Who is Paul talking about?

[God_Is_Truth]

Ephesians 3
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

in verse 5, who are the "holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" Paul is talking about?

[swanca99]

It looks like "in the Spirit" refers to the way that the "mystery" was revealed to the apostles and prophets, not to the apostles and prophets themselves.

Some of the other translations seem to bear this out:

"as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit" --KJV

"as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets" -- NKJV

"as it is now revealed in the Spirit to his holy apostles and prophets" -- New Jerusalem Bible

"but God has revealed it now by the Spirit to his holy apostles and prophets" -- TEV

Perhaps somebody can check the NIV - our copy seems to have vanished.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by swanca99

...NIV - our copy seems to have vanished.
Good for you.

[God_Is_Truth]

anybody?

[Lighthouse]

*bump*

[swanca99]

Did my post (#2) not answer your question, or do you think there may be another explanation?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by swanca99

Did my post (#2) not answer your question, or do you think there may be another explanation?

no, i was wondering who the apostles and prophets mentioned were. it says it is now revealed to them, so the prophets can't be the ones of old. since they aren't of old, it makes me wonder which apostles he means as well, if perhaps he means that the 12 were "of old" like the dead prophets.

[julie21]

Could it be those who were there at Pentecost?

[swanca99]

OK - I misunderstood your question.

This would be a reference to the apostles (i.e., the 12) and the prophets of the New Testament period.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by swanca99

OK - I misunderstood your question.

This would be a reference to the apostles (i.e., the 12) and the prophets of the New Testament period.

well, i am hestitant to think that it is the 12 he is speaking of because of this passage:

1 Thessalonians 1

1Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace.

chapter 2:

1For you yourselves know, brethren, that our coming to you was not in vain

6nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority.

now in these passages, it is clear that Paul is calling not only himself, but also Silvanus and Timothy apostles of God. thus, there were more than the 12 + Paul. and since this is a letter of Paul (Ephesians that is), it suggests that it might not be the 12, but rather people like Silvanus and Timothy. but i don't know that we can rule out the 12 either which is why i have inquired as to what others thought of this verse.

[Chileice]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Ephesians 1
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

in verse 5, who are the "holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" Paul is talking about?

The Greek word apostolos really means "ones sent". Someone sent them... The Holy Spirit, as is evident in Acts 13. Paul knew he had been sent by God. He also knew he was "set apart" or "holy". He had been set apart for a specific missionary task, but he was not alone. God had spoken through the OT p`rophets by the Holy Spirit and continued to speak through those who had been sent out (apostles) through the impulse of that same Holy Spirit.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Chileice

The Greek word apostolos really means "ones sent". Someone sent them... The Holy Spirit, as is evident in Acts 13.

so that would indicate it was not the 12 sent by Jesus right?


Paul knew he had been sent by God. He also knew he was "set apart" or "holy". He had been set apart for a specific missionary task, but he was not alone. God had spoken through the OT p`rophets by the Holy Spirit and continued to speak through those who had been sent out (apostles) through the impulse of that same Holy Spirit.

that sounds right to me.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by julie21

Could it be those who were there at Pentecost?

possibly. you would have to show that at Pentecost, the "mystery" was revealed to them.

[billwald]

Paul wants the readers of the letter to assume "apostle" refers to Paul. He spends much band width trying to convince gentiles that he is a "real" apostle.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by billwald

Paul wants the readers of the letter to assume "apostle" refers to Paul. He spends much band width trying to convince gentiles that he is a "real" apostle. And you spend much bandwidth (in vain (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12952)) trying to convince us that he's not.

[swanca99]

Regarding your post #10, I did not mean to imply that it was restricted to the 12 apostles. In fact, there were at least 13 apostles anyway...dooh! Age and HBP medication have not been real kind to my memory...

[Ya'nar#1]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Ephesians 1
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

in verse 5, who are the "holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" Paul is talking about?


Hi GIT,

I think you mean Eph. 3:1-5.

At any rate, every generation has had its revelation, but never to the degree and form that the generations since the time of Christ have had. Revelation was, in a sense, progressive, calculated on the one hand to serve the best interests of each generation, limited on the other by the willful ignorance of the people, until the flood of revelation appeared in the person of Jesus Christ.

So how was the mystery "revealed"?

The mystery can be known only as God reveals it. God is not trying to keep it secret. He desires to make it known. Jesus, who is in heaven, sends His Spirit to deliver his mystery to the church. The Spirit can be everywhere at once, whereas Jesus, having taken on our human body and nature, cannot.

Blessings!

--Ya'nar :Princess:

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Ya'nar#1

Hi GIT,

I think you mean Eph. 3:1-5.

:doh:

yep, you are right. i meant Ephesians 3.


At any rate, every generation has had its revelation, but never to the degree and form that the generations since the time of Christ have had. Revelation was, in a sense, progressive, calculated on the one hand to serve the best interests of each generation, limited on the other by the willful ignorance of the people, until the flood of revelation appeared in the person of Jesus Christ.

So how was the mystery "revealed"?

The mystery can be known only as God reveals it. God is not trying to keep it secret. He desires to make it known. Jesus, who is in heaven, sends His Spirit to deliver his mystery to the church. The Spirit can be everywhere at once, whereas Jesus, having taken on our human body and nature, cannot.

Blessings!

--Ya'nar :Princess:

what does it mean to be revealed by the Spirit then? like visions? would prophecy be a different revelation than "by the Spirit"?

[Ya'nar#1]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

:doh:

yep, you are right. i meant Ephesians 3.



what does it mean to be revealed by the Spirit then? like visions? would prophecy be a different revelation than "by the Spirit"?


It's my understanding messages from God can come in several ways. In Daniel's case they came in visions. In Ellen White's case they came in both dreams and visions. But what it means is, that God takes over your mind. Your own thoughts and surroundings disappear and are replaced by the "pictures" God reveals to you.

This was how it was in my own personal case. For thirty years I had an almost disabling fear of Father God. It was a childhood thing. But God sent me a very explicit dream one night, taking this fear away. He opened heaven and His throne up to my mind. Nothing vague, but crystal clear. And even though I was asleep, I knew instantly this wasn't me--it wasn't my doing. It was incredible! There was Father God sitting on His throne. The dream was palpable, it was so real. And the pure love that eminated from Him moved through me like a force I can scarcely discribe to you! I saw then that God loves us in the exact same way that Jesus loves us. There really is no difference.

There were other things about heaven and creation He also revealed to me--but this was His main message.

God Bless, GIT!

--Ya'nar :Princess:

[42ndgen]

Hi Everyone:

I wanted to say a few things concerning the original question that was asked so for a reminder here the original question.

Ephesians 3
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

in verse 5, who are the "holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" Paul is talking about?

In order to answer that question we must first find out how the scripture uses the term apostle. According to the New testament there are at least twenty men called apostles in the scripture.

1. Simon called Peter
2. Andrew
3. James son of Zebedee
4. John son of Zebedee
5. Philip
6. Bartholomew
7. Thomas
8. Matthew
9. James son of Alphaeus
10. Lebbaeus surname Thaddaeus
11. Simon the Canaanite
12. Judas Iscariot
These twelve are Listed in Matthew 10:2-3
13 Matthias acts 1:26
14. Barnabas Acts14:14
15. Paul Acts 14:14
16. Andronicus Rom 16:7
17. Junia Rom 16:7
18. Silvanus IThess 1:1; 2:1,6
19. Timothy IThess 1:1; 2:1,6

The word for apostle in the greek is defined in the Strong's as:
G652 apostolos ap-os'-tol-os
From G649; a delegate; specifically an ambassador of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ (“apostle”), (with miraculous powers): - apostle, messenger, he that is sent.

And this word is also translated as messenger for the following two apostles.

20. Epaphroditus Phil 2:25
21. Titus 2Co 8:23

But the Greatest Apostle is none other than Jesus Christ Himself
22. Jesus Christ

Heb 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

The word apostle simplly has been used to mean a sent one by God to accomplish a particular task or service. It refers first and formost to Jesus then to the 12 disciples than to all that are sent. Now the term can apply to anyone that is sent by God to accomplish a specific and particualr task. It can apply to you and me if we are sent by God. We are all ment to be ambassadors of Christ.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

To be continued:

Grace and Peace Patrick

[42ndgen]

Hi everyone:

Last time I posted I just barely touched on the word apostle and shown a little concerning who it can apply to. That does not mean that it can apply to those that have decided to go do something in the name of God who were not truly being sent by God. We are not talking about children who think that they can go wherever they want whenever they decide to go. No We are talking about those who have commited their lives to the Lord so much that they only go where He sends them and only when He sends them. That is a true apostle. They are overcomers in the Lord.

All overcomers have a three fold aspect in their lives that allow them to overcome; and to have the ability to be overcomers...

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

1. blood of the Lamb
2. word of testimony
3. Loved not their lives even unto death.

The word of their testimony would be the same as having the testimony of Jesus Christ Rev 12:17. Now the testimony of Jesus is nothing less than being the Spirit of Prophecy Rev 19:10.

Jesus In His own ministry was an apostle a prophet an evangelist, a pastor and a teacher. All of the five fold ministries were fulfilled in His ministry. And if we allow Him to fully live in us we can walk as circumstances require in each of the fivefold ministries as He did.

A prophet tells people what the Lord has planned to do in the future near or far. Old testament prophets had the spirit of Christ in themselves but did not speak and minister to themselves but they spoke to us, and ministered to us.

1Pe 1:10-12 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: (11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Many times the old testament prophets spoke of things that they did not fully understand. But they spoke what the Lord wanted them to deliver anyway. God still has prophets and will still use prophets, so that we may all come unto a perfect man and unto the fulness of Christ he wants to impart in to each of our lives.

Now without the Spirit of God in us we will never be able to understand what the Lord is trying to say. It is completely impossible for our natural minds to grasp the things of the spirit.

1Co 2:9-15 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. (10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. (11) For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. (12) Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (13) Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Now in the original post the phrase in the spirit was brought up. And the only way to be in the spirit is to know that God is in us.

Rom 8:8-9 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (9) But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

We can know He is in us right now and in fact the scripture demands that we should be aware of Him in us right now or we are rebrobate in our walk with Him.

2Co 13:5-7 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (6) But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates. (7) Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.


We must know He is in us, or we will not understand what He wants for us in our lives.

Grace and peace patrick

[Emo]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Ephesians 3
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles--2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief. 4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;

in verse 5, who are the "holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit" Paul is talking about?


These verses reveal the real mystery of God's grace & truly show the great teaching ministry of the Spirit. They may pertain to all of the apostles & prophets, since it seems that they were revealed these things directly & purposefully from God through the Spirit. With that said, Paul was solely given the current Gospel of Grace message which he taught to others like Timothy & Silvanus.