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View Full Version : Beware Of Iranian Nukes! The Sky Is Falling!


Morpheus
March 9th, 2005, 08:28 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/09/international/09weapons.html?th=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1110376809-4CsNTBSlmV+YRPkUzMw6dA

Data Is Lacking on Iran's Arms, U.S. Panel Says
By DOUGLAS JEHL and ERIC SCHMITT

Published: March 9, 2005


WASHINGTON, March 8 - A commission due to report to President Bush this month will describe American intelligence on Iran as inadequate to allow firm judgments about Iran's weapons programs, according to people who have been briefed on the panel's work.

The report comes as intelligence agencies prepare a new formal assessment on Iran, and follows a 14-month review by the panel, which Mr. Bush ordered last year to assess the quality of overall intelligence about the proliferation of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons.

The Bush administration has been issuing increasingly sharp warnings about what it says are Iran's efforts to build nuclear weapons. The warnings have been met with firm denials in Tehran, which says its nuclear program is intended purely for civilian purposes.

The most complete recent statement by American agencies about Iran and its weapons, in an unclassified report sent to Congress in November by Porter J. Goss, director of central intelligence, said Iran continued "to vigorously pursue indigenous programs to produce nuclear, chemical and biological weapons."

The International Atomic Energy Agency, which has been conducting inspections in Iran for two years, has said it has not found evidence of any weapons program. But the agency has also expressed skepticism about Iran's insistence that its nuclear activities are strictly civilian.

The nine-member bipartisan presidential panel, led by Laurence Silberman, a retired federal judge, and Charles S. Robb, a former governor and senator from Virginia, had unrestricted access to the most senior people and the most sensitive documents of the intelligence agencies.

In its report, the panel is also expected to be sharply critical of American intelligence on North Korea. But in interviews, people who have been briefed on the commission's deliberations and conclusions said they regarded the record on Iran as particularly worrisome.

One person who described the panel's deliberations and conclusions characterized American intelligence on Iran as "scandalous," given the importance and relative openness of the country, compared with such an extreme case as North Korea.

That person and others who have been briefed on the panel's work would not be more specific in describing the inadequacies. But former government officials who are experts on Iran say that while American intelligence agencies have devoted enormous resources to Iran since the Islamic revolution of 1979, they have had little success in the kinds of human spying necessary to understand Iranian decision-making.

Among the major setbacks, former intelligence officials have said, was the successful penetration in the late 1980's by Iranian authorities of the principal American spy network inside the country, which was being run from a C.I.A. station in Frankfurt. The arrests of reported American spies was known at the time, but the impact on American intelligence reverberated as late as the mid-1990's.

A spokesman for the commission, Carl Kropf, declined to comment about any conclusions reached.

The last National Intelligence Estimate on Iran was completed in 2001 and is now being reassessed, according to American intelligence officials. As a first step, the National Intelligence Council, which produces the estimates and reports to Mr. Goss, is expected this spring to circulate a classified update that will focus on Iran and its weapons.

In Congress, the Senate Intelligence Committee has recently begun its own review into the quality of intelligence on Iran, in what the Republican and Democratic leaders of the panel have described as an effort to pre-empt any repeat of the experience in Iraq, where prewar American assertions about illicit weapons proved to be mistaken. But Congressional officials say the language of some recent intelligence reports on Iran has included more caveats and qualifications than in the past, in what they described as the agencies' own response to the Iraq experience.

In testimony last month, intelligence officials from several agencies told Congress that they were convinced that Tehran wanted nuclear weapons, but also said the uncertainty played to Iran's advantage.

"The Iranians don't necessarily have to have a successful nuclear program in order to have the deterrent value," said Carol A. Rodley, the State Department's second-ranking top intelligence official. "They merely have to convince us, others and their neighbors that they do."

The commission's findings will also include recommendations for further structural changes among intelligence agencies, to build on the legislation Mr. Bush signed in December that sets up a new director of national intelligence. Among the proposals discussed but apparently rejected was the idea of consolidating the National Security Agency, the National Reconnaissance Office and the National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency into a single Defense Department operation that would integrate what are now divided responsibilities for satellite reconnaissance and eavesdropping operations.

The panel is to send a classified report to Mr. Bush by March 31. The panel is expected to issue an unclassified version at about the same time, but it is not clear whether the criticism of intelligence on Iran will be included in that public document, the people familiar with the panel's deliberations said.

In a television interview in February on Fox News, Vice President Dick Cheney described the work of the commission as "one of the most important things that's going forward today."

In the case of Iraq, a National Intelligence Estimate completed in October 2002 was among the assessments that expressed certainty that Baghdad possessed chemical and biological weapons and was rebuilding its nuclear program. Those assessments were wrong, and a report last year by the chief American weapons inspector found that Iraq had destroyed what remained of its illicit arsenal nearly a decade before the United States invasion.

A report last summer by the Senate committee concluded that the certainty of prewar assessments on Iraq had not been supported by the intelligence available at the time. At the Central Intelligence Agency, senior officials have defended the assessments, but they have also imposed new guidelines intended to reduce the prospect for failures.

Among those guidelines, an intelligence official said Tuesday, is a requirement that in producing future National Intelligence Estimates, the National Intelligence Council state more explicitly how much confidence it places on each judgment it makes. Those guidelines are being enforced in the updates on the Iranian nuclear program and in the revised National Intelligence Estimate on Iran, which will address issues like political stability as well. We have been once again bombarded with presidential sabre-rattling about Iran and their nuclear arms program. Iran flatly denies it. So what is the truth? Who knows? It appears nobody here does. We were told prior to the invasion of Iraq that they had huge stockpiles of WMD and ongoing programs of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. We were told that repeatedly and even given phoney evidence to try and back it up. from above article: "In the case of Iraq, a National Intelligence Estimate completed in October 2002 was among the assessments that expressed certainty that Baghdad possessed chemical and biological weapons and was rebuilding its nuclear program. Those assessments were wrong, and a report last year by the chief American weapons inspector found that Iraq had destroyed what remained of its illicit arsenal nearly a decade before the United States invasion" Several at the time, including weapons inspectors, refuted those claims. Now we hear it again, except this time it's Iran being targeted. According to the above article our intelligence community has no evidence confirming any of these assertions. So why is the president repeatedly, publicly making these unsubstantiated claims? Is it just to inflame the U.S. public once again?

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 09:10 AM
:Commie:

drRansom
March 9th, 2005, 09:54 AM
BillyBob=:devil:

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 10:05 AM
drRansom= :flamer:

On Fire
March 9th, 2005, 10:08 AM
drRansom=

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 10:11 AM
:chuckle:

Where's that other one, the side by side with Alice?

drRansom
March 9th, 2005, 10:14 AM
OnFire(InHell) = http://www.rense.com/1.imagesG/sheeple.jpg

I just love playing with you boys!

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Al JaRansom


I just love playing with you boys!


:shocked:


:flamer:

Morpheus
March 9th, 2005, 12:37 PM
So, once again On Fire aka:taoist:and :BillyBob: have no intelligent argument and nothing to refute what has been posted, so they try to cover for their incompetence with their version of humor and sarcasm. Well:nananana:. The point has been made, you have done nothing to adequately refute it. You have been measured and come up short.

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 12:40 PM
What point have you made other than you choose to believe and take sides with a terrorist nation over your own Country and President?

That sort of opinion doesn't deserve much response other than derision.

:mock: :Commie:

aikido7
March 9th, 2005, 12:49 PM
What point have you made other than you choose to believe and take sides with a terrorist nation over your own Country and President?
That sort of opinion doesn't deserve much response other than derision.

There is a difference between "taking sides with a terrorist nation" and pointing out stupidiy, greed and hypocrisy wherever and whenever it manifests.










I love and support my team, but I want that coach OUTTA THERE!!!!!!

Morpheus
March 9th, 2005, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

What point have you made other than you choose to believe and take sides with a terrorist nation over your own Country and President?

That sort of opinion doesn't deserve much response other than derision.

:mock: :Commie: It does when your own country is the #1 terrorist nation on the planet. You pride yourself on pointing out how the USSR, Iraq, China or some other nation controls their press, lies to their people and terrorizes the world. When it becomes obvious that your own government is doing those things you defend it and call it a good thing. When you gonna get your head out of the sand, or wherever else you have it stuck, and realize that you are living a lie? 1984 is here and you have become ever so a good citiizen and practitioner of doublespeak.

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Michael Moorepheus

It does when your own country is the #1 terrorist nation on the planet.

:darwinsm:

And you wonder why we don't waste our time responding to you!

:Commie:

Gerald
March 9th, 2005, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob
What point have you made other than you choose to believe and take sides with a terrorist nation over your own Country and President?
Terrorist nation: n.; any nation opposed to US policies and actions, but lacking the ability to hurt the US in a fight.

This is why Russia (who, as you recall, smuggled the whole of Saddam Hussein's immense and terrifying arsenal of WMDs into Syria) and China (who supplied North Korea with the technical expertise to develop nuclear weapons) are not considered terrorist nations...

:chuckle:

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 01:23 PM
Each unique terrorist country needs to be handled in a unique fashion.

Morpheus
March 9th, 2005, 01:27 PM
Terrorism as defined by the FBI, "the unlawful use of force against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a government, the civilian population or any segment thereof, in the furtherance of political or social objectives". This definition includes three elements: (1) Terrorist activities are illegal and involve the use of force. (2) The actions are intended to intimidate or coerce. (3) The actions are committed in support of political or social objectives. (FEMA-SS)

So how is it that we don't fit this definition?

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 01:30 PM
We are defending our nation against terrorists.

By your wacky definition, every military action can be considered terrorism.

Gerald
March 9th, 2005, 01:36 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob
Each unique terrorist country needs to be handled in a unique fashion.
You always fall back on that when I point out the terrorist nations that stand a better than even chance of handing the US its collective head in a fight.

So, if you were Large and In Charge, in what unique fashion would you handle Russia? In what unique fashion would you handle China?

Gerald
March 9th, 2005, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob
By your wacky definition, every military action can be considered terrorism. Um, that's the FBI's wacky definition, not Morph's.

Morpheus
March 9th, 2005, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

We are defending our nation against terrorists.

By your wacky definition, every military action can be considered terrorism. It's not MY wacky definition; it is the FBIs. And you have just made my point.

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 01:40 PM
Originally posted by Gerald

Um, that's the FBI's wacky definition, not Morph's.

Right, the wacky part is how Michael Moorepheus interprets it.

Morpheus
March 9th, 2005, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

Right, the wacky part is how Michael Moorepheus interprets it. So it is to be interpreted differently depending on who we're talking about. It's ok for us or one of our allies to do those things, but if it is someone else it is terrorism?

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 01:43 PM
The US doesn't fit your deranged description of a terrorist.

Gerald
March 9th, 2005, 01:47 PM
No answer for how you'd uniquely handle Russia and China, BB...?

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 01:50 PM
I certainly wouldn't invade them like we did Iraq.

drbrumley
March 9th, 2005, 01:50 PM
:aikido:

Morpheus
March 9th, 2005, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

The US doesn't fit your deranged description of a terrorist. Once again, it isn't my definition, it's the FBIs. And, yes, the US does fit the definition. We, along with Israel, were the two countries who voted against a UN resolution that called for a hault to international terrorism. We couldn't vote for it because several of our actions fit the UN definition of international terrorism, which was much the same as our own definition.

drbrumley
March 9th, 2005, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

I certainly wouldn't invade them like we did Iraq.

Of course we wouldn't. We would stand a chance of actually getting more than most of our men killed in combat. Loss of life in Iraq is child's play compared to what would happen against these two. China and Russia.

Gerald
March 9th, 2005, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob
I certainly wouldn't invade them like we did Iraq. Why not?

Certainly you can't believe the risk of retaliation is too great...


...Can you? :think:

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Michael Moorepheus

Once again, it isn't my definition, it's the FBIs. And, yes, the US does fit the definition. We, along with Israel, were the two countries who voted against a UN resolution that called for a hault to international terrorism. We couldn't vote for it because several of our actions fit the UN definition of international terrorism, which was much the same as our own definition.


:darwinsm:

Go smoke a joint and leave the defense of our country to people who are willing to defend your freedom, you friggin hippie peacenik! :Commie:

On Fire
March 9th, 2005, 02:16 PM
Let me see if I've got the score right....the US is afraid of Russia and China who may or may not be terrorit states which has nothing to do with the price of tea in China but we gotta let Gerald play; we should get out of Iraq because...well, just because; and anything that Morph and drRansom copy and past from left wing nut news services should be taken as gospel truth.

Does that about sum it up for you :Commie:s?

Gerald
March 9th, 2005, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by On Fire
Let me see if I've got the score right....the US is afraid of Russia and China who may or may not be terrorist states..."May or may not", my eye! Russia and China are in the best position to put some serious hurt on the US, and can do so anytime they want.

Both countries have an established record of opposing the US, or of backing regimes that do.

The Cold War didn't end with the fall of the USSR, the way the game is played just changed.

...we should get out of Iraq because...Well, as long as you don't accuse me of advocating that. There's money aplenty to be made over there, sheep aplenty to be fleeced.

BTW, OF, I'll play where I want, when I want, and you won't do a thing about it! HAW HAW HAW!!!

:: pokes a belligerent finger into On Fire's chest at each italicized word, then laughs like a villain in a Jack Chick tract ::

:devil: ;) :chuckle:

drRansom
March 9th, 2005, 02:51 PM
Originally posted by On Fire

...and anything that Morph and drRansom copy and past from left wing nut news services should be taken as gospel truth.


You neocons are so easy to refute. You're soooo pathetic.

On the thread I just posted about the US soldier admitting that the Saddam capture was staged, the article in question is from mainstream news. UPI to be exact.

Morpheus
March 9th, 2005, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by On Fire

Let me see if I've got the score right....the US is afraid of Russia and China who may or may not be terrorit states which has nothing to do with the price of tea in China but we gotta let Gerald play; we should get out of Iraq because...well, just because; and anything that Morph and drRansom copy and past from left wing nut news services should be taken as gospel truth.

Does that about sum it up for you :Commie:s? Just because it doesn't come from Rush doesn't make it left wing. It could be conservative and be to the left of him. So who do you quote?

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by drRansom

You neocons are so easy to refute. You're soooo pathetic.

On the thread I just posted about the US soldier admitting that the Saddam capture was staged, the article in question is from mainstream news. UPI to be exact.

So?

drRansom
March 9th, 2005, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

So?

So WHAT???

Go back and read the CONTEXT of what OnFire said and then my comment to him. Shouldn't be too hard.

BillyBob
March 9th, 2005, 08:55 PM
So?

drRansom
March 9th, 2005, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by BillyBob

So?

How old are you? Seriously.

On Fire
March 10th, 2005, 06:30 AM
Go ask Alice.

Gerald
March 10th, 2005, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob
So? Well, UPI is wholly owned by Rev. Sun Myung Moon, and he's hardly a shill for liberalism...

BillyBob
March 10th, 2005, 09:40 AM
Originally posted by Gerald

Well, UPI is wholly owned by Rev. Sun Myung Moon, and he's hardly a shill for liberalism...

Liberalism, Moonyism, same thing.

Gerald
March 10th, 2005, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by BillyBob
Liberalism, Moonyism, same thing. You might want to talk to some of the heavy hitters in the Republican Party and the Bush Administration about that oversight then, because they're thick as thieves with the guy...

BTW, I take it you saw my definition of a "swell person"...? :chuckle: