Does/has God ever ordain[ed] sin?

[Lighthouse]

This is a question for those who do not beleive in exhaustive predestination. I already know your answer. This is a question for those of you who believe that God predestines/ordains some things, but not all. I am one of those people. And the main reason I brought this up is that I believe that God ordained the crucifixion, and it was a sin. And this includes the role that Judas played. I beleive that God ordained that Judas would betray Jesus. And I beleive that it was a sin for Judas to do so. What do you think?

[ebenz47037]

I think I agree with you, lighthouse. I'm on the fence about predestination vs. OV. I find it hard to believe that God pre-ordained a lot of the suffering that I see going on in today's world. I believe that a lot of what I've been witnessing comes from man's choice to do evil. But, I do believe that there are some things that have been pre-ordained, including the crucifixion. I also believe that, while not pre-ordaining the bad things that happen to people, God will use those events to strengthen and/or test the Body of Christ when they occur.

[Lighthouse]

Oops! I have a typo in the poll title.:doh:

I hate that!

Anyway, *bump*

[geralduk]

We have ti learn to rightly divide the Word. and to discern good from evil.

Predestination has been the cooking pot for alot of mens opinions.
and all though tit is said every man has a right to his own opinion.
that is only tue up to a point.
Inso far as the things oif GHod are concerned in as much as they CONFORM to the WORD of God will htye be 'worth' anything.
in as much as they conform to the world they are not worth anything.

THUS any and ALL our concepts MUST be in line and conformity with the Word of God.
ALL else is false.

Predestination.

Here is a BIBLICAL concept.
and though it does not in any way cover the WHOLE subject.
it does however give a good FOUNDATION for any future thought.

and in the process will answer the original post .

It is written "That EVERY seed bringeth forth fruit AFTER its own kind"
Thus a SEED is(listen).......PREDESTINED to bring forth that fruit which is in CONFORMITY to the FRUIT from which it SPRANG!
for it is written so in GEN 1:11-12

I do then agree with the idea that the cross was a sin.
"But was made to be sin"
For he who was crucyfied upon it "knew no sin but became sin"
But" no man taketh my life from Me but I lay it down so that I might take it up again" and also "Unless a SEED fall into the ground and die it abideth alone....." but if it does it will bring forth much fruit"after its own kind"!
Look then at the parable by which we may know or understand all parables and it is written "the WORD is the SEED"
The whole thing then opens up when you consider that "in the beginning was the WORD"! and the WORD was with God and the Word was God.
Thus the WORD made FLESH was PREDESTINED to die according to the scriptures.
Not only to die but to be raised up again from the dead according to the scriptures.
"For My WORD shall not return unto Me void but shall acomplish that whereunto i sent it"
Thus it was that "it pleased God to bruise Him"!
Therefore let us seperate the light from the darkness!
In that" sin must come byut woe to Him by whom it comes"
Thus it is as even Joseph said
"You meant it for evil .."and evil it was for my and all sin brought it about.
But God had already predestined it for our salvation.
For there is only ONE palce where men who by nature are sinners can meet God who by nature is holy and live.
GHod will accept no other.For it is at the cross where SIN AND RIGHTOUSNESS meet.
and where sin is dealt with and rightousness prevails.
It is only at the foot of the cross and its reception that man acknowledges his sin and Gods rightousnes.
It is where 'sorrow and love flow mingled down'
it is where the ROCK of ages was cleft for me.
it is where the old man dies .
and the new man is raised in the image of God.
alive unto God and walking in the light.
For there he is crucyfied WITH Christ.
Buried WITH HIm by faith and raised togther with Him in rightousness.justyufied before God in Christ.


For once we werew ALL predestined to be DAMNED.
WHY>?
because we were BORNin sin and shapen in iniquity.
Because we were BORN of ADAMS seed and THAT seed is PREDESTINED unto DEATH.
bUT BY THE MERCY AND GRACE OF GOD we have now(if His) been BORN not of corruptable seed but of INCORRUPTABLE SEED and therefore now IN Christ(but not OUTSIDE) we are PREDESTINED unto LIFE!

those then who boast in thier 'election' as if they were ALWAYS predestined to that end boast in themselves!
But my boast is in Him who died for me and was raised for my justyfication.thus am I IN Him born of that INCORRUPTABLE SEED have been translated from one SEED AND THEREFORE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS
into the kingdom of Gods dear SON"to another predestination!
For we ALL are of the ONE SEED which is ADAM.
therefore we ALL "walked according to the course of this world,according to the prince of the power of the air,the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience and so on in verse 3 and were by(listen) NATURE children of WRATH"!
EPHESIANS2:1/2/3


We must therefore be carefull to which we class as darkness or light.
For allbeit the image of man was so marred that "it was unrecognisable as a mans" while he who knew no sin became sin.
Thus it can be said that the image of the first ADAM was LOST by sin.
But at the same time HE WAS recognised as the SON OF GOD by the centurian andf the thief.

So although the image of the first ADAM was lost.
the "express image of the invisible God" was not!
For He came to seek and to save that which was lost.
I do not believe that the church has yet found or understood the GREAT WORK that was wrought by God on calvary.
I know we say it often "it is the power of God unto salvation"
But oh my God we have reduced it to OUR wants.
But do not see it in then light of GODS WILL.

tHEREFORE BOAST NOT IN OUR 'ELECTION'
but in the cross of CHRIST My GOD.

in Christ
gerald uk

[Turbo]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Oops! I have a typo in the poll title.:doh:

I hate that!

Anyway, *bump* Got it.

[Mr. 5020]

It was a sin for Jesus to be crucified?

[Lighthouse]

Turbo-
Thanks.

Mr. 5020-
No, it was not a sin for Christ to die. It was a sin to kill him. Especially since he wasn't guilty of anything.

[Crow]

Originally posted by lighthouse

This is a question for those who do not beleive in exhaustive predestination. I already know your answer. This is a question for those of you who believe that God predestines/ordains some things, but not all. I am one of those people. And the main reason I brought this up is that I believe that God ordained the crucifixion, and it was a sin. And this includes the role that Judas played. I beleive that God ordained that Judas would betray Jesus. And I beleive that it was a sin for Judas to do so. What do you think?

That is similar in some ways, but not precisely, what I believe.

I do not believe that God predestined the crucifixion. I believe knowing mankind and their sinful nature, He knew that His sacrifice would be necessary to bring about reconciliation.

I don't believe that God predestined nor desired Adam's fall, but I believe that He realized that rebellion would occur.

I believe that it was a sin to crucify Christ--the people who demanded His death and illegally set Him up were under the Law. and that God foresaw, but did not predestine, that the majority of mankind would act with predictable wickedness when He appeared in the flesh under their very noses, and not only reject Him but that many would seek to kill Him.

I believe that God foresaw, but did not predestine, that Satan would predictably play his role in the crucifixion, which was in keeping with his hatred of mankind--after all, remember what started the rebellion in heaven. Was he going to go along with God's creation of man when he himself had been cast away, or was he going try to subvert God's will?

Was Judas forced to yield to Satan? I don't believe so. Christ was tempted by Satan and refused to yield, but more telling in the case of Judas, Job resisted the worst that Satan had to throw at Him. Job showed us that we have the ablilty to resist Satan, and under far worse hardship than most of us will ever face. Judas chose to yield to Satan.

God does desire that all men come to Him, and He predestined that those who accept Him as savior will be saved by His righteousness, and that He became flesh and sacrificed His physical life to make this possible. He also predestines His return and other events that occur surrounding that event and subsequent to it.

[Lighthouse]

If God ordained Christ's sacrafice then didn't He ordain that someone would kill Him? I'm not saying that God ordained that from the beginning. I agree that God did not know that Adam and Eve would fall. That's why I so readily accepted Open Theism, because I couldn't believe that God knew Adam and Eve would fall.

[Crow]

Originally posted by lighthouse

If God ordained Christ's sacrafice then didn't He ordain that someone would kill Him? I'm not saying that God ordained that from the beginning. I agree that God did not know that Adam and Eve would fall. That's why I so readily accepted Open Theism, because I couldn't believe that God knew Adam and Eve would fall.

I don't believe that God preordained the crucifixion, I believe that He foresaw that it would occur. Had mankind never rebelled against God, there would be no need for His sacrifice. All the same, God knows His creation, and the propensity of creations with freewill to rebel. Knowing what is going to happen based upon the predictability and nature of the elements concerned is not the same as predestining.

[Lighthouse]

So, you don't believe that there was any time that God ordained Christ to die? I don't mean the crucifixion specifically.

[Crow]

Originally posted by lighthouse

So, you don't believe that there was any time that God ordained Christ to die? I don't mean the crucifixion specifically.

I believe that the crucifixion was God's response to human rebellion which broke the relationship between God and His creation.

I believe that God did not ordain Christ to die. The Son and the Father are both God. Rather, I believe that God chose to be sacrificed for us.

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Crow

I don't believe that God predestined nor desired Adam's fall, but I believe that He realized that rebellion would occur.
Is that because Satan, similar to humans in that he had free will (?), had already rebelled?

[Crow]

Originally posted by Lucky

Is that because Satan, similar to humans in that he had free will (?), had already rebelled?

Satan and about a third of the other angels. Yup.

[Lighthouse]

So you don't consider His choosing to be sacraficed as Him ordaining it?:think:

What do you consider the fact that He worked to bring it to pass to be, if not ordaining it? I don't mean preordain particularly.

[Lucky]

Originally posted by Crow

Satan and about a third of the other angels. Yup.
Do you think that happened before God created Adam and Eve on the 6th day? Or was it after He created Adam and Eve but before they ate the forbidden fruit?

[Crow]

Originally posted by lighthouse

So you don't consider His choosing to be sacraficed as Him ordaining it?:think:

What do you consider the fact that He worked to bring it to pass to be, if not ordaining it? I don't mean preordain particularly.

I don't believe that Christ worked with the intent of getting killed. I believe that it was a forseeable consequence of presenting Himself to mankind and mankind's rejection of God's sovereignty, and that He chose to allow it to happen, and knew that it would happen. He chose to allow Himself to be martyred to bring reconciliation for us by His Grace.

I can see similarities in the way that Stephen was martyred. It was a forseeable consequence of achieving his purpose. It was the price he paid to do what was right--to speak the truth.

[Lighthouse]

I'd like to give my thoughts on that question, Lucky.

I believe it was after the creation of Adam, and most likely after the creation of Eve, as well. IIRC, Lucifer was angry because God afforded man more freedom than He afforded the angels.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Crow

I don't believe that Christ worked with the intent of getting killed. I believe that it was a forseeable consequence of presenting Himself to mankind and mankind's rejection of God's sovereignty, and that He chose to allow it to happen, and knew that it would happen. He chose to allow Himself to be martyred to bring reconciliation for us by His Grace.

I can see similarities in the way that Stephen was martyred. It was a forseeable consequence of achieving his purpose. It was the price he paid to do what was right--to speak the truth.
Okay.

Do you believe that Christ was born to die? Did He know that He was going to die for our sins?

[Crow]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Okay.

Do you believe that Christ was born to die? Did He know that He was going to die for our sins?

He knew what mankind's response to Him would be. Isaiah 53 shows that He knew before He became flesh. I don't believe that He was born for the purpose of dying, but He knew that it would happen.

If a man in combat throws himself upon a grenade, he does not do so for the purpose of being killed. He does it to save others, and knows what is going to happen to him when he chooses to do so.

[Lucky]

Originally posted by lighthouse

I believe it was after the creation of Adam, and most likely after the creation of Eve, as well. IIRC, Lucifer was angry because God afforded man more freedom than He afforded the angels.
Let me know if you find a scripture reference of that.

[Frank Ernest]

Originally posted by :lucky:

Let me know if you find a scripture reference of that.
I do believe there is a confusion between creation and replenishment. Genesis 1:1 gives creation. Genesis 1:2 says that the created earth became "without form and void." Genesis 1:3 and on should be understood as God replenishing an already created earth, which, for some reason, He destroyed.

Moving right along to Satan and the rebellion,
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

The rebellion of Satan was before the replenishment of the earth and the creation of Adam and Eve. The reason is clear. At some point, Satan desired to take the place of the Christ and do it his way. In early Genesis we have Satan who is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Christ Who is the Tree of Life.

Satan's continued existence and influence is a testimony to the forebearance of God toward His children. Satan has the same opportunity to come to the Father, love Him and do His will. He chose the way of sin and death. Even a loving Father will run out of patience. Revelation says He will and He will come to judge.

Did God predestine Satan to sin? No, angels were created with free will. God's objective is, was, and always has been that we should come to Him and love Him of our own free will and not by His command. God could certainly command it, but of what satisfaction would that be? Humankind is certainly capable of devising and building faithful robots. We do it all the time. But do these robots "love" us? No, they don't. They do what we tell them without emotion or question. Useful, but hardly soul-satisfying.

Now we come to the question of why does God allow what He allows. Satan is one of God's children as are you and me. Does God want to kill off any of his children? No, He wants them to come to Him and love Him. What sense does it make to kill off that which one creates, especially a child? (An abortionist might make sense of it, but I, alas, cannot.)

Why is the world set up the way it is? God chose to make it that way knowing that it could go wrong. God obviously has the free will to do what He chooses. Can God correct the situation? Yes, in His own time and in the way he chooses to.

Jesus and Revelation say stay tuned, film at the millennium.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Crow

He knew what mankind's response to Him would be. Isaiah 53 shows that He knew before He became flesh. I don't believe that He was born for the purpose of dying, but He knew that it would happen.

If a man in combat throws himself upon a grenade, he does not do so for the purpose of being killed. He does it to save others, and knows what is going to happen to him when he chooses to do so.
Okay...:confused:

Was He born for the purpose of saving us, and did he know that He was going to have to die in order for that to be accomplished?

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Lucky

Let me know if you find a scripture reference of that.
Certainly.

[Ya'nar#1]

Interesting question . . .


I checked the dict. for the word "ordain":

Two definitions:

1) to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or sacerdotal authority

2) to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law: enact, decree; specif: destine, predestine: to issue an order -- ordainer (n) -- ordainment (n)


Definition for the word "SIN":

1a) An offense against God

1b) misdeed; fault; offense

2a) transgression of the law of God ("Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." see also: 1 John 3:4)

2b) a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God


COMMENT: God, being holy, (or Himself a thoroughly HOLY entity or personage), it would be impossible for someone of His pure and innocent character to confer (or "ordain") the nature of sin (or corruption, or an evil nature) upon beings who He had already bestowed a holy, or uncorrupt nature. Having just come from the hand of their Creator, they were the express "image" of Himself. If such a thing were hypothetically possible, then God would be at odds with Himself. Furthermore, the condition of sin is not something that can be given or taken back. The condition of a sinful nature is the reward of rebellion against God. Unfortunately, the corrupting natue of sin is so pervasive and ultimately so consuming, that it is impossible for mankind to again become holy, apart from God's intervention. Hence the need for the crucifixion of Jesus CHrist. He took our place on the cross. Without this precious Sacrifice, we were all marked for eternal death. How can we conceive the depth and height and breadth of this Eternal love? How can we not return this love in deepest gratitude to God? . . . And yet, even here on this board, we are confronted by those who dare to laugh in the face of One who every day feeds and protects them from terrible harm? Were it not for the presence of faithful Christians who in prayer turn to God for help and protection, these unthankful ones would experience all the gruesome harm that Satan's evil mind can devise! But God is listening: ". . . the fervent prayer of the rightous availeth much" He says in James 5:16; Proverbs 15:29.

God Bless!

Ya'nar :Princess:

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by Ya'nar#1

Interesting question . . .


I checked the dict. for the word "ordain":

Two definitions:

1) to invest officially (as by the laying on of hands) with ministerial or sacerdotal authority

2) to establish or order by appointment, decree, or law: enact, decree; specif: destine, predestine: to issue an order -- ordainer (n) -- ordainment (n)


Definition for the word "SIN":

1a) An offense against God

1b) misdeed; fault; offense

2a) transgression of the law of God ("Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." see also: 1 John 3:4)

2b) a vitiated state of human nature in which the self is estranged from God


COMMENT: God, being holy, (or Himself a thoroughly HOLY entity or personage), it would be impossible for someone of His pure and innocent character to confer (or "ordain") the nature of sin (or corruption, or an evil nature) upon beings who He had already bestowed a holy, or uncorrupt nature. Having just come from the hand of their Creator, they were the express "image" of Himself. If such a thing were hypothetically possible, then God would be at odds with Himself. Furthermore, the condition of sin is not something that can be given or taken back. The condition of a sinful nature is the reward of rebellion against God. Unfortunately, the corrupting natue of sin is so pervasive and ultimately so consuming, that it is impossible for mankind to again become holy, apart from God's intervention. Hence the need for the crucifixion of Jesus CHrist. He took our place on the cross. Without this precious Sacrifice, we were all marked for eternal death. How can we conceive the depth and height and breadth of this Eternal love? How can we not return this love in deepest gratitude to God? . . . And yet, even here on this board, we are confronted by those who dare to laugh in the face of One who every day feeds and protects them from terrible harm? Were it not for the presence of faithful Christians who in prayer turn to God for help and protection, these unthankful ones would experience all the gruesome harm that Satan's evil mind can devise! But God is listening: ". . . the fervent prayer of the rightous availeth much" He says in James 5:16; Proverbs 15:29.

God Bless!

Ya'nar :Princess:
Where in the world have you been?!

[Ya'nar#1]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Where in the world have you been?!


:wave: Hi lighthouse!

Good to hear from you again.

June 14 I had emergency surgery. I was in the hospital until Sept. 8, and after that I came home, but have had to return to the hospital 3 times between then and now due to complications.

The Lord saved my life, because the gangrene in my colon was quickly killing me, and because I was unconscious and thus was unable to sign the requisite papers, no doctor would touch me. In desperation, my family doc appealed to the last surgeon available--and he grudgingly agreed. When I finally went home in Sept. I was still unable to walk, due to prolonged bed rest from the abdominal surgery. It's taken me awhile, but after much prayer and effort, the physical therapist was able to teach me how to walk again. Sooooo . . . I'm BACK!!!!

I've missed talking with everyone so much. And I'm so very glad to be able to join in the discussions once more!

God Bless,

Ya'nar :Princess:

[Lighthouse]

Cool.

[swanca99]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Was He born for the purpose of saving us, and did he know that He was going to have to die in order for that to be accomplished?

I believe He was. In Matthew 1:21, the angel told Joseph, "He shall save His people from their sins." According to passages in Hebrews, it was necessary for blood to be shed for that to happen, and his was the "once for all" sacrifice that brought it about.

Paul said that Christ came into the world to save sinners. How else was that to be done?

Check out 1 Peter 1:18-20. In v. 20 it says that Jesus was "foreordained." Although it does not specifically state that he was foreordained to die, this statement IS in the context of our being redeemed by His precious blood.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by lighthouse

This is a question for those who do not beleive in exhaustive predestination. I already know your answer. This is a question for those of you who believe that God predestines/ordains some things, but not all. I am one of those people. And the main reason I brought this up is that I believe that God ordained the crucifixion, and it was a sin. And this includes the role that Judas played. I beleive that God ordained that Judas would betray Jesus. And I beleive that it was a sin for Judas to do so. What do you think?

God ordained the plan of redemption as a possibility from the foundations of the world. He implemented the potential plan as a certainty after the Fall (Gen. 3). It became an actuality in about 29 A.D. The Old Covenant and animal sacrifices are the shadow/type pointing to the Lamb of God who would take away the sin of the world. The suffering and death of the Messiah was prefigured and prophesied about for hundreds of years.

Boyd and most Open Theists do not feel that Judas was specifically ordained to be the betrayer, even before he was born. This is problematic in that it negates free will, makes God arbitrary and responsible for evil, rather than Judas himself. If Judas would not have betrayed Christ, someone else would have. The OT prophecy does not name him specifically (unlike Cyrus), but is applied to him after the fact as the fulfillment. It was a sin for Judas to reject Christ, but God did not do this. As an Open Theist and non-Calvinist, stick to your guns and look at an alternate view.

God did not have to predestine specific soldiers to kill Jesus. If soldier A did not do it, then soldier B could have done it. They tried to kill Jesus before His time. God was in control and would ensure the sacrifice would take place. He did not have to control anyone to do this, nor did it have to be A instead of B to achieve the same outcome.

[Crow]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Okay...:confused:

Was He born for the purpose of saving us, and did he know that He was going to have to die in order for that to be accomplished?

Had Israel accepted Christ as Savior, do you think He would have died, or would He have worked through His people set apart to bring His message to the rest of the world?

I believe that Christ was born for the purpose of saving us, and it would not have been necessary for Him to die to accomplish this. God can change His response to fit the situation, as He did when the angels rebelled and when man rebelled. He was going to destroy the city of Nineveh, but did not in response to man's repentance. God makes the rules- He can change them as well.

That being said, I think God also knew, based on man's rebellious and sinful nature, that He was going to make the sacrifice because it is in man's nature to rebel. God did not cause man to kill Him. He knew his subject well enough to know that it was coming.

[godrulz]

Heb. 9:22 "...without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness..."

Rev. 13:8 ; I Peter 1:20= chosen and slain before the foundation of the world (potential plan of redemption was implemented after the Fall).