Unbelievers - Under the Law or Grace?

[Sold Out]

I figured I would start a new thread because of the posts coming off the tithe and offering thread regarding the law and grace.

Ok, here's my question: Are unbelievers (non-Christians) under the law or grace? If someone does not accept Christ in their lifetime and stands before God in judgment, what will they be judged for/by?

[question]

You'll find that a lot of christians believe in "common grace", or at least christians coming from a more reformed background. There are two forms of grace in this school of thought, there's the "common" kind that is extended to unbelievers and then there is "special" grace which is for believers alone.

[Sold Out]

How can that be supported scripturally?

[question]

that you would have to ask a christian, or someone who actually cared about what the bible says. I'm just a peanut gallery really, you know, two cents here, a nickels worth of free advice there...

[Nineveh]

Q: Are unbelievers (non-Christians) under the law or grace? If someone does not accept Christ in their lifetime and stands before God in judgment, what will they be judged for/by?

A: Romans 3:9-24
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good,
not even one.” “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

[Poly]

Romans 4:5
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

Great topic, Sold Out!

:::::Poly sits back and awaits possible responses from Turbo, Knight and Clete.::::


:bannana:

[Sold Out]

Thanks Poly...

I appreciate all the responses, but what I REALLY want an answer to is what will an unbeliever be judged for or on what standard?

I know that Christians are not obligated to the law as a means of salvation...but Jesus said if we love Him, to keep his commandments

[Poly]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Thanks Poly...

I appreciate all the responses, but what I REALLY want an answer to is what will an unbeliever be judged for or on what standard?

I know that Christians are not obligated to the law as a means of salvation...but Jesus said if we love Him, to keep his commandments

Here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=660455&highlight=tithe#post660455) is an excellent post by Turbo that might help enlighten you on this.

I'll repost it.

Originally posted by Turbo

During His earthly ministry, Jesus taught Israel to keep the commandments of the law.

Jesus to Israel: Keep the commandments of the law for salvation

Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

He said to Him, "Which ones?"

Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Matthew 19:16-19

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
"You shall not murder.
"You shall not commit adultery.
"You shall not steal.
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Exodus 20:12-16 (also Deuteronomy 5:16-20)

"You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:17-18


"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-20


The greatest commandments of the Law

But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"

Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:34-40

You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:5

...you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:18b


Keep the law, including less important laws like tithing

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!" Matthew 23:23-24



Jesus and the twelve preached the gospel of the kingdom to Israel; Paul preached the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.

Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14-15

But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Matthew 10:5-7

Jesus preached to Israel the gospel of the kingdom: Repent (and keep the commandments), for the kingdom of God is at hand. This is not the same gospel that Paul would later preach, that if you believe that Christ is Lord and that He rose from the dead, you are saved by grace through faith alone apart from works. In fact the twelve weren't even aware that Jesus would be crucified or raised from the dead when they were first preaching the gospel of the kingdom. And when Christ later told them about it, He told them to tell no one. (see Luke 9:6 vs. 9:21; Matthew 10:5-7 vs.16:20-21)

The gospel of grace through faith alone that Paul preached to the Gentiles was something unique from the gospel of the kingdom preached by the twelve to Israel, which is why he repeatedly called it "my gospel."

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Romans 2:14-16

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith-- to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen. Romans 16:25-27

Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 2 Timothy 2:8-9


For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, Romans 11:13

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. Galatians 2:7-9


Here is the twelve apostles' letter of endorsement for Paul's ministry to the Gentiles:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Acts 15:23-29

Paul made a few concessions to appease the apostles and avoid unnecessary conflict. Note that in addition to abstaining from blood, he also agreed to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols. Paul explains that there is nothing wrong with eating meats sacrificed to idols, but that his Gentile converts should avoid exercising their freedom if it may cause their weaker brothers (such as the Israelites who were under law/circumcision) from stumbling. The same principle would apply to blood.

Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. 1 Corinthians 8:4-13 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:23-33, Romans 14)

But Paul by no means encouraged his converts to keep the law, particularly the amoral, symbolic, "lesser matters of the law":

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. Galatians 4:10-11

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out

I figured I would start a new thread because of the posts coming off the tithe and offering thread regarding the law and grace.

Ok, here's my question: Are unbelievers (non-Christians) under the law or grace? If someone does not accept Christ in their lifetime and stands before God in judgment, what will they be judged for/by?

Just real quickly, I would respond by stating what you said in the other thread; that the law is a tutor to bring us to Christ. In other words, the law convicts us of sin as unbelievers and as believers we are no longer under a tutor (i.e. under the law).

Also, I would point out that what is right and what is wrong is not so BECAUSE of the law. In fact, it's quite the reverse. The law is what it is BECAUSE of what is right and what is wrong. This being the case, one could say, in a manner of speaking, that the whole unbelieving world will be judged by the law since it accurately depicts a righteous moral standard. But actually, since they are not of the nation of Israel they are not technically under the law of Moses but will be judged on the basis of the law which is "written on their hearts". In other words, every one knows right from wrong, everyone; and they will be judged based on that knowledge.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Sold Out]

I can agree with that Clete.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Sold Out

I figured I would start a new thread because of the posts coming off the tithe and offering thread regarding the law and grace.

Ok, here's my question: Are unbelievers (non-Christians) under the law or grace? If someone does not accept Christ in their lifetime and stands before God in judgment, what will they be judged for/by?

Romans 2
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;


13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.


14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,


15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,


16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

[Clete]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Romans 2
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;


13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.


14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,


15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,


16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Hey! That's what I said! ;)

Thanks for posting the Scripture reference, I was in to big a hury to do it earlier! :thumb:

Originally posted by Sold Out
I can agree with that Clete.

:thumb:

In that case, do you also agree with me about the tithing business?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Clete



In that case, do you also agree with me about the tithing business?

Resting in Him,
Clete

WELLL...(that's a big WELL!), I'm still not sure. I think we are obligated to observe certain aspects of the law without it being called 'legalism'. Adultery and murder are still wrong, even though we are not under the law. We are still obligated to observe those laws, though it has nothing to do with meriting salvation.

The Holy Spirit has really been convicting me about tithing. God certainly does not need my money (hello???), but he wants my heart. God does not ask much from us! You know, attend church once a week, support the work of those who are preaching the Gospel, witness, pray, read your bible. None of that is legalism, but rather devotion to the One who died for us. Ok, so I'm still on the fence.....

[Delmar]

Unbelievers - Under the Law or Grace? Law

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out

WELLL...(that's a big WELL!), I'm still not sure. I think we are obligated to observe certain aspects of the law without it being called 'legalism'.
Umm, this is a contradiction.

Adultery and murder are still wrong, even though we are not under the law.
This is true.

We are still obligated to observe those laws, though it has nothing to do with meriting salvation.
This is completely NOT true.

The Holy Spirit has really been convicting me about tithing.
Convicting? It what way? How do you know its the Holy Spirit doing it?

God certainly does not need my money (hello???), but he wants my heart.
If you are a believer, He already has your heart. It sounds to me that it is you who aren't convinced of this Biblical fact. Faith must be based on Biblical facts.

God does not ask much from us!
He asks nothing at all, except that we die in Him that He may live through us. In fact for you to attempt to do anything belittles what God has already done. In effect you are saying (without intending to do so) that what He has done wasn't enough.

You know, attend church once a week, support the work of those who are preaching the Gospel, witness, pray, read your bible. None of that is legalism, but rather devotion to the One who died for us. Ok, so I'm still on the fence.....
You are, I can tell, very very close. You hit on the key here. Love God, that's it. The rest will come naturally. Abide in Him, by faith and He will live His life through you. Bearing fruit for the Christian should take no more effort that a tomato plant puts into producing tomatos. It doesn't toil and fuss and worry and try to produce, it simply sits there being a tomato plant and the fruit comes by nature. It is very much the same way with a Christian, or at least it should be. Any "fruit" produced any other way will be burned up on the day of judgment because its source is of the flesh rather than the Spirit.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Jerry Shugart]

In order to understand salvation we must understand the first four chapters of Romans.

There Paul first begins outline the principle of salvation in regard to "works"- "Who will render to every man according to his works"(Ro.2:6).

The standard by which one's "works" are judged is "law"-"The law" for the Jews and the "conscience" for those who have not the law.In order to be saved by one's "works" one must "continue in well-doing"(Ro.2:7).

Let a man,from cradle to grave,continue in well doing and he will "earn" eternal life.But Paul makes it plain that no one is saved in this way--"...for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles,that they are all under sin;as it is written,There is none righteous,no,not one"(Ro.3:9,10).

Paul now goes on to reveal another way whereby the sinner can be saved,a "secret" that was not revealed until he was converted:

"But now the righteousness of God apart from law is revealed, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:21,22,24).

So one can "earn" salvation if one lives a sinless life.But Paul says that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"(Ro.3:23).

That means that the only ones who will be saved are those who "believe".

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensationalism_made_easy.html

[Clete]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

In order to understand salvation we must understand the first four chapters of Romans.

There Paul first begins outline the principle of salvation in regard to "works"- "Who will render to every man according to his works"(Ro.2:6).

The standard by which one's "works" are judged is "law"-"The law" for the Jews and the "conscience" for those who have not the law.In order to be saved by one's "works" one must "continue in well-doing"(Ro.2:7).

Let a man,from cradle to grave,continue in well doing and he will "earn" eternal life.But Paul makes it plain that no one is saved in this way--"...for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles,that they are all under sin;as it is written,There is none righteous,no,not one"(Ro.3:9,10).

Paul now goes on to reveal another way whereby the sinner can be saved,a "secret" that was not revealed until he was converted:

"But now the righteousness of God apart from law is revealed, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe...being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus"(Ro.3:21,22,24).

So one can "earn" salvation if one lives a sinless life.But Paul says that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God"(Ro.3:23).

That means that the only ones who will be saved are those who "believe".

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensationalism_made_easy.html

:BRAVO:

:first: POTD (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=687537#post687537)

[keypurr]

Sold Out, legalism is keeping the law to gain salvation. No one can earn salvation.

That is wrong.

But I feel that even though it is grace that saves us we should keep his law in our hearts and minds. To me this is what the term "under the law" means. The law is God's will. If we keep it because we love him enough to please him, it is not legalism.

God Bless

[Turbo]

Originally posted by keypurr

Sold Out, legalism is keeping the law to gain salvation. No one can earn salvation.

That is wrong.

But I feel that even though it is grace that saves us we should keep his law in our hearts and minds. To me this is what the term "under the law" means. The law is God's will. If we keep it because we love him enough to please him, it is not legalism.

God Bless But keypurr, Paul went to great lengths to explain that we member of the Body of Christ are not "under the law."

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18

[Clete]

Originally posted by keypurr

Sold Out, legalism is keeping the law to gain salvation. No one can earn salvation.

That is wrong.

But I feel that even though it is grace that saves us we should keep his law in our hearts and minds. To me this is what the term "under the law" means. The law is God's will. If we keep it because we love him enough to please him, it is not legalism.

God Bless

There is so much more to the Christian life than salvation and 100% of it is available by and only grace through only through faith in the death and resurection of Jesus Christ.
If you place youself under the law for whatever reason, Christ will profit you nothing.
In otherwords, if you attempt to be saved by placing yourself under law then Christ will profit you nothing in regards to salvation. If you attempt to gain victory over sin by placing youself under law then Christ will profit you nothing in regards to attaining victory over sin. If you attempt to accomplish anything in this life by way of the law then Christ will profit you nothing in that endevour whatever it happens to be. The only victory we will ever experence is in Christ Jesus, whether it be over condemnation or over anything else.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[keypurr]

My post does not clain salvation by works of the law.

I interpert the saying "not under the law" different from you. I believe that the law is still if force just as Paul did. He said "Do we make void the law, God forbid" Not being under the law does not mean he did not keep it. NOT because he had to, but wanted to. John also said to keep it and it should not be burdensome to you. We will be judged by the law. Thank God for the grace of Jesus that we can be saved. Because our flesh cannot keep the standards laid domw for us. That is why Christ came, to save sinners.

God Bless

[julie21]

Keeping to the law as legalism is basically keeping to what was drawn up on paper/stone, much as a legal binding contract is today.
Keeping to the laws set, out of the consciousness that the Spirit gives each believer, is written on our Christ-like hearts. A moral,ethical and love-based code to follow, rather than a legalistic, binding code devoid of feeling .

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by julie21

Keeping to the law as legalism is basically keeping to what was drawn up on paper/stone, much as a legal binding contract is today.
Keeping to the laws set, out of the consciousness that the Spirit gives each believer, is written on our Christ-like hearts. A moral,ethical and love-based code to follow, rather than a legalistic, binding code devoid of feeling .

:thumb:

Clete - I am wondering what sort of moral and ethical code you live by, seeing as you so adamantly are against the law in any circumstance. Clarify?

[billwald]

Depends upon how one defines "law." All humans are obligated by the Noahic Covenant. There isn't a single "law" in the 613 statements of Exo thru Deut whis obligates gentiles living outside Israel. Not a single verse refers to one's state in the next life.

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out

:thumb:

Clete - I am wondering what sort of moral and ethical code you live by, seeing as you so adamantly are against the law in any circumstance. Clarify?

This strikes me as a curious question. Haven't I repeatedly said that what is moral isn't so because of the law but because of God? Rather, the law is what it is because of what is moral.

So I, like you, believe it is wrong to commit adultery, or lie, or steal etc.. The difference is that you think it is wrong because it violates some moral CODE; some list of rules that say "thou shalt not...". I, on the other hand, am completely free to do whatever it is I want to do without fear of judgment because for me (and for you as well, whether you choose to believe it or not) all things are lawful. I cannot be judged guilty because the law has been removed. One simply cannot be convicted if there is no law.
Now, I'm sure you are thinking, "That's easy believism!" or "That sounds like you're say you have a liscence to sin!".
If that is what you are thinking then I'm very happy because it means two things. One, that you are paying attention, and two that my statements are in line with Paul's. Paul was met with the exact same objection and answered it directly and his response in mine...

Rom 6:12-18 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Does this answer your question?
If not, let me know. It is refreshing to have someone ask REAL questions for a change!

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by julie21

Keeping to the law as legalism is basically keeping to what was drawn up on paper/stone, much as a legal binding contract is today.
Keeping to the laws set, out of the consciousness that the Spirit gives each believer, is written on our Christ-like hearts. A moral, ethical and love-based code to follow, rather than a legalistic, binding code devoid of feeling .

I'm not sure of your intent with this statement so I don't want to be overly harsh here, but this, as stated, is simply wrong.

THERE IS NO CODE!!!!!

Your desire for a code is of the flesh. The law is the knowledge of good and evil and as such is an extension of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. It is a condition of the fallen nature of our flesh to desire to have a code, a list of rules by which to live. You mustn't do it! It is, in effect, the same as taking and eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil all over again!
Look at it this way. When Christ died on the cross, the law was nailed to the cross with Him. "...having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." Colossians 2:14
In so doing the curse of the law (i.e. the curse of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil) was wiped out. "Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" Galatians 3:13 [ Deuteronomy 21:23] ), (I believe firmly that it is no accident that Paul calls the cross "a tree" in this passage). So with the curse removed we as believers find ourselves restored to a position not unlike that which Adam and Eve were in, namely with but one single "rule". DO NOT PARTAKE OF THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL! Or put in the modern vernacular, DO NOT PARTAKE OF (PLACE YOURSELF UNDER) THE LAW!

Basically it boils down to this. Will you do rightly because you're following a code of law or list of rules, or because you love God? The point is that you have to make the choice. You cannot do it both ways. You are either under the law or you are not. Law and grace are not the same thing. In fact, they are opposites.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by keypurr

My post does not clain salvation by works of the law.

I interpret the saying "not under the law" different from you. I believe that the law is still if force just as Paul did. He said "Do we make void the law, God forbid" Not being under the law does not mean he did not keep it. NOT because he had to, but wanted to. John also said to keep it and it should not be burdensome to you. We will be judged by the law. Thank God for the grace of Jesus that we can be saved. Because our flesh cannot keep the standards laid down for us. That is why Christ came, to save sinners.

God Bless

keypurr,

Look, I really don't want to be insulting because as far as I can tell, you seem to be a genuine Christian with right motives who really is trying to lend something useful to the discussion, but I don't even know how to respond to what you've said here. It's not only self contradictory but it makes me wonder whether you've even read Paul's epistles for yourself. Your statements sound more like a repetition of something you heard your pastor or a favorite Bible teacher say. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I do that practically every single day. But my point is that to even suggest that Paul believed the law to still be in force is just ludicrous, and to state it outright as you have done is completely asinine if not downright insane!

How am I supposed to respond to that? It would be like trying to respond to someone in a political discussion who suggested that Rush Limbaugh supported higher taxes and bigger government, or that Hillary Clinton thought it was a good idea to talk women out of getting abortions. It's irrational!

I meant what I said, I really don't want to be insulting and I don't know whether you've read Paul's books or not, but if not, I beg you to please just read them. Don't study them, just read them; there'll be plenty of time for study later. For now, just simply read them like you would a novel and see if, after you've done that, whether you can possibly think that Paul thought that the law was still in effect. I find it impossible to believe that anyone who can read could do so.

If nothing of what I've said here applies, perhaps I just completely missed the point of your post and you're saying something completely different than what I got from reading it. If so, please clarify.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[julie21]

CLETE: DO YOU HAVE TO READ EVERYTHING LIKE A LAWYER! I WILL NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF USING THE WORD 'CODE' AGAIN...as you take it so literally!!!

I know that there is no 'CODE'...I HAVE NO FLESHLY DESIRE FOR A 'CODE' TO FOLLOW!
You read things how you want to read them...I may convey a thought through a word that is not of your liking and WOW!!! ...the guns come out firing...no 'gentle rebuke' here!
Paul claimed that we are not to be put under the law...and I agree that to put yourself into legalism merely because it is a set of rules laid down, is wrong...but he also stated what Keypurr posted..that we were not to make void the law! Grace is ours through the Cross,freely offered out of Christ's love for us.
I keep to the morals Christ has laid in my heart,out of my love for Him, and if some of them are similar or the same as what were in the OT law, then so be it. I follow what I feel is right...and I know that when my time comes, the Lord will judge me in the things I have done, and am confident that I will not have been found wanting in this area.

[Lawless]

The spirit of Christ within us far outreaches anything the Law could ever accomplish. Jesus "is" the fullfillment of the Law! All the credit goes to our creator, none to us

Have you ever had a time in your life when you were subjected to many rules and regulations at a work place, or at home, or whereever? Rule upon rule......till you come to the point of anger or frustration. Then finally a attitude of disobedience takes over and you want to break the rules just to get even. As the Bible says the Law gives passion to sin.

On the other hand if we become born again and the Spirit of the Lord lives in us we recognize the " Love" of our Creator. We recognize the sacrifice of the Blood of Christ who died for us. Greater Love no man has then he that lays down his " Life ". Thus we become Motivated by " Love " not laws! We become slaves to righteousness, not rules. Our righteousness " is " Christ.

[Chileice]

Originally posted by Lawless

The spirit of Christ within us far outreaches anything the Law could ever accomplish. Jesus "is" the fullfillment of the Law! All the credit goes to our creator, none to us

Have you ever had a time in your life when you were subjected to many rules and regulations at a work place, or at home, or whereever? Rule upon rule......till you come to the point of anger or frustration. Then finally a attitude of disobedience takes over and you want to break the rules just to get even. As the Bible says the Law gives passion to sin.




If I may, I'd like to add an illustration. My wife and I have been married for more than 20 years and we love each other dearly. I sometimes buy her flowers... out of the blue. Not to celebrate a specific date or not to fulfill a pre-programmed schedule but because I love her. Now I could bring her flowers out of duty say every first Monday of the month. But if I do it out of duty, the meaning would soon be lost. I believe that is what Hosea was getting at in Hosea 6.6 and why Jesus quoted that verse several times in the NT. It isn't the sacrifice God wants but rather loyal love.

[Lawless]

Originally posted by Chileice

If I may, I'd like to add an illustration. My wife and I have been married for more than 20 years and we love each other dearly. I sometimes buy her flowers... out of the blue. Not to celebrate a specific date or not to fulfill a pre-programmed schedule but because I love her. Now I could bring her flowers out of duty say every first Monday of the month. But if I do it out of duty, the meaning would soon be lost. I believe that is what Hosea was getting at in Hosea 6.6 and why Jesus quoted that verse several times in the NT. It isn't the sacrifice God wants but rather loyal love.

Nice illustration Chileice! I agree............

The last few months I've ordered some Bible studies From Bob Enyart ministries. I've enjoyed them. In one of the tape studies Pastor Enyart gives the following illustration.

What would your wife think if she borrowed your car and while driving she pulled down the sun visor and she saw a note you wrote yourself that said........"Thy shall not commit adultery"....How would she feel about that note?............on the other hand what if the note said......." Love and honor your wife".......I am sure her feelings would be quite different.

[Clete]

Originally posted by julie21

CLETE: DO YOU HAVE TO READ EVERYTHING LIKE A LAWYER! I WILL NOT MAKE THE MISTAKE OF USING THE WORD 'CODE' AGAIN...as you take it so literally!!!

I know that there is no 'CODE'...I HAVE NO FLESHLY DESIRE FOR A 'CODE' TO FOLLOW!
You read things how you want to read them...I may convey a thought through a word that is not of your liking and WOW!!! ...the guns come out firing...no 'gentle rebuke' here!
Paul claimed that we are not to be put under the law...and I agree that to put yourself into legalism merely because it is a set of rules laid down, is wrong...but he also stated what Keypurr posted..that we were not to make void the law! Grace is ours through the Cross,freely offered out of Christ's love for us.
I keep to the morals Christ has laid in my heart,out of my love for Him, and if some of them are similar or the same as what were in the OT law, then so be it. I follow what I feel is right...and I know that when my time comes, the Lord will judge me in the things I have done, and am confident that I will not have been found wanting in this area.

I oversized my words simply for emphasis, not to be insulting. The very first thing I said was that I wasn't sure of your intent so take a pill and chill out will ya? All I have to go on is what you wrote, I can't hear voice inflection and see facial expression and the rest so if I misunderstand based on what your actually wrote then that's on you. I realized when I read it that you could be attempting to say something very similar to what I'm saying and so I prefaced my statements with the words "... this, AS STATED, is simply wrong.", and you've acknowledged that there is no "code" in this response, so what's the big deal?. I've reread my post and the rest wasn't personal or denigrating in any way. I think you are simply reacting to my having used large letters to make an emphatic point.
At any rate, it was not my intention to insult you or to talk down to you or anything like that. I simply responded the way I felt was appropriate given the way your comments were stated. Trust me, if I had been trying to insult you, there would have been no room for doubt about it, okay?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Lawless

The spirit of Christ within us far outreaches anything the Law could ever accomplish. Jesus "is" the fullfillment of the Law! All the credit goes to our creator, none to us

Have you ever had a time in your life when you were subjected to many rules and regulations at a work place, or at home, or whereever? Rule upon rule......till you come to the point of anger or frustration. Then finally a attitude of disobedience takes over and you want to break the rules just to get even. As the Bible says the Law gives passion to sin.

On the other hand if we become born again and the Spirit of the Lord lives in us we recognize the " Love" of our Creator. We recognize the sacrifice of the Blood of Christ who died for us. Greater Love no man has then he that lays down his " Life ". Thus we become Motivated by " Love " not laws! We become slaves to righteousness, not rules. Our righteousness " is " Christ.

You've got it exactly!
Taking from you work place example, let's say instead of an attitude of disobedience taking over, that an attitude of love took over instead. Then, even if the rules went completely away, your conduct would remain the same as if your were following the previous set of rules and regulations, perhaps even better!
The key point to keep in mind however it that there is no requirement to do so! If you are required to do it then it isn't done out of love. Love must be given freely or else it is not love but debt (law).

Resting in Him,
Clete

[billwald]

Romans 1 teaches that each (sane) person has a conscience. That should be sufficient moral "law."

I quit buying dead flowers on June 30, 1962. Might do it again if The Wife and I live to June 30, 2012.

[julie21]

Clete: I oversized my words simply for emphasis, not to be insulting. The very first thing I said was that I wasn't sure of your intent so take a pill and chill out will ya? All I have to go on is what you wrote, I can't hear voice inflection and see facial expression and the rest so if I misunderstand based on what your actually wrote then that's on you. I realized when I read it that you could be attempting to say something very similar to what I'm saying and so I prefaced my statements with the words "... this, AS STATED, is simply wrong.", and you've acknowledged that there is no "code" in this response, so what's the big deal?. I've reread my post and the rest wasn't personal or denigrating in any way. I think you are simply reacting to my having used large letters to make an emphatic point.

Yes, I did respond to huge letters and the matching exclamation marks that followed them...as you yourself stated, we cannot see nor hear tonal inflections etc using this media.
The 'big deal' [misunderstaning of intent] was not dealt with until the post prior to this re your clarification of huge letter use etc in your initial post to mine, therefore at the time of my post re this, there still logically remained a 'big deal'...Now, following your explanatory post ,I have no further issues to be resolved.
As far as I can determine, your thinking on this issue and mine are similar , as you have stated, so no further problem exists from this end. In any future posts, I will not be so quick to assume intent linked to emphatic large letter useage. I apologise for the misunderstanding on my part.
In him,
Julie21
[out of curiosity, why did Turbo edit your first reponse to my initial post?]

[Clete]

Originally posted by julie21

Yes, I did respond to huge letters and the matching exclamation marks that followed them...as you yourself stated, we cannot see nor hear tonal inflections etc using this media.
The 'big deal' [misunderstaning of intent] was not dealt with until the post prior to this re your clarification of huge letter use etc in your initial post to mine, therefore at the time of my post re this, there still logically remained a 'big deal'...Now, following your explanatory post ,I have no further issues to be resolved.
As far as I can determine, your thinking on this issue and mine are similar , as you have stated, so no further problem exists from this end. In any future posts, I will not be so quick to assume intent linked to emphatic large letter useage. I apologise for the misunderstanding on my part.
In him,
Julie21

:up:

[out of curiosity, why did Turbo edit your first reponse to my initial post?]
I'm a terrible speller! I do spell checks but still occasionally miss things, Turbo will occasionally correct my spelling with my blessing and thanks!

[Lawless]

Originally posted by Clete

You've got it exactly!
Taking from you work place example, let's say instead of an attitude of disobedience taking over, that an attitude of love took over instead. Then, even if the rules went completely away, your conduct would remain the same as if your were following the previous set of rules and regulations, perhaps even better!
The key point to keep in mind however it that there is no requirement to do so! If you are required to do it then it isn't done out of love. Love must be given freely or else it is not love but debt (law).

Resting in Him,
Clete


Amen Clete........you also add another good point in that post about the work place! Well done!

Lol........To go back to the original question about unbelievers and Law or grace............Those in Christ are not under the Law. The Law and judgment were nailed to the cross with our Lord.
Those not in Christ are under Law and judgment.....God is a loving and a Just God!

[Poly]

Originally posted by Clete

:up:


I'm a terrible speller! I do spell checks but still occasionally miss things, Turbo will occationally correct my spelling with my blessing and thanks!

Looks like it's time to give him your blessing again. :D

[keypurr]

Clete's post
Rom 6:12-18 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Clete you see "? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? '

I see "certainly not"

Paul kept the law. If you can't see that then you should read Romans. However he state it is GRACE that saves, not by works.
So I guess he was not a legalist either.

Chilie Quote: If I may, I'd like to add an illustration. My wife and I have been married for more than 20 years and we love each other dearly. I sometimes buy her flowers... out of the blue. Not to celebrate a specific date or not to fulfill a pre-programmed schedule but because I love her. Now I could bring her flowers out of duty say every first Monday of the month. But if I do it out of duty, the meaning would soon be lost. I believe that is what Hosea was getting at in Hosea 6.6 and why Jesus quoted that verse several times in the NT. It isn't the sacrifice God wants but rather loyal love.
Great illustration on how to allpy his laws in our relationship with him. We keep them because we want to, not because we have to.

[Clete]

Originally posted by keypurr

Clete's post


Clete you see "? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? '


I see "certainly not"

Paul kept the law. If you can't see that then you should read Romans. However he state it is GRACE that saves, not by works.
So I guess he was not a legalist either.

I see both! You see neither!

Have you even read any of my posts on this thread and others, any of them at all?

Paul did not keep the law! How can you read something and completely get the entire point of it totally backward? :bang:
Not keeping the law was basically the theme of Paul's entire ministry for crying out loud! You have to be completely irrational to even suggest that Paul kept the law and taught others to do the same. Remember this...

Galatians 5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Can it get any clearer than that? Or are you now going to try to convince me that circumcision wasn't part of the law?

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Poly

Looks like it's time to give him your blessing again. :D

:chuckle:

That's a crack up! I had intended to check the spelling on that one and got distracted and forgot! :doh:

[keypurr]

Clete post
The key point to keep in mind however it that there is no requirement to do so! If you are required to do it then it isn't done out of love. Love must be given freely or else it is not love but debt (law).

:thumb: Some of us try to keep the law out of love. It is not an obligation, but I feel it is what he wants from us.

[logos_x]

Unbelievers - Under the Law or Grace?

Grace

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Clete

This strikes me as a curious question. Haven't I repeatedly said that what is moral isn't so because of the law but because of God? Rather, the law is what it is because of what is moral.

So I, like you, believe it is wrong to commit adultery, or lie, or steal etc.. The difference is that you think it is wrong because it violates some moral CODE; some list of rules that say "thou shalt not...". I, on the other hand, am completely free to do whatever it is I want to do without fear of judgment because for me (and for you as well, whether you choose to believe it or not) all things are lawful. I cannot be judged guilty because the law has been removed. One simply cannot be convicted if there is no law.
Now, I'm sure you are thinking, "That's easy believism!" or "That sounds like you're say you have a liscence to sin!".
If that is what you are thinking then I'm very happy because it means two things. One, that you are paying attention, and two that my statements are in line with Paul's. Paul was met with the exact same objection and answered it directly and his response in mine...

Does this answer your question?
If not, let me know. It is refreshing to have someone ask REAL questions for a change!

Resting in Him,
Clete

In a way, yes this anwers my question. I guess what I would like to ask is....if we sin after we are saved, are there consequences to that sin?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Sold Out

I guess what I would like to ask is....if we sin after we are saved, are there consequences to that sin?

Sin is lawlessness. In order for a Christian to sin, they would have to be under the Law, in the flesh, and they are not.

What was accounted as sin, under the Law, does have consequences in this life (we reap what we sow) , but not the consequences imposed by God (condemnation and death).

If you commit adultery it will affect the lives of many, but it cannot affect your relationship/fellowship with God (except perhaps in your own mind). God does not want us to do those things which are unprofitable for our neighbors, our families, or our own selves, and that is why Paul gives us a great deal of instruction not to live as we once did, when we "were" in darkness.

[Sold Out]

I agree with you Sozo, but I was looking for Clete's answer on this one.

[Clete]

Originally posted by keypurr

:thumb: Some of us try to keep the law out of love. It is not an obligation, but I feel it is what he wants from us.

You need to drop the term 'law' from you vernacular in this context, keypurr. You cannot keep the law by love or by any other means. You cannot do it, period. Just forget the law and love God, the rest will take care of itself.
The whole point of the law was to expose you for the evil person that you are and to demonstrate your need for Christ. Once you received Christ, the law no longer has any role to play. Every time you bring it back up, its exactly as if you are saying to Jesus that what He did wasn't good enough because you, for some reason, want to remain under the tutor that brought you to Him in the first place. You no longer need a tutor keypurr, I recommend ridding yourself of it or else you are doomed to live in frustration and confusion. You don't get saved by faith apart from the law and then go on to perfection by going back under the law. You're perfected in the exact same manner by which you were saved. This is the whole point of the book of Galatians.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out

In a way, yes this answers my question. I guess what I would like to ask is....if we sin after we are saved, are there consequences to that sin?

If I steal something from my neighbor, hasn't he been harmed? Not only has he lost whatever it is that I stole but hasn't our relationship been damaged as well? My witness has been destroyed and he might very well end up rejecting Christ because of my action and he’d spend eternity in Hell as a result.

Yes I would say that our actions very definitely have consequences.

However, what it vitally important for you and every Christian to understand is that if you want to not steal (or not commit any other sin) then if you are attempting to do so by way of following the law, then you will fail. In fact, you have already failed. If you want to have victory over sin, the only way God will permit such victory to take place is through faith. You MUST recon yourself to have died in Him, and the life you now live, you live by faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is no longer you who lives but Christ lives His life through you!
THIS IS THE ONLY MEANS OF VICTORY IN THE CHRISTIAN LIFE! It is the only ground upon which Spiritual growth can occur, the ONLY ground.

Resting in Him,
Clete

P.S. I agree with Sozo, by the way. I think that his use of a less than normal definition of the word 'sin' makes it unecessarily difficult to communicate the point he made, but as long as you make an effort to remain on the same page that Sozo is on with regard to the definition of 'sin' then his point is quite valid and true.

[keypurr]

Clete, I believe that with Christ in me I can keep the laws in the spirit. If the intent of my heart is to please him, this is the way to do it. Christ gave himself for all, even thugh we are all sinners. But through faith in him, we can fulfill his law spiritually. Paul says the law is spiritual.

Sozo quote: Sin is lawlessness. In order for a Christian to sin, they would have to be under the Law, in the flesh, and they are not.
:thumb: in the flesh no one can keep the law


If you commit adultery it will affect the lives of many, but it cannot affect your relationship/fellowship with God (except perhaps in your own mind). God does not want us to do those things which are unprofitable for our neighbors, our families, or our own selves, and that is why Paul gives us a great deal of instruction not to live as we once did, when we "were" in darkness.
This one is questionable, I think it will effect our relationship with God. I do not think he wants us to turn away from his laws because we are not under them. It is still our schoolmaster for right and wrong.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by keypurr

I do not think he wants us to turn away from his laws because we are not under them. It is still our schoolmaster for right and wrong.

"Bear one another's burdens"

Hey Clete, I know that you are still recovering from your recent bouts of headbanging, so I will take this one for you, my friend...

:bang:

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by keypurr
It is still our schoolmaster for right and wrong.

Galatians 3
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

how much clearer can it be?

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

1 Timothy 1
8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death

Paul makes is abundantly clear over and over that the law is not over us but that we are completely free from it.

Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

the idea that we, in Christ, are under the law is the very thing the Judaizers preached and what Paul adamantly taught against. the entire book of Galatians was written for this specific purpose, to address the idea that those in Christ were under the law which is what the Judaizers were preaching. Paul tackles the issue head on saying they are falling away from grace, following another gospel and seeking to be put back under a yoke of slavery by seeking to be under law. he states very clearly how we are free in Christ from the law completely. we walk by the Spirit, in the newness of life and not by the letter in the way of old.

[Clete]

GIT,

Brilliant post, I couldn't have said any better myself, probably not even as well. But as Sozo observed, there's very little else to say except....


:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Sozo

Really? I thought you believed in confession of sin, post conversion?

Maybe I have not made myself clear...sorry.

I believe that we (as believers) should confess our sin and ask forgiveness after we are saved, because face it, we are going to sin after we are saved!

Even though we are not held accountable under the law for that sin, sin wreaks havoc in our relationships with Jesus, our family, friends, etc. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. "

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Maybe I have not made myself clear...sorry.

I believe that we (as believers) should confess our sin and ask forgiveness after we are saved, because face it, we are going to sin after we are saved!

Even though we are not held accountable under the law for that sin, sin wreaks havoc in our relationships with Jesus, our family, friends, etc. I John 1:9 says, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. "


1 John 1:9 is not a post conversion verse. It applies to those who are NOT in fellowship, NOT in the light, and who do not practice the truth. (vs 6). It is for those who say they have "no sin" (vs 8), which denies the truth that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

It is a verse that describes the fact that those who come to Christ must agree with God that they are sinners, and it is He alone who is faithful and just to forgive us of sin and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If Christ made you righteous, how do you reconile the idea that YOU can make yourself unrighteous post conversion?

Christians do not sin post conversion.

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Sozo

Christians do not sin post conversion.

Ok, then what happened at the church in Corinth:

I Corinthians 5:1-5, "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

This man had a SINFUL NATURE, and had SINNED by having his father's wife, yet was a saved man!

Paul said Romans 7:14-25, " We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do–this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God–through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. "

[Crow]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Galatians 3
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

how much clearer can it be?

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became as a Jew, so that I might win Jews; to those who are under the Law, as under the Law though not being myself under the Law, so that I might win those who are under the Law

Galatians 5:18
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

1 Timothy 1
8But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully, 9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death

Paul makes is abundantly clear over and over that the law is not over us but that we are completely free from it.

Galatians 5:1
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

the idea that we, in Christ, are under the law is the very thing the Judaizers preached and what Paul adamantly taught against. the entire book of Galatians was written for this specific purpose, to address the idea that those in Christ were under the law which is what the Judaizers were preaching. Paul tackles the issue head on saying they are falling away from grace, following another gospel and seeking to be put back under a yoke of slavery by seeking to be under law. he states very clearly how we are free in Christ from the law completely. we walk by the Spirit, in the newness of life and not by the letter in the way of old.

POTD! (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=689098#post689098):first:

[Sozo]

Sold Out...

What kind of horrid translation are you reading?

If that is the NIV, then you have no hope of ever understanding the gospel.

I will respond to your objections when I have more time, but for you to believe that a Christian can sin, completely negates the cross, the shed blood of Jesus, and the reality of His resurrected life in His body (the church).

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. And you know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, that He might destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

[Clete]

Sold Out,

I have to disagree with Sozo on this one. I think the 'we' in verse 9 is the same 'we' that is throughout the chapter. Here's the whole chapter so we can see it first hand...

I John 1:1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life-- 2 the life was manifested, and we have seen, and bear witness, and declare to you that eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us-- 3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ. 4And these things we write to you that your[a] joy may be full.

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

This passage seems super straight forward to me. I think it is saying just exactly what is seems to be saying. The key to getting it though is being clear as to who John's audience is and thus who the 'we' is that he is refering to. John was saved under the previous dispensation of law and preached the Kingdom Gospel. The same gospel that Jesus and the rest of the twelve apostles preached. His converts, and thus his audience were under the same dispensation that he (John) was, the dispensation of law, and thus his teaching is consistent with that dispensation and thus the 'we' refers to those under the previous dispensation which was a group that coexisted for a time with those who were converted primarily by Paul under the new (and current) Dispensation of Grace. In short, John's letters mean what they say but are someone else's mail.
You will find so such teaching in the Pauline epistles. In the previous dispensation is was forgive and you will be forgive if you repent. Under the current dispensation it's you have been forgiven because you repented, therefore forgive. Quite opposite one another and intentionally so. As a believer you have been identified in Christ. You have already been executed for you sins, in Christ. How much forgiveness does a dead man need for his sins, especially when he was put to death for those very sins? You can't be executed for and forgiven of the same sin, can you? If so, then Christ died in vain!
Now, if you do harm to your neigbor then you should repent (stop walking in the flesh) and THANK God for the forgiveness you already have in Christ. In so doing you will be walking in the Spirit, that is you will be reconning youself to be identified in Him, to be dead to sin and alive to God, in Him.

I hope this helps.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Clete]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Ok, then what happened at the church in Corinth:

I Corinthians 5:1-5, "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.

This man had a SINFUL NATURE, and had SINNED by having his father's wife, yet was a saved man!

Paul said Romans 7:14-25, " We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do–this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God–through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. "

Remember, you have to try to stay on the same page that Sozo is on with regard to what it means to sin. While his definition may be biblical it certainly is not what most people think of when they use the word 'sin' (mostly because pretty much the entire church has placed itself under law).
For example, if I understand Sozo's position correctly, he would not consider adultery to be sinful for the Christian because there is no longer any law against adultery and since sin is a violation of the law then adultery is not sin.
Now I'm sure he wouldn't couch it in quite those terms and if I've totally missed it, I'm sure he'll correct me, but I've tried to put it terms that will make it clear to you what he is getting at.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Sold Out]

Are you people smacked? Adultery not a sin for the Christian?

So is lying not a sin, stealing not a sin, murder not a sin?

Ok, I will give you a more 'approved' version of what Paul said,

"Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. "

Paul is saying his old sinful nature is always in a battle with his new nature. Just because you get saved, does not mean you lose your sin nature and the ability to sin. As Christians we are not condemned ETERNALLY for our day to day sin, but we pay in our earthly life.

Hebrews 12:1 (speaking to CHRISTIANS) says, "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

[Crow]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Are you people smacked? Adultery not a sin for the Christian?

So is lying not a sin, stealing not a sin, murder not a sin?

Ok, I will give you a more 'approved' version of what Paul said,

"Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin. "

Hebrews 12:1 (speaking to CHRISTIANS) says, "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Paul is saying his old sinful nature is always in a battle with his new nature. Just because you get saved, does not mean you lose your sin nature and the ability to sin. As Christians we are not condemned ETERNALLY for our day to day sin, but we pay in our earthly life."


I'll try to address this, although Sozo does it so much better, and will probably :sozo2::mock: me when he gets back.

When a believer commits adultry, since he is not under the Law, it is not sin in the sense of that which makes us unrighteous. We have the righteousness of God, and that is the only righteousness we can have, as man cannot be righteous of his own works. God's righteousness is beyond human ability to pollute. We can pollute our flesh and befoul our relationships with other men, but we cannot pollute that which is His and has been given to us.

That does not mean that commiting adultry, practicing immorality, murdering, thieving, etc., are acceptable. They are wicked acts of our flesh. Christians can and do commit horrible, harmful, wicked acts. Paul does not say that these are tolerable acts, indeed, he says to throw people who do these things out of the church assembly. He says to hand them over to the devil, as well.

These things destroy our relationships with others, as surely as they destroy our earthly lives. But they no longer condemn us to hell, as we have received grace.

Our relationship with God is separate from our relationship with human beings and wickedness our flesh commits. It is the sinful nature of our flesh which causes us to commit wickedness. But these acts do not separate us from God.

Our relationship with God is not a relationship between God and our flesh.

[Clete]

As I said before, I think Sozo's definition of sin is more confusing than is necessary. While the definition can be defended biblically, it is very much different than what could be considered a 'normal' definition or understanding of the term. It's frustrating to have to spend so much energy explaining such a mundane point as the definition of the word 'sin' when the same point can be, and has been, made in more communicative ways already.
I understand why Sozo uses the word 'sin' the way he does, and I agree with the point he's making, I just think that there is such a different paradigm between Sozo and Sold Out that Sold Out is having a very difficult time understanding the point being made. We've gotta take this one step at a time and be careful not to outrun those we are trying to bring along side.

Resting in Him,
Clete

[Lawless]

Originally posted by logos_x

Grace


In the above Quote logos_x said " unbelievers are under grace.


1 Timothy 1:8-10 (New King James Version)
New King James Version (NKJV)
Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.


8But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine,


This was pointed out earlier by " God of truth" in his statement of verses pointing out believers are under grace, unbelievers under Law.

[logos_x]

Lawless,

Perhaps you should read a little further...

1Ti 1:15 Faithful is the saying, and deserving of universal acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; among whom I stand foremost.
1Ti 1:16 But mercy was shown me in order that in me as the foremost of sinners Christ Jesus might display the fulness of His long-suffering patience as an example to encourage those who would afterwards be resting their faith on Him with a view to the Life of the Ages.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Clete

We've gotta take this one step at a time and be careful not to outrun those we are trying to bring along side.

Resting in Him,
Clete That is a very wise perspective, Clete. I appreciate you for bringing it to my attention.

[Crow]

Not arguing with you here, Lawless, just a comment.

The Law was my tutor, as Paul said. I do not need the Law to tell me that theft is wrong, murder is wrong, etc. People who have never even heard of the Law realize that it is wrong to murder. They might do it anyway, but they know it is wrong. An atheist knows that it is wrong to murder.

The Law has served it's purpose for me personally--it showed me that I would never be "good enough" of my own works.

Now, for me, the Law's purpose is to help me demonstrate to others that they cannot earn righteousness, and that they need Christ as Savior. Even though I am no longer under the Law, it still has it's use.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Crow

I'll try to address this, although Sozo does it so much better, and will probably :sozo2::mock: me when he gets back.

When a believer commits adultry, since he is not under the Law, it is not sin in the sense of that which makes us unrighteous. We have the righteousness of God, and that is the only righteousness we can have, as man cannot be righteous of his own works. God's righteousness is beyond human ability to pollute. We can pollute our flesh and befoul our relationships with other men, but we cannot pollute that which is His and has been given to us.

That does not mean that commiting adultry, practicing immorality, murdering, thieving, etc., are acceptable. They are wicked acts of our flesh. Christians can and do commit horrible, harmful, wicked acts. Paul does not say that these are tolerable acts, indeed, he says to throw people who do these things out of the church assembly. He says to hand them over to the devil, as well.

These things destroy our relationships with others, as surely as they destroy our earthly lives. But they no longer condemn us to hell, as we have received grace.

Our relationship with God is separate from our relationship with human beings and wickedness our flesh commits. It is the sinful nature of our flesh which causes us to commit wickedness. But these acts do not separate us from God.

Our relationship with God is not a relationship between God and our flesh.
:thumb:


You should write book!

[logos_x]

Well said Crow!

[Lawless]

Originally posted by logos_x

Lawless,

Perhaps you should read a little further...

1Ti 1:15 Faithful is the saying, and deserving of universal acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; among whom I stand foremost.
1Ti 1:16 But mercy was shown me in order that in me as the foremost of sinners Christ Jesus might display the fulness of His long-suffering patience as an example to encourage those who would afterwards be resting their faith on Him with a view to the Life of the Ages.


Amen.............Key words being " those who would afterwards be resting their " faith" on him

Do unbelievers have faith?

[logos_x]

Did you?

[Crow]

Originally posted by Sozo

:thumb:


You should write book!

After you....:chuckle:

[Lawless]

Originally posted by Crow

Not arguing with you here, Lawless, just a comment.

The Law was my tutor, as Paul said. I do not need the Law to tell me that theft is wrong, murder is wrong, etc. People who have never even heard of the Law realize that it is wrong to murder. They might do it anyway, but they know it is wrong. An atheist knows that it is wrong to murder.

The Law has served it's purpose for me personally--it showed me that I would never be "good enough" of my own works.

Now, for me, the Law's purpose is to help me demonstrate to others that they cannot earn righteousness, and that they need Christ as Savior. Even though I am no longer under the Law, it still has it's use.

Amen Crow..........I agree!


The law is a testimony against those not under grace. The justification of judgment against all those who reject Jesus!

[Lawless]

Originally posted by logos_x

Did you?

sorry are you speacking to me? And did I what.........Have faith?

[logos_x]

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

The promises and covenant was made with Jesus Christ.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

The promise and the covenant was always Grace in Christ..and the law cannot undo that.


Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
Gal 3:20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

Grace was God's plan from the foundation of the world.
The law was given as a schoolmaster to show our need for the saving grace of God.
The grace is always there...available to all who place their faith in it...instantly transforming anyone who calls on the name of the Lord.
All law violators NEED God's grace...all are law violators.

All law violators are candidates for salvation.

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Lawless

sorry are you speacking to me? And did I what.........Have faith?

Sorry, I should have addressed it to you.

Yes...I was asking if you had faith, even though you were an "unbeliever".

[Lawless]

Originally posted by logos_x

Sorry, I should have addressed it to you.

Yes...I was asking if you had faith, even though you were an "unbeliever".


Oh no!!! Not only did I not have faith, but I rejected Jesus.

Other then that I wasn't a all togther totally bad guy!!! :chuckle:

[logos_x]

Originally posted by Lawless

Oh no!!! Not only did I not have faith, but I rejected Jesus.

Other then that I wasn't a all togther totally bad guy!!! :chuckle: :darwinsm:

[Lawless]

Originally posted by logos_x

:darwinsm: quote:


quote:
Originally posted by Lawless

Oh no!!! Not only did I not have faith, but I rejected Jesus.

Other then that I wasn't a all togther totally bad guy!!!





I know a made a joke.....lol..., but even though I thought I wasn't a all together bad guy...............I was still under judgment and on my way to hell because of my unbelief in the Lord Jesus...

[logos_x]

posted by Lawless

I know a made a joke.....lol..., but even though I thought I wasn't a all together bad guy...............I was still under judgment and on my way to hell because of my unbelief in the Lord Jesus...

I think maybe "unbelief" isn't the obstacle we make it out to be.

Now..mind you...if you reject Christ....as opposed to a Christian who may have imperfectly represented Christ...or fail to accept your acceptance in Christ...then yes, you are on your way to Hell.

But...Jesus saves even then.

[Lawless]

Originally posted by logos_x

I think maybe "unbelief" isn't the obstacle we make it out to be.

Now..mind you...if you reject Christ....as opposed to a Christian who may have imperfectly represented Christ...or fail to accept your acceptance in Christ...then yes, you are on your way to Hell.

But...Jesus saves even then.


Amen.........as long as we repent from our rejection of Jesus. If not we remain under the Law and judgment! ........but if we accept the Lord Jesus we become alive in the Spirit ( Christ life in us ) and are dead to the Law and judgment.

[Frank Ernest]

Originally posted by Clete

Remember, you have to try to stay on the same page that Sozo is on with regard to what it means to sin. While his definition may be biblical it certainly is not what most people think of when they use the word 'sin' (mostly because pretty much the entire church has placed itself under law).
For example, if I understand Sozo's position correctly, he would not consider adultery to be sinful for the Christian because there is no longer any law against adultery and since sin is a violation of the law then adultery is not sin.
Now I'm sure he wouldn't couch it in quite those terms and if I've totally missed it, I'm sure he'll correct me, but I've tried to put it terms that will make it clear to you what he is getting at.

Resting in Him,
Clete
These threads on sin and grace are difficult to follow (for me anyway). What I get from the discussion is that being in Christ one cannot sin, not because there isn't sin, but that the Christian would not sin. From that it occurs to me that abiding in Christ means that adultery, for example, is out of the question for a Christian. No sin, no law, no judgment.

However, we all fall short. As Christians we depend on the mercy of God. If we are as steadfast in Christ as we can possibly be, then God's mercy prevails on judgment.

Am I getting close to anything, or am I still clueless?
:help:

[Crow]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

These threads on sin and grace are difficult to follow (for me anyway). What I get from the discussion is that being in Christ one cannot sin, not because there isn't sin, but that the Christian would not sin. From that it occurs to me that abiding in Christ means that adultery, for example, is out of the question for a Christian. No sin, no law, no judgment.

However, we all fall short. As Christians we depend on the mercy of God. If we are as steadfast in Christ as we can possibly be, then God's mercy prevails on judgment.

Am I getting close to anything, or am I still clueless?
:help:

The use of the word "sin" is what is confusing. It's common use includes human acts. Sin, in the sense we are discussing it, deals with that which puts mankind out of God's will, thereby separating us from Him.

A Christian must be righteous to be in relationship with God. The least bit of sin makes one unrighteous.

With man, this is not possible, as Christ pointed out. No one can possibly be righteous by keeping the Law. The Law is there to teach us that we just aren't good enough to be righteous of our own works, because none of us can keep the Law perfectly, saved or unsaved. The sinful nature of our flesh will see to that.

The only way we can be saved is through Christ, the Savior. When we are saved, we are once more in God's will, in relationship with Him, because we receive His righteousness through His grace. That is the only righteousness which is possible for us.

When a Christian does something immoral, it does not blemish God's righteousness. That is an act of our sin nature, an act of our flesh.

We should not take the righteousness that God has given us, the freedom from the condemnation of sin, as carte blanche to perform wickedness. Even though our wicked acts do not pollute God's righteousness, they are harmful to our fellow human beings and to us. We are to love them as we love ourselves and behave decently toward them, not out of fear of going to hell, but by allowing Christ to live through us, and act through us.

We are the Body of Christ. It is through us that He chooses to work today. Christ would not have us, as His body, behave immorally.

We will, of course, do things that are wrong. Our sinful nature still lives in our flesh. The Law taught us that, that we will never be righteous of our human works. Wickedness is a failure of the flesh, not a failure of God's righteousness to be sufficient to save us. Christ will not desert us because of our wicked acts. We are His for keeps.

[Frank Ernest]

Originally posted by :crow:

The use of the word "sin" is what is confusing. It's common use includes human acts. Sin, in the sense we are discussing it, deals with that which puts mankind out of God's will, thereby separating us from Him.

A Christian must be righteous to be in relationship with God. The least bit of sin makes one unrighteous.

With man, this is not possible, as Christ pointed out. No one can possibly be righteous by keeping the Law. The Law is there to teach us that we just aren't good enough to be righteous of our own works, because none of us can keep the Law perfectly, saved or unsaved. The sinful nature of our flesh will see to that.

The only way we can be saved is through Christ, the Savior. When we are saved, we are once more in God's will, in relationship with Him, because we receive His righteousness through His grace. That is the only righteousness which is possible for us.

When a Christian does something immoral, it does not blemish God's righteousness. That is an act of our sin nature, an act of our flesh.

We should not take the righteousness that God has given us, the freedom from the condemnation of sin, as carte blanche to perform wickedness. Even though our wicked acts do not pollute God's righteousness, they are harmful to our fellow human beings and to us. We are to love them as we love ourselves and behave decently toward them, not out of fear of going to hell, but by allowing Christ to live through us, and act through us.

We are the Body of Christ. It is through us that He chooses to work today. Christ would not have us, as His body, behave immorally.

We will, of course, do things that are wrong. Our sinful nature still lives in our flesh. The Law taught us that, that we will never be righteous of our human works. Wickedness is a failure of the flesh, not a failure of God's righteousness to be sufficient to save us. Christ will not desert us because of our wicked acts. We are His for keeps.
AHA! Glimmer of understanding here! :idea:

That's what I thought, just wanted to make sure.

Thanks, :crow2:. :bow::kiss:

[Clete]

Man! This could be the best thread ever on TOL! At least in recent memory anyway!

What a great post Crow! :thumb:

[keypurr]

Crow quote: We should not take the righteousness that God has given us, the freedom from the condemnation of sin, as carte blanche to perform wickedness. [\B]Even though our wicked acts do not pollute God's righteousness, they are harmful to our fellow human beings and to us. We are to love them as we love ourselves and behave decently toward them, not out of fear of going to hell, [B]but by allowing Christ to live through us, and act through us.

:thumb: :thumb: Great post

[Frank Ernest]

Hey :crow2:!

:idea: Can you award yourself a POTD?
:cheers:

[On Fire]

Originally posted by question
I'm just a peanut gallery really, you know, two cents here, a nickels worth of free advice there... Here today, gone tomorrow....

[Clete]

Sold Out,

Don't you have any more questions, or did you lose interest?

[Frank Ernest]

Don't know about SO, but I sure got some of my questions answered. :thumb:

[Clete]

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

Don't know about SO, but I sure got some of my questions answered. :thumb:
Excellent! Let me know if you have some more.

[Frank Ernest]

No problema. Will do. :thumb: