Hiring Practices

[BillyBob]

I posted this in the 'JayHoover' thread, but I am hoping for a broader discussion.


OK, let's try this from another perspective.

Jay, do you believe the government has the authority to tell private business owners who they can and cannot hire? [assuming that person is a legal resident]

If you believe they have that authority, do you agree that they should legislate accordingly?

You have already conceded that there are certain jobs which are less suited for women. You have also conceded that there are times when a business can use race as a determiner for hiring someone. If you already agree with these points, where then do you draw the line?

If I interview 10 people, all of whom have equal skills and credentials pertaining to the job opening, how do I determine which one of them I will hire? Remember, they will be a representative of my company.

What if one of them is an ex-con?

What if another has long, unkempt hair.

Another has poor English skills.

Another has body odor.

Another has a 'Kerry/Edwards' sticker on his truck.

Another seems nervous and won't look me in the eye when we talk.

Another drives a beat up truck.

Another listens to loud rap music in his truck.

Another talks too much.

Another is a veteran.

Three of them have a poor credit rating.

Four of them are single.

One of them is a weekend musician.

One is a Muslim.

Three of them are Christians.

One is a Jew.

Eight are Caucasian and two are Black.


Are any or all of these 'qualities' something I should consider when making my decision?

[Ninjashadow]

I know you are asking Jay Hoover, but can you please define what the job is. I think many of these answers depend on what kind of company I am hiring for.

[BillyBob]

The job opening is for a skilled tradesman working in homes and commercial jobsites.

[Ninjashadow]

What if one of them is an ex-con?

What was the ex-con in for? If it was theft, I probably wouldn't hire a thief due to the possibility of repeat offenses.

What if another has long, unkempt hair.

Assuming this person is qualified and the unkept hari wouldn't hurt business, yes I would hire him/her.

Another has poor English skills.

If you mean grammer, I don't think this is a big deal. As long as the person can do the job. Skilled labor doesn't require a vast knowledge of punctuation and sentence structure.

Another has body odor.

How bad is it? If it's bad enough to keep others from performing their jobs, I wouldn't hire this person.

Another has a 'Kerry/Edwards' sticker on his truck.

Again, assuming this person is qualified, yes I would hire him/her.

Another seems nervous and won't look me in the eye when we talk.

I'd have a thorough background check performed before hiring this person. If nothing came up and the person is qualified, yes I'd hire.

Another drives a beat up truck.

This wouldn't be a problem, especially for a skill labor job.

Another listens to loud rap music in his truck.
So?

Another talks too much.
Would this person cause problems or prevent others from performing their jobs.

Another is a veteran.

That's a plus.

Three of them have a poor credit rating.
How bad? Bad enough that they may want to steal?


Four of them are single. One of them is a weekend musician. One is a Muslim. Three of them are Christians. One is a Jew. Eight are Caucasian and two are Black.

So?

[BillyBob]

quote:
What if one of them is an ex-con?


What was the ex-con in for? If it was theft, I probably wouldn't hire a thief due to the possibility of repeat offenses.


What if it wasn't for theft?


quote:
What if another has long, unkempt hair.




Assuming this person is qualified and the unkept hari wouldn't hurt business, yes I would hire him/her.


Unkempt hair means that he doesn't care about his looks and he likely doesn't care about his work. I wouldn't want a slob representing my company.

He's out for sure.


quote:
Another has poor English skills.


If you mean grammer, I don't think this is a big deal. As long as the person can do the job. Skilled labor doesn't require a vast knowledge of punctuation and sentence structure.

It does me no good if my employees cannot effectively communicate with my customers when I'm not there.

He's out.



quote:
Another has body odor.


How bad is it? If it's bad enough to keep others from performing their jobs, I wouldn't hire this person.

Again, he represents my company. If he strinks, I stink.

He's out.



quote:
Another has a 'Kerry/Edwards' sticker on his truck.


Again, assuming this person is qualified, yes I would hire him/her.

This person will be parking his truck in the driveways of my customers, I don't want to have any political overtones associated with my company, especially liberal ones. I don't have political stickers of any kind on my truck, my employees are required to follow suit. If he agreed to remove the stickers from his truck, I probably still wouldn't hire him, I don't want any liberals working for me. [But I may be inclined to make an exception on this issue]

He's out.


quote:
Another seems nervous and won't look me in the eye when we talk.


I'd have a thorough background check performed before hiring this person. If nothing came up and the person is qualified, yes I'd hire.

He may simply be shy, but I cannot have a socially inept person working for me, customer relations is too important.

He's out.



quote:
Another drives a beat up truck.


This wouldn't be a problem, especially for a skill labor job.

My company charges premium prices for our work, a beat up truck in the driveway of a multi-million dollar house looks bad for me and it looks bad for the customer.

He's out.



quote:
Another listens to loud rap music in his truck.



So?

The last thing I need is an employee who pulls into the driveway of one of my customers with loud, obnoxious music playing. If he doesn't have a natural sense of propriety, he doesn't belong in my company.

He's out.



quote:
Another talks too much.


Would this person cause problems or prevent others from performing their jobs.

Not only will he be distracting the other employees, he will likely be engaging my customers unecessarily.

He's out.



quote:
Another is a veteran.



That's a plus.

I agree. He certainly gets extra consideration from me.



quote:
Three of them have a poor credit rating.


How bad? Bad enough that they may want to steal?

It would make me be cautious, but bad credit isn't enough of a reason for me to not hire them.




quote:
Four of them are single. One of them is a weekend musician. One is a Muslim. Three of them are Christians. One is a Jew. Eight are Caucasian and two are Black.




So?

Single men are less relaible than married men. I'd rather have a married employee.

Weekend musicians may need to leave early on Fridays and miss Mondays. I'd have to have further discussions with this person before hiring him.

Muslims have no place in my company.

Christians and Jews are fine, Ive employed both in the past and only Christians currently. I have no problem with atheists, assuming they meet all the other qualifications.

I probably wouldn't hire any blacks to work for me. Although I have in the past, I currently will not.

[Ninjashadow]

What if it wasn't for theft?

What is it for then?

Unkempt hair means that he doesn't care about his looks and he likely doesn't care about his work. I wouldn't want a slob representing my company.

By unkempt to you simply mean uncombed or do you mean dirty, nasty, and crawling with lice? I thought you meant the former, in which case it could have been a windy day.



It does me no good if my employees cannot effectively communicate with my customers when I'm not there. Ok, I thought you meant written, not verbal.


Again, he represents my company. If he strinks, I stink. Is this a problem that could be corrected? I mean what if he's one of the best people in the US with his skills?


This person will be parking his truck in the driveways of my customers, I don't want to have any political overtones associated with my company, especially liberal ones. I don't have political stickers of any kind on my truck, my employees are required to follow suit. If he agreed to remove the stickers from his truck, I probably still wouldn't hire him, I don't want any liberals working for me.

Well, that, of course, is your opinion. I don't agree with liberals, but if they can do the job, I'd hire them. As long as they didn't get into political discussions with the customers.


He may simply be shy, but I cannot have a socially inept person working for me, customer relations is too important.
I can understand where you are coming from, but people get nervous at interviews. I have before and I'm a perfectly capable person for what I have applied for.


My company charges premium prices for our work, a beat up truck in the driveway of a multi-million dollar house looks bad for me and it looks bad for the customer.
Maybe he needs the job to purchase a new truck. Perhaps that's all he can afford at this time.


Not only will he be distracting the other employees, he will likely be engaging my customers unecessarily
If that's the case, then I agree with you.

As for the last parts, I've known married men who are very unreliable and single men who you can count on for sure.
I'm not even going to get into a discussion about muslims. Jews and Christians are fine, so is rap music as long as it's not loud enough where a customer could here it and be offended.

[Imrahil]

I probably wouldn't hire any blacks to work for me. Although I have in the past, I currently will not.

Why's that?

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

What is it for then?

I dunno, he didn't say.



By unkempt to you simply mean uncombed or do you mean dirty, nasty, and crawling with lice? I thought you meant the former, in which case it could have been a windy day.

I mean perpetually sloppy.



Is this a problem that could be corrected? I mean what if he's one of the best people in the US with his skills?

How do you tell some guy at an interview that he stinks?




Well, that, of course, is your opinion. I don't agree with liberals, but if they can do the job, I'd hire them. As long as they didn't get into political discussions with the customers.

Yeah, I could go either way on this one, but I don't want any political stickers on the trucks.



I can understand where you are coming from, but people get nervous at interviews. I have before and I'm a perfectly capable person for what I have applied for.

Yes, this isn't necessarily a reason to totally exclude him from the position, but it's a mark against him. Out of ten guys, there may be a better candidate.



Maybe he needs the job to purchase a new truck. Perhaps that's all he can afford at this time.

Ah, but if he has the skills reqired for this job, there is no reason for him to drive a beat up truck unless there is something wrong in his life. A beat up truck is a HUGE red flag.




As for the last parts, I've known married men who are very unreliable and single men who you can count on for sure.

Yes, but married men have more responsibilities. It's not a guarantee, but it's worth consideration.

Of course, these applicant's are not necessarily restricted to just one of these and may have a combination of the traits I described.

[BillyBob]

By the way, the whole purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that the government has no business telling private business owners who they can and cannot hire. It is entirely up to the business owner to decide which employee best suits his needs.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by BillyBob
I probably wouldn't hire any blacks to work for me. Although I have in the past, I currently will not.



Originally posted by Imrahil

Why's that?


Well, first of all, I haven't met any black guys who have the skills I require. That's not to say they don't exist or they are incapable, but they don't seem to get into the trades that I am involved with.

Also, my business is in the South and my clientele is often wealthy southerners who may have a negative reaction to having a black man in their house. I'm not saying it's right, but I am smart enough to recognize it.

As I mentioned, I have employed black men in the past and even partnered up with one on a business venture. On another occassion, I opened my home to black employee who needed a place to live for a few months. I only mention this to demonstrate that my choices aren't racist in nature, rather they are founded in what I deem best for my company. I also would readily vote for a Black Senator or Representative if I thought he was the best candidate.

The whole point of this thread is to explore whether or not the government has a right to dictate to a private business owner who he can and cannot hire. I see no legal way for the government to dictate to me who I can hire, nor do I think they should ever have that authority.

[Ninjashadow]

I dunno, he didn't say.

I'm pretty sure that by law he is required to tell what his conviction was for, if he won't, he won't get the job.

I mean perpetually sloppy.

Then, no, I wouldn't hire him. I think you'd basically find that anywhere. That's why it is always suggested that you look nice for an interview.

How do you tell some guy at an interview that he stinks?

"Hey, you stink. You want the job, you need to take care of that." But that also goes with what I said above.


Ah, but if he has the skills reqired for this job, there is no reason for him to drive a beat up truck unless there is something wrong in his life. A beat up truck is a HUGE red flag.

I don't own a business, so I'll just have to trust you on this one. I think that there could be a reason, but I don't know what it could be.

Yes, but married men have more responsibilities. It's not a guarantee, but it's worth consideration.

I agree with you there, but it could be a mistake to just dismiss someone because of their marrital status.

[gimp]

billybob,

It's kind of interesting that you'd have turned away Albert Einstein.

[Ninjashadow]

I doubt Einstein could, or would, do skilled labor. Besides, why hire someone who isn't qualified for the job.

[gimp]

I doubt Einstein could, or would, do skilled labor. Besides, why hire someone who isn't qualified for the job.

That's not the point. The point is that in billybob's method of determining what a suitable employee is, or should be, he determines an employees suitability for hiring on mainly externals. He could have the best carpenter in the world try to work for him and he wouldn't hire him because the guy doesn't believe in spending a lot of money on a work truck. The guy may be someone who saves his money rather than giving it to the bank every month for show, supports his parents, is sending one of his younger siblings through college, or any one of many other valid reasons for not driving a nice truck. For that billybob wouldn't hire him.

Einstein had messy hair and didn't dress very well at all, yet he was one of the most brilliant men to ever live. If everyone made decisions the same way billybob does Einstein would never have become famous for he could have never found a job. The world would be a much poorer place for it.

billybob's an idiot who judges books by their covers and thinks the entire world does the same.

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by gimp

That's not the point. The point is that in billybob's method of determining what a suitable employee is, or should be, he determines an employees suitability for hiring on mainly externals. He could have the best carpenter in the world try to work for him and he wouldn't hire him because the guy doesn't believe in spending a lot of money on a work truck. The guy may be someone who saves his money rather than giving it to the bank every month for show, supports his parents, is sending one of his younger siblings through college, or any one of many other valid reasons for not driving a nice truck. For that billybob wouldn't hire him.

Einstein had messy hair and didn't dress very well at all, yet he was one of the most brilliant men to ever live. If everyone made decisions the same way billybob does Einstein would never have become famous for he could have never found a job. The world would be a much poorer place for it.

billybob's an idiot who judges books by their covers and thinks the entire world does the same.

Have you every applied for a job? If you did, did you try to dress nice or did you throw on a pair of jeans that you've worn for days on end? People are often not hired becuase of their looks. If the person looks ratty, generally the person won't be hired.

There's a big difference between Einstein and a skilled laborer. Einstein's genius was know from papers he delivered and speeches he gave. He didn't have to be interview to get his ideas published. There's a big difference between genius and skilled laborers. Einstein was not billed as a messy slob because of his noteriety and his genius. At worst he would have been, "a bit eccentric."

What I'm getting at is that appearence DOES play a roll in who gets a job and that pretty much goes for all businesses.

[Crow]

Originally posted by gimp

billybob,

It's kind of interesting that you'd have turned away Albert Einstein.

I would too if I were in BillyBob's business. Albert Einstein's talents did not lie in home repairs and remodeling.

If I'm on the customer end of the deal and BillyBob offers me the choice of an outstanding scientist, a world class skier, or an superbly skilled tilesetter to replace my bathroom floor, who do you think I'm going to pick?

Maybe you'd choose Albert to do your next surgery. I'd go with a surgen if I were in that boat.

[Frank Ernest]

From what BillyBob says he hires based on skill and appearance among other things. Both of these things are important to BillyBob's customers. In order to market his company and its services, BillyBob MUST do those things which are important and acceptable to his customers. That means unfettered hiring decisions - and firing decisions.

When government tries to dictate those business functions, one has unfair rules imposed upon him by someone who has no stake in the outcome. One is forced to hire the unqualified based on reasons totally external and irrelevant to the work needed and forced to reject the qualified for the same reasons.

Let me tell you a story. It's about a local commie who was converted to reality. Said local commie is an electrical engineer who was hired by an automotive company. His job was design and development. In his first six months, he did very, very well and was promoted to a supervisory position. During that six months, he was on salary. He complained continually about the unfair company. The company didn't hire enough blacks, women, homos, etc. After he was promoted, he was put under the company's profit-sharing plan. All of a sudden, he had a stake in the company's success or failure. All of a sudden he got very strict on hiring and firing. Do the job, fine. Don't do the job, you're out. All of a sudden it didn't matter about black, female, etc. What mattered was getting the job done right and being acceptable to the customer since, all of a sudden, his success was tied to the company's success.

Since his customers tour his facility every so often, he is very sensitive to his subordinates' appearance. His customer is not going to see slovenly, unkempt employees. Oh, by the way, he told his employees that political stickers on cars were unacceptable, no "beaters" in the parking lot. The two-beer lunch is out, along with other things he, all of a sudden, determined to be unacceptable for a company in that business.

Sure, he will hire a black, female, homo, etc., IF that person is qualified to do the work AND keeps their politics to themselves.

[Crow]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

From what BillyBob says he hires based on skill and appearance among other things. Both of these things are important to BillyBob's customers. In order to market his company and its services, BillyBob MUST do those things which are important and acceptable to his customers. That means unfettered hiring decisions - and firing decisions.


Appearace probably has a huge bearing on repeat business. If a contractor I hired sent in a crew of grimy, cursing, BO-plenty loudmouthed idiots with their pants hanging halfway off their butts to tile my kitchen floor, you can bet that I wouldn't call that guy back when I want my bathroom remodeled.

My father refused to rehire a man who was working on a footer for him one time because he smelled like booze, and cursed in front of us. (Not that we didn't hear the same words from my father when he worked on the cars. :chuckle: ) And the guy did excellent work at a good price.

Nobody expects construction workers to show up in business suits. But you do expect them to show up decent.

A guy in clean jeans and a clean t-shirt without ignorant sayings, or in a clean workshirt, looks like a professional in that business, and if he gets to work and does his job efficiently, then that's the kind of guy I want working on my house.

I don't want to open my doors to some Charles Manson type apparition.

[BillyBob]

Ah, the tee shirts, good point Crow! I don't have any said mandate, but I always wear plain tee shirts as do my guys. I have never had to say anything to them about, they just instinctively know. They get it, which is why they work for me and get paid well.

Your 'conversion' story was very good Frank, it shows the differnt mindset people have when they are merely an employee and when they have a stake in the company. I believe the best scenario is to get employees to feel as if they have a stake in the company, they will turn out better work. One way I do that is with praise, bonuses and lunches. I also explain what I want done and them leave them for a day. This gives them a sense of self reliance and they do better work than if I were to tell them every little move they should make. It forces them to think for themnselves and the job becomes a matter of pride for them.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by gimp

That's not the point. The point is that in billybob's method of determining what a suitable employee is, or should be, he determines an employees suitability for hiring on mainly externals. He could have the best carpenter in the world try to work for him and he wouldn't hire him because the guy doesn't believe in spending a lot of money on a work truck. The guy may be someone who saves his money rather than giving it to the bank every month for show, supports his parents, is sending one of his younger siblings through college, or any one of many other valid reasons for not driving a nice truck. For that billybob wouldn't hire him.

A beat up truck is unreliable, the guy will likely be calling me twics a month from the side of the highway to come rescue him. Also, beat up trucks leak oil all over the customers driveway. I have encountered this before, they are not very happy about it.



Einstein had messy hair and didn't dress very well at all, yet he was one of the most brilliant men to ever live. If everyone made decisions the same way billybob does Einstein would never have become famous for he could have never found a job. The world would be a much poorer place for it.

This has already been responded to a couple times, so I'll refrain. I will simply say that Einstein is one of my heros.



billybob's an idiot who judges books by their covers and thinks the entire world does the same.

I don't think you read my posts, that is not at all there is to it.

[Poly]

Originally posted by gimp


billybob's an idiot who judges books by their covers and thinks the entire world does the same.

I think you have a lot of nerve making such a comment.

When it comes to running a business, sometimes this is all you have to go on. How does the employer have time to find out whether or not a person really is how he appears to be at first impression? A person comes to apply at BillyBob's place of employment with raggedy dirty clothes, uncombed hair and poor language skills and BillyBob is supposed to hire him anyway and hope that his skills do not match his appearance. There's a lot riding on this. His family may have to suffer but gimp says hire him anyway. Are you willing to take responsibility for this gimp if this guy turns out to be a loser, costing the company money and causing BB's family to suffer because of it?

The person applying should care enough about getting hired and make sure the "cover of his book" matches his workskills if he really is cut out for the job.

[gimp]

I think you have a lot of nerve making such a comment.

I don't think I'm being any more nervy than a large number of posters on this site including you. I see you judging people and calling them names all the time. You're pretty much the pot calling the kettle black.

[gimp]

billybob,

I know a an extremely talented carpenter whom you wouldn't hire. You'd take one look at him and send him on his way. Why? Because the man has just recovered his health after several years of not being able to work. He'd show up in raggedy clothes for an interview because that's all he owns anymore. His credit report sucks because he's had no income for a long time and he had to declare bankruptcy, but he's as honest as the day is long. He also drives an old truck that's splattered with paint and is all dinged up from his years working construction when he's used his own vehicle for work. He's got three strikes against him in your eyes, but none of them really mean a thing.

You'd send him packing on appearances only and you'd lose a really valuable man. You're an idiot billybob, but the world's full of idiots just like you who judge books by their covers, who value appearance more than reality.

[servent101]

gimpYou'd send him packing on appearances only and you'd lose a really valuable man. You're an idiot billybob, but the world's full of idiots just like you who judge books by their covers, who value appearance more than reality.

What did billybob do to deserve this? - how do you know this about billybob? - have you judged him already by his cover?

With Christ's LOve

Servent101

[Poly]

Originally posted by gimp

I don't think I'm being any more nervy than a large number of posters on this site including you. I see you judging people and calling them names all the time. You're pretty much the pot calling the kettle black.

Too bad some people don't know what should and should not be judged.
I like how you dodged my questions so I'll ask them again.


Originally posted by Poly
How does the employer have time to find out whether or not a person really is how he appears to be at first impression? A person comes to apply at BillyBob's place of employment with raggedy dirty clothes, uncombed hair and poor language skills and BillyBob is supposed to hire him anyway and hope that his skills do not match his appearance. There's a lot riding on this. His family may have to suffer but gimp says hire him anyway. Are you willing to take responsibility for this gimp if this guy turns out to be a loser, costing the company money and causing BB's family to suffer because of it?

[gimp]

How does the employer have time to find out whether or not a person really is how he appears to be at first impression? A person comes to apply at BillyBob's place of employment with raggedy dirty clothes, uncombed hair and poor language skills and BillyBob is supposed to hire him anyway and hope that his skills do not match his appearance. There's a lot riding on this. His family may have to suffer but gimp says hire him anyway. Are you willing to take responsibility for this gimp if this guy turns out to be a loser, costing the company money and causing BB's family to suffer because of it?

LOL. Is that the best you can do? That's pathetic.

How's an employer to know if someone didn't just go downtown and have a makeover just for the interview? Just borrowed a really nice ride to impress at the interview? And has no intention of maintaining that image once employed? He's going to let his hair grow out, fail to maintain his appearance, etc.... Your point is pointless. It's just as I said, it's all appearances that really don't mean anything except to someone who judges strictly on appearances.

You're as big an idiot as billybob.

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by gimp

billybob,

I know a an extremely talented carpenter whom you wouldn't hire. You'd take one look at him and send him on his way. Why? Because the man has just recovered his health after several years of not being able to work. He'd show up in raggedy clothes for an interview because that's all he owns anymore. His credit report sucks because he's had no income for a long time and he had to declare bankruptcy, but he's as honest as the day is long. He also drives an old truck that's splattered with paint and is all dinged up from his years working construction when he's used his own vehicle for work. He's got three strikes against him in your eyes, but none of them really mean a thing.

You'd send him packing on appearances only and you'd lose a really valuable man. You're an idiot billybob, but the world's full of idiots just like you who judge books by their covers, who value appearance more than reality.

I think you're missing the point here, gimpy. BillyBob has stated that his business services high end clientele. If this raggy guy you are talking about would cause BillyBob to loose business and still have to pay the guy, what kind of businessman would he be? He'd end up loosing money two different ways.

[gimp]

I think you're missing the point here, gimpy. BillyBob has stated that his business services high end clientele.

billybob aint got a point and neither do you. I know many contractors, and several of them work with high-end clients exclusively. Not a one of them has stipulations as to what you may wear to work or drive to work, and not a one of them wouldn't hire a good man just because he's down on his luck and his financial situation shows it.

One guy I know, and I've known him for more than 30 years, who drives a beat up old Chevy Astro van around. He does high end finish work. He's successful, very successful. Why? Because of the quality of his work, because he is reasonably priced, and because does just exactly what he says he will do. He's always booked 4 to 6 months in advance. He doesn't subscribe to any of billybobs silly externals.

Another general contractor I know, one of the more successful contractor's I've ever known drove a battered old truck around. He did a lot of high end work too. Why? He got the work because of his reputation of being honest, doing good work, and finishing projects on time. He was busy when all the other contractors would be scratching for work.

It is whats on the inside that really counts. Anyone who hires contractors or employees for anything, any job, based heavily on appearances is an idiot. They may look successful for a time, but it will bite them in the end. Shallowness always makes its negative presence felt. It's a law of life that can't be ignored.

You guys are just dumb enough to fall for billybob's, and society's, stupidity in thinking that appearances are measures of success and worth.

I knew a millionaire, he's dead now, who used to run around in a battered old pickup. He used twine for a belt. This guy went into a Mercedes dealership wanting to buy a car. The first salesman he met told him to get lost, that he wouldn't waste his time showing a car to someone who so obviously couldn't afford it. The old guy just shrugged his shoulders and said, OK. He went to another dealer and the guy showed him the car, and let him take it for a test drive. He took him seriously. He sold a car for cash on the spot. The old man drove his new car to the other dealership and walked up that same salesman and asked him how he liked his new car that he'd just paid cash for at another dealer. Then he turned around and walked out.

That was a true story about a man that was friends with my father for many years. Appearances are very decieving, but billybob thinks they are a reliable way to judge the worth of people. billybob is an idiot and so are you when you buy into his thinking.

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by gimp

billybob aint got a point and neither do you. I know many contractors, and several of them work with high-end clients exclusively. Not a one of them has stipulations as to what you may wear to work or drive to work, and not a one of them wouldn't hire a good man just because he's down on his luck and his financial situation shows it.

One guy I know, and I've known him for more than 30 years, who drives a beat up old Chevy Astro van around. He does high end finish work. He's successful, very successful. Why? Because of the quality of his work, because he is reasonably priced, and because does just exactly what he says he will do. He's always booked 4 to 6 months in advance. He doesn't subscribe to any of billybobs silly externals.

Another general contractor I know, one of the more successful contractor's I've ever known drove a battered old truck around. He did a lot of high end work too. Why? He got the work because of his reputation of being honest, doing good work, and finishing projects on time. He was busy when all the other contractors would be scratching for work.

It is whats on the inside that really counts. Anyone who hires contractors or employees for anything, any job, based heavily on appearances is an idiot. They may look successful for a time, but it will bite them in the end. Shallowness always makes its negative presence felt. It's a law of life that can't be ignored.

You guys are just dumb enough to fall for billybob's, and society's, stupidity in thinking that appearances are measures of success and worth.

I knew a millionaire, he's dead now, who used to run around in a battered old pickup. He used twine for a belt. This guy went into a Mercedes dealership wanting to buy a car. The first salesman he met told him to get lost, that he wouldn't waste his time showing a car to someone who so obviously couldn't afford it. The old guy just shrugged his shoulders and said, OK. He went to another dealer and the guy showed him the car, and let him take it for a test drive. He took him seriously. He sold a car for cash on the spot. The old man drove his new car to the other dealership and walked up that same salesman and asked him how he liked his new car that he'd just paid cash for at another dealer. Then he turned around and walked out.

That was a true story about a man that was friends with my father for many years. Appearances are very decieving, but billybob thinks they are a reliable way to judge the worth of people. billybob is an idiot and so are you when you buy into his thinking.

I DO have a point and it's pretty easy to make up knowing people.

I don't appreciate you calling me an idiot because BillyBob happens to be right. What is he right about? He is right to run his business how he wants to. Beside, do you know BillyBob's clientele? Just because you know people who don't mind having a dirty, slobbish person in their house doesn't mean that the people that hire BillyBob's company don't either. They may judge BillyBob and his business on the looks and actions of his employees.

[ebenz47037]

It seems to me that what gimp needs to realize is that Billybob is the business owner. He has to do what he thinks is necessary to keep his business solvent. Maybe he doesn't hire everyone that gimp thinks he should. But, what does that matter. If you don't like who a business owner hires or doesn't hire, don't patronize that business.

Personally, my decision to hire or not hire Billybob to do some work for me would be base solely on recommendations/references, a report from the Better Business Bureau, and price vs. quality of work done. It doesn't matter to me who actually does the work as long as it's done at a decent price for decent quality.

[gimp]

I DO have a point and it's pretty easy to make up knowing people.

That's all you've got? Trying to say I don't actually know the people I've known for more than half my life? LOL . I said you and billybob's points are pointless and you've just proved.

How do you know good ol' billybob ain't makin' up his stories? You don't. You just don't want to accept the fact that the thinking you are indulging in is nothing but a fallacy. That makes you even more of an idiot.


A reproof enters deeper into a man of understanding than a hundred lashes into a self-confident fool

[billwald]

In a free country a business owner should be able to hire or not hire as he chooses. If he make a wrong decision he will lose economically.

A govt should hire according to some objective standard.

[Mr. 5020]

Originally posted by gimp

That's all you've got? Trying to say I don't actually know the people I've known for more than half my life? LOL . I said you and billybob's points are pointless and you've just proved. Actually, you said BillyBob and Poly's points are pointless (funny just saying it), not ninjashadow.

Originally posted by gimp

How do you know good ol' billybob ain't makin' up his stories? You don't. You just don't want to accept the fact that the thinking you are indulging in is nothing but a fallacy. That makes you even more of an idiot. It doesn't matter if BillyBob is making it up or not. You're right in that some skill workers can get hired despite bad looks, but they probably lost one or two customers that they could have had if they had taken that extra step. The extra step that BillyBob demands. I'd invest in BillyBob's business anyday.

[Ninjashadow]

I have to agree with you 5020. BillyBob is merely trying to run a business as successfully as he can. If his methods work for him, more power to him.

[Crow]

Originally posted by gimp

LOL. Is that the best you can do? That's pathetic.

How's an employer to know if someone didn't just go downtown and have a makeover just for the interview? Just borrowed a really nice ride to impress at the interview? And has no intention of maintaining that image once employed? He's going to let his hair grow out, fail to maintain his appearance, etc.... Your point is pointless. It's just as I said, it's all appearances that really don't mean anything except to someone who judges strictly on appearances.


Don't you think that if the guy did what you said that BillyBob would fire him?

[The Berean]

FYI,

I have an interview with Lockheed Martin (Sunnyvale, CA) on 3/4. I am planning on getting the nicest business suit, new dress shoes, and a short haircut. Lockheed Martin is one of the largest aerospace companies in the world and if I want them to hire me I have to impress them with my appearance, personality, and experience. All three go together. If one goes into an interview looking like a slob what's the point pf going to the interview? An interview is basically a sales pitch. You are selling your skills and experience. Go to a car dealership. All the sales people are nicely dressed, right?

[Crow]

Good luck with the interview, Berean.

I'm a nurse. If I went into the job interview wearing dirty clothes with my hair a mess, I wouldn't stand a chance, nursing shortage or not.

Now that doesn't mean that I never look like that. Catch me in my garden some day. :shocked:

The appearance you project at the interview is the appearance that you will be projecting to the clients. Does a cruddy looking nurse inspire confidence in a patient? Hardly.

When you're on the boss's time, you play by the boss's rules. This includes the interview.

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by The Berean

FYI,

I have an interview with Lockheed Martin (Sunnyvale, CA) on 3/4. I am planning on getting the nicest business suit, new dress shoes, and a short haircut. Lockheed Martin is one of the largest aerospace companies in the world and if I want them to hire me I have to impress them with my appearance, personality, and experience. All three go together. If one goes into an interview looking like a slob what's the point pf going to the interview? An interview is basically a sales pitch. You are selling your skills and experience. Go to a car dealership. All the sales people are nicely dressed, right?

Good luck with the interview TB. Aerospace is cool. It's like space that's aerodynamically designed to go faster. Fast space rocks!

[gimp]

Don't you think that if the guy did what you said that BillyBob would fire him?

billybob most likely would, but that isn't the point. The point is that appearances can be anything but the reality. Any judging of a person's worth when based heavily upon externals is a very risky, and a very shallow way to do things.

The fact that he would fire the guy shows that what I've been saying is true. Appearances are not a reliable indicator of of value because someone who was just hired because he looked great turned out to not be what he appeared to be. I've also given several instances here where just the opposite was true too. Even though a person looks a little less than successful doesn't mean they are.

The best con artists in the world are those who really look respectable. They use the fact that so many people place so much value upon appearances to create trust, or at least absence of suspicion.

The one contractor I spoke of, put his own 5 sons through Christian schools throughout their education. I went to school with 4 of them. It's really expensive to go through the parochial school system for 16+ plus years for 1 kid, let alone 5. He also helped a lot of other kids who would have not gotten that quality of education because their parents were poor by paying for their education too. I don't know how many he helped but it was quite a few.

He spent his money on people and helped his church out very regularly. That's why he always drove old vehicles. He had priorities other than appearances and people respected him for it. No one cared what he drove.

When he retired in the very early 90's he was still driving the same 1967 Ford Econoline van at work that he was driving when I went to school with his sons in the late 60's and early 70's. Did it hurt his business? He was turning away work because he couldn't keep up with it. His reputation was such no one cared what he drove, looked like, or that his several of his employees drove scruffy looking vehicles either. They knew he was trustworthy and they trusted him to look out for them. They knew that if they could get him to build their home, factory, office building, or whatever, that it would be done as well as it could possibly be done.

The only time appearances make much difference is when you don't have a good reputation. Then the shallow minded hire you because you look good, not because you are good. There's a huge difference.

[Mr. 5020]

You're making good points, but you're missing the main point.

While your contractor buddy may have been a great worker, :BillyBob: knows that his customer base won't want him at their house. Why? Are they shallow? Probably. Does it matter? Not really. :BillyBob: does what it takes to please the customer, even if it means not hiring a great guy with an ugly truck.

[Ninjashadow]

What's the first rule of business? Know thy customer. I'm sure BillyBob would hire the guy if the customers didn't care.

[Crow]

Originally posted by gimp

billybob most likely would, but that isn't the point. The point is that appearances can be anything but the reality. Any judging of a person's worth when based heavily upon externals is a very risky, and a very shallow way to do things.

The fact that he would fire the guy shows that what I've been saying is true. Appearances are not a reliable indicator of of value because someone who was just hired because he looked great turned out to not be what he appeared to be. I've also given several instances here where just the opposite was true too. Even though a person looks a little less than successful doesn't mean they are.

The best con artists in the world are those who really look respectable. They use the fact that so many people place so much value upon appearances to create trust, or at least absence of suspicion.

The one contractor I spoke of, put his own 5 sons through Christian schools throughout their education. I went to school with 4 of them. It's really expensive to go through the parochial school system for 16+ plus years for 1 kid, let alone 5. He also helped a lot of other kids who would have not gotten that quality of education because their parents were poor by paying for their education too. I don't know how many he helped but it was quite a few.

He spent his money on people and helped his church out very regularly. That's why he always drove old vehicles. He had priorities other than appearances and people respected him for it. No one cared what he drove.

When he retired in the very early 90's he was still driving the same 1967 Ford Econoline van at work that he was driving when I went to school with his sons in the late 60's and early 70's. Did it hurt his business? He was turning away work because he couldn't keep up with it. His reputation was such no one cared what he drove, looked like, or that his several of his employees drove scruffy looking vehicles either. They knew he was trustworthy and they trusted him to look out for them. They knew that if they could get him to build their home, factory, office building, or whatever, that it would be done as well as it could possibly be done.

The only time appearances make much difference is when you don't have a good reputation. Then the shallow minded hire you because you look good, not because you are good. There's a huge difference.

I think that you are missing the point.

BillyBob is an employer.

He sets the standards for his business.

If BillyBob makes choices that harm his business, that is his business.

If BillyBob decides to give a former crack addict a chance, and hire him (which he did) then BillyBob is free to take that risk, because it's his business.

If BillyBob decides that he doesn't want to hire a slob, and take the risk that he is passing over a valuable commodity, them BillyBob is free to take that risk, because BillyBob owns the business.

BillyBob knows whether his labor market is tight or not, and how picky he can afford to be. And if he screws up, then he faces the consequences. And that is his own business.

You are free to start a business and hire all of the scrubs you want to because we have free enterprise. That's your business.

And BillyBob will probably leave you in the dust, because most people don't want the great unwashed tramping through their house. And that's their business.

[gimp]

I think that you are missing the point.

BillyBob is an employer.

He sets the standards for his business.

If BillyBob makes choices that harm his business, that is his business.


Where did I say good ol' billybob couldn't choose to do things his own idiotic way? Where did I say the government should tell billybob the idiot what to do in a private business? Find one word where I've mentioned the government and/or regulation.

You're an idiot who is reading that into what I have said. All I've done is commented on his idiotic hiring practices. It just seems to me that the rest of you idiots think just as stupidly as he does.

[Frank Ernest]

Originally posted by :mock:gimp

Where did I say good ol' billybob couldn't choose to do things his own idiotic way? Where did I say the government should tell billybob the idiot what to do in a private business? Find one word where I've mentioned the government and/or regulation.

You're an idiot who is reading that into what I have said. All I've done is commented on his idiotic hiring practices. It just seems to me that the rest of you idiots think just as stupidly as he does.
Of course, you know better than BillyBob how his business should be run. If he doesn't agree with your way of running his business, then he does things in an idiotic way. In fact, anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot who thinks stupidly.

Obviously, you have never run a business or held a job for very long.

[Lighthouse]

Where I work some people do look unkempt, and have beat up vehicles. One of them just lost his vehicle to an accident. And I don't have a vehicle at all. I have called my boss for rides before. I feel like a loser when that happens. And I honestly don't think that certain places should hire me, for reasons such as that. Of course, where I work is a fast food joint, so it's not considered that big of a deal. But those with the most unkempt appearances work in the back, where they aren't seen by the customers.

Of course, I still think my boss should start holding to some kind of higher standard in soem of these areas. Skilled or not, people should keep themselves presentable.

[gimp]

In fact, anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot who thinks stupidly.

Of course you're an idiot if you agree with billybob.

And, I have run my own business. I started it driving a beat up old 1964 Dodge pickup because that's all I had at the time. Within two years I driving was driving something a little better, but the point is I grew my business while driving something that wasn't very good looking, and my business required me to go into peoples homes on a daily basis.

My business grew because I was good at what I did, treated my customers fairly, and was reasonably priced. I parked that old truck in some pretty fancy driveways.

I've worked with my hands and dealt with people most of my adult life. People care far less what you drive than about your honesty, skill, and reliability. 20 years in a business in which I was in people's homes every day of the week taught me a lot.

I've worked inside many extravagant homes and the ones who didn't want to pay their bills were the very ones that good ol' billybob caters to: the shallow minded who value appearance over all else. They didn't pay their bills on time because they were usually broke from living beyond their means in their attempt to look good. They were the people you idiots are so consumed with impressing.

[Mr. 5020]

Originally posted by gimp

Of course you're an idiot if you agree with billybob.

And, I have run my own business. I started it driving a beat up old 1964 Dodge pickup because that's all I had at the time. Within two years I driving was driving something a little better, but the point is I grew my business while driving something that wasn't very good looking, and my business required me to go into peoples homes on a daily basis. I see you're not running it anymore.
Originally posted by gimp

My business grew because I was good at what I did, treated my customers fairly, and was reasonably priced. I parked that old truck in some pretty fancy driveways. You got a new car. Perfect example. If your business is doing well, you can get a new car.
Originally posted by gimp

I've worked with my hands and dealt with people most of my adult life. People care far less what you drive than about your honesty, skill, and reliability. 20 years in a business in which I was in people's homes every day of the week taught me a lot.

I've worked inside many extravagant homes and the ones who didn't want to pay their bills were the very ones that good ol' billybob caters to: the shallow minded who value appearance over all else. They didn't pay their bills on time because they were usually broke from living beyond their means in their attempt to look good. They were the people you idiots are so consumed with impressing. We are not consumed with impressing them. We are interested in their money.

[daniel]

We are not consumed with impressing them. We are interested in their money.

That just shows you're an idiot. Any knowledgeable businessman knows that the profit in any job declines precipitously when the money for the job isn't collected immediately. Almost all business men I've ever known will agree that if you have to fight to get your money, there is no profit left in the job. I avoided those customers who were hard to collect from, and so did every other business man I have ever been associated with.

You're advocating spending money and hiring people based on one fact, to impress people who will not add to your bottom line: profit. That's idiotic and you're stupid.

[Ninjashadow]

BillyBob never said that he had trouble collecting his money.

[daniel]

BillyBob never said that he had trouble collecting his money.

Of course billybob the idiot is not going to tell you that. That's a negative about his way of doing business. Spending extra money to attract business that won't generate bottom line profit is a fool's way of doing business because he is spending needlessly and having a hard time collecting for the work he does.

[Lighthouse]

Well, daniel and gimp are the same person. Why am I not surprised?

[Crow]

Yes. lighthouse, they are one and the same.

And here's one of the posts the person who calls those who disagree with him "idiots" recently posted under his "daniel" moniker:

I find this kind of reprehensible. Day after day on these forums sozo, lighthouse, and others use name-calling as a regular tool of intimidation. They show no respect for anyone who disagrees with them. And yet as soon as anyone calls them on their behavior and says what they think of it you object.

This thread is full of their typical abuse of others. If you really object to name calling then why don't you daily object to all the name calling that goes on here? Be consistent and stand for the right.

I know you're not one of the ones to get involved in calling names so the following doesn't apply to you, Nineveh.

godrulz is a fine example of a true Christian gentleman. He speaks with humility, respect for others, and meekness. He follows the example of his Savior. His opponents though, well, they remind me of those who opposed Christ. They use intimidation, rudeness, cruelty, anger and hatred as their tools. They heap disrepect and hatred upon his head. They are the Pharisees of this generation. They know some scripture, but they err in that they do not know God or the power of the Gospel. They are filled, just as the Pharisees of Christ's day, with hatred for that which is good, for that which really reflects the character of God. They have a form of religion but deny the power thereof and their actions show it.

I for one can no longer stand idly by while decent Christian people are mocked, have their relationship with God impugned, and called vile names. I will call a spade a spade in defense of others.

That the moderators and owner of this site stand by while this type of behavior goes on a daily basis does not speak well for them as Christians, or even as human beings. They have the power to put a stop to it and they choose to watch this behavior, and even participate in it. It's reprehensible. It's anti-Christian. I have spent years on the internet and been involved in many forums and I've never seen anything like this. Non-Christian sites won't tolerate this kind of behavior, and yet these so-called Christian's not only tolerate it they enourage it by participating in this behavior themselves. What a way to convince the world the that Christianity is something that is good for it, and has something to better to offer.

Y'all form your own opinions and draw your own conclusions.

[Lighthouse]

:darwinsm:

[Nineveh]

Well, if you can't get someone to agree with you... make up a friend who does....

Didn't sybel try this same thing?

[Eowyn]

Originally posted by Nineveh

Well, if you can't get someone to agree with you... make up a friend who does....

The definition of pathetic!:crackup:

[Ninjashadow]

Originally posted by daniel

Of course billybob the idiot is not going to tell you that. That's a negative about his way of doing business. Spending extra money to attract business that won't generate bottom line profit is a fool's way of doing business because he is spending needlessly and having a hard time collecting for the work he does.

:doh: I've had a better conversation with my dog.

[The Berean]

Originally posted by Crow

Good luck with the interview, Berean.

I'm a nurse. If I went into the job interview wearing dirty clothes with my hair a mess, I wouldn't stand a chance, nursing shortage or not.

Now that doesn't mean that I never look like that. Catch me in my garden some day. :shocked:

The appearance you project at the interview is the appearance that you will be projecting to the clients. Does a cruddy looking nurse inspire confidence in a patient? Hardly.

When you're on the boss's time, you play by the boss's rules. This includes the interview.

Thanks for the encouragement, Crow. I am looking forward to it. :thumb:

[The Berean]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

Good luck with the interview TB. Aerospace is cool. It's like space that's aerodynamically designed to go faster. Fast space rocks!

Aerospace is cool! :thumb: I think maybe the word "aerospace" is an oxymororn. :think:

[BillyBob]

Wow, I leave town for a couple days to do a job and I miss all the fun. :chuckle:

Too bad Gimp is no longer with us, he won't be able to read my responses to his silly posts.

I am pleased with the reaction the rest of you have had concerning this topic. It's all about freedom to run a business the way each of us deems most effective without the government interfering.

I'm going to take a few minutes and respond to a few specific posts.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by gimp

billybob,

I know a an extremely talented carpenter whom you wouldn't hire. You'd take one look at him and send him on his way. Why? Because the man has just recovered his health after several years of not being able to work. He'd show up in raggedy clothes for an interview because that's all he owns anymore.

This story already seems fishy.
1. Health problems don't make your clothes raggedy.
2. If he truly needs cheap clothing, he could have gone to the local Goodwill.
3. If he explained his situation to me and said that he would get some suitable clothes with his first paycheck, I would have no problem with that. Not all of my jobs are in people's homes. But really, if he isn't a slob, how bad could his clothes actually be?

[I think you're making this guy up]



His credit report sucks because he's had no income for a long time and he had to declare bankruptcy, but he's as honest as the day is long.

I never check the credit of my employees, I merely mentioned it in the list of my opening post beacuse it is a common practice with a lot of companies. This thread isn't supposed to be about me, it's about the freedom to hire and fire based on our own needs and criteria. I just happen to use myself in some of these examples because it seems pertinent and it is what I personally know.



He also drives an old truck that's splattered with paint and is all dinged up from his years working construction when he's used his own vehicle for work. He's got three strikes against him in your eyes, but none of them really mean a thing.

Yes, if his truck is a beater, I probably would not consider him. There are plenty of jobsites where the condition of hs truck would not matter, but I don't usually do that type of work.

You previously implied that I have a fancy truck for show and an accompanying bank note. Neither is true. My truck is ten years old and paid for. I keep it in good condition, it has no dents and not many scratches. It is mechanically sound and I'm rather fond of it. For someone who has a propensity for calling others 'idiots', you couldn't be more wrong. [unless you happened to still be posting here.] :chuckle:


You'd send him packing on appearances only and you'd lose a really valuable man.

Yes, that may be. If he impressed me as genuinely skilled but I couldn't use him, I would refer him to other contractors I know where he may be better suited. I never begrudge a man who is willing to work.

You're an idiot billybob, but the world's full of idiots just like you who judge books by their covers, who value appearance more than reality.

You know, the first time you called me an idiot, I stayed friendly and on topic. I let it slide without any retaliation because because I don't get any pleasure from making fun of retarded people. Too bad you are gone, I would have made an exception in your case.

[BillyBob]

I can't resist commenting.....



Originally posted by gimp

billybob most likely would [fire a person who showed up for an interview neatly dressed them was a slob after that], but that isn't the point.

It absolutely is the point. Faking your way through an interview means you will likely be interviewing for another job soon. What good is it for a person to come to an interview and lie about himself when he knows the truth will soon be apparent and he will be out of a job?

The point is that appearances can be anything but the reality.

Yes, you are right. I shower every morning, shave, blow drie my hair and even use gel and hairspray but the reality is that if I don't do these things, I will look like a slob.



The fact that he would fire the guy shows that what I've been saying is true. Appearances are not a reliable indicator of of value because someone who was just hired because he looked great turned out to not be what he appeared to be.

I never suggested that I hire solely on appearanc. You are too busy calling people idiots when you should instead be paying attention.



The only time appearances make much difference is when you don't have a good reputation.

Now who's the idiot? :darwinsm:

Are you suggesting that every neat person has a bad reputation? :darwinsm:

What if the reputation is for being a neat company with curteous, polite, clean neatly dressed employees who clean up their mess, use drop clothes and are sensitive to the customers needs?




Then the shallow minded hire you because you look good, not because you are good. There's a huge difference.

Are you saying that a person can't be good and look good?

:darwinsm:

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Where I work some people do look unkempt, and have beat up vehicles. One of them just lost his vehicle to an accident. And I don't have a vehicle at all. I have called my boss for rides before. I feel like a loser when that happens. And I honestly don't think that certain places should hire me, for reasons such as that. Of course, where I work is a fast food joint, so it's not considered that big of a deal. But those with the most unkempt appearances work in the back, where they aren't seen by the customers.

Of course, I still think my boss should start holding to some kind of higher standard in soem of these areas. Skilled or not, people should keep themselves presentable.

Those are all good points, Lighthouse. Your manager knows that the sloppy looking employees are best suited where the public cannot see them. As a consumer, I know what it's like to see people working in a restaurant who are not neat, it's likely I would never go back to that restaurant again. In your line of work, it does not matter if you drive a beater, but I guarantee you, if you ever work for a 'high-class' restaurant, the manager will certainly not allow you to park your beater car in the parking lot where the patrons can see it.

When I was much younger, I worked for a plumbing company and was told I had to shave my beard. I didn't mind, I understood that if I wanted to work for that company, I would have to shave.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

:doh: I've had a better conversation with my dog.


:darwinsm:

[Ninjashadow]

So gimp got banned? I feel a sense of loss....oh wait, it was just gas.

[gimp]

LOL.

Hey, I was going to put an end to the charade today as I figured I had made my point. I had made everyone dislike me and unwilling to listen to my point of view.

Everybody I dealt with as gimp on this thread took offense, and rightly so, at being called stupid and an idiot. In fact my usage of degrading terms made people all the less likely to listen to me. It made you all defensive and less likely to listen to anything I had to say.

If anyone had listened to what I had to say as daniel I would never have pulled this little stunt, but this was here to prove a point. And that point is rudeness never increases your ability to influence people. It never increases another person's willingness to listen to you. It has just the opposite effect. It closes the minds of those you are supposedly tring to reach.

Anyway, sorry for highjacking your thread billybob. I just couldn't figure out a way to get people to understand what I had to say so I figured an object lesson might work. I get a kick out of most of your posts. And I do agree with you that the government shouldn't be involved in how a small businessman runs his business, at least when he's running it honestly anyway.

The stories I gave were true, the experiences all ones I have actually had. I just adopted the tactic of rudeness to show how useless and counter-productive it is. So, I apologize to one and all for my deception. It wasn't very nice, but I just couldn't get anyone to listen to just how rudeness is perceived by those on the recieving end of it.

[Ninjashadow]

You are an idiot you worthless piece of scum. Thank you, have a nice day!

[Crow]

Originally posted by ninjashadow

So gimp got banned? I feel a sense of loss....oh wait, it was just gas.

Gimp wasn't banned. Merely "outed."

[Ninjashadow]

So, he's gay?

[Crow]

Ask him if you want. If he answers, you can consider whether you should believe anything he says.

[Ninjashadow]

I'm ignoring gimp from now on. He's deceitful and not very nice.

[Crow]

Originally posted by gimp

LOL.

Hey, I was going to put an end to the charade today as I figured I had made my point. I had made everyone dislike me and unwilling to listen to my point of view.

Everybody I dealt with as gimp on this thread took offense, and rightly so, at being called stupid and an idiot. In fact my usage of degrading terms made people all the less likely to listen to me. It made you all defensive and less likely to listen to anything I had to say.

If anyone had listened to what I had to say as daniel I would never have pulled this little stunt, but this was here to prove a point. And that point is rudeness never increases your ability to influence people. It never increases another person's willingness to listen to you. It has just the opposite effect. It closes the minds of those you are supposedly tring to reach.

Anyway, sorry for highjacking your thread billybob. I just couldn't figure out a way to get people to understand what I had to say so I figured an object lesson might work. I get a kick out of most of your posts. And I do agree with you that the government shouldn't be involved in how a small businessman runs his business, at least when he's running it honestly anyway.

The stories I gave were true, the experiences all ones I have actually had. I just adopted the tactic of rudeness to show how useless and counter-productive it is. So, I apologize to one and all for my deception. It wasn't very nice, but I just couldn't get anyone to listen to just how rudeness is perceived by those on the recieving end of it.

Lame.

As I look back through this thread, posters discounted your ideas, not your name calling, as being illogical.

For the most part, they responded very patiently, as one would when trying to teach a not-so-bright child.

The only thing you proved to anyone is that you are deceptive.

Keep thinking you proved a point. You did, but it's not the one you want us to believe.

[gimp]

I'm ignoring gimp from now on. He's deceitful and not very nice.

Hey ninjashadow, I don't know you, don't know if I've even ever read any of your posts before this thread. Nothing was said to you personally that was meant in earnest. You were just caught in an object lesson. If you want to take that personally, well, nothing I can do about that.

To the rest of you, I hope that the next time you want to start calling someone names just because the disagree with your theology, don't/haven't accept/ed Christ, etc... you'll remember this thread and remember the dislike for me my deliberately rude behavior engendered in you. I hope it will create at least some desire to speak with compassion to your fellow man because if you really do want that person to repent of his sins and become a Christian being rude is exactly the wrong way to go about influencing him/her towards accepting what you have to say. Your rudeness may very well close that person's heart towards God for all of eternity because they just may say in their heart, If that's what Christians are like I'll never be one of them. Their God must be a real jerk.

It's an awesome responsibility to be a messenger of the King.

[Crow]

You know, I've heard this stuff before when someone gets caught talking out of both sides of his mouth. "I was just trying to show you something, I was just about to tell you who I really was, blah, blah blah."

I don't know about the rest of you, but for me it doesn't flush.

In the past, we've caught several people playing these deceptive little troll games "for the good of" the board, Christendom, whatever.

Every one of them has continued to prove that the only one they were deceiving was themselves. That is, the ones who were allowed to continue.

You see, when most posters point out foolishness and call others names, and it happens here often enough, it is in the open. It is not hypocritical, not sneaky. You don't have to wonder where they're coming from and what they're saying. I respect honest anger. I know what I am dealing with, and I can do so, up front, as it should be.

I don't respect a deceiver.

As I said earlier, you will form your own opinions of daniel/gimp's actions and character. This is as it should be. God gives you a mind, God gives you discernment. We all have that to varying degrees, Christians and non-Christians alike.

gimp/daniel claims to have been attempting to teach people a lesson about name calling. To my way of thinking, he has inadvertently reinforced that we should hate the double-minded (Psalm 119:13) and guard against deception.

[gimp]

gimp/daniel claims to have been attempting to teach people a lesson about name calling. To my way of thinking, he has inadvertently reinforced that we should hate the double-minded (Psalm 119:13) and guard against deception.

Crow, whatever you think of me personally my point is made to those whom I called names on this thread. In the moment you all resented the rudeness. You all wanted to find a way to deny what I said if for no other reason than that I was just being flat out mean. You were all highly motivated to reject everything I said, and not a one of you can look inside yourselves and honestly deny it. Oh, you can come on this thread and state that rudeness doesn't bother you in the least and that you really listen to those who are rude to you, but then you'd be being just as deceptive as I was in doing what I did on this thread.

I'll take a lesson or two away from this thread. The first being never to stoop to using deception to make a point. Will anyone else learn the lesson about their rudeness? Will you be honest enough to at least look into your heart of hearts and recognize that this deceiver spoke the truth about how rudeness affects people? I hope so. I personally doubt it though because I screwed up by being deceptive. You'll use my mistake as an excuse to not look at yourselves, your behavior, and its affect on those to whom you are rude.

[Crow]

Originally posted by gimp

Crow, whatever you think of me personally my point is made to those whom I called names on this thread. In the moment you all resented the rudeness. You all wanted to find a way to deny what I said if for no other reason than that I was just being flat out mean. You were all highly motivated to reject everything I said, and not a one of you can look inside yourselves and honestly deny it. Oh, you can come on this thread and state that rudeness doesn't bother you in the least and that you really listen to those who are rude to you, but then you'd be being just as deceptive as I was in doing what I did on this thread.

I'll take a lesson or two away from this thread. The first being never to stoop to using deception to make a point. Will anyone else learn the lesson about their rudeness? Will you be honest enough to at least look into your heart of hearts and recognize that this deceiver spoke the truth about how rudeness affects people? I hope so. I personally doubt it though because I screwed up by being deceptive. You'll use my mistake as an excuse to not look at yourselves, your behavior, and its affect on those to whom you are rude.

Gimp/daniel, I've learned valuable lessons from Sozo, who can be quite vitriolic. Yup, I've been on the receiving end of Sozo's flaming wrath, and benefited from it.

I was brought to Christ by Bob Enyart. You might be familiar with his style. It is certainly not nicer than God.

I appreciate their rebukes and yes, their name calling because it benefited me. I would be going to hell if it had not been for Bob Enyart's rebuke and showning me just what an idiot I was. Sozo was the person who truly made the bare bones truth of how grace operates clear to me.

I rejected your ideas because they didn't make sense. Most of the others said as much.

Since I've stated how I came to Christ and my opinions of Sozo here many times, pretty much everyone that's been here a while knows that I'm not just blowing smoke.

Does rudeness bother me? It can be annoying. It can irk me. But is it on the same level with lies and deception? No. The liar benefits no one.

You see, gimp/daniel, you haven't told anyone anything they weren't aware of already. Did you really think that anyone was unaware that rudeness is unpleasant? Puh-lease!

If no one is listening to you, it is because you have nothing valuable to say, because what you say doesn't hold water, or because you say it poorly. If people disagree with your positions, it is because they find them illogical or unrealistic.

[Mr. 5020]

Originally posted by Crow

Gimp/daniel, I've learned valuable lessons from Sozo, who can be quite vitriolic. Yup, I've been on the receiving end of Sozo's flaming wrath, and benefited from it.

I was brought to Christ by Bob Enyart. You might be familiar with his style. It is certainly not nicer than God.

I appreciate their rebukes and yes, their name calling because it benefited me. I would be going to hell if it had not been for Bob Enyart's rebuke and showning me just what an idiot I was. Sozo was the person who truly made the bare bones truth of how grace operates clear to me.

I rejected your ideas because they didn't make sense. Most of the others said as much.

Since I've stated how I came to Christ and my opinions of Sozo here many times, pretty much everyone that's been here a while knows that I'm not just blowing smoke.

Does rudeness bother me? It can be annoying. It can irk me. But is it on the same level with lies and deception? No. The liar benefits no one.

You see, gimp/daniel, you haven't told anyone anything they weren't aware of already. Did you really think that anyone was unaware that rudeness is unpleasant? Puh-lease!

If no one is listening to you, it is because you have nothing valuable to say, because what you say doesn't hold water, or because you say it poorly. It people disagree with your positions, it is because they find them illogical or unrealistic. It's time to put daniel and gimp on the ignore list.

Who's with me?!?!?

[Ninjashadow]

Already beat you to it Mr. 5020.

[Frank Ernest]

Originally posted by :mock:gimp

Crow, whatever you think of me personally my point is made to those whom I called names on this thread. In the moment you all resented the rudeness. You all wanted to find a way to deny what I said if for no other reason than that I was just being flat out mean. You were all highly motivated to reject everything I said, and not a one of you can look inside yourselves and honestly deny it. Oh, you can come on this thread and state that rudeness doesn't bother you in the least and that you really listen to those who are rude to you, but then you'd be being just as deceptive as I was in doing what I did on this thread.
Looks to me like you missed the point of your own lesson, all-wise one. I have a clue for you. Your attempt at being rude has been seen many times before. It's a common tactic of commie lie-berals, atheists, and other clueless dimbulbs to resort to ad hominems when their arguments have been totally destroyed, as yours were. :shocked: So, if your object was to teach someone a lesson, you failed.

I'll take a lesson or two away from this thread. The first being never to stoop to using deception to make a point. Will anyone else learn the lesson about their rudeness? Will you be honest enough to at least look into your heart of hearts and recognize that this deceiver spoke the truth about how rudeness affects people? I hope so. I personally doubt it though because I screwed up by being deceptive. You'll use my mistake as an excuse to not look at yourselves, your behavior, and its affect on those to whom you are rude.
Sure. :rolleyes: Deception is always the best approach, right? Pardon me for being rude, but go lose yourself somewhere. Why should anyone be impressed with an infantile egotistical "lesson" perpetrated by deception?

[BillyBob]

Gimp, if you go back and reread this thread from start to finish, you will see how much restraint all of us had when dealing with you, even while you were calling the rest of us idiots in every one of your posts.

The lesson I got from this thread was learned by watching how the rest of us tried to avoid namecalling and address each of the specifics of your posts even while you were being unnecessarily rude.

You claim that we readily resort to namecalling, but your tactic backfired on you. Ironically, the person who was doing most of the namecalling was you.









I guess that's the end of this thread, I was hoping to have a civil conversation with JayHoover, but I guess we both got off on the wrong foot in another thread and he won't be debating this issue.


[edited for sp.]

[Frank Ernest]

Originally posted by :BillyBob:

Gimp, if you go back and reread this thread from start to finish, you will see how much restrain all of us had when dealing with you, even while you were calling the rest of us idiots in every one of your posts.

The lesson I got from this thread was learned by watching how the rest of us tried to avoid namecalling and address each of the specifics of your posts even while you were being uneccesarily rude.

You claim that we readily resort to namecalling, but your tactic backfired on you. Ironically, the person who was doing most of the namecalling was you.
I think you made your point and quite well. :thumb:

I guess that's the end of this thread, I was hoping to have a civil conversation with JayHoover, but I guess we both got off on the wrong foot in another thread and he won't be debating this issue.
You stomped a nerve. You trod upon a commie idealist.

[BillyBob]

No reply, Gimp?

[billwald]

As long as BB is running a scab shop he should be able to hire and fire as he pleases. People who don't want to work under these conditions should get a union job. The only alternative would be to negitiate a labor contract with BB for onesself if you labor was sufficiently valuable to BB that it was worth the risk and trouble to BB.

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by billwald

As long as BB is running a scab shop he should be able to hire and fire as he pleases. People who don't want to work under these conditions should get a union job.

Yes, if you don't want to earn $25 an hour, don't get to work directly for and even side by side with the business owner, don't get recognition for your good work, don't learn a multitude of trades at once, by all means, join a union.

You will be able to pay the mafia your union dues each week, wonder if and when you will get another job, wonder if and when your thug union bosses will call for a strike and be responsible for the unnecesarily high cost of ineficient, medium skilled labor. Those sound like great working conditions to me. :rolleyes:


The only alternative would be to negitiate a labor contract with BB for onesself if you labor was sufficiently valuable to BB that it was worth the risk and trouble to BB.

That ain't gonna happen. If you are that valuable and that skilled, you will start your own company. Labor Unions are for lazy scrubs who don't have the intelligence or the fortitude to be their own man and who know they would never be able to get a job in the real world [free market].

When I was a teenager, I worked for our family owned plumbing company. I remember one guy who tried to force my parents to unionize our shop.

They sent him packing. :wave2:

[Mr. 5020]

Originally posted by BillyBob

They sent him packing. :wave2: That's a good idea. Crow, press the button!

[Crow]

This reminds me of the "Gong Show"....

[billwald]

BB, I'm on your side. You should operate your shop any way you want. I was more than happy to be represented by the Seattle Police Officers Guild.

[Mr. 5020]

Originally posted by Crow

This reminds me of the "Gong Show".... :chuckle:

[Jabez]

Originally posted by BillyBob

I posted this in the 'JayHoover' thread, but I am hoping for a broader discussion.


OK, let's try this from another perspective.

Jay, do you believe the government has the authority to tell private business owners who they can and cannot hire? [assuming that person is a legal resident]

If you believe they have that authority, do you agree that they should legislate accordingly?

You have already conceded that there are certain jobs which are less suited for women. You have also conceded that there are times when a business can use race as a determiner for hiring someone. If you already agree with these points, where then do you draw the line?

If I interview 10 people, all of whom have equal skills and credentials pertaining to the job opening, how do I determine which one of them I will hire? Remember, they will be a representative of my company.

What if one of them is an ex-con?

What if another has long, unkempt hair.

Another has poor English skills.

Another has body odor.

Another has a 'Kerry/Edwards' sticker on his truck.

Another seems nervous and won't look me in the eye when we talk.

Another drives a beat up truck.

Another listens to loud rap music in his truck.

Another talks too much.

Another is a veteran.

Three of them have a poor credit rating.

Four of them are single.

One of them is a weekend musician.

One is a Muslim.

Three of them are Christians.

One is a Jew.

Eight are Caucasian and two are Black.


Are any or all of these 'qualities' something I should consider when making my decision?

Id give it to the Veteran

[Mr. 5020]

Originally posted by Jabez

Id give it to the Veteran Even if the veteran is the one that talks too much with the beat up truck and is dirty.

[Jabez]

Originally posted by Mr. 5020

Even if the veteran is the one that talks too much with the beat up truck and is dirty.

Yep, the same one who lost a eye and arm fighting for you.

[Crow]

Jabez, somehow I can't picture a one armed vet being able to do the type of work that BillyBob does.

[Jabez]

youd be surprised what we can do.

[Crow]

Not really. I've seen it.

But a veteran who wants a job with BillyBob should be willing to meet the same requirements as other people who do the job. There is no excuse for dirtiness. And he should be willing to make his truck presentable. A trip to Earl Schwab and doing the maintenance, for example.

And no, I don't think that a one armed man can do the same work that the rest of BillyBob's crew does in the manner that is necessary for construction work on a commercial venture. I've got an uncle who owns his own construction business, and I know a little about what is required.

[Jabez]

Originally posted by Crow

Not really. I've seen it.

But a veteran who wants a job with BillyBob should be willing to meet the same requirements as other people who do the job. There is no excuse for dirtiness. And he should be willing to make his truck presentable. A trip to Earl Schwab and doing the maintenance, for example.

And no, I don't think that a one armed man can do the same work that the rest of BillyBob's crew does in the manner that is necessary for construction work on a commercial venture. I've got an uncle who owns his own construction business, and I know a little about what is required.

I geuss iam the expection. I would put my self against any 100% healthy person on the job site. I geuss theres always the Post Office they give prefernce to Vets.

[Mr. 5020]

Originally posted by Jabez

Yep, the same one who lost a eye and arm fighting for you. Good point. I'm not saying I disagree with you. These questions are pure curiosity from a yung'un.

Moving back to the questions...

Even if you would lose customers for it?

[BillyBob]

Hey Jabez, I appreciate your input here.

As you know full well, I have the utmost respect and gratitude for our servicemen. Crow made a couple valid points:
1. The vet should comply with the same requirements as the rest of the crew.
2. A one armed man would not be able to do a majority of the work that we do.

Sorry, it is what it is.

That being said, depending on the individual and what type of jobs I had going, I might be able to use him as a driver for delivering materials and such. Once he's on site, he may find plenty of other things to do. I don't run a very large company and I may not be able to use him all the time. Even if I couldn't use him, I would help him find work in any way I could. I certainly owe that to him.

[Poly]

Originally posted by BillyBob

Hey Jabez, I appreciate your input here.

As you know full well, I have the utmost respect and gratitude for our servicemen. Crow made a couple valid points:
1. The vet should comply with the same requirements as the rest of the crew.
2. A one armed man would not be able to do a majority of the work that we do.

Sorry, it is what it is.

That being said, depending on the individual and what type of jobs I had going, I might be able to use him as a driver for delivering materials and such. Once he's on site, he may find plenty of other things to do. I don't run a very large company and I may not be able to use him all the time. Even if I couldn't use him, I would help him find work in any way I could. I certainly owe that to him.
POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18620) :up:

[Jabez]

Originally posted by Poly

POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18620) :up:

I second that !:thumb:

[BillyBob]

Wow, thanks guys. :o

[BillyBob]

Originally posted by Crow

If BillyBob decides to give a former crack addict a chance, and hire him (which he did) then BillyBob is free to take that risk, because it's his business.




Guess who showed up again looking for work?

I was able to use him on a job where all the work was being done on the outside of a commercial building. He is a very good painter, but he smokes constantly, is not clean shaven or neat and he isn't a very good communicator. I would never use him in the home of one of my customers, but he claims to have gone through rehab [again] and needed a days pay.

I was a little nervous about it, but it worked out.

[Ninjashadow]

Good for you, BillyBob. It's good to know that there are people out there who'll give someone a chance.

[BillyBob]

This is the 3rd chance I have given this particular individual. I'm actually quite leary about it, but the scenario was a 'safe' one, and it was just for a day.

[Ninjashadow]

Well, I still think it was nice of you to do that for him and pretty cool, too.

[Frank Ernest]

Gee! What A Surprise! :shocked:
:BillyBob: is a compassionate business owner willing to take a hiring risk even though he's a redneck conservative. :thumb:

He's also realistic. That's the part the lie-berals can't stand. :madmad:

Congrats on the POTD, :BillyBob:!

[Mr. 5020]

This is a thread worth another trip down the active list.

[Shalom]

Its a good thread topic.

I think you should have the freedom to hire and fire whoever you want for whatever reason you want. I dont agree with unions.
I dont think women or minorities should have a better chance at a job then white men.

[kmoney]

You should, but you don't....

[Shalom]

You should, but you don't....


:thumb: :jazz:

[BillyBob]

You should, but you don't....

I do!

[kmoney]

I do!
It's because you're just a little fish. They have bigger things to deal with. :chuckle:

[BillyBob]

I guess being a 'little fish' represents the last vestige of freedom.

Actually, no matter how large my company is or gets to be, I will not succumb to any governmental impositions when it comes to hiring or firing my employees.

Right now I only have 2.... :noid:

[kmoney]

I guess being a 'little fish' represents the last vestige of freedom.

Actually, no matter how large my company is or gets to be, I will not succumb to any governmental impositions when it comes to hiring or firing my employees.

Right now I only have 2.... :noid:
I just know what is happening to where I work and it sucks. There isn't a whole lot you can do when they come in and examine your records and start telling you what to do. Some of it may be the industry though. :idunno:

[BillyBob]

I just know what is happening to where I work and it sucks. There isn't a whole lot you can do when they come in and examine your records and start telling you what to do. Some of it may be the industry though. :idunno:

I don't know what the owners of your company are experiencing, but I wish them the strength and fortitude to tell the government to 'go to hell'.

[kmoney]

I don't know what the owners of your company are experiencing, but I wish them the strength and fortitude to tell the government to 'go to hell'.
Well it's not something that is supposed to be talked about (even though telling people here wouldn't matter) but it is a bank. That is why I said being in this industry might make it worse on us. Banks are federally regulated and stuff. Telling them to go to tell would probably be a bad move :eek:

This whole thing just makes me mad though :mad:

[BillyBob]

Well it's not something that is supposed to be talked about (even though telling people here wouldn't matter) but it is a bank. That is why I said being in this industry might make it worse on us. Banks are federally regulated and stuff. Telling them to go to tell would probably be a bad move :eek:

Ah, that's what happens when you make a pact with the devil.

So what kind of banking position does a Black Amish Kid end up with, anyway?? :freak:

[kmoney]

Ah, that's what happens when you make a pact with the devil.

So what kind of banking position does a Black Amish Kid end up with, anyway?? :freak:
You wouldn't want to know. :noid:

But I guess I shouldn't complain about the government interference. How else do you think a black amish kid gets hired?? Diversity! :mrt:

[BillyBob]

You wouldn't want to know. :noid:

But I guess I shouldn't complain about the government interference. How else do you think a black amish kid gets hired?? Diversity! :mrt:

Good point!

Now, when you get done cleaning the toilets, my shoes need shined!

[kmoney]

Good point!

Now, when you get done cleaning the toilets, my shoes need shined!
:sozo2:

Later, right now I need to install my flash player plugin for someone :angel:

[BillyBob]

:sozo2:

Later, right now I need to install my flash player plugin for someone :angel:

I hope you buy her some flowers first......

:darwinsm:

[Shalom]

:Grizzly: unions

[kmoney]

:CRASH: :Grizzly: unions
:squint: So are you pro-union?? You're shooting the guy that is shooting the unions. You are a protector of unions!

:chuckle:


;)

[Shalom]

-Unions drive up the cost on construction and all other things because they demand unreasonable pay and take as long as they can to do a job.

-Unions purposely take advantage of federal law to put independent contractors out of business by a number of ways specifically using the Federal courts. Especially if they view the independent contractor as strong competition in their area.

-Unions specifically back up democratic politicians partially through "union dues" that union emloyees pay.

They are pathetic and dont do any good for anyone!!!!!!!!

[Shalom]

:squint: So are you pro-union?? You're shooting the guy that is shooting the unions. You are a protector of unions!

:chuckle:


;)


DOH! :doh:

I will have to edit now..... ;)

[The Berean]

FYI,

I have an interview with Lockheed Martin (Sunnyvale, CA) on 3/4. I am planning on getting the nicest business suit, new dress shoes, and a short haircut. Lockheed Martin is one of the largest aerospace companies in the world and if I want them to hire me I have to impress them with my appearance, personality, and experience. All three go together. If one goes into an interview looking like a slob what's the point pf going to the interview? An interview is basically a sales pitch. You are selling your skills and experience. Go to a car dealership. All the sales people are nicely dressed, right?
Wow, I forgot about this thread. I did get this job and I I've been at Lockheed for almost 11 months now.

[kmoney]

Wow, I forgot about this thread. I did get this job and I I've been at Lockheed for almost 11 months now.
Congrats! :cheers:

[Shalom]

Wow, I forgot about this thread. I did get this job and I I've been at Lockheed for almost 11 months now.

My brother GuySmilie used to be in the Air Force and he was stationed in Sunnyvale CA. He worked on launching satelites or something that has to do with that.

[BillyBob]

Wow, I forgot about this thread. I did get this job and I I've been at Lockheed for almost 11 months now.

Wow, how time flies.......

Congrats...again. :cheers: