racism

[billwald]

90% of the time whenever there is a complaint about racism it always boils down to people who (at least half the time self designate) as "African American" or equivalent.

Being a big eater, I judge things by food. When I was a kid It was a rare thing to fine decent Chinese chow. Now every town has a at least one Chinese cafe. 50 years ago Japan was the enemy now Japanese kids are winning the scholastic awards and are in all the professions. Can't go any place with without finding a Korean and VietNamese place. Or a Thai or an (East) Indian cafe. Why isn't there an African American fast food place in every neighborhood?

[Lucky]

Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Thai and Indian all represent a specific country. What country does 'African American' represent? If I had to guess, I'd rule out Africa, as that's a continent not a country, and go with America. And there are American fast food places everywhere.

[Granite]

Originally posted by billwald

90% of the time whenever there is a complaint about racism it always boils down to people who (at least half the time self designate) as "African American" or equivalent.

Being a big eater, I judge things by food. When I was a kid It was a rare thing to fine decent Chinese chow. Now every town has a at least one Chinese cafe. 50 years ago Japan was the enemy now Japanese kids are winning the scholastic awards and are in all the professions. Can't go any place with without finding a Korean and VietNamese place. Or a Thai or an (East) Indian cafe. Why isn't there an African American fast food place in every neighborhood?

Maybe because the tastes of black people don't differ widely from a white guy's?

[billwald]

The point is that only African-Americans have a problem in this country. In Seattle there is an annual "Buy Black Week" to encourage black owned businesses. Never needed a "Buy Yellow" or "Buy Swede" or "BUY Italian" week. Not even a "Buy Mexican Week." Mexicans are smart enough to help their own people.

[Lucky]

Originally posted by billwald

The point is that only African-Americans have a problem in this country.
And the problem is what? No restaurants?

[Granite]

Apparently.

[billwald]

The problem is they have a defective culture and can't meld into America.

[Thia]

I'm sorry, but that's our karma for bringing them over here as slaves in the first place! We made them dependent on us.

[Granite]

Originally posted by billwald

The problem is they have a defective culture and can't meld into America.

"Defective." Uh-huuuh. In what sense?

[Chileice]

Originally posted by billwald

The problem is they have a defective culture and can't meld into America.

You're defective... in your understanding of history and of human beings. I have counseled hundreds of people in my life and few of them were black. I think I can say from experience ALL of us have problems.

Secondly, about the food. Africa has some great dishes. Some of the most tasty food I've ever eaten are African dishes. But the Africans brought to this continent had the cra- kicked out of them if they did anything african. They were forced to lose their culture because the slave owners didn't even think they had souls. So its a little hard to pass your culture on under such adverse conditions. So most blacks don't carry any african recipes in their back pockets haded down from generation to generation.

That being said, I've had some of the absolute best barbeque in my life in establishments run by blacks. I think YOU ought to get out more often and open your big eyes and get off your racist tirade. This thread kind of surprises me, Billwald. I didn't guess you would be that kind of person. Hope you are able to move on. In the meantime go find a good black owned restaurant, have some great food and then go ask for the recipe.

[Granite]

By the way, anybody think that bill might be on crack if he's using eateries as a racial litmus test?:rolleyes:

[billwald]

No. Using eateries as a test for initiative and private enterprise. There should be a "black" barbecue take out place at least every 10 blocks as just there is a teriyaki takeout place. Why Not?

Seattle, thanks to forced public school bussing in the middle '70's, lost 100,000 people and the school district lost 50,000 kids. This was NOT because of the economy because King County gained these people. The school district went from 8% to 45% minority. The trashed "black" area expanded 100% into the Rainier Valley.

Seattle was also the port of entry for the Hmung People and the VietNamese Boat People who didn't have a pot to pee in. All went into public housing and the black people complained "Theys taking OUR housing and welfare money." These were hill people, not city people and half had never had indoor plumbing.

The VietNamese people started by leasing run down, boarded up store fronts in China Town. The Family lived in the back room and ran the store while the father worked 2 or 3 low paying jobs. One family saved enough to buy a large lot in a black area which had been mostly dopers and hookers. They built a small shopping center. Other Oriental (not Asian) people did the same and now the Rainier Valley is reclaimed by white and Oriental working people and most of the old "Central District" has been transformed into a decent neighborhood - all thanks to the Boat People who don't get any credit because they havn't learned to be political.

Now days most of the academic awards are earned by Oriental People (Not "Asian" South Pacific Island People) and every profession is filled with unpronouncable names.

The black people had the same opportunity and the advantage of speaking English (sort of). They havn't done anything in Seattle and still sit in the Projects, complaining about not enough welfare.

That's the way it was. I lived and worked through it.

[Granite]

Well...I can relate to an anecdote like this. Lived in Detroit and its burbs for some time.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by billwald

The point is that only African-Americans have a problem in this country. In Seattle there is an annual "Buy Black Week" to encourage black owned businesses. Never needed a "Buy Yellow" or "Buy Swede" or "BUY Italian" week. Not even a "Buy Mexican Week." Mexicans are smart enough to help their own people.

Does that mean Blacks aren't?

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by billwald

The problem is they have a defective culture and can't meld into America.

One of the problems with American black culture is they are being told that they are in need of special laws to give them an equal footing. They are being told that they need to rely on the government and they cannot succeed without it. They are being told that any black who does not rely on Affirmative Action and the NAACP must be an Uncle Tom.

Do you know who is telling them this? Their own black liberal democrat leaders! :doh:

[PureX]

Originally posted by billwald The point is that only African-Americans have a problem in this country. In Seattle there is an annual "Buy Black Week" to encourage black owned businesses. Never needed a "Buy Yellow" or "Buy Swede" or "BUY Italian" week. Not even a "Buy Mexican Week." Mexicans are smart enough to help their own people. The sad truth is that racism is based on an irrational fear of differences. People with black skin are more "different" from white people than people with any other color skin. So the racism is always going to be more pronounced between people with the greatest obvious differences. Since skin color is an obvious difference, and the difference between black and white skin color is the most pronounced, it naturally follows that racism will be more pronounced and intense between people of dark and light skin color.

The only way to combat racism is to mitigate the perception of, and then face down our irrational fear of our "differences". We've been working on this for many years, in America, but we still have a long way to go. And it appears that as we begin to overcome our irrational fear of people with different skin color, it intensifies in other areas of difference. Thus, as Americans begin to overcome their irrational fears based on skin color, this fear seems to be intensifying regarding sexual orientation and political ideology. We aren't facing down our irrational fears, we're simply transferring them to another group of "strangers". This, too, is sadly commonplace.

Prejudice is basically just our own irrational fears being projected onto "strangers" simply because they are perceived as "strange" to us. We'll never overcome these prejudices until we address and overcome our irrational fear of anything (and anyone) "different". And so far it seems that we'd rather just transfer our fears to another group of "scape-goats" then actually face them down once and for all.

[LivingDeadDoll]

Before i even comment i am curious just how far you guys are willing to go in this debate, if you wanna get serious, i've got some views. But i don't want to waste anyones time either, so let me know, this could get intense....

[BillyBob]

Go for it.

[LivingDeadDoll]

:chuckle: oh, and i will....
but first i have to tend to my kids for a bit, but i shall return with haste for this one! :devil:

[billwald]

Before WW2 there was very little race mixing and there was no advantage for a white person to pass as black. The book, "Black Like Me," was a best seller because of this. These days there is an economic advantge. When the City of Seattle decided to promote on the basis of race several previously white people turned into something else.

How can I discriminate against people that I can't visually identify unless they first invite discrimination?

[LivingDeadDoll]

Originally posted by billwald

Before WW2 there was very little race mixing and there was no advantage for a white person to pass as black. The book, "Black Like Me," was a best seller because of this. These days there is an economic advantge. When the City of Seattle decided to promote on the basis of race several previously white people turned into something else.

How can I discriminate against people that I can't visually identify unless they first invite discrimination?

what?:confused:

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by billwald

Before WW2 there was very little race mixing and there was no advantage for a white person to pass as black. The book, "Black Like Me," was a best seller because of this. These days there is an economic advantge. When the City of Seattle decided to promote on the basis of race several previously white people turned into something else.


All the more reason for the government to stay out of the business of racism.

[LivingDeadDoll]

ya' know!

[LivingDeadDoll]

Here's a point i will start with, think about it, you go to the zoo, they put different monkeys, in different cages.

[BillyBob]

And.......................?

[Zimfan]

:chew: Mmmm...monkey.

[PureX]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll Here's a point i will start with, think about it, you go to the zoo, they put different monkeys, in different cages. Different species? Of course.

They also often have to seperate the "adolescent" males from the rest of the group. In most primate groups there can be only one dominant male, and as the young males reach maturity, they are chased away by the dominant male. They might be killed if they are not removed from the enclosed environment. They live alone until they can eventually challenge another dominant male, successfully. Or until their human keepers give them a "family" of their own.

I don't really see how any of this relates to racism, though.

[billwald]

Humanity is one specie but several breeds. Our origional ancestors camr from Africa and were probably black. Why else is black the dominant characteristic and white the recessive?

[Granite]

I don't know about the dominant/recessive thing...I'm sure it's true, just don't know enough about it make an informed opinion.

There are differences; there's no two ways around that. I think people should make less of these differences and quit making mountains from molehills. Both sides are guilty of that.

People are just people and to suggest we need to separate blacks and whites (and presumably everybody else) is ignorant and absurd.

[Granite]

Another thought: how many people here know or work with blacks?

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by granite1010

Another thought: how many people here know or work with blacks?

I imagine we all do.

[Crow]

Originally posted by Thia

I'm sorry, but that's our karma for bringing them over here as slaves in the first place! We made them dependent on us.

Maybe your family.

Part of my family was here before the whites or the blacks. Another part was Quaker, and didn't own slaves. And a few of those Friends overrode their profound distaste for war to fight to free them.

Nobody living today is a slave or owned one.

[BillyBob]

Yep, my family didn't come to the US until the turn of the 20th Century, no slave ownership in my family. :nono:

[Granite]

Originally posted by BillyBob

I imagine we all do.

Maybe yes, maybe no. For my part I don't think of them as the office "black guys." They're just a couple guys I work with.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by granite1010

Maybe yes, maybe no. For my part I don't think of them as the office "black guys." They're just a couple guys I work with.

Sure, but if we are going to discuss racism, they will become the office 'black guys' for a time.

[BillyBob]

I thought LivingDeadDoll had some profound insight she was going to share...

[Granite]

Me too. Somebody steal her thunder?

[LivingDeadDoll]

You say we should put differences ASIDE? give me a break, i think you should put more thought into the issue. It's not like there are only a few differences, there are multitudes of differences, and they have an ill effect in many areas. Do you even realize how much money goes out to them just to be able to allow them to SURVIVE!? Have you ever BEEN in a welfare office?!?!?! Have you ever even BEEN to the projects? Black people don't just look different than us you know, their bodies react diffrently than ours to diseases, males have differents hormones, they adapt differently to their surroundings and in social situations, tumors are found to be different, bones are different, left ventricular structure is different, they are less likely to leave a tip for services (yes they did a study on this), they have a higher infant mortality rate, crime, AIDS, welfare, did you know that they even do more poorly on IQ tests than white people? Now THINK ABOUT THIS....

An IQ of atleast 115 is considered necessary for a person to excel in college work or for top managerial and professional jobs in America, now...did you know that atleast 25% of blacks are below 75 in IQ..AND did you know...an IQ of 70-75 is considered borderline retarded by most psychologists..THINK...think about our children in the school system, it would make sense to group children in classrooms by ability right, that way the students that were more intelligent could reach their full potential by not being slowed down by students not as bright as them, if you grouped all students by IQ it would just about resegregate schools!!!!!! (once again statistics and studies ahow)But if you were to group children in schools by testing and it naturally segregated race you would have a million black people screaming that it was "unfair". That happens with jobs, and they scream about it being unfair, but it isn't, you do more poorly you are going to get paid less, but a black person that gets paid less than a white person is usually going to start screaming "racism". What about black college funds, are there any funds available to a person just becasue they are white???

If you think about some of this information as a whole you can see where it all points out that EQUAL RIGHTS is kind of ridicuous because we just aren't EQUAL, AND...as a matter of fact statistics show that not only are we not equal , but blacks do more poorly in most areas of evaluation. You can look this information up for yourself if you don't believe me. Statistics show it all.

And generally speaking black people are even animalistic in nature. Loud, traveling in "packs", you can even look up information about this!

Look at the fast food industry, you go to a fast food restaurant where the majority of people working in it are black, it is going to take FOREVER and when you finally do get your meal chances are it's gonna be wrong! I mean, how hard is the job really? But you know it's true. And half of the time you have to ask them to repeat themselves over and over because they don't even speak properly! I could go on and on about the differences, and the way that it all points to the fact that the black race, generally speaking is inferior to the white race.

NOW, don't go telling me that there are white people who fall into some of the same categories becasue i am well aware of this. I am speaking generally and statisticly. And yes, i have had many black friends. I am just a realist. And it is possible that PART of my opinion on the matter could be environmental in the fact that i live in a town where there are a lot of uneducated poor black people. But i have been other places, and i usually find the same scenerios. And i even have a friend who is black that will tell you many of the same things i have said here.

i just don't buy into the whole"my ancestors were slaves so everyone owes me something" bit. It's tired and it's absurd.

[Thia]

Originally posted by Crow

Maybe your family.

Part of my family was here before the whites or the blacks. Another part was Quaker, and didn't own slaves. And a few of those Friends overrode their profound distaste for war to fight to free them.

Nobody living today is a slave or owned one.

That's not the point - the point is, America was into slave trading/owning at one time and that's how the Africans got here in the first place. England had the same odious practices.

[Granite]

This latest freak sounds a LOT like crythvn. Anybody else with me on that?

Honey, here's a clue: racism's racism no matter how you sugar coat it.

I hafta ask, assuming everything you say is true, what's your solution? Your fix? What would you do about these issues if you had the power to do so?

Racists talk a good game about problems and usually don't own up to what they would LIKE to do about it, given a chance...

[LivingDeadDoll]

First of all i haven't called any names so i would appreciate the same respect from others. But this is exactly what i mean, just because the information gathered shows negative aspects toward black people you want to attack me and call me names. Did you not hear me say that i have black friends? If i were "racist" i would not interact with other races. Hello? I'm sorry if i point out some facts that project a negative feeling toward black people, but that it the topic at hand and i have offered up some facts into the discussion. Don't get the impression that i am standing outside a courthouse somewhere shaking a noose at black people and screaming bring back slavery. I have no "solution", this is just life. I don't like the rude, dirty, scary groups of mexicans that have been brought into my town after the huirricane either, nor do i care for the trailer park white trash down the street, but we were talking about black people, and i gave my views based on personal experience and data that i gathered through research on the matter. I'm sorry if you don't like what i had to say but the name calling thing is a bit absurd, isn't this the point around here? debating? where's your side of the story if you disagree with me? don't you have any farther evidence of why you believe differently than I? i guess not since all you could think of was to insult me.

[Granite]

Sorry, who exactly called names? I didn't. A spade's a spade. (Oh, okay. "Freak" crosses a line, I guess.)

All I have to say is, you can't beat something with nothing. Complaining about racial issues is pretty pointless unless there's a proposed fix. And I don't think you can just talk anyone into improving their condition, black or white.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Thia

That's not the point - the point is, America was into slave trading/owning at one time and that's how the Africans got here in the first place. England had the same odious practices.

My Dear, to say that America has a 'Karma' attached to it because of a practice that was abolished 150 years ago is new age nonsense. Are you aware of the hundreds of thousands of Americans who shed blood freeing the slaves? Are you aware of a US Constitutional Ammendment that made their freedom permanent?

[BillyBob]

LDD, some of your points may be valid, but many of them seem to be conjecture. It would be a good idea to supply some links that support your claims, such as the medical ones. Also, I believe you claimed that 25% of all blacks have an IQ lower than 75, care to supply some verification?

[LivingDeadDoll]

I'm not "complaining" i was stating my view on the matter. And furthermore i didn't think the topic at hand was how to "fix" anything, so why do you keep suggesting that i should have a solution? Do you have a solution for all the problems of the world? No, i would think not. But you still have views don't you?

[LivingDeadDoll]

Originally posted by BillyBob

LDD, some of your points may be valid, but many of them seem to be conjecture. It would be a good idea to supply some links that support your claims, such as the medical ones. Also, I believe you claimed that 25% of all blacks have an IQ lower than 75, care to supply some verification?

not a problem at all, but it will take a few moments....:thumb:

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Thia

That's not the point - the point is, America was into slave trading/owning at one time and that's how the Africans got here in the first place. England had the same odious practices.

Did you know that most slaves that were shipped to the America's were shipped to South America? Does South America also have a Bad Karma?

[Thia]

Originally posted by BillyBob

Did you know that most slaves that were shipped to the America's were shipped to South America? Does South America also have a Bad Karma?

Prolly. For the record, folks, I was being glib when I made the remark about 'karma'; the Chinese built the railroads and they were from China - you don't see them being dependent on society for any rewards or reparation.

[BillyBob]

The Chinese came to America on their own accord and got paid for their work.

[Thia]

Yes yes yes they did. Weren't paid much, and certainly were targets of racism, but they still survived without becoming 'victims'.

[Granite]

True enough. Their opium use was a little overblown, I'd say, and gave us one more reason to hate one more group, but ah well.

[Zimfan]

Originally posted by Thia

Prolly. For the record, folks, I was being glib when I made the remark about 'karma'; the Chinese built the railroads and they were from China - you don't see them being dependent on society for any rewards or reparation.

:think: The same goes for the Irish, and the Italians....

[LivingDeadDoll]

ZimFan - did your name happen to come from InvaderZim?

[Four O'Clock]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll
What about black college funds, are there any funds available to a person just becasue they are white???


Actually, to be exact, The United Negro College Fund HAS provided funds throughout it's existence to many white students who proudly call schools like Howard, Grambling, Florida A&M, among others their alma mater.

[LivingDeadDoll]

well, that one actually was a real question and not a point. But still, where's the United Caucasian College Fund? Oh yeah, there isn't one because caucasian's excel in academics and other areas enough that there isn't a need.

[Granite]

I'm not sure what that proves or if there's much of a point there, other than the obvious. So whites excel in academics...blacks excel in athletic achievement. Different gifts.

[Thia]

Originally posted by Zimfan

:think: The same goes for the Irish, and the Italians....

....and a lot of the other non-WASP immigrants, too. Again, my point is that there are many people who have come to this country, either voluntarily or forcefully, who have managed to survive in this world of ours. They don't whine, they don't ask for hand-outs, they just work harder. In my area there are a lot of 'career' Section 8 families who don't have the motivation to do anything but hang out; then they blame their lack of ambition on how historically badly 'they' were treated by the 'man'. It's that sense of self-entitlement that is so annoying...and which can foster racism. My opinion, natch.

[Crow]

Originally posted by Thia

That's not the point - the point is, America was into slave trading/owning at one time and that's how the Africans got here in the first place. England had the same odious practices.

And I'm still here despite the efforts to exterminate some of my people. That was long ago, before my father's birth. In the time of my great, great, great grandmother.

At some point, we have to stand back and say "We go on from here." Otherwise, we all live up to our necks in the odure from the past.

IMHO, those who wish to dwell in the wrongs of the past are too lazy or cowardly to live in the present and work toward the future. It happened. It didn't happen to us. We have our own lives to live. For pity's sake, it's time to move on.

[Granite]

Exactly. Reach back far enough and we're all descended from "victims" or people who were oppressed at one point. I'm half Jewish and half Irish. What am I gonna do--demand money from the country that turned my ancestors into smog, or ask for reparations because the British drove some great great uncle of mine off his land?

Grow up, folks. Focus on the here and now.

[billwald]

Whatever IQ tests measure, they are predictive of success in "Corporate America." "The Bell Curve," (I'm one of the few people who actually read it) also observed that Baptists are also under represented in corporate board rooms and the Episcopal Church is over represented.

The political solution is treating all people equally before the law including no deals for rich people.

The social solution is for the successful African Americans to stop making excuses for their failed brothers and blaming there failure on white people. Can't wait to see how the recent AIDS rate report will be blamed on white people.

[Four O'Clock]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

well, that one actually was a real question and not a point. But still, where's the United Caucasian College Fund? Oh yeah, there isn't one because caucasian's excel in academics and other areas enough that there isn't a need.

Many whites excel in athletics.
Many blacks excel academically (I'm currently in grad school and my advisor is a black PhD)
You've tossed out ideas suggesting that blacks are less intelligent than whites. 25% here, so much there. I believe BillyBob asked you to post the source of your statistics. We're waiting.
As far as your "united caucasian college fund" bit, despite the fact that slavery has been outlawed for 150 years blacks were continually shut out of higher education in large part until the last 50 years or so so who was getting the billions of scholarship dollars to the big universities year in and year out? White boys and girls. During that time if a young Negro boy or girl wanted to get into the doors of most major universities the only way they could do it is if they were carrying a pail and a mop. Not to mention public lynchings and segregated water fountains, cafes, bathrooms, etc...in my lifetime.
Despite continuing advances in racial fairness society's "table" is still not completely level. my $0.02

[LivingDeadDoll]

Originally posted by granite1010

I'm not sure what that proves or if there's much of a point there, other than the obvious. So whites excel in academics...blacks excel in athletic achievement. Different gifts.

Well, i'm not quite sure how being able to run at a great speed or dunk a ball is going to contribute much to our society and the bettering of our nation. Don't get me wrong, i love sports, and it's great that black people do well in them but as i said, it isn't a large contributor to our advancement.

[wickwoman]

Dear Billwald:

I think you should consider the fact that black people were selectively "bred" in the United States and intelligence was not a trait that slave owners normally wanted. They wanted women who could give birth to lots of new slaves, and men with very brawny bodies who could do heavy lifting and hard work.

So, coupled with the fact that, compared to immigrants, black people were forced to come here and, when the finally gained freedom they went from being in the minus column economically speaking to having nothing, enduring many many years of discrimination, coupled with mere genetic problems inherent in a race that has been bred specifically for the purposes I listed above, I think you could cut them a little slack.

And, if you do believe that black people are less intelligent, and therefore poor and a burden on society, it seems you would be more than willing for there to be a Negro College fund so they could get educated and off the public dime.

As a lifetime resident of the south I notice that black people who live in northern states and from other parts of the country, are very different from many of the ancestors of slaves that we have living here. That for one, should speak to the problems of breeding a race of people as if they were animals. And, you should be wanting to lend a hand to overcome whatever "bad karma" we've sewn. And, in my opinion there's plenty of bad karma for white people to overcome related to past and current treatment of black people.

[LivingDeadDoll]

Originally posted by Four O'Clock

I believe BillyBob asked you to post the source of your statistics. We're waiting.


And when i have the time in my day, that is quite hectic, i WILL post it, however it will require a few more moments than it takes to make a quick comment. Patience is a virtue.

[Granite]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

Well, i'm not quite sure how being able to run at a great speed or dunk a ball is going to contribute much to our society and the bettering of our nation. Don't get me wrong, i love sports, and it's great that black people do well in them but as i said, it isn't a large contributor to our advancement.

I'm sorry, but if every gift or talent we're given is somehow supposed to "contribute much to our society," ninety percent of this country's SOL.

I'm not sure what you're talking about when speaking of "our advancement." Are you saying blacks do not contribute to the "advancement" of society?

[LivingDeadDoll]

I'm only saying exactly what i said and nothing more, i don't speak in hidden code, and i don't have alternate meanings. I should stop posting right now though because i am caught between construction, kids, lunch, daily chores, etc., etc., and i should wait until i have a clear moment so that i don't misrepresent myself in this matter, it's like i'm drive-by posting right now and it will lead to no where. Be back asap. And when i return i will have those links you are waiting on. :)

[Zimfan]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

ZimFan - did your name happen to come from InvaderZim?

Yep.

[Granite]

Okay, this is officially creepy. Cry's twin sister or something.:noid:

[Four O'Clock]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

I'm only saying exactly what i said and nothing more, i don't speak in hidden code, and i don't have alternate meanings. I should stop posting right now though because i am caught between construction, kids, lunch, daily chores, etc., etc., and i should wait until i have a clear moment so that i don't misrepresent myself in this matter, it's like i'm drive-by posting right now and it will lead to no where. Be back asap. And when i return i will have those links you are waiting on. :)

Let us hope that these indisputable facts don't hail from some Aryian-minded "intellectual" source.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

Well, i'm not quite sure how being able to run at a great speed or dunk a ball is going to contribute much to our society and the bettering of our nation. Don't get me wrong, i love sports, and it's great that black people do well in them but as i said, it isn't a large contributor to our advancement.

Professional athletes get paid well. I suggest that they are contributing to our booming economy in many ways.

[Rydo]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

You say we should put differences ASIDE? give me a break, i think you should put more thought into the issue. It's not like there are only a few differences, there are multitudes of differences
Actually, recent studies show that "putting differences aside," or "ignoring differences" is exactly what minority groups don't want. They don't want whites claiming to be "color blind," they are black (or of another race) and want to be seen as such. They want their differences understood and respected, not ignored or influenced to be "more white."

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

Black people don't just look different than us you know, their bodies react diffrently than ours to diseases, males have differents hormones, they adapt differently to their surroundings and in social situations, tumors are found to be different, bones are different, left ventricular structure is different
First, I'd like to see support for such claims -- some links would be nice. Second, why are those differences necessarily bad? I would think it's fascinating, not disturbing, that our bodies are different. We are different, and that's the point. We should embrace those differences, not try to change or ignore them.

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

... they are less likely to leave a tip for services (yes they did a study on this), they have a higher infant mortality rate, crime, AIDS, welfare ...
Links please? Anyone can spout off "information" about "studies." People who earn a lower income generally leave a lower tip. More than that, people from different cultures leave different tips. Europeans generally leave a lower tip than Americans. Can we then, according to your logic, say the same thing about Europeans? Nope.

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

did you know that they even do more poorly on IQ tests than white people? Now THINK ABOUT THIS....
No, you think about this: who created the IQ test? Alfred Binet, a white Frenchman, created the first IQ test. It was created to measure what white people viewed as a standard of intelligence.

The same thing goes for what you said about jobs. A lot of time, "job training," in terms of management-type positions, are modeled after the white businessman. People -- regardless of race, ethnicity, and gender -- are trained by corporate America to be more like corporate America. White businessmen. Let's all think alike, then we'll start moving places, right?

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

And generally speaking black people are even animalistic in nature. Loud, traveling in "packs", you can even look up information about this!
What is so terrible about this? Africans are a drumming people, they are a dancing people. When they were brought over as slaves, their drums were taken away, but that didn't stop them from drumming. They clapped, they sang in rhymic beats, they stomped, and they danced.

The fact is, whites systematically destroyed traditional African culture in America. Since slaves in North America were generally treated better than slaves in the Caribbean, they generally lived longer -- long enough to reproduce. Since slaves reproduced slaves right here in America, a large influx of slaves was not necessary to keep the population. This severed the ties between slaves and their African home. They didn't have more and more slaves coming over to bring fresh reminders of tradition.

Furthermore, whites were afraid that allowing Africans to enjoy their culture would give them a common foundation on which to rebel. Whites consciously divided up the different cultures -- slaves on a single plantation were often from various different cultures, speaking different languages, dialects, having different traditions and beliefs... this was done on purpose. Whites didn't want blacks communicating. They wanted them to follow blindly.

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

... i just don't buy into the whole"my ancestors were slaves so everyone owes me something" bit. It's tired and it's absurd.
I think you're missing the point, and I think you would benefit greatly from an anthropology course that studies the slave trade and it's subsequent effect on contemporary cultures, because you are gravely mistaken in many ways, some of which I have shown above.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by granite1010

Okay, this is officially creepy. Cry's twin sister or something.:noid:

I know what you mean, but I want to give LDD ample opportunity to explain her position and post some links.

[Rydo]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

Well, i'm not quite sure how being able to run at a great speed or dunk a ball is going to contribute much to our society and the bettering of our nation. Don't get me wrong, i love sports, and it's great that black people do well in them but as i said, it isn't a large contributor to our advancement.

Sports and entertainment are enormous economic industries. They generate billions in revenue every single year, so I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.

[Granite]

Originally posted by BillyBob

I know what you mean, but I want to give LDD ample opportunity to explain her position and post some links.

Definitely. It's just officially creepy, that's all.:D I'm all in favor of her defending what she says, no problemo there...

[LivingDeadDoll]

http://www.ccjrc.org/pdf/peopleofcolor.pdf

http://www.harrisschool.uchicago.ed...eratedwomen.pdf

http://www.idph.state.il.us/public/...american_fs.htm

http://www.prometheism.net/articles/dukerace.html

http://www.innocentinprison.org/information/usa.html

I had a minute to get a few of those links, if you want links on anything specific that i referred to please let me know, i would be glad to oblige. More to come shortly.

[Thia]

Living - a couple of your links didn't work (Harris for one)...but maybe it's my connection.

Also, listing David Duke as a 'source'....

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Thia

Also, listing David Duke as a 'source'....

Yeah, that's not gonna help your cause....:chuckle:

[LivingDeadDoll]

Real quick before the kids get home from school i have to take a second to say this...When i started commenting my main objective was to point out that we are VERY DIFFERENT and that it just so happens in the researching i have done and with personal experiences that alot of theses differences in black and white fall into a negative category for the black peoples. I do not "hate" black people and i cannot help it if my personal experiences have given me a sort of "negative attitude" toward the matter as a whole. I completely acknowledge that there are many black people in the world who have contributed much to society and who are good people. I don't want anything i say on this subject to make anyone think that i am some kind of "ariyan minded nazi kkk looney". And i understand that in some cases black people do get treated in an unjust manner. and because of this stigmatism that surrounds thier race it is harder for the ones who are good people to succeed. I just wanted everyone to know that, i'm sorry if i am coming off like i hate all black people or something, i just am stating facts that i have gathered and if it they are incorrect, correct me.

[Granite]

You might say you don't hate them but using Duke to get your information certainly gives a certain impression.

[LivingDeadDoll]

Laugh if you will, (and i'm sure you will) but i don't even know who that is, or atleast i don't recall offhand, so using this person really doesn't mean a thing.

[The Berean]

disregard...

[Thia]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

Laugh if you will, (and i'm sure you will) but i don't even know who that is, or atleast i don't recall offhand, so using this person really doesn't mean a thing.

Well, here you go: http://www.davidduke.org/

He's a member of the White Supremes.

[The Berean]

never mind

[LivingDeadDoll]

another disclaimer:

as i have said before, if anyone thinks i am misinformed or just plain wrong and you can back up with evidence why you feel that way or you think you can explain it to me so that i might think differently, please do. Like i also said before, a lot of the things i say in here are questions or statements that are made to help me better understand what it is i am trying to figure out. i'm young, i'm not very current on many issues and i am trying to learn new things and i want people to debate with me so that i will be put to the test on my own views. My mind IS subject to change in certain areas. i am here to learn.

[Four O'Clock]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

Laugh if you will, (and i'm sure you will) but i don't even know who that is, or atleast i don't recall offhand, so using this person really doesn't mean a thing.

Then you should do a search on Duke's history to realize how seriously you just shot your "credibility" in the foot. :eek:

I didn't see anything significant in your other links tho I might read that fish and wildlife piece in the State of Illinois page.

And finally, your first link shows the disporportionate incarceration rates among whites, blacks, and hispanic. The ONLY issue of color relevant in that link is GREEN as in economic realities. Lower income masses commit more crimes. Plain and simple. Its not black or white or brown its GREEN.

[LivingDeadDoll]

Originally posted by Thia

Well, here you go: http://www.davidduke.org/

He's a member of the White Supremes.

okie dokie then, i am SO not going there, just pretend i never added that particular link..

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by wickwoman

Dear Billwald:

I think you should consider the fact that black people were selectively "bred" in the United States and intelligence was not a trait that slave owners normally wanted. They wanted women who could give birth to lots of new slaves, and men with very brawny bodies who could do heavy lifting and hard work.

So, coupled with the fact that, compared to immigrants, black people were forced to come here and, when the finally gained freedom they went from being in the minus column economically speaking to having nothing, enduring many many years of discrimination, coupled with mere genetic problems inherent in a race that has been bred specifically for the purposes I listed above, I think you could cut them a little slack.

And, if you do believe that black people are less intelligent, and therefore poor and a burden on society, it seems you would be more than willing for there to be a Negro College fund so they could get educated and off the public dime.

As a lifetime resident of the south I notice that black people who live in northern states and from other parts of the country, are very different from many of the ancestors of slaves that we have living here. That for one, should speak to the problems of breeding a race of people as if they were animals. And, you should be wanting to lend a hand to overcome whatever "bad karma" we've sewn. And, in my opinion there's plenty of bad karma for white people to overcome related to past and current treatment of black people.

Dear Wickwoman:

I agree with what you said and would add that, so often we are trying to be politcally correct and pretend there are no differences, however, to ignore them is to leave problems unsolved. And the best way to approach a problem is honestly. And there is an actual problem.

(Don't mind me, I just hate being ignored.) :D

[billwald]

Culture is learned, not inhereted.

It is my theory that we are now living in a new world where NONE of the old culture matters. I predict that in another 40 years that the vast majority will be "mixed" race. People with high intelligence and ambition will marry people with high intelligence and ambition. They will form the new ruling class. People with low intelligence and low ambition will form the grunt class.

50 years ago Eric Hoffer predicted the "Negrofication" of America and that is exactly what has happened. The low class whites have fused with the low class blacks to form the grunt culture which is satisfied with cheap beer and the sports channel.

[Granite]

Well, what's exactly wrong with that?

[wickwoman]

Dear Billwald:

IF this new class you speak of is truly intelligent, they will be treating all human beings with respect, regardless of their intelligence and will have none of this "grunt" class that you speak of. All human beings, regardless of genetics, deserve the oportunity to get a leg up.

You said in the first sentence that culture is inherited then later, that intelligence was passed genetically. The problems you spoke of were related to genetics, not culture. Culture is the outgrowth of intellect for that matter.

It appears you want to be insulting by saying certain humans are stupid beyond their control, yet in the next breath that they're being stupid and lazy by choice and just to bother you. Which is it?

[Granite]

Bill, you know any black folks personally?

[Rydo]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

...i just am stating facts that i have gathered and if it they are incorrect, correct me.
I believe I posted a rather large post in response to yours, yet you seem to have ignored it.

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

Laugh if you will, (and i'm sure you will) but i don't even know who that is, or atleast i don't recall offhand, so using this person really doesn't mean a thing.
If you don't know from whom or where you get your information; or the source of your information "really doesn't mean a thing," then how on earth can you or anyone else verify its credibility?

Just as anyone can post bogus information, anyone can post bogus source links. I was looking for more ".edu" or other such respectable sources. Obviously posting material from a white supremacist will subjectively support your claims.

[Rydo]

Originally posted by billwald

Culture is learned, not inhereted.
True.

Originally posted by billwald

It is my theory that we are now living in a new world where NONE of the old culture matters.
Hmm... I'm having a little more difficulty with this one. I contend that who we are is in large part due to who we were. Traditional culture, or "old culture," as you put it, does matter. It defined people then, and through cultural syncretism and hybridity, it will continue to define people today and 1,000 years from now.

Originally posted by billwald

I predict that in another 40 years that the vast majority will be "mixed" race.
What would be wrong with that? Ever heard of the term "Creole"?

[LivingDeadDoll]

Originally posted by Rydo

I believe I posted a rather large post in response to yours, yet you seem to have ignored it.


If you don't know from whom or where you get your information; or the source of your information "really doesn't mean a thing," then how on earth can you or anyone else verify its credibility?

Just as anyone can post bogus information, anyone can post bogus source links. I was looking for more ".edu" or other such respectable sources. Obviously posting material from a white supremacist will subjectively support your claims.
i apologize if you feel that i ignored you, i can assure you i merely overlooked your post as i am an extremely busy person. I have decided to stop "drive-by" posting though and in the future will only be commenting when i have the time to devote to such. I will go back and read your post and i will respond. As for my source links, that too was done in haste, my apologies.

[billwald]

Yes, I had a black high school kid living with us for 2 years because he was a friend of my kid's and needed a place to stay. Worked with and around and for black people for 30 years.

Nothing wrong with the comming "mixed" population. It will be a good thing!

"IF this new class you speak of is truly intelligent, they will be treating all human beings with respect, regardless of their intelligence and will have none of this "grunt" class that you speak of."

Everyone will be a leader? How will that work? The nature of poverty in the civilized post-industrial nations has changed. The poor people have the same things as the rich people, only of lesser quality and they have to stand in line to get them.

[LivingDeadDoll]

Originally posted by Rydo

Actually, recent studies show that "putting differences aside," or "ignoring differences" is exactly what minority groups don't want. They don't want whites claiming to be "color blind," they are black (or of another race) and want to be seen as such. They want their differences understood and respected, not ignored or influenced to be "more white."


First, I'd like to see support for such claims -- some links would be nice. Second, why are those differences necessarily bad? I would think it's fascinating, not disturbing, that our bodies are different. We are different, and that's the point. We should embrace those differences, not try to change or ignore them.


Links please? Anyone can spout off "information" about "studies." People who earn a lower income generally leave a lower tip. More than that, people from different cultures leave different tips. Europeans generally leave a lower tip than Americans. Can we then, according to your logic, say the same thing about Europeans? Nope.


No, you think about this: who created the IQ test? Alfred Binet, a white Frenchman, created the first IQ test. It was created to measure what white people viewed as a standard of intelligence.

The same thing goes for what you said about jobs. A lot of time, "job training," in terms of management-type positions, are modeled after the white businessman. People -- regardless of race, ethnicity, and gender -- are trained by corporate America to be more like corporate America. White businessmen. Let's all think alike, then we'll start moving places, right?


What is so terrible about this? Africans are a drumming people, they are a dancing people. When they were brought over as slaves, their drums were taken away, but that didn't stop them from drumming. They clapped, they sang in rhymic beats, they stomped, and they danced.

The fact is, whites systematically destroyed traditional African culture in America. Since slaves in North America were generally treated better than slaves in the Caribbean, they generally lived longer -- long enough to reproduce. Since slaves reproduced slaves right here in America, a large influx of slaves was not necessary to keep the population. This severed the ties between slaves and their African home. They didn't have more and more slaves coming over to bring fresh reminders of tradition.

Furthermore, whites were afraid that allowing Africans to enjoy their culture would give them a common foundation on which to rebel. Whites consciously divided up the different cultures -- slaves on a single plantation were often from various different cultures, speaking different languages, dialects, having different traditions and beliefs... this was done on purpose. Whites didn't want blacks communicating. whites were afraid that allowing Africans to enjoy their culture would give them a common foundation on which to rebel

I think you're missing the point, and I think you would benefit greatly from an anthropology course that studies the slave trade and it's subsequent effect on contemporary cultures, because you are gravely mistaken in many ways, some of which I have shown above.

You say that they want their differences to be understood, well i understand them, and i have to say that these differences in most cases are not positive. And that's my opinion, yours may differ and that's fine, maybe you have more information than i do.

As for your links i will address those in a post following this one.

As for people leaving tips according to their income, if they were more "job oriented" or better educated, then maybe they would have a higher income.

So a white man created the IQ test, i am not sure why that really matters, the fact is, there is an IQ test and a greater percentage of black people do poorly on it compared to white people. And managerial positions being modeled for the white man? where is YOUR link? I would think that it would not be modeled after anything except a person that could perform the job.

About the drumming and clapping, we're not in Africa, i'm not talking about tribesman. I'm talking about Americans. Maybe we live in two very different parts of the country, and maybe your neighborhood is a good one, but where i live a loud gang of black people stomping around with guns in the back of their pants can be a bit of a situation.

As for your talk of slaves, i am not talking about slaves. Like i said i am talking about people in the here and now. Did you forget, the slavery thing is over now. And if after all these years black people are STILL opressed because of slavery then i think my point is proven without even saying a word. Give me a break, the slavery thing is a crutch.

And i don't need a course in anything to be able to open my eyes and absorb the information around me and come to a logical conclusion based on that information. And what i have gathered in my lifetime must be very different from what you have seen in yours.

As i said, i will have those links in a few minutes considering that the homefront allows.

[Rydo]

Everything I said was more focused on an explanation of why they are as they are; I was not necessarily claiming that I saw things differently in the here and now.

[LivingDeadDoll]

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=19195

http://psa-rising.com/med/african-am/raceAR92003.shtml

http://www.cbcrp.org/research/PageGrant.asp?grant_id=3807

http://depts.washington.edu/bonebio/bonAbout/race.html

http://hyper.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/43/6/1182

http://industries.bnet.com/abstract.aspx?cid=257&docid=121383

if i missed something of particualr interest to you let me know, OR if you don't believe my source to be credible, let me know, there are many many more on the subject.

[Vision]

I have to say that as an African American female, this post is very interesting.

Living Dead Doll- I'm not really sue how your posts are supposed to make me feel. I do agree with part of what you're saying. Black folks can be ghetto (loud and annoying at times). And I think most blacks that read your posts will think you're racist because you say what you say, i don't think so. But IQ tests? You could have flunked 10th grade 50 times and still have more common sense than the dude who went to harvard and has a masters degree in economics or medecine and is finding a cure for cancer. Iq tests don't say jack.

The whole bit that Rydo said, i agree with. The black culture has had a lot of mountains to climb over the time that we were brought to America. From slavery to the KKK to plessy vs. Ferguson to Brown vs. the Board of Education, Martin Luther King, Malcom X, Jesse Jackson (although i think he is one of the dumbest smart black people alive) We have struggled, overcome, and put ourselves in holes.

Affirmative action, government programs blah blah blah (bily bob was right) The democratic party puts is back in dependance on the government so we can never reach our full potential. But that's a different topic all together.

Anyways, the reason we don't really score that well on aptitude tests is because we are an oral people. When we were brought here, we didn't learn to write, so we had to keep ourselves up through talking.

I can tell you for a fact that black people can talk for hours superbly but ask them to write their ideas down, and they can't do it. Not the case for me, but a lot of folks i know.

BAsically, we have contributed so many things to American society, countless things. But we still have a lot of htings to work out amongst ourselves, and with the white race. Forgiveness, a lot of talking to do, and connection. peace overall. it's gonna take a long time, but it's worth the time. Mos def

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Vision

I have to say that as an African American female, this post is very interesting.

Ahhh, thank you for joining our discussion.


Living Dead Doll- I'm not really sue how your posts are supposed to make me feel.

My advice would be to leave your feelings at the door before you enter this discussion [or any other discussion on a message board].

I do agree with part of what you're saying. Black folks can be ghetto (loud and annoying at times). And I think most blacks that read your posts will think you're racist because you say what you say, i don't think so. But IQ tests? You could have flunked 10th grade 50 times and still have more common sense than the dude who went to harvard and has a masters degree in economics or medecine and is finding a cure for cancer. Iq tests don't say jack.

Maybe not, but the guy who graduated Harvard is destined to earn a good living. Street smarts don't come with the same guarantee.


The whole bit that Rydo said, i agree with. The black culture has had a lot of mountains to climb over the time that we were brought to America. From slavery to the KKK to plessy vs. Ferguson to Brown vs. the Board of Education, Martin Luther King, Malcom X, Jesse Jackson (although i think he is one of the dumbest smart black people alive) We have struggled, overcome, and put ourselves in holes.

Affirmative action, government programs blah blah blah (bily bob was right) The democratic party puts is back in dependance on the government so we can never reach our full potential. But that's a different topic all together.

I think it is pertinent to this discussion.



Anyways, the reason we don't really score that well on aptitude tests is because we are an oral people. When we were brought here, we didn't learn to write, so we had to keep ourselves up through talking.

That was 200 years ago, are you saying your people are unable to adapt?



I can tell you for a fact that black people can talk for hours superbly but ask them to write their ideas down, and they can't do it. Not the case for me, but a lot of folks i know.


If it isn't the case for you, then doesn't it seem likely that it isn't a racial problem?

[Greywolf]

As for the differences between "black people", "white people", "asian people", etc... I think that many of the differences between different races are cultural in origin.

I'm in a lot of honors and AP classes, and just about every one of these classes is about 15-25% asian, even though they only make up about 2% of the student body. On the other hand I have only seen one black kid in any of these classes, and black kids represent about 4-5% of the student body at my school. Another thing I've noticed is the attitude of these students is their attitudes towards their scholastic pursuits. As I walk through the halls, I hear black kids congratulating each other on getting straight C's in regular classes. On the other hand, I don't think that a week has gone by where I haven't heard some horror story or the other from one of my asian friends about how their parents chewed them out for getting a 90% or similar grade on a test in an honors class. On the other hand, (I'm running out of hands here) I've noticed that there seems to be a large amount of emphasis on athletics among the black students that I've spoken with, and I've noticed that most of the sports teams at our school are about 30% black. (Note, I am not claiming that all black people are jocks, and that all asian people are nerds. This is also based on just the people that I know, so if the conclusion is valid, I don't know, but that is just what I've seen.)

I do think that the culture we grow up in does greatly affect how we turn out, but something that I can't emphasize enough is that we as people are not limited as to what we can do with our lives by our race or even our culture. Ultimately, we are all individuals, and all responsible for our own actions. We are not defined by our culture or race, but rather what we choose do with ourselves. Not all black people are the same, not all asian people are the same, and not all white people are the same, etc. To condemn and individual based on the actions of people who happen to have the same skin color as him is just ignorant.


A side note about the IQ tests. I was reading about IQ tests the other day and the book mentioned that how the test is worded can make a huge difference in how the taker scores. As an example it cited how white children did fine on a test question worded "Circle the apple that is whole", while black children generally had trouble with the question. However, when the question was worded "Circle the apple that is all there.", there was no difference in performance. Food for thought.

[BillyBob]

I don't like apples.

[LivingDeadDoll]

Firstly, Vision, my posts are not meant to make you feel any particular way. I am just stating some information that i have come across that has been relayed to me as factual. As for me being racist, i guess that would depend on how you defined the word. Do i think poorly of all other races aside from my own? No. Do i think that anyone who is not my race is automatically deemed inferior to me? No. Do i avoid association with others of a different race? No. BUT Do i think that in particular the black race has a few more downfalls than the white race? Yes i have to say that i do. And i am sorry that there are so many uneducated ignorant black people out there that use their ancestory as a crutch to get something for nothing. I am quite sure that makes it doubly hard for those who are applying themselves. I think that is truly sad.

As for IQ tests, i think there would be controversy over that no matter who made the test or what it was originally intended for unless it was handed down by God himself. Personally i think that anyone that argues about how it is administered or who made it is only making excuses. The majority as a whole seems to have no problem with the test and it is accepted enough that we all know quite well what it is and where it came from.

As for what Rydo said, i am not arguing with SOME of what he said it's just that i am more focused on the present. I am not concerned with WHY things came to be in this matter becasue the existing problem is big enough that i would not want to waste my energies on worrying about the past (in this case.) But that does not mean i am not aware of WHY things came to be so.

And about black peoples contributions to society, maybe i was not clear before. I fully acknowledge that black people contribute many things to society, but they are things like sports, music, entertainment, and there is nothing wrong with that. (I probably have more rap music on my cpu than anything else) what i meant was that the particular things that they contribute are not things that are focused on pushing our society forward and making our country a better place. And once again, i'm not belittling anyone in saying that, i am just stating what i have observed.

Thank you for your comments and for responding to them in the manner that you did. Blessings -
:)

[Granite]

Why should the talents of a particular group or individual be focused on advancing their nation?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by billwald
"IF this new class you speak of is truly intelligent, they will be treating all human beings with respect, regardless of their intelligence and will have none of this "grunt" class that you speak of."

Everyone will be a leader? How will that work? The nature of poverty in the civilized post-industrial nations has changed. The poor people have the same things as the rich people, only of lesser quality and they have to stand in line to get them.

If there were a superior race, they would be superior both intelectually and spiritually. That means, that they would be sure that the poor and ignorant had what they needed - information and sustenance. All men and women would be treated with the equal respect and dignity they deserved. There would be no enslaved races because the "superiors" would not allow such a thing to happen. Certainly, some would serve others, and some would be richer or poorer, but there would be no "inferiors" only people who were different, with different priorities. And certainly wealth is not just an outgrowth of intellect, it is also a personal choice of a person who has made it a priority. A person can choose to live a simplier lifestyle, regardless of intellect. Finally, material wealth is not the ultimate goal. So I do not equate intellect or enlightenment with wealth.

[Rydo]

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll

BUT Do i think that in particular the black race has a few more downfalls than the white race? Yes i have to say that i do. And i am sorry that there are so many uneducated ignorant black people out there that use their ancestory as a crutch to get something for nothing.
Have you ever heard of "White Collar" crime? I suggest possibly taking a look at the figures presented by the FBI, at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/whitecollarforweb.pdf -- it is interesting to note the dramatic negative effects white collar crime actually has on our economic well-being, since, according to you, blacks are more detrimental to the progress of our economy than other groups.

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll
The majority as a whole seems to have no problem with the test and it is accepted enough that we all know quite well what it is and where it came from.
I would argue the opposite. Taking the IQ test is not a prerequisite to attend college or university, or any other institutions of higher education. Therefore, I would say that most "intellectuals" or individuals involved with "academia" do not lend the IQ test much credibility as an actual measure of intelligence.

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll
As for what Rydo said, i am not arguing with SOME of what he said it's just that i am more focused on the present. I am not concerned with WHY things came to be in this matter becasue the existing problem is big enough that i would not want to waste my energies on worrying about the past (in this case.) But that does not mean i am not aware of WHY things came to be so.
Don't you think properly understanding why things are the way they are is necessarily important when attempting to find solutions to the "problems"?

Originally posted by LivingDeadDoll
And about black peoples contributions to society, maybe i was not clear before. I fully acknowledge that black people contribute many things to society, but they are things like sports, music, entertainment, and there is nothing wrong with that. (I probably have more rap music on my cpu than anything else) what i meant was that the particular things that they contribute are not things that are focused on pushing our society forward and making our country a better place. And once again, i'm not belittling anyone in saying that, i am just stating what i have observed.
That is completely contradictory. Entertainment, including: sports, music, dance, theater etc., is an enormous economic industry, which is very influential in "pushing our society forward." People earn higher incomes every year; our country has produced more goods and services than the year before every year for about 70 years (meaning our real Gross Domestic Product increases every year), and if you think the entertainment industry does not have a roll in that economic success you are being naive.

Furthermore, the entertainment industry is not the only industry heavily influenced by black people. I argue that many industries that are crucial to this country's economic progress and success are comprised of many different races and cultures (whites, blacks, Asians, etc.).

[billwald]

"That means, that they would be sure that the poor and ignorant had what they needed - information and sustenance."

The nature of poverty has changed. Our "poor" people are now dying of overweight. Because they don't have access to raw veggies? No, because they prefer to buy pre cooked food.

Poor people have all the same sorts of stuff that rich people do. The difference is that poor people have lowe quality stuff and have to stand in line to get it.

The visable "street people" should be institutionalize but the Supremes have decided they have a right to be crazy in public and sleep under a bridge.

[Granite]

Who's gonna foot the bill for the institutionalization, and since when are all homeless people by definition crazy?

[Chileice]

Originally posted by Vision


Anyways, the reason we don't really score that well on aptitude tests is because we are an oral people. When we were brought here, we didn't learn to write, so we had to keep ourselves up through talking.

I can tell you for a fact that black people can talk for hours superbly but ask them to write their ideas down, and they can't do it. Not the case for me, but a lot of folks i know.



Hey, thanks for the post. I have worked overseas for a good part of my life and it took me a long time to realize what you are saying about oral people is true. Some of the most intelligent people I know couldn't pass a college entrance exam but they could verbally express ideas that I had struggled with for years. I finally realized that is what my brother was. He was a solid "C" student. I was almost a straight "A" student. I could pass tests and regurgitate information with the best of them. He couldn't. But 3 years after doing an audit, he could recall every detail of to you in fine detail. He could express himself verbally and became controller of large corporation in spite of not being able to do well on standardized tests.

Blacks who came to America as slaves were forced to be oral learners and that was passed down because they were never afforded the opportunities to become systemitized rote learners as the white kids were. Thanks again for the post.

[Chileice]

Originally posted by billwald

Culture is learned, not inhereted.

It is my theory that we are now living in a new world where NONE of the old culture matters. I predict that in another 40 years that the vast majority will be "mixed" race. People with high intelligence and ambition will marry people with high intelligence and ambition. They will form the new ruling class. People with low intelligence and low ambition will form the grunt class.

50 years ago Eric Hoffer predicted the "Negrofication" of America and that is exactly what has happened. The low class whites have fused with the low class blacks to form the grunt culture which is satisfied with cheap beer and the sports channel.

What you will find is that the elites will also fall eventually. Elites don't wear well with the people they feel superior to. So after a while of being the "grunts", the grunts will throw off their oppressors and rule. Mongrels always seem to beat out the pure-breds. And I think that is for the benefit of the species. Go Grunts!!:jump: :bannana: :thumb:

[Granite]

:thumb:

[PureX]

Whooo-weeee! We got all kinds of prejudicial worms out of their cans on this thread.

It's interesting, all this animosity toward the I.Q. tests and "accademia" in general. I suspect that I.Q. tests have been designed to test only certain kinds of thought processes and that they are somewhat prejudicial that way. However, smart people are smart people and most people are not. It's the Bell Curve. There are very few really smart people, more pretty smart people, lots of relatively smart people, a whole lot of average people, lots of relatively dumb people, fewer pretty dumb people, and very few really dumb people.

The facts are that there are very likely a lot of people who are smarter than we are. They always have been smarter, and they always will be smarter. And we don't like it. We don't like them. We don't like them because they remind us that we aren't as smart as we like to imagine ourselves to be. And that's why we don't like I.Q. tests or "accademics" or "intellectuals" and it's why the red states don't like the blue states and why the neo-cons don't like the liberals and on and on ....

I really think America has been trading in it's racial prejudice for intellectual prejudice.

[Granite]

Anything to divide people against one another.

I'm glad I work in sales, where a piece of paper on the wall means absolutely jack. Prove yourself and nobody'll care if you only made it through high school.

[wickwoman]

There is a difference between knowledge and intelligence. Intelligence is the capacity to retain a large amount of knowledge and to understand complex issues beyond mere recitation. Knowledge is what you hope to get in school. But, a person who's never attended a school can be more intelligent than a person with a PhD.

As for Billwald's comment on slavery being "then" and this is "now." People do not just drop on this planet from outter space. There are years of genetics, culture, and prejudice to overcome. And it doesn't happen overnight.

My opinion about the smarts, the sorta smarts, the average Joe's, the dumbs, and the really dumbs is that it's the "really dumbs" who believe it's important to point out how smart they are and how dumb everyone else is. A truly intelligent person knows their own limitations, knows the limitations of others, but more importantly, understand the underlying reason that others are limited and has a plan for how to help correct it.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by PureX

Whooo-weeee! We got all kinds of prejudicial worms out of their cans on this thread.

It's interesting, all this animosity toward the I.Q. tests and "accademia" in general. I suspect that I.Q. tests have been designed to test only certain kinds of thought processes and that they are somewhat prejudicial that way. However, smart people are smart people and most people are not. It's the Bell Curve. There are very few really smart people, more pretty smart people, lots of relatively smart people, a whole lot of average people, lots of relatively dumb people, fewer pretty dumb people, and very few really dumb people.

The facts are that there are very likely a lot of people who are smarter than we are. They always have been smarter, and they always will be smarter. And we don't like it. We don't like them. We don't like them because they remind us that we aren't as smart as we like to imagine ourselves to be. And that's why we don't like I.Q. tests or "accademics" or "intellectuals" and it's why the red states don't like the blue states and why the neo-cons don't like the liberals and on and on ....

I really think America has been trading in it's racial prejudice for intellectual prejudice.


:darwinsm:

[billwald]

"Blacks who came to America as slaves were forced to be oral learners and that was passed down. . . ."

If this is a learned ability that is passed down, OK. If it is claimed to be a genetic difference then I have a problem with it.

[Crow]

It has certain a Lamarckian ring to it, doesn't it?

[Chileice]

Originally posted by billwald

"Blacks who came to America as slaves were forced to be oral learners and that was passed down. . . ."

If this is a learned ability that is passed down, OK. If it is claimed to be a genetic difference then I have a problem with it.

I don't suppose it is exactly "genetic" but it is cultural. And in a sense, cultural values are "bred" into people, through the very teachings and structure of the cultures in which they live.

[Frank Ernest]

Originally posted by billwald

"Blacks who came to America as slaves were forced to be oral learners and that was passed down. . . ."
One would be hard-pressed to explain the invention of written language under that circumstance.

[BillyBob]

Blacks will claim that they invented writing. [They may have]

[Chileice]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

One would be hard-pressed to explain the invention of written language under that circumstance.

You might want to do some study on orality and oral learning. Here is a website from a Christian perspective:
http://www.newwway.org/
where you might get a better understanding of what we are talking about. It doesn't mean a person is necessarily illiterate. What it means is that they prefer to get and transmit information orally. Most people in the world, in fact are oral learners. That is why television has been phenomenally successful.

In fact, it probably was a a small minority of people that felt the need to express themselves in some written form. As far as we know a few Sumerians were the first to figure out how to do that with some symbols that we call letters. Others expressed themselves earlier, like the cave painters at Altamira. But, by and large most people now and throughout history have prefered to be listened to rather than be read.

It is not a question of intelligence but a question of learning style or sometimes a lack of opportunity to learn in written form.

[billwald]

First, far as I know, no black African culture ever had a written language.

Second, yes, it is culture. It is my thesis that "black" culture is now identical to "white trash" (Okie, whatever) culture and does not prepare one for leadership in a post industrial society. 50 years ago Socialist Michael Harrington described the problem in terms of "event horizon," the inability to plan ahead.

After working and living around poor people for 35 years, I have concluded that in the USofA their problem is not a lack of cash money but the inability to handle cash money and credit.

For example, one never sees a group of the poor and oppressed without half of them smoking factory made ciggy butts. If I was a nicotine addict I would learn to roll my own and save $3/pack.

When I mention this to poor people the universal response is "I don't like the taste." I have heard a wino complain about vintage. Far as I'm concerned, smoking is a habit, not an addiction. I occasionally smoke a pipe at home but not on vacation. It is an amusement. It harasses fanatics.

[Chileice]

Originally posted by billwald

First, far as I know, no black African culture ever had a written language.

Second, yes, it is culture. It is my thesis that "black" culture is now identical to "white trash" (Okie, whatever) culture and does not prepare one for leadership in a post industrial society. 50 years ago Socialist Michael Harrington described the problem in terms of "event horizon," the inability to plan ahead.

After working and living around poor people for 35 years, I have concluded that in the USofA their problem is not a lack of cash money but the inability to handle cash money and credit.

For example, one never sees a group of the poor and oppressed without half of them smoking factory made ciggy butts. If I was a nicotine addict I would learn to roll my own and save $3/pack.

When I mention this to poor people the universal response is "I don't like the taste." I have heard a wino complain about vintage. Far as I'm concerned, smoking is a habit, not an addiction. I occasionally smoke a pipe at home but not on vacation. It is an amusement. It harasses fanatics.

Your prejudices are obviously deep-seated and beyond the scope of this forum to deal with. You have judged the world from your limited experience and have developed your own view of the world in which you have generalized everyone into convenient boxes in which they can be categorized and controlled (at least in your mind). I hope your vision will someday be expanded and your heart will be opened to the point where your prejudices can be overcome.

[Granite]

I'm with Chileice on this one. Look, bill, you can take the good with the bad, but if all you're doing is spending time in the muck, it kinda distorts your perspective.

People are different. Cultures are different. Races are different. But differences have nothing to do with inferiority, and they certainly don't have anything to do with superiority, either.

I suspect you, Living Dead Doll, and others here are a little hesitant to say what you REALLY think, but I've noticed in the past that this is often the case with people afraid they might get run out on a rail if they started spouting off what they held in their heart of hearts.

P.S. Why, I hafta ask, is it significant to you that a black African culture never developed a written language? (Assuming it's true, that is.)

[billwald]

Please explain my factual errors so that I can correct my thinking.

[Granite]

Factual errors based on your anecdotes, no. But I'm detecting an axe to grind...

[billwald]

No ax. I Thank God for being born in the greatest country and the best times that the working class has ever seen. I have everything that I wanted badly enough to work for and I am naturally lazy. I have a good pension that more than pays the bills. I have sufficient consumer goods. I have risen to, exceeded, and dropped back to my level of incompetance.

[Granite]

Non sequitar. None of this (except maybe obliquely) has anything to do with race. You've done well for yourself. Good for you. What's your beef?

[wickwoman]

Originally posted by billwald
I have everything that I wanted badly enough to work for and I am naturally lazy.

Perhaps this explains your apparent reluctance to give some deeper thought to the African American issue and what truly causes the alleged problems you brought up. For that matter, the solution. Or were you just griping for the sake of getting it off your chest?

[billwald]

I hate stupidity and bad reasoning. I hate people making excuses and complaining about stuff they have at least some control over. I hate bad music.

The "African issue" is that it only exists inside the minds of people who call themselves "African American" and the people who profit by keeping them on the bottom of the social/economic pile. For example, statistically, African American women have a higher average wage than white women. Why? Because white people hate them? Maybe because they are forced to work harder, longer, or smarter.

[Granite]

Originally posted by billwald

I hate stupidity and bad reasoning. I hate people making excuses and complaining about stuff they have at least some control over. I hate bad music.

The "African issue" is that it only exists inside the minds of people who call themselves "African American" and the people who profit by keeping them on the bottom of the social/economic pile. For example, statistically, African American women have a higher average wage than white women. Why? Because white people hate them? Maybe because they are forced to work harder, longer, or smarter.

"Bad music" truly being in the ear of the beholder, but hey. I get your point.

Some people who identify themselves as "African American" are freeloaders, and some are not.

[Thia]

Originally posted by granite1010

Some people who identify themselves as "African American" are freeloaders, and some are not.

What is this 'African American' stuff anyway? What if you're from Jamaica or the Dominican Republic? I mean, what a mouthful..."I'm Euro American, and here is my friend who is African American and his friend, an Asian American..." ad nauseum. Sorry to get off subject here, but the term gets on my last nerve.

[Granite]

As one wag--George Carlin?--has already noted, a Dutch-bred South African can be "African American" and still walk around blue-eyed and blonde. Why's this person any less of an "African American"?

[Thia]

Originally posted by granite1010

As one wag--George Carlin?--has already noted, a Dutch-bred South African can be "African American" and still walk around blue-eyed and blonde. Why's this person any less of an "African American"?

Exactly. I went to school with someone from the Domincan Republic who went ballistic when someone called her an African American. Can't we go back to black and white? Of course, that would bring up other issues, such as what to call Asians or Hispanic peoples...

Here's another note on the above: I lived in a one-horse, one-newspaper town in the Central Valley for awhile and the publisher of the paper was black. However, he used to upper case Black and lowercase white. Come on, now.

[Vision]

Ok from way back-(like 2 pages ago)

billiybob- i was just explaining why some blacks are the way they are. we don't all live in te same area, eat the same foods (completely) talk the same way, act the same way. i can't remember all of what you said, so i can't say all that i want.

And i wasn't saying that my race can't advance. that's stupid for anyone to think or suggest- you or me. i was explaining why hypothetically why some black people have tendencies. im not being specific, but general. obviously...

About the whole african american thing. I'm a hispanic-black- american. my mother is an african from panama (central america) so im more directly african than most that live in my neighborhood. but aside fom that, i think a more appropriate ID would be american of african descent.

Living dead doll- im not offended. you can think, that's what we were given a brain for. i can't remeber all of what you said, but im cool.

All in all- its one thing for yall to talk about race on the internet in some theology forum. But life application is what counts. You can write til your fingers come off, but if what you say isn't how you live, then you might as well not write anything. That goes to anyone of any color who stands for anything. we have to understand that we are different. Point blank.

[Thia]

Originally posted by Vision

About the whole african american thing. I'm a hispanic-black- american. my mother is an african from panama (central america) so im more directly african than most that live in my neighborhood. but aside fom that, i think a more appropriate ID would be american of african descent.


This is a good point. I'm English and Spanish, so who am I? What box do I check when filling out an application - 'other'? Americans are blends of so many races nowadays that it's rather futile to try and label them as anything other than 'American'. I think "American of ******descent" is a viable option.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by billwald

First, far as I know, no black African culture ever had a written language.


The Egyptians didn't have a written language? How about the Nubians?

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by granite1010

As one wag--George Carlin?--has already noted, a Dutch-bred South African can be "African American" and still walk around blue-eyed and blonde. Why's this person any less of an "African American"?

That is why the term 'Black' or 'Negro' is more appropriate. It is certainly more accurate.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Vision

Ok from way back-(like 2 pages ago)

billiybob- i was just explaining why some blacks are the way they are. we don't all live in te same area, eat the same foods (completely) talk the same way, act the same way. i can't remember all of what you said, so i can't say all that i want.

And i wasn't saying that my race can't advance. that's stupid for anyone to think or suggest- you or me. i was explaining why hypothetically why some black people have tendencies. im not being specific, but general. obviously...








Here was my post to you.

Originally posted by Vision

I have to say that as an African American female, this post is very interesting.

Ahhh, thank you for joining our discussion.


Living Dead Doll- I'm not really sue how your posts are supposed to make me feel.

My advice would be to leave your feelings at the door before you enter this discussion [or any other discussion on a message board].

I do agree with part of what you're saying. Black folks can be ghetto (loud and annoying at times). And I think most blacks that read your posts will think you're racist because you say what you say, i don't think so. But IQ tests? You could have flunked 10th grade 50 times and still have more common sense than the dude who went to harvard and has a masters degree in economics or medecine and is finding a cure for cancer. Iq tests don't say jack.

Maybe not, but the guy who graduated Harvard is destined to earn a good living. Street smarts don't come with the same guarantee.


The whole bit that Rydo said, i agree with. The black culture has had a lot of mountains to climb over the time that we were brought to America. From slavery to the KKK to plessy vs. Ferguson to Brown vs. the Board of Education, Martin Luther King, Malcom X, Jesse Jackson (although i think he is one of the dumbest smart black people alive) We have struggled, overcome, and put ourselves in holes.

Affirmative action, government programs blah blah blah (bily bob was right) The democratic party puts is back in dependance on the government so we can never reach our full potential. But that's a different topic all together.

I think it is pertinent to this discussion.



Anyways, the reason we don't really score that well on aptitude tests is because we are an oral people. When we were brought here, we didn't learn to write, so we had to keep ourselves up through talking.

That was 200 years ago, are you saying your people are unable to adapt?



I can tell you for a fact that black people can talk for hours superbly but ask them to write their ideas down, and they can't do it. Not the case for me, but a lot of folks i know.


If it isn't the case for you, then doesn't it seem likely that it isn't a racial problem?

[Granite]

Originally posted by BillyBob

That is why the term 'Black' or 'Negro' is more appropriate. It is certainly more accurate.

"Black" works for me. What the world is wrong with being "black"? I mean, get over yourself...I'm not an Irish-American. Hyphenated Americans aren't much of anything if not self-obsessed.

[PureX]

Originally posted by Thia This is a good point. I'm English and Spanish, so who am I? What box do I check when filling out an application - 'other'? Americans are blends of so many races nowadays that it's rather futile to try and label them as anything other than 'American'. I think "American of ******descent" is a viable option. This is america - you don't have to check that box. *smile*

[Thia]

Originally posted by PureX

This is america - you don't have to check that box. *smile*

Then why do they ask? Quotas? Statistics? I guess I'm the 'other' woman!

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Thia

Then why do they ask? Quotas? Statistics?

So the liberals can take the statistics, put some spin on them and legislate more racially biased laws.

[Thia]

Originally posted by BillyBob

So the liberals can take the statistics, put some spin on them and legislate more racially biased laws.

...which is racist in itself! So, if I marked the Hispanic box, would I get a great job, a new house and car, and/or have my education provided by the feds because I'm underrepresented? Wow!

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Thia

...which is racist in itself! So, if I marked the Hispanic box, would I get a great job, a new house and car, and/or have my education provided by the feds because I'm underrepresented? Wow!

Yep. I'm considering putting some shoe polish on my face and forcing JayHoover to hire me. Then, I can slack off all day and not bother doing my job because if he tries to fire me, I'll threaten to sue him on the grounds of racial discrimination! :mrt:

[Gerald]

Originally posted by BillyBob
Yep. I'm considering putting some shoe polish on my face and forcing JayHoover to hire me. Then, I can slack off all day and not bother doing my job because if he tries to fire me, I'll threaten to sue him on the grounds of racial discrimination! :mrt: Remember, you're able to bring if and only if you're able to appear in court.

And all that that implies... :chuckle:

(Aside: someone threatened to sue me once, and the above statement made him back off really quick...)

[BillyBob]

I don't scare as easily.

[wickwoman]

*

[Granite]

I find slim pickings in the east, as opposed to good old fashion midwestern girls...

[wickwoman]

In an abundance of caution I took that post back Granite. But, I guess you won't lynch me for it. ;)

[BillyBob]

Hmmm.... there seems to be something missing here... :think:

[Granite]

Originally posted by wickwoman

In an abundance of caution I took that post back Granite. But, I guess you won't lynch me for it. ;)

:D

Don'tcha worry!

[billwald]

>The Egyptians didn't have a written language?

Egyptians are white people.

> How about the Nubians?

Never seen a Nubian alphabet or writing.

[Granite]

Originally posted by billwald

>The Egyptians didn't have a written language?

Egyptians are white people.

> How about the Nubians?

Never seen a Nubian alphabet or writing.

Egyptians aren't WHITE, boss, try again. No more than the Ayatollah or Arafat was white.

[billwald]

http://pub40.bravenet.com/forum/3352229376/fetch/129270/

Wrong again.

[Granite]

Can I ask why this seems to be such an important point?

[billwald]

Hard to evolve <G> past an agragian culture without a written language.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by billwald

>The Egyptians didn't have a written language?

Egyptians are white people.

You gotta be kidding?



> How about the Nubians?

Never seen a Nubian alphabet or writing.

Here (http://www.homestead.com/wysinger/latestfindings.html)


But it is the Nubians' written language that he finds most intriguing. Borrowing 24 signs from Egyptian hieroglyphics and using them as an alphabet, they developed their own writing system, Grzymski says.

[Granite]

Originally posted by billwald

Hard to evolve <G> past an agragian culture without a written language.

Debatable...but even if true, so what?

[BillyBob]

I am confident that Ancient Egyptians were negros. :BillyBob:


The Land of Punt - Cradle of the Egyptian Race (http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/punt.html)

According to the Ancient Egyptians, the second Egyptian ruling ethnic/class's ancestral homeland was Punt (Somalia). They referred to this land as "Ta Nteru" ('Land of the gods'). To emphasize their Puntite origins, the Egyptians portrayed the Puntites in the exact same manner in which they portrayed themselves.
This new ruling ethnic/class called themselves "Mesnitu" ('Metalworkers/blacksmiths'), and was also referred to as "Shemsu Hor" ('Followers of Horus').
These Mesnitu had overthrown the original ruling ethnic/class, the Anu (those belonging to Osiris's ethnic group; and yes, Osiris was a real life personage), who had previously established its domination over all of Egypt through military conquest and political unification. Their place of origin was "Ta Seti" ('Land of the Bow') in the Sudan. Gradually tradition would identify both Somalia and the Sudan as "Ta Khent" ('Land of the Beginning' or 'Ancestral land').
The answers to the questions "Where did the Ancient Egyptians come from?" or "What race were the Ancient Egyptians?" have already been given centuries ago, by the Ancient Egyptians themselves.
It isn't a surprise, however, that such relevant information on Ancient Egypt by the Ancient