Universalism/Reconciliation view on....

[kerryjean]

Universalism/Reconciliation view on.........Blood Sacrifice of the Innocent. The wages of sin is death.

I have been doing alot of research on Universalism for couple of months now. Even though I do my best to narrow my online search, I get sites that have nothing to do with Universalism. I understand...."God desires none perish" and "In the end All will be reconciled to God".

To let you know upfront: My questions derive from my Catholic backgound.

In my research on Universalism, It appears to me (my perception), there are two ways to be reconciled to God.

1). The believer does not pay the price for their own sins, Christ payed the price for them, and they are reconciled to God.

2). The nonbeliever will pay the price for their own sins (punished/purged) and then reconciled to God.

From the Reconciliation view, why does God demand the Blood Sacrifice of the Innocent Christ before He will forgive the guilty? Simply to spare the believer from punishment? That's how it appears to me. That God would demand the Blood Sacrifice of the Innocent Christ before He can forgive the guilty doesn't make sense to me. I see no justice in it. I didn't see the justice in it as a child.... during every Mass, staring at the Huge Cross with Jesus hanging on it.....Blood coming out of his hands and feet....knowing that I deserved punishment and death.

It is said....that we humans, being the depraved, hopeless, blemmished sinners that we are, cannot "pay the price" for our own sins. God cannot forgive without the Blood Sacrifice of the Innocent - Christ. We can be as sorry as we can be......God cannot forgive without the Blood Sacrifice of the Innocent Christ. God will forgive those who believe. God will not forgive those who don't believe.

Jesus forgave sins throughout his ministry, without the blood sacrifice. Never did Jesus say "I will forgive you after you sacrifice a goat or a lamb or a bullock or turtle doves or....fine flour." Sacrifice hadn't been abolished. Why can't God forgive sins without the Blood Sacrifice of the innocent Christ? I know what the Traditional view answer is, I would like to know the Universalism view answer.

The wages of sin is death. What are we talking about here? Physical death? Spiritual Death? Both? Christ paid the price of sin, yet everyone, believer and nonbeliever alike, will pay the price of death (physical). The nonbeliever is said to be spiritually dead, separated from God already. Christ payed the price for the sins of the world. The nonbeliever will be punished/purged of their sins. How many times must the price of sin be paid? Many times it seems.

1 Corinthians 15:22 "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive".

"For as in Adam all die,".....universally.....All.........nobody was left out. And nobody (after Adam and Eve) had a choice in the matter.

"so in Christ all are made alive".......why not universally.....All.....nobody left out?

It doesn't make sense that, All are automatically in Adam (no choice) All die (physically - no choice), yet only those who believe in Christ (choice) Live. Pretty unbalanced IMO. The Universilism view.......In the end All are reconciled to God.........God is All in All. God brings everything into balance.

Peace

kerryjean

[logos_x]

kerryjean -

To begine I need to require you to step out of the confines of your Catholic knowlege. In the following my focus will be to give you a fresh perspective concerning Christ's death on the cross....

First, you need to gain a new knowledge about Covenants.


"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul" (Leviticus 17:11).



A blood covenant demands unwavering loyalty. To waiver is to die. That is one reason I believe that many more civilized Western minded thinkers have a difficult time with their relationship with God. They don't understand the absoluteness of the relationship. Many Eastern thinking Christians don't have access to good solid Bible teaching, but when they find out about the blood, they latch on to the idea with all they have got.

One who breaks the covenant does it to his/her own death.

Jeremiah 34: 17-20 says: "Therefore thus says the LORD: 'You have not obeyed Me in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother and every one to his neighbor. Behold, I proclaim liberty to you,' says the LORD--'to the sword, to pestilence, and to famine! And I will deliver you to trouble among all the kingdoms of the earth. 'And I will give the men who have transgressed My covenant, who have not performed the words of the covenant which they made before Me, when they cut the calf in two and passed between the parts of it; 'the princes of Judah, the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, the priests, and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf-- 'I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life. Their dead bodies shall be for meat for the birds of the heaven and the beasts of the earth."

So what happens when you do not keep the covenant perfectly?

Hold that thought...

______________________________________

Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, "Do not be afraid, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great."
Gen 15:2 But Abram said, "O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, "You have given me no offspring, and so a slave born in my house is to be my heir."
Gen 15:4 But the word of the Lord came to him, "This man shall not be your heir; no one but your very own issue shall be your heir."
Gen 15:5 He brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven and count the stars, if you are able to count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the Lord; and the Lord reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Gen 15:7 Then he said to him, "I am the Lord who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess."
Gen 15:8 But he said, "O Lord God, how am I to know that I shall possess it?"

Gen 15:9 He (God) said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 He brought him all these and cut them in two, laying each half over against the other; but he did not cut the birds in two.
Gen 15:11 And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
Gen 15:12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a deep and terrifying darkness descended upon him.
Gen 15:13 Then the Lord said to Abram, "Know this for certain, that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs, and shall be slaves there, and they shall be oppressed for four hundred years;
Gen 15:14 but I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions.
Gen 15:15 As for yourself, you shall go to your ancestors in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age.
Gen 15:16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."
Gen 15:17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, [i]a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.

Gen 15:18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,
Gen 15:19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,
Gen 15:21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."


Abram did not walk the bloody ditch, but he saw two forms of Deity in the covenant ditch. I believe that one was Jesus and the other was the Father, or perhaps the Holy Spirit. Jesus took the death of you, the covenant breaker! Then He was raised from the dead .

God cannot lie!

He swore to death that He would keep that covenant, knowing that Abram and you and I would not keep it.

Thus, He died for everyone who is a covenant breaker!

_______________________________________


Galatians 3:13,14 says, "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Also, in Hebrews:

"Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us" (Hebrews 6:17,18).

And in Titus:

"In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began" (Titus 1:2).

Hold that thought....

________________________________________

Western thinking compared to Eastern, Oriental, Hebrew thinking.

The east, including Israel, tends toward expressing ideas in symbols.
The west leans toward stating conclusions based on facts.
Thus, the east tends to be more intuitive and mystical and the west more cognitive and rational. These are only generalizations, with individual differences apparent in each culture. What that means is that we cannot always take a Bible passage written for understanding by the Hebrew people and get an accurate meaning of it using only our Western way of rational thinking.

For clarity, it is essential to know what the cultural implications were when the message was first written, and how the original recipients would have viewed it.



David Livingstone, historically one of the great missionaries of modern times, in the middle 1800s determined to reach the Africans with the Gospel. On one of his efforts to go into the interior, he was advised that the only way would be to make a covenant with one of the chiefs. The deal was that the chief would give Livingstone his old staff with wire wrapped all around it in trade for Livingstone's goat. Livingstone needed the goat for milk, to settle his ulcers, but his people convinced him to make the trade.
They cut the covenant with blood. As David Livingstone then approached each interior tribe he would hold up the staff, and the entire tribe would bow and worship, knowing that Livingstone was in covenant with the strongest chief in the area.
They understood that looking at Livingstone was the same as looking at the chief with whom he had cut covenant.


Malcolm Smith tells the story of a journey into an African village. On the way he stopped at a bank to exchange funds.
The teller put her fingers over the counter waiting for Mr. Smith to reciprocate. After asking his guides, he discovered that this represented two people exchanging blood at the tips of their fingers to insure that no dishonesty would take place in the transaction.

As Mr. Smith, the next day, met the village chief, a very primitive scarcely clad man, he told the chief that God had sent him with a message for his village. When the chief asked about the message, Mr. Smith put out his fingers in the blood covenant sign. The chief was totally overwhelmed and bowed down and accepted Jesus.

He could barely conceive that the Creator would cut a blood covenant with him. The entire village was transformed.



Pastor Pacius Gueston in Haiti, tells many stories about his culture's view of blood and covenants. First, Haiti was given to Satan by the blood of a pig ritual over 200 years ago. Voodoo and the related religions all understand the value of blood in spiritual matters.
He tells the story of a Voodoo priest who came to him in order to better understand Pacius' religion. Pacius had been casting out demons, and this Voodoo priest wanted to know where the power came from.
The priest told Pacius that his best friend had died recently and that even the blood of a chicken could not heal him. Pacius began to tell this man about the blood of Jesus.
He believed immediatly and is now serving in the church.

_______________________________________

What is a friend?

The word "friend" in the Oriental/Hebrew culture means a blood covenant partner.



"A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother" (Proverbs 18:24, KJV).



Many cultures that still appreciate blood covenants have a saying, "Blood is thicker than water." The water they refer to is the birth water of the mother, indicating that blood covenant friends are more closely related than children of the same mother. Another way they say it is, "Blood is thicker than milk."

" Friend " is covenant language. It means the most intimate, loyal and strongest interunion between two beings.

"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you" (John 15:15, KJV).

Shaking hands is a blood covenant gesture. Originally blood was passed between the two parties in the grasp, each guaranteeing that the other would not hurt the other.


The word remembrance is a very powerful word.

"And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me'" (Luke 22:19).

Vines Complete Expository Dictionary defines the word as follows:
"it denotes an unassisted recalling, a remembrance prompted by another, however in classical Greek the words are easily interchangeable. This denotes His presence, not in memory of, but in affectionate calling of the Person Himself to mind; an awakening of the mind to the sacrifices under the Law [the blood]."


Malcolm Smith in his book, "The Blood Covenant", makes the following statements about the word remember.

"The word "remember," in covenant language, means to take appropriate and obligatory action. The covenant meal
(communion) punctuates our lives with all He has done and all that we must now do in the power of that finished work. It must never be thought of as an attempt to imagine the sufferings of Jesus and work up emotional sadness. Revelation 4 and 5 are the mentality of a service when the triumphant Lamb is covenantally remembered. Because of the nature of the remembering, it is a time to deal with anything in our lives and relationships that contradict the covenant we are celebrating."

_____________________________________________

A blood covenant defined.

"A rite by which two persons absorb each the other's blood, either by drinking or by transfusion to the veins, whereby they become bound to each other in even a closer connection than that of brotherhood. It prevails in many countries, civilized and uncivilized, and may be traced back to extreme antiquity. It existed in the rites and literature of the ancient Egyptians, and is frequently alluded to in the Bible.
Dr. H. Clay Trumbull, who has made a scientific examination of the subject, holds that its origin is in the universally dominative primitive convictions that the blood is the life; that the heart, as the blood-fountain, is the very soul of every personality; that blood-transfer is soul-transfer; that blood-sharing, human or divine-human, secures an interunion of natures; and that a union of the human nature with the divine is the highest ultimate attainment reached out after by the most primitive as well as by the most enlightened mind of humanity.
With savage and barbarous peoples the rite lies at the foundations of cannibalism; it is the motive of sacrifices, in which the animal is offered to the god as a substitute for the human blood. In one form the drops of blood were put in wine or other draughts and drunken; then the wine was drunken without the actual presence of the blood, whence we have the use of wine in pledges of friendship and in marriage.
Among the Jews it is symbolized in circumcision; among Christians, in the use of wine in the sacrament."

[logos_x]

The following is a rather long bit of reading, but it is necessary that you read it for you to understand anything else I might say further on.

I am providing a link here that might be the most important thing you will ever learn!

Don't skip over it, please read it fully. It is extremely important that you do.

The Centrality of Covenant (http://www.hccentral.com/eller9/chap3.html)

(This page is the only one on the site necessary to read)

[Redfin]

I'm interested in seeing where all of this is going. :think:

I posted some thoughts similar to the first chart in the article you shared in Theory of Shrinking Covenants (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17307).
It got shot down pretty fast. :rolleyes:

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Redfin

I'm interested in seeing where all of this is going. :think:

I posted some thoughts similar to the first chart in the article you shared in Theory of Shrinking Covenants (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17307).
It got shot down pretty fast. :rolleyes:

:think:

I had not noticed your thread Redfin.
At any rate, it didn't seem to get "shot down" but just stopped altogether. They either assumed you meant something you didn't mean...judging by the title of your thread, no doubt...or you stopped everyone in their tracks..or they simply didn't even read it.(I'm guilty of the last one)

Anyway....yeah...we'll see where this one goes.

[kerryjean]

Hi logos_x,

To begine I need to require you to step out of the confines of your Catholic knowlege.

I've been stepping out of the confines of my Catholic knowledge going on two years now. It isn't easy to do.

The following is a rather long bit of reading, but it is necessary that you read it for you to understand anything else I might say further on.

I am providing a link here that might be the most important thing you will ever learn!

Don't skip over it, please read it fully. It is extremely important that you do.

The Centrality of

I will respond after I read it fully.

Peace

kerryjean

[logos_x]

To futher help out...here is a program that will let your computer read to you, if you don't already have that capability:

ReadPlease (http://www.readplease.com/english/readplease.php)
available in both a free version and a plus version.

[logos_x]

Originally posted by kerryjean

Hi logos_x,

I've been stepping out of the confines of my Catholic knowledge going on two years now. It isn't easy to do.

Of that I have no doubt.

I will respond after I read it fully.

Peace

kerryjean

Take all the time you need.

[logos_x]

David, Jonathan, and the New Covenant

Blood covenants are serious business. The modern western world understands little about blood covenants. The blood covenant is binding. It is the basis of the very relationship we have with God. If we are totally grounded in the blood covenant, we can withstand anything.

The nation of Israel wanted to be like other nations. They wanted a physical King they could see and follow. They wanted something more tangible than an invisible God. God comforted Samuel, and told him the people where rejecting Him, not Samuel. The people chose a King named Saul. This was the people vote. God out, Saul in. God chooses a King named David, the shepherd boy. We now have the foundation for a great story. Two different families chosen to be the Kingly line! Power struggle, intrigue, drama, human emotion, it's all there.

But this is a story about a blood covenant from which we may all gain strength and great comfort. It is a story about Father's love for us, and the positive future we have regardless how dark the present is.

David loves God. Jonathan is from the family of Saul, but thinks so differently from the rest of the family. He loves God in a similar way to David. David and Jonathan make a covenant (1 Sam. 18:1-4). There is a oneness between them that is a taste of the Kingdom of God. Perhaps they cut their right arms and brought the wounds together and let the blood mingle. It is a covenant of deep love between them.

Many events unfold and there is a time when Saul is out to kill David. Jonathan comes to David and expands the covenant to include their future generations (1 Sam. 20:14-15). The blood covenant between David and Jonathan will endure all the horror to come. Later in 1 Samuel 23:16-17, Jonathan comes a third time to David and carries out a gesture that is a magnificent example to us all. He comes before his beloved friend, David, and states clearly that David will be King, and Jonathan will be David's prince. Jonathan is next in line in the family of Saul to be King over Israel! But Jonathan is in harmony with God, and humbles himself before David. The covenant between them is a beautiful thing.

For Saul and Jonathan the end comes in a war with the Philistines. David becomes King proper, and rules the nation.

During the final moments of Saul's kingdom, the family is fleeing and the nurse maid running with Jonathan's son, Mephibosheth, stumbles and drops him.

He is crippled in both legs from a very early age.
Lame for most of his life.

Time passes. Mephibosheth is fed endless lies about David. With his grandfather Saul died, and his father, Jonathan dead, Mephibosheth is heir to the throne of Israel from the family viewpoint. Mephibosheth is fed all kinds of terrible lies of David stealing the throne and other made up evils. Mephibosheth lives on the edge of David's Kingdom, probably carrying out acts of destruction against the Kingdom.

A day comes when David desires to express his covenant love to any living descendants of his good friend, Jonathan. He finds out where Mephibosheth is dwelling and heads out to meet him. Picture the scene, with David and his men coming across the landscape on their horses, and Mephibosheth watching them approach. In Mephibosheth's mind he must be considering it his last fifteen minutes on earth. All he knows about David are the lies. He is expecting David to wipe out the last of Saul's family. In the next ten minutes David's sword will be thrust through Mephibosheth's vitals.

Consider the shock of Mephibosheth as David explains he has kept all the land, flocks, herds, and money of Saul and Jonathan for this very moment when he could pass it on to Mephibosheth! Not only that, but Mephibosheth is invited to King David's table to dine with him for the rest of his life! What? Why?

Blood covenant. Perhaps David explained to a dumbfounded Mephibosheth the terms of the covenant made between David and Jonathan before Mephibosheth was even conceived. David may have explained the fact there was nothing Mephibosheth could do. He couldn't earn it, pay for it, qualify for it. Nothing at all, but simply say, thank you, Lord. The blood covenant was intact. It's terms and conditions were valid and he could not pay or earn the reward.

Mephibosheth now had a choice! Reject the incredible love of the blood covenant, take his chances being a troublemaker in David's kingdom, and end up dead, or, accept the love in the blood covenant and allow it to pour into his heart and change him from the inside out.

It was all a bit much for Mephibosheth, and he openly considerered himself a dog.

It is a wonderful truth what covenant love can do. Mephibosheth, the terrorist, allows the covenant love in David's heart to pour into his, and in a very real sense Mephibosheth enters into the very spirit of his father, Jonathan. He takes on a love for David like Jonathan had. It is a miracle. Mephibosheth's mind and heart change. The spirit of Jonathan starts to lead his son Mephibosheth, and he begins to love David. Mephibosheth in Jonathan and Jonathan in Mephibosheth.

See the parallells?

You in Jesus, and Jesus in you. There is nothing we can do. The blood covenant was made through the Lord Jesus long before we were conceived in our mother's womb, and we are the inheritors. Any gospel that demanded from you and held up expectations to you that you were never able to reach - that was another gospel, not The Gospel.

Please do yourself a favor. Relax. Forgive those who hurt you. Stop worrying about not living up to your calling. Relax. There is nothing you can do to win back people or God. God has never left you. He may be taking you out into the desert right now, and you may be there a reasonably long time. Relax, don't worry or fret. He made a blood covenant with you before the foundation of the world and long before you were born, and He will live up to it. Everything painful that might be happening to you right now is for your good in the long run. Just relax and leave it to Him. Focus on Jesus and enjoy his fellowship. Eat at the King's table, and relax.

[kerryjean]

If you keep posting so much information, it will be June before I'm ready to reply!

'ang on a minute!

Peace

kerryjean

[logos_x]

:chuckle:

[PureX]

I believe that the whole idea of Jesus' death being a blood sacrifice for God's forgiveness is just a fiction invented by religion and that was "interpreted" into the bible over time. I don't believe that God ever demanded any such sacrifice. Jesus died because men killed him. Men killed him because they were not able to understand his message of forgiveness and salvation, or because they just didn't want to hear it. And we're still killing Christ in our hearts, today, for those same reasons.

"Holy bribery" had nothing to do with it.

[Redfin]

Here's (http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/univart.html) a bit more to entertain yourself with as well. :think:

Your Friend,
Redfin

[logos_x]

What Happens to One Happens to All (http://www.savior-of-all.com/adam.html)

[kerryjean]

Hi logos_x,


First, you need to gain a new knowledge about Covenants.

I understand covenants logos_x. There's nothing new here.



quote:

"For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul" (Leviticus 17:11).


God commanded the Israelites Do Not drink the blood, because "the life of the flesh is in the blood."

"If any man of the house of Israel or of the strangers that sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood; and I have given it for you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement, by reason of the life."

What about non-blood sacrifices that God also commanded the Israelites to make atonement?

A blood covenant demands unwavering loyalty. To waiver is to die. That is one reason I believe that many more civilized Western minded thinkers have a difficult time with their relationship with God. They don't understand the absoluteness of the relationship.


Maybe they don't understand their relationship with God, because no matter what their relationship with God is, they will die. Whether they waiver or not. There are many different relationships. None are permanant. The dad/daughter relationship changes when the daughter gets married and moves out of her dad's house. No longer is the daughter dependant on her dad. The husband/wife relationship changes once the children arrive. The mother/sons relationship changes once the sons get married and move out of my house. They no longer are dependant on me. The only constant is the love. Although love also has it's ups and downs. It's not hard to see why they wouldn't understand the absoluteness of the relationship. They've never experienced relationship as absolute.

I should step out of the confines of my Western minded thinking.

Absoluteness of the relationship? Does man's relationship with God change? Does God's relationship with man change? When man breaks a covenant doesn't the relationship change?

Many Eastern thinking Christians don't have access to good solid Bible teaching, but when they find out about the blood, they latch on to the idea with all they have got.

Not suprising. Blood covenants are something that the world understands. Blood covenants were not unique to the Hebrew people.


One who breaks the covenant does it to his/her own death.

Jeremiah 34: 17-20 says: "Therefore thus says the LORD: 'You have not obeyed Me in proclaiming liberty, every one to his brother and every one to his neighbor. Behold, I proclaim liberty to you,' says the LORD--'to the sword, to pestilence, and to famine! And I will deliver you to trouble among all the kingdoms of the earth. 'And I will give the men who have transgressed My covenant, who have not performed the words of the covenant which they made before Me, when they cut the calf in two and passed between the parts of it; 'the princes of Judah, the princes of Jerusalem, the eunuchs, the priests, and all the people of the land who passed between the parts of the calf-- 'I will give them into the hand of their enemies and into the hand of those who seek their life. Their dead bodies shall be for meat for the birds of the heaven and the beasts of the earth."

So what happens when you do not keep the covenant perfectly?

You die.

Hold that thought...

I will.


Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, "Do not be afraid, Abram, I am your shield; your reward shall be very great."
Gen 15:2 But Abram said, "O Lord God, what will you give me, for I continue childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
Gen 15:3 And Abram said, "You have given me no offspring, and so a slave born in my house is to be my heir."
Gen 15:4 But the word of the Lord came to him, "This man shall not be your heir; no one but your very own issue shall be your heir."
Gen 15:5 He brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven and count the stars, if you are able to count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
Gen 15:6 And he believed the Lord; and the Lord reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Gen 15:7 Then he said to him, "I am the Lord who brought you from Ur of the Chaldeans, to give you this land to possess."
Gen 15:8 But he said, "O Lord God, how am I to know that I shall possess it?"

Gen 15:9 He (God) said to him, "Bring me a heifer three years old, a female goat three years old, a ram three years old, a turtledove, and a young pigeon."
Gen 15:10 He brought him all these and cut them in two, laying each half over against the other; but he did not cut the birds in two.
Gen 15:11 And when birds of prey came down on the carcasses, Abram drove them away.
Gen 15:12 As the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram, and a deep and terrifying darkness descended upon him.
Gen 15:13 Then the Lord said to Abram, "Know this for certain, that your offspring shall be aliens in a land that is not theirs, and shall be slaves there, and they shall be oppressed for four hundred years;
Gen 15:14 but I will bring judgment on the nation that they serve, and afterward they shall come out with great possessions.
Gen 15:15 As for yourself, you shall go to your ancestors in peace; you shall be buried in a good old age.
Gen 15:16 And they shall come back here in the fourth generation; for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet complete."
Gen 15:17 When the sun had gone down and it was dark, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.

Gen 15:18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, "To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,
Gen 15:19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,
Gen 15:21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites."

Abram did not walk the bloody ditch, but he saw two forms of Deity in the covenant ditch. I believe that one was Jesus and the other was the Father, or perhaps the Holy Spirit. Jesus took the death of you, the covenant breaker! Then He was raised from the dead .

To be a covenant breaker, says to me, that there has to be an intent on the part of one of the parties of the covenant, to break the covenant. It is my contention that people, in general, do not set out to break the covenant, including the Blood Covenant. Breaking the covenant appears to be inevitable.

God cannot lie!

He swore to death that He would keep that covenant, knowing that Abram and you and I would not keep it.



Thus, He died for everyone who is a covenant breaker!


[I]Galatians 3:13,14 says, "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Also, in Hebrews:

"Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us" (Hebrews 6:17,18).

And in Titus:

"In hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began" (Titus 1:2).




Hold that thought....

I will.

________________________________________

Western thinking compared to Eastern, Oriental, Hebrew thinking.

The east, including Israel, tends toward expressing ideas in symbols.
The west leans toward stating conclusions based on facts.
Thus, the east tends to be more intuitive and mystical and the west more cognitive and rational. These are only generalizations, with individual differences apparent in each culture. What that means is that we cannot always take a Bible passage written for understanding by the Hebrew people and get an accurate meaning of it using only our Western way of rational thinking.

For clarity, it is essential to know what the cultural implications were when the message was first written, and how the original recipients would have viewed it.

I agree. Where we differ is what is said, by God, to the original recipients and how they understood it, differs from how we read what is said to the original recipients, and how we understand it. It is very evident that people who read what is said to the original recipients have different conclusions. The traditionalists have their conclusion, the Universalists have their conclusion. Both read what was said to the original recipients from the same Bible. These two conclusions alone, are extreme opposites.

David Livingstone, historically one of the great missionaries of modern times, in the middle 1800s determined to reach the Africans with the Gospel. On one of his efforts to go into the interior, he was advised that the only way would be to make a covenant with one of the chiefs. The deal was that the chief would give Livingstone his old staff with wire wrapped all around it in trade for Livingstone's goat. Livingstone needed the goat for milk, to settle his ulcers, but his people convinced him to make the trade.
They cut the covenant with blood. As David Livingstone then approached each interior tribe he would hold up the staff, and the entire tribe would bow and worship, knowing that Livingstone was in covenant with the strongest chief in the area.
They understood that looking at Livingstone was the same as looking at the chief with whom he had cut covenant.


Malcolm Smith tells the story of a journey into an African village. On the way he stopped at a bank to exchange funds.
The teller put her fingers over the counter waiting for Mr. Smith to reciprocate. After asking his guides, he discovered that this represented two people exchanging blood at the tips of their fingers to insure that no dishonesty would take place in the transaction.

As Mr. Smith, the next day, met the village chief, a very primitive scarcely clad man, he told the chief that God had sent him with a message for his village. When the chief asked about the message, Mr. Smith put out his fingers in the blood covenant sign. The chief was totally overwhelmed and bowed down and accepted Jesus.

He could barely conceive that the Creator would cut a blood covenant with him. The entire village was transformed.



Pastor Pacius Gueston in Haiti, tells many stories about his culture's view of blood and covenants. First, Haiti was given to Satan by the blood of a pig ritual over 200 years ago. Voodoo and the related religions all understand the value of blood in spiritual matters.
He tells the story of a Voodoo priest who came to him in order to better understand Pacius' religion. Pacius had been casting out demons, and this Voodoo priest wanted to know where the power came from.
The priest told Pacius that his best friend had died recently and that even the blood of a chicken could not heal him. Pacius began to tell this man about the blood of Jesus.
He believed immediatly and is now serving in the church.

I don't doubt that many believe immediately upon hearing about the blood of Jesus. As many, if not more, don't believe upon hearing about the blood of Jesus. And what of those who grew up in the church, studied, preached the Good News, and ended up nonbelievers? I know such a person. Will you tell me he never believed?

What is a friend?

The word "friend" in the Oriental/Hebrew culture means a blood covenant partner.



"A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly: and there is a friend that sticketh closer than a brother" (Proverbs 18:24, KJV).



Many cultures that still appreciate blood covenants have a saying, "Blood is thicker than water." The water they refer to is the birth water of the mother, indicating that blood covenant friends are more closely related than children of the same mother. Another way they say it is, "Blood is thicker than milk."

" Friend " is covenant language. It means the most intimate, loyal and strongest interunion between two beings.

"Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you" (John 15:15, KJV).

Shaking hands is a blood covenant gesture. Originally blood was passed between the two parties in the grasp, each guaranteeing that the other would not hurt the other.

Is one blood covenant gesture more binding than another? A covenant, blood or non-blood, is only binding for as long as the parties remain in the covenant. There are no guarantees where man is concerned.


The word remembrance is a very powerful word.

"And He took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, 'This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me'" (Luke 22:19).

Vines Complete Expository Dictionary defines the word as follows:
"it denotes an unassisted recalling, a remembrance prompted by another, however in classical Greek the words are easily interchangeable. This denotes His presence, not in memory of, but in affectionate calling of the Person Himself to mind; an awakening of the mind to the sacrifices under the Law [the blood]."


Malcolm Smith in his book, "The Blood Covenant", makes the following statements about the word remember.

"The word "remember," in covenant language, means to take appropriate and obligatory action. The covenant meal
(communion) punctuates our lives with all He has done and all that we must now do in the power of that finished work. It must never be thought of as an attempt to imagine the sufferings of Jesus and work up emotional sadness. Revelation 4 and 5 are the mentality of a service when the triumphant Lamb is covenantally remembered. Because of the nature of the remembering, it is a time to deal with anything in our lives and relationships that contradict the covenant we are celebrating."

You're late. Where were you 40 years ago? It is not simply a Blood covenant. There is more to it than that. The Innocent suffered and died, not the guilty. Where is the justice in that?


A blood covenant defined.

"A rite by which two persons absorb each the other's blood, either by drinking or by transfusion to the veins, whereby they become bound to each other in even a closer connection than that of brotherhood. It prevails in many countries, civilized and uncivilized, and may be traced back to extreme antiquity. It existed in the rites and literature of the ancient Egyptians, and is frequently alluded to in the Bible.

Dr. H. Clay Trumbull, who has made a scientific examination of the subject, holds that its origin is in the universally dominative primitive convictions that the blood is the life; that the heart, as the blood-fountain, is the very soul of every personality; that blood-transfer is soul-transfer; that blood-sharing, human or divine-human, secures an interunion of natures; and that a union of the human nature with the divine is the highest ultimate attainment reached out after by the most primitive as well as by the most enlightened mind of humanity.
With savage and barbarous peoples the rite lies at the foundations of cannibalism; it is the motive of sacrifices, in which the animal is offered to the god as a substitute for the human blood. In one form the drops of blood were put in wine or other draughts and drunken; then the wine was drunken without the actual presence of the blood, whence we have the use of wine in pledges of friendship and in marriage.
Among the Jews it is symbolized in circumcision; among Christians, in the use of wine in the sacrament."

I understand the symbolism. I don't see the justice in the Innocent punished (suffering and death) instead of the guilty. Why God demands the Blood Sacrifice of the Innocent before He can forgive the guilty.


Peace

kerryjean

[kerryjean]

Hi logos_x,

The following is a rather long bit of reading, but it is necessary that you read it for you to understand anything else I might say further on.

I am providing a link here that might be the most important thing you will ever learn!

Don't skip over it, please read it fully. It is extremely important that you do.

The Centrality of Covenant

(This page is the only one on the site necessary to read)

First, let me say thank you for also posting the link for the program to let my computer read to me. I was going to let my computer read to me, knowing me, I would end up falling asleep! It would be like listening to a bedtime story. "Once upon a time.....in a land far far away......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. :sleep: I wouldn't get very far.

I'm reading it fully. :angel:

I didn't want you to think that I had condensed all the information you have posted into one response. I'm preparing to respond to "The Centrality of Covenant". HEY! It's a Long bit of reading!

Peace

kerryjean

[logos_x]

Originally posted by PureX

I believe that the whole idea of Jesus' death being a blood sacrifice for God's forgiveness is just a fiction invented by religion and that was "interpreted" into the bible over time. I don't believe that God ever demanded any such sacrifice. Jesus died because men killed him. Men killed him because they were not able to understand his message of forgiveness and salvation, or because they just didn't want to hear it. And we're still killing Christ in our hearts, today, for those same reasons.

"Holy bribery" had nothing to do with it.

Your right. "Holy Bribery" has nothing to do with it.

Blood covenant has nothing to do with holy bribery, either.

Originally posted by kerryjean

To be a covenant breaker, says to me, that there has to be an intent on the part of one of the parties of the covenant, to break the covenant. It is my contention that people, in general, do not set out to break the covenant, including the Blood Covenant. Breaking the covenant appears to be inevitable....

....You're late. Where were you 40 years ago? It is not simply a Blood covenant. There is more to it than that. The Innocent suffered and died, not the guilty. Where is the justice in that?...

...I understand the symbolism. I don't see the justice in the Innocent punished (suffering and death) instead of the guilty. Why God demands the Blood Sacrifice of the Innocent before He can forgive the guilty...

OK.

Since I think I've allowed sufficient time...I'm going to respond further.

Your right kerryjean...ther IS more to it than that.

And for this you have to understand what happens at the beginning of the story. This is why Genesis sets the stage the way it does.
The Genesis story is in mythological form...I don't mean fictional, I mean mythological. But...since you and most everyone else knows somewhat about the "fall" of Adam...let me divise a mythological scenario of my own..

Let's say you are a brilliant computer programmer...and you devise a way that you could literally put "yourself"...the "who" that you are...into the machines that you invented. You build them to be able to feel...think...and make choices, and "live" within a virtual world created just for them.
You also know that...if these machines you created...should gain certain knowledge too early in their development, it would spell desaster for them, and also, in order to maintain them within the parameters of their design...the "spirit" of their original template...the "you" programming...had to be preserved, and the machine's choices must fall within certain safety guidelines.

You program them to be in your image and likeness, and design them to procreate.

And..in your wisdom...you realize that their deviating from that design would be inevitable. There is simply too much opportunity in a thinking, living being to choose something differently than you would. And if they DID deviate...they would not be "you" in "them" anymore. And they would begin to destroy each other, and themselves. The image was perfect..and would lead to unending, selfsustaining abundance. Any deviation would lead to disaster.

So...you now have a choice. Find a way to remedy the worst case senario BEFORE you make your machines...or don't make them at all.

A corruption of the image of "you" in them would mean they no longer would be "in your image and likeness" and would make them no longer in relationship to "you" at all.

They would be dead to you...alive only to the whims of their machine parts..and so inevitably would need to be terminated...unless you find a means to restore their original image to them after their failure..and at the same time incorporating what they become as a reference point to be retained to "teach" them WHY deviation is death.

Death has to be turned into victory...before the foundation of your world

So...how would you preserve them, and restore them after their deviation from that image of you in them?

You decide that the only way to do it is by EXCHANGE

You would become one of them. You would be the antivirus that would restore them...destroy the destroyer, and restore your image back into them. You would take all that was "non-image" with you into the death that holds them captive, and rise again as the "second creation" of your own machine race.

And thereby you and them would become one finally.

And you see, because of your incomparable insight, that it would work. Completely.
You decide it would be good to proceed.

Now...all analogies have flaws...but this still runs rather close to the scenario set up at the beginning of your Bible.
It's just a little more sci-fi sounding.

There is no understanding without the resurrected Christ that leads the whole human race back to the One in who's image we are made.

Without that...God would not have created anything.

[kerryjean]

Hi logos_x,

I'm glad you posted. I haven't simply read the link you provided on Centrality of Covenant. I've been studying. While studying, I got stuck....couldn't get un-stuck. :(

I don't have time to explain right now. It's 7:25 am, and I got to be at work at 7:30. If I don't get a move- on I'm going to be late!

Peace

kerryjean

[kerryjean]

Hi logos_x,

After thinking about this all day at work, I decided to go ahead and post this as is. I understand covenants. I understand Blood covenants. What I'm stuck on is the sacrifices themselves. *sigh* What does God need with sacrifices?

************************************************** **
Centrality of Covenant:

Redfin isn't the only one who sees a "continual narrowing down" in the chart. I see it too. Thank you Redfin for posting the link to the "Theory of shrinking covenants".

There is a time of continual decrease, then a time of continual increase. Universalism perspective; The end is as it was in the beginning. God All In All.

************************************************** **
Hi logos_x,
I didn't simply read through the information you provided in the Centrality of Covenants link. I studied.

God initiates covenants with primitive man, with the intention to Gain His Kingdom.

The centrality of Blood covenant is the sacrifices. In the Old Testament there is no blood sacrifice for intentional sins. Blood sacrifices were for unintentional sins. Sins committed in ignorance.

Sacrifices were not something new, that God initiated. Sacrifices were something the Israelites understood as well as every nation surrounding them. Sacrifices were the norm. Blood sacrifices were something they understood.

Does God desire sacrifice? What does God want from humanity/man?

God needs to be reminded of His covenant with man? Man easily forgets his covenant with God, and must constantly be reminded, called back to relationship with God.

Whether in the New Testament or the Old, of whomever we may be speaking, on whatever level--it would seem the case that covenant always is implied as the means by which the two (the several, or the many) become one body. "Body" talk is as much as invariably "covenant" talk and vice versa. Accordingly, biblical theology would seem to demand (and even ordinary discourse might advise) that we not use such terms as "commitment," "agreement," "deal," "understanding," "contract," "pledge," etc., synonymously with "covenant." "Covenant" needs to be reserved for identifying a relationship much more serious and profound than any of these others. In our depreciated language, we call "covenant" many things that should not be so named.

I disagree with the author, Mr. Eller. He suggests we not use terms we understand, to define and describe covenant. To enter a covenant, there must be a commitment on the part of both parties, otherwise there is no relationship within the covenant, IMHO. There has to be an agreement. Both parties Must understand the terms of the covenant. When both parties agree to the terms of the covenant, is there no pledge? "We will obey your commands.".

Personally, I find using human anologies, to define and describe God's covenants with humanity/man, lacking. In Old Testament time, men didn't have one wife, they had many wives and many concubines. A man's wealth was measured by size of his herds, numbers of wives, children, concubines and slaves.

Are we stuck with mundane human anologies to define and describe God's covenant with humanity? Can't we just say what absoluteness of relationship with God is? Wholeness - Completeness - Perfection- Oneness. All In All? Pretty straight forward.

Humanity is made in God's image. Humanity cannot be unmade in God's image, IMO. Mr. Eller's anology of "a ball-and-socket-joint"......lacking. Sure, they fit together beautifully at first, but they wear out after awhile. They don't last forever. Marriage doesn't last forever. What binds the two that they become one flesh? Is it the "coupling"? Or is it the vows they took(?), with the intention, that no matter what happens "to have and to hold from this day forward, for better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish so long as we both shall live.", that they will remain one flesh. If there is no love, and no commitment, all the "coupling" and vows will not keep them.

Jesus is God's last Blood Covenant with humanity. Blood Covenant?

"But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; after those days," says the Lord, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people." (Jeremiah 31:33, cf. Isaiah 59:21

Why do they still wait for the messiah (Anointed One) that God promised them? They didn't understand?


Are we reconciled to God through suffering and punishment?

Are we reconciled to God through death?

Are we reconciled to God through life?

When looking at this from any view, the guilty also die, suffer and are punished.
The traditional view, the guilty are punished and suffer forever and ever. Reconciliation view, the guilty suffer and are punished age-during, and are reconciled to God.

Why does God demand the Blood Sacrifice of the Innocent before He can forgive the guilty?

Peace

kerryjean

[kerryjean]

quote: logos_x; Let's say you are a brilliant computer programmer...and you devise a way that you could literally put "yourself"...the "who" that you are...into the machines that you invented. You build them to be able to feel...think...and make choices, and "live" within a virtual world created just for them.
You also know that...if these machines you created...should gain certain knowledge too early in their development, it would spell desaster for them, and also, in order to maintain them within the parameters of their design...the "spirit" of their original template...the "you" programming...had to be preserved, and the machine's choices must fall within certain safety guidelines.

Once I put the "Me" into the machines I invented, the "Me" cannot be removed in any way. No matter what else happens.

You program them to be in your image and likeness, and design them to procreate.

And..in your wisdom...you realize that their deviating from that design would be inevitable. There is simply too much opportunity in a thinking, living being to choose something differently than you would. And if they DID deviate...they would not be "you" in "them" anymore.

Did I leave them? If I'm in them, I haven't left them. If I'm not in them, I've left them.

And they would begin to destroy each other, and themselves. The image was perfect..and would lead to unending, selfsustaining abundance. Any deviation would lead to disaster.

The stakes are high. Their very souls are at stake.

So...you now have a choice. Find a way to remedy the worst case senario BEFORE you make your machines...or don't make them at all.

A corruption of the image of "you" in them would mean they no longer would be "in your image and likeness" and would make them no longer in relationship to "you" at all.

My image in them is not sufficient? Love is the only relationship possible?

They would be dead to you...alive only to the whims of their machine parts..and so inevitably would need to be terminated...unless you find a means to restore their original image to them after their failure..and at the same time incorporating what they become as a reference point to be retained to "teach" them WHY deviation is death.

Hmm. I can't interfere with their development I have to leave them to their own development. Some of them are pretty daggone stubborn ya know! No matter how many times I tell them, "deviation is death!". I find a means to restore their original image to them....after their failure. It doesn't make sense to the Some. Now what do I do?

Death has to be turned into victory...before the foundation of your world

So...how would you preserve them, and restore them after their deviation from that image of you in them?

You decide that the only way to do it is by EXCHANGE

You would become one of them. You would be the antivirus that would restore them...destroy the destroyer, and restore your image back into them. You would take all that was "non-image" with you into the death that holds them captive, and rise again as the "second creation" of your own machine race.

It isn't "Me" that actually dies. I cannot die. I cannot give "My Life". If I can, I'm no longer "Me". What's the Exchange? Why do I need an Exchange, in order to forgive my wayward creation? Why can't I simply forgive them whenever they come to me asking for forgiveness? What do I desire from them?

And thereby you and them would become one finally.

After they've been punished for their wickedness, unbelief.

And you see, because of your incomparable insight, that it would work. Completely.
You decide it would be good to proceed.

So, it was good to put everybody through all of that? Especially the Innocent?

Now...all analogies have flaws...

Can't be helped. They're Human analogies.

but this still runs rather close to the scenario set up at the beginning of your Bible.
It's just a little more sci-fi sounding.

I rather liked it. It wasn't mundane. Do you have a scenario, in a spiritual sense? There is more to us than these bodies.

Peace

kerryjean

[kerryjean]

Hi Redfin,

Thank you for posting the "Christian Universalism" link. I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on Universal Reconciliation.

It seems to me, God being God, would not settle for anything less than what He intends. What is God's intention? From the beginning to the end?

Peace

kerryjean

[logos_x]

Once I put the "Me" into the machines I invented, the "Me" cannot be removed in any way. No matter what else happens.

No it can't
But they no longer even know they are in your image...and your image is in them.
Their awareness is darkened...and their function corrupted.

Did I leave them? If I'm in them, I haven't left them. If I'm not in them, I've left them.

No..you didn't leave them.
But they left you.

The stakes are high. Their very souls are at stake.

Yes.

My image in them is not sufficient?

Not if they never accept or learn of it's value and purpose.

Love is the only relationship possible?

Yes

Hmm. I can't interfere with their development I have to leave them to their own development. Some of them are pretty daggone stubborn ya know! No matter how many times I tell them, "deviation is death!". I find a means to restore their original image to them....after their failure. It doesn't make sense to the Some. Now what do I do?

Awaken them to who they are...and break through their stubborness.
Like a blade of grass breaking through a cement sidewalk.
but you must do this without usurping their own will...but you can correct their will along the way.

It isn't "Me" that actually dies. I cannot die. I cannot give "My Life". If I can, I'm no longer "Me". What's the Exchange?

You take their death upon yourself...you give them your life.

Why do I need an Exchange, in order to forgive my wayward creation? Why can't I simply forgive them whenever they come to me asking for forgiveness? What do I desire from them?

Becuase excange is the only way...just forgiving them leaves them in their devient and corrupt condition.
The only way is to swallow death up into victory, and remove the corruption, and restore their former position and image.

After they've been punished for their wickedness, unbelief.

For some of the most stubborn ones, the process of retibution could be a painful...but in the end, once they are restored, the process is completed.

So, it was good to put everybody through all of that? Especially the Innocent?

No one is innocent, and putting everyone through all of that establishes the future as one secure from corruption, because everyone knows what it means to deviate and the consequences...it won't ever happen again...it's over, forever.



Can't be helped. They're Human analogies.

yep.

I rather liked it. It wasn't mundane. Do you have a scenario, in a spiritual sense? There is more to us than these bodies.



The spiritual sense in this analogy is the "image".
We are created in the image of God.
It is that which is to be saved....and triumph...in the end.

Logos

[Redfin]

Here's another link (http://www.seejesuschrist.net/universalist-index.html) that has a pretty extensive list of articles.

logos_x, have you ever come across the thought that Jesus' descent into hell laden with sin, and His subsequent ascension, even to heaven itself, is a possible metaphor for what happens to sinful humanity according to the universalist point of view?

[The Edge]

Wow, this thread is way over my head.

Kerryjean, are you a universalist?

[kerryjean]

Wow, this thread is way over my head.

Kerryjean, are you a universalist?

Hi The Edge,

Not yet. I'm studying the Universalist view. Asking Universalists questions I haven't been able to find answers to on my own. Logos_x is the only Universalist I know here at TOL, and gives me lots of study material (links and discussion). Redfin has also given me links, links that I haven't found in researching on my own. I appreciate them both helping me with my research and study. They keep me busy.

I don't jump into something I don't understand. Some things don't make sense from any view IMO (The traditionalist view *I was born into, literally", or the universalist view).

If you haven't read the Heaven and Hell thread I started in this forum, I suggest reading the first page. It explains alot.

Peace

kerryjean

[kerryjean]

Hi logo_x,

No it can't
But they no longer even know they are in your image...and your image is in them.
Their awareness is darkened...and their function corrupted.

If they "no longer even know they are in my image", All of them, every one of them, must have known they are in my image, at some point. At what point did they know? I'm speaking of today, not thousands of years ago.

No..you didn't leave them.
But they left you.

I don't believe they left me. They turned away. They cannot leave me, I am always with them. Question is....When did they turn away? Why did they turn away? Sin? What is sin? Is sin "pulling my sister's hair", confessing I pulled my sister's hair, and saying 4 "Our Father" and 3 "Hail Mary". I know. Step out of the confines of my Catholic knowledge. I use to make up such sins you know. If I Had to go to confession, I Must have done something wrong. My perception as a child of what I was taught. Nobody Ever taught me, as a child, Sin was against God.

Not if they never accept or learn of it's value and purpose.

Who teaches them about my image? How do they perceive what they have been taught?

What of those who have never been taught? How can they learn of it's value and purpose, when they've never been taught?

Awaken them to who they are...and break through their stubborness.
Like a blade of grass breakidng through a cement sidewalk.
but you must do this without usurping their own will...but you can correct their will along the way.

They look outside themselves. They've never been taught to seek within. They perceive the world through their own experiences. They perceive Me the same way, What they've been taught, and through their own experiences. There are some who have heard about me, but that is as far as they've ever gotten. Some, finally give up.

You take their death upon yourself...you give them your life.

All must accept that, or what benefit is it to them.

Becuase excange is the only way...just forgiving them leaves them in their devient and corrupt condition.
The only way is to swallow death up into victory, and remove the corruption, and restore their former position and image.

A time for me to be silent and listen.

For some of the most stubborn ones, the process of retibution could be a painful...but in the end, once they are restored, the process is completed.

I gave my life for them. The "price" has been paid. What did it benefit them?

No one is innocent, and putting everyone through all of that establishes the future as one secure from corruption, because everyone knows what it means to deviate and the consequences...it won't ever happen again...it's over, forever.

Everyone Knows what it means to deviate and the consequences? How can they know, if they've never been taught? How can they know, If what they have been taught doesn't make sense to them? There is One that was innocent. The One who paid the price.

The spiritual sense in this analogy is the "image".
We are created in the image of God.
It is that which is to be saved....and triumph...in the end.

Which brings me to my next questions. What is Universalism/Reconciliation view of Spirit? What is Universalism/Reconciliation view of Soul?

Peace

kerryjean

[kerryjean]

Here's another link (http://www.seejesuschrist.net/universalist-index.html) that has a pretty extensive list of articles.

logos_x, have you ever come across the thought that Jesus' descent into hell laden with sin, and His subsequent ascension, even to heaven itself, is a possible metaphor for what happens to sinful humanity according to the universalist point of view?

Thank you for the link Redfin. It will have to wait till tomorrow.

Peace

kerryjean

[The Edge]

I don't agree with universalism. I don't think the Bible teaches it. And if one is to be a universalist, there's several serious problem passages to get around, and it is sometimes amusing to see how universalists attempt to do so.

Kerry Jean I recommend you just dig into Scripture and take it for what it says. IMHO universalists read too much into things and try to say things about the original Greek to try to back up their view. But you study, and come to a decision.

your friend
The Edge

[logos_x]

I don't agree with universalism. I don't think the Bible teaches it. And if one is to be a universalist, there's several serious problem passages to get around, and it is sometimes amusing to see how universalists attempt to do so.

Edge,
It's OK that you don't agree with Universalism.
But it is laughable that you say "there's several serious problem passages to get around" when there are hundreds of scriptures that people who DON'T believe in universalism have to get around. And it is sometimes amusing to see how Partialists attempt to do so.

Kerry Jean I recommend you just dig into Scripture and take it for what it says. IMHO universalists (or Partialists} read too much into things and try to say things about the original Greek to try to back up their view. But you study, and come to a decision.

your friend
The Edge
comment in parenthesis added


Very good advice, indeed.

[The Edge]

hundreds of scriptures that people who DON'T believe in universalism have to get around
You've given me some of them. Some of them are so off topic there's no way to even relate them to univeralism enough to form an arguement....very weak indeed.

I can see a case for universalism in parts of the Bible; I'll give you that. But I see a much, much stronger case for the opposite.

[logos_x]

What scriptural precepts Partialist's have to ignore or work-around to deny Universal salvation


The early Christians of the first few centuries knew what the Greek word "ta panta" meant. It meant "all." They took Scriptures listed below and believed what they said. To the early Christians, "all" meant "all." This Greek word "ta panta" meant "all" in the Greek and it means "all" in the English. Unfortunately, we live in a time when man calls good, evil and evil, good.

To the modern Partialist church, "all" does not mean "all." As a matter of fact, "all" in many evangelical churches means "some" or "very few." Below are listed a few of the many plain scriptures which no longer mean what they say. Should you decide to believe these plain Scriptures, you will find yourself among the "remnant." The majority of the church has long since abandoned the simplicity and power of the "Original Good News."
Now study these Scriptures in their proper context and see the full salvation of our wonderful Father. We realize a Scripture referring to all trees cannot be meant to imply all human beings. But if the Greek for all things includes both trees and human beings, we must then include human beings. Look at the following Scriptures through all of our Heavenly Father's attributes... Omnipotence, Omniscience, Omnipresence, and Justice beautifully and harmoniously clothe His nature.. which is Love. Then rejoice!



1. 1Tim 2:4-God will have all to be saved
2. 1Tim 2:4-God desires all to come to the knowledge of truth
3. 1Tim 2:6-Salvation of all is testified in due time
4. Jn 12:47-Jesus came to save all
5. Jh 1:11-God works all after the counsel of His will
6. Jn 4:42-Jesus is Savior of the world - Can He be Savior of all without saving all?
7. 1Jn 4:14-Jesus is Savior of the world
8. Jn 12:32-Jesus will draw all mankind unto Himself
9. Col 1:16-By Him all were created
10. Rm 5:15-21-In Adam all condemned, in Christ all live -The same all?
11. 1Cor 15:22-In Adam all die, in Christ all live -Again, the same all?
12. Eph 1:10-All come into Him at the fulness of times
13. Phl 2:9-11-Every tongue shall confess Jesus is Lord - Will the Holy Spirit be given to everyone?
14. 1Cor 12:3-Cannot confess except by Holy Spirit - See what I mean?

15. Rm 11:26-All Israel will be saved - (But most Jews don't believe yet!)
16. Acts 3:20,21-Restitution of all - How plain can you get?
17. Luke 2:10-Jesus will be joy to all people -Is there joy is "hell"?
18. Heb 8:11,12- All will know God
19. Eph 2:7-His grace shown in the ages to come -Have partialists judged Him before the time?
20. Titus 2:11-Grace has appeared to all -Experientially or prophetically?
21. Rm 8:19-21-Creation set at liberty - How much of creation?
22. Col 1:20-All reconciled unto God.
23. 1Cor 4:5-All will have praise of God
24. Jms 5:11-End of the Lord is full of mercy
25. Rev 15:4-All nations worship when God's judgments are seen -Could His judgment be mercy?
26. Rm 11:32-All subject to unbelief, mercy on all
27. Rm 11:36-All out of, through, and into Him
28. Eph 4:10-Jesus will fill all things
29. Rev 5:13-All creation seen praising God
30. 1Cor 15:28-God will be all in all
31. Rev 21:4,5-No more tears, all things made new
32. Jn 5:25-All dead who hear will live
33. Jn 5:28-All in the grave will hear & come forth
34. 1 Cor 3:15-All saved, so as by fire -How can fire save you?
35. Mk 9:49-Everyone shall be salted with fire
36. Rm 11:15-Reconciliation of the world -Will fire save the world instead of destroy it?
37. 2Cor 5:15-Jesus died for all
38. Jn 8:29-Jesus always does what pleases His Father
39. Heb 1:2-Jesus is Heir of all things -Does "things" include people?
40. Jn 17:2-Jesus gives eternal life to all that His Father gave Him -How many did the Father give Him?
41. Jn 3:35-The Father gave Him all things -(Repeated for emphasis) Study the word "things" in the Greek.
42. 1 Tim 4:9-11-Jesus is Savior of all!
43. Heb. 7:25-Jesus is able to save to the uttermost -How far is "uttermost?"
44. 1Cor 15:26-Last enemy, death, will be destroyed
45. Is 46:10-God will do all His pleasure
46. Gen 18:18-All families of the earth will be blessed
47. Dan 4:35-God's will done in heaven and earth -What can defeat His will?
48. Ps 66:3,4-Enemies will submit to God -Can any stay rebellious in "hell?"

49. Ps 90:3-God turns man to destruction, then says return -How can one return from "destruction?"

50. Is 25:7-Will destroy veil spread over all nations
51. Deut 32:39-He kills and makes alive -Kills to bring life?

52. Ps 33:15-God fashions all hearts
53. Prv 16:9-Man devises, God directs his steps"
54. Prv 19:21-Man devises, but God's counsel stands
55. La 3:31,32-God will not cast off forever -Why does He cast off in the first place? (1 Cor 11)
56. Is 2:2-All nations shall flow to the Lord's house -ALL nations?
57. Ps 86:9-All nations will worship Him -ALL nations!
58. Is 45:23-All descendants of Israel justified
59. Ps 138:4-All kings will praise God
60. Ps 65:2-4-All flesh will come to God - !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
61. Ps 72:18-God only does wondrous things
62. Is 19:14,15-Egypt & Assyria will be restored -Really?
63. Ezk 16:55-Sodom will be restored to former estate -Sounds impossible.
64. Jer 32:17-Nothing is too difficult for Him
65. Ps 22:27-All ends of the earth will turn to Him
66. Ps 22:27-All families will worship before Him
67. Ps 145:9-He is good to all
68. Ps 145:9-His mercies are over all his works
69. Ps 145:14-He raises all who fall
70. Ps 145:10-All His works will praise Him
71. Is 25:6-Lord makes a feast for all people

72. Jer 32:35-Never entered His mind to torture his children with fire. This came from the carnal mind.
73. Jn 6:44-No one can come to Him unless He draws them.
74. Jn 12:32-I will draw all mankind unto Myself -Amen!!!
75. Ps 135:6-God does what pleases Him

WHAT PLEASES OUR FATHER?

This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires ("will have" in some translations) all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time . . . (1 Tim 2:3-6). 1 John 4:14 tells us that the Father sent the Son to be Savior of the world. John 3:35 tells us that the Father has given all into Jesus' hands. If it is the desire of the Father to save all and He has given Jesus all power and authority to do his will, why don't we believe Him? "This is the will of the Father Who sent Me, that of all He has given Me, I should lose nothing, but raise it up at the last day." (John 6:39) The Father has given all into His hands. (John 3:35)

The above Scriptures speak very plainly of the salvation of everyone born under the sun. So why doesn't everyone simply believe these Scriptures and rejoice?
There are three main reasons why.

First, most people are vengeful. They do not want all to receive forgiveness. As racists always need someone to look down on, so also, some Christians cannot enjoy their salvation apart from seeing others being denied theirs. They do not want anyone hired at the last hour of the day receiving the same wages as themselves. They do not think this is fair.

Second, and this is why it took me so long to clearly see this wonderful truth, is that many Bibles have been tainted with the pagan doctrines of the dark ages. Roman Catholicism absorbed every dark thought it came in contact with. The early reformators, who first brought the scriptures into every day languages, were still deeply entrenched with the false doctrines of the dark ages. These doctrines found their way into the early Bibles which still have a strong effect on leading modern Bibles. As a result, there are still a few lingering passages grossly mistranslated in our Bibles.

And last but perhaps most important, power hungry leaders have found the doctrine of eternal torment most effective in holding the masses under their control. It was effective for ancient monarchs who held their kingdoms together with fear, and it is effective even today for modern tyrants, whether they be political, business, or religious. Many leading English Bibles actually teach all three main concepts of salvation, that is, eternal torment for many, annihilation for many, and the salvation of all mankind. All three cannot be true.

When John and James wanted to bring fire down on the heads of the Samaritans for not believing the Gospel, Jesus' words to them are still appropriate for many church members: "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of. For the Son of Man did not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them." Are these the words you will hear one day? There is still time to study, pray, and repent. (Luke 9:54-56)

[The Edge]

that's 75.....not "hundreds"

:p

[The Edge]

logos, if I had several hours in one chunk I could go through all of them and address them.

But how do you explain that univeralism is not even addressed as a plausible option in all of the greatest theology books available? It sounds a lot like a cultish "we're right and the whole world is wrong" kind of radical thinking.

It just doesn't make sense, and you have been unable to convince....not even close. The Bible makes no sense if univeralism were true.

Do me a favor, give me a brief narrative of how you came to believe in it; did you believe in it all your life or were you "converted?"

[logos_x]

logos, if I had several hours in one chunk I could go through all of them and address them.

But how do you explain that univeralism is not even addressed as a plausible option in all of the greatest theology books available? It sounds a lot like a cultish "we're right and the whole world is wrong" kind of radical thinking.

It just doesn't make sense, and you have been unable to convince....not even close. The Bible makes no sense if univeralism were true.

Do me a favor, give me a brief narrative of how you came to believe in it; did you believe in it all your life or were you "converted?"

Edge,
I was "converted". And it took several years.

Now...I am sure you would "address" all those scriptures... and cause every one of them to mean something other than what they actually say.
The reason for the post is to point out that what you accuse universalists of doing...i.e. "several serious problem passages to get around", and thus doing "amusing" things to make them "fit"...is the very thing Partialists do to "prove" that Christ will not be completely successful in bringing everyone back to God in the end.

Now...my journey began when I looked into the "sensibleness" of the doctrine of Eternal Torment, and found that most of it's supposed backing was not in scripture at all...and has reached to where I am now when I found that there were four theological schools that taught Universal Reconciliation in early Christianity, one that taught Conditional Immortality, and ONE that taught Eternal Damnation. That coupled with the fact that Eternal Damnation CONTRADICTS the rest of the Bible lead me to look into the original greek to see why the apparent contradiction...and seeing, then, that the contradiction is resolved when Greek is understood as it was originally.
For all those scriptures above to be true...Hell HAS to be remedial and corrective. Otherwise they CANNOT mean what they say when read straightforwardly and literally

[logos_x]

that's 75.....not "hundreds"

:p

;) You really want all of it in one post?

[Redfin]

logos_x, did you miss my question in Post #23?

logos_x, have you ever come across the thought that Jesus' descent into hell laden with sin, and His subsequent ascension, even to heaven itself, is a possible metaphor for what happens to sinful humanity according to the universalist point of view?

[logos_x]

logos_x, did you miss my question in Post #23?

Here's another link (http://www.seejesuschrist.net/universalist-index.html) that has a pretty extensive list of articles.

logos_x, have you ever come across the thought that Jesus' descent into hell laden with sin, and His subsequent ascension, even to heaven itself, is a possible metaphor for what happens to sinful humanity according to the universalist point of view?


Sorry, Redfin, I did miss that one...

Yes, and I subscribe to the thought, and it is a major reason I believe as i do.
When Jesus died and rose again...He took our history with Him in death, and His history became ours. This is the actual premise behind water baptism...we are 'baptized" into His death, making it our own, and rise again in new life...raised with him, and are even now "seated with Him in Heavenly places in Christ Jesus".
Christians are now in position to carry "the Gospel of reconciliation" to the world.

A very good point redfin! thank you for pointing it out.

[logos_x]

I can see a case for universalism in parts of the Bible; I'll give you that. But I see a much, much stronger case for the opposite.

And why is that?

[kerryjean]

Hi The Edge,

I don't agree with universalism. I don't think the Bible teaches it. And if one is to be a universalist, there's several serious problem passages to get around, and it is sometimes amusing to see how universalists attempt to do so.

To be a traditionalist, there's several serious problem passages to get around.

I find nothing amusing about any of this.

Kerry Jean I recommend you just dig into Scripture and take it for what it says.

Good advice T. E. That's what I'm doing.

IMHO universalists read too much into things and try to say things about the original Greek to try to back up their view. But you study, and come to a decision.

IMHO, traditionalists do the same thing.

your friend
The Edge

Peace.

your friend
kerryjean

[kerryjean]

What is the soul that God can destroy, but man cannot kill?

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

[logos_x]

What is the soul that God can destroy, but man cannot kill?

And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28

kerryjean,
The word translated as "destroy" here is the greek word apollumi.
I believe there is one paramount scripture that should teach us what the word "apollumi" means. "For the Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which is lost (apollumi)." (Luke 19:10) This passage refers specifically to Zacchaeus; he was lost, destroyed. Because he was lost, he was ready to be found and saved. The theory of most false definitions of "apollumi" is to prove that the word means "death" from which there is no resurrection, practical annihilation, a state from which salvation is impossible. This passage directly destroys this theory.
Instead of the lost being beyond salvation, they alone are eligible for salvation.
You cannot rescue a man who is safe and sound. It is only when a man is in the state denoted by "apollumi" that salvation can operate in his behalf. Antithetical statements such as this are of great value in the study of words. The terms "seek" and "save," are accurate indications of the opposite of destroy. One who is "destroyed" must be lost or no one would seek him. He must be in a state which calls for salvation or Christ would not have come for him. This proves that destruction is a salvable condition, not a state beyond the reach of deliverance. Add to this the fact only the "lost" are "saved" and it reverses the usual theory of "destruction." God seeks what he has "lost." It is a sad fact that most Christians believe that Jesus is seeking to save the "lost" yet on the other hand they do not believe that He will save the "lost." They do not believe that Jesus will save "lost" mankind. Thus Jesus will not be successful in seeking and saving the lost.

"Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished (apollumi)." (1 Cor. 15:18) Are the Christians who are now sleeping deprived of future life? They are at present time "perished." They are now deprived of life, but in the future, they will be resurrected to life that is immortal.

"But if thy brother be grieve with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitable, destroy (apollumi) not him with thy meat for whom Christ died." (Rom. 14:15, compare 1 Cor. 8:11) According to these scriptures, we can destroy one of our brethren by eating foods which he deems unclean. Does our eating deprive him of life? That would be an easy way to commit legal murder if true.

Thankfully it isn't.

Destruction is a relative term. The coin was lost in relation to the woman. (Luke 15:8,9) The sheep was destroyed as regards to the shepherd. (Luke 15:4-7) The prodigal son had perished in relation to his father. (Luke 15:11-32) So with the destroyed sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 10:5,6) They were not deprived of life, they were away from the great shepherd, their Creator. The prodigals were far off from their father who created them, who loves them, who commissioned His Son Jesus to come to seek and save them. Does this prove they were outside of this affair of salvation? It proves the opposite. Destruction is a prelude to salvation. It never means ultimate annihilation.

The method of destruction or losing is not included in the meaning of the word. It varies with the context. Those who use the sword "shall perish" (apollumi) with the sword." (Matt. 26:52) "But the chief priest and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy (apollumi) Jesus." (Matt. 27:20) Destroy Jesus? Thus our Lord was destroyed by crucifixion. Who will argue that the destruction of Jesus was annihilation? Jesus was only destroyed 3 days and nights, and He returned to life and has immortality.

The disciples were afraid that they would perish by drowning. (Mark 4:38) The sheep was destroyed by straying. ( Luke 15:4) The prodigal son was lost for the same reason. (Luke 15:24) The fragments that remain would have been lost (apollumi) by neglect. (John 6:12) Food perished (apollumi) by decay. (John 6:27) We may destroy a brother by means of food. (Romans 14:15) We may destroy a weak saint by our knowledge. (1 Cor. 8:11) Especially note the last two passages since they apply to believers in Christ. Can we "annihilate" one of our own brothers with food? Christians saved in Christ may be lost or destroyed. God ultimately will not put out of existence those who are lost. God commends His love to us in that He gave His Son Christ Jesus while we were still sinners. (Romans 5:8) Our Lord spoke the parable of the Lost Sheep in order to assure His disciples that God was concerned about the one sheep that had strayed. There is no line that the sinner crosses that brings him beyond the reach of God. Neither life, nor death, nor destruction, neither a career of sin, nor a decaying corpse is any obstacle to Divine Love. No... they are challenges which omnipotence must victoriously conquer or suffer defeat. No death, either first or second, can cope with our God or frustrate His purpose. Study Ephesians 1:9-11, Isaiah 46:8-13.

Everyone who has lost anything will bear witness that the moment it is missing, it assumes an interest and importance which it never had before. Its value increases and we desire it more than ever. Its loss, instead of breaking our connection with it, forges a new link which did not exist before. This becomes tragically true when we lose a loved one. Loss alone brings a realization of the preciousness of possession. Let's never imagine that God is not concerned about the lost; that He is insensible to their condition, or that He would sit complacently by and see them rush to endless oblivion, if He could do anything to head them off. There are a million ways in which we could do this if we had but a tenth of His power. God is able. If the reader of this message will not acknowledge this, he must wait until God makes him realize this.

"Ha Theos agape estin," God is love and all His creatures are dear to Him. Is it not striking that He does not even try to express His affection until they are lost? Whom does God love? He undoubtedly loves all. Whom does He say He loves? God loves the world, (John 3:16) and sinners and His enemies, (Romans 5:8, 1 Cor. 15:22-28) and those who are lost. In God's wisdom, He has decreed that many shall be lost to Him until the end of the ages. Men are often compelled to abandon an enterprise which proved too much for their power. Imagine that God is also compelled to abandon His "will to have all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth?" (1 Tim. 2:4, compare 1 Tim. 4:9-11) Thus God is unable to save all? Or being able He does not? These errors have so polluted the minds of millions of men that they have corrupted the Scriptures to teach everlasting punishment (Matt. 25:46) or everlasting destruction, (2 Thess. 1:8,9) and neither of these translations are correct.

Men are sometimes compelled to kill an animal to put it out of pain. They would not do so if they could cure it. Is our God like this? Is God impotent, powerless to cope with those who are destroyed? All that man can do is kill. They cannot recall from death. Is God also limited like we are? Christ proclaimed Himself as the resurrection and the life. Is the Creator unable to make man respond to His unconditional love? Is His love so repugnant or powerless that it can not loose those enchained to hate, fear, ignorance, etc.?

I don't believe so at all. No, God is able, and willing, to save everyone. I therefore believe He will.

[Mr. Coffee]

Jesus said:

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a large net thrown into the sea. It collected every kind [of fish], and when it was full, they dragged it ashore, sat down, and gathered the good [fish] into containers, but threw out the worthless ones. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, separate the evil people from the righteous, and throw them into the blazing furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13.47-50)

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matt 25.46)

These statements are not conjecture about possibilities; they have all the force of predictive prophecy. Universalism/Annilhilationism is wrong because it makes Jesus out to be a false prophet.

[OMEGA]

God gave the Spirit . It is from inside Him.

When a person dies the spirit goes back to God who gave it where it is stored until the end of the Millenium .

God can unravel the Spirit of man if He wants to but I do not think that He would be inclined to but have all men to be saved.

QUESTION : If God can destroy the Spirit , then why does HE let Satan Live Forever ????????

[logos_x]

Jesus said:

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a large net thrown into the sea. It collected every kind [of fish], and when it was full, they dragged it ashore, sat down, and gathered the good [fish] into containers, but threw out the worthless ones. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will go out, separate the evil people from the righteous, and throw them into the blazing furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matt 13.47-50)

And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (Matt 25.46)

These statements are not conjecture about possibilities; they have all the force of predictive prophecy. Universalism/Annilhilationism is wrong because it makes Jesus out to be a false prophet.

No they are not conjecture about possibilities..

Mat 13:47 `Again, the reign of the heavens is like to a net that was cast into the sea, and did gather together of every kind,
Mat 13:48 which, when it was filled, having drawn up again upon the beach, and having sat down, they gathered the good into vessels, and the bad they did cast out,
Mat 13:49 so shall it be in the full end of the age, the messengers shall come forth and separate the evil out of the midst of the righteous,
Mat 13:50 and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.'

There is NOTHING about "eternal torment" here...

Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
1912 Weymouth NT

And, when aonios is left to mean what it did to the greeks...there is nothing about "eternal torment" here either. The punishment of the Ages accompishes Justice...not a blanket sentence upon all sinners. They are Judged according to their deeds...the fires burning away all the dross of sin and rebellion. This is more in balance with the the Gospel and the complete victory of Jesus over death, Hell, and the grave.

[Mr. Coffee]

Mat 13:50 and shall cast them to the furnace of the fire, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.'

There is NOTHING about "eternal torment" here...It doesn't say that the torment ever stops. The Bible depicts the damned being left in torment; it never depicts freedom after temporary torment in hell.

More prophecy:

The fifth poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues from pain and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, yet they did not repent of their actions. (Rev. 16.10-11) When do they repent, logos? Got scriptures?

and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name. (Rev. 14.11)

Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers! (Matt 7.23) When does Jesus reverse this descision, and why is it left out of the passage?

[Mr. Coffee]

Mat 25:46 "And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."
1912 Weymouth NT

And, when aonios is left to mean what it did to the greeks...there is nothing about "eternal torment" here either. The punishment of the Ages accompishes Justice...not a blanket sentence upon all sinners. They are Judged according to their deeds...the fires burning away all the dross of sin and rebellion. This is more in balance with the the Gospel and the complete victory of Jesus over death, Hell, and the grave.
aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (1 Tim. 1.17).

To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever (Rev. 5.13).

God's glory and rule is not temporary, and forever is not temporary.

[The Edge]

More prophecy:

The fifth poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues from pain and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, yet they did not repent of their actions. (Rev. 16.10-11) When do they repent, logos? Got scriptures?

and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name. (Rev. 14.11)

Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers! (Matt 7.23) When does Jesus reverse this descision, and why is it left out of the passage?
Ilyator,
I hvae told him these passages before, and it's no use. He fails to give an acceptable explanation for these very clear passages teaching eternal torment.

[logos_x]

aionas ton aionon
"ages of the ages"

Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen. (1 Tim. 1.17).

To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever (Rev. 5.13).

God's glory and rule is not temporary, and forever is not temporary.

No..God's rule is not temporary.

Are you saying, then, that because God's rule is not temporary, that He cannot bring all things under His subjection?
Are you saying, that, when all is done...Heaven and Earth has passed away and everything is made new..and God is all and in all...this then means that people spend eternity in sin and rebellion and outside of His rule, under conditions of burning torture, and that God cannot or will not remedy this?

There is the problem.
And the problem is unsolvable if the Bible teaches eternal torment...because it contradicts everything that God IS, and therefore contradicts the rule of God, who's mercy endures forever.

[logos_x]

Ilyator,
I hvae told him these passages before, and it's no use. He fails to give an acceptable explanation for these very clear passages teaching eternal torment.

If it is not acceptible to you..so be it, Edge.
Hold on to your eternal torment if you must.

It's a lie...but believe it as you feel compelled to. No amount of argument will make you see it for what it is.


God Bless.

[logos_x]

It doesn't say that the torment ever stops. The Bible depicts the damned being left in torment; it never depicts freedom after temporary torment in hell.

More prophecy:

The fifth poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. People gnawed their tongues from pain and blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, yet they did not repent of their actions. (Rev. 16.10-11) When do they repent, logos? Got scriptures?

and the smoke of their torment will go up forever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or anyone who receives the mark of his name. (Rev. 14.11)

Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers! (Matt 7.23) When does Jesus reverse this descision, and why is it left out of the passage?

Psa 77:7 Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more?
Psa 77:8 Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore?
Psa 77:9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.

Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Lam 3:34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,
Lam 3:35 To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,
Lam 3:36 To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.

Well...seems to me...we have a contradiction here, if what you say is really true!

[Mr. Coffee]

Are you saying, then, that because God's rule is not temporary, that He cannot bring all things under His subjection?There is a distinction between God's moral will and his sovereign will. The torture and execution of His Son was contrary to his moral will, but not his sovereign will. (Acts 2.23)

God will bring all things under his subjection. Those who die in their sins will not be able to escape his justice. This is not a failure for God. His wrath is an expression of his goodness and power.

Moral will: "As I live"—the declaration of the Lord GOD —"I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that the wicked person should turn from his way and live." (Ezek. 33.11)

God's sovereign will for those who die in their sins: "The LORD guards all those who love Him, but He destroys all the wicked." (Ps. 145.20)

[Mr. Coffee]

Psa 77:7 Will the Lord cast off for ever? and will he be favourable no more?
Psa 77:8 Is his mercy clean gone for ever? doth his promise fail for evermore?
Psa 77:9 Hath God forgotten to be gracious? hath he in anger shut up his tender mercies? Selah.

Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
Lam 3:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.
Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.
Lam 3:34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth,
Lam 3:35 To turn aside the right of a man before the face of the most High,
Lam 3:36 To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not.

Well...seems to me...we have a contradiction here, if what you say is really true!These verses refer to people who will ultimately be saved. But not all are saved.

This is the whole point of the parable of the ten virgins. There will be people who suffer ultimate loss, like the foolish virgins who said, "Master, master, open up for us!" But he replied, "I assure you: I do not know you!" (Matt. 25.11-12) The foolish virgins were never allowed into the feast.

[logos_x]

These verses refer to people who will ultimately be saved. But not all are saved.

This is the whole point of the parable of the ten virgins. There will be people who suffer ultimate loss, like the foolish virgins who said, "Master, master, open up for us!" But he replied, "I assure you: I do not know you!" (Matt. 25.11-12) The foolish virgins were never allowed into the feast.

And you obviously think this means that they also, beyond not being allowed into the feast at that time, that this also means they burn forever without hope of repentance or relief of any kind.

They must abide the consequences of their own negligence...but this does not translate into eternal torment as people have come to think of it today.

Again...If the scripture is true that "God will not cast off forever" (and how can it not be true?) then naturally it has to be concluded that it cannot mean forever here. Otherwise you have an unresolvable contradiction.
Will the Lord cast off forever...or not? Can't have it both ways.

Now...are you aware of the following?

When the word of God goes forth, whatever God speaks shall be done! God's word cannot return to him until it shall have accomplished the purpose for which it was given. When God said, "Let there be light," light was! When Jesus said, "Lazarus, come forth!" there was nothing in the universe that could have kept Lazarus in the tomb. Because Jesus prayed, "Thy will be done in earth as it is in heaven," God's will shall be done in the earth and there is nothing can hinder it. As surely as God said, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, ALL the ends of the earth," you shall see this an accomplished fact. When God commands it, it shall be done! "--who hath told it from that time? have not I the Lord? and there is no God beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me. Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that unto me EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW, and EVERY TONGUE SHALL SWEAR." Isa. 45:21-23

When quoting this scripture, Paul reveals that it is to be in the "name of Jesus" that every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus is the Lord, "to the glory of God the Father." Phil. 2:10

In this declaration, God tells exactly what he wills to accomplish, and in one short verse makes known his "plan of the ages." If there is any question as to God's ability to do whatever he plans to do... "Remember the former things of old, for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, MY COUNSEL SHALL STAND, and I will DO ALL MY PLEASURE." Isa. 46:9-10 Paul had the same conviction of God's ability to accomplish all his pleasure. "In whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will." Eph. 12:11 Many scriptures tell the same thing; whatever God plans to do, he will do.

What was the purpose of God's sending his Son into the world?

The following scripture quotations give God's answer to the question.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be SAVED." John 3:17. To assure that we understand the purpose of his crucifixion, Jesus said, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL men unto me." And again, "If any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not, for I come not to judge the world, but to SAVE the world." John 12:32,47 Jesus also said, "For the Son of man IS COME TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST." Luke 19:10

The apostle John wrote, "And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but ALSO for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD." I John 2:2

Other scriptures which also tell of God's plan: "There was a man sent from God whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light. That ALL through him might believe. He was not that Light, But was sent to bear witness of the Light, that was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." John 1:6-9

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29

A brief recapitulation of these scriptures could be helpful to insure that we don't miss the meaning of what they say:

"--but that THE WORLD THROUGH HIM MIGHT BE SAVED.'

"--I will draw ALL MEN UNTO ME."

"For the Son of man is come TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST."

"For he is the propitiation NOT ONLY for our sins, but for the sins of the whole world."

"--to bear witness of that Light, that ALL through him might believe."

"That was the true Light, that lighteth EVERY man that cometh into the world."

These scriptures completely contradict every thought of "eternal loss" of any part of God's creation. If Jesus did not come to save the world, he would make of himself a liar. If he is unable to save the world, he would then be an impostor.

These scriptures state in the simplest and plainest possible words that the whole purpose of Jesus' coming into the world was that he might save the world. Jesus definitely stated that his purpose was to save THAT WHICH WAS LOST. Either he will succeed in his announced purpose, or else he will not. Church tradition says he will not, but the scriptures declare that he will. What are we to believe?

For these many centuries Satan has offered every lie he could imagine to "explain" the reasons why Jesus either could not or would not save the world. Sometimes he has said that "man's will" is in the way; and sometimes he has said that "God's justice" demands that the sinners be eternally damned. But where did the thought originate that God gives to anyone what he "deserves?" Who among all that ever lived deserved the salvation of Jesus Christ? Who of us was not yet a sinner when Christ loved us and died for us?

The Apostle wrote: "For therefore we both labor and suffer reproach because we trust in a living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, specially of those that believe.

We who are chosen to be members of his body, and co-workers with Jesus in his great plan of redemption, are privileged above all others. To have been called out of darkness into this marvelous light means that we not only have the opportunity of serving Jesus Christ now, but we are to be made kings and priests with him, and be co-workers together with Jesus Christ." In that priesthood we shall have opportunity of ministering the life of the Gospel of Jesus Christ for as long as there yet remains one in need of salvation. It is no wonder Paul said, "specially of those who believe." I Tim. 4:10

Paul did not limit the grace of Jesus Christ to this age alone. He wrote: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will have ALL men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth, for there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a ransom for ALL, to be testified in DUE TIME, whereunto I am ordained a preacher and an apostle." I Tim. 2-6

"That in the DISPENSATION of the FULLNESS of times he might gather together in one ALL things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him." Eph.1:10

Paul speaks of the "mystery of Christ, which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;" Eph. 3-5 In speaking of this to the Colossians, Paul wrote: "And having made peace through the blood of the cross, by him to reconcile ALL things unto himself, by him, whether things in earth, or things in heaven." Col. 1:20

"All things were made by him and for him." "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given unto us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit: that God was in Christ, reconciling THE WORLD unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor. 5:18-19

It is a mistake to assume that in the coming age God will change; that he--whom Paul was so fond of calling "our Savior God"-- will not be the same for the ages as he was yesterday and as he is today. His saving grace and mercy will never end while there are still those in need of that mercy!

[Mr. Coffee]

And you obviously think this means that they also, beyond not being allowed into the feast at that time, that this also means they burn forever without hope of repentance or relief of any kind.

They must abide the consequences of their own negligence...but this does not translate into eternal torment as people have come to think of it today.

Again...If the scripture is true that "God will not cast off forever" (and how can it not be true?) then naturally it has to be concluded that it cannot mean forever here. Otherwise you have an unresolvable contradiction.
Will the Lord ca