Argument in Favor of 7th day Sabbath worship . . .

[Ya'nar#1]

Argument in Favor of seventh-day Sabbath Worship

Seventh-day Adventists consider worship from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday to be essential to Christianity for these reasons:

So far as we can tell, all the apostles worshiped on Sabbath for the remainder of their ministries--for there is no record, even among Paul's writings, of a change in the day.

But the important part of this question is still left unanswered:

Is it important to God which day we worship as Sabbath?

The answer of course, is Yes!

God commanded mankind to worship on the 7th day: ". . . But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD . . . [the "Lord's Day"] . . . For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY, AND MADE IT HOLY." Ex. 20:10, 11

Jesus said, "For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day." --Matt. 12:8

What day is He Lord of? --The sabbath day.

And what day IS the sabbath day? --The seventh day.

And what day is the seventh day? --Saturday.

The "Lord's Day" is the sabbath, and the true sabbath is Saturday, the seventh day of the week.

Therefore, the first day of the week, Sunday, cannot rightly be called the "Lord's Day," since Jesus proclaimed himself "Lord of the sabbath."

Is worshiping God on His holy sabbath day important to Him?

Consider:

1) He placed the 4th commandment in the center of the Decalogue.

2) He wrote it in stone with His own finger.

3) He mentions it at the beginning of creation.

4) The sabbath was one of two institutions Adam and Eve took with them when they left the garden.

5) The Sabbath commemorates God as "Creator of heaven and earth . . .", a distinction no false god [like Satan] can claim!

6) Had man continued to worship God on the sabbath, his mind would have been turned to the true Creator one day in seven, and thus mankind would not have been as likely to forget God.

Also, idol worship would not have spread as it did if man had turned each seventh day to worship God.

To replace the day God sanctified with a false day of worship, is to exalt a tradition of man over the commandment of God.

The Sabbath recognizes God as Creator of the world; the first day of the week was originally a pagan holyday that was sanctioned by the existing Church as a means of placating a pagan Emperor and his people, so that both might be brought into the church, with their idols intact.

Christians today may say they do not worship on Sunday because the Catholic Church sanctions the day--but it matters little to God WHY they disobey His commandment. It matters only that they exalt a man-made tradition over His law.

To break a commandment of the Royal law is to commit a sin.

It also means that you have not only broken ONE commandment--but the whole law of God.

Just something to think about . . .

May God Bless!

--Ya’nar :Princess:

[God_Is_Truth]

So far as we can tell, all the apostles worshiped on Sabbath for the remainder of their ministries--for there is no record, even among Paul's writings, of a change in the day.


Romans 14:5
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

what does "every day alike" mean to you?

Colossians 2
16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

should we keep living in the shadows when the light has come?

Galatians 4
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?10You observe days and months and seasons and years.11I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

the observance of days is here declared by Paul to be "weak and worthless" and leads people to be "enslaved". he fears for them, that all he had preached to them had been in vain (about being free in Christ).

Galatians 2
14But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

what was Paul rebuking Peter for? firstly hypocracy, but also for not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel. what was the truth he was not being straightforward about? simply that the gentiles could now go to God without Israel and thus they were not obligated to "live like Jews".

the Jews were instructed to observe one day a week, various months, and even Sabbath years. the Gentiles are not commanded (and arguably commanded against) to do such as Israel is placed aside in this time period (dispensation). now both groups have been made into one and can go straight to the Father through the blood of the Son.

to instruct that one must observe the Sabbath day is to say that the Gentiles must observe Jewish law and to mock the cross and work of Christ and the entire dispensation of grace.

and one last argument against the Sabbath day. all of us have died to the principles of the world. so anything that was once required of us before Christ is no longer required. having died, we are set free from any law once set in place. this includes the Sabbath, set as a regulation for the people of Israel under their dispensation. we now live in the new life, by the Spirit, not by the letter. for the letter condemns, but the Spirit gives life.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Galatians 2
20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Colossians 2
20If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"

"do not work" would be the sabbath equivalent in verse 21.

Colossians 3:3
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.


Is it important to God which day we worship as Sabbath?

not for the body of Christ, no.


The "Lord's Day" is the sabbath, and the true sabbath is Saturday, the seventh day of the week.

this is the day the Lord has made, i will rejoice and be glad in it.


Is worshiping God on His holy sabbath day important to Him?

not to the body of Christ. we died to the elementary principles of the world and our lives are hidden away in Christ. we are seated in the heavenlies and will judge angels. we have been set free from the letter and serve now by the Spirit.


1) He placed the 4th commandment in the center of the Decalogue.

and that affects someone in the body of Christ how?


2) He wrote it in stone with His own finger.

as part of an another system, to another group, yes.


3) He mentions it at the beginning of creation.


it is mentioned in the creation account, but that does not mean it was spoken at the beginning of creation. but even so, that does not mean i am to follow it for i have died to this world and i am seated in the heavenlies, with Christ. this world and everything in it applies not to me, but only Christ and him alone.


4) The sabbath was one of two institutions Adam and Eve took with them when they left the garden.

while i don't recall that passage, it is irrelevent none the less.


5) The Sabbath commemorates God as "Creator of heaven and earth . . .", a distinction no false god [like Satan] can claim!

which is exactly why Israel was suppoesd to follow it. but we are not Israel and we are in a new dispensation.

6) Had man continued to worship God on the sabbath, his mind would have been turned to the true Creator one day in seven, and thus mankind would not have been as likely to forget God.

where were the nations outside of Israel ever commanded to observe the sabbath?


To replace the day God sanctified with a false day of worship, is to exalt a tradition of man over the commandment of God.


to require any day of the week to be a day of rest is to put oneself back under law and to fall from grace.


Christians today may say they do not worship on Sunday because the Catholic Church sanctions the day--but it matters little to God WHY they disobey His commandment. It matters only that they exalt a man-made tradition over His law.

i worship every day of the week, not just saturday or sunday.


To break a commandment of the Royal law is to commit a sin.


what's the royal law? not that it really matters because all my sins are forgiven anyways, but i am curious none the less.

Peace,

GIT

[LightSon]

God_Is_Truth,
Good post. :thumb:


Ya'nar#1 ,
You seem very nice, so I don't want this to appear like an attack on your person. It is clear that you have your head stuck in Old Testament thinking. Perhaps you were born 2000 years too late. Do you still offer animals for blood sacrifice?

Come on into the NT; the water is fine. The grace of God allows Christians to be free from this OT baggage. Do as G_I_T does. Worship everyday. Worship God is spirit and in truth. This is what He desires of us, not what day of the week we assemble ourselves.

Blessings.

[Lighthouse]

I think you'd be better off with an argument for everyday worship, as well.

[Ninjashadow]

Besides, who's to say which day is the seventh day? It doesn't say in the old testament (or anywhere in the bible to my knowledge) that God started the whole process on a Sunday and that the seventh day would be a Saturday.

[Ya'nar#1]

GIT says,


Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Romans 14:5
5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

what does "every day alike" mean to you?


What does "every day alike" mean to me? What God expects of each of us is that we shall "be fully persuaded in our own mind" and conscientiously follow our convictions in accordance with the light we have received and understood so far.

However, this is not the problem here. I am "fully persuaded" that everyone on this board follows faithfully and conscientiously the light they have received so far. That's not the problem.

What I am NOT fully persuaded of is that all faithful believers here have been able to leave behind the grievous error of Sunday-sacredness. No where in either of the testaments does God give authority for mankind to change this day He made holy, and create a brand new Sabbath, or "rest" day.

The Sabbath was made holy at the Creation. It is clear God used the term "seventh day" and "Sabbath" interchangeably:

GEN 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it . . .

EXODUS 20:10, 11
10 But the SEVENTH DAY is the SABBATH OF THE LORD . . .
11 . . . wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed [sanctified] it.

Here God is plainly saying, whether one calls it "seventh day" or "Sabbath," when it comes to references concerning God's holy rest day, He used these terms interchangeably.

God can "hallow" Sabbath days; man cannot!

I have read many excuses men use today to justify worshipping on the Sunday "Sabbath" . . . and I have asked myself,How do these mortal men dare override God's command, and change God's holy day to a man's "holy" day . . . ???

And I always come to the same inescapable conclusion: No one can altar or change what God has made HOLY. No man has the power or authority to exalt a mere man-made day to the statis of a "holy" day. Only God can do that.



Colossians 2
16Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

should we keep living in the shadows when the light has come?



Colossians 2:16, 17
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days; Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.” (KJV)

The key to understanding correctly what is meant by “sabbath days” is in verse 17:

“. . . which are a shadow of things to come.”

The ceremonial articles “meat, drink, holyday, new moon, and sabbath days” were “shadows” which Paul declares to be pointing forward thru time to Christ. By contrast, the weekly Sabbath is a memorial of an event at the beginning of earth’s history, namely the 7th day rest, or “Sabbath” as it came to be called in Exodus.

The word sabbath means “rest.” It is used in scripture in two ways:

(1) as ceremonial “rest” days (“shadows of things to come” –meaning Christ).

(2) as a holy day created by God, the Sabbath of the 4th commandment, to commemorate the Creation by honoring God and resting from our labors one day a week.

All the items the apostle lists in v. 16 are "shadows," or types, symbolizing the reality that is Christ. A shadow has no substance; it is cast by something substantial. Compare the use of the word "shadow" in Heb. 8:5 and 10:1,

"Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount" (Heb. 8:5)


"For the law having a shadow of good things TO COME, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect." (Heb. 10:1).


The Jewish ceremonies were shadows cast by heavenly realities. Christ's life, ministry, and kingdom are the reality. The portrayal of this in the ceremonial law was only the "shadow of things to come."[/b]

On this passage, Albert Barnes, Presbyterian commentator, well observes: "There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind . . . He had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the MORAL law, or the ten commandments. No part of the moral law--no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as 'a shadow of good things to come.' These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal application."

So, taken together, when you read verses 16 and 17 as they were meant to be read, it is nonsense to conclude the "sabbath" referred to here is the 7th-day Sabbath sanctified by God in the 4th commandment. It just doesn't make sense. The sabbath (or "rest"), as well as the festivals, the holydays, new moons, and food and drink "which are a shadow of good things to come" refers to the long-anticipated coming of Christ which the Jews of the OT looked forward to . . . not to the coming of the seventh-day Sabbath, which of course had been with them for centuries.



Galatians 4
9But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

the observance of days is here declared by Paul to be "weak and worthless" and leads people to be "enslaved." He fears for them, that all he had preached to them had been in vain (about being free in Christ).

Galatians 2
14But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

what was Paul rebuking Peter for? firstly hypocracy, but also for not being straightforward about the truth of the gospel. what was the truth he was not being straightforward about? simply that the gentiles could now go to God without Israel and thus they were not obligated to "live like Jews".

the Jews were instructed to observe one day a week, various months, and even Sabbath years. the Gentiles are not commanded (and arguably commanded against) to do such as Israel is placed aside in this time period (dispensation). now both groups have been made into one and can go straight to the Father through the blood of the Son.

to instruct that one must observe the Sabbath day is to say that the Gentiles must observe Jewish law and to mock the cross and work of Christ and the entire dispensation of grace.

and one last argument against the Sabbath day. all of us have died to the principles of the world. so anything that was once required of us before Christ is no longer required. having died, we are set free from any law once set in place. this includes the Sabbath, set as a regulation for the people of Israel under their dispensation. we now live in the new life, by the Spirit, not by the letter. for the letter condemns, but the Spirit gives life.

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Galatians 2
20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Colossians 2
20If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as21"Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!"

"do not work" would be the sabbath equivalent in verse 21.

Colossians 3:3
For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.


Peace,

GIT

[Lighthouse]

Ya'nar-
Christ is our rest. Not Sunday, not the seventh day, but Christ. And Christ alone. And we rest in Him every day.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally Posted by Ya'nar#1

What does "every day alike" mean to me? What God expects of each of us is that we shall "be fully persuaded in our own mind" and conscientiously follow our convictions in accordance with the light we have received and understood so far.

However, this is not the problem here. I am "fully persuaded" that everyone on this board follows faithfully and conscientiously the light they have received so far. That's not the problem.

What I am NOT fully persuaded of is that all faithful believers here have been able to leave behind the grievous error of Sunday-sacredness. No where in either of the testaments does God give authority for mankind to change this day He made holy, and create a brand new Sabbath, or "rest" day.

The Sabbath was made holy at the Creation. It is clear God used the term "seventh day" and "Sabbath" interchangeably:

GEN 2:3
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it . . .

EXODUS 20:10, 11
10 But the SEVENTH DAY is the SABBATH OF THE LORD . . .
11 . . . wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed [sanctified] it.

Here God is plainly saying, whether one calls it "seventh day" or "Sabbath," when it comes to references concerning God's holy rest day, He used these terms interchangeable.

God can "hallow" Sabbath days; man cannot!

I have read many excuses men use today to justify worshipping on the Sunday "Sabbath" . . . and I have asked myself,How do these mortal men dare override God's command, and change God's holy day to a man's [false] holy day . . . ???

And I always come to the same inescapable conclusion: No one can altar or change what God has made HOLY. Mankind does not have the power or authority to exalt a mere man, or anything, to the statis of "holiness." Only God can do that.

I am NOT arguing that Sunday is the Sabbath.


The key to understanding correctly what is meant by “sabbath days” is in verse 17:

“. . . which are a shadow of things to come.”

The ceremonial articles “meat, drink, holyday, new moon, and sabbath days” were “shadows” which Paul declares to be pointing forward thru time to Christ. By contrast, the weekly Sabbath is a memorial of an event at the beginning of earth’s history, namely the 7th day rest, or “Sabbath” as it came to be called in Exodus.

and for what good reason to do you exclude the "Sabbath" from "sabbath days"? please don't tell me it's because one is capatialized and the other is not ;)


The word sabbath means “rest.” It is used in scripture in two ways:

(1) as ceremonial “rest” days (“shadows of things to come” –meaning Christ).

(2) as a holy day created by God, the Sabbath of the 4th commandment, to commemorate the Creation by honoring God and resting from our labors one day a week.

why the distinction? how is observing the 7th day of the week not ceremonial in nature?


Christ's life, ministry, and kingdom are the reality. The portrayal of this in the ceremonial law was only the "shadow of things to come."

Christ's life and ministry and kingdom were all prophesied and proclaimed to Israel alone. that is a distinctly seperate program and is not part of the "mystery" kept secret from the foundation of the world. we are in the dispensation of grace, given through the apostle Paul.

Christ is our rest and is the substance of the shadows, but the ministry and his kingdom and his life were not related directly to this (except for his death, burial and resurrection).


On this passage, Albert Barnes, Presbyterian commentator, well observes: "There is no evidence from this passage that he would teach that there was no obligation to observe any holy time, for there is not the slightest reason to believe that he meant to teach that one of the ten commandments had ceased to be binding on mankind

on the contrary, this passage and many others teach us that we are not under any law. we are under grace. the 10 commandments do NOT apply to us in this dispensation.


He had his eye on the great number of days which were observed by the Hebrews as festivals as a part of their ceremonial and typical law, and not to the MORAL law, or the ten commandments. No part of the moral law--no one of the ten commandments could be spoken of as 'a shadow of good things to come.' These commandments are, from the nature of moral law, of perpetual and universal application."

and how in the world does one describe the setting aside a day for rest as something pertaining to morality? there is nothing moral or immoral about the 7th day sabbath.


Ya'nar#1, you left most of my post untouched. Are you planning to address the rest in a seperate post? i do understand that it can become long so splitting it up is certainly acceptable. however, if you could state this at the end of one post, it makes it clearer.

if you don't plan to address it, may i ask why not? we can't simply ignore the scriptures, especially the ones written from Paul (which i quoted extensively from). we should never let our theology dictate our use of scripture. i trust you know this and will address them as time permits.

In Christ,

GIT

[Ya'nar#1]

Originally posted by Ya'nar#1

Argument in Favor of seventh-day Sabbath Worship:

Seventh-day Adventists consider worship from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday to be essential to Christianity for these reasons:

So far as we can tell, all the apostles worshiped on Sabbath for the remainder of their ministries--for there is NO RECORD, even among Paul's writings, of a change in the day.

But the important part of this question is still left unanswered:

Is it important to God which day we worship as Sabbath?

The answer of course, is Yes!

God commanded mankind to worship on the 7th day:

". . . But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH OF THE LORD . . . [the "Lord's Day"] . . . For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore THE LORD BLESSED THE SABBATH DAY, AND MADE IT HOLY." Ex. 20:10, 11


Jesus said, "For the Son of man is Lord even of the Sabbath day." --Matt. 12:8


What day is He Lord of? --The Sabbath day.


And what day IS the Sabbath day? --The seventh day.


And what day is the seventh day? --Saturday.


The "Lord's Day" is the Sabbath, and the true Sabbath is Saturday, the seventh day of the week.


Therefore, the first day of the week, Sunday, cannot rightly be called the "Lord's Day," since Jesus proclaimed himself "Lord of the Sabbath."

Ques: Is worshiping God on His holy Sabbath day important to Him?

Consider:

1) He placed the 4th commandment in the center of the Decalogue.

2) He wrote it in stone with His own finger.

3) He mentions it at the beginning of creation.

4) The Sabbath was one of two institutions Adam and Eve took with them when they left the garden.

5) The Sabbath commemorates God as "Creator of heaven and earth . . .", a distinction no false god [like Satan] can claim!

6) Had man continued to worship God on the Sabbath, his mind would have been turned to the true Creator one day in seven, and thus mankind would not have been as likely to forget God.

Also, idol worship would not have spread as it did if man had turned each seventh day to worship the Creator-God.

To replace the day God sanctified with a false day of worship, is to exalt a tradition of man over the commandment of God.

The Sabbath recognizes God as Creator of the world; the first day of the week was originally a pagan holyday that was sanctioned by the existing Church as a means of placating a pagan Emperor and his people, so that both might be brought into the church, with their idols intact.

Christians today may say they do not worship on Sunday because the Catholic Church sanctions the day--but it matters little to God WHY they disobey His commandment. It matters only that they exalt a man-made tradition over His law.

To break a commandment of the Royal law is to commit a sin.

It also means that you have not only broken ONE commandment--but the entire law (or all ten commandments) of God.

Just something to think about . . .



Thanks for your response!


May God Bless!

--Ya’nar :Princess:

[Lighthouse]

It seems some people have turned the law into a maze, and have gotten lost in it.

[swanca99]

If Christians were under the law, then we would be required to observe the sabbath day, which was Saturday. But Christians are not under the law.

You quoted Albert Barnes, who like most Presbyterians of his day was "reformed." Many reformed theologians consider the law of Moses to be the Christian's "rule of life" (they distinguish the "moral law" from the "ceremonial law" and claim that the ceremonial law is the one that we are not under), so they still observe a sabbath day, but they have changed the sabbath day to Sunday. Many of the people on this forum, myself included, believe that Christians are not under the law, based on Romans 6 and a host of other Scriptures.

That Christians traditionally meet for worship and fellowship on sundays is based on at least two things in Scripture: in honor of the day in which Jesus rose from the dead, and the example of the early church (I don't have a concordance with me right now...it's that verse that says "And on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread...", or something like that). There may be other Scriptural reasons, but that's all I can think of right now.

[keypurr]

swanca99 quote: That Christians traditionally meet for worship and fellowship on sundays is based on at least two things in Scripture: in honor of the day in which Jesus rose from the dead, and the example of the early church (I don't have a concordance with me right now...it's that verse that says "And on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread...", or something like that). There may be other Scriptural reasons, but that's all I can think of right now.

The first Christians keep the Sabbath. They were Jews. When Paul went to the Gentiles he did not chang it either. The vers you quoted also has in it "the lights were on in the upper chamber" indicating that it was a Saturday night, after sabbath meeting. Remember the day starts at sundown, so when it got dark on saturday the first day of the week started.
There is NO scripture changing the sabbath day. There are no scripture showing services being held on the first day of the week.

[swanca99]

So what you are saying is that the first day of the week was actually the seventh day of the week, not the first day of the week. It was just called the first day of the week because it was the evening of the seventh day.

But since the day started at sundown, it was actually the first day of the week.

So that would mean that it wasn't the sabbath anymore, right?

Did these guys get credit for coming together to break bread on the seventh day, even though it was the first day?

[swanca99]

Originally posted by keypurr


There is NO scripture changing the sabbath day.


I agree. Sunday is NOT the sabbath.

[keypurr]

The point I was trying to make is that They met on the Sabbath and it flowed into the first day of the week. You used the verse to somewhat establish a new day of worship. I understood you that way.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

and how in the world does one describe the setting aside a day for rest as something pertaining to morality? there is nothing moral or immoral about the 7th day sabbath.The fourth commandment is a divine law of the same character as "thou shalt not murder", so if you consider the other nine commandments are "moral laws", then the fourth is, too.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

The first Christians keep the Sabbath.

including Paul?


They were Jews. When Paul went to the Gentiles he did not chang it either.

better double check the verses i gave to Ya'nar#1, they were all from Paul.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by elohiym

The fourth commandment is a divine law of the same character as "thou shalt not murder", so if you consider the other nine commandments are "moral laws", then the fourth is, too.

the 10 comandments contains "moral laws" but not every command in it is a "moral law". "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God" is not a "moral law" either.

just because there is one moral law within the 10 commandments does not mean that every command of the 10 is a moral law.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

the 10 comandments contains "moral laws" but not every command in it is a "moral law". "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God" is not a "moral law" either.

just because there is one moral law within the 10 commandments does not mean that every command of the 10 is a moral law. Rather than go in circles...

Define "moral law".

[elohiym]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

including Paul?

better double check the verses i gave to Ya'nar#1, they were all from Paul. Paul absolutely kept the sabbath. It is rediculous to suggest he didn't obey the fourth commandment based on the scriptural evidence to the contrary.

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

Acts 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

In order for Paul to be speaking truthfully in those last two verses, he would have had to have kept the Sabbath.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by elohiym

Rather than go in circles...

Define "moral law".

a law pertaining to morality, i.e. right and wrong.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by elohiym

Paul absolutely kept the sabbath. It is rediculous to suggest he didn't obey the fourth commandment based on the scriptural evidence to the contrary.

1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

care to read through to the end of the verse?

1 Corinthians 9
20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law


Acts 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

In order for Paul to be speaking truthfully in those last two verses, he would have had to have kept the Sabbath.

when Paul was around the Jews, he acted like Jews. If he was with them, and they observed the Sabbath, he would observe the Sabbath with them. but around Gentiles, he did no such thing, for they were under no obligation to follow the Sabbath. Paul himself according to how the group around him acted in order to win both groups for Christ.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

a law pertaining to morality, i.e. right and wrong. Are you claiming that it was not wrong to break the Sabbath? If it was ever wrong to break the Sabbath, then the fourth commandment is a "moral law."

If you disagree, explain why.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by elohiym

Are you claiming that it was not wrong to break the Sabbath? If it was ever wrong to break the Sabbath, then the fourth commandment is a "moral law."

If you disagree, explain why.

i hold that observing a day in and of itself is not a right or wrong thing. for the people of Israel, the issue was obedience to the command of God. to disobey what God had said was wrong and thus, to break the Sabbath for them was also wrong. therefore, the Sabbath is not inherently right or wrong, but based on the commands of God, it can become such.

since believers have been freed from the law, whatever was under it does not apply to us. the moral principles that are right and wrong in and of themselves (murder, doing good to all etc.) still apply to us as they are not based on law.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

care to read through to the end of the verse?

1 Corinthians 9
20To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the LawAll that means is that Paul understood where his righteousness comes from. It does not mean that he didn't obey the fourth commandment. A person who obeys any of God's laws is not under the law unless they actually believe that their righteousness is dependent on them keeping those laws.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

when Paul was around the Jews, he acted like Jews. If he was with them, and they observed the Sabbath, he would observe the Sabbath with them.Great! You acknowledge that Paul did keep the Sabbath, at least sometimes.Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

but around Gentiles, he did no such thing, for they were under no obligation to follow the Sabbath. That is conjecture on your part. Scripture paints a different picture of Paul than you do...

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by elohiym

All that means is that Paul understood where his righteousness comes from. It does not mean that he didn't obey the fourth commandment. A person who obeys any of God's laws is not under the law unless they actually believe that their righteousness is dependent on them keeping those laws.

on the contrary, it distinguishes himself in a very direct way from Israel. observance of the law was absolutely essential for Israel. it was not an option. they were under the law and were required to follow it out perfectly. Israel knew that salvaiton was not dependent on keeping the law but was through faith in God. but they also knew they were under the law and obedience of it was required of them. it was not optional, but required by God.


Great! You acknowledge that Paul did keep the Sabbath, at least sometimes.

yes, sometimes.


That is conjecture on your part. Scripture paints a different picture of Paul than you do...

Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

who was he preaching to? the jews. and where would the jews be on the sabbath? in the temple. is it really any wonder that Paul then went to the temple on the Sabbath to preach to the jews? not at all. does this mean he believed he was under obligation to observe the sabbath and that ceasing to observe it would be a violation of God's command? no it does not.

the part of the verse about the gentiles means that they were also present at the temple and not believers. they believed one still had to go through Israel to be saved. they had not yet accepted Paul's gospel.


Acts 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

same as above.


Acts 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

of course it was his manner, since he was trying to reach the Jews who would've been at the synagogue each week. but we cannot hold that Paul believed the Sabbath was required to be observed simply on the basis that he was at the temple on the Sabbath and that he had done this in a regular manner.


Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

still the same as above.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

i hold that observing a day in and of itself is not a right or wrong thing.Why do you think God required people be put to death for Sabbath breaking, but not coveting?
Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

for the people of Israel, the issue was obedience to the command of God. to disobey what God had said was wrong and thus, to break the Sabbath for them was also wrong. therefore, the Sabbath is not inherently right or wrong, but based on the commands of God, it can become such.If it was wrong to break the Sabbath, then based on your definition of "moral law" the fourth commandment is a moral law. When you concluded "therefore, the Sabbath is not inherently right or wrong", what on earth did you base that statement on? Your previous sentences did not create a basis for such a conclusion.Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

since believers have been freed from the law, whatever was under it does not apply to us. the moral principles that are right and wrong in and of themselves (murder, doing good to all etc.) still apply to us as they are not based on law. Are saying that it is not doing good to rest on the seventh-day? It is impossible for rest to be an amoral choice. It is either moral, immoral, or amoral. Pick one.

Also, why are at least nine of the ten commandments restated by Paul? I thought you claimed that several of the ten are not "moral laws", so why are they being restated for Gentiles.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

on the contrary, it distinguishes himself in a very direct way from Israel....Okay, GIT. You believe what you want. I gave scripture for what I believe. You offer conjecture.

I enjoy the Sabbath, and I will continue to enjoy it, here and on the new earth as it is written in Isaiah.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by elohiym

Why do you think God required people be put to death for Sabbath breaking, but not coveting?

technically the punishment for all sin is death. as to why he had the punishments of the law regarded as he did, it to me indicates that the Sabbath was to be held in a higher esteem for them than coveting. bottom line however, it's God's law for Israel and he could set the penalites as he decided fit.


If it was wrong to break the Sabbath, then based on your definition of "moral law" the fourth commandment is a moral law.

no, for it to be a moral law, it must be wrong in and of itself, not because someone says it is wrong. to not observe the Sabbath was wrong because God said they had to observe it, not because of anything inherent in the Sabbath.


When you concluded "therefore, the Sabbath is not inherently right or wrong", what on earth did you base that statement on? Your previous sentences did not create a basis for such a conclusion.

see above.


Are saying that it is not doing good to rest on the seventh-day?

for the people of Israel, it was good. for us, it can be either good or bad. if we do it because we feel we have to and it becomes legalistic, it is bad. if we do it because we choose to honor God through that, it is good.


It is impossible for rest to be an amoral choice. It is either moral, immoral, or amoral. Pick one.

if God commands rest, then it becomes the moral (or right) thing to do. if he commands not to rest, then rest would be amoral (or wrong). rest in and of itself is not moral or amoral.


Also, why are at least nine of the ten commandments restated by Paul? I thought you claimed that several of the ten are not "moral laws", so why are they being restated for Gentiles.

God is to be worshiped regardless of whether he commands it or not. the same goes for not stealing, not coveting, not lusting etc. these are all things that are right in and of themselves. whether someone commands them or not, we should do them.

the sabbath however is distinct as resting is not right or wrong in and of itself.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by elohiym

Okay, GIT. You believe what you want. I gave scripture for what I believe. You offer conjecture.

i explained away the scriptures you used.


I enjoy the Sabbath, and I will continue to enjoy it, here and on the new earth as it is written in Isaiah.

where did i ever say one could not enjoy the Sabbath? i am arguing against the idea that one must observe the Sabbath. i have not yet jumped onto the ship that one is commanded not to observe the sabbath, however, i strongly oppose the idea that one is required to observe it.

[elohiym]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

technically the punishment for all sin is death. as to why he had the punishments of the law regarded as he did, it to me indicates that the Sabbath was to be held in a higher esteem for them than coveting.You admit the Sabbath was to be held in higher esteem "for them" than coveting.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

no, for it to be a moral law, it must be wrong in and of itself, not because someone says it is wrong. to not observe the Sabbath was wrong because God said they had to observe it, not because of anything inherent in the Sabbath.How do you know that there isn't anything inherent in the Sabbath that makes it a moral law? That was pure conjecture, man.


Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

for the people of Israel, it was good. for us, it can be either good or bad. if we do it because we feel we have to and it becomes legalistic, it is bad. if we do it because we choose to honor God through that, it is good.You admit that obeying the fourth commandment is good, if it is not legalistic.

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

if God commands rest, then it becomes the moral (or right) thing to do. if he commands not to rest, then rest would be amoral (or wrong). rest in and of itself is not moral or amoral.You admit that if God commands rest, then it becomes moral. Therefore the fourth commandment is a moral law.


Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

God is to be worshiped regardless of whether he commands it or not. the same goes for not stealing, not coveting, not lusting etc. these are all things that are right in and of themselves. whether someone commands them or not, we should do them.

the sabbath however is distinct as resting is not right or wrong in and of itself. But you stated previously...Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

the 10 comandments contains "moral laws" but not every command in it is a "moral law". "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God" is not a "moral law" either.It appears to me that you are selectively deciding which laws are "moral" and which laws are not. Why don't you list the moral laws in the ten commandments, and then list the amoral laws in the ten commandments, so we can see what you think is moral.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by elohiym

You admit the Sabbath was to be held in higher esteem "for them" than coveting.

in terms of punishment under their law, yes. in terms of sin, they were equal as both would condemn a man to death.


How do you know that there isn't anything inherent in the Sabbath that makes it a moral law? That was pure conjecture, man.

because there is nothing inherent in rest that makes it good or bad. unless one is commanded to do it, rest is neither "good" or "bad" in and of itself. it may have good things about it but it could also be used in a bad way. it itself is neutral until someone commands it to be done. then it is good to do it but only because of obedience and bad not to do it because of disobedience.


You admit that obeying the fourth commandment is good, if it is not legalistic.

i admit that taking a day of rest one day a week, if not legalistic, can have good effects. it in and of itself is neither good nor bad.


You admit that if God commands rest, then it becomes moral. Therefore the fourth commandment is a moral law.

for Israel, observing the 4th commandment became a issue of morality yes. but not because of what the Sabbath itself was. it was because God had commanded it and that meant obedience.

for the Sabbath to be a moral law, it would have to be something one knows one should do regardless of a command. murder is wrong whether someone tells you its wrong or not. the same goes with lying and stealing. these are always wrong before someone tells you not to do them. the Sabbath however is not like them. it is only to be observed when one commands it. it is not innate in us to set aside a day for rest. it is not something we know we should follow, but only after we are told to follow it.


But you stated previously...It appears to me that you are selectively deciding which laws are "moral" and which laws are not. Why don't you list the moral laws in the ten commandments, and then list the amoral laws in the ten commandments, so we can see what you think is moral.

all of the 10 commandments are "moral". they are not all "moral laws".

murder is a moral law, the sabbath is not. murder is wrong and has always been wrong regardless of a commandment. the sabbath is only wrong when one has commanded it.

a moral law is something that is wrong all the time, before someone commands it or commands against it. it is to be done or not done whether someone commands it or not. if God never said "do not murder" murder would still be wrong. if God never said "you shall honor the Sabbath" then the Sabbath would not be something we should honor.

see the difference?

[keypurr]

GIT quote: a moral law is something that is wrong all the time, before someone commands it or commands against it. it is to be done or not done whether someone commands it or not. if God never said "do not murder" murder would still be wrong. if God never said "you shall honor the Sabbath" then the Sabbath would not be something we should honor

How can you tell if something is wrong? How would you know murder is wrong?

God set the rules of right and wrong. The 10 commandments are his rules and they are moral laws.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

How can you tell if something is wrong? How would you know murder is wrong?

God set the rules of right and wrong. The 10 commandments are his rules and they are moral laws.

murder is not wrong because God says it's wrong. it's wrong regardless of whether he commands us to abstain from it or not.

God could not declare murder to ever be something "good". murder is always wrong, period.

even if God never gave us a command to not murder, murder is still wrong.

[keypurr]

GIT, why is murder is always wrong?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

GIT, why is murder is always wrong?

1. the character of God is righteous.
2. the character of God is unchanging.
3. thus, anything that agrees with the character of God is righteous and anything that disagrees with God's character is unrighteous.
4. according to the bible, murder is contrary to the character of God.
5. therefore, murder is unrighteous.
6. since God's character is unchanging, murder has always been, is now, and will always be unrighteous.

OR

1. all truth is found in God
2. truth is unchanging as is God.
3. the truth is that murder is wrong.
4. thus, murder is always wrong.

OR

it is simply true that murder is always wrong because of the action itself. in other words, it's wrong because of what murder is.

[keypurr]

GIT quote:
1. the character of God is righteous.
2. the character of God is unchanging
The 10 commandments tell a lot about the character of God. They are his will.

But you still have not answered the question:
Why is murder wrong?
What makes it wrong?

If God's character is "unchanging", them his commandments are also. With the law as our schoolmaster we did not know what he expected from us. Christ came to magnify the law in our hearts.

When you think about the law of the 10 commandments, remember he said if you break one of them, you are guilty of breaking them all. So it is really ONE LAW. A law of love. so if you do not murder, why do you not keep his sabbath? Do you wish to be a lawbreaker? Not that it will get you saved, but it is his will for us to keep. Christ said in Matthew " in heaven, great is the man who teaches it".

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

The 10 commandments tell a lot about the character of God. They are his will.

But you still have not answered the question:
Why is murder wrong?
What makes it wrong?

first let me state that i reject the idea that it is wrong because God has somehow declared it wrong. i believe murder is wrong whether God commands it or not. if God ever declared murder to be right, it would not suddenly become right simply because God declared it so.

now, for your question. what makes murder wrong? nothing does. it is wrong because it is murder. nothing can make it right. it will always be wrong because of what murder is. in a sense, it is what the thing is that makes it wrong. the very nature of murder is why it is wrong. if murder were something else, something opposite what it was by nature, it wouldn't be wrong. but then it wouldn't be murder as we know it.


If God's character is "unchanging", them his commandments are also.

absolutely not. God can command a thing of people and take back the command at a later time. what doesn't change is the standard of right and wrong given from God's character.


With the law as our schoolmaster we did not know what he expected from us. Christ came to magnify the law in our hearts.

that is absolutely not true. the law showed us exactly what was required of us, namely perfection, and it showed why we could not keep it. that is why it led us to Christ who kept the law perfectly and freed us from the law.


When you think about the law of the 10 commandments, remember he said if you break one of them, you are guilty of breaking them all.

you are quoting the book of James and the poing goes to stifle the idea that one could ever attain righteousness through the law. i agree with that idea. but having been crucified with Christ, his righteousness has become my own. since Christ never sinned and never sins, so it is with me.


So it is really ONE LAW. A law of love.

explain how the Sabbath equates to a manifestation of love. how is setting aside a day an act of love?


so if you do not murder, why do you not keep his sabbath? Do you wish to be a lawbreaker?

on the contrary, i once was a lawbreaker. i was guilty of punishment to the full. but now, through Christ my debt has been paid in full. not just past sins, but also my present ones and my future ones are all paid for. any sin i commit is paid for by the blood of Christ. that is why nothing can seperate me from the love of Christ.


Not that it will get you saved, but it is his will for us to keep. Christ said in Matthew " in heaven, great is the man who teaches it".

Christ preached the law to those under the law. i am not under law, but grace. thus, his statement does not apply to me.

furthermore, you have not shown yet that keeping the law is God's will. i hold that our sanctification is his will, that being joyful always, praying continually and always giving thanks are also in his will. but you have not shown that keeping the law is part of his will, especially given that the body of Christ not under law, was never under law and never will be under law. this is the dispensation of grace in which the law and it's commandments have been abolished through the cross. we have been set free, crucified with Christ and raised in him anew. the law only has ahold of us as long as we are alive. we have died, therefore the law does not apply to us.

[keypurr]

If there is no more law, then what is meant in

Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Keep in mind this is the last book written in scripture, about 90AD.
Why is it mentioned?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

If there is no more law, then what is meant in

Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Keep in mind this is the last book written in scripture, about 90AD.
Why is it mentioned?

keep in mind who Revelation was written to as well. furthermore, the date of 90a.d. is not certain as some scholars lean towards a date sometime in the 60's.

but regardless of when, everything written in revelation deals with the kingdom and things prophesied. it does not deal with the mystery kept secret from the foundation of the world.

the only people not under law is the body of Christ. it should be no suprise then that the book of revelation commends those who keep the law because it's audience was one expected to keep the law.

do you agree with Paul that one is now not under the law? or do you believe that what is written in Revelation supercedes what he wrote?

[keypurr]

Romans 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. [\B]13And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15[B]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. [\B]18And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Sin=transgression of the law

Paul was a law keeper. Quote "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? [B]Certainly not!"

As a Christian we are expected to fulfill (keep) the law in our minds.
If you do not know that the commandments are God's will then there is nothing I can say to enlighten you. Christ did not "do away" with the law. He fullfilled it as we are all suppose to do. Not to be saved, but out of love for him.


Revelations 12:17And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why is Satan making war with commandments keepers?

Hebrews 8:7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Matthew 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Does not this tell us that keeping the law will not save you, but if you do keep it you will please him.

James said if you break one you break them all, that is also implied here by Jesus.

Notice romans 6 again
17But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, [B]yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. [\B]18And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Paul is saying "Thank God you obeyed the doctrine which you were delivered from". Early Roman Christians kept the law, including the Sabbath.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

Sin=transgression of the law

Paul was a law keeper.

no one keeps the law.

Romans 3
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God


Quote "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!"

As a Christian we are expected to fulfill (keep) the law in our minds.

and from where did you get this conclusion? the Christian is under no obligation in regards to the law. the verse you quoted states very explicitly "because we are not under law". how much clearer can it be?


If you do not know that the commandments are God's will then there is nothing I can say to enlighten you. Christ did not "do away" with the law. He fullfilled it as we are all suppose to do. Not to be saved, but out of love for him.

absolutely right, Christ did not do away with the law. but that was when the kingdom was still being preached to Israel. it was before Christ raised up Paul and gave him the dispensation of the grace of God in which we are not under law, but grace.


Revelations 12:17And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why is Satan making war with commandments keepers?


Satan opposes everything God has done. the commandments are part of what God has instituted (though not for us) to Israel and will be restated to them in the future. it should be no suprise that Satan opposes such a thing. however, Satan much more despises the gospel of grace for he did not see it coming and it was revealed because of his work in putting Christ to death. he despises grace with a passion, much more so than commandment observance.

but let me ask you, why do you keep attempting to put Christians into bondage and giving them the yoke of the law?

Galatians 5
1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

it is a beautiful truth that in the dispensation of the grace of God we are free from the law and have been justified freely by his grace. why would you seek to pervert it by putting the body of Christ under law and into a yoke of slavery? such a message is completely anti-Paul and thus anti-Christ.


Hebrews 8:7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Matthew 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Does not this tell us that keeping the law will not save you, but if you do keep it you will please him.

James said if you break one you break them all, that is also implied here by Jesus.

all quoted from non-paul books and thus from books not written to us. the doctrine contained within is written to a different group, not to us. Jesus absolutely preached the law, as did James and the author of Hebrews. but Paul did not. Paul preached grace, and you do not seem to grasp this yet.


Notice romans 6 again
17But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, [B]yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. [\B]18And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

the form of doctrine they obeyed from the heart was grace, not law.


Paul is saying "Thank God you obeyed the doctrine which you were delivered from". Early Roman Christians kept the law, including the Sabbath.

Paul is definately saying that, but it is not evidence that Christians kept the law and that would include the Sabbath.

Paul makes it very clear in his epistles that he is not under law.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law;

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

[Delmar]

Originally posted by keypurr

GIT, why is murder is always wrong? Killing is not always wrong. Murder is always wrong by definition.

[Delmar]

if it wasn't wrong it wouldn't be murder!

[keypurr]

The point I am trying to get to is what make murder wrong? I say because it is breaking the commandments.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

The point I am trying to get to is what make murder wrong? I say because it is breaking the commandments.

so until God commanded it not to be done, murder was neither right or wrong? and that it's not because of what murder is that it's wrong, but only because God commanded it not to be done?

[keypurr]

What make murder wrong?
Saying it is wrong because it is wrong is not an answer.

The moral standards were given to man in Eden. Man learned right from wrong when he ate the fruit from the tree of good and evil. Cane knew he was wrong when he killed Able.

Murder is wrong because GOD says it is. He sets the standards.

[keypurr]

GIT quote: but let me ask you, why do you keep attempting to put Christians into bondage and giving them the yoke of the law?

I have never attempted to put anyone in bondage. You are only in bondage if you think you MUST keep the law. I say you SHOULD keep the law. There is a big differance. It is grace that will save us, not the law.

[Ya'nar#1]

Originally posted by keypurr

Romans 6:12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. [\B]13And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15[B]What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. [\B]18And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Sin=transgression of the law

Paul was a law keeper. Quote "What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? [B]Certainly not!"

As a Christian we are expected to fulfill (keep) the law in our minds.
If you do not know that the commandments are God's will then there is nothing I can say to enlighten you. Christ did not "do away" with the law. He fullfilled it as we are all suppose to do. Not to be saved, but out of love for him.


Revelations 12:17And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Why is Satan making war with commandments keepers?

Hebrews 8:7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—9not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. 10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
13In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Matthew 5:19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Does not this tell us that keeping the law will not save you, but if you do keep it you will please him.

James said if you break one you break them all, that is also implied here by Jesus.

Notice romans 6 again
17But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, [B]yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. [\B]18And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Paul is saying "Thank God you obeyed the doctrine which you were delivered from". Early Roman Christians kept the law, including the Sabbath.


Quite right, keypurr!

Very often Paul spoke not only to Gentiles, but also to newly converted Jews. It seems to me his whole point was, that the relationship the law had to salvation drastically changed with the coming of Jesus. The Jews were having difficulty with how important a part the keeping of the law was since Christ's sacrifice. Furthermore, man-made laws had grown up around the Ten Commandments and the Law of Moses that was designed to keep the Hebrews from breaking the MAJOR laws of God. And the Gentiles--who were more or less aware of the law and how important it was pre-Christian days--wanted to know how to deal with the same matters we are confronting today.

Many of the same things that confused and upset them THEN, still upset people today!

So, simply put, Paul told them that "keeping the law" as Jews kept it in the past, with the same understanding the Jews had of what the law could do for them (attain salvation thru "works") was not correct. First, the law was never designed to save, its sole function was as a "schoolmaster." To TEACH men and women righteous verses wicked behavior. In other words, to bring mankind into a right relationship with God, and with each other, after they left Egypt for Canaan. With Jesus' coming and death He swept away these misunderstandings. Paul reminded these new converts that the law was "righteous" and "good." But only belief in Jesus and proof of a transformed life is able to "save to the uttermost."

The definition of "believe" comprises more than mere mental assent. The "devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19)

"What does it profit, my brothers, though a man says he has faith, and have not works? can faith save him? . . .Even so faith, if it is not accompanied by good works is dead, being alone." James 2:14, 17

So I don't ascribe to the idea that we can just set back, as Christians, and feel comfortable in the knowledge that regardless of how we behave, we will be saved no matter what. And I don't think there are many on this board who would challenge me on this. So, while it is true that we must NOT close our eyes, throw caution to the wind and push God right to the edge on the point of a faith without works; on the other hand, when we receive our transformed hearts and lives after the new birth baptism, we should give in to our every natural impulse to draw closer to God.

God Bless!

--Ya'nar :Princess:

[keypurr]

Ya'nar, your wording is much better than mine. Lawkeeping, out of love for our creator, is a builder of a deeper relationship with God. I do not claime to do it in the flesh, But in my heart I know that is what he wants from me. Because the law is LOVE. Love for him and love for mankind.

[Lighthouse]

keypurr-
We do not fulfill the law. We can't. Christ already did. We can't add to His finished work, in anything. Not in the fulfillment of the law, or in our salvation. He said, "It is finished." Do you think He was lying?

[keypurr]

No he was not lying, your misinterperting. We should all fulfill the law in the spirit.

Hebrews 8:10For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Lighthouse I think Israel (Spiritually) are Christians. But that is another thread sometime. We are considered sons of Abraham.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

What make murder wrong?
Saying it is wrong because it is wrong is not an answer.

then let me say that it is wrong because it is contrary to the character of God.


The moral standards were given to man in Eden. Man learned right from wrong when he ate the fruit from the tree of good and evil. Cane knew he was wrong when he killed Able.


but God had never given the command not to murder! so if murder is wrong because God says it's wrong, then before he says it's wrong, it's not wrong. but you here say Cain knew it was wrong before God had said it was wrong and that is obviously a contradiction.


Murder is wrong because GOD says it is. He sets the standards.

have you heard of Euthyphro's Dilemma?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

I have never attempted to put anyone in bondage. You are only in bondage if you think you MUST keep the law. I say you SHOULD keep the law.

but that is itself an obligation. you are saying that i ought to follow the law. Paul says we are under no such obligation.


There is a big differance. It is grace that will save us, not the law.

no one is arguing that salvation is based on the law. what is being argued is whether one is under obligation to follow the law.

[keypurr]

GIT What do you think happened when Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil? They became like God and his son, to know good from evil. Even though the sabbath is not mentioned untill Exodus 16, it is implied that it was part of their life then. Moses mentions it many times. Before they were written in stone. I bet they also knew the rest of the God's will also.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

GIT What do you think happened when Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil? They became like God and his son, to know good from evil.

but how could they when God hadn't commanded it?


Even though the sabbath is not mentioned untill Exodus 16, it is implied that it was part of their life then.

what part implies it?


Moses mentions it many times. Before they were written in stone. I bet they also knew the rest of the God's will also.

Moses first mentions it in Exodus 16 and it's only mentioned a couple of times between then and exodus 20 when it's given as part of the law. there is little indication that they knew the rest of God's will, though it's possible.

[keypurr]

Exodus 16:22And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 24And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

This is BEFORE the Ten Commandments were given.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

Exodus 16:22And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 24And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

This is BEFORE the Ten Commandments were given.

what point are you trying to make? that God had commanded them to observe the sabbath before he officially made it the law? that he had given them that law before he gave them all the rest and reaffirmed those?

either way it doesn't matter because we in the body of Christ are not under law in any sense, way, shape or form!

if you are making another point than i have missed it and i humbly ask you to restate it as clearly as possible.

[LightSon]

Originally posted by keypurr

Exodus 16:22And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning. 24And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein. 25And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field. 26Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none. 27And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none. 28And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws? 29See, for that the LORD hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place, let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

This is BEFORE the Ten Commandments were given.

You do realize that Moses' law was given to Israel, not to any other nation, and not to the church.

[keypurr]

I think that the true church is spiritual Israel. We are spiritual sons of Abraham. But that is another thread. The point I was trying to make is that God's expections from mankind was know before the law was given. Notice I said mankind.

Sometimes I think we use the term "not under the law" wrong. We tend to think that not being under the law it is OK to break it. It is true that the law will not save us, but it does represent what he would like us to follow. It boils down to Love God and Mankind. The law tell us how to do that from the heart. I do not feel that I am in bondage because I want to please him.

The sabbath commandment is the ONLY one that really tells us who the commandments are from. (Creator) It must have been very important to the creator to place them in the law. I certainly do not want to be the one to judge him.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

The point I was trying to make is that God's expections from mankind was know before the law was given. Notice I said mankind.

you said we can't know right and wrong unless God commands it. how did they know then what was required before the law?


Sometimes I think we use the term "not under the law" wrong. We tend to think that not being under the law it is OK to break it. It is true that the law will not save us, but it does represent what he would like us to follow.

do you really believe that all 613 commandments of the law are what God would like you to follow?


It boils down to Love God and Mankind. The law tell us how to do that from the heart. I do not feel that I am in bondage because I want to please him.

the law is powerless to change the heart.


The sabbath commandment is the ONLY one that really tells us who the commandments are from. (Creator) It must have been very important to the creator to place them in the law. I certainly do not want to be the one to judge him.

and if the same person who commanded it of one group now told the same group to stop observing it, wouldn't it be good to follow the new order and not the old?

[Lighthouse]

"the law is pwerless to change the heart."

Apparently we are powerless to prove the truth to keypurr. Maybe it's because he is powerless to see it?

[keypurr]

Lightson quote: You do realize that Moses' law was given to Israel, not to any other nation, and not to the church.
I guess you could say that Christ was also give to Israel. He came to save the lost sheep.

GIT, we are oblagated to love. He tells us how to do it in his law of stone.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr
GIT, we are oblagated to love. He tells us how to do it in his law of stone.

obligated by what? the law?

[Lighthouse]

"Obligated" to love? Dude, you're nuts!

[keypurr]

Did he not say to love everyone?

Are you saying that we have no obligations?

The law is only a schoolmaster. But the principals should be used.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

Did he not say to love everyone?

Are you saying that we have no obligations?

The law is only a schoolmaster. But the principals should be used.

so Christ is our motivation then right? not the law? why should we also follow the law if it was meant to lead us to Christ? i agree that the principles of right and wrong found in it are good but that is very different that suggesting we should follow them because they are of the law.

[keypurr]

GIT quote: so Christ is our motivation then right? not the law? why should we also follow the law if it was meant to lead us to Christ? i agree that the principles of right and wrong found in it are good but that is very different that suggesting we should follow them because they are of the law.

The law was not meant to lead us to Christ, only to show what he wanted from us. Love and respect for his father and mankind. We should keep them only because we love him enough to want to do so. If we were obligated then it would not be love. But Revelation says he is coming for thoes who keep his commandments. What do you think he meant by that?

[Lighthouse]

It was too meant to lead us to Christ! It pointed to Him! Even the Jews understand that it all points to the Messiah, even if they don't know who He is.

And you answered my point, we are not obligated. We live how we live out of love. The love He gave us. We love Him, because He first loved us. And He lives in us, and through us. We live, because He lives.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

The law was not meant to lead us to Christ,

Galatians 3
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.


Love and respect for his father and mankind. We should keep them only because we love him enough to want to do so. If we were obligated then it would not be love.

loving him is following what he says. if he says that we are no longer to observe the law (which is what this dispensation is all about) then that's what we should follow. to continue to observe the law when he has directed us not to is disobedience, not obedience.


But Revelation says he is coming for thoes who keep his commandments. What do you think he meant by that?

which verse are you referring to?

[keypurr]

I confess that I should not have objected to "Lead us to Christ"


GIT Quote: loving him is following what he says. if he says that we are no longer to observe the law (which is what this dispensation is all about) then that's what we should follow. to continue to observe the law when he has directed us not to is disobedience, not obedience.


He never said not to observe the law. He not only kept the law, he preached it. He ONLY said we are not UNDER the law. We are saved by GRACE. But that is no excuse to forget the law. We are suppose to live as HE lived. You are not disobediant if you keep his law in you heart and try to do them.

1 John 2
1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

[Lighthouse]

And what if he did command us to no longer keep the Sabbath, keypurr? Would you stop keeping it?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr
He never said not to observe the law. He not only kept the law, he preached it.

you are absolutely right, but this is because he himself was "born under the law".

Galatians 4
4But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law


He ONLY said we are not UNDER the law.

Jesus never said this while on earth.


We are saved by GRACE. But that is no excuse to forget the law.

Grace by definition means "without works". why should we then include the law into that when the law by definition is "works"?


We are suppose to live as HE lived. You are not disobediant if you keep his law in you heart and try to do them.

we are to live as he lived in regards to righteousness, right and wrong, morality, giving glory to God etc. but he was a man born under the law and we are not to model ourselves after him in that respect for we are clearly not under the law (Romans 7).

[keypurr]

Is baptism works?

[keypurr]

I believe I stated that we are NOT under the law, but that we should keep it. Not because we have to, but because we want to. The law is love, so is the spirit of God.

[keypurr]

lighthouse quote: And what if he did command us to no longer keep the Sabbath, keypurr? Would you stop keeping it?

Yes I would lighthouse, but he said the law will not change. Heaven and earth will pass away first.
:thumb:

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

Yes I would lighthouse, but he said the law will not change. Heaven and earth will pass away first.
:thumb:

Matthew 5
18"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

thus the question which needs to be asked is "what needed to be first be accomplished?"

[keypurr]

Matthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Plain and simple. We should keep his commandments out of love for him, til the world ends.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

Matthew 5:17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven

Plain and simple. We should keep his commandments out of love for him, til the world ends.

1st objection: he was speaking to Israel, there was no church or body of Christ in existence. the church was never given the command to observe the law.

2nd objections: he says "till all be fulfilled". if all was fulfilled then we should no longer observe the law.

[keypurr]

I think Christians are spiritual Israel.

[keypurr]

Grace does not wipe out the Law of God

Law and grace do not work in competition with each other but in perfect cooperation. The law points out sin, and grace saves from sin. The law is the will of God, and grace is the power to do the will of God. We do not obey the law in order to be saved but because we are saved. A beautiful text which combines the two in their true relationship is Revelation 14:12. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." What a perfect description of faith and works! And the combination is found in those who are "saints."

[keypurr]

Revelations 12:17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelations 22:14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

1 John 2:3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

1 John 3:22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1 John 5:2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

2 John 1:6And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
7For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 8Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 9Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1 Corrinthians 7:19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

John 15:10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.

Is that enough?

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by keypurr

I think Christians are spiritual Israel.
What you think doesn't make a difference to the truth.

[keypurr]

Truth will win. Prove all things.......

It's your life Lighthouse, you take your road, I'll take mine. I know I go in the direction that will lead me to him.

[Lighthouse]

No, you're not. You're going in the completely wrong direction.

[keypurr]

many are called, but few are chosen

[Lighthouse]

And narrow is the road. Have you ever wondered why you have so much room?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

I think Christians are spiritual Israel.

why?


Grace does not wipe out the Law of God

Law and grace do not work in competition with each other but in perfect cooperation. The law points out sin, and grace saves from sin. The law is the will of God, and grace is the power to do the will of God. We do not obey the law in order to be saved but because we are saved. A beautiful text which combines the two in their true relationship is Revelation 14:12. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." What a perfect description of faith and works! And the combination is found in those who are "saints."

Why should we follow the law of Israel when we are Gentiles?


Is that enough?

Ephesians 2
14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

15by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace

Colossians 2
14having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Galatians 5
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

25But now that faith has come,we are no longer under a tutor.

Romans 7
4Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

6But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles, the commands he gives us are from God. if he tells us we are released from the law, that it was abolished, that we died to it so we can serve another (another can never be the same thing) and that while we used to be under it, we no longer are, then i think we should listen to him and not put ourselves under the law.

if it was abolished, then it does not exist any more. if the courts abolish a law, then no officer can enforce it as if it were still there. if he (the officer) wants to live his life as if it were still there then thats one thing, but he has no basis for doing so and has no right to suggest that any one must or even should observe it as well.

also, keeping the commands of God does not necessarily mean keeping the Law of God. if it did then any command from God to stop observing the law would not make sense and be impossible. the commands of God are what he says, not what is written in the law. a command of God may be to observe the law, but that itself is not a law.

thus, when we see the term "keeping the commandments of God" we cannot assume it means the law. we must determine what the "commands of God" are for the present time period, for they have not always been the same. if all that is commanded of us is love, then that is all we are obligated to obey. as i see it, the commands of God for this time period is to just love. we are to love God and love others, that is all. Paul explains in detail what this entails (being kind, forgiving, being generous etc.) in his letters.

[keypurr]

Is not God the God of ALL? Do you really think he has one set of rules for these people and another set for thoes?

Christians are heirs to the promise. We too are called sons of Abraham. The differance between the Ten Commandments of old and the Ten Commandments of today is obediance from the heart. Keeping them in your heart to perfect love.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

Is not God the God of ALL? Do you really think he has one set of rules for these people and another set for thoes?

yes, is that so hard to believe?


Christians are heirs to the promise. We too are called sons of Abraham. The differance between the Ten Commandments of old and the Ten Commandments of today is obediance from the heart. Keeping them in your heart to perfect love.

heirs to the promise WITHOUT Israel which is DIRECTLY CONTRARY to what was prophesied. has God only begun looking at the heart since the time of Christ? did not obedience from the heart matter before?

[keypurr]

Yes it did but the traditions of the people did not see that. that is why Christ came, to show the way.

[keypurr]

One reason why I think Christians are spiritual Israel

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Here is another

Colossians 3:11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
KJV

There are more.

[Ya'nar#1]

Forgive my cutting in at this point, but I have something to add to this discussion.

Concerning "Spiritual" Israel today . . .

The formal rejection of Jesus by the Jews, as a nation, marked the close of their last opportunity as the special agents of God for the salvation of the world. It was "last of all" that God "sent unto them his son," according to Christ's own words (Matt. 21:37), but they "caught him" and "slew him" (v. 39). Thereafter, God "let out his vineyard [see Isa. 5:1-7] unto other husbandmen" who would "render him the fruits in their seasons" (see Matt. 21:41). Upon His final departure from the sacred precincts of the Temple, Jesus said, "Your house is left unto you desolate" (Matt. 23:38). The day befor, He had called it "my house" (ch. 21:13), but after the Jews rejection He no longer owned it as His. Jesus own verdict was, "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Matt. 21:43; cf. 1 Peter 2:9, 10).


The transition from literal Israel to spiritual Israel, or the Christian church, is the subject of Romans 9-11. Spiritual Israel includes both Jews and Gentiles (Rom. 9:24).

God Bless!

--Ya'nar :Princess:

[Ya'nar#1]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth



Why should we follow the law of Israel when we are Gentiles?




GIT, think about this for a moment:

The Sabbath has nothing in it of a typical or ceremonial nature, FOR IT WAS INSTITUTED BEFORE MAN SINNED, and hence belongs to a time when in the very nature of things a type or shadow could not exist.

The laws and institutions which existed before man's fall were primary in their nature. They grew out of the relation between God and man, and man and man, and were such as would always have remained if man never had sinned, and were not affected by his sin. In other words, they were in the naure of things immutable and eternal. Ceremonial and typical laws owed their origin to the fact that man had sinned. These were from dispensation to dispensation subject to change: and these, and these only, were abolished at the cross. The Sabbath law was a primary law, and therefore immutable and eternal.

The Sabbath was instituted in the beginning, at the conclusion of the first week of time. And although it was called "the seventh day" and not the "Sabbath" specifically in Genesis, when we read the wording of the 4th commandment we find both these usages are synonomous:

EXODUS 20:10, 11 "But the SEVENTH DAY IS THE SABBATH of the Lord thy God . . . For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and RESTED THE SEVENTH DAY: wherefore the Lord BLESSED the SABBATH DAY, and hallowed it."

So "seventh day" and "Sabbath" day of the 4th commandment mean the same thing.

And ask yourself this: Why would God make holy this special day, naming Him especially as its Creator, if He didn't mean for mankind to recognize and honor it, and Him, by "resting"?

God Bless,

--Ya'nar

[keypurr]

Ya'nar#1, my friend, I could not have said it better. I think man knew what was expected of him in Eden.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr

One reason why I think Christians are spiritual Israel

Ephesians 3:6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

that they are members of one body shows that there is no longer a distinction between Jew and Gentile. this verse says that both groups (Israel and the Gentiles) are together one new thing in Christ. they are not one thing in Israel, but in Christ. the Gentiles are not now members of Israel, in body in her, but one body together in Christ.


Colossians 3:11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
KJV

If there is neither Jew nor Gentile, then how can we be Israel? to be a part of Israel is to be a Jew. but Paul says there is no longer Jew or Gentile. both have disappeared into what is the body of Christ. he says both groups are gone and done away with. in Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile, but only Christ.