Romans Chapter 6: An encore presentation! [Archive] - Theology Forum

Sozo

December 9th, 2004, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

Sozo, you and I really do not differ much on interpertation.

Ummm... ok.

:noid: We both know it is faith in Christ that will give us the grace we need. Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, it is the gift of God.But if our faith is that strong, should we be doing his will (the Law) out of love for him, to kind of return love to him? There is so much wrong with your assertions in this question, I do not know where to begin. :dizzy:

Strong faith? What is that? :confused:

Who did God give the Law through? And who did He gave us grace through?

"For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."

Why did God give us the Law?

I have already explained and provided plenty of evidence to show you that the Law was given to reveal that we are sinners, unrighteous, and separated from the life of God. That is it's purpose, to bring you to complete and utter hopelessness. It is not there for you to compare yourself with it, and to attempt to please God through it. The Law is the ministration of death and condemnation, and those who continue to abide by it to be pleasing to God remain separated from God. The righteous live by faith.

"... you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone, but on tablets of human hearts. And such confidence we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter, but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, how shall the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory? For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory on account of the glory that surpasses it. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory. Having therefore such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, and are not as Moses, who used to put a veil over his face that the sons of Israel might not look intently at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a man turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. "

God looks at your attempts to keep the Law as the most blaspemous insult to His Son that is humanly possible. Again, keypurr, the Law reveals your sin, and as stated in Hebrews, if you continue in sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth (the gospel), then there is no more sacrifice for your sin, but only an expectation of judgment! God gave the Law through Moses to the Jews, and when they set it aside they would die without mercy! How much more of an offense is it for those who trample the name of Jesus and insult the Spirit of God's grace!?

"For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?"

If you want to change your behavior, then just DO IT! But, stop bosting about your ability to do so, and stop trying to tell everyone else that they have to meet some standard that you yourself do not meet to be right with God.

Consider this...

Take a look at Romans 2:17-29, and since you believe that the Law has to do with Christians, I will make some minor adjustments without changing Paul's message or intent.

Romans 2:17-29

"But if you bear the name "Christian," and rely upon the Law, and boast in God, and know His will, and approve the things that are essential, being instructed out of the Law, and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one should not steal, do you steal? You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who say one should keep the Sabbath, do you keep the Sabbath? You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For "the name of God is blasphemed among the lost because of you," just as it is written. For indeed salvation is of value, if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your salvation is no salvation. If therefore the lost man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his lostness be regarded as salvation? And will not he who is lost, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and salvation are a transgressor of the Law? For he is not a Christian who is one outwardly; neither is salvation that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Christian who is one inwardly; and salvation is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God."

If the Law is the outworking standard or sign of our salvation, then when the lost meet that standard, they can boast of being no different than we are. When we believe that showing others that we "have it together" or "keep the Law", we offer them very little hope. But, when we show them that we are all on the same level, and that everyones "good works" is as "filthy rags" and that we are totally dependent on Christ, then we give the lost, hope, because anyone can do that!

I suggest you look long and hard at this post. Print it, and read it over and over again, until it sinks in, because it is the best that I can do to squelch your misguided ideas about our relationship with God through the Law.

Lighthouse

December 10th, 2004, 03:49 AM

keypurr

December 10th, 2004, 11:15 AM

Sozo quote:
I have already explained and provided plenty of evidence to show you that the Law was given to reveal that we are sinners, unrighteous, and separated from the life of God. That is it's purpose, to bring you to complete and utter hopelessness. It is not there for you to compare yourself with it, and to attempt to please God through it. The Law is the ministration of death and condemnation, and those who continue to abide by it to be pleasing to God remain separated from God. The righteous live by faith.

If God gave the Law (10 Commandments), and he is unchanging, and Jesus told in Matthew 19:13 to keep them.

If one keeps the law to be saved he does not accept Christ and his grace. That is not the case here. His law is a guideline for our standard of living. It is HIS moral code to do out of love.

I do not boast about my ability to keep his law, any success I have there is from God. I feel his spirit warring with the flesh just like everyone else. Any power to win the battle comes from him.

You seem to think that the Law (10 Commandments) were only for certain people, I think they are for all.

Knight I will read the book you mentioned, thank you.

Lighthouse I speak only of the Ten Commandments not the ceremonial, ritualistic, symbolic ones.

Knight

December 10th, 2004, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by keypurr

If God gave the Law (10 Commandments), and he is unchanging, and Jesus told in Matthew 19:13 to keep them.Well... why would you say He is unchanging?

Afterall... if He gave the 10 commandments to Moses wasn't that a change? Since before He gave the 10 commandments they didn't have the 10 commandments. I am assuming we agree it was the same God before and after the giving of the commandments.

God is a living God and for God to remain righteous He tells us...

Jeremiah 18:7 “The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it, 8 “if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it. 9 “And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it, 10 “if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.

You continue...Knight I will read the book you mentioned, thank you. It's not a book. It's just a short report so its a quick read. Let me know what you think when you finish it. Thanks!

tuxpower

December 10th, 2004, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by keypurr
His law is a guideline for our standard of living.
I was wondering if you could provide some scriptures to support that the law is the guideline for the standard of living for those whose righteousness comes from faith in Christ alone.
Originally posted by keypurr
If God gave the Law (10 Commandments)...

You seem to think that the Law (10 Commandments)...

Lighthouse I speak only of the Ten Commandments not the ceremonial, ritualistic, symbolic ones.
I was not aware that the ceremonial aspects of the law were any less a part of the law than the 10 commandments. There is only one Law Giver. You can’t just keep one part of the law. If you take one part then you have to take it all.

Sozo

December 10th, 2004, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

If God gave the Law (10 Commandments), and he is unchanging, and Jesus told in Matthew 19:13 to keep them.

I'm guessing you meant verse 17, not 13.

"And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."

Let's look at the entire context... (you do believe in context, right?)

And behold, one came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?" And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments." He said to Him, "Which ones?" And Jesus said, "You shall not commit murder; You shall not commit adultery; You shall not steal; You shall not bear false witness; Honor your father and mother; and You shall love your neighbor as yourself." The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?" Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieved; for he was one who owned much property. And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." And when the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, "Then who can be saved?" And looking upon them Jesus said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Jesus used the Law to bring death and condemnation to all who believed that they were righteous through observing the Law.

Did you not read all the evidence I gave you for the purpose of the Law?

Any notion that people had that they were righteous under the Law was laid to rest through Jesus ability to prove that it is impossible for men to have eternal life through the Law.

If one keeps the law to be saved he does not accept Christ and his grace. Do agree with what you just stated? If so, then why did you ask about Jesus telling the man to keep the 10 commandments to receive eternal life?

Earlier you quoted:

Quote from Joe Crews..

Law and grace do not work in competition with each other but in perfect cooperation.

Each one has it's purpose.The law points out sin, and grace saves from sin. Two completely different puposes.The law is the will of God, and grace is the power to do the will of God. This statement is a complete fabrication. There is no biblical evidence to support either contention. The Law was given to lead men to Christ, because they cannot keep it, not so they will keep it. The Law has been fufilled by Jesus in us, and you can not do something that has already been completed.

If you think that God's intent was to give men grace to do the Law, then God has failed miserably. God did not send Jesus so that He could create a group of people who will keep the Law. He came to set men free from the Law so that they would no longer be condemned by it, but saved from it. Because the Law produces death when it reveals sin.We do not obey the law in order to be saved but because we are saved. No flesh can obey the Law, and only a self-righteous, deluded, person believes he can or does.I feel his spirit warring with the flesh just like everyone else. Any power to win the battle comes from him. Uh... helllloooo... The "battle" has been won! Jesus paid the price, and victory was declared!

"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith. And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

If you think that you will win the battle over your flesh and bring it into subjection to the demands of the Law, you are insane.

Do you know what it means to be insane? It means that you keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting to get a different result.
You seem to think that the Law (10 Commandments) were only for certain people, I think they are for all. The Law was to bring ALL men to death... it is the ministry of death and condemnation.

You have not been paying attention, and I would be concerned, if I were you, about your "mental" state, because you keep saying the same things over and over again, and you will never get a different result than the truth.

"For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ."

:think: Think about that, keypurr!

keypurr

December 10th, 2004, 10:43 PM

Sozo, please do not assume I say that the law will give you salvation. It won't. I know it is faith in Christ. However faith without works is dead. As Jesus said in Matt., he was quoting the commandments. Great is the man who teaches them he says. But he also tell us it will not save us. Why do you keep tell me I claime salvation by works. I do not say that. What I do think is that he (Christ) wanted us to write them in our hearts and keep them. Revelations say he is coming for thoes "Who KEEP the commandments of God and the Faith of Jesus Christ". That is what I am trying to do in my heart, for him. By the grace of God his spirit within me will guide me into HIS will, not mine. I know you cannot EARN salvation. I am not under the Law, but that does not mean I should not keep it out of love. After all, he did pay the price for our sins. In the flesh this is a lifelong battle, in the spirit we can overcome with his help. I am not good with words Sozo, but you and I have the same intent, to please him who died for us.

tuxpower
Christ never encouraged the keeping of the ceremonial laws, only the Ten Commandments. I suspect they were known in the garden of Eden. But that is another thread.

Lighthouse, to keep them, you must know them. You don't. If Christ is running your life, then live it as HE DID. He came to do the will of his Father. Matt. 19 points to the TEN COMMANDMENTS ONLY. Christ kept them, he taught them and he is coming back to get thoes who keep them. that should sound a bell as to what he wants from us out of love.

Rev 22:14 [B]Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life,[\B] and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Why would this be recorded if it was not important?

Lighthouse

December 10th, 2004, 10:52 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

Lighthouse I speak only of the Ten Commandments not the ceremonial, ritualistic, symbolic ones.
The Sabbath was a symbolic commandment. For it pointed to Christ who is our rest.

Lighthouse

December 10th, 2004, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

Lighthouse, to keep them, you must know them. You don't.
Excuse me? Are you saying that I do not know the ten commandments?

If Christ is running your life, then live it as HE DID.
Buzz! Wrong! Christ is not running my life. He is living my life. I am not the one who lives, He is!

He came to do the will of his Father.
And He did His Father's will, by dying for us so that we might have faith and be saved by that faith, so we might have His life!

Matt. 19 points to the TEN COMMANDMENTS ONLY. Christ kept them, he taught them and he is coming back to get thoes who keep them. that should sound a bell as to what he wants from us out of love.
this is not about keeping the commandments, on our own. He keeps them in us. So they are kept in us by the nature of Him who dwells in us. We are not the ones who work the commandments. They are kept, because Christ lives in us! No other reason!

keypurr

December 10th, 2004, 11:20 PM

Lighthouse quote: this is not about keeping the commandments, on our own. He keeps them in us. So they are kept in us by the nature of Him who dwells in us. We are not the ones who work the commandments. They are kept, because Christ lives in us! No other reason!

He gives US the power to keep them in spirit. :thumb:

For your information, the Sabbath was know before the Ten Commandments were given. It was made part of the commandments. Now if Christ is living your life, why are you not keeping HIS Sabbath? As HE DID.

The reason why I said you don't know the ten commandments is because you keep joining them to the ceremonial laws. Seperate them, as Christ did. When the curtin in the temple was torn from top to bottom the ceremonial laws were wiped out.

Christ did more than die for us and his Father. He OBEYED HIM. He taught us to do the same. Grace does not blot out obediance, it just forgives it. Christ taught the LAWS.

THANK GOD HE KEPT THEM SO HE COULD BE A PERFECT SACRIFICE FOR US.

Lighthouse

December 10th, 2004, 11:28 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

He gives US the power to keep them in spirit. :thumb:

For your information, the Sabbath was know before the Ten Commandments were given. It was made part of the commandments. Now if Christ is living your life, why are you not keeping HIS Sabbath? As HE DID.
I rest in Him, for He is my rest.

The reason why I said you don't know the ten commandments is because you keep joining them to the ceremonial laws. Seperate them, as Christ did. When the curtin in the temple was torn from top to bottom the ceremonial laws were wiped out.
There are ceremonial laws in the ten commandments. Well, one anyway. Also, the law is not seperate. And priests, who worked in the temple, did not observe the Sabbath by not working, as the ten commandments said to. Do you know why? The reason is because the rules for priests were different, and they were to work in the temple, on the Sabbath. And Gentiles were never told to keep the Sabbath.

Christ did more than die for us and his Father. He OBEYED HIM. He taught us to do the same. Grace does not blot out obediance, it just forgives it. Christ taught the LAWS.
We obey through Christ, because Christ obeys, as He lives in us.

THANK GOD HE KEPT THEM SO HE COULD BE A PERFECT SACRIFICE FOR US.
Thank God He kept them? He is God! That is the only way He could keep the law, perfectly! No one else ever has! No one else can! Only Christ can! And only He does!

daniel

December 11th, 2004, 12:48 PM

Thank God He kept them? He is God! That is the only way He could keep the law, perfectly! No one else ever has! No one else can! Only Christ can! And only He does!

How do you come to this conclusion? It seems to me that 2/3's of the angels have been keeping God's law ever since sin started, while only 1/3 have failed. If the two thirds haven't been keeping it all this time then all angels would be sinners and we know that isn't true. So, God isn't the only one capable of keeping His law. God's law isn't impossible for anyone besides those of the Godhead to keep and 2/3's of the angels have proven this to be so.

It just happened to be that sin entered the human family here on earth while only two people existed, thus sin spread throughout the earth. That means we have a predeliction to sin because we are all ancestors of those two people, not that we must sin. What would have happened on earth if there had been 10,000 people alive and only two had sinned, would that mean that everyone would have been a sinner or have a predeliction to sin? Not at all. The experience of the angels shows that sin doesn't have to happen.

I don't find this idea that we must sin, and that only God can keep His own law to have any real basis in fact at all. Show me one verse in the Bible that says we must sin. Not one that says we all have, but one that says we must. Show me one verse that says continued sinning is a necessary condition for a human being.

tuxpower

December 11th, 2004, 01:04 PM

Originally posted by keypurr
tuxpower
Christ never encouraged the keeping of the ceremonial laws, only the Ten Commandments. I suspect they were known in the garden of Eden. But that is another thread.
Jesus NEVER encouraged keeping any part of the law other than the ten commandments?

“When He had come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed Him. And behold, a leper came and worshiped Him, saying, "Lord, if You are willing, You can make me clean."

Then Jesus put out His hand and touched him, saying, "I am willing; be cleansed." Immediately his leprosy was cleansed.

And Jesus said to him, "See that you tell no one; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."

I don't remember this as being in the 10 commandments.

Originally posted by keypurr
His law is a guideline for our standard of living. It is HIS moral code to do out of love.

Please provide scriptures references as to the verses that support the law being the guideline for the standard of living for those whose righteousness comes from faith in Christ alone and His death, burial, and resurrection.

It seems like you love God keypurr, but it seems like you are trying to pay God back, even though he offers salvation freely. If you love God, then don’t try to keep the law to pay Him back, but rather put 100% of your faith in Christ for your righteousness. That’s when you will please Him.

“Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.” (The law) “Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised,” (Keep the law) “Christ will profit you nothing. And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

God wants you to realize your utter inability to keep the law, any aspect of it, and put your faith in Christ alone for righteousness – always. As a Christian, you are not identified with the law any more but rather you are identified with Christ.

As soon as you put yourself under the law, any aspect of it, then it defines your life. When you are identified with the law, that means you can be identified as a liar, a murder, an adulterer…

“Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

These are the works of someone who is under the law, some who identifies themselves with the law (10 commandments). That is why the gospel is such good news! Since we know that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” and that “where there is no law there is no transgression” and that “if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” then these things can not be true of you! Your spirit has been made righteous. You confessed your sins to be cleansed of your unrighteousness and to receive Christ’s righteousness.

Originally posted by keypurr
He gives US the power to keep them in spirit.
No. He gives us the fruit of the spirit, which is not the 10 commandments. They are “love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law."

Concentrating on trying not to break the 10 commandments only sets you up for failure. Your focus should not be on works of the law, but rather on the grace that God provides through our faith in the work that Christ has finished.

It's like if you are golfing, and you put all of your focus on not hitting the ball into the water. Your focus is on the water hazard and what happens? You hit your ball right into the hazard. But, if you instead focus on the target and ignore the water hazard, you hit a nice shot and avoid the hazard.

The law is the hazard, for it brings condemnation and death. Christ is the target, for His righeousness brings freedom and life abundant.

Sozo

December 11th, 2004, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by daniel

Show me one verse in the Bible that says we must sin. Not one that says we all have, but one that says we must. Show me one verse that says continued sinning is a necessary condition for a human being.

"I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "You shall not covet." But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead."

The Law reveals what is already there. You have no choice not to sin. Under the Law, you must sin, because you have no ability to do otherwise.

daniel

December 11th, 2004, 02:22 PM

The Law reveals what is already there. You have no choice not to sin. Under the Law, you must sin, because you have no ability to do otherwise.

That verse doesn't say we must sin. All it says is that the law reveals what is in us that is sinful. If the law says we must sin then all the angels must be sinners too for they too are under the law, but they aren't. If they weren't subject to the law of God the minority of them couldn't have broken it and sinned.

keypurr

December 11th, 2004, 10:56 PM

Lighthouse quote: There are ceremonial laws in the ten commandments. Well, one anyway.
:think: Which one, I know of none.

Sozo quote: If you think that God's intent was to give men grace to do the Law, then God has failed miserably. God did not send Jesus so that He could create a group of people who will keep the Law. He came to set men free from the Law so that they would no longer be condemned by it, but saved from it. Because the Law produces death when it reveals sin.

Sozo, maybe my wording is not telling what I think. My intent is that as long as we have God's grace, (forgiveness,) he will not take away the spirit from within us. Though we are free from the Law, we know that God intended his commandments to be kept in the OT. Christ did not do away with them, he taught them. But he taught that it is not the letter of the law that he wants, but the intent of the law. Love God with all your heartt and love your neighbor as yourself. That is what the commandments teach. Let me repeat myself one more time, I KNOW that it is FAITH that brings salvation, but I think that faith without works is meanless. The works is Love for God and Love for Man. Faith in Christ brings responsibility to love.

Tuxpower quote: Please provide scriptures references as to the verses that support the law being the guideline for the standard of living for those whose righteousness comes from faith in Christ alone and His death, burial, and resurrection.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life,[\B] and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Only look and you will find others.

Concentrating on trying not to break the 10 commandments only sets you up for failure. Your focus should not be on works of the law, but rather on the grace that God provides through our faith in the work that Christ has finished.
Tuxpower, I focus my attention on God and his love, and on Christ, his son, who paid a price that I may have life. [B]Commandment keeping is not attempted for salvation or gain, but because I believe it is what he wants from me. What I do, I do for him, not me. I feel very content with my relationship with the creator. I have never been content with the "so called" churches of today, that do not teach his laws. rather they teach traditions of men.

Lighthouse

December 12th, 2004, 02:08 AM

Originally posted by daniel

How do you come to this conclusion? It seems to me that 2/3's of the angels have been keeping God's law ever since sin started, while only 1/3 have failed. If the two thirds haven't been keeping it all this time then all angels would be sinners and we know that isn't true. So, God isn't the only one capable of keeping His law. God's law isn't impossible for anyone besides those of the Godhead to keep and 2/3's of the angels have proven this to be so.
:darwinsm:

It just happened to be that sin entered the human family here on earth while only two people existed, thus sin spread throughout the earth. That means we have a predeliction to sin because we are all ancestors [descendants]* of those two people, not that we must sin. What would have happened on earth if there had been 10,000 people alive and only two had sinned, would that mean that everyone would have been a sinner or have a predeliction to sin? Not at all. The experience of the angels shows that sin doesn't have to happen.
*correction mine.
Prove that the angels left, after Satan's fall, have kept God's rules, perfectly.

I don't find this idea that we must sin, and that only God can keep His own law to have any real basis in fact at all. Show me one verse in the Bible that says we must sin. Not one that says we all have, but one that says we must. Show me one verse that says continued sinning is a necessary condition for a human being.
You're new, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I do not say that we must sin. In fact, I say that Christians don't sin [by defenition]. But I do know that we fall, sometimes. And, if you will simply pay attention to what I said, you will, hopefully, get a clue.:doh:

Lighthouse

December 12th, 2004, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by keypurr

:think: Which one, I know of none.
The Sabbath. I've gone over this already.

tuxpower

December 12th, 2004, 01:26 PM

keypurr,

Has ever God changed the way He deals with men?

daniel

December 12th, 2004, 09:15 PM

Prove that the angels left, after Satan's fall, have kept God's rules, perfectly.

Ahhh, well, you're the one postulating that all angels have sinned. As this flies in the face of what all Christians have believed for many, many centuries, and the Jews before us, then it's up to you to prove your point. The burden of proof is on you, not me.

Lighthouse

December 12th, 2004, 09:23 PM

Originally posted by daniel

Ahhh, well, you're the one postulating that all angels have sinned. As this flies in the face of what all Christians have believed for many, many centuries, and the Jews before us, then it's up to you to prove your point. The burden of proof is on you, not me.
The angels don't have any law. And we know that the angels who are currently in heaven have not rejected God, But that doesn't mean, and there is no scriptural evidence, that no angels since the original "1/3" have done so. It is possible. I never said it was for sure. But it is possible. However, seeing that angels aren't humans, they probably haven't eaten shrimp, or pork...since they proobably don't have to eat, but they may have. It was never a rule for them, even when it was a rule for the Jews. And if it is possible for "1/3" of the angels to reject God, it is possible for the other angels to do so. Anyway, the angels who are still in heaven do not have human traits, i.e., "sinful desires." We are the ones who desire to lust, murder, and any number of other things we call sin. The angels don't. The only thing they may do is lash out in anger, the way the original "1/3" did. And there is no evidence that it hasn't happened since. And it is possible. That's all I'm saying.

keypurr

December 12th, 2004, 10:24 PM

tuxpower quote: Has ever God changed the way He deals with men?
WOW, what a great question. I think yes. When man could not keep his first covenant, he made a better one. One of Faith and Love not works.

Lighthouse conserning the Sabbath, if you read the commandment as it is recorded, it says Remember the Sabbath, then it go to tell you why. When you keep HIS seventh day sabbath you tell him that you know he is the creator of all. It is the only commandment that states totaly who the Law is from. The Sabbath was honored in the desert by the nation BEFORE the Law was given. Remember the bread from heaven, on the sixth day they had to gather for two days because of the Sabbath. All the commandments are important, but I think the Sabbath one is a little special. Now don't think that I am promoting WORKS for salvation, I am not. But I know that God made this world and everything in it through his son. My faith is in him and the Sabbath is one way that I tell him I know who he is.

Knight I have read and reread the article by Bob Hill that you posted. I find it very interesting and I agree with it. Theology can be deep and sometime conflicting when you do not understand it all. thank you for pointing it out to me.

Lighthouse, Angels do sin, that means there is a Law in Heaven. Men and Angles will be judged by the law. It is only GRACE that can save them or us.

Tuxpower quote: It seems like you love God keypurr, but it seems like you are trying to pay God back, even though he offers salvation freely. If you love God, then don’t try to keep the law to pay Him back, but rather put 100% of your faith in Christ for your righteousness. That’s when you will please Him.

My friend no one can EARN righteousness. That is what grace will do for us who accept Christ as God's son and our savour. But I find no burden in loving him and trying to please him in what I think is HIS will. I think I dance to his drum beat, not man's. I preach a saviour risen by the glory of his father. I seek forgiveness for my weakness and try to live as he did. Christ magnified the law and wrote it in my heart.

Psalm 1
1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.
4The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Lighthouse

December 12th, 2004, 10:30 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

Lighthouse conserning the Sabbath, if you read the commandment as it is recorded, it says Remember the Sabbath, then it go to tell you why. When you keep HIS seventh day sabbath you tell him that you know he is the creator of all. It is the only commandment that states totaly who the Law is from. The Sabbath was honored in the desert by the nation BEFORE the Law was given. Remember the bread from heaven, on the sixth day they had to gather for two days because of the Sabbath.
I know this.

Lighthouse, Angels do sin, that means there is a Law in Heaven. Men and Angles will be judged by the law. It is only GRACE that can save them or us.
Can you provide the evidence for the idea that there is a law in heaven? the only rule I can see, if you want to call it a law, is that they are not to reject God, as the "1/3" did.

keypurr

December 12th, 2004, 10:45 PM

Lighthuse question: Can you provide the evidence for the idea that there is a law in heaven?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Psalm 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Jude 1: 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Matt. 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thought for today, where there is SIN, there is LAW, for sin is the transgression of law.

Lighthouse

December 12th, 2004, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

Lighthouse question: Can you provide the evidence for the idea that there is a law in heaven?
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Psalm 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

Jude 1: 6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Matt. 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Revelation 12:7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I get is that God commands His angels to do things. But my argument is more about whether or not any angels have sinned since the 1/3. Because daniel seems to think that none have.

Thought for today, where there is SIN, there is LAW, for sin is the transgression of law.
Is that a paraphrase of 1 John 3:4:
"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."
or the reciprocal of Romans 4:15:
"Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."?

Sozo

December 12th, 2004, 11:54 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

Can you provide the evidence for the idea that there is a law in heaven? Don't you remember lighthouse, where God told the angels that they should "Honour thy father and thy mother"?

:chuckle:

Lighthouse

December 13th, 2004, 04:20 AM

Originally posted by Sozo

Don't you remember lighthouse, where God told the angels that they should "Honour thy father and thy mother"?

:chuckle:
Is that where he told them not to commit adultery?:eek:

Anyway, keypurr, why do you think God didn't have Cain put to death for murdering Abel?

keypurr

December 13th, 2004, 04:34 PM

Lighthouse, where did the Angels come from? How were they created? If there is no Law and Order in Heaven, how could some angels sin. Man was created a LITTLE lower than the angels, who knows what processed was used. Were they made from dust also? How could some be Fallen if there is no law and order to fall from?

Stupid questions that you can't answer. Neither can Sozo or I.

However we do know that some sort of commandments are used.

Lighthouse

December 14th, 2004, 12:33 AM

Originally posted by keypurr

Lighthouse, where did the Angels come from? How were they created? If there is no Law and Order in Heaven, how could some angels sin. Man was created a LITTLE lower than the angels, who knows what processed was used. Were they made from dust also? How could some be Fallen if there is no law and order to fall from?
I didn't say there wasn't any order in Heaven. Just that the angels are not subject to laws, as humans are [Christians once were]. They can be face to face with God, unlike us...and so they only have one standard to live by. And that is to not reject or deny God. Think about it.

Stupid questions that you can't answer. Neither can Sozo or I.
See above.

However we do know that some sort of commandments are used.
We do? How so? What scriptures tell you this?

tuxpower

December 14th, 2004, 07:47 AM

Originally posted by keypurr
I think yes.
Would you also agree that God's plan was to bring the gospel to Israel, and to have them take the gospel to the rest of the world?

philosophizer

December 14th, 2004, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by keypurr

Lighthouse, where did the Angels come from? How were they created? If there is no Law and Order in Heaven, how could some angels sin. Man was created a LITTLE lower than the angels, who knows what processed was used. Were they made from dust also? How could some be Fallen if there is no law and order to fall from?

Stupid questions that you can't answer. Neither can Sozo or I.

However we do know that some sort of commandments are used.

Man didn't have any kind of law in the beginning. Laws came after we fell. Before that it was as simple as it could be: obey God. I don't think it's appropriate to call that Law.

tuxpower

December 14th, 2004, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by philosophizer

Man didn't have any kind of law in the beginning. Laws came after we fell. Before that it was as simple as it could be: obey God. I don't think it's appropriate to call that Law.
Could that in itself be considered law? Not as we know the law, but violation - not obeying God - still meant that Adam and Eve sinned didn't it?

What are your thoughts Philo?

philosophizer

December 14th, 2004, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by tuxpower

Could that in itself be considered law? Not as we know the law, but violation - not obeying God - still meant that Adam and Eve sinned didn't it?

What are your thoughts Philo?

My thoughts are that when you only have one law it isn't really a law. It's just the way it is.

I think that what we call law comes from the way we over-complexify and confuse ourselves. Did God really mean what He said? Will I surely die? Law is an attempt at managing a complexity we cannot, ourselves, climb back out of. But what Adam and Eve had was not complex. It was one simple command that they still disobeyed. It might seem right for us, looking back, to call that command a "law." But I don't think that's the right way of looking at things.

Either way, it's not really an important issue-- what word to use.

Lighthouse

December 14th, 2004, 09:53 PM

I like seeing this on the active page.

keypurr

December 15th, 2004, 06:53 PM

Lighthouse consider this vere again

Psalm 103:20 Bless the LORD, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word.

This is why I think there is /are some kind of commandments in heaven. This would establish law and order there. This is only a theory, I have not given it much attention. Just something to ponder over.

tuxpower

December 16th, 2004, 12:08 PM

Other translations word it this way:

Bless the LORD, you His angels, Who excel in strength, who do His word, Heeding the voice of His word.

JustAChristian

December 16th, 2004, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

vs 1...What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?

Paul has just spent the previous 5 chapters proving that ALL men are guilty of sin (chapter 1); That they cannot use the Law to compare themselves against one another, because the Law is what proves ALL men are guilty of sin (chapter 2); That righteousness (freedom fron sin) comes by faith alone in Jesus Christ, and not by the works of the Law (chapter 3); That God chose Abraham as the father of all who believe He will give us this righteousness as a result of Christ's sacrifice for sin so that we are now justified by faith, and not by works (chapter 4); and even though all men are sinners because of the disobedience of one man (Adam), yet all men may receive life because of the obedience of only One Man (Jesus).

Romans 5 concludes: "And the Law came in that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Once again, God used the Law to prove ALL are sinners, and yet God's grace through righteousness, that is imparted by faith, is greater than man's sin.

Therefore, the obvious question in Romans 6:1

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace might increase?

This is a rhetorical question, because Paul already knows the answer. But, it is an obvious question based on his conclusion in chapter 5. (paraphrased) "Why not keep sinning so that the grace of God (which is greater) will increase all the more?"

Paul makes the answer abundantly clear:

vs. 2 "May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? "

Paul is emphatic! We have died to sin, and therefore it is impossible to live in sin! Not some legalistic recommendation that you shouldn't be sinning, but a clear statement of the impossibility of the event.

Paul goes on to explain why it is impossible for you to live in sin.

vs. 3 "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"

Anyone who has come to Christ by faith, has been baptized into His body, and has shared in His death (and resurrection).

vs. 4 "Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

This "newness of life" is not a changed life, but an exchanged life. We give Him our life, and He gives us His!

vs. 5 "For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection"

When Jesus died to sin, so did we, and the life that Jesus has is the very life of God, and so is ours!

vs. 6 "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with (destroyed), that we should no longer be slaves to sin;"

Your "old self" is who you were in Adam, in sin, and dead (separated) from/to God. Jesus crucified our old self with Him, to separate us from the body of sin, so that we are no longer it's slave.

vs. 7 "for he who has died is freed from sin."

Have you died with Christ? If so, then you ARE free from sin.

vs. 8-9 "Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him."

Jesus died to sin, and those of us who died with Christ are also dead to sin; However, we have also been made alive in Him, and death is no longer master over us.

vs. 10-11 "For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus."

Why must we consider this? Because we need to renew our minds with that which is true, as Paul has already proved we are indeed dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ!

vs. 12-13 "Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body that you should obey its lusts, and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God."

So now, because you are "free from sin", it is ludicrous for you to allow sin to reign in your body by obeying it, rather than obeying righteousness by faith in Christ. Are you going to go back and undo all that Paul just explained from chapter 1 until now, and obey the Law for righteousness and once again declare yourself a sinner, thus obeying sin? Which is it? Are you going to go back and present the members of your body to a system that proves you a sinner, or are you going to present yourself to God as what you are... an instrument of righteousness? Are you in sin or in Christ? Are you dead or alive?

vs. 14 "For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law, but under grace"

Sin has lost it's power in your life, not because you are obeying the Law, but because you have died to it through the Christ's sacrifice, and you are now alive in the Spirit, by grace through righteousness.

vs. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Again, Paul asks a rhetorical question, and once again he already knows the answer...

vs. 16 "Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?"

If you are going to live according to the Law, then you will be proved a sinner, and you will be a slave to sin, and the result is death. However, you can obey the gospel of faith alone in Christ, which results in righteousness, and be it's slave.

vs. 17-18 "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

What is the form of teaching? It is the gospel!! The gospel of Jesus Christ sets you free from sin, and makes you a slave of righteousness. You can no longer become a slave of sin, if you are in Christ Jesus.

vs. 19 "I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification."

Oh how the legalists love to pervert this verse
perhaps it is their weak flesh, but Paul is trying to make a point about who you are going to serve; either the Law which results in proving your sin, or righteousness through faith in Christ which results in your sanctification (being set apart from death).

Here is where so many get confused, and why so many go astray from the truth. Presenting your members is not behavior modification through obedience to the Law, because if it is then Paul just contradicted his entire arguments from chapter 1 until now. No, Paul is showing us that we need to present our members to righteousness which comes by faith, rather than trying to gain God's favor with them through keeping the Law. "Walking in the flesh" is not "sinning", it is believing that God approves of you through the deeds of the flesh.

vs. 20 "For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness."

When we were in Adam... dead, and separated from the life of God, there was never a possibility of ever doing anything right. We were free from all righteousness.

vs. 21 "Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death."

All your works, deeds, etc. were pointless, and now that you are in Christ you can clearly see that your own efforts fell short of pleasing God, and it shames you to think that you could actually gain his favor through the Law. The only thing you could produce in Adam, was death.

vs. 22 "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life."

Having concluded that in you there dwells no good thing, and that apart from God's righteousness you are without hope, you have come to Christ by faith, and have been set free from sin, where there is true benefit and true life!

vs. 23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. "

Which will you choose? To live under a system that can only produce death, or to accept God's free gift of life?

vs. 17-18 "But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

What is the form of teaching? It is the gospel!! The gospel of Jesus Christ sets you free from sin, and makes you a slave of righteousness. You can no longer become a slave of sin, if you are in Christ Jesus.

I believe you are correct in saying the teaching is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation (Romans 1:16), but I do not feel you correctly present "the form of doctrine" as Paul does. The gospel sets us free but how? When we obey from the heart (Romans 1:5; Hebrews 5:8-9). What must we obey? The form of doctrine. The doctrine is the gospel, but the form spoken of is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ spoken earlier of in verses 3-5. When one is dead to sin, buried in baptism and rises to walk in newness of life they obey the form. Baptism is then the essential act of faith and obedience into eternal life (Mark 16:16; Acts 2:28; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; 1 Peter 1:22-23).

JustAChristian :angel:

Lighthouse

December 16th, 2004, 02:47 PM

Where ya been, JustAHeretic?

Meshullam

December 16th, 2004, 07:36 PM

I believe that the only commandment to which we are held accountable is to love one another. This fulfills the righteous requirement of the Law.

Romans 8:3-4
For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,

4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

John 15:12"This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you.

Romans 13:8 owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

9For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

This is accomplished by walking in the Spirit, who reproduces the righteousness of Christ in us, (Galatian 5:16)
just as we have been made the righteousness of God in Christ (II Cor. 5:21)

Righteousness is most assuredly not produced in us by putting ourselves under obligation to keep the legal mandate of such as the terms of the Mosaic covenant, which results in the escalation of sin:

[Romans 7: 5 --- For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. ]

In Romans 8:3, Paul made it clear that what the Law (of Moses) could NOT do, (deal decisively with the inward "law of sin and death", the "body of sin" --- the argument is developed in 7 --- ) God DID, by sending Christ in the likeness of sinful flesh, the body of sin, both a propitiatory sacrifice for sins and concerning the thing SIN, itself. He CONDEMNED (to death) sin in the flesh."

Remember, Jesus carried our sins in His body to the tree. [I Peter 2: 24 and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. ]

cf. Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

The body of sin was condemned and crucified in Christ. (Rm. 8:3) As a result, if we have been baptized into Christ, our old sinful selves were co-crucified with Him so that the body of sin might be "shut down," so we would no longer be a slave to it. for (6:7) "he who has died is "declared righteous" from sin."

God effectively dealt with the root causes of sinful acting, so that we are no longer under the tutorship of the Law, but free in Christ, with ONE commandment, to live in loving obedience to Him, manifest in loving behavior toward others. [Romans 13:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter. ]

Galatians 5:13 "For you were called to freedom [from the Law] ...brethren, only do not use your freedom as an opportunity, ( lit. a base of operations in war), for the flesh, but through love serve one another."

For the flesh and the Spirit are in conflict with one another. This is not conceptual conflict, but in the area of what we think, say, feel and DO. So, walk in the Spirit and you will not carry out the desires of the flesh. That is the MEANS of a holy walk. On the best authority.

How? It starts with baptism into Christ's death and resurrection (death brings freedom from sin, life brings righteousness, walking in "new life.") We look BACK, in faith, to the work of CHrist for BOTH eternal redemption and deliverance from sin's power in us through the application of the work of Christ in us, today, by the Spirit. Paul says it best:
[Romans 6:11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. ]

consider: reckon the same word Paul used in Rm. 4 to describe righteousness counted to Abraham on the basis of his faith. "Count it as true." It is.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. ]

Yield myself to Him, as one alive from the dead. And my body to Him as instruments of His righteousness. (contrast with yielding myself and my body to sin, for obedience.) It's a walk of love, grounded in faith and surrender to Him.

Blessings

Sozo

December 16th, 2004, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by Meshullam

I believe that the only commandment to which we are held accountable is to love one another. This fulfills the righteous requirement of the Law.

What do you mean by "held accountable"?

I thought Jesus fulfills the righteous requirement of the Law in us. Is that not true?

keypurr

December 16th, 2004, 09:31 PM

Good pickup on his words Sozo. He is as bad as me when it comes to words.

I think he means what we will judged by. Then grace will be given to forgive us. For we are no longer under the law, but grace. If we were not sinners we would not need grace. Love is fullfilment of the law and I think we are all suppose to try and fullfill it, as Christ did. Should we reflect God's love for us to others? Of course we should.

Lighthouse

December 17th, 2004, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Meshullam

I believe that the only commandment to which we are held accountable is to love one another. This fulfills the righteous requirement of the Law.
Uh, how about loving God?:think:

And, as Sozo said, doesn't Christ keep these in us?

SteveT

December 17th, 2004, 05:11 PM

Sozo:

"What do you mean by "held accountable"?

I thought Jesus fulfills the righteous requirement of the Law in us. Is that not true? "

Indeed. He fulfills the righteous requirements of the Law IN us - not FOR us so we don't have to. He does it by the Spirit He gave to us, to indwell us and make us holy, if we will but submit to the Spirit and allow Him to do that work in us and through us - that is, if we walk by the Spirit:

" ... in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:4

As Paul says right here in Romans 6:

[16] Do you not know that if you yield yourselves to any one as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? ...
[19] I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. ...
[22] But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.

The "golden chain" - obedience leads to righteousness, righteousness to sanctification, and the end of sanctification is eternal life. No shortcuts allowed. :)

Sozo

December 17th, 2004, 06:41 PM

Steve T... you are self-righteous pig.

Sozo

December 17th, 2004, 07:18 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

Steve T... you are self-righteous pig.

By the way, Steve, as badly as I feel for having to call you a self-righteous pig, it is something that I have to do. If I did not refer to you as a self-righteous pig, I would not be obeying God, and you made it clear of the importance of doing just that.

Maybe I should explain why you are a self-righteous pig, so that you can change your mind, and become the righteousness of God in Christ.

You stated:
...obedience leads to righteousness We'll Steve, yes it does. Those who hear the message of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and obey it (which is by grace through faith), then they are made righteous, because if you had read your bible, you would know that righteousness is a gift! Would you like to receive the gift of righteousness by coming to Christ by grace through faith and put away your self-righteous pride filled attitude?

You also stated:
righteousness to sanctification Steve... are you aware that sanctification literally means to be set apart? Those who have come to Christ by grace through faith are set apart from the world and unto God. Sanctification is a work of God so that He can give you His life and set you apart from those who know not God. Would you like to come to Christ and be set apart from being a self-righteous pig?

You also stated:..the end of sanctification is eternal life No Steve, that is a perversion of what Paul stated. Should I refer to you as a perverted self-righteous pig? The outcome of sanctification is eternal life, because God has set apart those who have come to Christ by faith from sin, and therefore they are qualified to receive His life.

Clete

December 17th, 2004, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by keypurr

Sozo, you and I really do not differ much on interpertation. We both know it is faith in Christ that will give us the grace we need. But if our faith is that strong, should we be doing his will (the Law) out of love for him, to kind of return love to him? Not to be saved, or gain favors of any type. But just out of respect for his wishes.
In the words of Miles J. Stanford....

"First of all, it is utterly futile to expect a believer, by means of consecration, surrender or commitment, to step from his ground of substitution as spoken of in Romans 3-5 on to that of the deeper truths in Romans 8 and 12:1.

There is the all-important area of identification truth in Romans 6,7 that cannot be skipped over. Every hungry-hearted Christian yearns to be fully consecrated and conditioned for an effective life and service. And from the very outset, until hard experience teaches him otherwise, the well-meaning believer thinks that since he has the will to obey God and to be what He intends for him, he should attempt to carry it out through personal consecrated effort with His help. He seeks to struggle forward via the love motive; i.e., He did for me, so I must do for Him.

The following two thoughts by Andrew Murray will help here. "A superficial acquaintance with God’s plan leads to the view that while justification is God’s work, by faith in Christ, sanctification (growth) is our work, to be performed under the influence of the gratitude we feel for the deliverance we have experienced, and by the aid of the Holy Spirit. But the earnest Christian soon finds how little gratitude can supply the power. When he thinks that more prayer will supply it, he finds that, indispensable as prayer is, it is not enough. Often the believer struggles hopelessly for years, until he listens to the teaching of the Spirit, as He glorifies Christ again, and reveals Christ, our Sanctification, to be appropriated by faith alone…

"God works to will, and He is ready to work to do (Phil. 2:13), but, alas! many Christians misunderstand this. They think because they have the will it is enough, and that now they are able to do. This is not so. The new will is a permanent gift, an attribute of the new nature. The power to do is not a permanent gift, but must be each moment received from the Holy Spirit. It is the man who is conscious of his own impotence as a believer who will learn that by the Holy Spirit he can lead a holy life." Now and then one is called on to speak out against something that is good in order to present His best. The love motive from which to live the Christian life and serve the Lord is good; it is high, but it is not adequate—especially because it is not the motivation underwritten by Him.

As growing Christians, it is time for us to see the necessity of going beyond the love motive to the life motive. "For to me to live is Christ" (Phil. 1:21). Our consecration, surrender or commitment will never hold up if it is our responding to Him from any other motivation than the response of His life in us. Yielding to Him on any different basis will simply amount to our trying to live for Him in the self-life. And even if that were possible, He could never accept it, since in that realm there dwells no good thing (Rom. 7:18), plus the fact that He has already taken the old life to the cross and crucified it (see Rom. 6:6; Gal. 2:20; II Tim. 2:11; I Pet. 2:24)."

Taken from Principles of Spiritual Growth (http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/goodnews/growth.html) by Miles J. Stanford

Resting in Him,
Clete

Sozo

December 17th, 2004, 10:44 PM

I need to read my Murray books again!

Thanks, Clete!

:thumb:

SteveT

December 18th, 2004, 07:51 AM

“By the way, Steve, as badly as I feel for having to call you a self-righteous pig, it is something that I have to do. If I did not refer to you as a self-righteous pig, I would not be obeying God, and you made it clear of the importance of doing just that. “

Self righteous? No, Sozo, I have no righteousness of my own at all. The righteousness I have comes from the Spirit dwelling within me as a believer, the greatest gift of God. It is the Holy Spirit Himself which makes me righteous. Paul shows clearly in Romans 7 how man on his own power may perceive the righteous requirements of the law, but is incapable of keeping it because in the flesh he lacks the power to do so. I am no different, and God help me I pray to never claim otherwise. But the good news – the gospel – is that we are not on our own any more – we have the very power of God Himself in the person of the Holy Spirit available to us through faith:

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”

You blaspheme by denigrating the gospel and proclaiming it powerless to transform your life, Sozo. Listen to what Paul says about the power the believer has in the Holy Spirit:

“[3] For though we live in the world we are not carrying on a worldly war,
[4] for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds.” 2 Cor 10

In your gospel, we are as powerless against Satan’s attacks as we were before we believed. The only difference is that, if we believe, our failure against Satan won’t be counted against us any more. You take the atonement – one small part of the whole gospel – and confuse it with being the entire gospel. You strip the gospel of any real power. That is not the gospel Paul preached, Sozo. It is a deception Satan wants you to believe, so that you will not utilize the power Christ died and rose again to give you. John warned about this deception:

“Little children, let no one deceive you. He who does right is righteous, as he is righteous.” 1 Jn 3:7

We have not just forgiveness through faith, we have power. On our own we can will what is right, but we have not the power to do it:

“For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.” Rom 7:18

But as believers, the very power of God Himself is at work in us, both to will AND to WORK.

“for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” Phil 2:13

For all your bluster and noise, Sozo, it is evident that you have never personally experienced this power of Holy Spirit in your life. I pray you’ll yield yourself to the Holy Spirit, Sozo, submit to Him and allow His power to work in you and through you, that you may not just know Him, but experience the power of His resurrection at work in you. That is the obedience Paul is talking about in Rom 6:16 – obedience to the Spirit.

[8] Indeed I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as refuse, in order that I may gain Christ
[9] and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, based on law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith;
[10] that I may know him and the POWER of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,
[11] that if possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead. Phil 3

[11] To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his call, and may fulfill every good resolve and work of faith BY HIS POWER,
[12] so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thes 1

Sozo

December 18th, 2004, 09:34 AM

Originally posted by SteveT

Self righteous? No, Sozo, I have no righteousness of my own at all. The righteousness I have comes from the Spirit dwelling within me as a believer, the greatest gift of God. It is the Holy Spirit Himself which makes me righteous. Paul shows clearly in Romans 7 how man on his own power may perceive the righteous requirements of the law, but is incapable of keeping it because in the flesh he lacks the power to do so. I am no different, and God help me I pray to never claim otherwise. But the good news – the gospel – is that we are not on our own any more – we have the very power of God Himself in the person of the Holy Spirit available to us through faith:

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel: it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.”

Steve "the self-righteous perverted pig" T, you would make a great politician... unfortunately, you would lose.

The gospel is the power of God "unto salvation", not unto behavior modification. Your constant perversions and demonic doctrines are enough to make any true believer sick to their stomach. :vomit:

You blaspheme by denigrating the gospel and proclaiming it powerless to transform your life, Sozo. Anyone who has read what I know to be true, would call you a liar and perhaps out of your mind for such a ludicrious comment. I emphatically believe and teach that the gospel message totally and completely transforms us into someone we never were. We are a new creation in Christ; dead to the world, and alive to God. You simply believe in moral/behavioral transformation as the indicator of a Christian, because you are into cleaning the outside of the cup. You are a religious self-righteous Christ hating perverted pig. Any change in behavior, from the impartation of the life of God, is in fact the result of God working in us both to do and to will according to HIS good pleasure.
"For though we live in the world we are not carrying on a worldly war, for the weapons of our warfare are not worldly but have divine power to destroy strongholds.” The weapons, Steve! It is the weapons that have the power to destroy strongholds! It is not power to "keep the law", or to walk around in self-righteous piety telling everyone else what a wonderful job you are doing at being the examplary Christian :rolleyes: .

Paul continues: "We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete. You are looking at things as they are outwardly."

The weapons we have are to destroy the false doctrines of evil men like yourself, who teach a false gospel.

"For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the full armor of God, that you may be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. Stand firm therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; in addition to all, taking up the shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the flaming missiles of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. With all prayer and petition pray at all times in the Spirit, and with this in view, be on the alert with all perseverance and petition for all the saints"

Whenever I speak against you, godrulz, or other pigs at TOL, I am using those very weapons, and you have no power against them. :D

In your gospel, we are as powerless against Satan’s attacks as we were before we believed. Not at all, my gospel agrees with John...

"For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith. And who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?"

You take the atonement – one small part of the whole gospel – and confuse it with being the entire gospel. One "small" part? You're a sicko! First of all, the sacrifice of Jesus was not an atonement, it was a propitiation. Those who teach and believe that the blood of Jesus was an atonement, remove the power of Christ's sacrifice to the level of that of a pig. I would say it is you who blashemes the power of the gospel.We have not just forgiveness through faith, we have power The only "power" you have exhibited is that you continue to prove what a complete pervert you are.

I have "power", but it is not the "power" that you seek, nor is it the "power" that you teach, but it is the true power that God gives through His Holy Spirit to those who are His; a power that you have never had, nor a power that you can comprehend...

"For this reason, I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man; so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fulness of God. Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever."

You have perverted the POWER of God into a megaphone of "look at me" self-righteousness. You are a stench in the nostrils of God, and worthy of God's power that will bring wrath on those who trample on the blood of Jesus and insult the Spirit of grace.

SteveT

December 18th, 2004, 12:45 PM

Sozo:

I see. In your view the power of the Holy Spirit in your life amounts to giving you the ability to argue against false doctrines by calling people names.

Pathetic.

Sozo

December 18th, 2004, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by SteveT

Sozo:

I see. In your view the power of the Holy Spirit in your life amounts to giving you the ability to argue against false doctrines by calling people names.

Pathetic. I'm sure that the Pharisees made a similar deduction after their encounters with Jesus and Paul. The truth hurts those who think they are something when it is proved that they are nothing.

LightSon

December 18th, 2004, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Clete Pfeiffer

In the words of Miles J. Stanford....

"First of all, it is utterly futile to expect a believer, by means of consecration, surrender or commitment, to step from his ground of substitution as spoken of in Romans 3-5 on to that of the deeper truths in Romans 8 and 12:1.

There is the all-important area of identification truth in Romans 6,7 that cannot be skipped over. Every hungry-hearted Christian yearns to be fully consecrated and conditioned for an effective life and service. And from the very outset, until hard experience teaches him otherwise, the well-meaning believer thinks that since he has the will to obey God and to be what He intends for him, he should attempt to carry it out through personal consecrated effort with His help. He seeks to struggle forward via the love motive; i.e., He did for me, so I must do for Him.

The following two thoughts by Andrew Murray will help here. "A superficial acquaintance with God’s plan leads to the view that while justification is God’s work, by faith in Christ, sanctification (growth) is our work, to be performed under the influence of the gratitude we feel for the deliverance we have experienced, and by the aid of the Holy Spirit. But the earnest Christian soon finds how little gratitude can supply the power. When he thinks that more prayer will supply it, he finds that, indispensable as prayer is, it is not enough. Often the believer struggles hopelessly for years, until he listens to the teaching of the Spirit, as He glorifies Christ again, and reveals Christ, our Sanctification, to be appropriated by faith alone…

"God works to will, and He is ready to work to do (Phil. 2:13), but, alas! many Christians misunderstand this. They think because they have the will it is enough, and that now they are able to do. This is not so. The new will is a permanent gift, an attribute of the new nature. The power to do is not a permanent gift, but must be each moment received from the Holy Spirit. It is the man who is conscious of his own impotence as a believer who will learn that by the Holy Spirit he can lead a holy life." Now and then one is called on to speak out against something that is good in order to present His best. The love motive from which to live the Christian life and serve the Lord is good; it is high, but it is not adequate—especially because it is not the motivation underwritten by Him.

As growing Christians, it is time for us to see the necessity of going beyond the love motive to the life motive. "For to me to live is Christ" (Phil. 1:21). Our consecration, surrender or commitment will never hold up if it is our responding to Him from any other motivation than the response of His life in us. Yielding to Him on any different basis will simply amount to our trying to live for Him in the self-life. And even if that were possible, He could never accept it, since in that realm there dwells no good thing (Rom. 7:18), plus the fact that He has already taken the old life to the cross and crucified it (see Rom. 6:6; Gal. 2:20; II Tim. 2:11; I Pet. 2:24)."

Taken from Principles of Spiritual Growth (http://www.angelfire.com/mo2/goodnews/growth.html) by Miles J. Stanford

Resting in Him,
Clete

Thanks for sharing that Clete!

This topic is of interest to me.

At what point am I held responsible for my actions and my will?
Does it matter what I do with my body?
Is it enough to say "in Christ, I am righteous"?
Is it a contradiction to say, "as a Christian, I do not sin, so let's get drunk".
Is it not a contradiction to say "I am righteous" and be found wallowing in all manner of debauchery?

Why does scripture over and over and over again appeal to my will, to my volition? "Come out from among them, and be ye separate. And touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you". Am I gullible then in thinking, "I really need to come out"?

We agree that it is God who works in us "to will". But then if I assert that I am using my will to eschew evil, I get called on the carpet for trying to be self-righteous.

Lot's of little puzzles for me to figure out.

It seems that yielding (surrender) to the Holy Spirit is the key, but then why is so much scriptural emphasis put on specific behaviors? When I advocate not doing certain things, I'm judged a legalist, even though I insist that such avoidance ought to be spirit-led avoidance, based upon scriptural principle.

I realize that self-righteousness is a trap, a thing to be avoided. I also think that the charge of self-rightousness can be a pretense for avoiding self-examination. Scripture calls us to examine ourselves. This is not something that a truly righteousness person needs to do, hence when scripture calls the believer to examine himself, it is suggesting that we have areas to improve, and behaviors which need correction.

I have an understanding of the dynamics between positional righteousness and practical sanctification. There are a few who eschew this dichotomy and would even mock it. Yet I see both in scriputure and I see both in my life.

Meshullam

December 18th, 2004, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Sozo

What do you mean by "held accountable"?

I thought Jesus fulfills the righteous requirement of the Law in us. Is that not true?

That, my friend, is something of a loaded question, isn't it? I believe my meaning was easily comprehended from the context of my remarks. You chose to pick one offensive phrase out of the body of what you would otherwise agree with, if I read your posts correctly? Shall I thank you for taking my remarks seriously? I meant to advance the dialog to where I believe the scripture leads, and apparently, unsuccessfully.

Perhaps that was an ambiguous choice of words on my part. I do value precision of expression. However, one cannot always anticipate how a reader might interpret one's statement, no matter how carefully crafted.

Though I certainly think it can be amply demonstrated, from the N.T., that we will be judged [held accountable] for our works as believers.

[2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before [Matt 16:27; Acts 10:42; Rom 2:16; Rom 14:10, 12; Eph 6:8] the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. ]

Further, being free from the Law through Christ's vicarious death and resurrection does not absolve us of obligation to live a life pleasing to God. [Ephesians 5:8-10] We are to "walk in manner worthy of the calling with which we have been called. [Ephesians 4:1]

So, in answer to your question, yes, Jesus "fulfills" the righteous requirement of the Law in us. Yet, certainly you can agree that this assertion is not the complete statement of scripture on the matter? [I doubt what follows will be a complete statement of scripture, either. In the interest of gaining more precision, however…]

I think the expression “fulfills the righteous requirement of the Law,” in itself, lacks precision. Does He fulfill or did he fulfill? I believe both, that He fulfilled it before God, submitting to the will of the Father to become the object of the righteous wrath of God for us and fulfills it by living in and through us.

Fulfilled:
[Romans 3: 25whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

26for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. ]

God "passed over" the sins previously committed, in order to demonstrate His justice executed on the propiatory sacrifice.

He fulfilled it by entering the heavenly place on our behalf, taking His own blood, obtaining eternal redemption, having fulfilled the righteous plan of God, [Life cf. Galatians 3:21] which the Law could not accomplish.

[Hebrews 9:11But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;

12and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. ]

He also "fulfills" the righteous requirement of the Law in us as we are led by the Spirit in our earthly, temporal walk.

Fulfills:
[Romans 8:
11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--

13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. ]

Anticipating that you might misinterpret my meaning as advocating merit in our walk, I will attempt to clarify:

Jesus fulfills [note: not fulfilled, as above] the righteous requirement of the Law in us (Romans 8:3-4) by living in us. As we surrender ourselves in faith to Him, as [those] alive from the dead, He lives through us. He is in us, by the indwelling of His Spirit, and lives out His righteous in us, when we rest in His finished work as well as in His abiding life. [walking in the Spirit] He transforms us [Romans 12:2] into His own image:

[Ephesian 4:15 but speaking the truth (AJ)in love, we are to (AK)grow up in all aspects into Him who is the (AL)head, even Christ,]

The metaphor of the Vine [John 15] is perhaps helpful, here. We bear fruit in our walk as the Life of the Vine flows in us, for apart from Him, we can do nothing, let alone act righteously.

He alone is righteous. If any righteousness may be evident in us, it is that produced by Him, belonging exclusively to Him. God sees us as righteous in Christ. Again, His righteousness, counted to us on the basis of our faith.

Meshullam

December 18th, 2004, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by lighthouse

Uh, how about loving God?:think:

And, as Sozo said, doesn't Christ keep these in us?

I emphatically agree. :thumb:

I was trying to write of love fulfilling the Law in the broadest terms, as I believe Paul meant in Romans. Certainly, that includes the first commandment, right?

Sozo

December 18th, 2004, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Meshullam

He alone is righteous. If any righteousness may be evident in us, it is that produced by Him, belonging exclusively to Him. God sees us as righteous in Christ. Again, His righteousness, counted to us on the basis of our faith. It is not just that He "sees" us that way, but that we are that way.

Sozo

December 18th, 2004, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by LightSon

At what point am I held responsible for my actions and my will?
Does it matter what I do with my body?
Is it enough to say "in Christ, I am righteous"?
Is it a contradiction to say, "as a Christian, I do not sin, so let's get drunk".
Is it not a contradiction to say "I am righteous" and be found wallowing in all manner of debauchery?

Why does scripture over and over and over again appeal to my will, to my volition? "Come out from among them, and be ye separate. And touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you". Am I gullible then in thinking, "I really need to come out"?

We agree that it is God who works in us "to will". But then if I assert that I am using my will to eschew evil, I get called on the carpet for trying to be self-righteous.

Lot's of little puzzles for me to figure out.

It seems that yielding (surrender) to the Holy Spirit is the key, but then why is so much scriptural emphasis put on specific behaviors? When I advocate not doing certain things, I'm judged a legalist, even though I insist that such avoidance ought to be spirit-led avoidance, based upon scriptural principle.

I realize that self-righteousness is a trap, a thing to be avoided. I also think that the charge of self-rightousness can be a pretense for avoiding self-examination. Scripture calls us to examine ourselves. This is not something that a truly righteousness person needs to do, hence when scripture calls the believer to examine himself, it is suggesting that we have areas to improve, and behaviors which need correction.

I have an understanding of the dynamics between positional righteousness and practical sanctification. There are a few who eschew this dichotomy and would even mock it. Yet I see both in scriputure and I see both in my life.

POTD! :thumb:

JustAChristian

December 19th, 2004, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by lighthouse

Where ya been, JustAHeretic?

Hey, lighthouse,

I had a total knee replacement on October 25th and have just recently been able to sit at the computer for a short while. I am back now with a spark of excitement! Thanks for your concern.

JustAChristian (You're still misspelling my user name. Why are you doing that?) :angel:

SteveT

December 19th, 2004, 11:56 AM

Mesh:

"Jesus fulfills [note: not fulfilled, as above] the righteous requirement of the Law in us (Romans 8:3-4) by living in us. As we surrender ourselves in faith to Him, as [those] alive from the dead, He lives through us. He is in us, by the indwelling of His Spirit, and lives out His righteous in us, when we rest in His finished work as well as in His abiding life. [walking in the Spirit] He transforms us [Romans 12:2] into His own image"

Very well put. In this exchange in Mt 19, Jesus explicitly addresses what is necessary for salvation:

"[16] And behold, one came up to him, saying, "Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?"
[17] And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."
[18] He said to him, "Which?" And Jesus said, "You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,
[19] Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
[20] The young man said to him, "All these I have observed; what do I still lack?"
[21] Jesus said to him, "If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me."

We see two requirements, a negative (be without sin, i.e., keep the commandments) and a positive (be holy - totally sold out to the Lord). Elsewhere Jesus makes clear that merely keeping the commandments (fulfilling the negative), even were it possible, is not sufficient to attain to heaven:

[7] "Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, `Come at once and sit down at table'?
[8] Will he not rather say to him, `Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink'?
[9] Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded?
[10] So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.'" (Luke 17)

Keeping the commandments doesn't merit transforming you from a servant into a son. In Romans 1 and 2, Paul gives us the "bad news" - in the flesh, we are slaves to sin and incapable of keeping the commandments, let alone of being holy. To be saved we need three things done for us: (1) to be freed from our bondage to slavery (redeemed); (2) to have the sins we have committed be paid for (propitiation); (3) to be made holy (sanctified). Paul then lays out the "good news" - that Christ has come to provide all three. The central verse of the whole book, IMHO, if 5:10,

"For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life."

That, in a nutshell, is the gospel, the "good news". By His death on the cross, Christ has redeemed us from our slavery to sin and provided propitiation for sins committed, thus reconciling us to God. By His resurrection, He gives to us the Holy Spirit to indwell us and sanctify us, and it is His living in us by the Spirit that ultimately saves us. The fruit of the Spirit's work within us is far more than the ability to call people names who disagree with us :) And walking according as the Spirit leads is not optional when it comes to salvation.

[16] But I say, walk by the Spirit, and do not gratify the desires of the flesh.
[17] For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh; for these are opposed to each other, to prevent you from doing what you would.
[18] But if you are led by the Spirit you are not under the law.
[19] Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness,
[20] idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit,
[21] envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[22] But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
[23] gentleness, self-control; against such there is no law." Gal 5

[12] So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh --
[13] for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live." Rom 8

Becoming holy - sanctification - is a process, one which is entirely the work of the Holy Spirit, not of us. Our role is to allow Him to do His work by obediently submitting to Him. This side of eternity, that submission is still a struggle:

"[4] In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
[5] And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? -- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor lose courage when you are punished by him.
[6] For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."
[7] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
[8] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
[9] Besides this, we have had earthly fathers to discipline us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?
[10] For they disciplined us for a short time at their pleasure, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness.
[11] For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
[12] Therefore lift your drooping hands and strengthen your weak knees,
[13] and make straight paths for your feet, so that what is lame may not be put out of joint but rather be healed.
[14] Strive for peace with all men, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord.