in the flesh and perfect in Spirit,
it doesn't matter whether they continue homosexual
relationships.

FrankiE:
:darwinsm: Fast-food theology.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Right, so since they are dead in the flesh and perfect in Spirit,
it doesn't matter whether they continue homosexual
relationships. Being a homo, or not being a homo will never make anyone righteous before God. Righteousness is a gift through faith in Christ. However, you would have to ignore a majority of Paul's writings to the body of Christ if you think that your behavior is irrelevant in your relationships with those whom Christ has died for. Your acceptance of homosexuality, is a clear indication, that you are void of that love, Dave Miller, and therefore hate your neighbor, and are not in the body of Christ.

[wickwoman]

Dear Dave:

Your thinking in the OP is correct in my opinion. And, so, the extent to which we love will demonstrate the extent to which we have contacted that "spring of living water" within our souls.

The only sin is to harm God's creation. I use the word sin to mean "that which separates us from ourselves/God." When we are selfish and unloving, we have not been changed by God's love.

There is no disconnect between behavior and soul. It is a direct demonstration of the "inner man." Jesus said it was from within that all sin comes, not without. So to say, I am changed inside but sinful on the outside is a lie.

Rumi said: "Soul serves as the cup for the juice that leaves the intellect in ruins." We do not understand this "living water." But, if we allow it to flow out of us, we will change the world.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by wickwoman
"that which separates us from ourselves/God."

Are you saying you are god, ww?

[wickwoman]

Dear Nineveh:

I am saying . . . "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20, 21 (NIV)

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Sozo

Being a homo, or not being a homo will never make anyone righteous before God. Righteousness is a gift through faith in Christ. However, you would have to ignore a majority of Paul's writings to the body of Christ if you think that your behavior is irrelevant in your relationships with those whom Christ has died for. Your acceptance of homosexuality, is a clear indication, that you are void of that love, Dave Miller, and therefore hate your neighbor, and are not in the body of Christ.

As is your ruthless, intolerant, heartless, arrogent attitude
Sozo. God's patience, tolerance, and kindness leads to
repentance. Paul's words, not mine, words you ignore, not
me. The words you use to try and convict me apply equally well
to you. But you are blind to that, and you probably will
continue to be.

Dave

[Nineveh]

ww,
Is that a yes or a no? "ourselves/God" seems to indicate you think you are. So which is it? IS it possible for you to simply say yes or no to a simple yes or no question?

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

God's patience, tolerance, and kindness leads to repentance.

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.

Do you know what the message is?

[servent101]

Nineveh Do you know what the message is?

according to many conversations with Ninveh - it is not the message that saves you - it is understanding that the message is the inerrant Word of God, and nothing outside of the Bible is True, in fact everything outside of the Bible is from the Devil - and when you understand that you do not understand or use your capacity to reason and comprehend, you just accept whatever is in that book called the Bible as True - then and only then are you saved and fit for company with other christians.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Nineveh

ww,
Is that a yes or a no? "ourselves/God" seems to indicate you think you are. So which is it? IS it possible for you to simply say yes or no to a simple yes or no question?

Nineveh, it's always such a pleasure to chat with you.

Let me explain a basic of conversation. When you ask a question, I get to give my answer. Then, if you don't like the answer, you don't get to say I didn't answer. And, a lot of questions can be answered with something other than "yes" or "no." And I don't believe that you set out parameters as to how I should answer your question. So, my answer stands.

But, since I'm in a good mood, I'll indulge you. No, I do not think I am God - the "ground of being," however, I am "being" so that would make me part of "the ground of being" or something which sprung (sp?) forth from the ground of being. So the simple answer is yes and no. Thanks for playing! As always, it was truly a pleasure.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by wickwoman

No, I do not think I am God - the "ground of being," however, I am "being" so that would make me part of "the ground of being" or something which sprung (sp?) forth from the ground of being. So the simple answer is yes and no.

Looks like Sozo is on to something there, dave. Your pagan congregant thinks she is and is not god. Maybe she needs to "hear that message" instead of how tolerant you are.

[servent101]

NinevehMaybe she needs to "hear that message"

This is the message you preach Nineveh it is not the message that saves you - it is understanding that the message is the inerrant Word of God, and nothing outside of the Bible is True, in fact everything outside of the Bible is from the Devil - and when you understand that you do not understand or use your capacity to reason and comprehend, you just accept whatever is in that book called the Bible as True - then and only then are you saved and fit for company with other christians.

When you live your walk, your talk will exemplify what you believe, and what you seem to exemplify is nothing but piss and vinegar.

It is not a pleasure to communicate this to one such as you, but I do suffer for the Lord's sake.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[wickwoman]

Dear Nineveh a/k/a Vinegar:

I am saying, that I am a petal, not the flower. How's that Butterfly?

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Looks like Sozo is on to something there, dave. Your pagan congregant thinks she is and is not god. Maybe she needs to "hear that message" instead of how tolerant you are.

You don't think that the Holy Spirit dwells within you?

[Nineveh]

The thread title is:
"Christian Schizophrenia", started by assistant pastor Dave Miller.

And his congregant says:
"I am saying, that I am a petal, not the flower. How's that Butterfly?"

What are you slippin' into the communion wafers, dave?

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

You don't think that the Holy Spirit dwells within you?

Sozo was speaking to you, and your congregant isn't making you look much better...

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Sozo was speaking to you, and your congregant isn't making you look much better...

I'm asking your opinion, not Sozo's. No indwelling Holy Spirit
in your theology?

Dave

[Nineveh]

Dave,
Since you asked my opinion ...

Judging from what I have read coming from you, I agree with Sozo, the spirit you accepted was not from the God in the Bible.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Dave,
Since you asked my opinion ...

Judging from what I have read coming from you, I agree with Sozo, the spirit you accepted was not from the God in the Bible.

Can't answer anything straight, but demand straight answers
from everyone else.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Can't answer anything straight, but demand straight answers
from everyone else.

Making that a statement, rather than a question, is very self-descriptive of you!

:thumb:

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by wickwoman

...to say, I am changed inside but sinful on the outside is a lie.
If you only knew the true meaning fo what you said, and how true it really is.:cry:

[wickwoman]

Dear Dave:

It seems the behavior of those who claim to be redeemed has demonstrated aptly the subject of this thread. And, as long as a person believes themself to be dirty and sinful, they will behave sinfully and attempt to sling mud on anyone else who has the nerve to claim to be clean. So, it could be you are mud wrestling with pigs here. And you know what happens when you do that ;).

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Can't answer anything straight, but demand straight answers
from everyone else.

Frustrating isn't it.

However, you wanted my opinion and that is what you got.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by dave's congregant

Dear Dave:

It seems the behavior of those who claim to be redeemed has demonstrated aptly the subject of this thread.

Never mind dave's congregant thinks she is and is not god....

And, as long as a person believes themself to be dirty and sinful, they will behave sinfully and attempt to sling mud on anyone else who has the nerve to claim to be clean. So, it could be you are mud wrestling with pigs here. And you know what happens when you do that ;).

Dave, you ever going to tell this unsaved woman the message? Or do you know it? She still thinks herself clean, she doesn't need to be cleansed. She is healthy she doesn't need the Physician.

[servent101]

Dave

Dave, you ever going to tell Nineveh the message? Or do you know it? She still thinks herself clean, she doesn't need to be cleansed. She is healthy she doesn't need the Physician.



This is what Nineveh believes it is not the message that saves you - it is understanding that the message is the inerrant Word of God, and nothing outside of the Bible is True, in fact everything outside of the Bible is from the Devil - and when you understand that you do not understand or use your capacity to reason and comprehend, you just accept whatever is in that book called the Bible as True - then and only then are you saved and fit for company with other christians.


At least she has not denied that this is what she believes – how about it Nineveh – is this your message?

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[servent101]

WickwomanI am saying, that I am a petal, not the flower. How's that Butterfly?

The one I like is I am a drop in the ocean, but not the ocean

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Sozo]

Originally posted by servent101

The one I like is

"I am a drop in the ocean, but not the ocean"



Yep, straight from a birds butt!

[servent101]

To All on a more serious note;

Possibly there would be less Christian Schizophrenia if we would learn how to help one another to live the Life worthy of the Calling. Unfortunately the local church pastimes seem to be centered on finding fault with activities such as sex and alcohol - the easy sins to articulate. But faultfinding is more complex, as well as charity, humility, kindness, forgiveness, bearing one another's burdens, fellowship, and brotherly love. If we as a "people" would deal with our own selves, and learn how to help members of the "church" become more than family - to find a way that we could find recreation that would take the place of "worldly activities" and if we could encourage one another, instead of finding fault with the easily articualable sins and letting the more weightier matters of the Law - justice, charity, mercy, fellowship center around not doing the simply articulated sins. This mindset takes over the whole congregation and as Jesus said, a little yeast levels the whole lot. It is this faultfinding and enjoying our own superiority in some simple areas to articulate that causes us to be foiled.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by servent101

Possibly there would be less Christian Schizophrenia if ...

Folks who claim "Christ's Love" actually preached the message instead of being "non salvationist".

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by servent101

To All on a more serious note;

Possibly there would be less Christian Schizophrenia if we would learn how to help one another to live the Life worthy of the Calling. Unfortunately the local church pastimes seem to be centered on finding fault with activities such as sex and alcohol - the easy sins to articulate. But faultfinding is more complex, as well as charity, humility, kindness, forgiveness, bearing one another's burdens, fellowship, and brotherly love. If we as a "people" would deal with our own selves, and learn how to help members of the "church" become more than family - to find a way that we could find recreation that would take the place of "worldly activities" and if we could encourage one another, instead of finding fault with the easily articualable sins and letting the more weightier matters of the Law - justice, charity, mercy, fellowship center around not doing the simply articulated sins. This mindset takes over the whole congregation and as Jesus said, a little yeast levels the whole lot. It is this faultfinding and enjoying our own superiority in some simple areas to articulate that causes us to be foiled.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

Amen!

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by wickwoman

Amen!

Said the "schizophrenic" who is and is not god to the "schizophrenic" who is and is not !!!First.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

The thread title is:
"Christian Schizophrenia", started by assistant pastor Dave Miller.

And his congregant says:
"I am saying, that I am a petal, not the flower. How's that Butterfly?"

What are you slippin' into the communion wafers, dave?

Paul said that Christ is the Head, and we are all parts of
the body of Christ. Not much different than the flower and
petals. WW demonstrates a real understanding of what
Paul means by his words.

Dave

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Sozo

Yep, straight from a birds butt! The lofty intellectual calibre of your responses to your fellow posters is a continual source of .... amazement...

.... or was that amusement?

:rolleyes:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Zakath

The lofty intellectual calibre of your responses to your fellow posters is a continual source of .... amazement...

.... or was that amusement?

:rolleyes:


:chuckle:

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by serpent101

Dave

Dave, you ever going to tell Nineveh the message? Or do you know it? She still thinks herself clean, she doesn't need to be cleansed. She is healthy she doesn't need the Physician.



This is what Nineveh believes


At least she has not denied that this is what she believes – how about it Nineveh – is this your message?

With Satan's Hate

Serpent101
You have no clue what Nineveh believes, you hack! Your twisted idea is not the message, moron. You preach lies, and leave truth absent. And the fact that you're too blind to see that one has to understand the message, for it to be of any use to them is beyond idiocy.

[Frank Ernest]

Paul said that Christ is the Head, and we are all parts of
the body of Christ. Not much different than the flower and
petals. WW demonstrates a real understanding of what
Paul means by his words.

Dave

:darwinsm:
I believe that Ezekiel 13:17-23 applies here.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Paul said that Christ is the Head, and we are all parts of
the body of Christ. Not much different than the flower and
petals. WW demonstrates a real understanding of what
Paul means by his words.

Dave


I believe that Ezekiel 13:17-23 applies here.

Wow, it sure does!



Raven hair and ruby lips
sparks fly from her finger tips
Echoed voices in the night
she's a restless spirit on an endless flight

wooo hooo wick(ed) woman, see how
high she flies
woo hoo wick(ed) woman she got
the moon in her eye

She held me spellbound in the night
dancing shadows and firelight
crazy laughter in another
room and she drove herself to madness
with a silver spoon

woo hoo wick(ed) woman see how high she flies
woo hoo wick(ed) woman she got the moon in her eye

Well I know you want a lover,
let me tell your brother, she's been sleeping
in the Devil's bed...


woo hoo wick(ed) woman
see how high she flies
woo hoo wick(ed) woman
she got the moon in her eye

[Granite]

Originally posted by Zakath

The lofty intellectual calibre of your responses to your fellow posters is a continual source of .... amazement...

.... or was that amusement?

:rolleyes:

:chuckle:

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by Sozo

Wow, it sure does!

. . .

woo hoo wick(ed) woman
see how high she flies
woo hoo wick(ed) woman
she got the moon in her eye

Having dreams, I mean nightmares, about me again Sozo? See you tonight sweety :kiss: .

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Paul said that Christ is the Head, and we are all parts of
the body of Christ. Not much different than the flower and
petals. WW demonstrates a real understanding of what
Paul means by his words.

He was talking to those in the Body, not those you keep trying to force into Christ's Body. It ain't up to you who is and is not in Christ, it's between their heart and God.

The only thing ww is demonstrating is you are a pastor to pagans.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

He was talking to those in the Body, not those you keep trying to force into Christ's Body. It ain't up to you who is and is not in Christ, it's between their heart and God.

The only thing ww is demonstrating is you are a pastor to pagans.

I'm not ordained, but,

Is not God the God of all creation? Would not then a
Pastor of the True and Most High God be a Pastor to
all creation as well?

Dave

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

I'm not ordained, but,

Is not God the God of all creation? Would not then a
Pastor of the True and Most High God be a Pastor to
all creation as well?

To keep them in sin? No.

How about you become a high priest for pagans, you surely won't tell them the message of Christ. So I'll stop playing along like you are an assistant pastor to the Body, but actually a high priest to pagans.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

To keep them in sin? No.

How about you become a high priest for pagans, you surely won't tell them the message of Christ. So I'll stop playing along like you are an assistant pastor to the Body, but actually a high priest to pagans.

When you finally do turn to Christ, you will find peace, this
God promises Nineveh.

[Balder]

The Dignity of Difference: Avoiding the Clash of Civilizations
The 2002 Templeton Lecture on Religion and World Affairs

Volume 10, Number 3
July 2002

by Rabbi Professor Jonathan Sacks


Rabbi Sacks is Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregations of the British Commonwealth. This essay is adapted from his speech given for FPRI’s 7th Annual Templeton Lecture on Religion and World Affairs on May 21, 2002, sponsored by a generous contribution from John M. Templeton, Jr. The full transcript will soon be posted shortly on this website; in the meantime, you can read the six previous Templeton Lectures.

Religion has become a decisive force in the contemporary world, and it is crucial that it be a force for good— for conflict resolution, not conflict creation. If religion is not part of the solution, then it will surely be part of the problem. I would like therefore to put forward a simple but radical idea. I want to offer a new reading, or, more precisely, a new listening, to some very ancient texts. I do so because our situation in the 21st century, post-September 11, is new, in three ways.

First, religion has returned, counterintuitively, against all expectation, in many parts of the world, as a powerful, even shaping, force.

Second, the presence of religion has been particularly acute in conflict zones such as Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Kashmir and the rest of India and Pakistan, Northern Ireland, the Middle East, sub-Saharan Africa, and parts of Asia.

Third, religion is often at the heart of conflict. It has been said that in the Balkans, among Catholic Croats, Orthodox Serbs, and Muslims, all three speak the same language and share the same race; the only thing that divides them is religion.

Religion is often the fault-line along which the sides divide. The reason for this is simple. Whereas the 20th century was dominated by the politics of ideology, the 21st century will be dominated by the politics of identity. The three great Western institutions of modernity — science, economics, and politics — are more procedural than substantive, answering questions of “What?” and “How?” but not “Who?” and “Why?” Therefore when politics turns from ideology to identity, people inevitably turn to religion, the great repository of human wisdom on the questions “Who am I?” and “Of what narrative am I a part?”

When any system gives precedence to identity, it does so by defining an “us” and in contradistinction to a “them.” Identity divides, whether Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland, Jews and Muslims in the Middle East, or Muslims and Hindus in India. In the past, this was a less acute issue, because for most of history, most people lived in fairly constant proximity to people with whom they shared an identity, a faith, a way of life. Today, whether through travel, television, the Internet, or the sheer diversity of our multi-ethnic and multi-faith societies, we live in the conscious presence of difference. Societies that have lived with this difference for a long time have learned to cope with it, but for societies for whom this is new, it presents great difficulty.

This would not necessarily be problematic. After the great wars of religion that came in the wake of the Reformation, this was resolved in Europe in the 17th century by the fact that diverse religious populations were subject to overarching state governments with the power to contain conflict. It was then that nation-states arose, along with the somewhat different approaches of Britain and America: John Locke and the doctrine of toleration, and Thomas Jefferson and the separation of church and state. The British and American ways of resolving conflict were different but both effective at permitting a plurality of religious groups to live together within a state of civil peace.

What has changed today is the sheer capacity of relatively small, subnational groups— through global communications, porous national borders, and the sheer power of weapons of mass destruction — to create havoc and disruption on a large scale. In the 21st century we obviously need physical defense against terror, but also a new religious paradigm equal to the challenge of living in the conscious presence of difference. What might that paradigm be?

In the dawn of civilization, the first human response to difference was tribalism: my tribe against yours, my nation against yours, my god against yours. In this pre- monotheistic world, gods were local. They belonged to a particular place and had “local jurisdiction,” watching over the destinies of particular people. So the Mesopotamians had Marduk and the Moabites Chamosh, the Egyptians their pantheon and the ancient Greeks theirs. The tribal, polytheistic world was a world of conflict and war. In some respects that world lasted in Europe until 1914, under the name of nationalism. In 1914 young men— Rupert Brooke and First World War poets throughout Europe — were actually eager to go to war, restless for it, before they saw carnage on a massive scale. It took two world wars and 100 million deaths to cure us of that temptation.

However, for almost 2,500 years, in Western civilization, there was an alternative to tribalism, offered by one of the great philosophers of all time: Plato. I am going to call this universalism. My thesis will be that universalism is also inadequate to our human condition. What Plato argued in The Republic is that this world of the senses, of things we can see and hear and feel, the world of particular things, isn’t the source of knowledge or truth or reality. How is one to understand what a tree is, if trees are always changing from day to day and there are so many different kinds of them? How can one define a table if tables come in all shapes and sizes — big, small, old, new, wood, other materials? How does one understand reality in this world of messy particulars? Plato said that all these particulars are just shadows on a wall. What is real is the world of forms and ideas: the idea of a table, the form of a tree. Those are the things that are universal. Truth is the move from particularity to universality. Truth is the same for everyone, everywhere, at all times. Whatever is local, particular, and unique is insubstantial, even illusory.

This is a dangerous idea, because it suggests that all differences lead to tribalism and then to war, and that the best alternative therefore is to eliminate differences and impose on the world a single, universal truth. If this is true, then when you and I disagree, if I am right, you are wrong. If I care about truth, I must convert you from your error. If I can’t convert you, maybe I can conquer you. And if I can’t conquer you, then maybe I have to kill you, in the name of that truth. From this flows the blood of human sacrifice through the ages.

September 11 happened when two universal civilizations— global capitalism and medieval Islam— met and clashed. When universal civilizations meet and clash, the world shakes and lives are lost. Is there an alternative, not only to tribalism, which we all know is a danger, but also to universalism?

Let us read the Bible again and hear in it a message that is both simple and profound, and, I believe, an important one for our time. We will start with what the Bible is about: one man, Abraham, and one woman, Sarah, who have children and become a family and then in turn a tribe, a collection of tribes, a nation, a particular people, and a people of the covenant.

What is striking is that the Bible doesn’t begin with that story. For the first eleven chapters, it tells the universal story of humanity: Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel, Noah and the flood, Babel and the builders, universal archetypes living in a global culture. In the opening words of Genesis 11, "The whole world was of one language and shared speech." Then in Genesis 12, God’s call to Abraham, the Bible moves to the particular. This exactly inverts Plato’s order. Plato begins with the particular and then aspires to the universal. The Bible begins with the universal and then aspires to the particular. That is the opposite direction. It makes the Bible the great counter-Platonic narrative in Western civilization.

The Bible begins with two universal, fundamental statements. First, in Genesis 1, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.” In the ancient world it was not unknown for human beings to be in the image of God: that’s what Mesopotamian kings and the Egyptian pharaoh were. The Bible was revolutionary for saying that every human being is in the image of God.

The second epic statement is in Genesis 9, the covenant with Noah, the first covenant with all mankind, the first statement that God asks all humanity to construct societies based on the rule of law, the sovereignty of justice and the non-negotiable dignity of human life.

It is surely those two passages that inspire the words “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights. . . .” The irony is that these truths are anything but self-evident. Plato or Aristotle wouldn’t know what the words meant. Plato believed profoundly that human beings are created unequal, and Aristotle believed that some people are born to be free, other to be slaves.

These words are self-evident only in a culture saturated in the universal vision of the Bible. However, that vision is only the foundation. From then on, starting with Babel and the confusion of languages and God’s call to Abraham, the Bible moves from the universal to the particular, from all mankind to one family. The Hebrew Bible is the first document in civilization to proclaim monotheism, that God is not only the God of this people and that place but of all people and every place. Why then does the Bible deliver an anti-Platonic, particularistic message from Genesis 12 onwards? The paradox is that the God of Abraham is the God of all mankind, but the faith of Abraham is not the faith of all mankind.

In the Bible you don’t have to be Jewish to be a man or woman of God. Melchizedek, Abraham’s contemporary, was not a member of the covenantal family, but the Bible calls him “a priest of God Most High.” Moses' father-in-law, Jethro, a Midianite, gives Israel its first system of governance. And one of the most courageous heroines of the Exodus— the one who gives Moses his name and rescues him— is an Egyptian princess. We call her Batya or Bithiah, the Daughter of God.

Melchizedek, Jethro, and Pharaoh’s daughter are not part of the Abrahamic covenant, yet God is with them and they are with God. As the rabbis put it two thousand years ago, “The righteous of every faith, of every nation, have a share in the world to come.” Why, if God is the God of all humanity, is there not one faith, one truth, one way for all humanity?

My reading is this: that after the collapse of Babel, the first global project, God calls on one person, Abraham, one woman, Sarah, and says “Be different.” In fact, the word "holy” in the Hebrew Bible, kadosh, actually means "different, distinctive, set apart.” Why did God tell Abraham and Sarah to be different? To teach all of us the dignity of difference. That God is to be found in someone who is different from us. As the great rabbis observed some 1,800 years ago, when a human being makes many coins in the same mint, they all come out the same. God makes every human being in the same mint, in the same image, his own, and yet we all come out differently. The religious challenge is to find God’s image in someone who is not in our image, in someone whose color is different, whose culture is different, who speaks a different language, tells a different story, and worships God in a different way.

This is a paradigm shift in understanding monotheism. And we are in a position to hear this message in a way that perhaps previous generations were not. Because we have now acquired a general understanding of the world that is significantly different from our ancestors'. I will give just two instances of this among many: one from the world of natural science and one from economics.

The first is from biology. There was a time in the European Enlightenment when it was thought that all of nature was one giant machine with many interlocking parts, all harmonized in the service of mankind. We now know that nature is quite different, that its real miracle is its diversity. Nature is a complex ecology in which every animal, plant, bird, every single species has its own part to play and the whole has its own independent integrity.

We know even more than this thanks to the discovery of DNA and our decoding of the genome. Science writer Matt Ridley points out that the three-letter words of the genetic code are the same in every creature. “CGA means arginine, GCG means alanine, in bats, in beetles, in bacteria. Wherever you go in the world, whatever animal, plant, bug, or blob you look at, if it is alive, it will use the same dictionary and know the same code. All life is one.” The genetic code, bar a few tiny local aberrations, is the same in every creature. We all use exactly the same language. This means that there was only one creation, one single event when life was born. This is what the Bible is hinting at. The real miracle of this created world is not the Platonic form of the leaf, it’s the 250,000 different kinds of leaf there are. It’s not the idea of a bird, but the 9,000 species that exist. It is not a universal language, it is the 6,000 languages actually spoken. The miracle is that unity creates diversity, that unity up there creates diversity down here.

One can look at the same phenomenon from the perspective of economics. We are all different, and each of us has certain skills and lacks others. What I lack, you have, and what you lack, I have. Because we are all different we specialize, we trade, and we all gain. The economist David Ricardo put forward a fascinating proposition, the Law of Comparative Advantage, in the early 19th century. This says that if you are better at making axe heads than fishing, and I am better at fishing than making axe heads, we gain by trade even if you're better than me at both fishing and making axe heads. You can be better than me at everything, and yet we still benefit if you specialize at what you're best at and I specialize at what I’m best at. The law of comparative advantage tells us that every one of us has something unique to contribute, and by contributing we benefit not only ourselves but other people as well.

In the market economy throughout all of history, differences between cultures and nations have led to one of two possible consequences. When different nations meet, they either make war or they trade. The difference is that from war at the very least one side loses, and in the long run, both sides lose. From trade, both sides gain. When we value difference the way the market values difference, we create a non-zero sum scenario of human interaction. We turn the narrative of tragedy, of war, into a script of hope.

So whether we look at biology or economics, difference is the precondition of the complex ecology in which we live. And by turning to the Bible we arrive at a new paradigm, one that is neither universalism nor tribalism, but a third option, which I call the dignity of difference. This option values our shared humanity as the image of God, and creates that shared humanity in terms like the American Declaration of Independence or the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights. But it also values our differences, just as loving parents love all their children not for what makes them the same but for what makes each of them unique. That is what the Bible means when it calls God a parent.

This religious paradigm can be mapped onto the political map of the 21st century. With the end of the Cold War, there were two famous scenarios about where the world would go: Francis Fukuyama’s End of History (1989) and Samuel Huntington’s Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order (1996).

Fukuyama envisaged an eventual, gradual spread first of global capitalism, then of liberal democracy, with the result being a new universalism, a single culture that would embrace the world.

Huntington saw something quite different. He saw that modernization did not mean Westernization, that the spread of global capitalism would run up against countermovements, the resurgence of older and deeper loyalties, a clash of cultures, or what he called civilizations— in short, a new tribalism.

And to a considerable extent, that is where we are. Even as the global economy binds us ever more closely together, spreading a universal culture across the world — what Benjamin Barber calls “McWorld” — civilizations and religious differences are forcing us ever more angrily and dangerously apart. That is what you get when the only two scenarios you have are tribalism and universalism.

There is no instant solution, but there is a responsibility that rests with us all, particularly with religious leaders, to envision a different and more gracious future. As noted earlier, faced with intense religious conflict and persecution, John Locke and Thomas Jefferson devised their particular versions of how different religious groups might live together peaceably. These two leaps of the imagination provided, each in their own way, bridges over the abyss of confrontation across which future generations could walk to a better world.

I have gone rather further than Locke’s doctrine of toleration or the American doctrine of separation of church and state because these no longer suffice for a situation of global conflict without global governance. I have made my case on secular grounds, but note that the secular terms of today--pluralism, liberalism--will never persuade a deeply passionate, indeed fanatically passionate religious believer to subscribe to them, because they are secular ideas. I have therefore given a religious idea, based on the story of Abraham, from which all three great monotheisms--Judaism, Christianity, and Islam--descend. A message of the dignity of difference can be found that is religious and profoundly healing. That is the real miracle of monotheism: not that there is one God and therefore one truth, one faith, one way, but that unity above creates diversity here on earth.

Nothing has proved harder in civilization than seeing God or good or dignity in those unlike ourselves. There are surely many ways of arriving at that generosity of spirit, and each faith may need to find its own way. I propose that the truth at the heart of monotheism is that God is greater than religion, that he is only partially comprehended by any one faith. He is my God, but he is also your God. That is not to say that there are many gods: that is polytheism. And it is not to say that God endorses every act done in his name: a God of yours and mine must be a God of justice standing above both of us, teaching us to make space for one another, to hear one another’s claims, and to resolve them equitably. Only such a God would be truly transcendent. Only such a God could teach mankind to make peace other than by conquest or conversion and as something nobler than practical necessity.

What would such a faith be like? It would be like being secure in my own home and yet moved by the beauty of a foreign place knowing that while it is not my home, it is still part of the glory of the world that is ours. It would be knowing that we are sentences in the story of our people but that there are other stories, each written by God out of the letters of lives bound together in community. Those who are confident of their faith are not threatened but enlarged by the different faiths of others. In the midst of our multiple insecurities, we need now the confidence to recognize the irreducible, glorious dignity of difference.

[wickwoman]

Can you then perceive unworthiness in your brother and not perceive it in yourself? And can you perceive it in yourself and not perceive it in God? ACIM 11, pg. 208

[Nineveh]

1. First pluck the beam out of your own eye

Check

(Dave, have you done that yet?)

2. Then you can see clearly to help your brother

Check

ww, idolity will only lead you to hell, repent.

(Dave, your turn.)

PS, high priest: I asked your witness, you never mentioned Christ and you still deny half the Gospel. You are more like Saul than Paul.

[servent101]

Lighthouse You have no clue what Nineveh believes, you hack! Your twisted idea is not the message, moron. You preach lies, and leave truth absent. And the fact that you're too blind to see that one has to understand the message, for it to be of any use to them is beyond idiocy.

You are sort of right – but my post here 93 of 114
Dave, you ever going to tell Nineveh the message? Or do you know it? She still thinks herself clean, she doesn't need to be cleansed. She is healthy she doesn't need the Physician. is just a slight twist of what Nineveh said to Wickwoman

Dave, you ever going to tell this unsaved woman (Wickwoman) the message? Or do you know it? She still thinks herself clean, she doesn't need to be cleansed. She is healthy she doesn't need the Physician. Post #92 of 114

and I started Post #96 of 114

To All on a more serious note;

So your comments here you hack! Your twisted idea is not the message, moron. You preach lies, and leave truth absent.

Were they a little too quick on a hair pin trigger?

With Christ’s Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

Sybel,
Name the place I have ever said I was "good enough" on my own merit. Or, simply, stop lying.

[wickwoman]

It's true Servent. She thinks herself a big steaming pile of doggy poo. Which explains how she treats everyone else. And, constantly she tells me I think I'm better than her. She must think she has some evidence it's true.

[servent101]

Balder htuhgt a reply would be in order - good post Those who are confident of their faith are not threatened but enlarged by the different faiths of others. In the midst of our multiple insecurities, we need now the confidence to recognize the irreducible, glorious dignity of difference.

To add those who are confident in their faith - they are also detached from the outcome of the struggles we all face - if detachment is understood correctly - our ability is increased greatly - giving us the necessary strength to overcome whatever chrisis is that is almost "planed" for our learning curve -whatever learning curve that may be - each of us is different.

None of us are guarenteed victory, and although people often are destroyed for lack of knowledge, still, in spite of how much knowledge and obedience we acquire there is that occurance where we may suffer and die, beyond our ability to make the best laid plans - but this, to the informed and knowledgeable soul does not matter as a matter of great or upermost importance. Knowing and seeking the presence of God - and in this there is always Victory - if God is with us, who can be against us.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

[Nineveh]

ww,
We all can't be perfect in our own right like you, is/is not god/dess.

[wickwoman]

Whatever is in your mind, Nineveh, that is what you will be - a steaming pile of doggy poo, or the righteousness of God in Christ.

[Nineveh]

Without Christ none are righteous, for all have sinned, yes even you is/is not god/dess.

[wickwoman]

We all have "Christ in you the hope of glory."

[Nineveh]

Sorry, one of the parts you like to ignore says differently:

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

My God is looking at your heart. The heart that is so haughty it even claims to be (and not be) God Himself. You claim God is unknowable. No, He just isn't going to move over and let you usurp His authority. Your "perfect heart" doesn't want to know a God not of your making. You might actually be found guilty of not being as perfect as you claim to be. So I can see the reasons you run and hide. Thing is, we all did/do in our own ways and for our own reasons. Truth is, until you let go of the lie "you will be like God", you will be without Him.

[wickwoman]

Thanks Nineveh. I know you would like me to help you understand. But there's nothing else I can do. I don't have the patience.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Sorry, one of the parts you like to ignore says differently:

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

My God is looking at your heart. The heart that is so haughty it even claims to be (and not be) God Himself. You claim God is unknowable. No, He just isn't going to move over and let you usurp His authority. Your "perfect heart" doesn't want to know a God not of your making. You might actually be found guilty of not being as perfect as you claim to be. So I can see the reasons you run and hide. Thing is, we all did/do in our own ways and for our own reasons. Truth is, until you let go of the lie "you will be like God", you will be without Him.

Its arrogant to claim that you can judge anyone's heart. God
can, but you can't.

Arrogance is one of Paul's "Romans" sins, right up there with
your dreaded homosexuality, (if expressed in a promiscuous
way, I might add.) Makes you no better than those you
spew poison at.

Dave

[Dave Miller]

Balder,

Great post, I actually read it through.

Here's one paragraph for ADD types like me who can't
focus long enough to read that long a post:

"I propose that the truth at the heart of monotheism is that God is greater than religion, that he is only partially comprehended by any one faith. He is my God, but he is also your God. That is not to say that there are many gods: that is polytheism. And it is not to say that God endorses every act done in his name: a God of yours and mine must be a God of justice standing above both of us, teaching us to make space for one another, to hear one another’s claims, and to resolve them equitably. Only such a God would be truly transcendent. Only such a God could teach mankind to make peace other than by conquest or conversion and as something nobler than practical necessity. "

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Its arrogant to claim that you can judge anyone's heart. God
can, but you can't.

Where did I make that claim high priest of pagans?

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by wickwoman

Thanks Nineveh. I know you would like me to help you understand. But there's nothing else I can do. I don't have the patience.

I understand you quite clearly.

You need to understand what God has to say to you.

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Without Christ none are righteous, for all have sinned, yes even you is/is not god/dess. If none are righteous without your messiah, then why are Abraham and Noah called "righteous" by the biblical writers?

[Nineveh]

Z,
Fill in the blanks:

It was not through __________ that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the ________________ that comes by _________ . Romans 4:___

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Z,
Fill in the blanks:
... Save it for Sunday School, Nineveh. It doesn't answer my question...Why were Abraham and Noah called righteous?

Are you claiming that YHWH had a chat with them and disclosed the whole incarnation and atonement thing to them... and it never made it into a single line of OT scripture?

:nono:

[gabriel]

Originally posted by servent101

To All on a more serious note;

Possibly there would be less Christian Schizophrenia if we would learn how to help one another to live the Life worthy of the Calling. Unfortunately the local church pastimes seem to be centered on finding fault with activities such as sex and alcohol - the easy sins to articulate. But faultfinding is more complex, as well as charity, humility, kindness, forgiveness, bearing one another's burdens, fellowship, and brotherly love. If we as a "people" would deal with our own selves, and learn how to help members of the "church" become more than family - to find a way that we could find recreation that would take the place of "worldly activities" and if we could encourage one another, instead of finding fault with the easily articualable sins and letting the more weightier matters of the Law - justice, charity, mercy, fellowship center around not doing the simply articulated sins. This mindset takes over the whole congregation and as Jesus said, a little yeast levels the whole lot. It is this faultfinding and enjoying our own superiority in some simple areas to articulate that causes us to be foiled.

With Christ's Love

Servent101

... that was beautiful... thank you servent101. a christian that actually exhibits christ-like attributes.... how refreshing.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by serpent101

Lighthouse

You are sort of right – but my post here is just a slight twist of what Nineveh said to Wickwoman
Actually, Nineveh said that to Dave, about wickless.:doh:

However, nineveh does not think of herself as clean, without Christ...as wickless does.


and I started Post #96 of 114



So your comments here

Were they a little too quick on a hair pin trigger?

With Satan's Hate

Serpent101
I went back and read that post. I stand by my comments.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by wickwoman

Thanks Nineveh. I know you would like me to help you understand. But there's nothing else I can do. I don't have the patience.
No, she would like you to understand. But you don't want to you vile wickless void. You're like a black hole. There's no light in you, at all.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Its arrogant to claim that you can judge anyone's heart. God
can, but you can't.

Arrogance is one of Paul's "Romans" sins, right up there with
your dreaded homosexuality, (if expressed in a promiscuous
way, I might add.) Makes you no better than those you
spew poison at.

Dave
"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

What does that mean to you?

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Zakath

If none are righteous without your messiah, then why are Abraham and Noah called "righteous" by the biblical writers?
"Whom God has set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God."
-Romans 3:25

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by gabriel

... that was beautiful... thank you servent101. a christian that actually exhibits christ-like attributes.... how refreshing.
Serpent isn't a Christian. He doesn't even believe there's a hell. And you don't know what Christ is like, if you think Serpent's attributes are Christ-like.:nono:

[Frank Ernest]

"I propose that the truth at the heart of monotheism is that God is greater than religion, that he is only partially comprehended by any one faith. He is my God, but he is also your God. That is not to say that there are many gods: that is polytheism. And it is not to say that God endorses every act done in his name: a God of yours and mine must be a God of justice standing above both of us, teaching us to make space for one another, to hear one another’s claims, and to resolve them equitably. Only such a God would be truly transcendent. Only such a God could teach mankind to make peace other than by conquest or conversion and as something nobler than practical necessity. "

God speaks to "equity of claims":
Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,
Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Zakath

Save it for Sunday School, Nineveh. It doesn't answer my question...Why were Abraham and Noah called righteous?

Are you claiming that YHWH had a chat with them and disclosed the whole incarnation and atonement thing to them... and it never made it into a single line of OT scripture?

:nono:

Maybe you should try looking for that verse, it might clear up your confusion.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Where did I make that claim high priest of pagans?

Right here, queen of the damned: "My God is looking at your
heart. The heart that is so haughty..."

djm

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

Right here, queen of the damned: "My God is looking at your
heart. The heart that is so haughty..."

djm

:Brandon: already headed you off at that pass high priest:

"O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh."

What does that mean to you?

I didn't judge her heart. I used her words. Do you believe she really doesn't believe she is (and is not) god in her heart? If so, how dare you be a hypocrite.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Maybe you should try looking for that verse, it might clear up your confusion.

As always, queen of the damned is always ready to act as
inquisitor, but unable to answer the simplest challenges.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

:Brandon: already headed you off at that pass high priest:



I didn't judge her heart. I used her words. Do you believe she really doesn't believe she is (and is not) god in her heart? If so, how dare you be a hypocrite.

I never saw WW post "I have a haughty heart!" Did you?
If so, please provide a pointer, oh queen...

[Nineveh]

Originally posted by Dave Miller

I never saw WW post "I have a haughty heart!" Did you?
If so, please provide a pointer, oh queen...

You never saw her declare herself, "good enough" or declare she is (and is not) god?

You have extremely selective reading habits.

[Dave Miller]

Originally posted by Nineveh

You neve