Split from: What's up with the Calvin-haters?!

[ThomasJamall]

Moderator's note: This thread was split from What's up with the Calvin-haters?! (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17992&perpage=40&pagenumber=1) The debate portion was moved at ThomasJamall's request.


Calvinism is the belief that God would shove one's head underwater while yelling, "Why don't you save yourself?"


Huh:liberals:


I'm not sure what that means...

[Poly]

Originally posted by ThomasJamall

Calvinism is the belief that God would shove one's head underwater while yelling, "Why don't you save yourself?"


Huh:liberals:


I'm not sure what that means...

You wouldn't just be playing dumb, now would you?

[Turbo]

ThomasJamall,
Originally posted by Turbo

Are there any ways in which God can change?

[ThomasJamall]

Polly,

not playing dumb, I'm just not sure exactly what that quote is trying to say.... there is no part of Calvinism where God is telling us to save ourselves.

The whole point of Calvinism is that we can't save ourselves. This is why the law came, to reveal our sin, to show us that we are incapable, for there is no one who is righteous, not even one. Calvinism teaches that we are DEAD in our sin, not just really sick. This is why I believe that Calvinism must be true, for if we are dead in our sin then we can only be saved through the direct intervention of God by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. No, calvinism does not believe that God is holding us down, expecting us to save ourselves. Rather, calvinism teaches that we are dead and completely incapable of saving ourselves and God comes and breathes new life into us and leades us to the truth (sometimes kicking and screaming) that only He can save us.

Personally, I think the most important of the 5 points is the first one. If you believe that we are totally depraved, then I don't see how you can believe that we could ever choose God or contribute to our salvation in any way. So for my part, I think people should spend more time discussing this point here, rather that any of the others.

So if anyone wants to debate that piont, bring it on! :jeffrson: :Clete:

[ThomasJamall]

Oh, and Turbo, is there any way in which God can change? To be honest, I'll have to punt on that issue for right now. There are verses that seem to point both ways and I have not studied this in detail. :confused:

I prefer not to debate issues I don't know the answer to! although, I do have some ideas about it... :shut:

[Turbo]

Originally posted by ThomasJamall

If you believe that we are totally depraved, then I don't see how you can believe that we could ever choose God or contribute to our salvation in any way. So for my part, I think people should spend more time discussing this point here, rather that any of the others.

So if anyone wants to debate that piont, bring it on! :jeffrson: :Clete: Here is a post I wrote a while back on the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity:


Just because all have sinned, that does not mean that unsaved men sin constantly and are only capable of sin.

If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! Matthew 7:11Is it a sin to give good gifts to one's children?



Jesus pointed out that Samaritans did not know God:
7 There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said unto her, "Give Me to drink." 8 (For His disciples had gone away unto the city to buy meat.)
9 Then said the woman of Samaria unto Him, "How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest a drink of me, who am a woman of Samaria?" For the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said unto her, "If thou knewest the gift of God and who it is that saith to thee, `Give Me to drink,' thou wouldest have asked of Him, and He would have given thee living water."
...
19 The woman said unto Him, "Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and ye say that Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship."
21 Jesus said unto her, "Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh when ye shall neither on this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.23 But the hour cometh and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him." John 4:7-10,19-23Note that the pronouns in verse 22 are all plural. Jesus was not just saying that this woman does not know God, but that the Samaritans, as a people, did not know God. That is why He used a Samaritan to drive His point in this parable about loving your neighbor:

30Then Jesus answered and said: "A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. 31Now by chance* a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. 32Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.' 36So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?"
37And he said, "He who showed mercy on him."
Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do likewise." Luke 10:30-37

So this Samaritan was an example of one who did not know God, yet was compassionate and loving toward his neighbor. The Samaritan was surely a sinner, but in this instance did good. The Samaritan was not sinning when he cared for his neighbor, and in fact Jesus instructed others to follow his example.


*Attn: Calvinists
Isn't it odd that Jesus said 'by chance' and not 'according to God's preordination'?
You'd think He of all people would know better.

[Berean Todd]

A welcome thread isn't really the place for debate, but oh what the hell ...


Originally posted by Turbo
Is it a sin to give good gifts to one's children?

Well that depends entirely on A. your definition of sin and B. the persons motives for giving that gift.

So this Samaritan was an example of one who did not know God, yet was compassionate and loving toward his neighbor. The Samaritan was surely a sinner, but in this instance did good. The Samaritan was not sinning when he cared for his neighbor, and in fact Jesus instructed others to follow his example.

The samaritan woman at the well was an actual person who Jesus actually met and actually had a discourse with. There is absolutely no indication that the parable of the Good Samaritan was an actual event or that the person was an actual person. In fact, all contextual evidence would lead one to conclude that it was not an actual event describing actual people, but that it was, as Jesus said, a parable, and He likely choose a samaritan person for the story to more effectively make his point to his audience.


*Attn: Calvinists
Isn't it odd that Jesus said 'by chance' and not 'according to God's preordination'?
You'd think He of all people would know better.

*attn Turbo isn't it odd that Jesus said that none could come to Him lest the Father drew them? And that in the same passage He says that those who come He will in no wise throw out? So either there is predestination or you must become a smaller and preach universalism, or you must take some of the glory from god for your salvation. No other choice outside of those three.

[ThomasJamall]

Thanks for the reply, Turbo (and thanks for the support Berean Todd!.

Total depravity does not teach that people are incapable of any good; just that we are incapable of good that pleases God or that could merit salvation. Calvinists fully acknowledge that people are capable of relative good, such as all of the examples you sighted. Remember, total depravity does not teach that we are all as bad as we could be, but that every part of us is corrupted by sin, so that there is no deed that we can point to as being completely good, just as Isaiah say that all my righteous works are like filthy rags (literally used mistral cloths) Isa 64:6.

Since God's standard is perfection Matt 5:48, none of these relatively good deeds get us anywhere. This is exactly why I believe that election must be true, because if our best deeds don't get us anywhere what hope can we have outside of God's sovereign intervention?

But perhaps Berean Todd is right and we should move to another thread.....

;)

[ThomasJamall]

hello post, and welcome to your new home :granite: :WA:

[Berean Todd]

I'll await Turbo's response to my first reply to him here ...

[Granite]

Originally posted by ThomasJamall

hello post, and welcome to your new home :granite: :WA:

Hey! No using the smile without permission!:D

[Lighthouse]

:granite::granite::granite::granite::granite:

[ThomasJamall]

:eek: ouch