The Gospel

[Sold Out]

I had to start a thread on this after reading a post of Turbo's regarding the 'Gospel of the Kingdom' and the 'Gospel of Jesus Christ'.

Turbo seems to think that a different gospel was preached during Jesus' ministry than the one Paul preached during his. I wholeheartely disagree with this.

Gal 1:6-9 says there is only ONE gospel.

Turbo also leaned towards the fact that Old Testament people had to keep the law to be saved.

Any comment on this?

[Turbo]

These are great questions you're asking, Sold Out.

Let me ask you, what is the one and only gospel?

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Turbo also leaned towards the fact that Old Testament people had to keep the law to be saved.

Any comment on this? For a bit of background on this topic, you might want to check out Were works ever required? - Battle Royale VIII - Jerry Shugart vs. *Acts9_12Out* (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13451).

[Turbo]

This is the post that Sold Out is referring to, originally posted here (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=660455&highlight=tithe#post660455):

Originally posted by Turbo

During His earthly ministry, Jesus taught Israel to keep the commandments of the law.

Jesus to Israel: Keep the commandments of the law for salvation

Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."

He said to Him, "Which ones?"

Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.'" Matthew 19:16-19

"Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the LORD your God is giving you.
"You shall not murder.
"You shall not commit adultery.
"You shall not steal.
"You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor." Exodus 20:12-16 (also Deuteronomy 5:16-20)

"You shall not hate your brother in your heart. You shall surely rebuke your neighbor, and not bear sin because of him. You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:17-18


"Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:17-20


The greatest commandments of the Law

But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together. Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"

Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like it: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:34-40

You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength. Deuteronomy 6:5

...you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the LORD." Leviticus 19:18b


Keep the law, including less important laws like tithing

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!" Matthew 23:23-24



Jesus and the twelve preached the gospel of the kingdom to Israel; Paul preached the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.

Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14-15

But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Matthew 10:5-7

Jesus preached to Israel the gospel of the kingdom: Repent (and keep the commandments), for the kingdom of God is at hand. This is not the same gospel that Paul would later preach, that if you believe that Christ is Lord and that He rose from the dead, you are saved by grace through faith alone apart from works. In fact the twelve weren't even aware that Jesus would be crucified or raised from the dead when they were first preaching the gospel of the kingdom. And when Christ later told them about it, He told them to tell no one. (see Luke 9:6 vs. 9:21; Matthew 10:5-7 vs.16:20-21)

The gospel of grace through faith alone that Paul preached to the Gentiles was something unique from the gospel of the kingdom preached by the twelve to Israel, which is why he repeatedly called it "my gospel."

for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel. Romans 2:14-16

Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith-- to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever. Amen. Romans 16:25-27

Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 2 Timothy 2:8-9


For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, Romans 11:13

But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. Galatians 2:7-9


Here is the twelve apostles' letter of endorsement for Paul's ministry to the Gentiles:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"--to whom we gave no such commandment-- it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Acts 15:23-29

Paul made a few concessions to appease the apostles and avoid unnecessary conflict. Note that in addition to abstaining from blood, he also agreed to abstain from meat sacrificed to idols. Paul explains that there is nothing wrong with eating meats sacrificed to idols, but that his Gentile converts should avoid exercising their freedom if it may cause their weaker brothers (such as the Israelites who were under law/circumcision) from stumbling. The same principle would apply to blood.

Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.

But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. 1 Corinthians 8:4-13 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:23-33, Romans 14)

But Paul by no means encouraged his converts to keep the law, particularly the amoral, symbolic, "lesser matters of the law":

So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. Colossians 2:16-17

You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain. Galatians 4:10-11

[swanca99]

Admittedly I am tired (I work a bizarre schedule and it is past my bedtime right now), but at first glance, I don't see anything in the post above that hints at Old Testament people needing to keep the law for salvation.

Once I get some sleep I'm gonna look a little more into this, but for now, think of "gospel" as meaning "good news" and see if Turbo's quotes above make more sense. It's "good news" when your son or daughter is accepted into the college of their choice. It's "good news" when a medical test shows that you don't have cancer or whatever. Different "good news," but good news nonetheless.

Could it be that by the time Paul used the word "gospel" in his epistle to the Galatians, the term had taken on a more specialized meaning?

Good night...

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sold Out
Turbo seems to think that a different gospel was preached during Jesus' ministry than the one Paul preached during his. I wholeheartely disagree with this.
Sold Out,

I cannot see how you can disagree that there were two different gospels preached during the Acts period.

The gospel that was preached to the Jews during this period of time concerned the "identity" of the Lord Jesus Christ--that He is the Christ,the Son of the Living God.

The gospel that Paul preached to the churches that he founded was centered on the "purpose" of the death of the Lord Jesus upon the Cross--that He died for our sins.
Gal 1:6-9 says there is only ONE gospel.
That is not what it says.Instead,Paul says that no other gospel should be preached in the churches that he founded.And he knew that the other Apostles would not preach the "gospel of the circumcision" in those churches because they had agreed that they would only go to the Jews (Gal.2:9).
Turbo also leaned towards the fact that Old Testament people had to keep the law to be saved.
The Jews as well as the Gentiles were saved by faith alone.

The Jews were saved when they believed that Jesus is the Christ,the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"(1Jn.5:1-5).

The Jews who believed that Jesus is the Christ,the Son of God were born of God and became the children of God:

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"(Jn.1:12,13).

Those who teach that the Jews must do "works" in order to be saved must completely ignore the words of Paul where he speaks of the "remnant according to the election of grace",saying that if by grace then it is not of works;otherwise grace is no more grace (Ro.11:5,6).

Peter said that he was saved by "grace",the same way that the Gentiles are saved:

"We believe that it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved,just as they are"(Acts15:11).

Those who teach that the Jews were saved by "works" do not seem to understand the principle of salvation by grace.

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness"(Ro.4:4,5).

If the reward comes by "works" then it cannot be said to be of "grace".

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensationalism_made_easy.html

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Turbo

These are great questions you're asking, Sold Out.

Let me ask you, what is the one and only gospel?

I Corinthians 15:1-4,

"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

[Jerry Shugart]

Sold Out,

The "gospel" that you quote is the gospel that was preached to the churches which Paul founded--"That Christ died for our sins".

However,if we examine the Acts narrative we never see the "purpose" of the Lord's death preached to the Jews.Instead we read:

...that same Jesus,whom ye have crucified,both Lord and Christ"(Acts2:36).

"And immediately he (Paul) preached Christ in the synagogues,that He is the Son of God...proving that this is very Christ"(Acts9:20,22).

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures, Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ"(Acts17:2,3).

"For he (Apollos) mightily convinced the Jews,and that publicly,showing by the SCriptures that Jesus is Christ"(Acts18:28).

The gospel that was preached to the Jews was centered in the fact that Jesus is their promised Messiah,the Son of the Living God.The Acts narrative will be searched in vain for any occassion where the "purpose" of His death was ever preached to the Jews.

In His grace,--Jerry
[I]”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensationalism_made_easy.html

[Sold Out]

Jerry - You are saying there were more than one gospel, yet you repeat throughout your post what Paul said - the Gospel is death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Read Acts 10 where Peter gives Cornelius the Gospel - the same Gospel Paul preached.

Please don't stick your head in Acts and not pull it out.

So tell me what Gospel Abraham received in Gal 3:8?

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Turbo

Let me ask you, what is the one and only gospel?


Originally posted by Sold Out

I Corinthians 15:1-4,

...that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

Sold Out, when Jesus first sent the twelve to preach the gospel to the lost among Israel, they definitely were not preaching the gospel that Paul described. Here's why:
Originally posted by Turbo

Jesus and the twelve preached the gospel of the kingdom to Israel; Paul preached the gospel of grace to the Gentiles.

Now after John was put in prison, Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel." Mark 1:14-15

But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." Matthew 15:24

These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Matthew 10:5-7

Jesus preached to Israel the gospel of the kingdom: Repent (and keep the commandments), for the kingdom of God is at hand. This is not the same gospel that Paul would later preach, that if you believe that Christ is Lord and that He rose from the dead, you are saved by grace through faith alone apart from works. In fact the twelve weren't even aware that Jesus would be crucified or raised from the dead when they were first preaching the gospel of the kingdom. And when Christ later told them about it, He told them to tell no one. (see Luke 9:6 vs. 9:21; Matthew 10:5-7 vs.16:20-21)
Let's look at those passages I referred to at the end:

Then He called His twelve disciples together and gave them power and authority over all demons, and to cure diseases. He sent them to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. And He said to them, "Take nothing for the journey, neither staffs nor bag nor bread nor money; and do not have two tunics apiece.

"Whatever house you enter, stay there, and from there depart. And whoever will not receive you, when you go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet as a testimony against them."

So they departed and went through the towns, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere. Luke 9:1-6



These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as you go, preach, saying, "The kingdom of heaven is at hand.' Matthew 10:5-7
(Note the parallel phrases "to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick" in Luke 9:2 and "preaching the gospel and healing" in Luke 9:6. That's a major clue as to what "gospel" they were preaching.)

But at this time the twelve didn't know that Jesus would be killed and raised from the dead. And when Jesus later filled them in, He told them to keep it to themselves, and Peter didn't even believe Him:

And He strictly warned and commanded them to tell this to no one, saying, "The Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day." Luke 9:21-22



Then He commanded His disciples that they should tell no one that He was Jesus the Christ.

From that time Jesus began to show to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem, and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised the third day.

Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"

But He turned and said to Peter, "Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me, for you are not mindful of the things of God, but the things of men." Matthew 16:20-23


Sold Out, do you still think the gospel the twelve were preaching in Luke 9:6 was the same one Paul described in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Sold Out

I Corinthians 15:1-4,

"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures

do you believe that the gospel preached by the disciples in Luke 9:6 is the same as the gospel preached by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15?

Luke 9
6Departing, they began going throughout the villages, preaching the gospel and healing everywhere

how could the disciples preach their messiah crucified, buried and risen again before any of those had taken place?

does this not necessitate the idea that there is more than one gospel?

[God_Is_Truth]

Great mind think alike turbo ;)

[Turbo]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

how could the disciples preach their messiah crucified, buried and risen again before any of those had taken place? Better still, before they even knew it would take place.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Great mind think alike turbo ;) :thumb:

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Turbo

Better still, before they even knew it would take place.

absolutely right.

Luke 18
31Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished.


32"For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon,


33and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again."


34But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said.

[Sold Out]

Oh my gosh...I can't even believe what I am reading from you guys.

Let's pull a few scriptures into this and get Jesus out of the box you all have put Him in:

Rev 13:8, "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world"

Titus 1:2, "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"

Just because Jesus had not physically died, been buried and rose again (during the time the gospel was being preached during his life here on earth )did not mean it was not going to happen, or that it had not been foretold by the prophets to what would happen.

Remember what Paul said in I Corinthians 15:15, " For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.


Jesus himself said in John 5:46, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. "

The only difference between OT saints and NT saints is the view of the cross - they looked forward and we look back. The gospel has never been different. What do you think Isaiah wrote about? Jesus death, burial and resurrection! Of course these people during Jesus' time knew (or should have known) what He came to do.

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Of course these people during Jesus' time knew (or should have known) what He came to do. God/Jesus knew, but the reality is, the people didn't. The Gospels say that even the twelve didn't know. But they were preaching "the gospel" before Jesus even told them that he would be killed and raised from the dead. And when Jesus did tell them, He told them to tell no one, and they had a really hard time believing it.

Do you honestly believe that the twelve had been out preaching that Jesus would die and rise from the dead, and then later Jesus told them he would die and rise from the dead and that they should tell no one, and that Peter would object saying, "Far be it from You, Lord; this shall not happen to You!"?

And what do you make of Luke 18:34?

We're not pulling this stuff out of our hats. It's plainly written in the gospels. It may go against what you've been taught in church, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. You should be willing to modify your theology when it is shown to be unbiblical.

The first one to plead his cause seems right, Until his neighbor comes and examines him. Proverbs 18:17

[Sold Out]

Well, I will defend the biblical gospel at all costs, since the scriptures say it is the gospel that saves us (Rom 1:16, Eph 1:13), not different gospels that saved different people at different times.

Tell me what Gospel is spoken of in these scriptures:

Mark 1:1, "The beginning of the gospel about Jesus Christ, the Son of God."

Mark 8:35, "For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me and for the gospel will save it"

Luke 20:1, "One day as he was teaching the people in the temple courts and preaching the gospel, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, together with the elders, came up to him"

Mark 13:10, "And the gospel must first be preached to all nations."

[Turbo]

I already answered that in that long post from the other thread:

Originally posted by Turbo

Jesus preached to Israel the gospel of the kingdom: Repent (and keep the commandments), for the kingdom of God is at hand.

Would you mind answering some of my questions?

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Jerry - You are saying there were more than one gospel, yet you repeat throughout your post what Paul said - the Gospel is death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Sold Out,

I did no such thing!

Please read what I said again.
Read Acts 10 where Peter gives Cornelius the Gospel - the same Gospel Paul preached.
Where does the gospel which was preached to Cornelius ever say anything about the Lord Jesus dying for anyone's sins?
Please don't stick your head in Acts and not pull it out.
Please do not stick your head in the doctrines invented by men.Instead believe what the Scriptures say.You failed to address anything that I said and instead you misrepresented what I said.
So tell me what Gospel Abraham received in Gal 3:8?
The "good news" that Abraham recived is:

"In thee shall all nations be blessed"(Gal.3:9).

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensationalism_made_easy.html

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Sold Out
Rev 13:8, "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world"


Jesus was slain in 29 a.d., not at the foundation of the world.


Titus 1:2, "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"

the promise was given then, but it was kept a secret until revealed to Paul.

Romans 16
25Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past


Just because Jesus had not physically died, been buried and rose again (during the time the gospel was being preached during his life here on earth )did not mean it was not going to happen, or that it had not been foretold by the prophets to what would happen.

that Christ would die and rise again was prophesied yes, but the gospel accounts are clear that the people did not even understand it. Luke 18 states that even the 12 did not know he would die.

but what was kept secret was that the merits of Christ's death would become the basis upon which salvation was granted to individuals. never once do we see the merits of Christ's death prophesied.

it was never preached before Paul that salvation would become based on faith alone in the death and resurrection of Christ. this was kept secret from the foundation of the world, it was a mystery revealed to Paul.


Remember what Paul said in I Corinthians 15:15, " For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.

relevence?


Jesus himself said in John 5:46, "If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. "

that Jesus was the messiah was prophesied.


The only difference between OT saints and NT saints is the view of the cross - they looked forward and we look back. The gospel has never been different. What do you think Isaiah wrote about? Jesus death, burial and resurrection! Of course these people during Jesus' time knew (or should have known) what He came to do.

show me any reference from any OT person where they state that salvation is by faith alone in the work of Christ on the cross.

the idea that OT saints looked forward to the cross is not biblical. were the merits of the cross applied to the OT saints? absolutely! but that is very different from stating that they both knew and understood that Christ would die and that salvation was by faith in that cross.

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Sold Out,

I did no such thing!

Please read what I said again.

Where does the gospel which was preached to Cornelius ever say anything about the Lord Jesus dying for anyone's sins?

[/url]

Acts 10 - 34Then Peter began to speak: “I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. You know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached– how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him. “We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a tree, but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen–by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

show me any reference from any OT person where they state that salvation is by faith alone in the work of Christ on the cross.

the idea that OT saints looked forward to the cross is not biblical. were the merits of the cross applied to the OT saints? absolutely! but that is very different from stating that they both knew and understood that Christ would die and that salvation was by faith in that cross.

John 8:56, "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

Hebrews 11:17-19, "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Hebrews 11:24-26, "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

I Cor 10:1-4, " For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Turbo

I already answered that in that long post from the other thread:



Would you mind answering some of my questions?

Clarify again please...and provide a scripture that says keeping the law saved ANYONE.

I will gladly answer your questions, and I apologize if I have overlooked them. Very long posts are sometimes hard to follow. List them in a numerical order and I will reply.

[Mr. 5020]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Jesus was slain in 29 a.d., not at the foundation of the world. She quoted the Bible. Are you saying the Bible is wrong?

[swanca99]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

Jesus was slain in 29 a.d., not at the foundation of the world.



Originally posted by Mr. 5020

She quoted the Bible. Are you saying the Bible is wrong?

The verse Sold Out quoted is subject to both interpretations.

GIT is apparently taking the interpretation which, according to John Walvoord, is the one that most expositors accept, which is that the phrase "from the foundation of the world" refers to the time of the names being written in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. Walvoord himself also understands it this way.

Some expositors, however, understand it the way that Sold Out does, that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world. In fact, as I recall from my reading of Lewis Sperry Chafer's Systematic Theology, he took it this way.

It is perhaps interesting to note that Chafer was the first president of Dallas Seminary, Walvoord was the second president, and both were traditional dispensationalists and 4-point Calvinists. They agreed with each other on almost everything, but they differed on the interpretation of this verse.

On the basis of the similar concept expressed in Rev. 17:8, I tend to agree with Walvoord and GIT.

[swanca99]

What I am going to do in this post is present the traditional dispensationalist view (what I think some on this board refer to as "Acts 2 dispensationalism"). I'm not going to go to great lengths here to defend it, I'm just going to present it. Perhaps I'll attempt to defend it once others attempt to take it apart, but maybe not.

We could say that there are three or four different GOSPELS, or that there are three or four different messages of good news. Take your pick.

First, there is the gospel or good news of the kingdom (Mt 4:23, 9:35). This is the good news that God intends to set up the kingdom of Christ in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (2 Sam. 7:16). This message was preached by John the Baptist, by our Lord during His first advent, and will be preached during the tribulation (Mt 24:14).

Second, there is the gospel or good news of the grace of God, i.e., that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the world, was raised from the dead for our justification, and that by Him all who believe are justified. I'm not going to quote any Scripture about this one, since there has already been a lot quoted concerning it in this thread, and most of us agree that this one exists anyway. <8^)

Third, there is the "everlasting gospel" of Rev. 14:6-7. It is described in the New Scofield Refernce Bible (1967) "as the announcement of divine judgment upon the wicked in the coming great tribulation. It is good news for the suffering believers as it heralds their coming deliverance and reward (cp. v. 12). In view of this those who 'dwell on the earth' are exhorted to fear God and worship Him (v. 7)."

Chafer and Scofield (in his 1917 edition) add a fourth, that which Paul calls "my Gospel." They describe this as the gospel of grace in its fullest development, and it includes a lot of stuff about the church.

This "does not mean that there is more than one Gospel of salvation. Grace is the basis for salvation in all dispensations, and is under all circumstances the only way of salvation from sin." -- Scofield Reference Bible, 1967 edition

Covenant or Reformed theologians object to a distinction between the gospel of the kingdom and the gospel of grace. This statement by Chafer is similar to those made by some of the previous posters in this thread: "Here nevertheless will arise an absurdity which does not deter this type of theologian, namely, that men could preach the grace gospel based as it is on the death and resurrection of Christ when they did not believe Christ would die or be raised again (cf. Luke 18:31-34)." -- Systematic Theology, Vol. VII, page 176.

Please excuse the long post and my over-reliance on other sources -- I'm NOT a theologian by any means despite my overpriced education. But I hope this has helped you, Sold Out, to get an understanding of at least a traditional dispensationalist position on this issue.

[swanca99]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Turbo also leaned towards the fact that Old Testament people had to keep the law to be saved.



Originally posted by Sold Out

Clarify again please...and provide a scripture that says keeping the law saved ANYONE.



Turbo - please accept my apologies in advance if you have answered this question multiple times already.

But please, for the record...

Have you ever stated, or do you believe, that people were EVER saved, in ANY dispensation, by keeping the law?

[Chileice]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Clarify again please...and provide a scripture that says keeping the law saved ANYONE.

I will gladly answer your questions, and I apologize if I have overlooked them. Very long posts are sometimes hard to follow. List them in a numerical order and I will reply.

I wouldn't bother. All Jerry does here is promote his brand of dispensationalism. If you look up his posts that is ALL he does. He will never yield, even to the truth. Hang in there Slod Out!

[Chileice]

Just read Acts 7 and find out how Stephen defended the faith. Then read Acts 26 and Paul's defence before Agrippa. See if you think THEY thought they were preaching a different Gospel. They thought they were preaching the fulfillment of the same Gospel. The Gospel has always been to love the Lord your God with all your heart soul and mind and to love your neighbour as yourself. God has always demanded loyal love rather than sacrifice. See Hosea 6.3-6. See Psalm 130. God has always wanted a love relationship. The law served as a tutor to lead people to a relationship but can never replace a relationship. Jesus himself quoted Hosea 6.6 several times to illustrate that point and these are Jesus words in the Garden of Gethsemane where he praye for his disciples of that day as well as for us:

"This is eternal life: taht they may know you, the only true God, and the One who you have sent-- Jesus Christ."

Yes, that relationship should result in a changed life and Jesus gave us lots of ethical teaching that we fail to keep at our own peril. But he was not preaching some other Gospel. If we are following Paul rather than Jesus, Jesus sacrifice doen't serve to save me. Paul and Barnabas ripped their own clothes and begged the listeners in Lystra to understand that point (Acts 14). They were nothing... Jesus was everything. Looking back to Acts 13 you can see that the sermon Paul preached to the Jewish people at the synagogue was the same thing he preached to to the gentiles. Of course some of the Jewish believers naturally infused their old way of thinking into these new wineskins. But like Jesus said would happen, that didn't fit. Jesus was too big for those little dried skins. His love burst out and spilled over all of humanity and not just the Jews as many of them thought would be the case.

Human understanding is imperfect and I think dispensationalism is a human invention (J.N. Darby, et. al. in the 1800s) to try to come to grips with ambiguity that we as finite human beings can't understand. But God is bigger than texts and our fumbling desires to put everything into neat little cubicles.

"This is eternal life: taht they may know you, the only true God, and the One who you have sent-- Jesus Christ." John 17.3 The words of Jesus.

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Sold Out

John 8:56, "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”

so abraham knew more back then than the 12 disciples did who walked around with Jesus for 3 years?


Hebrews 11:17-19, "By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

nothing is stated here which indicates that abraham knew the Christ would die and be resurrected. all it says is that abraham remembered the promise to bless him through isaac and since isaac was about to be killed, he assumed God would raise him (isaac) from the dead to ensure the promise, and in a sense, he did.


Hebrews 11:24-26, "By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

this verse doesn't say he knew that the Christ would suffer. it says the "reproach of Christ" meaning the same type of reproach that Christ went through. Moses clearly chose to be lowly among his people and save them rather than live it up in Egypt which is what Christ did in that he died for his people rather than take the "easy way out".


I Cor 10:1-4, " For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers, that our forefathers were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea. They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. They all ate the same spiritual food and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.

the rock was Christ, yes, but this does not allow us to make the jump that they knew it was Christ. that would be reading into the text.

[Sold Out]

Very lame explanations....

Of course they knew about Christ...what did all the prophets write about?

What was the promise that God made to Abraham? That the messiah would come from his seed, and when he went to offer Isaac on the altar, he reasoned that God could raise the dead and trusted what God asked him to do. This was a picture of Christ! Don't break God's pictures!

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Very lame explanations....

Of course they knew about Christ...what did all the prophets write about?

What was the promise that God made to Abraham? That the messiah would come from his seed, and when he went to offer Isaac on the altar, he reasoned that God could raise the dead and trusted what God asked him to do. This was a picture of Christ! Don't break God's pictures!

they knew about a messiah, yes, i agree. but they did not know he would be killed and resurrected 3 days later. nor did they have any idea that Israel would at some point be put aside for the dispensation of grace where God concluded both Jews and Gentiles in unbelief and would reconcile them through the blood of Christ into one body.

[billwald]

"but they did not know he would be killed and resurrected 3 days later. nor did they have any idea that Israel would at some point be put aside for the dispensation of grace where God concluded both Jews and Gentiles in unbelief and would reconcile them through the blood of Christ into one body."

Then salvation is based upon the correct interpretation of a historical event?

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by billwald

"but they did not know he would be killed and resurrected 3 days later. nor did they have any idea that Israel would at some point be put aside for the dispensation of grace where God concluded both Jews and Gentiles in unbelief and would reconcile them through the blood of Christ into one body."

Then salvation is based upon the correct interpretation of a historical event?

no.

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by God_Is_Truth

they knew about a messiah, yes, i agree. but they did not know he would be killed and resurrected 3 days later. nor did they have any idea that Israel would at some point be put aside for the dispensation of grace where God concluded both Jews and Gentiles in unbelief and would reconcile them through the blood of Christ into one body.

In Pauls second letter to Timothy, chapter 3 verse 5 he says, "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now since this letter was written before the canonized bible existed, the scriptures Paul is referring to are the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. He says Timothy knew from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures about Jesus and salvation through HIM.

Hebrews 9:22 says, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

How is man cleansed from sin? By the blood of Jesus! People in the OT and those who lived during Jesus' earthly ministry (pre-crucifixion) were not saved by believing the messiah would just show up! They were saved because they KNEW the messiah would have to die for their sins to make them righteous.

II Timothy 1:9 & 10 says, "This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Chileice
All Jerry does here is promote his brand of dispensationalism. If you look up his posts that is ALL he does. He will never yield, even to the truth.
Chileice,

If you can provide any "truth" that demonstrates that what I say is in error then I will admit that I am wrong.But all that I have seen you do is defend the doctrines invented by men.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensationalism_made_easy.html

[Jerry Shugart]

Sold Out,

Earlier I asked:
Where does the gospel which was preached to Cornelius ever say anything about the Lord Jesus dying for anyone's sins?
To this question you do nothing but quote Acts 10:34-43—which says absolutely nothing in regard to the “purpose” of the Lord’s death upon the Cross.

The Apostle Peter said that “whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins”(v.43),but that is not the same thing as the fact that “while we were yet sinners Christ died for us…when we were sinners we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son”(Ro.5:8,10).

Can you not distinguish the difference?Why would you quote a verse that says nothing about His death on the Cross when attempting to answer my question?You also say:
People in the OT and those who lived during Jesus' earthly ministry (pre-crucifixion) were not saved by believing the messiah would just show up! They were saved because they KNEW the messiah would have to die for their sins to make them righteous.
If the Jews knew that the Messiah must die for their sins,how do you explain the fact that those closest to Him when He walked the earth were not even aware that He must die?

We can see that His disciples went about preaching the “gospel of the kingdom” at a time when they did not even know that He must die (compare Luke 9:1-6 with Luke 18:33,34).

The “gospel” which we are to preach at this time is centered on the facts concerning the purpose of His death upon the Cross.Are we supposed to believe that the Apostles were preaching the “purpose” of His death when they preached the “gospel of the kingdom” despite the fact that they did not even realize that He was going to be crucified?

Perhaps this time you will actually put a little thought into your answer.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensa..._made_easy.html

[Sold Out]

You are missing everything....you have put Jesus into your concept of time - which I guess is better described as dispensationalism.

There are not two gospels. People have always been saved by believing in Christ's death, burial and resurrection. What was the purpose of a messiah if not to come and atone for the sins of mankind? What does EVERY SINGLE BLOOD SACRIFICE in the Old Testament picture? Jesus was the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. Why do you think God chose the lamb to be the animal that the Israelites were to sacrifice? Why do you think the lamb had to be without blemish? Because it pictured the Lord Jesus Christ and what He would do!!!!!!

As for why Jesus' disciples at times seemed clueless as to what Jesus was doing there is beyond anyone's scope of knowledge. They were not learned men (like Paul) and possibly did not have access to the scriptures as he did. They should have known, just like Nicodemus should have known. (see John 3)

Acts 10:39-41, "And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem, whom they killed by hanging on a tree. Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, not to all the people, but to witnesses chosen before by God, even to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Peter speaks of Jesus' death and resurrection right here in this passage of scripture!!

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Sold Out

As for why Jesus' disciples at times seemed clueless as to what Jesus was doing there is beyond anyone's scope of knowledge. They were not learned men (like Paul) and possibly did not have access to the scriptures as he did. Don't you mean (like Saul)? The guy who was persecuting and killing Jews, even though he was well aware *sarcasm* that Jesus was the Messiah who would come and die for our sins?

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sold Out
Peter speaks of Jesus' death and resurrection right here in this passage of scripture!!
It is one thing to preach the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus,but it is an entirely different thing to preach the "purpose" of that death.

You cannot seem to distinguish between the two.

If you would open your mind just a bit then you might come to the truth.But you continue to close your mind and therefore you cannot even distinguish between the preaching concerning His death and resurrection and the preaching that is centered on the purpose of His death upon the Cross.

These things are so simple but yet you prove over and over that you cannot understand them.

Today we have been given the "ministry of reconciliation" to preach the "word of reconciliation"(2Cor.5:18,19).This message cannot be preached without mentioning the "purpose" of the Lord Jesus' death upon the CRoss:

"When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son"(Ro.5:10).

"And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight"(Col.1:20-22).

You would expect us to believe that the Apostles were preaching this same gospel at a time when they did not even know that He was to die.You would expect us to believe that the gospel which was preached to the Jews during the Acts period is this same gospel despite the fact that there was not even one word was preached to them concerning the "purpose" of His death.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensa..._made_easy.html

[Sold Out]

Yes, that's exactly what I expect.

No man has ever been saved by anything other than Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

HIS DEATH - proves He is our Savior
HIS BURIAL - proves the price for sin was paid in full
HIS RESURRECTION - proves He is and always will be God

How can a man be saved by not believing in any of this? Explain that! You are saying the Gospel preached in the Gospels (MMLJ) did not include any of the above....if so, then how were men saved?

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Sold Out


How can a man be saved by not believing in any of this? Explain that! You are saying the Gospel preached in the Gospels (MMLJ) did not include any of the above....if so, then how were men saved? I believe that others will disagree with me, but NO ONE was "saved" until Jesus was glorified.

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Sold Out

In Pauls second letter to Timothy, chapter 3 verse 5 he says, "and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Now since this letter was written before the canonized bible existed, the scriptures Paul is referring to are the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. He says Timothy knew from the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures about Jesus and salvation through HIM.

Paul is referencing how if one studied the law, they would become wise and see the need for Christ.

Galatians 3:24
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.


Hebrews 9:22 says, "In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

How is man cleansed from sin? By the blood of Jesus! People in the OT and those who lived during Jesus' earthly ministry (pre-crucifixion) were not saved by believing the messiah would just show up! They were saved because they KNEW the messiah would have to die for their sins to make them righteous.

i am not suggesting that anything but the blood of Christ is what saved man. however, the idea that they knew the Christ was to die and pay for their sins before Paul is unbiblical as Luke 18 shows very clearly.

Luke 18
32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:

33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.

34And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.


II Timothy 1:9 & 10 says, "This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time, but it has now been revealed through the appearing of our Savior, Christ Jesus, who has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel"

yes, the mystery was predestined from before the foundation of the world, but it was kept secret until the proper time.

1 Timothy 2:6
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sold Out
How can a man be saved by not believing in any of this? Explain that! You are saying the Gospel preached in the Gospels (MMLJ) did not include any of the above....if so, then how were men saved?
Sold Out,

I have already explained it but since you have a clkosed mind I do not expect you to believe anything other than the doctrines invented by men.But here it is again.

The Jews who believed that Jesus is the promised Messiah,the Son of God,were "born of God" at the moment that they believed this fact:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God...For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"(1Jn.5:1-5).

The Jews who believed that He is the Messiah,the Son of God,received Him and were "born of God":

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the children of God, even to them that believe on his name: Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God"(Jn.1:12,13).

We can see that Paul says that Abraham was "justified" before God when he "believed God".And that is the way it has been since the beginning.Those who "believed God",no matter what the specific revelation of God was at that time,were saved and declared to be righteous in the eyes of God.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensa..._made_easy.html

[God_Is_Truth]

Originally posted by Sold Out

Yes, that's exactly what I expect.

No man has ever been saved by anything other than Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

no one will disagree with your statement. what will be argued however is that before Paul nobody knew the effects of Jesus's work on the cross. Peter does not preach forgiveness of sins on the cross alone in Acts 2. insetad he preaches repentence and baptism, the very things John the Baptist had preached. this indicates that little had changed at that point.

it is only at Paul that we find the effects of the cross revealed. the effects included the covenant of the law being abolished, the curse of the law being removed, the middle wall of paritition being broken down and Jews and Gentiles being reconciled into one body in Christ.

search hard for any of these things being preached by Peter in Acts chapter 2, they simply are not there. Peter preached repentence and baptism so that Israel could receive back her Messiah from heaven.

Paul preached the ministry of reconciliation because Israel had been concluded in unbelief and now the mystery had been revealed. now the cross was preached as the source of forgiveness and the dispensation of grace was introduced and established. none of this was before Paul.


HIS DEATH - proves He is our Savior
HIS BURIAL - proves the price for sin was paid in full
HIS RESURRECTION - proves He is and always will be God


absolutely.


How can a man be saved by not believing in any of this? Explain that! You are saying the Gospel preached in the Gospels (MMLJ) did not include any of the above....if so, then how were men saved?

men were saved by faith in God and his instructions. you are "anticipating revelation" by reading back what Paul wrote us into what Peter and the other preached. they are distinctive messages with different purposes. Peter offered Israel the kingdom which would bring about the "end days". Paul preached a mystery of grace because Israel was now being cut off for a time. while Peter's message had the possibility of acceptance, Paul's assumed Israel was already cut off and that the kingdom was set aside temporarily.

men were saved in different dispensations in different ways. while it was only the blood of Christ that saved them and only faith in God that brought this upon a person, it is unbiblical to suggest that all those before the cross knew about and understood fully the "mystery" Paul preached of the cross being our source of forgiveness and the forming of a new body consisting of Jews and Gentiles.

the men of old believed God and followed what he had instruced them to do. abraham was justified by faith but was also required to be circumcised. the people from moses on were required to observe the law. so also water baptism was required to be saved while Jesus preached. this was why he condemned the pharisees for rejecting the will of God in not being baptized.

Jesus is the reason we are all saved, but the conditions upon which it is given to a person have not always been the same. while it has always been faith in God, various thing were also required of people at different times like circumcision, the law, keeping the Sabbath etc.

we are now under the dispensation of grace and the only thing the required of us now is faith in the finished work of the cross. to say anything else is required is to put ones self back under the law and works. grace was first preached by Paul and is a part of the great "mystery" kept secret from the foundation of the world. compare that with Peter's message of what the prophets had "testified beforehand". Peter's message was anticipated, Paul's a secret.

once we recognize the distinction in ministries between Paul and Peter, many of the differences among churches about baptism and good works disappear.

if we only look and understand that a change in program has taken place, we can come together in much greater unity in doctrine and spirit allowing us to make a greater effort in preaching the "ministry of reconciliation" to a fallen world in desperate need of grace.

[billwald]

If you go south on the Aurora Bridge you will enter the Queen Anne district of Seattle.

1. There are other ways to get to Queen Anne.

2. There is no "Aurora Bridge." The correct name is the "George Washington Memorial Bridge."

3. 90% of the people who drive over the Aurora Bridge have never heard of the George Washington Memorial Bridge.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo

I believe that others will disagree with me, but NO ONE was "saved" until Jesus was glorified.

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."
Sozo,

While the Lord Jesus walked the earth He told the Jews the following:

"It is the Spirit Who giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

The Jews who believed that He was the Christ,the Son of God,were "born of God" at that time and they received "eternal life" at that time.This is what the Lord told the Jews:

"He that heareth My word,and believeth on Him Who sent Me,hath everlasting life,and shall not come into judgment,but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

The sins of those who "believed God" before the CRoss were "overlooked" by the Lord because He knew that He could place those sins on the Lord Jesus later at the Cross.So the sins of believers before the Cross were not "redeemed" or "expiated" until later at the CRoss.They were only "covered" until the Cross.But Paul reveals that the Lord would not impute the believer's sins to their account because they "believed God":

"Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness apart from works,Saying,Blessed are those whose iniquities are forgiven,and whose sins are covered"(Ro.4:6,7).

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensa..._made_easy.html

[Sozo]

Jerry... Try disputing the verse I quoted, instead of reaching well beyond the text you quoted to come up with your false convoluted theories.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo

Jerry... Try disputing the verse I quoted, instead of reaching well beyond the text you quoted to come up with your false convoluted theories.
There are many different functions in regard to the Holy Spirit.The verse you quoted is in regard to the Holy Spirit giving "power" to believers:

"But ye shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come upon you"(Acts1:8).

John explains that the "living water" was the coming gift of the Holy Spirit.The Spirit within a believer satisfies his need of God,and provides him with guidance and empowerment.However,it is clear that the Holy Spirit was giving life to the believer before Pentecost,as the Lord says that those who believe His words were given "everlasting life" at the moment that they believed His words:

"It is the Spirit Who giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

"He that heareth My word,and believeth on Him Who sent Me,hath everlasting life,and shall not come into judgment,but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

It is you who has "convulted theories" that can only be arrived at by ignoring the plain words of the Lord Jesus that He spoke to the Jews who were living while He walked the earth.

You obviously are unaware that there is more than one function performed by the Holy Spirit.He gives eternal life,and during the past dispensation He gave believers "power" so that they could witness to the work of the Lord Jesus at the Cross:

"And they went forth,and preached everywhere,the Lord working with them,and confirming the word with signs following"(Mk.16:20).

And are we to believe that Abraham,Isaac and Jacob were not saved before the Cross,despite the following words of the Lord Jesus?:

"I am the God of Abraham,and the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob?God is not the God of the dead,but of the living"(Mt.22:32).

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensa..._made_easy.html

[Sozo]

Jerry... You are a false teacher who preaches another Jesus and another gospel.

Your outright rejection of the foundation of salvation thorugh Jesus Christ puts you outside of the faith.

Before Christ rose from the dead, it was impossible for ANYONE to be saved!

Jesus proclaimed salvation through faith to those who believe. The Holy Spirit empowered many throughout history, but none of them were saved. They received the "promise", not the reality.

"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo

Jerry... You are a false teacher who preaches another Jesus and another gospel.

Your outright rejection of the foundation of salvation thorugh Jesus Christ puts you outside of the faith.
Sozo,

Say what you like about me but the words of My Savior are plain and cannot be denied by anyone who possesses true faith.

This is what He said in regard to those who believed in His Name while He walked the earth:

"My sheep hear My voice,and I know them and they follow Me.And I give unto them eternal life,and they shall never perish"(Jn.10:27,28).

He does not say that He "will give unto them eternal life".Those who believe Him while He walked the earth were made alive by the Holy Spirit:

"It is the Spirit Who giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

"He that heareth My word,and believeth on Him Who sent Me,hath everlasting life,and shall not come into judgment,but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

Again,He does not say that they "will have everlasting life" but instead He says that they already have it.

Only someone who does not believe His words would dare assert that these believers were not already saved.
Before Christ rose from the dead, it was impossible for ANYONE to be saved!
In order to make this statement you must ignore the words of the Lord Jesus that I quoted.It is you who teaches another Jesus,and not me.My teaching is according to what the Lord Jesus actually said while yours is a denial of His words.
Jesus proclaimed salvation through faith to those who believe. The Holy Spirit empowered many throughout history, but none of them were saved. They received the "promise", not the reality.
You say this because you obviously do not believe what the Lord Jesus said while He walked the earth.
"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect."
Are these the words from the Scripture which you think invalidates the plain words of the Lord Jesus Christ?

Here the author of Hebrews is saying that these men did not receive their "eschatological" hopes.Their future hopes were delayed and as a result the perfecting of the OT saints--that is,the realization of their hopes--awaits that of all believers.

Now I have addressed all of the verses that you have given to attempt to prove that none were saved until the Cross it is your turn to answer the words of the Lord Jesus that He spoke while He walked the earth.

Tell us why those who believed in Him were not saved even though the Lord Jesus said that He gave them eternal life and they would never perish.

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by Sozo
Before Christ rose from the dead, it was impossible for ANYONE to be saved!

Jesus proclaimed salvation through faith to those who believe. The Holy Spirit empowered many throughout history, but none of them were saved. They received the "promise", not the reality.

"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect." Where's Abraham? (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=Luke+16%3A19-31&section=0&version=csb&new=1&oq=&NavBook=lu&NavGo=16&NavCurrentChapter=16)

[Mr. Coffee]

Originally posted by ilyatur

Where's Abraham? Originally posted by Sozo

Awaiting the promise to be fulfilled. I think I understand what you meant now. The OT saints will not experience the fulness of salvation until we do.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart


Tell us why those who believed in Him were not saved even though the Lord Jesus said that He gave them eternal life and they would never perish. I have already told you time and again! You are just deaf and blind.

Jesus is proclaiming Himself as the Way to salvation and those who believe in Him have everlasting life.

"It is the Spirit Who giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Unless you HAVE the Spirit, YOU do not HAVE life!

"My sheep hear My voice,and I know them and they follow Me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish"(Jn.10:27,28).

It is the SPIRIT that gives LIFE! Unless they have the SPIRIT they DO NOT have life!

GET IT?

"He that heareth My word,and believeth on Him Who sent Me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into judgment, but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

He who HAS the Spirit is he who HAS everlasting life!


It is the SPIRIT that gives LIFE! Unless they have the SPIRIT they DO NOT have life!

GET IT?



"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

THE SPIRIT WAS NOT YET GIVEN!!!

GET IT?

There is NO LIFE to give until Jesus is glorified! They are NOT justified to receive LIFE until Jesus pays the debt, and is raised from the dead.

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His LIFE."

[Sozo]

Originally posted by ilyatur

I think I understand what you meant now. The OT saints will not experience the fulness of salvation until we do.

:thumb:

Salvation is LIFE... the very Life of God.

He who has the Son, has the life!

"It is the Spirit who gives life "

"He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive"

"...you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

"Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?"

"...your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own"

"for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

"In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"

"And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

"By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit."

"And this is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life."

"And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son"

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo

I have already told you time and again! You are just deaf and blind.
Have you now?
Jesus is proclaiming Himself as the Way to salvation and those who believe in Him have everlasting life.

"It is the Spirit Who giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Unless you HAVE the Spirit, YOU do not HAVE life!
There is a difference between the Spirit giving life and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

But evidently you cannot understanbd these things.The Jews who belived in His name were given eternal life at that time.But to you having eternal life and the promise that they shall never perish has nothing whatsoever to do with being saved.

You do not get it,do you?

"My sheep hear My voice,and I know them and they follow Me. And I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish"(Jn.10:27,28).

It is the SPIRIT that gives LIFE! Unless they have the SPIRIT they DO NOT have life!

GET IT?
The Spirit gives life.Just because a believer was not indwelt by the Holy Spirit does not mean that they were not quickened by the Holy Spirit.

"He that heareth My word,and believeth on Him Who sent Me, hath everlasting life,and shall not come into judgment, but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

He who HAS the Spirit is he who HAS everlasting life!
Those who believed the words which the LOrd Jesus spoke before the CRoss already possessed everlasting life,and were told that they would not come into judgment.But you cannot get it.IT is over your head.
It is the SPIRIT that gives LIFE! Unless they have the SPIRIT they DO NOT have life!

GET IT?
They already possess a life that the Lord describes as being everlasting life and they are told that they will never perish.But His words mean nothing to you because they were not yet indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

THE SPIRIT WAS NOT YET GIVEN!!!

GET IT?
The Holy Spirit was not yet given to indwell believers and to give them power to cionfirm the gospel of the kingdom.But despite this they had been quickened by the Holy Spirit and had been given aternal life and told that they would not perish.But His words mean nothing to you.

There is NO LIFE to give until Jesus is glorified! They are NOT justified to receive LIFE until Jesus pays the debt, and is raised from the dead.

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."
So I guess that Abraham was not justified before God when he believed God.Perhaps you should tear Genesis 15:6 out of your Bible so your Scriptures will agree with your misguided views.
"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His LIFE."
The "saved" in this instance is in regard to the time when the believer will put on his glorified body that is just like the glorified body of the Lord Jesus.

And these words are written to those in the Body of CHrist.Are you saying that believers today are not yet eternally saved?

And if no one was saved before the Lord Jesus died on the Cross then how do you explain the words of the Lord Jesus spoken to a believer before the Cross:

"Thy sins are forgiven...Thy faith hath saved thee"(Lk.7:48,50).

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart


There is a difference between the Spirit giving life and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

YOU are the one that claimed and affirmed that it is the Spirit that gives life, and that that life is eternal.

Salvation can be accounted and guaranteed without being realized through the promise. The OT saints attained that promise through faith. They were NOT saved, but the promise was sure. Salvation is the life of God in those who believe. I provided you with ample proof that YOU must have the Spirit to have the life, and the life did not come until Jesus was glorified.

YOU have simply chosen to ignore the truth of the gospel to concoct a bizarre theology to promote your own agenda.

[HopeofGlory]

Those before the cross were "saved" when they believed God or Christ but that salvation was not "eternal life".

In the book of John Jesus delived a message of eternal life and it was eating His flesh and drinking His blood but this was a spiritual message not of the flesh. This message was a greater witness that supreceded the message of John the Baptist for remission of sins.

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

One must believe or spiritually receive this message to receive eternal life.

Paul was the first to deliver this message unveiled by the flesh.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare, his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth, in Jesus.

[Sold Out]

Titus 1:2 says, "in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began "

Eternal life was PROMISED before humanity ever fell. The promise was sure - because God CANNOT lie - therefore those who trusted in what Christ would do (OT saints) were assuredly saved.

Where was Abraham? Jesus, in Luke 16:22 said, " And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;"

Abraham was in heaven...and this was before Jesus had physically died!

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Sold Out


Abraham was in heaven...and this was before Jesus had physically died!

The bible does not say that.


What do YOU say that salvation is?

What were those in the OT saved from?

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo
YOU have simply chosen to ignore the truth of the gospel to concoct a bizarre theology to promote your own agenda.
Sozo,

All you prove is that you can accuse others of things that are not true while all the time you ignore what the Scriptures so clearly reveal.

For instance,the Lord Jesus says that those who followed Him while He walked the earth were given eternal life and told that they will never perish:

"My sheep hear My voice,and I know them and they follow Me.And I give unto them eternal life,and they shall never perish"(Jn.10:27,28).

This is not a promise that they will in the future receive eternal life,but instead they already have it:

"He that heareth My word,and believeth on Him Who sent Me,hath everlasting life,and shall not come into judgment,but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

They already possessed eternal life and will never perish,but you are able to part company with common sense and assert that they were not saved.
YOU are the one that claimed and affirmed that it is the Spirit that gives life, and that that life is eternal.
Yes,the Holy Spirit gives life.And while the Lord Jesus walked the earth the Holy Spirit was indeed giving eternal life to all who believed the Lord:

"It is the Spirit Who giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

The Jews who believed Him were given eternal life at the moment that they believed:

"THe hour is coming,and now is,when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God;and they that hear shall live"(Jn5:25).

But you cannot believe this because it is in conflict with what you have been taught.You put the doctrines invented by men over what the Lord Jesus Himself said.
The OT saints attained that promise through faith. They were NOT saved, but the promise was sure.
You conveniently avoided addressing the following verse that demonstrates that those who lived before the Cross were in fact saved:

"Thy sins are forgiven...Thy faith hath saved thee"(Lk.7:48,50).
Salvation is the life of God in those who believe. I provided you with ample proof that YOU must have the Spirit to have the life, and the life did not come until Jesus was glorified.
You have not provided any proof.You fail to understand the simple principle that the Holy Spirit has more than one function.He not only "indwells" believers at the present time,but also He gives life to believers.And it is clear that He was giving life to believers before the Cross.

Are we supposed to believe that Enoch was not saved?:

"By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death,and was not found because God had translated him;for before his translation he had this testimony,that he pleased God"(Heb.11:5).

Are we supposed to believe that Abraham,Isaac and Jacob were not saved,despite the words of the Lord Jesus?:

"I am the God of Abraham,and the God of Isaac,and the God of Jacob?God is not the God of the dead,but of the living"(Mt.22:32).

Go ahead and call my ideas bizarre,but anyone who believes what the Lord Jesus said will know that it is your ideas that are bizarre.

In His grace,--Jerry
”Dispensationalism Made Easy”
http://midacts.net/studies/dispensa..._made_easy.html

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Sozo

The bible does not say that.


What do YOU say that salvation is?

What were those in the OT saved from?

OKAY...I just showed you the scripture and you argue with it?


Salvation is to be saved from something - our sin that separates us from God. Sin has to be punished - the wages of sin is death. Christ died on the cross, was buried, and rose again to pay the penalty of my (and everyone else's) sin, so that I would not have to go to hell. I trusted that Jesus did all the work to save me from my sin and because I trust HIM, I am guaranteed eternal life.

People in the OT sinned the same as we do. They needed a savior just the same as we do. They weren't exempt from punishment because they lived during a certain time. They trusted that the messiah would come, die for their sins, be buried and rose again. The OT sacrificial system was a proclamation of the Gospel. No one has ever been saved by keeping the law. There is not one scripture that says OT people were saved by keeping the law.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Sold Out

OKAY...I just showed you the scripture and you argue with it?

I am not arguing with the verse, I am simply pointing out that it does not say, in any sense, that Abraham has received the life of God and that his current residency, in that parable, is in heaven.Salvation is to be saved from something - our sin that separates us from God. Are we saved by Christ's death, or by His life? Having your sins forgiven does not save you. Christ died on the cross, was buried, and rose again to pay the penalty of my (and everyone else's) sin, so that I would not have to go to hell. Do you (and everyone else) not go to hell, because He paid the penalty, or is there something else involved?I trusted that Jesus did all the work to save me from my sin and because I trust HIM, I am guaranteed eternal life. When do you receive eternal life?People in the OT sinned the same as we do. They needed a savior just the same as we do. They weren't exempt from punishment because they lived during a certain time. They trusted that the messiah would come, die for their sins, be buried and rose again. What had to take place before they were saved?No one has ever been saved by keeping the law. There is not one scripture that says OT people were saved by keeping the law. I'm not disputing that, that is a discussion between you and the others.

I am simply proving to idiots like Jerry (who thinks that repeating the same lies will deceive others like he has himself) that salvation is being saved from death through the impartation of the life of God through the Spirit. The Spirit was not given unto men until Jesus was glorified. NO ONE was "saved" until they had received the life of God, even though the guarantee of salvation was sure to them who believed from the very beginning of creation.

[Sold Out]

Originally posted by Sozo

NO ONE was "saved" until they had received the life of God, even though the guarantee of salvation was sure to them who believed from the very beginning of creation.

You cannot substantiate this view with scripture.

We are declared 'righteous' because of Christ's sacrifice (death) not by his incarnation. If Jesus had not died, then we could not be saved.

Since God is immutable, His method of redemption never changes. Believers today are redeemed through exactly the same system that was given to Israel in the past, a substitutionary blood sacrifice using the exchanged life principle. The current system is best shown by selected verses from Isaiah 53: 4. “Smitten of God, and afflicted.” 5. “But he was wounded because of our transgressions...” 6. “All we like sheep did go astray...And the LORD hath made to light on him The iniquity of us all.” 7. “As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, And as a sheep that before her shearers is dumb; Yea, he opened not his mouth.” 8. “For he was cut off out of the land of the living, for the transgression of my people to whom the stroke was due” 9,10. “Although he had done no violence, Neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him...” 11. “And their iniquities he did bear.” 12. “Yet he bore the sin of many.” These references are about Israel’s Messiah who exchanged His life for theirs. Who is this Messiah? What is He like? What are His credentials for being an acceptable sacrifice? Micah (hk*ym) 5:1. gives an answer, “But thou, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Which art little to be among the thousands of Judah, Out of thee shall one come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; Whose goings forth are from of old, from ancient days” The “ancient days” are from eternity past, without beginning, and the reference is to Deity Himself. Since the sacrifice had to be without spot or blemish, that is, perfect in regard to God’s moral absolutes, only God Himself would suffice.

In the New Testament Paul, a Jew fully knowledgable with the Old Testament scriptures, sums up the whole system in just one verse. In 2 Corinthians 5:21. he wrote, “God made the one who did not know sin to be sin for us, so that in him we would become the righteousness of God.” Christians, and Jewish people, the scattered tribes of Israel, should not view the plan of salvation in two distinct and separate ways. The Old Testament, just as clearly as the New Testament, presents the way of redemption and salvation. Israel was to look forward, in faith, to the coming, sacrificial Messiah, and the Christians look back, in faith, to the finished redemptive work of the Messiah. The single fact is clear; the Messiah of God, God Himself, came to earth to exchange His life for each one of us.

[Sozo]

Sold Out...

Surely you are not this dense. You cannot substantiate this view with scripture. YOU are the one who has been claiming over and over again that the OT saints were looking forward to the cross of Christ and are saved by grace through faith just as we are. Why are you now rejecting that and asking me to prove it through scripture?

"So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."


All men are proved to be sinners through the Law, and therefore ALL men are condemned by the Law, and are dead (separated from God) in their sins. The "one transgression" that resulted in condemnation to ALL men was the sin of Adam. The one act of righteousness that results in justification of life to ALL men is the death of Christ on the cross.

"For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His LIFE."

The death of Jesus paid the penalty for ALL of our sins and reconciled us to God. God was satisfied (propitiated). We are then saved, not by His death, but by the impartation of His life!

The bible says RIGHT there in that verse that we are saved by His life!

It is the Spirit who gives life! He who has the Son has THE life! He who does not have the Son does NOT have THE life!

It is very simple fundemental theology, little children can understand it.

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

This verse PROVES that you must have the Spirit of God dwelling in YOU, or YOU do not belong to Him.

The Holy Spirit was not given until Jesus was glorified. There are NO new creations in Christ until Jesus sent the Spirit to give men THE life... God's life!

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

You cannot be "saved" unless YOU have received that which defines salvation, namely the life of God dwelling in you through the Spirit of God.

When Jesus was glorified, then those who had been looking forward to His appearance through faith, received the promise. That which was the mystery (Christ in you, the hope of glory).
Until that time they were kept from the promise so that apart from us they could not be made perfect.

"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect."

The gospel message is the righteousness of God in Christ, and it is the power of God unto salvation to EVERYONE who believes.
Unless you have the life of God, then you do not have His righteousness, YOU do not have the forgivess of sins, YOU are not redeemed, YOU are not Holy, YOU are not justified, YOU are not sactified, and YOU are not saved.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "But the righteous man shall live by faith."

"But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption"

"In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace"

"For He delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Forgiveness of sins is in Him, in His life.

Salvation is the restoration of God's life in those who believe.

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by Sozo

"Saved" from what?

Saved from the flames of hell and kept in the bossom of Abraham (Luke 16) until Christ descended (Ephs 4).

Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 1 Pet. 4:5 (KJV)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Pet. 4:6 (KJV)

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col. 1:18 (KJV)

[Sozo]

Originally posted by HopeofGlory

Saved from the flames of hell and kept in the bossom of Abraham (Luke 16) until Christ descended (Ephs 4).

Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. 1 Pet. 4:5 (KJV)
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. 1 Pet. 4:6 (KJV)

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col. 1:18 (KJV)

HoG... I'm not sure what you are trying to say that disagrees with what I have said.

Salvation must be defined. We are not just tossed from one domain into another. Something takes place.

Those verses prove everthting I have stated. Please be specific about your objections.

[HopeofGlory]

You must be punchy or something. What objections? I agree with what you have said. I was trying to get you to understand that there is a difference between temporal salvation and eternal salvation.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by HopeofGlory

You must be punchy or something. What objections? I agree with what you have said. I was trying to get you to understand that there is a difference between temporal salvation and eternal salvation. You're right, I apologize.

I tend to be a bit more absolute in my definitions at times. While it is true that those before the cross were "saved" in a sense, salvation is not realized apart from eternal life. I could have been more clear by stating that no one had eternal life before Jesus was glorified. The promise, proclaimed by Christ, was sure, but not yet realized.

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo
I am simply proving to idiots like Jerry (who thinks that repeating the same lies will deceive others like he has himself) that salvation is being saved from death through the impartation of the life of God through the Spirit.
Sozo,

The only thing that you have proved is that you run from verses that prove that your ideas are in error.

You say that no one was saved until the Cross,but when I provide a verse that demonstrates that believers were being saved at the time when the Lord Jesus walked the earth you just close your eyes and pretend that it is not there.Here are his words again:

"Thy sins are forgiven...Thy faith hath saved thee"(Lk.7:48,50).

All you prove is that when you cannot answer verses that prove that your ideas are wrong you revert to a childish game of name-calling.

You have not provided even one intelligent answer to any of the verses I provided.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

All you prove is that when you cannot answer verses that prove that your ideas are wrong you revert to a childish game of name-calling.

Jesus and Paul called people names, were they being childish?

YOU are a dumbass!

You have not provided even one intelligent answer to any of the verses I provided.

I answered your questions, and YOU are the only one who does not have an ounce of understanding. YOU simply lack the ability to pay attention.

EVERYONE that had faith prior to Christ being glorified was accounted the salvation that was realized through the impartation of the Spirit which did not come until His being glorified. Salvation is in His life. YOU cannot comprehend that because YOUR mind is controlled by the doctrine of demons.

Once again, brainless, here is ample PROOF to dispute your self-obsessed mis-interpretation of the ONE text YOU pervert for your own convoluted agenda.

"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him."

"It is the Spirit who gives life!"

"He who has the Son has THE life! He who does not have the Son does NOT have THE life!"

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.'" But this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

When Jesus was glorified, then those who had been looking forward to His appearance through faith, received the promise. That which was the mystery (Christ in you, the hope of glory).
Until that time they were kept from the promise so that apart from us they could not be made perfect.

"And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect."


"And we know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us."

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Sozo

YOU are a dumbass!
Sozo,

Is that the best you can do?

I guess since you have no answers you think that you must say something.
I answered your questions, and YOU are the only one who does not have an ounce of understanding.
You still refuse to deal with the words of the Lord Jesus when He tells a believer that He is saved.And He said those words before the Cross,so your idea that no one was saved before the Cross is contradicted by the words of the Lord Jesus Himself:

"Thy sins are forgiven...Thy faith hath saved thee"(Lk.7:48,50).
YOU cannot comprehend that because YOUR mind is controlled by the doctrine of demons.
We can all see who cannot comprehend the plain words of the Lord Jesus,and it is you.Here the Lord says that those who believed His words when He was walking the earth HAD everlasting life and would not come into judgment:

"He that heareth My word,and believeth on Him Who sent Me,hath everlasting life,and shall not come into judgment,but is passed from death unto life"(Jn.5:24).

According to your ideas these people were not yet saved.You just throw your reason to the wind and cling to your ridiculous ideas.
Once again, brainless, here is ample PROOF to dispute your self-obsessed mis-interpretation of the ONE text YOU pervert for your own convoluted agenda.
If I am misinterpreting these verses then why do you refuse to give us your interpretation of them?
"It is the Spirit who gives life!"
Yes,and let us see what the Lord Jesus said before the Cross in regard to those who believed on Him:

"And I give unto them eternal life,and they shall never perish"(Jn.10:28).

Notice that He does not say "I will give unto them eternal life,but instead He says that I give unto them eternal life.They received eternal life before the Cross.And He said that those who were believing His words hath eternal life,not "will have".

And we can see exactly how they were saved:

"It is the Spirit which giveth life...The words that I speak unto you,they are Spirit,and they are life"(Jn.6:63).

Despite these words of the Lord you continue to argue that the Spirit had not given them eternal life at that time.

Here are the words of the Lord Jesus to Zacchaeus,more words of His that you can close your ears to:

"This day is salvation come to this house...For the Son of Man is come seek and to save that which is lost"(Lk.19:9,10).

We can see that the followeing verse demonstrates the truth that men were indeed being given life before the Cross,as witnessed by the words of the Lord Jesus:

"The hour is coming,and now is,when the dead shall hear the Son of God,and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:25).

You have not provided one intelligent answer to any of these verses.All you do is insult people who do not agree with you in the hope that they will go away.

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

You have not provided one intelligent answer to any of these verses.All you do is insult people who do not agree with you in the hope that they will go away. You have ZERO integrity and clearly are a stupid jackass if you think that everyone who reads your posts does not obviously see that I have indeed refuted your weak arguments, yet you still make boldface lies as if everyone else is as blind as you are. You may think that you can plead insanity before the throne of God, but He will still proclaim that He never knew YOU.

I have been to your website, YOU are a cultist! YOU and your godless "Pastor" friends are liars and deceivers. YOUR entire house of cards will be burned up as dead works!

If I didn't know better, I'd swear that you are Jay Bartlett under another name, because YOU play the same immature games that he did when proven to be a false teacher.

[Jerry Shugart]

Sozo,

You still refuse to deal with the words of the Lord Jesus when He tells a believer that he is saved.And He said those words before the Cross,so your idea that no one was saved before the Cross is contradicted by the words of the Lord Jesus Himself:

"Thy sins are forgiven...Thy faith hath saved thee"(Lk.7:48,50).

Here are the words of the Lord Jesus to Zacchaeus,more words of His that you can close your ears to:

"This day is salvation come to this house...For the Son of Man is come seek and to save that which is lost"(Lk.19:9,10).

We can see that the following verse demonstrates the truth that men were indeed being given life before the Cross,as witnessed by the words of the Lord Jesus:

"The hour is coming,and now is,when the dead shall hear the Son of God,and they that hear shall live"(Jn.5:25).

All you do is ignore these verses and insult anyone who would dare disagree with your mistaken ideas.

[Poly]

Sozo, you're crude outbursts are getting really old. You need to tone it down.

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by Sozo

You're right, I apologize.

I tend to be a bit more absolute in my definitions at times. While it is true that those before the cross were "saved" in a sense, salvation is not realized apart from eternal life. I could have been more clear by stating that no one had eternal life before Jesus was glorified. The promise, proclaimed by Christ, was sure, but not yet realized.

Jerry,

Sozo said that those before the cross were "saved" yet they did not have eternal life.

The requirement of eternal life was this:

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. John 6:55 (KJV)
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. John 6:56 (KJV)

This meassage was veiled by His flesh and it was not comprehended until Paul revealed it.

No one was "born again" until after Christ was glorified.

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col. 1:18 (KJV)

Craig

[Sozo]

Originally posted by Poly

Sozo, you're crude outbursts are getting really old. You need to tone it down.

There is an easy solution.

Why is it so difficult for you guys to permenantly ban me?

I offer nothing of interest to the majority of people on this site. In all honesty, what real purpose do I serve here?

I will not tolerate those who blatanly pervert the gospel, and I have absolutely no ability to tone it down. The best thing for you to do is to permenantly shut me up. Please!

I have better things that I could be doing with my time, and I cannot force myself to stay away.

Do me, and yourself, a favor and push the button!

[HopeofGlory]

Originally posted by Sozo

I offer nothing of interest to the majority of people on this site. In all honesty, what real purpose do I serve here?



Your posts are very interesting and such as these make this site worth visiting. You are straight forward about what you believe and open with your feelings.

Don't push that button!!!

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by HopeofGlory

Jerry,

The requirement of eternal life was this:

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:54 (KJV)
For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. John 6:55 (KJV)
He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. John 6:56 (KJV)
Craig,

The believing Jews who bel