what is Open Theism

[The Edge]

I'm asking this because I honestly don't know...

What exactly is open theism? What do open theists teach? How does it relate to calvinism or arminianism?

In fact, to make answering this post simple, why doesn't someone with good theological knowledge post simple but detailed definition of each of the three terms. That would help me out a bit in future discussion.

[Lighthouse]

Do you fall into any of these categories?

Calvinists preach that God has completely predestined everything, even who will and who will not choose Him.

Arminianists preach that God did not predestine all things, but knows everything that will happen, including who will...

Open Theists preach that the future has not happened and therefore does not exist. And since it doesn't exist God does not know it. Not only that, but He can't know it, because it doesn't exist.

If you need any further clarification do not hesitate to ask.

[God_Is_Truth]

this is from Greg Boyd's website, a prominent open theist.

"Open view theists believe that the future exists partly as actualities (future events which God sovereignly determines to bring about) and partly as possibilities (aspects of the future which God sovereignly allows his creatures to bring about)."

http://www.gregboyd.org/gbfront/index.asp?PageID=257

to state what Greg said in another way (these are my own words, not from the web site). open theism essentially states that the future is open as opposed to settled. in a settled future, everything that will ever happen (10 years from now, 100 years etc.) has already been decided and determined. it also cannot be changed, thus it is settled. open theism denies this and says that only parts of it are settled (like the 2nd coming, judgement day etc.) and the rest of it is open and unsettled (like what i eat for breakfast, what toothpaste i use to brush my teeth with etc.).

many people think open theism denies God's foreknowlege or his sovereignty or his omnipotence. none of these are accurate as the open view (aka open theism) affirms all of these. open theism is about the nature of the future, not God's attributes.

[The Edge]

interesting. I'm probably something in between all three. Calvinism, in its hardcore form, is a bit too fatalistic. However, I believe God is sovereign and chose all who will believe, however it says to choose Christ, and he will not turn away anybody who comes to him. My brother said that means it's our choice. Seemingly, yes to linear individuals it would seem as though we are making a choice, but if someone chooses Christ, it's because God drew them first, whether they realize it or not. Therefore, to us it looks like that person chose to be saved, but God really chose them. So in that sense I believe in Predestination, but I also believe the future is known to God. Whether it's "written" by him beforehand, that I cannot say. That stuff gets a little heavy and I'm not qualified to discuss....not really important though; you won't go to heaven or hell based on whether you believe open theism, arminianism, or calvinism. In fact, I don't like to put a label on because I can just say "I believe the Bible" when asked what I believe about salvation. But I did start this thread because I am interested in learning about the labels.

[God_Is_Truth]

you're definately not an open theist at present then. is there a particular reason you believe the things you do? have you looked at scripture and come to that conclusion? or is it more that it's what you were taught growing up perhaps? just curious.

[billwald]

OT is the latest iteration of process theology.

Why would God want to know the future?

[Turbo]

Originally posted by billwald

OT is the latest iteration of process theology. :nono:

[Sold Out]

So let me be sure what open theism is....the future (other than what has been prophesied and revealed in scripture) is not predetermined?

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out

So let me be sure what open theism is....the future (other than what has been prophesied and revealed in scripture) is not predetermined?

Actually in the Open View, prophecy is not prewritten history. In accordance with Jer. 18. God can and will change His mind if the circumstances justly warrant such a change.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Sold Out]

Ok, thanks

[Clete]

Originally posted by october

interesting. I'm probably something in between all three.
The future is either exhaustively settled or it is not. No inbetween allowed. Sorry! ;)

Calvinism, in its hardcore form, is a bit too fatalistic.
In ANY form (including Arminianism) if you ask me!

However, I believe God is sovereign and chose all who will believe, however it says to choose Christ, and he will not turn away anybody who comes to him. My brother said that means it's our choice.
You should listen to your brother. He's got it right.

Seemingly, yes to linear individuals it would seem as though we are making a choice, but if someone chooses Christ, it's because God drew them first, whether they realize it or not.
First of all God draws ALL men, some choose to respond to Him other reject Him. It's really no more complicated than that.
In regards to "linear individuals", what other kind are there?

Therefore, to us it looks like that person chose to be saved, but God really chose them. So in that sense I believe in Predestination, but I also believe the future is known to God. Whether it's "written" by him beforehand, that I cannot say.
Your belief is unbiblical. Corporate predestination is talked about in Scritpure but not individual. We who are in Christ are predestined to be glorified in Him but I personally was not predestined to become a member of the Body of Christ, I chose that myself.

That stuff gets a little heavy and I'm not qualified to discuss....not really important though; you won't go to heaven or hell based on whether you believe open theism, arminianism, or calvinism.
Perhaps, but there are many who have and will go to Hell because of the lunatic teachings of some who call themselves Christians. Einstein for example, rejected Christianity because of the false teaching that God simply made up the laws of physics with no real logic behind them, they simple were the way He wanted them to be; He made them arbitrarily. Einstein, knowing something about how the universe works, knew that this could not be the case and so used that as his excuse for rejecting God. Will the Christians who taught that peice of incorect theology go to Hell? No, but Einstien did. Our theology matters is the point; even points that seem like side issues can have a huge impact on those around us.

In fact, I don't like to put a label on because I can just say "I believe the Bible" when asked what I believe about salvation. But I did start this thread because I am interested in learning about the labels.
I recommend that you find a label and pin it proudly on your chest and get off the proverbial theological fence. The only time it is acceptable, in my view, to refuse a label is when one knows that their level of ignorance denies them the ability to choose one. It appears that you might be in that category for now. If so, you've found the right place to rid yourself of the particular handicap. Remember, he who stands for nothing will fall for anything. Besides, if you aren't confident in your own ability to determine the truth, no one will care about what you have to say. Labels are what make leaders, it is the cattle who like to melt into the crowd. Be right and risk the consequences!

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Excellent question and a terrific start to a new thread, by the way! :thumb:

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Sold Out

So let me be sure what open theism is....the future (other than what has been prophesied and revealed in scripture) is not predetermined?

correct.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by october

interesting. I'm probably something in between all three. Calvinism, in its hardcore form, is a bit too fatalistic. However, I believe God is sovereign and chose all who will believe, however it says to choose Christ, and he will not turn away anybody who comes to him. My brother said that means it's our choice. Seemingly, yes to linear individuals it would seem as though we are making a choice, but if someone chooses Christ, it's because God drew them first, whether they realize it or not. Therefore, to us it looks like that person chose to be saved, but God really chose them.
God said that He would draw all men unto Him, but not all get saved. So, unless you believe God to be a liar, it is our choice.

So in that sense I believe in Predestination, but I also believe the future is known to God. Whether it's "written" by him beforehand, that I cannot say. That stuff gets a little heavy and I'm not qualified to discuss....not really important though; you won't go to heaven or hell based on whether you believe open theism, arminianism, or calvinism. In fact, I don't like to put a label on because I can just say "I believe the Bible" when asked what I believe about salvation. But I did start this thread because I am interested in learning about the labels.
If God exhaustively knows the future, whether "written" or merely known, why would He change His mind?

[The Edge]

I don't know if God changes his mind or not. I do believe prophesy is prophesy.

Clete,
If we are able to truely choose to be saved, doesn't that take some glory away from God? It says we are saved by grace through faith, this not of yourselves, lest anyone can boast. Eph 2:8. This means that if we choose to be saved and then repent and are saved, we did something (a work) and have grounds to boast. What do you think there?

It's a hard thing to figure out. In some places it says we are predestined to be saved (but you say not individual predestination) and in other places we are clearly told to choose, to come to Christ. However, in Psalms and other places it says everyone is wicked and cannot do enough on their own to please God enough to get to go to heaven. Seemingly contradictory, but I know it isn't. But I don't know if my brother is 100% right about choice. We can't choose God unless the Father draws us, and the Father does not draw everyone that way.

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by october

I don't know if God changes his mind or not. I do believe prophesy is prophesy.

Clete,
If we are able to truely choose to be saved, doesn't that take some glory away from God? It says we are saved by grace through faith, this not of yourselves, lest anyone can boast. Eph 2:8. This means that if we choose to be saved and then repent and are saved, we did something (a work) and have grounds to boast. What do you think there?

It's a hard thing to figure out. In some places it says we are predestined to be saved (but you say not individual predestination) and in other places we are clearly told to choose, to come to Christ. However, in Psalms and other places it says everyone is wicked and cannot do enough on their own to please God enough to get to go to heaven. Seemingly contradictory, but I know it isn't. But I don't know if my brother is 100% right about choice. We can't choose God unless the Father draws us, and the Father does not draw everyone that way.
Us being wicked, and not being able to do enough to please God is why we can not save ourselves. This does not mean we can not choose to accept God's grace, which is given despite our inability to please Him unto salvation. And God said He would draw all men. He is not a liar.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by october

I don't know if God changes his mind or not. I do believe prophesy is prophesy.

and what is "prophecy"? how do you define "prophecy"?


Clete,
If we are able to truely choose to be saved, doesn't that take some glory away from God? It says we are saved by grace through faith, this not of yourselves, lest anyone can boast. Eph 2:8. This means that if we choose to be saved and then repent and are saved, we did something (a work) and have grounds to boast. What do you think there?

a common misconception. however, this becomes irrelevant when we consider what faith is. faith in Christ, by definition, cannot be a work. why may you ask? because of the nature of it. faith by nature is other centered. to put your faith (trust, hope) in Jesus's work on the cross, is not a work of yourself, but a denial of your own works. it's throwing every work you could ever do out the window and looking to the work of God. that's why the work of God is to "believe on the one whom He has sent".

since faith is a denial of every work of your own, it makes no sense to call it a "work". it is the "anti-work". thus, since it is not a work, we cannot boast in it. all we can boast in is the cross, that Jesus saved us. well, all who believe can boast of that, and those who don't believe can only not boast because they reject that which is freely offered.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by billwald

OT is the latest iteration of process theology.

Why would God want to know the future?

There are more differences than similarities between Process theology and Open Theism.

[The Edge]

This stuff is getting over my head.

[SOTK]

:chuckle:

[godrulz]

Originally posted by october

This stuff is getting over my head.

Play around www.gregboyd.org

or Read "God of the Possible: A biblical introduction to the Open view of God" Baker

He makes the concepts simple and systematic.

[Clete]

Originally posted by october

I don't know if God changes his mind or not. I do believe prophesy is prophesy.

Clete,
If we are able to truely choose to be saved, doesn't that take some glory away from God? It says we are saved by grace through faith, this not of yourselves, lest anyone can boast. Eph 2:8. This means that if we choose to be saved and then repent and are saved, we did something (a work) and have grounds to boast. What do you think there?

It's a hard thing to figure out. In some places it says we are predestined to be saved (but you say not individual predestination) and in other places we are clearly told to choose, to come to Christ. However, in Psalms and other places it says everyone is wicked and cannot do enough on their own to please God enough to get to go to heaven. Seemingly contradictory, but I know it isn't. But I don't know if my brother is 100% right about choice. We can't choose God unless the Father draws us, and the Father does not draw everyone that way.

October,

I'm sorry! I totally missed this post! I wasn't ignoring you.
Fortunately GIT stepped in and answered your question. He nailed the answer perfectly. Thanks GIT!

As to our free will taking away God's glory, I would respond two ways.
First, would you say it takes away something from the life guard because you grabbed hold of the life preserver he threw to you when you were drowning?

Second, if we do not choose and God is in complete control of what we do and don't do, believe and don't believe, etc. Where is the glory in His having saved us? What we were saved from if He had it all predestined from "the beginning of time". It wouldn't even be accurate to call it a salvation, just a fulfillment of our destiny.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[geralduk]

Prophesy is HISTORY written in advance.

in Christ
gerald uk

[godrulz]

Originally posted by geralduk

Prophesy is HISTORY written in advance.

in Christ
gerald uk

Many, but not all, prophecies are conditional (e.g. Jonah). They are also forthtelling and not always foretelling.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by geralduk

Prophesy is HISTORY written in advance. No it isn't. Jonah delivered a prophecy from God to Nineveh that it would be destroyed in forty days. Forty days later, Nineveh was not destroyed. So obviously that prophecy was not pre-written history.

To find out why, read the book of Jonah and chapter 18 of Jeremiah.

[Sealeaf]

Seems to me that the strongest arguement for open theology is that it does less violence to the nature of God than does the closed view.

Closed view presents us with a God who is cruel, unjust and powerless. He is in complete control of everything we do but blames us for what we do. Those whom He has directed to violate commandments will go to hell for having done what He forced them to do. Without freewill there can be no sin.

In an effort to maximize the power of God this view actually limits His power since it claims that the future is fixed and therefore not even God can change it. In taking away man's free will it also eliminates God's.

[BChristianK]

Originally posted by godrulz

There are more differences than similarities between Process theology and Open Theism.

Although Open theism is more neo-molinistic than Process theology which has some serious flaws.

[Clete]

Originally posted by BChristianK

Although Open theism is more neo-molinistic than Process theology which has some serious flaws.

Like what?

It is sort of easy to make unsubstantiated associations with things that sound important because of the use of terms that most people have never heard before, but it's quite another thing to make substantive arguments about specific beliefs.

What exactly about Molinism is similar to Open Theism and why do you see it as problematic for the Open View?
It will be interesting to see if conclusions drawn by the Open View that are similar to those drawn by Molinism are come to by the same reasoning. If they are not then the comparison between the two systems can hardly be considered valid.

Let me give an example of what sort of thing I'm talking about...
I do not believe that one can lose their salvation and so do Calvinists, but I come to that conclusion in an totally different manner than do Calvinist and so to equate me with a Calvinist would be erroneous in the extreme. You simply don't get further from being a Calvinist that I am and still remain a Christian. I'm interested to know whether your association is any more valid and if so why.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[godrulz]

Dr. Gregory Boyd is a prominent Open Theist. He sees Molinism as problematic, but considers himself neo-Molinist.

Clark Pinnock is another prominent Open Theist. He recognizes some similarities with Open Theism and Process Theology, while rejecting much of Process Thought.

I do not think BCK is minimizing the differences in various views. He probably is recognizing some common beliefs held by views without tarring everyone with the same brush.

Reading a divergent source of books on Open Theism will help us to not stereotype nor jump to conclusions.