The catastrophic tsunami in Asia was....

[Knight]

Select all that apply.

[drbrumley]

A conspiracy staged by the Bush Administration?

Now that is comedy.

[Knight]

Originally posted by drbrumley

A conspiracy staged by the Bush Administration?

Now that is comedy. That option was for you. :D

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Knight

That option was for you. :D

I thought it was.......

[JRHoffman]

How about a natural event that occurs when the plates of the earth shift. Of course the plates of the earth only shift because the flood in Noah's day caused the tilting of the earth and placed undo strain on them. So lets blame it on Satan and his introduction of sin which resulted in the flood in the first place.

[Z Man]

Hmmmm.. let's see now. The catastrophic tsunami in Asia was...

- A judgment upon the wicked from God:

Well, if that was the case, we'd all be dead.

- A sign of the end times:

We've been getting these signs since Jesus ascended.

- A conspiracy staged by the U.N.

Highly doubtful and a ridiculus conclusion.

- A conspiracy staged by the Bush Administration:

Even more ridiculus.

- A sign of global warming:

Now how in the world does global warming affect a siesmic plate shift 6 miles beneath the ocean floor to cause an earthquake?

- Mother Earth striking back for overpopulation:

Did Skeptic come up with this one?

- A well orchestrated terrorist attack:

Geez! If they were willing to spend that amount of money to create a 40ft tsunami and wipe out Southeast Asia, why didn't they just invest it in wiping out America with a couple of nukes?

- Bad karma:

Karma? Who believes in this crap on a Christian website?

- A tragic random event:

There is no such thing as 'randomness', or accidents.

- Other (explain below):

I think all options have been exhausted.


So, I guess that leaves only one logical option left to be true. Guess which one I'll vote for...

:chuckle:

[Knight]

Originally posted by JRHoffman

How about a natural event that occurs when the plates of the earth shift. Of course the plates of the earth only shift because the flood in Noah's day caused the tilting of the earth and placed undo strain on them. So lets blame it on Satan and his introduction of sin which resulted in the flood in the first place. OK... so did you vote "other" or "a tragic random event"?

[BillyBob]

A tragic random event.

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Z Man

Hmmmm.. let's see now. The catastrophic tsunami in Asia was...

- A judgment upon the wicked from God:

Well, if that was the case, we'd all be dead.

- A sign of the end times:

We've been getting these signs since Jesus ascended.

- A conspiracy staged by the U.N.

Highly doubtful and a ridiculus conclusion.

- A conspiracy staged by the Bush Administration:

Even more ridiculus.

- A sign of global warming:

Now how in the world does global warming affect a siesmic plate shift 6 miles beneath the ocean floor to cause an earthquake?

- Mother Earth striking back for overpopulation:

Did Skeptic come up with this one?

- A well orchestrated terrorist attack:

Geez! If they were willing to spend that amount of money to create a 40ft tsunami and wipe out Southeast Asia, why didn't they just invest it in wiping out America with a couple of nukes?

- Bad karma:

Karma? Who believes in this crap on a Christian website?

- A tragic random event:

There is no such thing as 'randomness', or accidents.

- Other (explain below):

I think all options have been exhausted.


So, I guess that leaves only one logical option left to be true. Guess which one I'll vote for...

:chuckle:

:think: :rolleyes:

[ShadowMaid]

It was a tragic, random event.

[philosophizer]

I check "tragic random event" and "other."

It was a tragic event certainly. And it was random in the people it killed, other than the fact that they were all in one geographical location.

The "other" part is that it is not quite random on all levels. It was the result of a seismic disturbance on the ocean floor from movements of contental plates. It's just something that happens on this Earth of ours. It is a thing of nature.

Did God cause it? No. Natural processes did.

Is God to blame for not preventing it or letting it happen? No. The somewhat hostile nature of Nature is a part of how our world must be constructed in order to create independent beings such as ourselves. Is that a design flaw? Only if you consider the "best" possible world to be one in which all things run "perfectly."

[Lucky]

Interesting choices. :chuckle:

[Granite]

Wow. A random, tragic event. For once I'm in the majority around here...so, question, did this happen to take God by surprise, for you theists in the house? Or did he see it coming and decide not to lift a finger? Did hell need around 80,000 fresh souls after Christmas, or what?

Another thought--if Christians agree this was a random event, is there any advantage in approaching such things from a Christian perspective?

[billwald]

The Intelligent Designer intelligently designed a world that requires random earth quakes.

[Granite]

Originally posted by billwald

The Intelligent Designer intelligently designed a world that requires random earth quakes.

Well there's some double talk if I ever heard it...

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Hilston

...it is because the observance of anything religiously ritualistic, ceremonial, or symbolic upsets the created order.


:nono:

[JRHoffman]

Originally posted by billwald

The Intelligent Designer intelligently designed a world that requires random earth quakes.

Did He? Or are these actions a result of the fall?

[King David]

1 THERE were present at that season some that told him of the Galilæans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilæans were sinners above all the Galilæans, because they suffered such things?

3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

-Luke 13:4



...your Father which is in heaven....maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

-Matthew 5:45


17 Hearken ye, for, behold, the great day of the Lord is nigh at hand.

18 For the day cometh that the Lord shall utter his voice out of heaven; the heavens shall shake and the earth shall tremble, and the trump of God shall sound both long and loud, and shall say to the sleeping nations: Ye saints arise and live; ye sinners stay and sleep until I shall call again.

19 Wherefore gird up your loins lest ye be found among the wicked.

20 Lift up your voices and spare not. Call upon the nations to repent, both old and young, both bond and free, saying: Prepare yourselves for the great day of the Lord;

21 For if I, who am a man, do lift up my voice and call upon you to repent, and ye hate me, what will ye say when the day cometh when the thunders shall utter their voices from the ends of the earth, speaking to the ears of all that live, saying—Repent, and prepare for the great day of the Lord?

22 Yea, and again, when the lightnings shall streak forth from the east unto the west, and shall utter forth their voices unto all that live, and make the ears of all tingle that hear, saying these words—Repent ye, for the great day of the Lord is come?

23 And again, the Lord shall utter his voice out of heaven, saying: Hearken, O ye nations of the earth, and hear the words of that God who made you.

24 O, ye nations of the earth, how often would I have gathered you together as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, but ye would not!

25 How oft have I called upon you by the mouth of my servants, and by the ministering of angels, and by mine own voice, and by the voice of thunderings, and by the voice of lightnings, and by the voice of tempests, and by the voice of earthquakes, and great hailstorms, and by the voice of famines and pestilences of every kind, and by the great sound of a trump, and by the voice of judgment, and by the voice of mercy all the day long, and by the voice of glory and honor and the riches of eternal life, and would have saved you with an everlasting salvation, but ye would not!

26 Behold, the day has come, when the cup of the wrath of mine indignation is full.

27 Behold, verily I say unto you, that these are the words of the Lord your God.

-Doctrine & Covenants 43

ALL OF THE ABOVE SCRIPTURES HERE APPLY.


--KING DAVID

[Z Man]

Originally posted by granite1010

Wow. A random, tragic event. For once I'm in the majority around here...so, question, did this happen to take God by surprise, for you theists in the house? Or did he see it coming and decide not to lift a finger? Did hell need around 80,000 fresh souls after Christmas, or what?

Another thought--if Christians agree this was a random event, is there any advantage in approaching such things from a Christian perspective?
I don't believe it was a 'random' event. God is sovereign - He controls this world. He created it, He controls it. The world isn't 'running free' from His control. I thought Job taught us this?

Most Christians on this board consider it a 'random event' because they are 'afraid' of attributing this tragic event to God. Yet, they'll turn right around and have no problem saying that God caused the flood in Noah's day which wiped out the whole world except 8 souls...

:rolleyes:

[Lighthouse]

I say it was a random event, that was tragic. And I don't beleive it was cused by God, because it wasn't about judgment on the wicked, as the flood was...seeing as how Christ already suffered the punishment for all of us, on the cross.

[Vaquero45]

Originally posted by JRHoffman

How about a natural event that occurs when the plates of the earth shift. Of course the plates of the earth only shift because the flood in Noah's day caused the tilting of the earth and placed undo strain on them. So lets blame it on Satan and his introduction of sin which resulted in the flood in the first place.


Very nice, I think you nailed it. :D Never thought of it that way. Yup, it WAS sin, and/or satan.

Jeff

[firechyld]

I'm pretty much in agreement with philo:

I check "tragic random event" and "other."

It was a tragic event certainly. And it was random in the people it killed, other than the fact that they were all in one geographical location.

The "other" part is that it is not quite random on all levels. It was the result of a seismic disturbance on the ocean floor from movements of contental plates. It's just something that happens on this Earth of ours. It is a thing of nature.


I ticked "tragic random event" and "other" (before I read philo's response, btw). I feel it was a tragic event, but not that it can really be labelled "random" from a scientific perspective. These things happen, and are not all that "random".

I also ticked "a conspiracy staged by the Bush administration", solely because it was funny. It was only in retrospect that I realised this made a comment on Bush's competence which I completely disagree with. ;) C'est la vie.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Z Man


Most Christians on this board consider it a 'random event' because they are 'afraid' of attributing this tragic event to God. Yet, they'll turn right around and have no problem saying that God caused the flood in Noah's day which wiped out the whole world except 8 souls...

:rolleyes: The "Flood" was a judgment on the world.

Are you saying that God still does that?

[Rimi]

Agree that ultimately it was because of "the Fall". In a fallen world, tragic and random events happen. If is WAS God, why did the Christians there suffer so greatly? Apparently the tsunami happened when most were in church services and they took a serious hit.

[julie21]

Originally posted by Rimi

Agree that ultimately it was because of "the Fall". In a fallen world, tragic and random events happen. If is WAS God, why did the Christians there suffer so greatly? Apparently the tsunami happened when most were in church services and they took a serious hit.

And so are 'Christians' to be saved from suffering? Also, how can one person tell if a Christian really is a Christian...only One being as far as I am concerned who truly knows if one is or not.

[Soulman]

As a Calvinist, would have said predestined and been left holding the bag defending god's character. As a sun worshipper, makes more "sense" to leave god out of it and accept this catastrophe as a natural, random event. There is no one and nothing to "blame." Not god. Not sin. Not Satan. Not the UN, not terrorists, and not King George. The best explanation is the simplest explanation: In a universe of matter in motion, someone's gonna get hurt, and someone gets "randomly" hurt or killed somewhere, somehow, literally every moment of every day. The magnitude of this disaster is shocking, but small-scale random or "freak" deaths (auto accidents, house fires, trip and falls, being struck by lightning, etc.) are so "passe" they're taken for granted and barely given a second thought. The only difference between one "accidental" death and 100,000 accidental deaths is the "scale" of the tragedy, not the "randomness" or the "quality" of the tragedy. Theological explanations are only necessary in order to get god "off the hook." Since there's no one to "blame" in a naturalistic universe, the sun worshipper doesnt need a scapegoat (god, Satan, sin, the victims) to "explain" a natural disaster.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Sozo

The "Flood" was a judgment on the world.

Are you saying that God still does that?
Well, He will. Not everyone is saved...

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Soulman

As a Calvinist, would have said predestined and been left holding the bag defending god's character. As a sun worshipper, makes more "sense" to leave god out of it and accept this catastrophe as a natural, random event. There is no one and nothing to "blame." Not god. Not sin. Not Satan. Not the UN, not terrorists, and not King George. The best explanation is the simplest explanation: In a universe of matter in motion, someone's gonna get hurt, and someone gets "randomly" hurt or killed somewhere, somehow, literally every moment of every day. The magnitude of this disaster is shocking, but small-scale random or "freak" deaths (auto accidents, house fires, trip and falls, being struck by lightning, etc.) are so "passe" they're taken for granted and barely given a second thought. The only difference between one "accidental" death and 100,000 accidental deaths is the "scale" of the tragedy, not the "randomness" or the "quality" of the tragedy. Theological explanations are only necessary in order to get god "off the hook." Since there's no one to "blame" in a naturalistic universe, the sun worshipper doesnt need a scapegoat (god, Satan, sin, the victims) to "explain" a natural disaster.
Let me guess - you checked 'Mother Earth striking back for overpopulation', didn't you?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

I don't believe it was a 'random' event. God is sovereign - He controls this world. He created it, He controls it. The world isn't 'running free' from His control. I thought Job taught us this?

Job taught us what about this tsunami?

Are you insinuating that God allowed Satan to cause the earthquake and resulting in tsunami in Asia? :confused:

[Wamba]

I wonder how many people seriously think it's "A conspiracy staged by the Bush Administration" :think:

[PastorZ77]

Are any events not predestined by God?

[Knight]

Originally posted by PastorZ77

Are any events not predestined by God? What does the Bible say?

[PastorZ77]

What does the Bible say?

Hehehe.

Trick question.

Ohhh CALVINNNNNNN!!!!

:P

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Job taught us what about this tsunami?
The book of Job taught us that God is in control of this Earth and all of her 'phenomenons'.
Are you insinuating that God allowed Satan to cause the earthquake and resulting in tsunami in Asia? :confused:
Sorta. I don't know if we can directly say that Satan caused it, but I do believe God did. Either indirectly through Satan, or directly by Himself, I don't know, but I do know He's in control, and that means He was in control of that tsunami.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight
Originally posted by PastorZ77

Are any events not predestined by God?
What does the Bible say?
Well, let's see:

Isaiah 46:9-10
And do not forget the things I have done throughout history. For I am God – I alone! I am God, and there is no one else like me. Only I can tell you what is going to happen even before it happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish.

Isaiah 48:3
"I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass."

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

Revelations 13:8
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb who was killed before the world was made.

Ephesians 1:4
Long ago, even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

The book of Job taught us that God is in control of this Earth and all of her 'phenomenons'.

Sorta. I don't know if we can directly say that Satan caused it, but I do believe God did. Either indirectly through Satan, or directly by Himself, I don't know, but I do know He's in control, and that means He was in control of that tsunami. :kookoo:

[Knight]

Originally posted by PastorZ77

Hehehe.

Trick question.

Ohhh CALVINNNNNNN!!!!

:P No trick question.

I was really hoping you would answer it.

[Knight]

Z-Man references....

Isaiah 46:9-10
And do not forget the things I have done throughout history. For I am God – I alone! I am God, and there is no one else like me. Only I can tell you what is going to happen even before it happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish.

What Bible version is that?

How about....

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

Yes, God does what He pleases but there is nothing in that verse that states that God it pleases God to do EVERYTHING..

Isaiah 48:3
"I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass."
God can bring things to pass there is no disagreement there (but that certainly doesn't help your point any).

Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

God only directs our steps if we let Him.

"Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. "

Revelations 13:8
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb who was killed before the world was made.

So? Of course those that reject God will not have their names in the Book of Life.

Ephesians 1:4
Long ago, even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.

God predestined that the Body of Christ (corporately) would be Holy and blameless before the Lord. He did NOT however predestine individually who would join that Body.

[Granite]

Originally posted by Z Man

Let me guess - you checked 'Mother Earth striking back for overpopulation', didn't you?

Did you even read Soulman's post or did it simply not compute, Z?

[STONE]

Does God have providence over disasters?
What is their reason or purpose?

"Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down."

[Knight]

Originally posted by STONE

Does God have providence over disasters?
What is their reason or purpose?

"Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down." STONE I was of course leading up to this verse in which Jesus makes the point that some things just happen!

It wasn't divine judgment or part of some cosmic plan but just a random tragic event.

Great point!

[STONE]

I was unaware of this thread, and appreciate you moving the post knight.

Here is a speculative question for any and all to answer:
Before Adam sinned would God have allowed him to be killed by a Tsunami or any disaster (aside from the fact that Adam was the only man)? Why or why not?

[Knight]

Originally posted by STONE

I was unaware of this thread, and appreciate you moving the post knight.

Here is a speculative question for any and all to answer:
Before Adam sinned would God have allowed him to be killed by a Tsunami or any disaster (aside from the fact that Adam was the only man)? Why or why not? Well... before sin (and the flood) there would not have been the geographic and geologic features that would lead to a Tsunami.

But lets change the tragedy....

Pre.... sin and pre flood.....

Let's assume a large coconut fell from a large tree hitting Adam on the head hard enough to kill him. It is my guess that God would not have supernaturally moved Adam out of harm's way yet God may have supernaturally healed Adam from his head injury (via a angel or by other means). This scenario seems to be more in line with God's character and how He interacts with freewill agents based on what we read from His word.

[Delmar]

Originally posted by JRHoffman

How about a natural event that occurs when the plates of the earth shift. Of course the plates of the earth only shift because the flood in Noah's day caused the tilting of the earth and placed undo strain on them. So lets blame it on Satan and his introduction of sin which resulted in the flood in the first place.

I'm with JR on this one so I voted for both Judgment of God and random event.

[Knight]

Originally posted by deardelmar

I'm with JR on this one so I voted for both Judgment of God and random event. I can see that connection.

Although this wasn't a specific judgment against a specific group of people.

[STONE]

Originally posted by deardelmar

I'm with JR on this one so I voted for both Judgment of God and random event.
"cursed is the ground (earth) for thy sake". This seems to agree with your position.

[BillyBob]

I'd like to know who the knuckleheads are that actually think this is a sign of Global Warming. :dunce:

[STONE]

Originally posted by Knight
Let's assume a large coconut fell from a large tree hitting Adam on the head hard enough to kill him. It is my guess that God would not have supernaturally moved Adam out of harm's way yet God may have supernaturally healed Adam from his head injury (via a angel or by other means). This scenario seems to be more in line with God's character and how He interacts with freewill agents based on what we read from His word.

Consider this verse:

"Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone."

[JRHoffman]

Those of the dispensational premil mindset might say this was a fullfilment of Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Maybe Hal Lindsay and his cohorts will be able to use this event and manipulate scripture to get a date for the second coming and sell some more tapes :-)

[Knight]

Originally posted by STONE

Consider this verse:

"Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation; There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling. For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways. They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone." I think that would be a good argument if it were written about Adam or about pre-sin or pre-flood times...... but it isn't

Christians do in fact die. They even die of plagues and evil does occasionally befall them.

As did Jews in the time that this Psalm was written.

Therefore, I believe this is a figurative way for David to communicate that God would be on his (their) side and be a protector if David leaned not on his own understandings (Proverbs 3:5) yet by acknowledging God in all his ways he would have the assistance of God.

[Sozo]

I really believe that verse is refering to those who are in Christ, and is simply reporting that nothing shall separate them from God.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight
Originally posted by Z Man

The book of Job taught us that God is in control of this Earth and all of her 'phenomenons'.

Sorta. I don't know if we can directly say that Satan caused it, but I do believe God did. Either indirectly through Satan, or directly by Himself, I don't know, but I do know He's in control, and that means He was in control of that tsunami.
:kookoo:
Think I'm nuts? Read your Bible:


Job 26:12, 14
He stirs up the sea with His power, And by His understanding He breaks up the storm. ... But the thunder of His power who can understand?

Job 38:4-11
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb; When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band; When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors; When I said, 'This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!'

Psalms 33:7
He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deep in storehouses.

Psalms 89:9; 93:4,5
You rule the raging of the sea; When its waves rise, You still them.

The Lord on high is mightier Than the noise of many waters, Than the mighty waves of the sea. The sea is His, for He made it; And His hands formed the dry land.


Now who's nuts for saying God was not in control of the tsunami; that it was just some 'random event'?

[Sozo]

Zman... do you believe that there is such a thing as entropy, or does God randomly cause everything to deteriorate?

Does God cause my milk to spoil if I leave it on the counter?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Z-Man references....

Isaiah 46:9-10
And do not forget the things I have done throughout history. For I am God – I alone! I am God, and there is no one else like me. Only I can tell you what is going to happen even before it happens. Everything I plan will come to pass, for I do whatever I wish.

What Bible version is that?

How about....

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’
It was the New Living Translation. But does it matter? Both versions say the same thing.
Yes, God does what He pleases but there is nothing in that verse that states that God it pleases God to do EVERYTHING..
Why wouldn't it? Isn't everything His? He is the supreme Sovereign God, and, news flash, you're not in control - He is. Surrender to Him already, for pete's sake!
Isaiah 48:3
"I have declared the former things from the beginning; They went forth from My mouth, and I caused them to hear it. Suddenly I did them, and they came to pass."
God can bring things to pass there is no disagreement there (but that certainly doesn't help your point any).
It says here that God has declared the former things from the beginning. Not only did He declare them, but He did exactly what He has declared from the beginning, and 'suddenly they came to pass'. That's called 'predestination', so yeah, it does help prove my point.
Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.

God only directs our steps if we let Him.

"Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And lean not on your own understanding; 6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He shall direct your paths. "
For those that desire righteousness, of course God is the 'director of our paths'. What other perfect example is there for us to follow?

But for predestinations sake, God is in control, not us. He does as He pleases, and what He declares from the beginning, He brings to past. Thus, if you plan on doing something oneway, but God begs to differ, He wins. He'll get His way. He doesn't have to come and ask you for permission first. Those people in Southern Asia had a different agenda that Sunday morning on the beach other than being swept away by a tidal wave, but God had a different plan. Who do you think got their way? Gee, I don't know, let's turn our T.V.'s on to CNN and find out...

Job 9:3-12
If one wished to contend with God, he could not answer Him one time out of a thousand. God is wise in heart and mighty in strength. Who has hardened himself against Him and prospered? He removes the mountains, and they do not know When He overturns them in His anger; He shakes the earth out of its place, And its pillars tremble; He commands the sun, and it does not rise; He seals off the stars; He alone spreads out the heavens, and treads on the waves of the sea; He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades, And the chambers of the south; He does great things past finding out, Yes, wonders without number. If He goes by me, I do not see Him; If He moves past, I do not perceive Him; If He takes away, who can hinder Him? Who can say to Him, 'What are You doing?'

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand or say to Him, "What have You done?"
Revelations 13:8
And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life, which belongs to the Lamb who was killed before the world was made.

So? Of course those that reject God will not have their names in the Book of Life.
My point here was to illustrate that even Christ's sacrifice was predestined long before the world was even created. Think Adam's fall caught God by surprise? I don't think so...
Ephesians 1:4
Long ago, even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes.

God predestined that the Body of Christ (corporately) would be Holy and blameless before the Lord. He did NOT however predestine individually who would join that Body.
Really? Why did God stop Saul on the road to Damascus? Did Saul just happen to 'bump' into God that day?

[STONE]

Originally posted by Knight

I think that would be a good argument if it were written about Adam or about pre-sin or pre-flood times...... but it isn't

Christians do in fact die. They even die of plagues and evil does occasionally befall them.

As did Jews in the time that this Psalm was written.

Therefore, I believe this is a figurative way for David to communicate that God would be on his (their) side and be a protector if David leaned not on his own understandings (Proverbs 3:5) yet by acknowledging God in all his ways he would have the assistance of God.

Consider these:

"The LORD will preserve him, and keep him alive; and he shall be blessed upon the earth: and thou wilt not deliver him unto the will of his enemies."

"My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth. He will not suffer thy foot to be moved: he that keepeth thee will not slumber. Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep. The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand. The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night. The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul. The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore."

"My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion: So shall they be life unto thy soul, and grace to thy neck. Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble. When thou liest down, thou shalt not be afraid: yea, thou shalt lie down, and thy sleep shall be sweet. Be not afraid of sudden fear, neither of the desolation of the wicked, when it cometh. For the LORD shall be thy confidence, and shall keep thy foot from being taken."

"None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken:"

"That led them by the right hand of Moses with his glorious arm, dividing the water before them, to make himself an everlasting name? That led them through the deep, as an horse in the wilderness, that they should not stumble?"

"And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king’s counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them."

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. In your patience possess ye your souls."

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Sozo

Zman... do you believe that there is such a thing as entropy, or does God randomly cause everything to deteriorate?

Does God cause my milk to spoil if I leave it on the counter?
Not directly. But He did create the physics to make your milk spoil if left on the counter for a specific amount of time.

[drbrumley]

Originally posted by Z Man

Not directly. But He did create the physics to make your milk spoil if left on the counter for a specific amount of time.

Not directly!
Hmmm, ZMan, so the rational is if God created the science of it, then it must be His fault? Sheesh!!!!

[Z Man]

Originally posted by granite1010

Did you even read Soulman's post or did it simply not compute, Z?
It was just a joke man... :noid:

[Z Man]

Originally posted by drbrumley

Not directly!
Hmmm, ZMan, so the rational is if God created the science of it, then it must be His fault? Sheesh!!!!
:confused:

[drbrumley]

You said God created the physics of it, thereby if your milk spoils, its God's fault for allowing your milk to spoil.

So, in the case of the tsunami's, God in your view, created the Tsunami directly or allowed the tsunami because He created the physics of it, or something to that effect. Thereby, any way you look at it, God directly killed up to 100,000 with this, or he allowed it. Am I close?

[BillyBob]

I just heard a story on the news about a woman who was swept into the water with her 2 children. She clung to both of them at first but felt herself about to go under and realized she had to let go of one of her boys. She let go of the 5 year old and held on to her toddler. Another floundering woman nearby grabbed the 5 year old but also had to let go.






The boy survived by clinging to a door!


Amazing.

[STONE]

Originally posted by Knight
Christians do in fact die. They even die of plagues and evil does occasionally befall them.

Also these...

"I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:"

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

Not directly. But He did create the physics to make your milk spoil if left on the counter for a specific amount of time. I think you just made Sozo's point.

[Knight]

Originally posted by STONE

Also these...

"I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:"

"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"

"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." OK... so your argument is that everyone that was killed in the Tsunami was an enemy of God or someone who was due judgment?

And they all just happened to be in the same place at the same time?

Wow! That's pretty wacky!

[drbrumley]

It's amazing to me how scripture is twisted to somehow support these views.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

It was the New Living Translation. But does it matter? Both versions say the same thing.Yes... it does matter. That is one crummy translation.

You continueWhy wouldn't it? Isn't everything His? He is the supreme Sovereign God, and, news flash, you're not in control - He is. Surrender to Him already, for pete's sake!Why would you say that?

Is it because you inherently believe in freewill?

Why would you ask me to do something that you claim only God can do? :think:

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Z Man

Not directly. But He did create the physics to make your milk spoil if left on the counter for a specific amount of time. Therefore, in your way of thinking, God predestined me to leave the milk on the counter?

Why did God not simply create the physics for the earth to occasionally have earthquakes?

[BillyBob]

I don't understand how anybody can deny freewill. To do so would mean that God predetermines who will burn in Hell and who won't, regardless of the actions of the individual. If it has already been determined that you are going to Hell, what is the point of evangelism, the Bible or Jesus, it will do no good and have no effect. If it has already been determined that you are going to heaven, there is no need for repentance or salvation.

And why would God sentence some people to eternal death while giving others eternal life without allowing a choice in the matter. How does he decide, does he roll dice?

The whole thing falls apart.

[Knight]

Originally posted by BillyBob

I don't understand how anybody can deny freewill. To do so would mean that God predetermines who will burn in Hell and who won't. If it has already been determined that you are going to Hell, what is the point of evangelism, the Bible or Jesus, it will do no good and have no effect. If it has already been determined that you are going to heaven, there is no need for repentance or salvation.

And why would God sentence some people to eternal death while giving others eternal life without allowing a choice in the matter.

The whole thing falls apart. It makes you wonder why God would instruct us to....

Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. - 2 Timothy 4:2

And how about pray BillyBob? What is the point of praying if it has no ability to affect God?

Hear my prayer, O LORD, Give ear to my supplications! In Your faithfulness answer me, And in Your righteousness. - Psalms 143:1

I agree with you BillyBob! :up:

[STONE]

Originally posted by Knight
Christians do in fact die. They even die of plagues and evil does occasionally befall them.

Originally posted by STONE
Also (consider) these...
"I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:"
"As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:"
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
Originally posted by Knight
OK... so your argument is that everyone that was killed in the Tsunami was an enemy of God or someone who was due judgment?
And they all just happened to be in the same place at the same time?
Wow! That's pretty wacky!

That has nothing to do with my point.
How would you interpret the scriptures quoted above?
-Do you think believers are not corrected by their Father?
-Do you think believers are not appointed once to die?
-Do you think believers death is not the last enemy to be destroyed?

[Knight]

Originally posted by STONE

That has nothing to do with my point.
How would you interpret the scriptures quoted above?
-Do you think believers are not corrected by their Father?In today's dispensation? Believers are only corrected through God's word.

You continue...-Do you think believers are not appointed once to die?Yes. And therefore what?

You continue...-Do you think believers death is not the last enemy to be destroyed? You lost me. :confused:

What does any of this have to do with the Tsunami in Asia?

[STONE]

To clarify-
#1: God does protect his children.
#2: There are times when believers suffer or are martyred for the benefit of the Gospel.
#3: God does correct His children; suffering may be involved.
#4: Believers do still die.

How does this relate to the tsunami? Even if a believer dies, that does not mean that they weren't under God's protection and correction throughout their life. Nor does it mean that God couldn't have chosen to save a believer had He chosen to.

"God is destroying people" or "God has nothing to do with life's events" are not the only two choices. But his workings are made known through the scriptures.

Originally posted by Knight
In today's dispensation...Believers are only corrected through God's word. I am unaware of any scripture that hints at believers are only corrected through God's Word.
Please post that scripture if you could.

[Knight]

Originally posted by STONE

To clarify-
#1: God does protect his children.
#2: There are times when believers suffer or are martyred for the benefit of the Gospel.
#3: God does correct His children; suffering may be involved.
#4: Believers do still die.

How does this relate to the tsunami? Even if a believer dies, that does not mean that they weren't under God's protection and correction throughout their life. Nor does it mean that God couldn't have chosen to save a believer had He chosen to.

"God is destroying people" or "God has nothing to do with life's events" are not the only two choices. But his workings are made known through the scriptures.OK... so what are you saying? I am still confused about your view.

Was the tsunami God's handiwork or not?

[Granite]

It seems to me that a lot of smoke is being blown on this thread.

Christians have three options:

God allowed this to happen;

God destined this to happen;

God didn't know it was going to happen.

That's it. These are the choices allowed by the Christian mindset. None of them are terribly comforting or satisfactory. Having "God" in the picture just complicates things, frankly. And if this is indeed a random, freak occurrence, as most here believe, there's no advantage in approaching this calamity from a Christian angle. I mean, how hypocritical could you possibly be, in praying for the families of the victims? Your God made this or let this happen, baby. And then there's people with the gall to send prayers out to the victims.

If this was not an incident caused directly by God himself, he either was caught off guard or was so indifferent that he just let things take their course. Gee. Thanks. They happen to be brown-skinned pagans, anyway, so that makes it easier. 100,000 plus souls and counting, all sent to hell in the blink of an eye right after Christmas.

[Knight]

Originally posted by granite1010

It seems to me that a lot of smoke is being blown on this thread.

Christians have three options:

God allowed this to happen;

God destined this to happen;

God didn't know it was going to happen.

That's it. These are the choices allowed by the Christian mindset. None of them are terribly comforting or satisfactory. Tsunami's generally are not very comforting.

You continue... Having "God" in the picture just complicates things, frankly. And if this is indeed a random, freak occurrence, as most here believe, there's no advantage in approaching this calamity from a Christian angle. I mean, how hypocritical could you possibly be, in praying for the families of the victims? Your God made this or let this happen, baby. And then there's people with the gall to send prayers out to the victims. Of all the nerve!!! :rolleyes:

God can and does comfort those that desire His comfort. God can also give people wisdom in such situations. These are the things that prayer can affect.

If this was not an incident caused directly by God himself, he either was caught off guard or was so indifferent that he just let things take their course. Gee. Thanks. They happen to be brown-skinned pagans, anyway, so that makes it easier. 100,000 plus souls and counting, all sent to hell in the blink of an eye right after Christmas. I would love to comment on your paragraph but it's more fun to just call you a flaming idiot so that's what I decided to do.

granite1010 you are indeed a flaming idiot.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

And if this is indeed a random, freak occurrence, as most here believe, there's no advantage in approaching this calamity from a Christian angle. I have not seen one person give him the credit. I know he claims to be able to do exorcisms, but I doubt that he can cause earthquakes. :freak:

[Granite]

"God can and does comfort those that desire His comfort. God can also give people wisdom in such situations. These are the things that prayer can affect."

Ah. So, those in Asia who were killed, injured, and maimed either weren't asking for his comfort--and got creamed--or were just the victims of dumb, stupid luck. Question: why the world would someone who is now homeless, family dead and possessions washed out to sea, want to pray to the deity who just caused this destruction? "Lord...you either directly caused this tragedy and killed my family; you let it happen, and didn't intervene; or, this caught you by surprise. Either way, help me out." Why the world would a vindictive, or incompetant, or disinterested deity be anyone these people would want to beseech?

Oh, and here's the kicker.

I said: If this was not an incident caused directly by God himself, he either was caught off guard or was so indifferent that he just let things take their course. Gee. Thanks. They happen to be brown-skinned pagans, anyway, so that makes it easier. 100,000 plus souls and counting, all sent to hell in the blink of an eye right after Christmas.

Now...any Christian out there who thinks there's anything inaccurate in this paragraph, fill me in.

To which you reply: "I would love to comment on your paragraph but it's more fun to just call you a flaming idiot so that's what I decided to do."

Well, gee, Knight. Knock yourself out and comment, or something. I'm glad Peter and Paul didn't use this approach. "You know, I see that altar over there to THE UNKNOWN GOD? And I'd love to comment on this pagan altar but you know what? You heathens are just flaming idiots. I'm outta here."

Actually, I'd personally have rather had the apostles take that approach. Might've stunted the spread of your faith...:D

[Knight]

Originally posted by Sozo

I have not seen one person give him the credit. I know he claims to be able to do exorcisms, but I doubt that he can cause earthquakes. :freak: I bet if good ol' Jay (AKA freak) were there he could have exocized that tsunami.

[Granite]

Originally posted by Sozo

I have not seen one person give him the credit. I know he claims to be able to do exorcisms, but I doubt that he can cause earthquakes. :freak:

Useful, Sozo, as always. You have anything serious to say or are you gonna keep chucking turds all night?:cool:

[Knight]

Originally posted by granite1010

"God can and does comfort those that desire His comfort. God can also give people wisdom in such situations. These are the things that prayer can affect."

Ah. So, those in Asia who were killed, injured, and maimed either weren't asking for his comfort--and got creamed--or were just the victims of dumb, stupid luck. No...... you retard! But the survivors and victims families can get comfort now through prayer. :duh:

Question: why the world would someone who is now homeless, family dead and possessions washed out to sea, want to pray to the deity who just caused this destruction? "Lord...you either directly caused this tragedy and killed my family; you let it happen, and didn't intervene; or, this caught you by surprise. Either way, help me out." Why the world would a vindictive, or incompetant, or disinterested deity be anyone these people would want to beseech?Only numbskulls think that God ordained the Tsunami so you can ask them OK?

[Knight]

Originally posted by granite1010

Useful, Sozo, as always. You have anything serious to say or are you gonna keep chucking turds all night?:cool: As if you are looking for serious responses! :ha:

granite1010 you are a fraud and everyone knows it. You came on TOL acting like a Christian and then pretended that you rejected your "faith" but we all know better. You are a joke and a fool and deserve little more than being mocked and ridiculed.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by granite1010

Useful, Sozo, as always. You have anything serious to say or are you gonna keep chucking turds all night?:cool:

:chuckle:

As long as you keep feasting on 'em, I'll keep on chuckin' 'em!

[Granite]

"Only numbskulls think that God ordained the Tsunami so you can ask them OK?"

I wasn't interested in just those who held that position. And if you had reading comprehension beyond a Jesus Freak Pew Groveler's level, you would know that. Or pay attention. One of the two.

Then there's this gem by Knight:

"As if you are looking for serious responses!"

An altar to the UNKNOWN GOD? Oh, you people! I am so outta here. I got a church in Corinth and I'll go pack my bags and preach to the choir.

I mean, seriously, Knight. Until some professing Christian here actually answers me, unlike the love fest between you and Sozo here, who's to say I'm wrong? And has anybody here really tackled the issue, namely, that God ordained this, let it happen, or was sleeping on the job and got taken by surprise? Answer: nope, not yet. There has to be a reason why.

"You came on TOL acting like a Christian..."

Ah, yes. A five-point Calvinist postmillenialist, which I was a year ago.

"...and then pretended that you rejected your 'faith' but we all know better. You are a joke and a fool and deserve little more than being mocked and ridiculed."

Who's "we"? If it's you and Sozo in heaven I'll take a front and center seat in hell, thank you kindly. Knight, you're a smart guy. You really buy into this Rube Goldberg BS? That for close to a solid year I "masqueraded" as a Christian, then decided to drop the routine? For what gain, and for why? What, exactly, am I trying to pull here? The only person close to this level of paranoia was crythvn, the anti-semite bigot who thought I was ashamed of being half-Jewish (which I shared with people when asked, by the way). C'mon. Don't join the Evil Jew Conspiracy Theory Club, or anything.

So far nobody here's answered my questions, which isn't unusual. And instead I get this conspiracy theory routine instead. When I showed up at TOL I thought one thing. Now I think another. If a person changing their beliefs rocks the little worlds of some posters out there, you people need to get out more.

[Prisca]

granite1010, “If this was not an incident caused directly by God himself, he either was caught off guard or was so indifferent that he just let things take their course. Gee. Thanks. They happen to be brown-skinned pagans, anyway, so that makes it easier. 100,000 plus souls and counting, all sent to hell in the blink of an eye right after Christmas.

Perhaps God let things take their course, but was also in no way indifferent. Sort of like raising kids. We can’t and don’t protect them from everything, even when we know bad things can happen to them. And we can’t even sort everything out in the end the way God can.

Because of His justice and mercy, we can know that no one ends up in hell that doesn’t belong there. Many of those who perished called out to God in their final moments. Others, who survived, will turn to Him for help. Still others may lose their faith. Many will forever live apart from the God they never cared to know in the first place.

[Z Man]

Originally posted by drbrumley

You said God created the physics of it, thereby if your milk spoils, its God's fault for allowing your milk to spoil.

So, in the case of the tsunami's, God in your view, created the Tsunami directly or allowed the tsunami because He created the physics of it, or something to that effect. Thereby, any way you look at it, God directly killed up to 100,000 with this, or he allowed it. Am I close?
No, you're right on. :thumb:

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Yes... it does matter. That is one crummy translation.
Then don't read it...
Why would you say that?

Is it because you inherently believe in freewill?

Why would you ask me to do something that you claim only God can do? :think:
It was a figure of speech Knight. I was not questioning your salvation or anything; I believe you're saved. I was not suggesting that you 'surrender' your will to Him. I was simply stating that you should ease your mind with the comfort of knowing that God is in complete control. Stop trying to hold on to control over your life, because it's all done in vain.


Nice try though. You totally and conviently decided to not respond to anything more important that I had posted concerning predestination. You are becoming famous for that; running whenever your views are challenged and you have no direct response. Please go back and do try to muster up a better response to post #54 (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=646582#post646582). If you don't, I'll just assume that you either agree or that you realize you really can't argue with Scripture...

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Only numbskulls think that God ordained the Tsunami so you can ask them OK?
Those 'numbskulls' seem to be the only ones with Biblical knowledge on this 'theology' website:

Job 26:12, 14
He stirs up the sea with His power, And by His understanding He breaks up the storm. ... But the thunder of His power who can understand?

Job 38:4-11
"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut in the sea with doors, when it burst forth and issued from the womb; When I made the clouds its garment, and thick darkness its swaddling band; When I fixed My limit for it, and set bars and doors; when I said, 'This far you may come, but no farther, and here your proud waves must stop!'

Psalms 33:7
He gathers the waters of the sea together as a heap; He lays up the deep in storehouses.

Psalms 89:9; 93:4,5
You rule the raging of the sea; when its waves rise, You still them.

The Lord on high is mightier than the noise of many waters, than the mighty waves of the sea. The sea is His, for He made it; and His hands formed the dry land.

[Delmar]

Originally posted by Knight

I can see that connection.

Although this wasn't a specific judgment against a specific group of people. Correct! A random event, set in motion by a specific judgment long ago.

[Frank Ernest]

Originally posted by Wamba :thefool:

I wonder how many people seriously think it's "A conspiracy staged by the Bush Administration" :think:

I think we'll find out shortly, now that you have posed the question.

[STONE]

Originally posted by Knight
OK... so what are you saying? I am still confused about your view.
Was the tsunami God's handiwork or not?

God created the Earth and it's systems; tsunamis, quakes, tornatos, hurricanes, lightning, torrential rains, and all natural events that can do damage are included.
This is no secret; I assume you are already aware of this.

Does this make God uncaring because His world can be distructive?
No. Man's wicked ways separate him from God's protecton.

Why do believers die still? Because the last enemy, death, has not been destroyed yet (death is reserved for destruction), but will be at His coming for those who believe.

There is reason throughout God's creation, though the hard heart denies this, or denies God, based on their own judgement and lack of understanding.

[Rolf Ernst]

Granite1010--some people are never reconciled to the fact that "the wages of sin is death." They still hear the sound of satan's lie in their ear--"you shall not surely die."

Others have never really studied the Bible. They have likely done nothing more than listen to syrupy, sappy sermons about a God whose first purpose is to make everyone comfortable. Many preachers teach that because if they preached that there really is a God who destroyed the earth and all in it with the exception of Noah and his family, their congregation would leave.
Nevertheless, the wish of some men for a God who does not govern the world in righteousness and execute His judgements will never be fulfilled.

If they think it is all about people suffering God's wrath because they are brown skinned, they should stick around--at least until God's longsuffering toward them is at an end. Their day will come, either one at a time or by multiplied thousands at a time. If God chooses to carry away hundreds of thousands at a time rather than individually, oh vain man, WHAT IS THAT TO YOU? WHO MADE you THE GOVERNOR OF THE UNIVERSE? "He dsoes according to His will in the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none can stay His hand or say unto Him, what are you doing?"

Of course, the blasphemous and the unschooled on the TOL forum will still think it is their right to either question Him or else deny the reality of His judgements in the earth.

[Granite]

Originally posted by Becky

Perhaps God let things take their course, but was also in no way indifferent. Sort of like raising kids. We can’t and don’t protect them from everything, even when we know bad things can happen to them. And we can’t even sort everything out in the end the way God can.

Because of His justice and mercy, we can know that no one ends up in hell that doesn’t belong there. Many of those who perished called out to God in their final moments. Others, who survived, will turn to Him for help. Still others may lose their faith. Many will forever live apart from the God they never cared to know in the first place.

The parent analogy breaks down--like most--because parents don't happen to possess omniscience or omnipotence (despite what they might tell you).

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man
I was not suggesting that you 'surrender' your will to Him. I was simply stating that you should ease your mind with the comfort of knowing that God is in complete control. Stop trying to hold on to control over your life, because it's all done in vain. :ha: There you go again! Z Man cannot contain his own ingerent belief in my freewill.

Why do you keep asking me to do things that you preach I have no control over?

You ask me to....
"Stop trying to hold on to control over your life"

That is just so silly coming from you! If I am indeed attempting to "control my own life" wouldn't that be something that God is making me do? (according to you that is)

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to ask God...
"God stop letting Knight attempt to control his own life."

But even that would be a contradiction in your own theology wouldn't it? Because you claim that God cannot be moved by prayer therefore you asking God to do something would also be meaningless.

So I ask again....
Z Man.... why do you bother to ask me to do something that you preach I cannot do?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

:ha: There you go again! Z Man cannot contain his own ingerent belief in my freewill.

Why do you keep asking me to do things that you preach I have no control over?

You ask me to....
"Stop trying to hold on to control over your life"

That is just so silly coming from you! If I am indeed attempting to "control my own life" wouldn't that be something that God is making me do? (according to you that is)

Wouldn't it be more appropriate for you to ask God...
"God stop letting Knight attempt to control his own life."

But even that would be a contradiction in your own theology wouldn't it? Because you claim that God cannot be moved by prayer therefore you asking God to do something would also be meaningless.

So I ask again....
Z Man.... why do you bother to ask me to do something that you preach I cannot do?
Knight,

In your own words, you're a flaming idiot. We've been over this a zillion times, and yet you still act like we've just met and you have no idea what I believe. Your thoughts, your intentions of your heart, your plans - they're all yours. God did not 'implant' them into your brain. I simply stated that you should ease your own mind of thinking that you are in control. I am not suggesting that you actually hand over control to God, because I know that in reality, He already has it. I just want you to understand that. When you do, you'll feel a lot better.

Asking you to ease your mind over the vain thought that you have control is not out of your grasp.

[Z Man]

P.S. Why do you ignore the important debate about predestination?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

P.S. Why do you ignore the important debate about predestination? This last volley is far more pertinent.

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

Knight,

In your own words, you're a flaming idiot. Why thank you.

You continue...We've been over this a zillion times, and yet you still act like we've just met and you have no idea what I believe.When I crush an opponent I do not abandon my winning argument.

400
Z Man cannot type one paragraph without contradicting himself!

Wanna see?

Get ready now, this is gonna be fun!

Pay close attention now folks...

Z Man's Statement #1.....Your thoughts, your intentions of your heart, your plans - they're all yours. God did not 'implant' them into your brain.
Z Man's Statement #2.... Keep in mind this in the same paragraph as statement #1! (amazing but true)I am not suggesting that you actually hand over control to God, because I know that in reality, He already has it. So what have we learned once again about Z Man?

A. He proves that he inherently believes in freewill and cannot even disguise it when he talks.

B. His theology is so perverted that he cannot even type a single paragraph with contradicting himself.

[JRHoffman]

Two things of interest came out concerning this tragic event:
1) the animals knew enough to flee from the coming flood. Very few died from the tsunami.
2) the warning was sent to many of the countries that the flood was coming but it was ignored.
In both cases the an early warning system in place. The first in nature and the second an invention of man. The animals listened, man did not, which has been the case since the creation of man. God told Adam, "do not eat of the fruit or you will surely die." But he ignored the warning and death entered the world.
Noah built the ark and for 100 years the peoples of the earth had a chance to build and escape the coming judgment but they ignored the warning and laughed at Noah.
120,000+ people passed into eternity this past week many with out Christ because the warning was ignored.
Scripture tells us another flood is coming a flood of fire. When this flood comes billions of people will pass into eternity without Christ because they ignored the warning.
Granite1010 may well be one of them. He cries that no one has the answers but on that day when he kneels in the presence of God he will understand that he was given the answers. They were just not the ones he wanted to hear. The warnings and the answers are clear. Trust Christ as Lord and Savior and live, reject Him and die. That might not be what the world desires to hear but it is the truth and it is the answer.

[Shadowx]

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’

It was the New Living Translation. But does it matter? Both versions say the same thing.

Zman said: "Why wouldn't it? Isn't everything His? He is the supreme Sovereign God, and, news flash, you're not in control - He is. Surrender to Him already, for pete's sake!

Yes, you like that idea, it makes you fill more comfortable with your sins.

You think he was pleased that mankind became utterly wicked pre flood? Was God jumping for joy, in pleasure, quoting your Calvinist writers who you got that verse from?
Or was he grieved about it ...wishing he had never made man...?

Was God pleased with the following? Did he wish for it?
O I wish David would give occasion to my enemies to blaspheme me..., because it pleases me..

2Sa 11:27 And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

Psa 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Is God pleased with wickedness, because it's directly part of what he wishes?

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased , and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Was God pleased that the disciples disobeyed Him here? Did he wish this? God the son is much displeased with God the father's decree.., that the disciples should hinder children..

God often displeased with his hand puppets...

Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

Was God pleased here? Is this part of his wishes?
Zmans interp, "..The Lord saw that there was no justice or truth and He was much pleased with it, because he is pleased with everything HE DOES and wished it all to happen"

He only does that which glorifies Him and it REALLY glorifies Him when truth fails..and there is no judgment. :nono:

Those who flee from wickedness are persecuted by those who don't...and judgment favors the wicked..(God doesn't like it..., but that's what he wants..I can see it now, God shaking his head in displeasure and frustration..over his own will..)

Zec 1:2 The LORD hath been sore displeased with your fathers.

Was God pleased here Z?

Zec 1:3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.
Zec 1:4 Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me saith the LORD.

Was God pleased that they didn't listen to his voice? Oh wait..they were listening to His "Secretly decreed" voice and he was upset with them for obeying it..

Zman you are.. ..:kookoo:

[Knight]

Originally posted by Shadowx

Zman said: "Why wouldn't it? Isn't everything His? He is the supreme Sovereign God, and, news flash, you're not in control - He is. Surrender to Him already, for pete's sake!

Yes, you like that idea, it makes you fill more comfortable with your sins.

You think he was pleased that mankind became utterly wicked pre flood? Was God jumping for joy, in pleasure, quoting your Calvinist writers who you got that verse from?
Or was he grieved about it ...wishing he had never made man...?

Was God pleased with the following? Did he wish for it?
O I wish David would give occasion to my enemies to blaspheme me..., because it pleases me..

2Sa 11:27 And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.

Psa 5:4 For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Is God pleased with wickedness, because it's directly part of what he wishes?

Mar 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased , and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Was God pleased that the disciples disobeyed Him here? Did he wish this? God the son is much displeased with God the father's decree.., that the disciples should hinder children..

God often displeased with his hand puppets...

Isa 59:15 Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey: and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment.

Was God pleased here? Is this part of his wishes?
Zmans interp, "..The Lord saw that there was no justice or truth and He was much pleased with it, because he is pleased with everything HE DOES and wished it all to happen"

He only does that which glorifies Him and it REALLY glorifies Him when truth fails..and there is no judgment. :nono:

Those who flee from wickedness are persecuted by those who don't...and judgment favors the wicked..(God doesn't like it..., but that's what he wants..I can see it now, God shaking his head in displeasure and frustration..over his own will..)

Zec 1:2 The LORD hath been sore displeased with your fathers.

Was God pleased here Z?

Zec 1:3 Therefore say thou unto them, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye unto me, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will turn unto you, saith the LORD of hosts.
Zec 1:4 Be ye not as your fathers, unto whom the former prophets have cried, saying, Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Turn ye now from your evil ways, and from your evil doings: but they did not hear, nor hearken unto me saith the LORD.

Was God pleased that they didn't listen to his voice? Oh wait..they were listening to His "Secretly decreed" voice and he was upset with them for obeying it..

Zman you are.. ..:kookoo: :first: POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17800)

[Edgar Caiña]

Originally posted by billwald

The Intelligent Designer intelligently designed a world that requires random earth quakes.

Let's put it this way: "The Intelligent, Benevolent, Holy, Loving, Designer intelligently, benevolently, lovingly designed a world that requires random earth quakes that would kill hundred thousands of people... and he certainly knew that is going to happen."

[JRHoffman]

Originally posted by Edgar Caiña

Let's put it this way: "The Intelligent, Benevolent, Holy, Loving, Designer intelligently, benevolently, lovingly designed a world that requires random earth quakes that would kill hundred thousands of people... and he certainly knew that is going to happen."

Or it could be put this way: The Intelligent, Benevolent, Holy, Loving, Designer intelligently, benevolently, lovingly designed a world that did not require random earth quakes for there was no death in the original design. But man following after the lure of Satan rejected the perfect holy designer which resulted in the imperfect unholy world which now brings death. God certainly knew it was going to happen but He certainly did not create it that way.

[julie21]

JRHoffman: QUOTE 2) the warning was sent to many of the countries that the flood was coming but it was ignored.
In both cases the an early warning system in place. The first in nature and the second an invention of man. The animals listened, man did not, which has been the case since the creation of man.

:rolleyes:
I believe that if you research this event properly, you will find that the countries within the Asean region hit by the Tsunami, did not have a prior warning system, thereby did not really have the option to either listen or ignore. I think you will find that there were many animals also killed, but animals have a natural in-built 'sixth sense' as it were for earthly disturbances, being known to pick up on danger well before humans can and so hightail it out of the place.

Maybe you should check the actual facts first, then make your argument based on them...much more convincing if you do that!!!

[JRHoffman]

Originally posted by julie21

JRHoffman: QUOTE 2) the warning was sent to many of the countries that the flood was coming but it was ignored.
In both cases the an early warning system in place. The first in nature and the second an invention of man. The animals listened, man did not, which has been the case since the creation of man.

:rolleyes:
I believe that if you research this event properly, you will find that the countries within the Asean region hit by the Tsunami, did not have a prior warning system, thereby did not really have the option to either listen or ignore. I think you will find that there were many animals also killed, but animals have a natural in-built 'sixth sense' as it were for earthly disturbances, being known to pick up on danger well before humans can and so hightail it out of the place.

Maybe you should check the actual facts first, then make your argument based on them...much more convincing if you do that!!!

Fact 1: Although some areas were remote and had no early warning system many were warned by the two tsunami montitoring sites that it was coming and they chose to ignore the warning. The authorities in those countries admitted such.

Fact 2. Very few animals were found, in one part of India where there is a large population of elephants, not a single elephant died.

The facts were checked before the post.

[aikido7]

There is one factor that I am surprised no one here brought up:

Bill and Hillary CLINTON

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by aikido7

There is one factor that I am surprised no one here brought up:

Bill and Hillary CLINTON



What do those pathological liars have to do with the topic we are discussing?

Pay attention, commie, you might actually learn something.

[Granite]

"Granite1010 may well be one of them."

Hey JR! Welcome to TOL and Happy New Year.

"He cries that no one has the answers..."

No, I didn't. I said the Christian answers didn't work. My answer's fairly pragmatic: stuff happens. Maybe a rookie like you should actually get to know someone before making silly blanket comments and snap judgments. Savvy?

"...but on that day when he kneels in the presence of God he will understand that he was given the answers."

This kind of toothless, paper tiger threat is real old and very, very boring. Is this the best you people can do? When all else fails and you can't hold an argument, you revert to "Jesus Is Gonna Burn You in Hell When You Die!" Very effective...

Either God knew this was going to happen, he allowed it to happen, or he was caught by surprise. With this in mind, why would the victims of this tragedy WANT to pray to a deity who is either asleep at the wheel, deliberately vicious, or falling down on the job?

[Z Man]

Originally posted by Knight

Why thank you.

You continue...When I crush an opponent I do not abandon my winning argument.

400
Z Man cannot type one paragraph without contradicting himself!

Wanna see?

Get ready now, this is gonna be fun!

Pay close attention now folks...

Z Man's Statement #1.....
Z Man's Statement #2.... Keep in mind this in the same paragraph as statement #1! (amazing but true)So what have we learned once again about Z Man?

A. He proves that he inherently believes in freewill and cannot even disguise it when he talks.

B. His theology is so perverted that he cannot even type a single paragraph with contradicting himself.
:confused:

What's so hard about understanding that God can be in complete control, and yet, He is not directly 'thinking' for us?

I assume that your nickpickiness over minor issues of what you believe to be contridictions in my posts is done on purpose so that you can avoid answering to the more important issues that are brought up. You intentionally deviate from the main topic and get all side tracked and worked up over petty issues. You're a horrible debater. You don't take anything serious. You only avoid my posts because you're only protecting your beliefs. I challenge them, you change the subject. It's becoming routine for you...

[1Way]

Z Man,
Routine? Routine you say... The more important issues are matters of foundational truth! Who cares if a particular topic is generally considered more important, that is true for those of us who tend to engage in non-contradictory discussions. If a person does not remain consistent with their own personal beliefs, then that is a more important issue.

Again, even after Knight exposed this problem, you continue to promote the contradiction as though it's biblical truth. God having "complete control" does not allow man to have "some control".

If man has some control, then God does not have complete control.

Your responses that promote self contradiction (I just responded to another one in another thread), is like a public broadcast announcement that you are not personally interested in an honest, reasonable, logical discussion, you'd resort of self contradiction if it means protecting your personal point of view.

[Knight]

Originally posted by 1Way

Z Man,
Routine? Routine you say... The more important issues are matters of foundational truth! Who cares if a particular topic is generally considered more important, that is true for those of us who tend to engage in non-contradictory discussions. If a person does not remain consistent with their own personal beliefs, then that is a more important issue.

Again, even after Knight exposed this problem, you continue to promote the contradiction as though it's biblical truth. God having "complete control" does not allow man to have "some control".

If man has some control, then God does not have complete control.

Your responses that promote self contradiction (I just responded to another one in another thread), is like a public broadcast announcement that you are not personally interested in an honest, reasonable, logical discussion, you'd resort of self contradiction if it means protecting your personal point of view. :up: I couldn't have responded more clearly myself.

[1Way]

Granite, the number of false attacks you make is not worth the effort to correct, so I'll just give a single overall response.

The truth matters more than everything you said. Everything you said may sound good to you, but if your wrong, eternity in hell is not with sinning against the truth. You need to first discover what is true and what is false, and then secondly you need to love and appreciate the truth that can set you free if you respond appropriately.

Would you rather wish that God left your eternal fate in an ambiguous way? Would you rather He not warn you about everlasting damnation if you don't trust your life to God who loves you and wants to save you??? Please explain the truth.

Were you one of those kids who constantly rebels against higher authorities like if your parents says don't stick that fork into the wall outlet, instead you rebel against the higher authority because somehow you think you know better and just do it anyway?

Everyone understands even the invisible attributes of God so they are without excuse. Man can never rightly plead ignorance, which is the main ingredient of your position. You don't know that the God of the bible is the right way or not, so you blindly suggest it's wrong to advise someone to trust and love God who is purely looking out after your best interested for all eternity. Or am I somehow wrong?

[Knight]

Originally posted by Z Man

:confused:

What's so hard about understanding that God can be in complete control, and yet, He is not directly 'thinking' for us? Z Man.... turn on the ol' brain for a second..... please!!!

IF.... God does not directly do all of our thinking for us through His control or ordination then....

A. The future is at least partially open and you are promoting open theism.
And....
B. God does NOT control EVERYTHING. (our thoughts being the obvious exclusion)

But IF.... God is in exhaustive COMPLETE control and ordains EVERYTHING (as you have stated multiple times in the past) then....

A. The future is completely closed.
And....
B. We have no ability to do any of our own thinking as you have just stated.

You can't have it both ways Z Man. This is NOT a "minor" point but a MONUMENTAL point.

So please verify the following TWO statements with a TRUE or FALSE answer.

TRUE or FALSE? There is NOTHING (not a single detail not even a single thought of any man in history) that God does not control.

TRUE or FALSE? Humans have the ability to do some things (like have thoughts) that God does not directly control.

[missedmarks]

What Z-Man is saying dude is that God does have it both ways, that he is in complete control and that we have free will. This has been the point of view of alot of Christians for a long time. They just chalk it up to "Mystery" and the fact that things of God are beyond our human logic.

So if the Bible says A is true, and then goes on to say B is true, and if we think A and B contradict...the problem isn't with A or B or the Bible, the problem is in our inability to reconcile the two.

Not saying it's right, just trying to explain the thought process. Of course when it comes down to it, Open Theism is a very logical attempt to reconcile alot of those differences, and I'll admit that lately I've been somewhat intrigued by it.

As for the earthquake...Earthquakes happen, floods happen, people die. It seems really horrific at the moment that 100,000 people died, but that heart attacks, old age, car wrecks and a number of other tragedies are gonna kill millions this year, get over it. Death is a part of life, the end part. God let you know you were going to die, God even hinted that some of us are going to die horrifically in terrible accidents. But whenever the numbers crunch up we decide somehow something has gone terribly wrong. Plates slip, Tsunamis wipe out coastlines, Pork Rinds clog areteries...just the way things are. You want perfect give it a shot in the afterlife....

I marked other....

[1Way]

Ya, that all sounds good and well :think:, but Knight, lets take a step back
and consider the bigger picture... Doesn't logic mandate,,, :noid: now come
on now, let go of your presuppositions and really carefully contemplate
what I'm about to say. :Poly: Doesn't logic mandate or at least imply that
controlling/decreeing "everything"

actually means

controlling/decreeing just "some" things? Ah ah ahhhhhhh!!!, don't touch that mouse just yet, hold up now, no
hasty responses! It's deep, that's right, take it easy, so what if this
challenges your personal viewpoint, you owe it to everyone to give
this issue some serious consideration and time and effort.

Now please re-read the issue ten times _s_l_o_w_l_y_ so that you have
a better chance to really soak it up, and then maybe sometime in a week
or so, maybe then you'll have a solid response. :think:

Also, and perhaps more to the point, isn't it reasonable to assume that
if you can avoid a refuting issue by addressing it in several different ways,
and mixing it up with associated but tangent issues, or by using the same
concepts but violating the context, that you can sound educated and
responsive without making a cogent counterpoint response? :noway:

Don't we need to allow our closed view friends "something" to cling to? :liberals:

[Crow]

Originally posted by aikido7

There is one factor that I am surprised no one here brought up:

Bill and Hillary CLINTON

Dang it, BillyBob, you're right again.

Some idiot did bring them up.

I'll send your $10.00 by PayPal.

:mad: I outta know better than to bet against BillyBob. :bang:

[Knight]

Originally posted by missedmarks

What Z-Man is saying dude is that God does have it both ways, that he is in complete control and that we have free will. Uh... that isn't what Z Man says.

Z Man rejects any notion of freewill whatsoever.

Yet what Z Man has clearly illustrated on this very thread is that he cannot hide his inherent belief that freewill exists. In other words..... when you ask him, Z Man staunchly opposes any notion of freewill. Yet when Z Man urges me to to submit my will to God's will his inescapable belief that freewill is a reality comes oozing out of him for all the world to see.

[Knight]

Originally posted by missedmarks
So if the Bible says A is true, and then goes on to say B is true, and if we think A and B contradict...the problem isn't with A or B or the Bible, the problem is in our inability to reconcile the two. Uh... this debate (between I and Z Man) has nothing to do with what the Bible says. The Bible never once says that God ordains ALL things but that God ordains SOME things and does those "things" by bringing certain events to pass.

The discussion here is focused not on the word of God but the word of Z Man.

It is Z Man who has made the claim that God controls ALL THINGS without exception yet at the same times begs me to submit my will to God's will and tells me that I can do this because God doesn't control my thoughts. :freak:

Therefore... lets be true to the debate and understand where the irrationality lives, it lives with Z Man and not with the word of God.

[Granite]

Originally posted by 1Way

Granite, the number of false attacks you make is not worth the effort to correct, so I'll just give a single overall response.

The truth matters more than everything you said. Everything you said may sound good to you, but if your wrong, eternity in hell is not with sinning against the truth. You need to first discover what is true and what is false, and then secondly you need to love and appreciate the truth that can set you free if you respond appropriately.

Would you rather wish that God left your eternal fate in an ambiguous way? Would you rather He not warn you about everlasting damnation if you don't trust your life to God who loves you and wants to save you??? Please explain the truth.

Were you one of those kids who constantly rebels against higher authorities like if your parents says don't stick that fork into the wall outlet, instead you rebel against the higher authority because somehow you think you know better and just do it anyway?

Everyone understands even the invisible attributes of God so they are without excuse. Man can never rightly plead ignorance, which is the main ingredient of your position. You don't know that the God of the bible is the right way or not, so you blindly suggest it's wrong to advise someone to trust and love God who is purely looking out after your best interested for all eternity. Or am I somehow wrong?

1Way, this kind of laziness either tells me you're not paying attention or your head's stuck too deep in the sand to respond at all. I'm not sure what kind of "false attacks" I've made here. If you Christians can't even respond on a bulletin board, I don't think your faith or the Holy Spirit--supposedly working through you, lest we forget--is terribly formidable or convincing.

As I told Knight: this approach would have worked just wonders on Mars Hill. "An altar to the UNKNOWN GOD? You know, you heathens have made so many mistakes I'm not even going to try to correct them. Adios!" Very effective.

You don't have an answer, nor can you answer. So you make smug, self-satisfied replies. You don't debate. You don't hold a discussion. I'm not interested in a sermon from you or anybody else; I'm interested in a Christian actually holding a discussion. Thus far, you people haven't. As Gary North's fond of reminding his critics: you can't beat something with nothing.

[Knight]

Originally posted by granite1010

As I told Knight: this approach would have worked just wonders on Mars Hill. "An altar to the UNKNOWN GOD? You know, you heathens have made so many mistakes I'm not even going to try to correct them. Adios!" Very effective. Laugh out loud! :chuckle:

Granite.... if this were Mars Hill Paul would still be talking!!!

Do you realize how many times this stuff has been covered on TOL?

Let me speak for 1Way - 1Way please correct me if I am wrong about this response....

1Way isn't saying he doesn't want to respond to you necessarily but that he already knows these points have been made hundreds of times here on TOL and retards like you aren't here to listen to the answers but are here to mock God and cause trouble. (which is fine of course because we need idiots like you for the entertainment value here at TOL).

Face it granite... you are a cartoon. A silly footnote in an otherwise interesting debate.

[Granite]

"Granite.... if this were Mars Hill Paul would still be talking!!!"

I guess Enyart clones don't have a keen sense of humor...not my problem. Like the avatar, by the way, so there's hope for you yet.

You wanna worship a God who's roasting 100,000 plus Asian schmucks for a post Christmas barbecue, knock yourself out.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Crow

Dang it, BillyBob, you're right again.

Some idiot did bring them up.

I'll send your $10.00 by PayPal.

:mad: I outta know better than to bet against BillyBob. :bang:


:darwinsm:

[JRHoffman]

Originally posted by granite1010

"...but on that day when he kneels in the presence of God he will understand that he was given the answers."

This kind of toothless, paper tiger threat is real old and very, very boring. Is this the best you people can do? When all else fails and you can't hold an argument, you revert to "Jesus Is Gonna Burn You in Hell When You Die!" Very effective...

A very wise man, David I believe, said, " The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. (Ps 53:1)." Just because you choose to reject Christ and the judgment does not negate its happening. "stuff happens" might be your answer to the ills of the world but it sounds like a cop out to me

Either God knew this was going to happen, he allowed it to happen, or he was caught by surprise. With this in mind, why would the victims of this tragedy WANT to pray to a deity who is either asleep at the wheel, deliberately vicious, or falling down on the job?

1. God knew this was going to happen.
2. God allowed it to happen.
3. He was not caught by suprise.
4. He did not fall asleep at the wheel. The creator of the universe does not require sleep.
5. Was He deliberately vicious. I don't know but he has every right to be so if He choses.
6. Did He fall down on the job? Most certainly not! He does not possess our frail human traits. He is God!
7. I will pray to him just as many of those who fell victim to this tragedy because He is God and He created me for the sole purpose of worship.

[1Way]

Granite and Knight, Knight is right on the money. Granite is a nay-sayer, destruction is always easier than construction. A three year old can cut down an argument, but it takes matured wisdom to discern the truth of a matter. More to the point, your assertion Either God knew this was going to happen, he allowed it to happen, or he was caught by surprise. With this in mind, why would the victims of this tragedy WANT to pray to a deity who is either asleep at the wheel, deliberately vicious, or falling down on the job? neglects the very truth that you yourself suggested is true. Why do you assume that God can not be the God of the bible, and not simply let natural processes happen without implying that He specifically caused it to happen or not?

My theology fits your answer pretty well, but for some reason your question does not reflect our agreement that God was not behind the disaster, it just happened.

There were plenty of times in the not so recent past when God superceded the natural laws in remarkable ways. Sometimes God performed miracles on a fairly common basis while rising up Israel as His unique spokesnation to the world. However in this current dispensation that God specifically describes as Mystery and Grace and contrasts it against His previously revealed prophetic program, it is apparent that God is with all people of all nations in a new and different way, which is not typified by miraculous intervention. Despite a lot of hocus pocus Tomfoolery and much unverifiable accounts of the miraculous, God has not been known to do miracles for the last 2,000 years or so. So for you to rule out of hand that God had no involvement in a national disaster is simply wrong. God's hand was not in the earthquake nor the disastrous tidal wave that already killed scores of thousands.

It just happened, no need to necessarily impugn God for not doing what He did not do.

[1Way]

JRH, welcome to TOL! I've been gone for a while, not sure how long I'll be staying, but I hope you will enjoy your stay here.

The little I've seen of you, I think I like your style, you tend to quote God's word as though that is the ultimate source of truth and righteous faith. But I wonder about the accuracy and completeness of your response. Specifically to 1,2,4,6. In particular, God does not posses our human traits, but we posses His traits, like being rational, moral, social, intelligent creatures? I would not so quickly dismiss God's attributes as not being like ours, with the exception that God seems have a perfect record of doing right, and we have a terrible record of not doing right.

Despite how we perform with these traits, the bible explains that our traits are remarkably similar to God's. A case in point would be when Jesus wept over Israel and sighted that although He wanted to have a warm intimate relationship with her, BUT SHE WAS NOT WILLING. I find God's vulnerability and personal sense of loss there to be consoling and reminiscent of love lost that I have experienced as a "mere human".

In the movie "The Matrix", the bad guys viewed us humans in a terribly demeaning way. At one point one bad guy was about to assassinate the human hero, and said, "only human", as if to justify his actions. Tragically, many Christians have an all to similar view of the difference between humanity and God. But in God's eyes, He does not act like we are so undesirable. Instead, we are made after the image of God, we are created in His likeness, and of all of His creation, we are His most prized possession. He lavishly gave the largest sacrifice to make a way for us to live with Him forever. He only did that for us who are "human" and are called to His intimate fellowship.

Jesus is God, right? Didn't He need sleep like we do?

Lastly, just how far into the past do you think that God knew about that specific national disaster?

[Granite]

"Why do you assume that God can not be the God of the bible, and not simply let natural processes happen without implying that He specifically caused it to happen or not?"

What kind of nonsense is this? "The natural process"? You saying he let nature take its course? So did he know specifically that this was going to send 100,000 people to hell, and he simply didn't care, or was this a surprise for him? That he didn't specifically cause it to happen tells me that natural disasters are just one more thing Christians are willing to write off--whoops, that can't POSSIBLY be God--because the implications otherwise are too uncomfortable.

"It just happened..."

All right. So answer me this: if we both agree this "just happened," what's the advantage in approaching this from a Christian perspective? We agree on its causes in nature and certainly on the aftermath. We agree it's random and tragic. What do you have to offer by way of explanation that's any different from mine?

"...no need to necessarily impugn God for not doing what He did not do."

Oh sure there is. By kicking his feet back this God of yours just consigned 100,000 mostly pagan and certainly unChristian souls to torture for eternity. Your loving and merciful deity could have stopped this puppy whenever he pleased. Sounds more like we live on an ant farm than anything else.

If this kind of sadistic mass murderer is the kind of deity you want to worship, thanks but no thanks.