Where are we as a nation going?

[drbrumley]

On 10/3/2002, Representative Ron Paul of Texas made a motion to declare war on Iraq. Chairman Henry Hyde rejected the motion by declaring:

"There are things in the Constitution that have been overtaken by events, by time. Declaration of war is one of them. There are things no longer relevant to a modern society. Why declare war if you don't have to? We are saying to the President, use your judgment. So, to demand that we declare war is to strengthen something to death. You have got a hammerlock on this situation, and it is not called for. Inappropriate, anachronistic, it isn't done anymore."

--Chairman Henry Hyde, 10/3/2002, in session of House of Representatives, during hearing on H.J. Res. 114, "AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF MILITARY FORCE AGAINST IRAQ", discussing Ron Paul's motion to declare war.

[elected4ever]

War is serious business. That is why the framers made it difficult to enter war by restricting the power of the president to act unilaterally and making congress accountable. In my estimation the whole war powers act is an unconstitutional piece of legislation. If the president can act unilaterally then we have an empirical presidency and the holder of the office is the emperor. The congress thus is nothing more than window dressing and unnecessary.

[Mr. 5020]

Originally posted by elected4ever

The congress thus is nothing more than window dressing and unnecessary. Sounds good to me.

[Gerald]

Originally posted by Mr. 5020
Sounds good to me. Up to the point that the "emperor" screws you, anyway...

[drbrumley]

bump

[Knight]

What do you think doc?

[BillyBob]

Where are we as a nation going?

Not towards a monarchy! [Thankfully]

[drbrumley]

What do you think doc?
To hell in a handbasket.

[drbrumley]

Not towards a monarchy! [Thankfully]Then I guess heaven will be the pits for you then, can't vote in heaven.

[Knight]

To hell in a handbasket.Well there is a revalation! :chuckle:

You will get no disagreement from me on that one.

[BillyBob]

Then I guess heaven will be the pits for you then, can't vote in heaven.

That statement shows how far over the edge you have gone. I'm sorry for that, Doc, I truely am. :(

[Knight]

That statement shows how far over the edge you have gone. I'm sorry for that, Doc, I truely am. :(BB what is wrong with Doc's point?

All he is saying is that God isn't going to use a democracy or a republic as His form of government.

[BillyBob]

BB what is wrong with Doc's point?

All he is saying is that God isn't going to use a democracy or a republic as His form of government.

The problem with Doc's point is that until God clearly takes control of our government, we are bound by the Constitution.

[elected4ever]

:up: The problem with Doc's point is that until God clearly takes control of our government, we are bound by the Constitution.

[drbrumley]

So we are ok to own slaves back in the early 1800's? If it is immoral now, why wasn't it then? Just because the Constitution said so?

[BillyBob]

So we are ok to own slaves back in the early 1800's? If it is immoral now, why wasn't it then? Just because the Constitution said so?

Ummmm, the Constitution has been Ammended since then. :doh:

Doc, make your stand here and now. Do you or do you not support the Constitution?

[elected4ever]

So we are ok to own slaves back in the early 1800's? yes

If it is immoral now, why wasn't it then? Can you spell political correctness/well.

Just because the Constitution said so?It did till it was amended.

[drbrumley]

Ummmm, the Constitution has been Ammended since then. :doh:

Doc, make your stand here and now. Do you or do you not support the Constitution?
Where have you been. I support the Constitution of the United States. But that does not mean that immorality gets a pass JUST because the Constitution says so.

[drbrumley]

yes

Can you spell political correctness/well.

It did till it was amended.

So your saying it was ok? and is morally ok to own a balck man cause he was black?

[elected4ever]

Where have you been. I support the Constitution of the United States. But that does not mean that immorality gets a pass JUST because the Constitution says so.Where in the Bible does it say that slavery is immoral?

[elected4ever]

So your saying it was ok? and is morally ok to own a black man cause he was black?If a person paid for a slave then the slave was property. It did not matter if that person was Black, White, Green, red or yellow. Not all slaves were Negro. They were just the most dominant and visible group. When an entity controls 100% of your productivity then you are a slave of that entity. Today, the United States controls 100% of your productivity. It is by there generosity that we are allowed to keep some of it but they even borrow money on your ability to produce.

[wiseman]

... When an entity controls 100% of your productivity then you are a slave of that entity.

This is a very loose definition of slavery. The Black American slave was a chattel slave defined "...as the absolute legal ownership of a person or persons, including the legal right to buy and sell them."

Your equation of the "modern American" as slave with Black American slave of the 18th and 19th century is just intellectually sloppy.

[elected4ever]

This is a very loose definition of slavery. The Black American slave was a chattel slave defined "...as the absolute legal ownership of a person or persons, including the legal right to buy and sell them."

Your equation of the "modern American" as slave with Black American slave of the 18th and 19th century is just intellectually sloppy.Sloppy? Get your head out of the sand. Tell me sir, What backs up the American dollar? Is it not the goods and services of the American people? Well, Who produces those goods and services? The federal government has the right to attach anything and everything you think you own and force you to produce in order to pay the federal debt if demanded by our creditors. There is nothing else to pay the debt with and you are 100% libel for the debt with 100% of the goods and services you produce. Any creditable analysis of our monetary and tax system verifies this. You are a slave sir. as well as me.

[wiseman]

Sloppy? Get your head out of the sand. Tell me sir, What backs up the American dollar? Is it not the goods and services of the American people? Well, Who produces those goods and services? The federal government has the right to attach anything and everything you think you own and force you to produce in order to pay the federal debt if demanded by our creditors. There is nothing else to pay the debt with and you are 100% libel for the debt with 100% of the goods and services you produce. Any creditable analysis of our monetary and tax system verifies this. You are a slave sir. as well as me.

As a "Modern American Slave" you work within the largest economy in the world and can travel freely throughout the world and participate or work in other economies. Further you can give up your citizenship and and become a citizen of another country at your leisure. Further still you are able to chose your government who 'oppresses you'.

By contrast the Black slaves were kidnapped from a different continent, carried across the ocean and forced to work until they were dead, sold or (rarely) granted freedom. They certainly could not move freely about. They could not choose to move to different plantation that offered a better benefits package... They definitely did not participate in any political process at any level that impacted their well being....

One, I suppose, can draw parallels between the "Modern American slave" plight or status and that of the historical BLack slave but it would have to be with a free hand and that would result in sloppy lines.

[elected4ever]

As a "Modern American Slave" you work within the largest economy in the world and can travel freely throughout the world and participate or work in other economies. Further you can give up your citizenship and and become a citizen of another country at your leisure. Further still you are able to chose your government who 'oppresses you'.

By contrast the Black slaves were kidnapped from a different continent, carried across the ocean and forced to work until they were dead, sold or (rarely) granted freedom. They certainly could not move freely about. They could not choose to move to different plantation that offered a better benefits package... They definitely did not participate in any political process at any level that impacted their well being....

One, I suppose, can draw parallels between the "Modern American slave" plight or status and that of the historical BLack slave but it would have to be with a free hand and that would result in sloppy lines. You have not answered the questions sir. You are ducking the issue. If any entity has authority over 100% of the goods you can produce and 100% of the services you can provide, what does that make you? Your willingness or unwillingness is moot to the question. If the entity allows you to keep a percentage of your goods and services to give you a felling of well being is also moot. We face the same plight as the Negro slave. How do we become free from the tyranny of our owners? Swapping one owner for another does not make us free.

[wiseman]

You have not answered the questions sir. You are ducking the issue. If any entity has authority over 100% of the goods you can produce and 100% of the services you can provide, what does that make you? Your willingness or unwillingness is moot to the question. If the entity allows you to keep a percentage of your goods and services to give you a felling of well being is also moot. We face the same plight as the Negro slave. How do we become free from the tyranny of our owners? Swapping one owner for another does not make us free.

It is not the 'authority' itself but the exercise of that 'authority' that may be enslaving; how many times now, have 100% of your goods and services been extracted from you by this 'authority'? (In true slavery the answer is: constantly)
Further in a democracy the government and its 'authority' is legitimized by the people, but slaves do not give their masters authority (in the same legitimizing manner)...

The ability to swap one owner for another in my estimation places you way beyond the Black slave...


That's all from me tonight -- I'm at the hospital working tonight and have some pressing issues to attend -- thanks for the time tonight, interesting chat will pick it up again later...

[Perceptive]

It is sad to see why so many of people in this nation are deceived beyond redemption. America is gone down hill and shall never rise above morality because she has chosen the evils of selfishness and lies and hatred. She is going to hell and utter destruction. No nation ever in written history has lasted past their rule and when America overstepped her bounds, she began a downward spiral and has been exposed to what she is all about. I shall not pray for this nation at all but I shall pray only for my family and my people to beware and not fall anymore into her wiles of deception. this is my observation and my present feelings.

[Granite]

We are so lost and adrift as a nation that the significance of Hyde's snide snap judgment is lost on most people.

[drbrumley]

Thats the key word, Kidnapped.

Slavery is immoral cause in the case of American Slavery, these blacks were KIDNAPPED and then brought here and sold to the highest bidder. Slavery as in someone commits a crime and then convicted and forced to pay thru thier services is is not what this is about. The wholesale kidnapping of people is IMMORAL.

Think I read somewhere that God ordered the death penalty for kidnappers.

[elected4ever]

We are so lost and adrift as a nation that the significance of Hyde's snide snap judgment is lost on most people.It is that most Americans don't care as lone as their bellies are full. Let the other guy worry about it.

[Neo-Puritan]

Where in the Bible does it say that slavery is immoral?

Chattel slavery, as was practiced in the United States prior to the War Between the States, represented the lowest, vilest form of the institution running afoul of numerous prohibitions of even the Mosiac Law ranging from how the slaves were acquired (via kidnapping) to holding them indefinitely to breaking apart married couples and even entire families. Admittedly, the Bible can be said to condone something closer to what we would think of indentured servitude, but even the Mosiac system is distinctively different from what was practiced within the United States.

[Neo-Puritan]

We are so lost and adrift as a nation that the significance of Hyde's snide snap judgment is lost on most people.

And because of this the march towards facism continues with many in the Religious Right cheering it along.

[Kass]

Where's the "I don't understand what Hyde meant" option? :)