The tithe and the offering

[Sold Out]

My pastor recently preached a sermon on the tithe and the offering. He said that the tithe was 10%, and that we tithe from our gross income. He said the offering was to be given only by a cheerful giver, and only on what God has prospered you with - not your earnings. In other words, if you win the lottery, you don't have to tithe on it, but if you feel in your heart that you want to give from it, then you give what you want.

I was never taught this before and wondered if any of you have been taught this?

[Emo]

Originally posted by Sold Out

[quote] He said that the tithe was 10%, and that we tithe from our gross income

This is typical church legalism. Churches, of course, rely on donations from their congregation to pay the electricity, gas, staff members, etc., & I completely understand that. But, to set a minimum specified amount (10%, tithe) is placing its members under rules that hinder a believers ability to freely develop spiritually. If you would like to donate 3%, 5%, 10%, or maybe even 12% doesn't really matter. The monetary offerings to your church should only be donated from a giving, gracious heart, not because someone told you that you have to do it or you won't receive all your due blessings from God. Jesus Christ died for the sins of man which could never be matched by someone's offerings to the church. His blood is of infinite value. When you accept Christ into your heart as your personal savior you are perfected, so why would anyone try to buy their way into heaven when there is nothing that they could possibly do to equal His amazing love sacrifice.


He said the offering was to be given only by a cheerful giver, and only on what God has prospered you with - not your earnings. In other words, if you win the lottery, you don't have to tithe on it, but if you feel in your heart that you want to give from it, then you give what you want.

Never heard of such a thing. He wants to place your regular income under the tithe, but if you receive some special additional income then you can give freely. This sounds backwards, if anything else. :confused:

He said the offering was to be given only by a cheerful giver

This is the one thing that I agree with.

[Turbo]

Sold Out, I have never heard that particular view taught, and it certainly is not a biblical teaching.

There's a lot to the tithing laws that churches generally don't teach and most Christians have never heard. I highly recommend you listen to Don't Tithe: Give more or less, but not 10%! (http://kgov.com/bel/2005/20050111-BEL007-24k.mp3). (The mp3 file is about 5MB and 30 minutes.)

Members of the Body of Christ are no more obligated to tithe than they are obligated to circumcise their sons or abstain from eating unclean meats.

But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:6-7

If Paul were only talking about windfalls and not earnings, he would not have mentioned reaping according to what is sown.

On a side note, you mentioned that your pastor says gross income that should be tithed. I take it he means pre-tax? What was someone who was in the 90% tax bracket (before the Kennedy tax cut) supposed to do?

[Turbo]

Good post, emo. :up:

[Emo]

Originally posted by Turbo

Good post, emo. :up:

Thanks :turbo:

Originally posted by Turbo
But this I say: He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully. So let each one give as he purposes in his heart, not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:6-7

:thumb:

[billwald]

It's legalism but we been doing it for 40 years and it never cost us anything important.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by billwald

It's legalism but we been doing it for 40 years and it never cost us anything important.

It does not have to be legalism if done with a motive of love and worship towards God, love for the lost, and love for the work of the kingdom and edification of believers.

Being dogmatic about gross vs net income, etc. smacks of legalism. The principle is to give cheerfully, systematically, proportionately according to our income (Pauline principles in Corinthians). Stewardship of time, talents, and treasures is a reflection of His lordship in our lives. It slays the god of mammon and greed. We do not give to get, but because we love Him and His people.

[Emo]

Originally posted by godrulz

It does not have to be legalism if done with a motive of love and worship towards God, love for the lost, and love for the work of the kingdom and edification of believers.

True, but if the tithe is consistently preached by the pastor as a requirement for fulfillment of the minimal amount of blessing from God, then it surely reeks of legalism. This is the problem with most churches. Haven't you heard the common message "Don't rob God of His 10%"

We do not give to get

Agreed, because the Spirit can forge a gracious heart.

[godrulz]

We are not to give under compulsion and guilt. However, a good pastor will teach principles of stewardship since Jesus and Paul emphasized them. Many believers selfishly squandor their lives ($ is the fruit of our labor) and do not seek first the kingdom of God, knowing He will take care of our needs vs greeds (Mt. 6; Phil. 4).

[julie21]

When Paul had the Macedonian church take up an offering for the church in Judea, they gave not out of a legalistic contract, but from their hearts. I don't know if they tithed or not, but even if hey had, it would have been direct from their love.
Giving should be proportianate, voluntary, cheerful and generous
[ 1Cor. 16:1-2; 2Cor. 8:1-9:13].

Proportianate is a good word to use re the tithe. Whilst some adhere to the line that if we 'tithe', we are holding to the OT legalistic system, which they feel may 'bind' us and so oppose the NT teachings of Christ bringing freedom from legalism, can't it merely be that an individual who in NT times did not have very good accounting skills, work on the basic principle that he would give , counting out his offering according to how many fingers he had on his two hands? Thereby if he had 10 lots of whatever , he would give 1 lot as an offering.
Thus he would not be tithing out of a legalistic adherence, rather out of a basic mathematical concept.
Too simplistic an idea? Maybe huh?
I just believe that there wouldn't have been too many mathematically minded common worshippers back then, and we all learn to count on our 10 fingers firstly. Isn't the binary system still the most commonly used mathematical system today? Maybe that is why a lot of people tithe...10 is so much simpler.

[godrulz]

Tithing is a reasonable guideline. If people gave a tenth under the Law, why would we want to just tip under grace? Motive, not amount is the key.

[Sold Out]

These are my notes from the sermon regarding the tithe:

1. Biblical tithing was practiced by people for 2,513 years before there was ever a Bible to instruct them to do so (Gen 14:17-20).
2. Biblical tithing meant giving 10% of our income to God (Gen 28:22).
3. Biblical tithing is not something we wait to do (Exo 22:29,30). God said, "Thou shalt not delay".
4. Biblical tithing meant giving 10% of our earned income to God (Exo 23:16).
5. Biblical tithing meant bringing our tithe to the house of the Lord (Exo 23:19).
6. Biblical tithing meant the first of our earnings ought to go to God (Exo 34:26). In other words, the first thing we ought to do is tithe before we do anything else!
7. Biblical tithing is not something we give, but something we owe (Lev 27:30-34). God said, "the tithe...is the Lord's...these are the commandments”.
8. Biblical tithing is God's way of caring for His ministers (Num 18:20). God said, "I am thy part and thine inheritance”.
9. Biblical tithing is not our decision but God's decision (Num 18:21). God said, "I have given”.
10. Biblical tithing must come from the people of God and no other source (Num 18:24).


What do you think?

[godrulz]

You will likely be blasted for using OT verses (Law vs Grace).

Giving is a biblical principle (OT and NT).

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out

These are my notes from the sermon regarding the tithe:

1. Biblical tithing was practiced by people for 2,513 years before there was ever a Bible to instruct them to do so (Gen 14:17-20).
2. Biblical tithing meant giving 10% of our income to God (Gen 28:22).
3. Biblical tithing is not something we wait to do (Exo 22:29,30). God said, "Thou shalt not delay".
4. Biblical tithing meant giving 10% of our earned income to God (Exo 23:16).
5. Biblical tithing meant bringing our tithe to the house of the Lord (Exo 23:19).
6. Biblical tithing meant the first of our earnings ought to go to God (Exo 34:26). In other words, the first thing we ought to do is tithe before we do anything else!
7. Biblical tithing is not something we give, but something we owe (Lev 27:30-34). God said, "the tithe...is the Lord's...these are the commandments”.
8. Biblical tithing is God's way of caring for His ministers (Num 18:20). God said, "I am thy part and thine inheritance”.
9. Biblical tithing is not our decision but God's decision (Num 18:21). God said, "I have given”.
10. Biblical tithing must come from the people of God and no other source (Num 18:24).


What do you think?

This "Ten Commandments of Tithing" is proof positive that your pastor is preaching law. Whether or not he is doing so intentionally is another question.

His comment about giving a portion of lottery winnings strikes me as funny. I would be willing to gamble myself that your pastor considers the lottery to be sinful and winnings from it t be ill gotten gain and yet he doesn't mind if you want to cut him in on the proceeds. :chuckle:

Resting in Him,
Clete

[billwald]

Tithing doesn't increase your net income. It causes you to be satisfied to shop at the "Good Will" and "dent can" stores.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Sold Out

These are my notes from the sermon regarding the tithe:

1. Biblical tithing was practiced by people for 2,513 years before there was ever a Bible to instruct them to do so (Gen 14:17-20).The same could be said about circumcision. Are we as members of the Body of Christ required to circumcise our sons?

Animal sacrifice was practiced in Adam's day. Should we sacrifice animals today?

4. Biblical tithing meant giving 10% of our earned income to God (Exo 23:16).This contradicts what you said in your first post about offerings from earned income and tithes from windfalls.

7. Biblical tithing is not something we give, but something we owe (Lev 27:30-34). God said, "the tithe...is the Lord's...these are the commandments”.In other words, the tithe is of the law.

Are you under the law, Sold Out?

8. Biblical tithing is God's way of caring for His ministers (Num 18:20). God said, "I am thy part and thine inheritance”.Tithing supported the Levites, the priesthood of Israel.

Paul never mentioned a requitement to tithe when he spoke about giving.

9. Biblical tithing is not our decision but God's decision (Num 18:21). God said, "I have given”.Contrast this with Paul's instruction on giving:

Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 2 Corinthians 9:7

[Turbo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Tithing is a reasonable guideline. Then why don't churches that say this teach people to use a third of their tithe to directly help those in need (Deut 14:28, 26:12), and to have a big feast every year and pay for it out of their tithe? (Deut 14:22-23, 26)

[Turbo]

Originally posted by godrulz

You will likely be blasted for using OT verses (Law vs Grace).Do you not agree that the tithe is of the law?

Giving is a biblical principle (OT and NT). But the tithe is no more a part of Paul's gospel than circumcision.

[Clete]

Oh yeah! Turbo is on a role!

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Turbo




This contradicts what you said in your first post about offerings from earned income and tithes from windfalls.
[/list]

No, it doesn't contradict - the tithe is from earned income and offering is over and above the tithe or giving from what God has prospered with.

OH, BTW, my pastor didn't use the analogy of winning the lottery, I came up with that analogy. Believe me, he would NEVER mention the lottery or gambling!!!!

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out
OH, BTW, my pastor didn't use the analogy of winning the lottery, I came up with that analogy. Believe me, he would NEVER mention the lottery or gambling!!!!

I was hoping that was the case! :chuckle:

Your presentation of this issue seems a bit neutral. Do you agree with your pastor on this or are you undecided or what?

It seems that point number 7 alone would prove beyond any question that such teaching is legalism. Wouldn't you agree?



Resting in Him,
Clete

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Sold Out

No, it doesn't contradict - the tithe is from earned income and offering is over and above the tithe or giving from what God has prospered with. Oops! You're right. I had gotten it mixed up in my head since I read it yesterday. Sorry. :o

But, as I posted yesterday, Paul taught that we are to give with a cheerful heart from our earned income.

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Clete



Your presentation of this issue seems a bit neutral. Do you agree with your pastor on this or are you undecided or what?

It seems that point number 7 alone would prove beyond any question that such teaching is legalism. Wouldn't you agree?



Resting in Him,
Clete

To be honest, I would have to say I'm riding the fence on this one. I don't give a full 10%, although it's close, but I do feel guilty for not giving a full 10%. I do feel like I give in other areas, such as opening my home every week for bible study, etc.

There are certain aspects of the OT law that we are under, such as the moral and civil laws (ex. marriage, divorce, adultery, etc).

I Cor 9:13, 14 says, "Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

[Emo]

Originally posted by Sold Out

To be honest, I would have to say I'm riding the fence on this one. I don't give a full 10%, although it's close, but I do feel guilty for not giving a full 10%.

Are you a "cheerful giver"? If you are, then the amount given is irrelevant. Please, don't feel guilty, but if you do, then the obligation to the tithe is the cause which in turn hampers your Spiritual development. Do you think that God would want you to feel guilty? I surely don't think so.
Now, do you see the problem with legalism because it seems clear to me & others as well.

I do feel like I give in other areas, such as opening my home every week for bible study, etc.

You open your home every week for bible study & that is awesome & I think God would agree. I have seen some of your other posts in the past while running through different threads & it seems you have a good understanding of grace. Remember, the Lord wants your heart, first & foremost, & everything else falls into place.

There are certain aspects of the OT law that we are under, such as the moral and civil laws (ex. marriage, divorce, adultery, etc).

No, you are a member of the Body of Christ which is not subject to the law.

I've quoted this Scripture before, but here it goes again.........

Galatians 2:19-21

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

God bless

[Jefferson]

Sold Out:

For decades I've attended churches that taught tithing. But not once
have I heard those pastors teach on the folowing verses:

Deuteronomy 14:26 - "And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever
thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for
strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat
there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine
household,"

That verse shows that under certain circumstances a person is supposed
to take his tithe and spend it on himself for his own pleasure. Now
why haven't I ever heard that taught before?

Deuteronomy 14:28 - "At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth
all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay [it] up
within thy gates"

"Within thy gates" implies giving within your own community or perhaps
to your own church. But "at the end of three years" means that only
1/3rd of your tithe should be given this way. What about the other
2/3rds? Well, what else could it mean other than to give it OUTSIDE
"the gates?" In other words, 2/3rds of your tithe should be given to
national or international ministries. Now why haven't I ever heard
that taught before?

Numbers 18:26 - "Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When
ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you
from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave
offering of it for the LORD, [even] a tenth [part] of the tithe."

That verse shows that churches themselves should tithe to other
ministries instead of hoarding it all for themselves. Hmmmm. Now why
haven't I ever heard that taught before?

You should tell your pastor that you'll start tithing just as soon as he preaches on ALL the tithing verses, not just the ones that pad his church's bank account.

[Poly]

Originally posted by Jefferson

That verse shows that churches themselves should tithe to other
ministries instead of hoarding it all for themselves. Hmmmm. Now why
haven't I ever heard that taught before?

I think Turbo's waiting for the answer to that question as well.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out

To be honest, I would have to say I'm riding the fence on this one. I don't give a full 10%, although it's close, but I do feel guilty for not giving a full 10%. I do feel like I give in other areas, such as opening my home every week for bible study, etc.
It's excellent that you don't feel guilty. Although I would consider the fact that you know that you don't give a full 10% is a red flag. Not that being aware of exactly how much you give is necessarily a problem, some people of very particular about their finances and would know to the penny just because of their particular personality. But generally speaking, I have found that when people are aware of the percentage figure that they have placed themselves under the law to one degree or another. Your absence of guilt leads me to think that you've avoided that up to this point but I dare say that with your pastor preaching such sermons, that won't be the case for long. I’ll pray that I’m wrong on that.

There are certain aspects of the OT law that we are under, such as the moral and civil laws (ex. marriage, divorce, adultery, etc).
Emo has this right, you are not under any portion of the law whatsoever. Remember what is said about trying to partake of just part of the law...

Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

The law is very much an all or nothing prospect.
Things like murder, rape, adultery, stealing and other issues of morality are not wrong because of the law. And more importantly, if you do or don't do something because there is a rule somewhere that says you should or shouldn't do it then you've received your reward in full. And more important even than that, if you are attempting to keep from sinning by following a set of rules then you WILL fail and fail miserably. You cannot have victory over sin by following the law. In fact YOU cannot have victory over sin at all! You must die that He might live His life through you. This is the only ground upon which real Spiritual growth can occur. The law is of the flesh, in which no good thing dwells but the Spirit gives life.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

I Cor 9:13, 14 says, "Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.
There is more than one way that this can happen. This verse cannot be used to say that you are commanded to give money to your church and certainly a 10% tithe cannot be argued from this text.
I think it is perfectly appropriate to give money to your church in support of its ministry and if you want to give 10% then that's great too, but if you are doing it to get, maintain, or retain a blessing from God, then I'll introduce your to Jesus and He'll set you free.

John 8:36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Clete
Things like murder, rape, adultery, stealing and other issues of morality are not wrong because of the law.




Resting in Him,
Clete

I would have to disagree with this. We know what sin is because of the law. (Rom 3:20). The law is a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.

If you were pulled over for speeding, but there was no speed limit posted, you wouldn't know what you did wrong, right?

I am in no way saying my salvation depends on keeping the law - I am only saying that the law is necessary to bring someone to Christ because they have to know how they have offended God.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out

I would have to disagree with this. We know what sin is because of the law. (Rom 3:20). The law is a schoolmaster that brings us to Christ.
I agree that we know what is wrong because the law tells us but it is not wrong BECAUSE of the law. If it were then murder would not have been wrong until the law came which is not the case.

If you were pulled over for speeding, but there was no speed limit posted, you wouldn't know what you did wrong, right?
Speed limit laws are arbitrary and are not moral laws and so this isn't the best analogy. As I said above, what is moral is not moral BECAUSE of the law but because of God. The law does teach right and wrong but it is not the genesis of it.

I am in no way saying my salvation depends on keeping the law - I am only saying that the law is necessary to bring someone to Christ because they have to know how they have offended God.
But once you're a believer the law has no part, right?
Look at the rest of the passage that you quoted from above...
Rom. 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

And elsewhere…

Gal.3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Note in verse twenty of Rom. 3 the phrase "the law is the knowledge of sin". Does that sound familiar?
The law is a continuation of the ministry of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. In fact, the law IS the knowledge of good and evil, which is the very point you've made in your post.
Don't partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; don't partake of the law! Instead, LOVE GOD! That really is what this whole thing boils down too; will you do rightly because there is a rule that says you must (the law) or will you do rightly because of the law of love? They are not the same thing! They are literally as different as the flesh is from the Spirit. They simply couldn't be more diametrically apposed. One is death the other life. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had a ministry of death as did the law, but the Spirit brings life.

"...therefore choose life,"!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Emo]

Originally posted by Clete

Note in verse twenty of Rom. 3 the phrase "the law is the knowledge of sin". Does that sound familiar?
The law is a continuation of the ministry of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. In fact, the law IS the knowledge of good and evil, which is the very point you've made in your post.
Don't partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil; don't partake of the law! Instead, LOVE GOD! That really is what this whole thing boils down too; will you do rightly because there is a rule that says you must (the law) or will you do rightly because of the law of love? They are not the same thing! They are literally as different as the flesh is from the Spirit. They simply couldn't be more diametrically apposed. One is death the other life. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had a ministry of death as did the law, but the Spirit brings life.

"...therefore choose life,"!

Resting in Him,
Clete


:BRAVO::BRAVO:

:up::Clete:

[Clete]

Originally posted by Clete

It's excellent that you don't feel guilty. Although I would consider the fact that you know that you don't give a full 10% is a red flag. Not that being aware of exactly how much you give is necessarily a problem, some people of very particular about their finances and would know to the penny just because of their particular personality. But generally speaking, I have found that when people are aware of the percentage figure that they have placed themselves under the law to one degree or another. Your absence of guilt leads me to think that you've avoided that up to this point but I dare say that with your pastor preaching such sermons, that won't be the case for long. I’ll pray that I’m wrong on that.

:doh:

I misread your post Sold Out! I thought for some reason that you said that you didn't feel guilty about not having given a full 10%!

I'll bet this portion of my response was a bit confusing! Sorry about that!

[Sold Out]

I figured that's what you did...I got it!

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Turbo

Then why don't churches that say this teach people to use a third of their tithe to directly help those in need (Deut 14:28, 26:12), and to have a big feast every year and pay for it out of their tithe? (Deut 14:22-23, 26)

Were these not above and beyond the minimum tithe?

Practically, the church administration today exercises accountable stewardship and disperses funds for needs and ministry. There would be no accountability if many people directly gave individuals handouts because they are running around fleecing the flock. The root issue would not be dealt with and the squeaky wheel would get the grease at the expense of the humble, quiet person.

A church could have a kingdom party for the community or church with the funds. OT issues are obviously not identical nor reiterated for NT practice.

Guideline is not an identical parallel in every detail.

[docrob57]

I had a preacher who used to say that not tithing is stealing from God. He was a hardcore legalist.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Turbo

Do you not agree that the tithe is of the law?

But the tithe is no more a part of Paul's gospel than circumcision.

Tithe is the law, but it is one way to fulfill the Pauline principle of systematic, proportionate, generous giving? Are you more spiritual because you do not tithe? Is it just as legalistic to say you cannot tithe, but you can give 8% or 12%? The heart motive is the key. We do not foist tithing on people, but we should not condemn those who use it as a guideline for giving/stewardship. Is it more spiritual to tip God a token amount? to have bingos and bakesales to raise funds for ministry because no one feels a need to put the kingdom first in a tangible way? Should Mormons and WWCofG outgive true believers? What are our priorities? Tipping is no more defensible than a legalistic OT tithe. If a believer can worship on Saturday, Sunday, or everyday (Paul), then it is not automatically wrong to give 10% or 50% or 5%, etc.

[Poly]

Originally posted by godrulz

Tithe is the law, but it is one way to fulfill the Pauline principle of systematic, proportionate, generous giving? Are you more spiritual because you do not tithe? Is it just as legalistic to say you cannot tithe, but you can give 8% or 12%? The heart motive is the key. We do not foist tithing on people, but we should not condemn those who use it as a guideline for giving/stewardship. Is it more spiritual to tip God a token amount? to have bingos and bakesales to raise funds for ministry because no one feels a need to put the kingdom first in a tangible way? Should Mormons and WWCofG outgive true believers? What are our priorities? Tipping is no more defensible than a legalistic OT tithe. If a believer can worship on Saturday, Sunday, or everyday (Paul), then it is not automatically wrong to give 10% or 50% or 5%, etc.

If a believer could truly give 10%, without any feelings of obligation and without there being any ties to them doing it based on a requirement that was under the law then that would be ok. The problem is that it's really impossible to seperate giving 10% without connecting it to the law and Paul warns us not to have any connection to the law. Even if you could do it cheerfully for a while, eventually you would be tempted to put yourself back under the law when a time came that you weren't able to give the 10% and felt guilty or possibly even resentful that your giving has now put you in a bind. Or maybe you could possibly give more but the 10% has become such a routine with you that you either become numb in your giving or end up patting yourself on the back thinking, "well, I've done my duty." So the wisest and safest thing for a believer to do is to wipe the whole concept of the tithe out of his head and simply ask "What can I give to my God out of my love for Him and out of my desire to see others love Him as well?"

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Poly

If a believer could truly give 10%, without any feelings of obligation and without there being any ties to them doing it based on a requirement that was under the law then that would be ok. The problem is that it's really impossible to seperate giving 10% without connecting it to the law and Paul warns us not to have any connection to the law. Even if you could do it cheerfully for a while, eventually you would be tempted to put yourself back under the law when a time came that you weren't able to give the 10% and felt guilty or possibly even resentful that your giving has now put you in a bind. Or maybe you could possibly give more but the 10% has become such a routine with you that you either become numb in your giving or end up patting yourself on the back thinking, "well, I've done my duty." So the wisest and safest thing for a believer to do is to wipe the whole concept of the tithe out of his head and simply ask "What can I give to my God out of my love for Him and out of my desire to see others love Him as well?"

Practical, pastoral platitudes, Poly. Principles placate 'pious' people.

I would say it is difficult, not IMPOSSIBLE to 'tithe' with freedom.

If I left it up to what I could afford or desire to give, I would have given a fraction of what I have over the years investing in eternal things. Financial advisors suggest we pay ourselves first, usually 10% savings. Spiritual advisors would do well to remind people to seek first the kingdom of God with our time, talent, and treasures, whatever individual form that takes (Mt. 6). Giving more than a tip to God is evidence of His Lordship over our pocketbook and freedom from the god of Mammon that rules our society.

[Sold Out]

I'm kind of siding with Godrulz on this topic....

[Poly]

Originally posted by godrulz


I would say it is difficult, not IMPOSSIBLE to 'tithe' with freedom.


So you advocate believers using the tithe as a guideline, even though you admit that it's difficult to do with freedom?

Originally posted by godrulz
If I left it up to what I could afford or desire to give, I would have given a fraction of what I have over the years investing in eternal things.

You gave something else other than what you "desired to give". If you didn't give it because you "desired" to than how was it given?

Giving more than a tip to God is evidence of His Lordship over our pocketbook and freedom from the god of Mammon that rules our society.
Recommending that one uses the tithe as a guideline puts that person at risk of putting himself back under the law in their giving rather than out of their loving relationship to God.

"Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." 2 Corinthians 9:7

Why does Paul say give what he has decided to give? He sure seems to be leaving the door wide open here. When you tell each man to decide what to give, you're going to get all kinds of amounts. Paul says not to give under compulsion. Why? Because he knows that it's hard to be cheerful when you are compelled to do something. Doing something out of compulsion isn't doing something from the heart which is ultimately what God is looking for.

[godrulz]

Heart and motive is the issue. The tithe was not explicitly rescinded in the NT. If I desire to give 10% without compulsion and cheerfully, this is my Pauline privilege. I do not foist my subjective, purposed amount on others in a legalistic manner. I am suggesting that my propensity to cheapness, want, and greed would allow me to rationalize giving to God as an after thought or trivial/token amount. I would never be able to afford it due to debt. When I give, regardless of the amount, my desire is to give to God in loving worship, not to men who may or may not use it for His glory. I concur that there is too much legalism in many churches on this matter. Giving is between an individual and God. We can teach PRINCIPLES of stewardship without coming under legalistic law.

[Clete]

Originally posted by godrulz

Heart and motive is the issue. The tithe was not explicitly rescinded in the NT.
Oh yes it was!

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

And the tithe was, without question, part of the law...

Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

If I desire to give 10% without compulsion and cheerfully, this is my Pauline privilege.
But as you said, it is virtually impossible to this without placing yourself under the law.

I do not foist my subjective, purposed amount on others in a legalistic manner. I am suggesting that my propensity to cheapness, want, and greed would allow me to rationalize giving to God as an after thought or trivial/token amount.
I would say, although I could be wrong, that this portion of what you've said indicates that you are operating under law. I do not think that such a statement could be made by someone who wasn't.
The whole point is that if you give something more than you really want to then what other motivation is there besides law? Your use of the intentionally denigrating term of "tipping God" is further evidence that you have, perhaps unknowingly, placed yourself under law.

I would never be able to afford it due to debt. When I give, regardless of the amount, my desire is to give to God in loving worship, not to men who may or may not use it for His glory. I concur that there is too much legalism in many churches on this matter. Giving is between an individual and God. We can teach PRINCIPLES of stewardship without coming under legalistic law.
Principles of law do not have any place in the life and practice of a member of the Body of Christ. You must die to the law, that is, you must crucify your flesh to which the law applies. The law is not to be used as a rule of life any more than it is to be used as a means of salvation or attaining to righteousness. That isn't the purpose of the law in the first place and when you attempt to use it in that manner you cheapen what has Christ has done at Calvary.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Turbo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Heart and motive is the issue. The tithe was not explicitly rescinded in the NT. But you agreed that the tithe is of the law, and the Body of Christ is freed from the law.

If I desire to give 10% without compulsion and cheerfully, this is my Pauline privilege.But unfortunately, you admitted that you don't do this when you said, "If I left it up to what I could afford or desire to give, I would have given a fraction of what I have over the years investing in eternal things."

I do not foist my subjective, purposed amount on others in a legalistic manner.Yes, you do! Every time the topic comes up, you say again and again that 10% is a good "guildline."

I am suggesting that my propensity to cheapness, want, and greed would allow me to rationalize giving to God as an after thought or trivial/token amount.And you are trying (and failing) to overcome this through keeping the law. And you're trying to get others to fall into the same trap.

We can teach PRINCIPLES of stewardship without coming under legalistic law. Yes, and that's what Paul was doing in 2 Corinthians 9:7. Notice that he didn't bring up the 10% "guideline."

[Servo]

Still, has anyone ever heard a preacher tell the congregation to do this?


Deuteronomy 14:

22"You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23And you shall eat before the LORD your God...

26And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

28"At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. 29And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Shimei

Still, has anyone ever heard a preacher tell the congregation to do this?


Deuteronomy 14:

22"You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23And you shall eat before the LORD your God...

26And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the LORD your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

28"At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. 29And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the LORD your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

I have!

Bob Enyart teaches this. That is to say, he brings it up when discussing tithing. He does not however teach that you should use this as a guide line any more than one should use 10% as a guide line for giving. Or at least I don't believe he does. I think he simply brings it up to show that most preachers and Bible teachers don't have a fat clue about what they're talking about and that most of them don't even know such verses exist in the Bible.

Personally, I usually avoid bringing these verses up because every time I have, I end up having to spend a lot of effort explaining that I'm not saying that one should modify their tithing practices. I want for people to stop tithing all together, not add aditional rules and regulations to how it is carried out.

The question I usually ask is simply, "Whatever amount you are currently giving, would you feel guilty if you didn't give it?" If the answer comes back "yes", then there is a problem. Giving 5% can be just as much a matter of legalism as giving 10%. It has totally to do with WHY one is giving it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Servo]

Originally posted by Clete

I have!

Bob Enyart teaches this. That is to say, he brings it up when discussing tithing. He does not however teach that you should use this as a guide line any more than one should use 10% as a guide line for giving. Or at least I don't believe he does. I think he simply brings it up to show that most preachers and Bible teachers don't have a fat clue about what they're talking about and that most of them don't even know such verses exist in the Bible.

Personally, I usually avoid bringing these verses up because every time I have, I end up having to spend a lot of effort explaining that I'm not saying that one should modify their tithing practices. I want for people to stop tithing all together, not add aditional rules and regulations to how it is carried out.

The question I usually ask is simply, "Whatever amount you are currently giving, would you feel guilty if you didn't give it?" If the answer comes back "yes", then there is a problem. Giving 5% can be just as much a matter of legalism as giving 10%. It has totally to do with WHY one is giving it.

Resting in Him,
Clete


:up:
I usually just give amounts that I feel lead to give. I don't even bother to figure out what percent of my income the amount is, nor do I care!

[Sozo]

Originally posted by godrulz

Heart and motive is the issue. The tithe was not explicitly rescinded in the NT. If I desire to give 10% without compulsion and cheerfully, this is my Pauline privilege. I do not foist my subjective, purposed amount on others in a legalistic manner. I am suggesting that my propensity to cheapness, want, and greed would allow me to rationalize giving to God as an after thought or trivial/token amount. I would never be able to afford it due to debt. When I give, regardless of the amount, my desire is to give to God in loving worship, not to men who may or may not use it for His glory. I concur that there is too much legalism in many churches on this matter. Giving is between an individual and God. We can teach PRINCIPLES of stewardship without coming under legalistic law.




I have a question for you...

Does your Pastor teach tithing (giving 10%) to the church you attend?

If your answer is yes, then why would you give "freely" to someone that brings the leaven of legalism to those who are not under compulsion? Why would you support those who are leading others away from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ to serve the Law? Why would you want to take the freedom that God has given us in Christ and make it an opportunity for the flesh?

[Emo]

Originally posted by Shimei

I usually just give amounts that I feel lead to give. I don't even bother to figure out what percent of my income the amount is, nor do I care!

It seems your contributions flow from a giving heart & that's the key.

Excellent! Shimei :up:

[Clete]

Originally posted by Shimei

:up:
I usually just give amounts that I feel lead to give. I don't even bother to figure out what percent of my income the amount is, nor do I care!

That's music to my ears!

I have a question for you and the rest of the whole group reading this thread...

What advise would you give to a family who found themselves in a situation where they had to choose between paying their electric bill or giving to their church?


Resting in Him,
Clete

[Servo]

Originally posted by Clete

That's music to my ears!

I have a question for you and the rest of the whole group reading this thread...

What advise would you give to a family who found themselves in a situation where they had to choose between paying their electric bill or giving to their church?


Resting in Him,
Clete

See if you can get the church to pay their electric bill...

Just kidding!

The family should pay their electric bill.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Shimei

See if you can get the church to pay their electric bill...

Just kidding!

The family should pay their electric bill.

I agree with you! It is interesting to point out that if the family pays their bills with their offering money that, in effect, the church is paying their electric bill.

The reason why they should pay their electric bill before giving their money to the church is because one's first responsibility, or primary ministry is to their family not to their church.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever.

Those under the law HAD NO SUCH PROVISION! One was to give their tithe in accordane to the law, period.


Resting in Him,
Clete

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Clete

I agree with you! It is interesting to point out that if the family pays their bills with their offering money that, in effect, the church is paying their electric bill.

The reason why they should pay their electric bill before giving their money to the church is because one's first responsibility, or primary ministry is to their family not to their church.

1 Timothy 5:8
But if anyone does not provide for his own, and especially for those of his household, he has denied the faith and is worse than an unbeliever. Not only that, but the electric bill is for electricity that we've already used. It's not like we'd be deciding not to buy electricity this month, it would be that we refused to pay for what we already consumed. That would be like eating food at the grocery store and then saying to the cashier, "Oops! Maybe I'll be able to pay for what I ate next month, but for now you're out of luck."



Those under the law HAD NO SUCH PROVISION! One was to give their tithe in accordane to the law, period.

Are you sure?

He answered and said to them, "Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, 'Honor your father and your mother'; and, "He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.' But you say, "Whoever says to his father or mother, 'Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God' -- then he need not honor his father or mother.' Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition." Matthew 15:3-6

Now I realize that Jesus didn't explicitly call this "gift to God" a part of the tithe, but I think the principle would apply weather it's tithe money or additional offering money. Jesus counted the tithe as a lesser commandment (Mt. 23:23, Lk 11:42) and taking care of one's family surely took precedence over it. The situation would be similar to when a starving David was fed the showbread even though it violated a symbolic law.

[Poly]

This is something that really irritates me in so many of today's churches. I used to think it only took place in more of the charasmatic or "name it and claim it" type churches but a lot of domininations are telling their congregations to give or to tithe before taking care of your financial responsibilities. They pressure people and tell them to do this before paying car loans, mortgages, groceries, utilities, etc.

Such irresponsibility taught straight from the pulpit. :nono:

[Clete]

Turbo,

You are right, of course. I overstated things by quite a bit.
The principle was that man was not created for the law but the law for man.

I love it when iron sharpens iron! :thumb:

Poly's last comment was the thing I had in mind when I brought this point up. It seems that most preachers in the country today teach that you OWE God your tithe and that debt takes precedence over any and all other obligations which is complete foolishness.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Poly

This is something that really irritates me in so many of today's churches. I used to think it only took place in more of the charasmatic or "name it and claim it" type churches but a lot of domininations are telling their congregations to give or to tithe before taking care of your financial responsibilities. They pressure people and tell them to do this before paying car loans, mortgages, groceries, utilities, etc.

Such irresponsibility taught straight from the pulpit. :nono:

This is so true. The root of this teaching though, is to trust God that he will take care of you. In Malachi 3:10, " Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, so that there may be food in My house, and test Me now in this," says the LORD of hosts, "if I will not open for you the windows of heaven and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows. "

[Poly]

Originally posted by Clete

It seems that most preachers in the country today teach that you OWE God your tithe and that debt takes precedence over any and all other obligations which is complete foolishness.

Resting in Him,
Clete

And notice that in the giving of the tithe under the law, God doesn't put any emphasis on giving joyfully or cheerfully. He just says do it. Not that there weren't some that might have been happy in just obeying the Lord although with Israel's track record I doubt this was the case very often. But Paul really stresses doing it joyfully. If we owe money it's doubtful what we'll be joyful in giving it. I mean when we go to pay the mortgage we're ok with it because that's our responsibility but we get no real enjoyment and excitement out of it. But when we can give out of my love to God, it becomes meaningful and we can be cheerful in doing it.

[Sold Out]

Well, I don't always enjoy reading my bible, praying, or getting up early for church on Sunday, but I do it because God said so...why should the tithe be any different?

[Poly]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Well, I don't always enjoy reading my bible, praying, or getting up early for church on Sunday, but I do it because God said so...why should the tithe be any different?

If you're doing those other things out of pressure and obligation rather than by your desire to do so then it's no different than giving out of obligation or being pressured. All things done for God should be done out of joy and desire.

[godrulz]

To obey is better than sacrifice, He doesn't need your money, He wants your life (paraphrase of Keith Green song?).

Obedience/worship flows out of love, not duty.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Well, I don't always enjoy reading my bible, praying, or getting up early for church on Sunday, but I do it because God said so...why should the tithe be any different?

Poly's right, it sounds like you're doing nearly everything in your Christian life out of a sense of obligation and thereby losing your reward in the process.

There is a little booklet that I read once that Bob Hill wrote. It was called, "You Cannot Live the Christian Life". I'm going to try to figure out how to post that. If someone knows of an online source for that booklet I would greatly appreciate it if you could point it out to me. It is the exact book that Sold Out here needs to read.

It wouldn't do it justice for me to try to summarize it so let me see if I can find it first, then if I can't I'll post something that gives you the gist of it.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. Oh, and by the way, God didn't say so, at least not to the Body of Christ, that's the whole point.

[Poly]

Originally posted by godrulz

To obey is better than sacrifice, He doesn't need your money, He wants your life (paraphrase of Keith Green song?).

Obedience/worship flows out of love, not duty.
But it's hard for worship to be out of love if it's nothing more than a duty. You put undue hardship on believers recommending they use the tithe as a guideline. You're encouraging them to put themselves in a position that would rob them of their joy and will end up making them puffed up, feel guilty or resentful in their giving.

Btw, I used to be a big fan of Keith Green and still like some of his songs but he had some real legalistic issues which is songs reflect. He even admitted it to some extent in his book.

[Servo]

Originally posted by Turbo

Now I realize that Jesus didn't explicitly call this "gift to God" a part of the tithe, but I think the principle would apply weather it's tithe money or additional offering money. Jesus counted the tithe as a lesser commandment (Mt. 23:23, Lk 11:42) and taking care of one's family surely took precedence over it. The situation would be similar to when a starving David was fed the showbread even though it violated a symbolic law.

Here is that verse, hits the point home!

Matthew 23:23
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Mint, dill and cummin, legal indeed.

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Poly

But it's hard for worship to be out of love if it's nothing more than a duty. You put undue hardship on believers recommending they use the tithe as a guideline. You're encouraging them to put themselves in a position that would rob them of their joy and will end up making them puffed up, feel guilty or resentful in their giving.

Btw, I used to be a big fan of Keith Green and still like some of his songs but he had some real legalistic issues which is songs reflect. He even admitted it to some extent in his book.

This was true in Keith's early years. His zeal for God was strident. He was prophetic in calling the church to 'No Compromise'. He eventually was challenged about the Law/repentance. His next album balanced things with songs like "Grace by which I stand". His love and passion for God and the lost were stirring, even if he was not perfect in everything he said or did.

[Sold Out]

Who is Keith Green?

[godrulz]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Who is Keith Green?


http://www.delusionresistance.org/christian/keith/Keith_Green_main.html

http://www.lastdaysministries.org/

http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/artists/keithgreen.html

http://www.boundless.org/1999/departments/atplay/a0000048.html

http://www.gospeltruth.net/keithgreen.htm


Keith had a zeal and passion for God and the lost. He helped disciple Bob Dylan (who may have fallen away since). The London Symphony and Dylan were on some of his records. Last Days Ministries was active in abortion and mission issues.

I just listened to all of his music on a road trip. The power and anointing of his message was as fresh as it was decades ago. Key Christian leaders through the years have been friends of his ministry (Ravenhill, etc.). He was influenced by Finney's writings. Some here think I am not saved because I also resonate with Keith's beliefs and heart. They do not have a clue about the heart of God. We do not idolize a man, but his impact has been profound. He is an example of how God uses someone who has a heart after God and desires to follow Him with their whole being.

Based on loving God with our whole hearts and others as much as ourselves, he said a Christian is someone who is

:bannana:

:bannana:

for Jesus!

[Sold Out]

OH, ok....I was confusing him with some country & western singer and I was like "what are these guys doing talking about him?"

[Clete]

In case anyone was wondering, this coversation has basically continued here....

http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18745